https://www.listennotes.com/e/d0fd058370614af69a98631b6dc4cdd8

Early in my career, I'd spend hours alone in the film room thinking I was being productive. But the truth was I had no idea what I was doing. I was just going through the motions. That's what finance leaders tell me. They're frustrated because they waste hours manually tracking expenses and reconciling statements when they should be focusing on driving their business forward. Be honest with me, how much of your time is spent on high value work? For many finance teams it's less than 20%. But you can change that right now with Ramp. Ramp is a free corporate card that handles all the tedious financial operations automatically so your finance team can focus on what actually moves the needle. One CFO told me they cut their month end close from five days to one. It's no surprise over 25,000 businesses trust ramp, including Shopify, CBRE and Boys and Girls Club of America. Don't waste any more time going through the motions. Check out ramp@ramp.com GG and for glue guys listeners, Ramp is offering metal cards for the next 30 days. Just go to ramp.com gigi cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. Tom Brady's last year in New England. The man has won what, five or six Super Bowls at this point? In the very front of his playbook he has written himself in all caps, you are the man.

It reveals this.

He's fucking Tom Brady. This is still his tools to counteract all this shit that we still deal with. Hi fellas. I'm pumped for this week's guest. A friend of mine who I've known quite a while. He covered me when I played. Now I get to work with him at ESPN. He's been a senior writer since 2000. New York Times Best selling author. He has his brand new book coming out this fall which we were lucky enough to get a forward copy of and discuss with him that's called American A Biography of the Quarterback comes out on September 9th. Can't wait to chat with him. And it's Seth Wickersham. First off, Seth, man, I can't thank you enough for coming on with us. I feel like honestly you were kind enough to share your book with us that your new book before its release and reading the whole thing, I don't know, I feel like these are all things that crazy enough that we talk about all the time that are like wrapped up in this, right? We often, we do talk about QBs, obviously with me being on the show, but we do talk a lot about parenting and there's a lot of Parenting in this book, a topic that, I guess as I read it, that like, just intrigued me was the duality of, like, you. You obviously go back and the Mannings are a key focus of this, right? And like Arch's story and certainly you touch on. On all the Mannings, but, you know, the fact that that. And also Elway plays a. A prominent role. But these are both guys that Eli Manning and. And, you know, John both had the audacity, right, like when coming out and being the number one picks in the draft to pull a crazy stunt, right? Like something that we don't see in sports very often. They're like, listen, they. They came out and played hardball and demanded trades and got them right, and it worked. They've both gone on to be hall of Fame careers. Their dads were both heavily involved in those, you know, kind of proceedings and decisions. And then, you know, you jump forward with Caleb Williams, right, And him and his dad, Carl, and you got such great access there. And he's obviously so early into his career, but I just can't help but feel like, you know, Carl, for whatever reason at this point, seems to be villainized. You know, he's the dad that, like, you know, overstepped his boundaries and is overbearing. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, certainly for me, I can't help but think that I would have done and been considering a lot of the same things. We just posted an episode two weeks ago about players getting equity, right? And so should get equity. And his dad had the same thought process. We've talked about how the draft process in a lot of ways is un American, right? Like there's no other industry that allows for this. And yet in pro sports, it happens. And, you know, you get to go to sometimes a disaster of an organization, right? Carl trying to look out for his son, you know, and again, I. I read it and I was just like, these are. These were amazing things that I think he had the audacity to think about and try, you know, they obviously didn't happen, but for whatever reason, I just think that, you know, it seems to have come up with a negative view of him. I don't know if you shared that sentiment. I don't know.

My goal with the book was to tell, you know, almost every quarterback story through the characters that I tried to pick. And I tried to pick the best stories out of those characters that I. And, you know, some of the themes that I think emerge, you know, are the role of the quarterback dad. And I know that we, you Know, as a society, we kind of recoil when that comes up. But, you know, say what you want about some of these tactics, like there's a purpose behind it. And, you know, I think throughout the book, through the characters, you see some examples of, you know, pretty tightly controlling, you know, parenting, you know, with, you know, with the dad and his quarterback. I think you see, you know, you know, examples of dads trying to take control of their quarterbacks, you know, their son's careers, you know, with a bigger picture in mind. But, you know, I tried to pick stories that talk to each other. And so you have, you know, John Elway and you have Eli Manning and you have Caleb Williams, who's kind of going through the same thing that they went through where he was having very reasonable doubts about the team that was going to pick him. And I mean, you know, Alex, you and I have talked about it at length about, you know, the beginning of your career and, you know, the pressure that was on you and, you know, how much of your career was out of your hands and was just because of the team that drafted you. And so when I was talking to Carl, as he was actively thinking about this, and Caleb, you know, when they were actively thinking about, you know, what are our options? Do we have any options? First of all, I found them both to be really endearing with that because I understood where they were coming from with it. And obviously they didn't do what the always did, which was make a situation so untenable that the team had no choice but to trade him. But it's a fascinating thing, and I'm glad you picked up on that, because the parenting aspect of this journey is one that I really tried to go deep on, because it's a dangerous journey, as, you know, it can be. There's very little infrastructure. And, you know, even though dads can be pains at times to college coaches or even to pro coaches, you know, they. Quarterbacks need people looking out for them.

But that's. That's so, like, funny you say that, Seth. Like, we're talking about, like, professional athletics, right? Like, you know, you don't. Your parent doesn't. Your. Your parents go into your editor's house and say, seth should get a better position. He should get a better position. And, you know, and ESPN or, you know, wherever, you know, no, like, being a pro, you're on your own. And you know, in. In professional sports, like, look, no one gives young guys any. Any room for. For slack, right? And the prevailing thought is like, look, I went through it. You have to Go through it. You know, when I was a rookie, I called out the veterans for the Memphis Grizzlies. We're a bad team. And I said, look, there's no. There's no leadership. No one's teaching us how to. How to be a pro. And they looked at me and said, dude, you gotta figure it by yourself. You gotta figure out your own. You're on your own, right? Like, why is it. Why is this different? Why should it be different for a quarterback?

Shane, we talk all the time on how, like, what is it?

The.

The. That boy's, like, frontal cortex is not fully developed to, like, Dude, I was 20. I was 20. Caleb, was he 21 years old? And you're like, can you. I. I can't help but think, like.

