Is Tough Feedback Dead? - [Glue Guys, EP.38]

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He finally gets to me and he goes and badier, badier. Like I'm Mr. Perfect. I'm Mr. All American. Everybody loves me. Brandon Haywood kicked your ass. You're supposed to be the player of the year. And Brendan Haywood absolutely embarrassed you. And I'm sitting there like, Alex, I want to hear like your biggest chew out story. What is the, your entire career? Oh, maybe when you're young. Maybe when you're young. What is the biggest chew out story that you've ever had?

I mean the number one by far. I, I mean I still remember it was my very first bowl game in college. So again, Urban, Urban's the head coach. Dan Mullen is my quarterback coach.

Dan Mullen, the one like I've met who was like at your hall of fame ceremony.

Dan went on, he's the current head coach at unlv. He was the head coach of the Florida Gators for a long time. The head coach at Mississippi State. Like he developed Dak Prescott like, I mean the guy like a brilliant, great coach. But he was young, young at this point. He was the quarterback coach. He had come from Bowling Green with Urban and again they all like everybody drank the Kool Aid, right? Like to Urban's philosophy, right? Like of just. There's only one speed man, and it's maxed out. And that was my first year starting. So still I'm, I Was like Bambi out on the field, you know, I, I literally like looked like Bambi. And we made the bowl game and we went to the Liberty Bowl. We're playing Southern Miss and Southern Miss had like a top five defense. It was weird. We were the conference, uh, we were the Mountain west champs. They were the Conference USA champs. So these were the two mid level conferences. The champions played each other. So it kind of meant something, right? Like two champs playing. And it was in Memphis and they had a really good defense and we were a good offense. And so it was kind of this big matchup. And they were fucking good. They like took it to us. Well, they, they kept running this corner blitz and like, we ran this. We were again, we were in spread out formations. Like I had never fucking seen a corner blitz before in my life. Because you couldn't corner blitz up like the corner. If you played us, the corner was 30 yards away. Like, why would you ever blitz him, you know? And sure, we played Southern Miss. And they kept bringing this corner pressure, like from my blind side, from my left side. And I like, just. I, like, I hadn't seen this before. They hadn't shown it. And they jump. You know, you get a whole month to prepare for a bowl game. And they kept, they kept doing it. And so we come off the sideline, we're like making adjustments and I keep going out there and I just fucking can't see this thing. And I'm like, I take some sacks, I like throwing in completions, and I come off to the sideline after like the third or fourth time and I got an ass ripping like I've never gotten before from Dan Mullen. I mean, he is like. I mean, he is spitting in my face and he is me and calling me the dirtiest, meanest shit you have ever heard in your life. Like, just. You are so stupid. What the are you looking at? Like, just. I mean, just. And by the way, this is a guy like, river, you were there. Like, I spent like, we would play on Saturdays, every Sunday I was on his couch, right? Like, and him and his, his fiance would like, make me food and feed me, right? Like I was a scholarship kid and like, they like took care of me. I was like, he's in my wedding and I was in his, like. But like, he fucking. I mean, I, I've never felt so little on this sideline. And again, you're the starting quarterback. You think you're hot shit, right? It was my first year starting. We're in a bowl game. Like, again, I'VE been dreaming about this.

And he.

Fuck. I mean, oh, my God. And, like, you feel like the whole world's watching you, right? Like, every guy on the sideline is seeing this, and I'm just. Yeah. And you, like, I remember just kind of wearing it.

How'd you. How'd you respond?

Yeah. What happened after?

I think it definitely. The thing that I liked about that whole style, not necessarily getting styled, spoken to like that, but, like, the whole philosophy of. Of that kind of coaching style with Dan Mullen and Urban was like, it did make you fearless. Like, it was kind of like, what the are you doing? Go play. Like, let it rip. Like, don't. It didn't even let me think about, like. Like, there wasn't, like, necessarily, like, a fear of failure because it was so aggressive. Right? Like. Like, the philosophy is, like, we. Again, we were gonna, like, score 40. Like, why aren't we won the bowl game, by the way? I think we won 17 0. It was like. Like, not a blow, but, like, that, to my point, like, wasn't good enough. 170 was, like, inexcusable that we kept it that close.

Didn't cover. Didn't cover the spread. Yes, didn't cover the spread.

Exactly. And so. But, like, oh, you're definitely not doing that today with the transfer portal. There's no way.

Gone so fast before we get there. This is actually just a question because another angle, and then I want to hear chains, too, but, like, were your parents at the game? Yeah. Hell, yeah. Okay, so I'm just, like, envisioning, like. Because remember, like, now that's the other thing is that, like, parents don't even let their kids, like, get coached. But you're, like, 19 years old, right? Like, you're not 25 and you're 19. Your parents are. I mean, certainly they're watching you just get smoked on the sideline, right?

Yeah.

And that's the other thing is that, like, they didn't, like, go do something about it afterwards. Of, like. Right.

Like, like, my dad grew up on a farm. Like, yeah. Like, the words that were repeated through my youth were get tough. Right? Like, hell, no. If I went and whined about a coach yelling at me, no. They were like, no. He certainly wasn't coming down from the stands to do anything about that. No.

There's, like, two things, Shane, before we get to yours, that are so funny. Like, you know, there's this one. There's this book that I think it's. It was written by, like, some Stanford administrator, and basically they were Talking about how, like, one of the hardest things for them now is like, the parents come to the, like, meetings like in college, whereas, like, kids are talking about their majors and stuff. These kids are 18, 19 years old. The parents are at the meeting, like, think about how insane that is. And so they're like, yeah, it's like the kids. It's actually like, as hard to deal with the kids, it's very hard to deal with their parents. You're like, oh, my God, that's one thing. The second thing is same thing. There's this book Michael Lewis wrote called Coach about like his coach in New Orleans and basically how he was like, life changingly awesome for Michael Lewis. You guys are all nodding here. You've seen it. But, like, basically kicked out of the school later because they were like, no, he's too tough. Like, so I think you, like, have like, real evidence of the generational change in that. And I think it happens in every generation. Like, my dad, I'm sure, would laugh to think, like, I'm the one who like, is the hardo, you know, because he's like, no, you ain't dealt with shit. Like, you know, look at what we dealt with.