By the way, David Jaeger, if he's listening right now, is really pissed about you sticking with the prefrontal cortex not being fully developed. He's like, no, that's not the reason that they act this way. 10 to 25. All they care about is status and respect.

Whatever. You get my gist. You get the gist. You know what? But, like, Shane and you, I've talked about the pro sports in some way. These leagues are like machines, right? Like, and if you're lucky enough, you, like, jump on the machine and try to keep up for as long as you can, and then it, like, spits you out. And I think back to, like, the uniqueness of being a top pick. And again, you're scared to death. Like, you just don't even know what you don't know. And to have the audacity, to try to take some level of control, I think is really interesting. And I look back and, like, I would. I never had. You just didn't even have the awareness or the audacity and courage to try and maybe do some of this, to try and maybe steer it a little bit to put yourself in a better situation. And I think if I could go back, like, these are fair thoughts to have. These are fair discussions to have, I think, in hindsight.

And I also think, though, that, like, Shane's right. There's a limit to, like, you know, how far the dad should go. I mean, obviously, like, one of the interesting things that Caleb Williams did was that he didn't sign with an agent. Like, his dad was kind of his agent. And so that's, you know, that was a little atypical different type of setup now than obviously, when Alex came into the league with the collective bargaining agreement. But, you know, I do think that, look there's, you see it a lot in the book. I mean, there's moments where, you know, one of the quarterback dads, at one point, I'm at a high school game with him and I mean, he is on the verge of getting into a fight with somebody else in the stands who, you know, was talking, who said something, you know, about his son who was out there playing quarterback. And I mean, you know, it can be. I was at Elite 11 with them and there was, there was a quarterback who was leaving the field and his dad lit into him on the field in front of everybody. What the RCD blues thinking versus. And so, you know, you know, there's a fine line. I, you know, I go back in a lot of ways. You know, I know you guys talk about Tom Brady a lot. I mean, you know, I wrote a book on the Patriots a couple of years ago and essentially it was a book about, about Tom. And you know, when he was at Michigan and he was buried on the depth chart, you know, he was a whiner and he was, you know, think, you know, he went to this counselor named Greg Hardin, who died a year ago. Great, great guy. And you know, he said, I, you know, my dad tells me I should transfer to Cal. I'm going to transfer. I'm buried here on the depth chart. Think of all the responses that one could give to Tom Brady at that moment. You know, please don't go, Tom. You need to stick it out. Greg Hardin started laughing and he goes, you want to leave, go ahead. You haven't done shit here anyway. Like, no one's going to, no one's going to care if you leave. And I think that like, you know, that presence in someone's life really ignited a competitive spirit in him that I think helped lay the groundwork for who, you know, Tom Brady became. And you know, I think there's, you guys know better than I do. But, you know, do those people exist in every athletic, you know, department? Do they exist in every pro team? I don't think so.

See, but I also think, okay, so I would, I had a slightly different reaction to that. And I'm curious what you guys think. I think that, look, if in many ways becoming a multi, you know, a 10 year plus NFL quarterback is like the be all end all because you make life changing money, you're identified as a quarterback the rest of your career, you can go do things afterwards, right? So like, you can imagine why somebody would say, I got to put my hands on this and help control it, you know, because the difference you playing three years versus 10 years is life changing. Dollars and reputation, whatever, right? So I actually get that. I think the thing though that I would say is like again, depending on your duration, like what are you preparing this person for? And what I mean by that is like, look like Alex, you have a whole life after your NFL career is done. A whole life, right? And you know, if you're trying to prepare yourself to like live a life forever, it's not just like get into the right situation as, you know, a NFL quarterback. Right. It's like be somebody who can deal with shit. And so my only point to me is I think a lot of your life truly is, is better today because you had to have really things going on in your first five or six years. You are better prepared for life from 40 to 80 because you didn't fix the situation early. I really believe that like, you know, the fact that you learned you could get through that. And so the only thing for me that does come on this is like, I think my nature would be like, let me try and help and fix, let me try and make sure that they get into the right situation. It's really important. But you, you don't always think through the counterfactual of like you are a stronger person because of five coordinators in five years. Right. You actually have some other things that came about because of that. And it's just, it's easy to understand what the snowplow path looks like. It's not easy to know what the value is of the path of you walking through the snow, you know.

Yeah, I guess I, I, I don't disagree with you. I guess I don't view it, I mean, in this, in this case, no dad's going to snowplow the NFL. Like, it's just, yeah, you know, it's.

A road flow removal.

But I do think the whole idea of, you know, yeah. Of helping counsel through this, of having some of these talks like, you know, maybe you do have some more leverage than you think, you know, for Caleb, for Caleb that was identified as kind of one of these generational type talents, you know, that he was in the eyes of a, you know, he kind of in that tier of an Elway and a, you know, a Luck and a Manning that he could potentially, he maybe did have more options and he obviously didn't elect to, to try and do that. But I, again, I just think that the idea of, I don't fault it at all.

My point, Alex, is not that I fault it at all. It's Actually, I. Look, you know, of. Of us, we're always. We laugh about this. I love capitalism. I love it. I think it's an amazing system. And my point of, like, if you have leverage, it doesn't matter how things were done before. It matters. What's the right answer? You know, there, like, who cares if the NFL does it a certain way? If you have the leverage, like, that's cool. I think there's a difference on, like, okay, well, like, who identifies that you have the leverage? What role are you playing versus the people around you playing? And like, it's a very fine line, as you've noted, which is sort of like, you know, there's a lot of stories of dads that are too involved, you know what I'm saying? And, like, it's just a tricky balance, you know, to get right.

Yeah, totally. And I think. Final thought on that. The cool thing looking back on it was obviously the stories of how close John and Jack Elway are. Right? Like, how close Eli and Archie are. And obviously time will tell, I think obviously with Caleb and Carl. I guess I probably should have backed up. I feel like the first appropriate question for you, Seth, was actually like, why the subject matter? Like, why quarterbacks? How long have you been brewing on this? Funny. Also because we were lucky enough, we had Michael Lewis on, you know, several. Several months back, and he floated this kind of same thing that he had been thinking about this quarterback subject for a long time, and it did kind of fascinate him. He kind of obviously told us that he didn't really figure out where and how to attack it. So, like, YQBs, and why go at it from this angle of. Of telling all these different stories?

Yeah, and I met with Michael. You know, he's a great guy. You know, I met with him to like, talk about, you know, this at the very early stages, to just try to, like, kind of spitball ideas. I mean, it comes from, like, having failed. And, you know, I. I made quarterback my identity when I was, you know, in some very. And that's one of the interesting things about, I think, quarterback is that, like, you know, you don't play it. You are one, and you wear all these different. And when. And when you do that, you're wearing all these different hats. You know, you signed up to do all these things that really no other job in sports, certainly American sports has to do. And, you know, my early years in high school, I was, you know, determined to be quarterback. I started on jv. I had some good games. I had some Bad games. But I was just like, you know, it was, it was, I was obsessed. And when I first got reps on varsity, you know, it was like something broke down. And, you know, Peyton Manning and I talked about it a little bit. He talked about when he was a rookie in the NFL, he, he thought defenses were so much faster than in college. And so what he did was he played faster. And what he later realized you need to do is kind of respect their speed, but let them play, you know, at their speed. And you do your things at your speed. And in my own little way in Anchorage, Alaska, you know, like some wiring broke down in that moment where, you know, things I committed to muscle memory all of a sudden weren't working. And so I think that, like, you know, I got into this professionally. You know, I was hired at ESPN magazine when I graduated from college. Obviously I spent some time with you, you know, back during one of the hardest years of your life. And I've just always been fascinated with, you know, what it means to do this job at every level, from high school to college to rookie NFL and then, you know, what's it like to be a legend in retirement. I think that, like a lot of the things and the traits and the ways you have to hardwire yourself to survive, you know, this winnowing from 16,000 starting quarterbacks in high school to 32 in the NFL to, you know, 12 good ones to four great ones at any time. You know, I think that a lot of that is kind of fundamentally at odds with, you know, being content away from the game. And so those are the questions that I was trying to pursue.

Being normal. Seth, you can say it. You know, Alex can. You can't represent his brother. Just, that's, you know, you're just not normal when you're fighting those odds. So was this book a, was this book therapeutic for you or was it a recognition?

Well, it was interesting because like when I, when I played quarterback, you know, I had, I had some good games and I had this one chance, you know, to lead a game winning drive. And like, all quarterbacks love doing that because in a weird way, I mean, Alex can speak to it, but it's like you feel liberated, like you're kind of not, you know, doing what the coaches tell you to do. And if the ball is kind of in your hands. And we, we moved to midfield and I moved left and I dropped back, I started going left and I had one receiver there and he was pretty well covered. And my coach even came to the sideline and he was waving at me to throw him the ball out of bounds. And I, you know, a pass that needed to be low and outside was high and inside and it was intercepted. And you know, I was just distraught and I, you know, you become a quarterback in some ways because you want to stand out. And in that moment I just wanted to blend in and disappear. And I remember my center was next to me and he put my, his hand on my helmet, you know, when I had my head down. And I met up with him later in the book, you know, we just met up for random drinks one night as I was doing the book. And like, you know, I've been to like countless Springsteen concerts and I understand the irony, but I had to go there and like, go to the glory days and say like, you know, out of nowhere I was like, why do you think I didn't make it? You know, and his answer was really, his answer allowed, you know, I mean, his answer, what he said allowed me to kind of forgive that 16 year old boy who I just, I couldn't forgive.

What did he say? Or should we? Because I haven't gotten to that part in the book yet.

They couldn't block for you, right?

Yeah, they couldn't block. Yeah, that's what he said. And whether that was true or not, it just meant so much because it was like I had just. As you guys know, it's like you beat yourself up quite a bit because even though you can intellectually understand that this is a team game and that there are other factors at play, you're constantly wondering what you could have done differently.

Can I tell you something? This is so. This is such a digression, but I think it's actually quite similar in many ways. So the guy who used to run Sequoia is this guy Douglioni who's like a. He's known to be a very tough leader. Okay. And you know, I love Doug, he's an amazing guy, but, you know, he's known to be tough. And he told me one time that he actually went to a couple of the. Apparently Sequoia tried to start, you know, some different businesses at different points early on. And some people were there and they didn't make it, you know, and Doug was the one who'd asked them to leave. And many years later he just went and saw a couple of them on his own. I just want to let you know, you know, that wasn't your fault. Like, I just, we weren't ready for. To do. We didn't even know what we Wanted, you know, so it wasn't you.

It was that goodwill. It was that goodwill hunting moment, you know. Totally, totally.

And similar reaction of like those guys apparently cried, you know, and when he told them. And these are like, you know, real business people who have like done some good stuff in their careers, but it was just sort of like they had, they'd held on to something of like, oh, I failed at this thing. And this guy kind of going up to him being like, no, like there wasn't something you could do was something that allowed him to let that go. Which is just very interesting as I just. When you were talking about your center.

And you and you know, you had.

This awesome career, but the fact that you were still holding on to it, it kind of tells you that. I wonder if there's other people in any of our lives who like, you could do that for. Is there somebody that any of us have had that you could go and help, let them release something that maybe they're holding on to.

That's interesting. I mean, we kind of touched on this earlier, but like, there's this unbelievable winnowing that happens in all professional sports. But I really zeroed in on it with quarterback. And I'd be curious for you guys and Shane to weigh in on this too. I mean, you know, what do you think it takes to survive? I mean, what does it take from being one of the 16,000 high school quarterbacks to being one of the 32 in the NFL starting and then, you know, one of the better ones.

Irrationality. I mean, that really is the differentiator. What are you willing to do? Next guy won't. Obviously you have to have some physical skills and some talents that you develop along the way. But look, I play with a lot of guys who are a lot better than me that you've never heard of. And it's, it's just something deep, deep, deep, deep inside that. It sounds cliche, but it says, I'm, I'm gonna make it. I'm, I'm burning the ships. It's not a. It's not. It'd be nice to be a professional athlete. It's. No, I'm going to be a professional athlete. I don't know about the next guy. And so that's probably the best way I can say it.

I kind of agree. I almost, it's almost like stubbornness. I think that there, there's a level of stubbornness, obviously a ton of luck also. Let's be very clear, right? Like, a lot of things have to happen. Timing. I Mean, I. I just can't help but think. You just said it, Seth. You were like, talking about how you're, you know, that instant, your chance on varsity idea of like, forgetting how to play, right? And like, just, it's. It's big, the lights, the moment. And I can't help but like, reading in the book. And I'd always known this about Tom. Tom didn't start as a freshman at Sarah High School, right? Like, I live in the Bay Area. Sarah High is like big, big powerhouse. He didn't start on his freshman football team. So his first time starting as a sophomore on jv, and him going to his dad, who he's incredibly close with, and telling his dad that he forgot how to play. I forgot how to throw.