You had technical fall asking. All right, you know, let's not forget now.

All right.

By Ravi Bobby Knight Gupta. Okay, you did get technical foul.

That's right. You know what? You know, being nice doesn't mean you're a pushover. Shane, what is. What is your biggest chew out story?

I had two. I've only been yelled at twice in my entire life by. By any coach. And one was in seventh grade when I played football. Okay? So I'm the new kid at Detroit Country Day, all right? Six foot four, tight end. Okay? Imagine throwing that Alex in seventh grade, you know, and so, you know, it's like, it's like first week of school, you know, football game, you got your friends there. And know I'm not a showboat, like, at all. I've only showboated twice in my career. And I've gotten feedback that that's not the way to act twice. And this was one of them. And so it was a third down. We're playing University of Liggett. Whenever we got to the red zone, it was automatic 19 waggle. And that was for me, I go hit the linebacker and they just throw it up. And like the DBs in middle school, they're like five, five. Like, it was, it was. It was crazy, you know, so I'm. I'm lost in these guys. And so the first Touchdown. And I don't know, like, where it came from. It was the most spontaneous thing I ever did. Third down, 19 Wago. I catch it. I go into the end zone, and I high step.

Like, who high steps?

You were inspired by Dion.

And, like, I don't know. I never said to myself, I'm on a high step after a touchdown. But, like, I was. I was so excited, you know, I got all my. All me. All these new kids watching me. I'm the new kid in school, so I thought I had to, like, be cool. And so I high stepped. And so the coach of the middle schools was on the staff of the varsity team. He brought me over, and I was bigger than him, but he grabbed my face mask, said, barrier. Don't you ever, ever, ever do that again. Get back out there and score another touchdown. And I'm like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. And so, like I said, think from that day, I never showboated again. I ate a chalupa one time when The Grizzlies scored 100 points because we were a bad team and everyone in Memphis got a free chalupa. And so we scored 100 points, and I. I ate an air chalupa, all right? And after the game, Glenn Rice sought me out and said, you're too classy. Don't do that. And I felt like an idiot. And so, like, those are only two times I ever. I ever celebrated and got feedback from it. But Coach K yelled at me one time, and I'll never forget that. I mean, I. You know, it was after the North Carolina game my freshman year. We were number one. They're number two. And that was the only game I lost in college by double digits. And that was when they had Vince Carter and. And Antoine Jameson. I mean, they still play the alley oop. The best alley oop. Never was.

Like, this is the Ed Coda one off the backboard. That was the craziest I've ever seen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, that's how crazy it was. And it was like, the most hype game I'd ever been a part of. And we got our ass busted by Carolina that film session the next day. Man, I had never been in a film session like that one. And Coach K systematically went down the list one by one and gave everybody feedback. Now, you did not want to be on Coach K's bad side when it came to the film. Film study, right? And I. After this day, I said, I'm never going to be on this end again. And he finally gets to me and he goes and badier, badier. Like, I'm Mr. Perfect. I'm Mr. All American. Everybody loves me. Brandon Haywood kicked your ass. You're supposed to be the player of the year. And Brendan Haywood absolutely embarrassed you. And I'm sitting there like, and you. We just took it. We just, we just took it and we went to practice and had the hardest practice I've ever had in my entire life. And that day I said, I'm never going to be on the end of, of Coach Gay's of tirade again. And a lot of guys got it. I never got it again.

Have you seen what JJ Redick says about the best and worst thing? He's the best and worst feedback he's ever gotten. It's like kind of gone around Twitter recently. Shane, you've seen it. I'm sure It's. He said that Coach K said to him, we didn't win the championship last year because you weren't worthy of being a champion. Like, that's the reason we didn't get it, okay? And he's like, you know, you're out of shape, you're not committed, and you're our best player and you're not good enough to be a champion. And that's the reason we weren't a champion last year. JJ says, he's like, you know, it's the, it's the. I mean, that is a very intense thing to hear from somebody you respect so much, Whatever. And JJ says, like, worst thing ever happened to me, but also best thing that ever happened to me. He's like, he's like, what do I need to do to be worthy of being a champion? Okay, this is the workout plan, this is the commitment plan, this is the leadership plan. And you know, Duke didn't win the next year either, but JJ like, put in the work, you know, and he then, I mean, it's so crazy. Like he became like this fitness freak and you know, the reason he was successful in the NBA was based on this, like, regiment. And it reminds me of a little bit of what you're saying, Shane, of like a well placed, honest and like searing piece of feedback can like change your life. But it requires that like, specificity and honesty and real like stick the knife in, you know? And that, I think is the best thing that he could have ever done for jj.

I think I agree.

Well, don't you think? This is what I was going to say, Shane. Like, Coach K, like, he does a great job. Like, even you could tell, like when we were with him and it Was out in public like, and at his press conferences, he's so composed. Right. He's so even tempered. And. And I think like that's what I think people see in view of him that he's so calm and I mean the guy's like, you know, he's doing Aflac commercials with Don Staley now. Right. Like it's just like he's lovable. Right. Like he's. But as. And I didn't really know. That's kind of what I thought of him honestly before, like getting to know you and hearing more stories and went back and visited and like, no, he's old school. He's old school. Like, at least I get the impression it is direct. And then I'm sure some of these locker room meetings when no one's around, like, I mean he could cut loose with the best of them. But I think it's interesting because again, and he does probably a great job of keeping that, you know, for the team only. But it does remind me like. And Andy Reid is not dissimilar. Like Andy's old school, man. He's not like. And again, like I think people see obviously it's all. It's been so great lately. But like it's a lot of the smiles and laughs and stuff. But like behind closed doors, man, he's fiery, man. He says it like the red hair is there for a reason. Right. Like he can be old school, you.