It was before his first game.

Before his first game. I forgot how to throw, right? And his dad's like, trying to calm him down in this situation. How do you handle that? And I think two things. One, obviously think about how incredibly normal this is. Like, I can remember my very first throw on varsity as well. Like, I got pulled up for playoffs my sophomore year. And I remember in practice, like, throwing slants to varsity receivers and like, I was scared shitless, right? Like, just scared shitless.

Were you more scared throwing those varsity, those varsity receivers?

Like, same feeling. It didn't change. It was the exact same. And I can't help but think that, like, flash forward and I, like, again, there were so many, there's so many gems in the book, but you obviously have spent a lot of time with the New England Patriots and Tom Brady, you know, obviously your previous book about them. But I couldn't. I loved that, like, Tom Brady's last year in New England. The man has won, what, five or six Super Bowls at this point, maybe the greatest player of all time. That in the very front of his playbook, he has written himself in all caps, these like, self affirmations, like, you are the man. You were built for this, right? Like, you, you love the big moments, right? Like, he's written a series of these things that he reads to himself every day. He's fucking Tom Brady, right? Like, this is still his tools to counteract all this shit that we still deal with.

The vulnerability and the doubt. And I remember I was once in Brady's, and that was before his last super bowl in New England, so he had already won five. That was the night before he wrote that in his playbook. And, you know, I once was with Brady and I said, you know, do you ever feel doubt? And he goes, no. And I, you know, I. I knew that he wasn't telling the truth. And yet, you know, one of the things I write about in the book is how quarterbacks, especially in the NFL, you know, you have to get yourself to a place by game time where doubt cannot creep in. And you've been really upfront with, like, the vulnerability of that. And Steve Young has, too.

Yeah.

And then you have people like Elway, you know, who were terrified when he goes to Granada Hills High School and they think he's the next Joe Namath, and he's like, how am I going to do this? And I thought that, that, that doubt and how people deal with it, whether they, you know, go to social media now, whether they take it to, you know, a higher power, whether they drink, you know, what. Whether they womanize, however, what. All these. These mechanisms that people have to create to survive in this fragile ecosystem. Like, our Andrew Luck once told me that he. He once saw that Peyton Manning had, like, an entire ecosystem of helpers. He had assistants, he had a chef. He had all these people. And Andrew, of course, you know, didn't even have a smartphone for most of his career. I mean, he. As his. As his notoriety increased, he shrunk his world. And he was like, is that what I need to be great? You know, there is no roadmap. And it's one of the things that. Especially when I talk to you for the book and, you know, we had spent that time about 15 years ago when you were that complete mindfuck of your shoulder injury where, you know, it's like, where are the adults to help you through that? And that's one of the things that you and I talked about. And, you know, you had that later in your career with Andy Reid where you had, like, an adult who could have. He had been through this. And, you know, very few quarterbacks, I think, have that, especially coming to the league with the team they're drafted by, have that. That person who can kind of, like, help lead, block for them, for lack of a better phrase.

But talk about, like, you also have to have a healthy, like, respect and fear of, like, you just can't, like, cast all doubt to the side. Like, look, you know, I. I believed in myself as a professional basketball player, but guess what? Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, those guys were animals. Like, so I knew it didn't matter how much I doubted myself or had faith in myself. Like, you still had to contend with the best in the world. So how do you balance that, that. That fear, the respect of the game of, you know, obviously the consequence, the physical, physical consequence with eliminating that doubt.

I think that talking quarterback with Alex and talking quarterback with Steve Young, especially because they can articulate this stuff in a way that few guys do or really even want to. And I think that like, that's one of the things that I really enjoyed in this process was you talk quarterback with Alex Smith or Steve Young and you almost feel like it's attainable, you know what I mean? You're like, okay, I'm getting it. You know, I felt that. Of course, you know, and then of course, Steve Young, you know, is a generational athlete who had some real doubt. I mean, when he was, he was at BYU, you know, which in the 80s was like the greatest passing college in college sports. He couldn't throw, like he really didn't know how to, how to throw a football. And he was Jim McMahon's backup, who of course Jim McMahon had, you know, some confidence and then some. And he, they rode home together after one game in college and Steve was looking at the radio station that Jim McMahon was listening to because he was like, you know, a quarterback like Jim McMahon must be listening to some station that's not available to us mere mortals. And you know, he tells stories like this and you're like, oh my God, Steve. Yes. And then you're like, wait a second, you're one of those immortals, Steve?

Yeah. Like, hey Alex, can I ask you a question about this? When you read the book, you know, like Shane said, it's called American Kings, like you kind of get a gist for that at the beginning of like how reverential, you know, the book can be for these guys. Do you feel like seen of like, oh, somebody gets that this is really unique and different and like, man, I had this job that was really crazy. Or like I know you well enough to know or do you feel like a little embarrassed of like, dude, I was playing a game, like, why are you, why is it so central? Like, what is your reaction when you, when you read the book?

No, I honestly, I think there's like, I guess as I read it there were so many things that came back to me, like from, from the very beginning on, it made me really recollect on like why I even wanted to play quarterback for some reason. And quarterback did have this like mystery around it. And I can remember being a nine year old kid. My brother was the starting quarterback on the varsity football team. He's eight years older than me. Okay, so I'm the nine year old. I'm with all the other little brothers in the far corner of the end zone. I thought the light. It was a Friday night game. Like, the lights are on. The team was great. Like, I thought this was, like, the end all to be the varsity quarterback. And I remember dreaming about. And we're playing our. The little brothers are, like, playing their own game right in the far corner of the end zone, imagining one day that they could maybe be on that field, be doing that. And again, the fact that, like, my older brother, who, you know, again, I wanted. I walked like him, I talked like him, I dressed like him, like, you know, again. And he played quarterback and I wanted to be quarterback. And there was this, like, mystery wrapped up in it. And then, like, the way Seth, like, gets to that. Yeah, like, I identified with that now again, Like, I just. I don't know why. I was lucky enough that I kept going. I kept playing. Like, I fell into Urban Meyer at Utah and this revolutionary offense. Somehow I was the freaking number one pick. Like, and then have this, you know, really long career. But there's also, like, times, you know, it in the book, like, when Caleb talks about being the number one pick and not knowing how to watch film. And this turned into, like, a thing, right? Like, and there are people out there that I couldn't believe. How can you be. How can you not know how to watch film? And I've told you guys this a thousand times. I had no clue what I was doing in there. Right, Right. Like, not a clue. And like, again, I think to. I've talked about doubt and, like, this experience. And again, I think things that we all deal with and Seth, I think you hit on it that there are all these different tools. Doubt is universal. Fear is universal. But, like, how you deal with it and move past it is what I think makes things unique. And like Tom Brady and writing down the aphorisms, right? And like, I do think religion. We've talked about this and you do have a great section in there about, you know, these guys that, like, have really strong space, and I think it helps them move past the doubt and, like, let go. Andrew Luck had to take himself, like, in the retirement piece that you cover with him. Like, he talks about not loving, where he had to take himself to, like, this superhero status, right? Like that I had to be this, like, strong superhero. And again, the loneliness, like, I identify with that. So. And then now the retirement, right? Like, this is a piece that I'm living and trying to navigate myself to read about these old guys, obviously, all of them, you Know, these are gold jacket guys that are navigating the ego of what made them great and trying to move beyond it. So, yeah, I mean, again, it is to even your point, Ravi, it's like it is more of a life thing at the very beginning. Right. Like, it doesn't just end when you stop playing. Seth, obviously, I think even inherently, that's why you, you know, you said you wrote the book, right? Like you were a quarterback. So I don't know, I mean, a lot, a lot there, but like, definitely all these moments, they were like these touch points throughout my life that this hit on. Right. Made me reflect and think about.

Yeah. And I mean, I'm glad to hear that because, you know, I was trying to write the book for anyone who's wondered about playing quarterback. Played it, you know, thought about it for all the ex quarterbacks, all of us out here, but. And I was curious what you guys would think about this because, you know, especially at the end when you're looking at some of these legends in retirement, you know, the capacity for empathy with them is very underdeveloped, let's just put it that way. You know, you have, you have this moment where, where John Elway's son is playing quarterback. A. An Elway in Denver, playing quarterback, wearing number seven. And Elway was calling, was the offensive coordinator for his son. And his son is a good player, good enough to play at Arizona State. But he was like, just feeling so much pressure. And Elway, of all people, Elway was the first number one quarterback, you know, top best player in the nation as a high school quarterback, number one pick in the draft, first over, first ballot hall of Famer. He was the first one to do that. And you would think of all people, he would know something about, like, the pressure of living up to expectations. And he told me, he's like, I literally, I didn't care. Like, he just, you know, my answer to him was, just go compete. And you know, when I talk about that type of mentality that helps you make it through this really tough environment, you know, in this, this again, the winnowing that I come back to this filtering, you know, it's. How compatible is that with life, you know, outside of playing, you know, professional sports? Look at Tom Brady. I mean, he had the greatest Runway, you know, to retirement that any quarterback could ever ask for. I mean, he had a long career. He ended on his terms. He won everything you could possibly win. He had gigs lined up, you know, as he was getting ready to exit years beforehand, so that he knew that, you know, when he walked away, he would be walking into, you know, all of these different things. And even he says, you know, that it was like, you know, being, you know, in a dryer where you're just bouncing around everywhere. And I think that it's hard because like Sean Payton told me, he's like, you know, when you have a quarterback, everyone's. Everyone on the team is getting on the airplane and everyone except the quarterback goes right, the quarterbacks go left, and then, you know, the rest of your life, you're the one going right.

Well, I think that's also like inherent in the position, by the way I think of the mystery of the quarterback. Like, you know, especially on a football team. Everything else, right? Like there's five linemen and oftentimes a bunch of them are kind of interchangeable. There's like three or four receivers, right? And they all are out there and multiple running backs and multiple tight ends and they sub in and out of a game and same thing on defense, right? Like the guy's take breaks and they. No one plays every snap. There's one position that plays every snap in football, right? And they're like, you, you. There is no. You're the starting quarterback or you, like you said it, you're the backup, right? Like, it just is. It's so different. And I think that adds to this in the football setting, right? Like, because every other position group is kind of a unit and they do things together and work together. And I've been in a lot of QB rooms where I've talked about these guys. Like, the experience is so different because I've been in some. That man, it's. It's sharp elbows and cutthroat and you can't trust the guy next to you because he's not rooting for you at all, right? And by nature of. Because there can only be one, right? Like there's only one guy, which is weird. And I don't know why that ever developed like that, you know, that it is the only position where you can't sub in and out, you know.

Well, the only thing is it's interesting. I was just thinking about your guys's points on retirement. We've talked about this in the past past of like sports or this microcosm for life. Like you just hit it earlier, you know, of like people, you know, it's not the same thing, but if a CEO steps down, it's hard for them when they go into retirement. Of like, okay, what do I do now? You know, the, the meeting Used to start when I walked in, the meeting ended when I left. Now all of a sudden, my calendar is empty. Like, athletes have to deal with it sooner. And then I think quarterbacks, probably within that, have an extreme version of it, which is like, you know, you had all this fanfare, all this, all these people relying on you, honestly. And then all of a sudden, it changes. And it changes at a young age and it's you. In order to, like. Steve Young talked about this, actually, on our podcast. It's like, you know, he said that he had to run to the next thing. He had to leave the other thing behind. He had to go and be like, I have to run towards this other thing, because nothing is going to be like the thing I had. So I have to just, like, do something new. And so one of the things I took from the book also was, like, the intensity of the experience, you know, for the quarterback makes it amazing, but it also makes it really hard to leave, you know, or really hard when it's done, because, like, what do you do to replicate the intensity of that, of people relying on you to that level, you know, and the adulation you get, you know, at that level. And I think it's just. It. It. It comes back to me all the time of, like, sports really are this, like, intense recreation of your life, but just in such a smaller time period. And I'll tell you guys, like, listen, like, I love professional sports. I mean, I love. I'm like, a huge fan. All this stuff, it is kind of bizarre when you, like, really think about it, like, the level of centrality it plays relative to any other profession. Like, you guys, when you guys were playing, would talk about it. Like, nobody could, like, talk to you on game day. Like, it was fully expected that you, like, just wouldn't be doing anything else. Like, that's really not, like. Like the way any other professions are. And, like, again, like, I'm, like, a huge fan, but, like, you could plausibly argue that some people have professions that are slightly more important, like an emergency room doctor or something. But, like, I don't know, you can, like, talk to an emergency room doctor before they go to the hospital. And it's just amazing, like, when you think about the role. That's what I'm saying, this microcosm for life that sports end up having, because we just accept that, like, you can't talk to a quarterback the day of the game, but you can talk to, like, an ER doctor. You know, some kid probably can, like, still text his mom who's an ER doctor if they like, have a problem during her shift.