Know, and, and what would. What would Andy Reid like guys up over Coach K was basically just not being tough and, and not playing hard and being selfish and. But mostly like lack of thought and. And effort. You got lit up.

Similar stuff. Same thing. Just being a jackass. Like generally speaking, being a. You know, like not caring, not listening. Right. Like being disrespectful to the rules. Like I. I mean I've seen Andy lose his. In a locker room. I mean I've seen him throw boxes and like, I mean like it. I mean get intense confrontational in guys faces. Certainly like him and Kelsey like a lot of them early on. But I think again like in. It's a similar thing. Like he does this. It's. There's a time and a place for it.

Yeah.

You know, like it's not everywhere. He doesn't do it on the sidelines a lot. Right. He has though. Like he's gotten to him and Kelsey got into it on the sideline. Right in each other's face. Yeah. But you, you rarely see that, you know. And again there are their moments for it that Are that are appropriate and, and some that aren't.

But Robbie. What? Like, obviously you're not getting cussed out in the boardroom, okay, at the, at the water cooler at the coffee station. They're not calling you a. You know, there are laws against that. People lose, you know, a lot of money with lawsuits. What is the closest. And maybe you have, maybe you have been at work, you know, what is, what is your greatest tongue lashing at work? And what was your greatest tongue lashing when you, when you were a Hooper in high school too?

You know, so let's see. Growing up, for sure, you know, it would come, it would come from my parents almost more than coaches and just like from my dad. Like, my dad was. He's like the best guy. He's fun, you know, all that stuff. But he's scary when he was mad, you know, like, and not scary like he was gonna do something, but like there's a real. He just created good fear, you know, of like, don't with me. And so like, you know, I remember occasionally getting on the wrong side of that. And you know, he's just, he just has a big deep voice and he's, his face looks so mad when he's mad. And like, you're just, you're just really scared of like, I need to knock this off. The worst thing for me, I told you guys this was when I like asked him for help when I was in college. He's like, I'm not going to help you. I'm tired of your, like, I don't know if you're going to go like, do a good job. So I'm not like putting my name out there on your behalf. And that was like very, very, very hurtful. But I like earned it, you know what I'm saying? To the negatives, that was the, the worst, like tongue lashing was that I had a coach in high school who was like very Bobby Knight inspired, who like break clipboards and you know, all that shit. But like that, honestly that was almost more like I was like ambitious sports wise. So I kind of liked having a hard ass coach. Like it felt like it was more real, you know what I'm saying? And so I actually almost kind of liked us having a crazy coach because I was like, I'm never going to play in the pros. Like it's cool that he cares so much. I like that at work, you know, it's interesting, Shane, I'm going to answer a slightly different question than the one you asked. I think I tried as A leader to administer certain feedback. I, like, tried to be. I tried to be very nice externally and very tough in certain situations, you know. And so the thing that I was thinking about when you were saying this was more like the way you described Andy Alex of like, you know, externally, everyone has a certain thought, but, like, certain things really are like, no, no, no, no. Like, a lot of times leaders will ask me, like, how did you deal with this kind of thing? And I'm like, I didn't. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, I think I was, like, intolerant of that kind of thing. Like, very few people would come and ask me about, like, comp. Stuff. Very few people would ask me about things that didn't move our business forward. Because I think the few times that happened, I was so upset and so angry and so visibly frustrated like that. I think it kind of got around of like, there's only a few things that really piss this guy off, but, like, he gets really pissed. So, like, one time, I'll tell you, somebody who had access to our pay data, okay, somebody in the finance team had access to our pay data on, like, what? We paid everybody and came in one day kind of like haughty and a little like, you know, like, hey, look, I need to make more money. And I'm kind of like, okay. And, you know, not quite as respectful as they should have been as they said they wanted to do that. And I'm like, why? Well, I saw what this person gets paid, and, you know, I am not getting paid like that, and I need to make money like that. And I'm fucking pissed. Like, I am so pissed. And to this point, this guy kind of thinks he, like, has me in the negotiating. You know, I'm in the weak position. And I'm like. So I wait for him to finish calmly, and then I'm like, are you done? He's like, yeah. I'm like. So I just want to be clear. Your position is that you deserve a pay raise for unethically using the pay data that you uniquely have access to. That's the position that you're taking in this room right now. Like, the data that you uniquely have access to because of your job that you're now misusing, you're going to use it to negotiate against me, and that's why you think you deserve a raise? Is that. Do I have. I understood your position clearly. And the guy at this point is like, oh, shit. You know, because, like, I'm usually pretty nice. You Know, and I'm pissed. And he's like, well, that's not. I'm like, no, no, no. I think I've understood it pretty well, you know. And so I was like, if you'd like to talk about your compensation, I am more than happy to talk about that. If you want to talk about your performance. Right. I was like, what we're never doing again is talking about your compensation related to data that you uniquely have the privilege to have access to. And by the way, I would tell you that your performance in my mind has gone down about five levels based on your judgment today. You let me know if you still want to talk about comp today. And the guy slinks out. And of course, that, like, in a good way, like, gets around because it's like, do not do that. And so I kind of come back. I really like this. This idea of, like, long fuse, big explosion. And that's like a big thing for me. And management is like, be intolerant of certain things and, like, know you'd be the nicest guy in the world. But, like, certain things is like, no, nfw, we're not doing that. And it's funny because, like, my kids will even say, like, dad doesn't yell at us very much, but there's certain things that he just is, like, irrationally mad about. But I like that, the reputation in our family, you know. So anyway, different question you asked, but that's what came to mind.