You know, I think the book A lot of Ways is about like American fame. Like, how did this weird job become, you know, so. So cherished and celebrated and, you know, I would like to get your guys thoughts on this. But, you know, one of the characters I follow is. Is a high school quarterback. He's now at lsu named Colin Hurley. And he just wanted to be the youngest with everything. I mean, the track could not be fast enough for him. He entered college. You know, I think that he was 17 years old when he entered LSU. I mean, everything had to be on a fast track for him. And you know, he. It's public. I mean, he got into a serious car accident where he ran his car into a tree off campus at LSU at 3am last January. You know, I write about him in the icu. Fortunately, you know, he not only survived but, you know, made a full recovery, but like, the pressure on kids that, you know, it's, It. It is just intensifying because we're so. We're obsessed as a culture, I think, with like spotting genius in. In its infancy. And you guys talk about this a lot where you can't actually, like, that's. That's. That's never gonna work. Because what made Tom Brady great wasn't what he was going through when he was 14 or 15 years old. It was what he went through when he was 21, 22, 24. And you know, the fact that these guys are getting raised in such a state where, you know, they're at the center of this, you know, solar system from a very young age, and that's kind of just how they're going through the world. You know, there's a lot of like, cool benefits that come with that. And you know, as parents, you also see some. Some serious landmines.

But this is, by the way you guys. These other guys talk about this is the credit to the Mannings. I mean, like, we had Eli on a few weeks ago, and it is incredible how normal this man is, right? Like, totally.

And this is what's fast. This is what. We haven't even got it. I think one of the main things in the book is the coverage of the Manning family in general through the eyes of Arch. Right. Like the grandson. And they all have a role and uncles and dads and I think their handling of. And it all coming about with the professionalization of college football. Right? Like nil. And all this money was right at. You know, it had kind of been peaking when Arts was coming out and how were they going to handle this process and it. And again, you want to talk about fatherhood and then again these support systems and that. How cool of it that this family, I think, has kept perspective and has these supports in place to help each other, right? And that they lean on them and they're there for, for them. But I just thought it was even down to where Cooper, like, didn't allow the offers to come in. Nobody's offering my son a scholarship, right, when he's a sophomore. Like, this is stupid. He's got years to make the decision and, and they offer, you know, this whole idea of an offer and you got to post it out there, Shane, I'm sure, you know, like, you're, you're there with your son. It's turned into this kind of game. And I see it, I see it with a bunch of my peers, kids, right? Like, they're constantly posting these things and, and that they just flat out, we're like, we're not playing that game, right? Arch is going to be normal. We're going to, like, we're going to try and like, keep as much of this from him as possible. Let him make the decision. I just think that, like, the way they went about it is fascinating because there's so many people trying to break that, right? Like, trying to get to him and corrupt and, you know, get what they want out of it and so to kind of, um, you know, insulate him from a lot of that and so that he could be normal, right? And just be a person and be a part of a team. I don't know. I thought it was fascinating.

No, I mean, you're right with Arch. And, you know, I do try to tell the story of the Mannings through Arch and, you know, how crazy his recruitment got. And, you know, they wanted it to be a 1970s recruitment where, you know, they wanted the head, the high school coach to be the one running point, not even the parents. And there was a moment where arch was entering 9th grade where they played a spring game at Isidore Newman in New Orleans. And they were around the red zone and Arch is in the shotgun and he has a slant called on the right side and he notices that the corner's in press coverage and so he tugs on his face mask and he changes the route to a go. And of course, you know, that's the echoes of Peyton's, you know, impact on the NFL. And, you know, there's just so much going on in that one moment. Throws a fade for A touchdown pass. And Cooper was in the stands, and, you know, he was like, oh, my God, it's on. Like, you know, his life changed right then because, you know, if you're Arch Manning, how do you play quarterback? Even if people intellectually understand that, you know, being great in college and being the first pick in the NFL draft and being great in the NFL is almost impossible odds, it's kind of expected. Like, let's be honest, it's so messed up, but that's kind of true. And, you know, one of the reasons why he picked Texas to go to college is because, you know, Austin is a huge town, and he could have a semblance of being able to disappear there, whereas if he, you know, had gone to Ole Miss, he would never would have had that chance.

Oh, God, you just. The weight. Just the weight of having your granddad's. Your grandfather's name, you know, like, just an iconic quarterback, especially obviously in, you know, in the South.

And, you know, Alex, do you want to hear something funny, though? Because I know we talk about the weight that comes along with this stuff, and it's, like, hard. It's hard to be a kid, especially with these things. There's a. There's a good story about this guy, Stevie Cohen, who's a big hedge fund manager, okay. And he now he owns the Mets, and I guess he has a child, and somebody said to the child, like, oh, man, wow. Gosh, must be really hard to be Steve Cohen's kid. And apparently Stevie Cohen responded like, you know, the only thing harder than being Stevie Cohen's kid is and the person's like, no, What? It's like not being Stevie Cohen's kid, you know, like. And so I, you know, I. I was hearing that, and I had the same emotion as you do, which is I think. I truly think that the expectations around Arch are, like. They're insane. And the credit, that story notwithstanding, that goes to the Mannings for, like, just, like, having him be a kid who, like, seems incredibly well adjusted and has this broad support system that is, I think, their greatest accomplishment. The fact that they have this incredible family that cares about each other and can raise a quarterback without him expecting that he has to be that even with those expectations is the most incredible compliment you could give to Archie Manning and that the entire crew, I think, yeah, it's a.

Like I said earlier, you know, it's a dangerous path. And, you know, I think that, like, one of the things that, you know, I think you have to be wired a certain way to want to Be a quarterback. Like, I just think that, like, it's just not the same as, you know, being a right fielder or whatever. You have to be wired a certain way. And there was one moment where Archie was, you know, Archie took so much pride in his huddles and in some ways that's when he felt most like a quarterback, is how he ran a huddle and how he looked at the guys and how he called plays and how he, you know, tried to inspire people without calling them out. All these things, he took so much pride in it. And he was once talking to Arch about you know, just how much of his, you know, identity as a quarterback he. And how personally he took his. His ability to run a huddle. And Arch was like, yeah, you know, red, they call them red. You know, we don't huddle. And it's like, you know, how does that happen? You know, like so much of the, the archetype and the in the image of being a quarterback is, you know, you have to be this general. And the fact that like nowadays in college, you know, they really don't huddle as much as they used to. And so many of the, so much of the job is kind of automated in a weird way.

Yeah, dude, I said that. There's like a lot.

They don't even say set hud anymore. They just do that.

But dude, there's that like what you just said is like a crazy. It's like that story is gonna like haunt me now as a dad, which is the, you know, like all the things you want to like give to your kids and that you're like ready to tell them and like, you know, so much pride and this and that. And I'm like, okay, but we don't huddle. You know, like there's so many versions of that that I'm sure exist like in our day to day life of like, okay, cool story, dad, but like, what am I gonna do with that?

AI, you're definitely. This is by far more the norm. Seth. Just hit on it. The vast majority of QBs coming into the NFL have never called to play in a huddle. The entire side, they're out there lined up, they all look to the sideline, they get their signals from their position coach, right? Or infamously the Chip Kelly stupid posters. And they need something or they don't. And then the quarterback turns out and literally claps his hands and the ball comes right like so that I think also the idea of what makes a quarterback, right, it was this field general. I mean, famously, quarterbacks Called the game plan. Right. Like, there was. They called the plays forever. Right. Like, that has only changed in modern football. Yes. Like, they. You got the game plan, right? Len Dawson with the Kansas City Chiefs, like, he got the game plan. You were out there. He called every single play in the huddle and then ran it. Right. Like, that obviously has changed now with play callers coming in, but it's gone a step further in college, especially the spread, the air raid, all this stuff that nobody's calling plays. They don't even know how to do a cadence. And so you can actually get. I mean, there are kids that go in the NFL that are actually kind of, in some ways, introverted. They're young. They haven't ever been in front of a room, let alone a huddle. Right. Like, and then obviously still have this leadership role that comes with being the starting quarterback. And again, they've got guys that are in their mid-30s that are, you know, played a long time, that, you know, I think those are different worlds in some ways.

There's no doubt. And I think that, like, you know, look, I think that in the past 20 years, there have been a couple terrific college football minds who figured out ways to exploit the bigger hash marks, you know, in college football. And so because of that, like, before, the Colorado Rockies were a Major League Baseball team. You know, the team in Denver was an affiliate of the Milwaukee Brewers. They were the Denver Zephyrs. And, like, the brewers could never trust any statistics that came out of Denver because all these numbers were juiced because of the altitude. And it's like college college football, especially for the quarterback. You can put up phenomenal statistics.

It's a great analogy.

Quarterback and not be able to really play in the NFL and not even to call a play. And, like, you know, one of the things I get into is obviously that mystery. How. How do you, you know, look at the skill set of a college quarterback and project it and see whether they can play in the NFL and in it, you know, Sean Payton kind of looked at this, and he invented this. This algorithm that I'll. I'll keep it quiet for now, but it was a really interesting thing to help, you know, try to answer that question for him. And it helped. It helped lead him to drafting VO Nix, you know, two years ago.

I know Sean Payton actually, like, spent time with him over the years. He is obviously one of the best offensive minds in football. And we talk about this a lot. Like, again, we said at the top of the show, what makes a quarterback. It's the Lowest hit rate of a first round pick by position. Right. We don't the combine the underwear Olympics doesn't know how to identify them, what makes them great. And I had never heard this, this what you have in there, this kind of algorithm that Sean Payton breaks down and how to identify. Because I do think so much of this comes back to processing and it's not necessarily intelligence. It's you know again when the, you know, the 50,000 eyeballs, the millions of people watching are on you, what do you do? Does it, does it change you? And he has this interesting way I think to try to identify this. I thought it was really cool. I don't want to spoil it but it's the, it's one of the most I think insightful things. It made me really want to kind of go back and see if it played out true. Go back to some of these QBs and of kind college and their college careers and apply the algorithm and see if it works.

Well Seth, I'm just telling you this might be a little bit of an opportunity for a commercial for the book. Give a little hint of this algo, you know that, that an algo probably bridges the gap and a lot of glue guys, listeners between the sports and the business.

I do think that like when you're looking at quarterbacks like the throwing has to be the thing they have they think about least and you know that that's really, you know, I mean my ass was exposed, you know, obviously you know, at age 16. But it's like, you know, the throwing has to be the thing that they think about least because there's so many other things that you do have to think about and they can weigh you down and can derail guys and you know, like Kevin o' Connell. There's this moment in the book where Kevin o' Connell obviously great coach with the Vikings and he was a four year starter at San Diego State, he gets drafted by the Patriots, he thinks hey I'm going to learn from Tom Brady, then I'm going to go elsewhere and become a great quarterback. And you know he basically, I think he threw like nine passes in his career, something like that. But like he, he never, his career never got going and he was always wondering like why, you know, I, why didn't I make it? And he, when he became a coach he went back and he watched Elway's game winning drives and Montana's game winning drives and Tom Brady's game winning drives and what stood out was how mundane they were and how like obvious they were. And simple. And, you know, that so many of the. The throws were just out, you know, little flares to the running back and just gaining yards. And there was a genius in that simplicity that he couldn't comprehend at the time. Like when he would. When he would try out for NFL teams, he would try to do that one throw that made the coaches, you know, take off their hats and be like, oh, my God, we need this guy. When really what. What they needed was just someone who, you know, move to the chains, you know, And I. And he. He was able, you know, going back to, like, you know, forgiving yourself for not, you know, panning out as a quarterback. He was able to take that and I think, as a coach, apply it going forward. And, you know, he can kind of understand his quarterbacks in a way that, like, I think that if he hadn't come to that kind of realization, it would have been more difficult for him.

This reminded me of two things, which is actually quite fascinating. Two very different things. One was the Arnold Palmer quote about golf, which is, golf is a game of inches, and the most important 6 inches are the ones between your ears. Right. Like, I always thought that was, like, interesting and applicable here. The other thing, when you were talking about that was a good friend of mine is a, you know, investor venture capitalist who works at another firm. His name is Eric Vishria. And if you ask him, like, he's an incredible board member.