I love that I. Do you think? I. I think equally, I guess, as I think about. And Shane, I'd wonder your opinion on this. Like, I guess the reason I felt like I. I could handle pretty direct, tough feedback was it was. It does come back to my dad as well. Similarly, like, just that it just goes kind of the. The mentality and even how I was, you know, brought up in that regard. And again, it was probably similarly. There were certain things, like hustle, effort were like, the most, you know, the number one thing that pissed my dad off and a lack of effort in anything, you know, like there was. To your point, Ravi, it was like it could be explosive and there was a healthy fear there, you know, but that's not something that often gets talked about, especially today. Right. Like healthy fear.

Yeah. What's that look like? What is healthy fear today in the workplace, you know, for our kids? What's. What's healthy fear?

What. What. What do.

What do young people fear? What is healthy fear? The way we knew Healthy fear.

Yeah, it's. You know, it's interesting, Shane I just was listening about this yesterday, actually. There is this thing that somebody was talking about Steve Jobs and they were saying that, like, he was both like this tyrannical leader and also like the best boss that many people ever had. And they're like, well, how can this be true? And effectively, it was just that his standards were so, like, exacting that if you didn't bring something to the standard, he was impossible and he would like, fire people in the meeting and he would lose his mind and whatever. But if you did do amazing work, people, he was so protective of you and of the work and he was so inspirational to work for. And so I think the people at Apple, my very strong guess is that they had like, some healthy fear of Steve Jobs, but like, his, his approval was so valuable, you know. But so to answer your question of like, where does that healthy fear exist? Like, I hope my kids have some healthy fear of me. You know, I, I, I, I, that's something I aspire that they have. I know they have a healthy fear of their mom. You know, like there was like some aspect of that.

Do you think all great leaders have some level of healthy fear, right? And they may get it different ways. Like, I'm thinking like, like Bill Belichick. I, I think always kind of is, is like a teacher, right? Like, he, he always seems teaching, but he's, he's very cold and exacting, right? Like, if you're not getting the job done, I mean, how many, how many Patriot hall of Famers have been shipped out of there, right? Like, kind of pretty again, like, coldly. And like, in some ways that was the fear that he cultivated that, that don't get complacent, right? Because I'm not, it could be you, could be anybody, and I'll. And I'll send you packing, but certainly Andy Reid. There's a level of fear in that building. It is his building, right? Like Coach K. It sounds like there was a level, right? His program, a lot of the, it's certainly urban. Urban. There was a ton, you know, but do you think it's required?

Well, I don't know if it's required, but it's, it's a common theme. And I just spent 48 hours writing a book and just about intangible.

Things.

That, that, that make catalysts and are the secret glue of, of glue guys. And, and one of the, one of the intangibles that we spent a lot a long time on was productive paranoia. Productive paranoia is having a healthy amount of fear. But instead of using letting that fear paralyze you and keep you from performing. You use it as fuel and as motivation to actually perform better. Right. And I think that's what we're talking about. You always say, you know, only the paranoid survive. And, you know, certainly that was the case for me growing up playing for Coach K. I was always paranoid that I wasn't good enough. And I was paranoid that when they said that I was. I wasn't going to make it, and I was soft because I was from the suburbs. Like, I. I'm like, I don't. I don't think I am, but I better be, like, tough, you know, to show these people I'm not soft and I can make it, you know, and when people said I was unathletic, I say, well, you know, maybe, but, like, I'm gonna play so hard that it won't even make a difference. And so, you know, that. That spoke to me. But I do think that great leaders can inspire that in their people, where the productive paranoia is actually a fuel and can raise someone's game.

Yeah, that's cool language. Because, Alex, I was trying to think of an example that counters this idea of great leaders have to create a healthy fear. I think I. The only one that came to mind was, I don't know, Pete Carroll at all. Right. But, you know, he has this style that does not appear the same as some of these other people. So you maybe you can talk about that, but to me, like, lead by example. Like, does Steph create healthy fear for the teammates that he plays with? Like, I don't know. You guys tell me, like, what do you think?

I. I think he just goes about it differently. I still think there's a fear, like, and to that point, like, a productive paranoia. Like, he sets the bar so high.

Yes.

Yeah. If you're a teammate. Right. Like, and I think he gets down on himself when he doesn't live up to it. But he's like, you can see it, like, if you're not holding up your end, right? Like, body language, like, there.

There's.

There's stuff you don't, you know, you.

Don'T want to let Steph down. So I think the paranoia comes from.

Yeah.

Am I letting Steph down? I mean, mean, here. Here is one of the greatest all time players.

Yeah.

You know, one of the greatest of our generation. One of the greatest of all time. And, like, I'm. I'm letting him down. Like, I'm wasting his prime.

Right.

And so, like, the paranoia comes from, like, I better bust my ass. I'm letting step down. Right.

I think that. Okay, so that, I think, is the insight personally, which is. I think the best leaders are people you do not want to let down. Right. Like, I think that is consistent. And I think to your point, Shane, and to your point, Alex, the way a Steph does that, I think is by being so, like, perfect, like, hardworking, wonderful guy, all these things, and like a great teammate. It's like, dude, like, yeah, like, you're really. You're gonna let this guy down. You're gonna, like, not live up to what he's giving you. I think that's, like, unique in his style, and I admire the hell out of it. But I do think that, like, I think, Alex, every great leader has crazy high standards, and every great leader does not. The people that are around them don't want to let them down, whether it's from fear or whether it's from something else. Yeah. And.

But I also wonder, like, we don't know, like, what Steph's like at practice or film sessions with teammates. You know, like, who's to say he's not like, Coach K, right? Like, you know, like, that. It may be in his own style. I mean, I'm sure he's not like MF and guys, but, like, I'm sure there's times he can be direct. You know, in fact, I would bet it. Anyway. It's funny you said that, Shane, like, when you were talking about a catalyst and like this, I. I like this idea of productive paranoia. It. It made me think about. And again, Wright Thompson mentioned the book that Urban Meyer gave out. And it's a book, a book that I still have today that he gave out to the whole college team. And it's called 2 12. 212. That's the name of the book. And it's a tiny little book. And in his whole talk as he presented it to the team, was about, this is kind of this productive paranoia. So. And it was degrees. 212 degrees, I should correct that's probably the actual title, because at 211 degrees, water is just hot. It's just hot water. Okay? It's really fucking hot, but it's just hot, right? And it just sits there and it's stagnant and it doesn't do shit. But that last degree, when it kicks over to 212, it boils. And with boiling water, you create steam. And you can do a whole bunch of. With that, right? You can move trains and boats and engines and you can do. And it's this book about this exact thing that, again, you can do 211. And that's great. And again, you just have hot water. It's just sitting there. And that last percentage means all the difference. And again, it is this little, tiny book. And I still remember. I still have it. Right? And it was that, like, that. That him as a catalyst, like a little bit of this was, you know, creating that kind of paranoia that. Are you doing that last percent right. To that.

That.

That is going to mean all the difference in whether or not we become anything as a team. You become anything as a, you know, a person or a player or whatever you're trying to do, that all the power is at that last final percent. Right? So you think you're working hard. You think you're working hard, but are you really? And, like, I'll never forget it.

And you didn't want to find out. Hell, no.

Yeah.

When it made you think, like, oh, am I. Am I really doing enough? Like that last rep. That last. Like, you don't want to go. You know, there's times you feel like. And you don't want to go. Put the work in.

I don't know.

Anyway, I still. Yep.

Can you instill productive paranoia in your kids? Or is it a different. A different era? Look, you know, Robbie, you. You know, you. You. Your dad told you that I'm not helping you. You better figure it out. You had paranoia, right, Alex? You had one scholarship offer. All right, I better make this work.

It's so hard, you know, it's so hard to not help you.

So what can you do? What can we do to help our listeners if they believe in the power of productive paranoia? Is there. Is there a positive way, Is there a productive way to instill that in our own kids as fathers?

I think so, but I think it is really hard. And maybe it's hard because all we want to do is be the snowplow to, like, get things out of their way, right? But the real way, if they know that you're always going to snowplow for them, what would they be paranoid about? They're like, you're just going to go and solve it, right? So I think it requires, like, the courage, which, by the way, is fucking so hard, to, like, let them suffer, you know, and let them deal with it. You know what I'm saying, Shane? It's like. And so academically, I know how to do it. I don't know if I have the courage to let it happen. Yeah, I definitely think you can do it. You just have to like, actually not make the call on their behalf. And you also have to like, let them fail, you know.

I, yeah, I think the other thing is, I guess I try to as your point of like, that I love the word you use. I hadn't thought of it like that, but like the catalyst. Shane. Right. So, like, there's that part of just getting the out of the way, which is so hard as a parent because your number one instinct is like, protect. And so it's so hard. But I, I think the thing I, I try to do with my kids, I, I do jab my kids a lot. I like, I try to challenge my kids a lot, like in little ways, like fun little ways. But I, I do subtly, like, you know, I chat like my daughter. And when's the last time you went and you know, you wanted the dancing. Like, when's the last time you went scratched? When's the last time you practice? Like, I like, you know, like so and so is doing it.

Yeah.

I do it with both my boys. Like, I try to, like, I try to make it a healthy, I guess, as possible. I don't know if I'm doing it well, but, but that's, that's my take. I, and I guess I like to see how they respond. Right. And I, I, I tried to make them more comfortable with being uncomfortable, if that makes any sense. Like as I, as I challenge them.

Do you do it chain?

I, I jab my son, my kids probably way too much, right? My kids are not me. And thank God, because I, I was crazy. I was, I was literally psycho. And you know, another way to talk about productive paranoia is just having a disciplined pursuit of your craft. I always believe that the most, the most we can do, the best we can do is have our kids fail well.

Right? Yeah.

Yep.

Have them fail well and hopefully they get some lessons out of it. You know, they're not always going to get the lessons. You can't force those lessons upon them. Right. And that's probably the most frustrating part because we've all been through fires and the trials and it shaped us. And as we've come out the other side and been very, very successful because of it. Right. And we know like that, that that's, that's a secret formula. Like, there's no shortcuts. You know, it's through the mountain. It's not, it's not taking up a plane around it. Right. And so as much as we want them to just to get that lesson and shake and be like, oh, just listen, you know, like in flag football. Now, just listen. It's 10 yards. It really is 10 yards. Just, just. Just trust me. You know, this is the way. This. This is the way. But, you know, when you. When you talk to, you know, other parents and people who have kids older than us, you know, every person, you know, to. To a parent, they say, you know what? They get it. It eventually clicks and, you know, we're in. We're in the boat now. I've 16 and 13, and all your kids are younger, and we worry about, are they ever going to get it? They're going to get it. It'll click, you know, when, where, how, that's the mystery. And that's probably the toughest part for all of us. But it. But it will. It will. They will not go outside one day and be eaten by wild bears. Right? They will figure it out.

I think one thing that I was thinking about when you were talking, Shane, about, like, what I hope my kids feel and, like, I don't know. I'm kind of, like, making this up now, but I. I kind of think it's right. I kind of hope they know that I will love them no matter what. Right. Like, of course. However, I think that their behavior and their actions will determine whether I like them and whether I respect them. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, they have the love no matter what. Like, obviously, I love them. I love them. I love them. But I kind of hope they think that, like, the like and respect is based on them, you know, And I think that the best moments that we have are, like, when they do something that really. I'm like, man, I really am impressed. Like, I remember you telling me about something Zeke did, and you being like, man, he really impressed me. Like, he really. I think it was like, over the summer, in some of what he had done, in the way he was a teammate and some of the way he'd played. And you're like, he really showed me. And I just think that feeling of, like, respect from your parents is so cool. And I think that, like, I kind of want their. My kids to feel that delineation of, like, yeah, you always have the baseline love. We're here for you, whatever.