He really good.

Really good. Really good board member. And, like, think about what a board member is. Somebody who's supposed to help founders. If you ask him, like, why he's good at it, he's like, you know, because I was a failed founder, like, he tried to start something, you know, and he said it didn't turn out the way that I think to the level of ambition that he has. And I always thought that was like. That reminded me a lot of Alex, of what you talked about on the quarterback side. Right. Like, somebody who's been there, who actually maybe didn't get it all done, but sort of understands why and understands what the things were and then finds their new way to give it back. And, I don't know, it, like, reminded me of what you were just saying, Seth, on that a lot in general.

Yeah. Hall of Famers struggle as coaches because they don't know how to communicate what came so naturally to them. Right. Like, and came so inherently to them. And yet guys that struggle or maybe didn't have quite as good a skill set and found out a way to operate or failed and like, realized why I think do do so much of a better job, right? Like, I mean, again, I mean, some of the best. I mean, this, like these. These QBs, when the guys I was around that didn't have big arms, right, they weren't the fastest, but, man, they could go operate and play. Like, I learned the most from those guys because it was like, damn. Like, they, like, they were. They played so fast. They processed. They threw the ball early. Like they did all the little things and it made you think. Like, I mean, I. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, like, to your point, Seth, like, I almost. When I was young, I had the same thing as Kevin where I was, like, I felt like I had to do too much. Like that there was this magic that I had to do the big throw, the big play, and I forced it. And then it wasn't until, like, you know, you learn the hard way. You make a shit ton of mistakes, you get to a point where you're like, yeah, just run the freaking offense, man. Like, if the defense tells you to throw the flyer out, throw the flyer out.

It's one of the things that I think is so interesting about quarterbacking and pro sports is like, you know, that you and Steve Young and other people, you can articulate this and you can, you know, you can have a conversation like, Dan Marino doesn't know what it's like to go through life with. Without being. To throw the ball where he wants whenever.

Yes.

And, you know, of course, you know, so in a weird way, it's like, Dan Marino's a horrible guy to talk to you about quarterbacking because it's not that it came easily to him, but it's just because, like, there's just, you know, he's so. He's so exceptional that there's very little that translates. And, you know, with Steve Young, you know, he's this great quarterback philosopher, and so much of the book is him being broken, figuring out a way through it like you did Alex. And then, you know, trying to teach people. You know, he sees the. Like, I can help you. And, you know, we kind of reach a point where, you know, I. I kind of have to say to Steve, like, what if you can't? You know, what if. What if, like, you're as exceptional as Dan Marino is, even though your path was different? And, you know, like, and. And that's what exists right here. You know, he's. He always says, like, you know, there's. There's 10 arms that might come out of any draft that could you know, play in the NFL. You know, what if there's not actually. What if we talk about guys? Oh, you can make all the throws. Well, can you. Can you do it in September? Can you do it in December? Can you do it in January? Can you do it in the fourth quarter of the super bowl when Bill Belichick is scheming against you? Can you do it more than once after that? You know, there's very few guys who can do that.

I think the big takeaway, Seth, that we have from this conversation is that we should be a lot nicer to Alex. He's a lot more special than we give him credit.

I love it. I love it.

Right? That and, you know, King Smith is kind of what we should start calling him. Is that Alex?

Do you agree?

Is that the real takeaway?

About fucking time. I guess.

The Seth conversation. Now I know why you're so late all the time. You know, being the man. You know, you're not used to sharing the spotlight, Seth.

We always. We always end the show. I mean, it's called blue guys, right? Like, we kind of celebrate. We've all had people in our lives and on teams and all the teams that we're on on that have, like, you know, that make them go. They do the little things. They do whatever it takes to make it work to help the team.

Who.

Who are the. The glue guys? Blue people in your life. Right.

Like, when you remember Seth was shouted out as a glue guy.

He was. That's right.

Right. This is.

Yeah.

You are the first person as a guest who has been shouted out by a previous guest as a glue guy, I got to tell you, that's a big honor.

I know. Where's my letter jacket? I think that. And this goes back to, like, some of the themes we talked about is, I think that, like, you know, even though, to a certain extent, like, the entire building is kind of reverse engineered to help quarterbacks, it's a very lonely job, and writing is a very lonely job. Like, Shane, you're probably experiencing it, you know, working on your memoirs. I mean, it's, you know, it's you and, you know, having someone that you can call where very little needs to be exchanged for someone to understand I think is a huge deal. So Wright's been that guy for me. I mean, you know, I met Wright. We were in communications law class together, which is really the only journalism class you need to know. You know, where does the First Amendment cover you and where does it not? And, you know, we met there and, you know, Wright has always just been someone that, you know, there are other friends, too. But Wright, especially, is just one of those guys that, like, you know, he. He never doesn't answer his phone except when he's on your podcast. I was hired ESPN Magazine, my first job out of college. I've been there ever since. I'm just crazy. But, like, I've always felt like I had bosses who were invested in my success. And I thought that, like, what a blessing, you know, that is. I've never had to fight that fight. And, you know, so I think that, like, a lot of the bosses that I've had over the years, you know, especially my editor, you know, Eric Neal was unbelievable. Khalid Salam, Chris Buckle, this guy Mike Drago, who edits a lot of our investigative work, you know, the fact that, like, they've just always been kind of invested in my success, I think is, like, one of those things that, you know, you just notice it. When I have friends who I can tell the same isn't, you know, that. Isn't that like that for them? And I just. I feel so fortunate to have that.

Seth, I have one more. I just realized. I know we said that was the last question, but I. I did have one more. More, which was the beginning of your book. The dedication is, if I recall correctly, it's for those who try.

For all who try.

Yeah, for all who try. Why is that? The dedication of the book?

Like I said earlier, I think it was like, for anyone who ever dreamed of doing this or tried to do it, it's like the fact that Alex read it and he felt a kinship with other quarterbacks throughout the ages, you know, no matter what they were, I think is like, you know, that's what I wanted. I wanted anyone who's ever thought about playing it, tried to play it, or did play it to be able to read this and have it feel like their story was getting spoken to them through these other characters. So, you know, that was. That was that, you know, that was my thought with it.

It's an amazing, amazing dedication because I even read it beyond the quarterback, you know, position, and just, you know, for anyone, it was awesome, really cool.