But you're.

The way you act will determine whether you get the like and respect, which you want those things, too.

And earned.

And earned. There's only. I mean, I can't respect you because I want to. It has to be earned, you know?

Yeah.

100%, you know, like, my. I got a random phone call, like, what's this number. And my son's English teacher, of all people, just left me the nicest voicemail. And like, you know, I've read my son's pieces, and I love them because my son, I think he's brilliant and everything, but he said, you know What? You know, Mr. Badier, I just want to call and tell you that your son Zeke just has an amazing talent for writing. I thought he was qu. About basketball. I'm like, you saw him playing, like, no. For creative writing. And I just love teaching him. Like, you talk about, like, my. My heart soaring. My heart soared like an eagle. And at my boy who has this gift that, you know, I could. I can't even relate to, right, that, oh, my gosh, he's not my kid if he's a great creative writer. But, like, earned, earned. So when I want to share that with him, like, man, like, someone took their time out of their day to. To commend you, like, appreciate that you. You've earned it. You should be proud of this and. And keep on writing. Keep going with it.

I think on that. You know, the other thing is I think your friends can help you. Like, I. I was like, my kids had something that was. I thought they were going to struggle with, and I had this natural instinct to, like, try to go solve it. And I was actually talking to Alex, and he was basically like, it's, like, helpful to have the perspective. He's sort of like, yo, like, don't. Don't fix it. You know, like, that it's gonna be fine. And I didn't. And it ended up being like, it was, like, soccer related. And it ended up being that, like, it was way better that I didn't go solve it because they got to, like, go through some stuff, and it's like, better on the other side. But I think sometimes you actually do need people. So I think that's the other thing, Shane. If you're, like, trying to get to, like, lessons, I really think that, like, you have to tell people about the shit that's going on in your life, and you have to have some friends and you have to tell them about it. And you need somebody who's not as close to it as you are, because if you just talk to your spouse, they're just as close to it as you are. And so sometimes you need somebody who has a little bit of distance but still, like, loves you. And it's sort of like, hey, I actually see this clearly, you know, and the right answer is this thing that you might not have the Instincts to do. So I do think, like, talk to your friends about stuff like that because they see it more clearly than you do sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Going back to chew sessions and getting chewed out. How would you react if you're, if your kids got chewed out by coach? Not. That's not you.

Oh yeah, that's not you.

What do you say? How do you react? You know, obviously it's contextual. If they were, you know, you know, on Instagram during practice, like you deserve it. But like, you know, we all have good kids. Like, how are you reacting if your, the first time your kid really gets chewed out and they come home in tears?

I, like, I, I feel like I kind of live this. So my, my oldest son plays club soccer, like pretty competitively. Like again, Roy and I, his boys do as well. And so like we're in the same area here and soccer is pretty, pretty popular here in Northern California. Pretty competitive. And there's a lot, I would say the vast majority of the coaches now here are European. Right. Like they've been brought over there. There is a market for it in youth sports, so they come over little different. And so my son's coach for the last four years is Scottish. Okay. And right. First off, you can barely understand what he's saying. Okay. But he, he, he only know like the volume's at a 10 only, like all the time. And it's, there is a lot of feedback constantly. And it's loud and it's barked out. And again, I don't even, like half the time I'm not sure if the kids understand what the hell is being said, but it's, it's firm. Again, we live here. Like it's, you know, like the, the families in parenting. Like, again, it's very, like everybody's white collar. Like every parent has multiple degrees. Like lots of engineers, very educated. And again, that, this, it is, it's different than what they're used to.

You're the only one on this riverside with multiple degrees, Alex. Okay. I don't know if Shane has an extra one, but I'm a single degree guy. I don't know Shane, about you, but barely got one.

I barely got one.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, it's, it's funny. And so like it's, it. These conversations have come up at times where you get in the car after a practice or a game and my, my son is pissed, right, like over something that his coach got after him. Right. And again, kind of publicly, like with the team, you know, after the game or on the sidelines in front of everybody. And so, yeah, these, these conversations do come up. This coach, like, he doesn't have any kids. He lived like this. This is his life, right? Like soccer, these kids, his teams is his life. And he puts a ton into it. And sure, could he go about it different ways, but it is very well intentioned and it is one of those things. Like, I, I know it's cliche and we've all heard it, but like, the moment you're not getting barked at, right? Like, I do think there's some truth to this. Like, it means he's given up on you, right?

Yeah.

But to your point, like, trust and respect are huge, huge, huge parts of this, right?

For sure. You know, my daughter, there's a lot of ability to like, yeah, as a parent, I'm not stepping in like you, you gotta figure, like, you're all like, listen, you're gonna have a thousand different, you know, coaches and bosses in your life. And like, you have to. Part of this is like, you got to learn how to deal and handle it right, like on your own.

You.

Know, and internalizing it. And you got to find the good in, in these different, in the message, you know. So I think it's, I think it's valuable. Especially like, I don't want to, but like, I, I think as a young, you know, here he is, he's getting ready to start high school. And like, as a boy, like, I, I think there's, you can't be sensitive. I think it's hard. It is hard. It's a hard life if you're like overly sensitive, you know.

Trust us. Trust us.

Getting desensitized a little bit early.

What were you saying about your daughter, Shane?

Yeah, like, same thing. She plays competitive soccer and her coach was Jamaican and, and shout out Coach Richie. Coach Richie was awesome, but he was very tough on young girls who are going through puberty and very emotional. And it's funny that, like, there were times when Ella would come home and I'd see Richie just like, like going after, you know, she's a center back and, you know, didn't, didn't cover the ball, whatever. And I'm like, you all right? And she'd be like, yeah, like, this is Coach Richie just coaching me. He's just coaching me. And then now that she moved to Charlotte, she said a couple times where she's coming home, where the coach got on her and she'd been a little more sensitive about it, you know. And you. I want to ask her, like, well, why were you okay. With Coach Richie. But these new coaches, you know, get to you a little bit. And, and so that, that's where like the trust and respect from a, from a, coaching, from a managerial, from a boss perspective is, is the gateway to allow you to, to, to choose somebody out and give them an earful because, you know, they care and they love you and they're doing this out of respect and trying to make you the best player, the best person, the best work, you know, employee that you can be.

Right.

You guys have demonstrated real equanimity here. Okay, like I have you asked, like, how do you react when your kid gets chewed out? I have two reactions. Okay, so one is like, to the kid. Of course to the kid. I'm like a good grown up of like, look, you gotta, you're gonna have tough coaches. You gotta deal with this, you know, whatever, like all the right stuff. Then like with Avni, I'm like, I wanna kill this guy. Like, my real reaction, like, of course, like, for sure, they're so mad. I'm like, who think they are? You know, and, and then the reason I think, Shane, you're so right is of course it comes back to like, well, what do I think of this person?

Yeah.

Fundamentally. And do they care about my kid or not? Because it's one thing if they care about your kid. Like, if my brother like yells at our kids. Yeah. Like, maybe I'd be annoyed for a minute, but I'm like, dude, all he wants is what's good for them. Okay, fine, yeah, but like, if somebody cares about winning a, you know, contest, right? And my kid is a, you know, a pawn in this story, I'm kind of like, bro, what are you doing? You know what I'm saying? And so like, I think that it is funny because like, I have, I have to like work myself back down sometimes if that's happening. Because, like, I can say the right thing to them. And Alex, I say the same thing as you do, which is like, look, you're gonna deal with people throughout your life that are gonna communicate in ways you don't like, that are gonna have authority over you in ways you don't like. Like. And you're gonna have to learn to deal with this. And like, we're certainly not like, we're not quitting, we're not doing any of that stuff. We're gonna like, you know, know, what are you going to do?

Are you going to jump in the portal?

Yeah, like, exactly. But I think that even as a parent, for me, I sometimes have to get, like, talked down. Because my reaction is like, I need to go deal with this. And then, of course, like, no, you don't. Like, you know, you need to chill out. But I have a lot of, like, empathy for the parent that, like, goes and tries to solve the problem, right? Because if you feel like your kid is being treated unfairly, and of course, none of us can be objective about our kids, you know, it's almost like your duty to go and like, you know, protect them from this oppressor. And then I have to kind of like, work myself through that.

My mom, God bless her, you know, her feedback when I was. When I was young and I had tough coaches that were, you know, when I put in the Detroit Police Athletic League, former firemen and policemen, and they had to be tough because my teammates were tough, right? And so a lot of tough talk. And so my mom just said, look, you don't want them to talk to you that way, all right? Don't give him a reason. I'm like, all right, I won't. I'm not gonna give him a reason to lambast me. So, like, you know, part of it was I tell people all the time that as I got older, that was my mentality. And I had one job. My one job was to make my coach's life living hell every second I was on the bench, right? And how do you do that?

You just.

You stay out of the line of fire.

You do.

You're supposed to do. And you do it so well that they can't live without you, right? And so, you know, with that mindset, I did not get chewed out too often, so that it's. But it sounds a little hollow when I say it to my kids, right? Like, don't give a reason. Shut up, dad. You know, I'm tired of you talking about through 13 year NBA career, all right? I'm not a professional. You know, like.

Every time. Every time I think. One thing that's crazy for me, though, guys, is I feel like the feedback in sports versus the feedback in, like, everywhere else. It's like the biggest barbell distribution I've ever seen. Like, to me, youth sports feedback is like. It's actually harsher than what I received at 11, 12 years old. Like, it's much more serious than what I saw at 10 or 12. And the school feedback or like the non sports feedback is like, nowhere compared to where it was before. You know what I'm saying? And so it's this. That, to me, is the craziest thing I'm sure I've mentioned this to you guys before, but it's. This article is very affecting to me. That was one time, it was in the Economist magazine. It's called 1843. And the subject was, why are American kids so bad at math and so good at swimming? Okay. That was, like, the premise. And I was like, huh? Like, I wonder what that's about. And it's this British guy who wrote the article, and he basically is like, look, when I go to my kid's math class, or, like, if I see my kids, like, math homework, if they don't do it, well, basically the teacher's reaction is like, give them an easier and easier problem until they can do it and be like, you're so great. And then, like, keep on giving them problems that, like, maybe they can do. He's like, and so, like, my kid doesn't, like, actually get any feedback of, like, yo, this math is not where it needs to be. You need to work harder. Whatever. They just, like, keep on lowering the standard to, like, get it to where they can get good feedback. And they're like, the thing about swimming is the same, like, American enthusiastic spirit exists. It's a British guy kind of saying it from the outside of, like, you can do it. Let's go. You got it. He's like, but, like, the thing about it is you can't lower the standard because you'll fucking drown. Like, the water is the standard. You know what I'm saying? Like, you. And he's like, that's amazing because you have this unforgiving standard. So you can be enthusiastic, you can do all the stuff, but ultimately you got to teach the kid to swim because otherwise they'll drown. And I think that, to me, is so interesting as I think about, like, feedback, which is the thing that happens in sports is there is the existence of a high standard even today in, like, youth sports, and even higher standard than there used to be. But in the rest of, like, childhood, from people that are not the parents, a lot of times there's just, like, no high standard. And I think that is bad. Like, that, I think is really, you know, dangerous. And so, like, the article I liked so much was this idea of, like, the comp. The real competition is the water. Like, there is an objective standard. It is high. And you need to, like, learn that as a kid. And I actually worried. A lot of kids aren't learning that right now. Outside of sports.

Where does that fall?

Who.

Who should teach in that schools? The parents?

I mean, it's got to be the Parents, at the end of the day, you know.

Yeah, it's tough. I. I mean, I think, you know, like, as you're saying that, like, again, my son just took this placement. Placement exam for high school, right? So he. They. He's going to this private school, so they make you take an exam and it was like, fully comprehensive and you get your national scores back, and then you actually get your regional scores back. So, like, for the. Just the Bay Area here and again in the Peninsula, right, Like, so, like one of the most affluent areas in the world. One of the best school, like Palo Alto school district is like, yeah, off the charts. And the national score, his national scores were like, phenomenal. Phenomenal. Like, he did really, really well. Like, really lucky. He's a bright kid and, like, cares. But his regional, like, like this area, we're like, yeah, just. Just kind of a guy. And there's a real problem here in high school because there's like, so much pressure on these kids that they think, right. Like, if they don't get into the Ivy League and there's even there. There's like, real problems, right. Real mental health problems here with some high school kids at some of these very, very elite schools. And the pressure they feel that if they don't. Right. Like, if you don't get into the certain college, the rest of your life obviously is. Is, you know, taking it to an extreme. So it's funny. Like, I. I think. And this is kind of where I do view, like, the parenting thing. And I have no. I. I don't know why this hit my train of thought, but like, I. I do feel like there are things like when my son is being a knucklehead, I can be. I can get fired up. However, I do hope that when. If and when really hits the fan with him, that I don't. I absolutely don't. That I like that I swoop in at that point with nothing but support and love, right. Like, because, like, we're. It's gonna happen and I want them to know that. Right. Like, hopefully, again, not to. To. Right. And to know the difference. And so again, I. I do come back to, like, the jabbing and like, the healthy, healthy fear and being a, you know, again, a catalyst as a parent or a coach or a boss, and then knowing the difference as well. Right. Like, again, like, kids need feedback, but at the same time, right. Like, I. I think whenever, you know, it does become serious that you. Hopefully you, like, you know that like, and our whole. This is like the yin and yang that we Talk a lot about demanding and supportive, right? Like, that's where hopefully you step in with the love.

Is that pressure probably the biggest reason why it's hard to give our kids feedback?

That's feedback? Yeah. Hell yeah.

Is it, is it the pressure or is it something else?

Well, I think you're scared that you've, you'll cross a line, right? Your kids, you know, I guess, yeah, for sure.

I mean, that's like a dev. I mean, you don't even allow yourself to think about causing that kind of stress, mental stress on your kid, you know what I'm saying? And like, I, I, I think that's a big driver. I also, Alex, totally agree with you. And I was, as you were talking, I was thinking, like, yeah, like, and it depends on the kid, right? It depends on the person. Like, you know, totally. I would imagine. I mean, I know this. When I was growing up, like, my brother and I were really different and we were parented differently. And I think in a good way, like, I think there, my brother needed less, like, ass kicking, and he probably needed more like, hey, man, like, chill out, you're doing great. Like, you know what I'm saying?

Totally.

And it also, like, evolved over time. So I think it does depend. And then, Shane, I guess I think, I think it's like, almost incomprehensible, like, to, to be fearful of putting on additional pressure on a kid who already is, you know, like that, that's like, scary, you know, because, like, there's nothing worse than thinking you're making it worse for your kid in that dimension. I think there's probably even more than that, too, which is just this natural instinct to, like, protect because you love them so much, you know, But I'm sure part of it is this fear of adding to the baseline pressure that they might already feel.

Yeah, I feel that with my son, you know, I'm his coach. And so I try to choose my words very, very carefully, you know, And Alex is your, you know, your young quarterback, you know, gets higher and higher and higher in terms of level of play. It's, you know, you become much more aware of that. Much more. Much more. And it's really hard. It's really hard. Am I perfect? No. But I'm glad I'm at least thinking about it and aware of that.

I think you guys also have it harder. Sorry, Alex. I was going to say I think you guys have it harder on a few dimensions, but certainly in that your profession was so visible and so obvious and frankly, like, the fact that there's some fame associated with that. I think there's much more obvious pressure that could get created through that than like, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like in our house, like, that just doesn't exist in the same fashion. Like, there might be, there's pressure from other sources, but it's not the same.

Yeah. You know, I was just wondering. Yeah, like, Shane, like you. You meant. Like, I know you're doing a little coaching with your son. Like, and I, I think about this all the time in this exact regard. Like, taking it, being careful not to cross a line. But like your son, the back of his jersey says Badier, right? Like, you go, you're there. If you're on the bench or in the stands, like you, you're tall man, you stick out like, you know, like it's they, they. You're recognizable. Like, again. And like, I'm sure he hears, hey, that's, you know, that's Badier's kid. Or like, you know, like, do you. I struggle with it and how to handle it. You know, it's not something that I grew up with, so, I don't know. Is it something you. Yeah.

You know, I try to impress on him that in a lot of ways you're, you're lucky that everyone's trying to go at your neck. You know, you think about Bronnie James, all right? Bronnie has never played a high school game where someone's not trying to, to kick his ass just to say, hey, I kicked LeBron's son's ass. You know, and so, you know, two things happen. Yeah. Yeah. You get an armor and you get used to taking everyone's best shot. And you have an amazing confidence that, you know, everyone's going at you because of your last name. No fault of your own. And I took their best shot. And I still perform well. I still, I still won.

Right?

That's an amazing, that's an amazing conflict confidence builder, right? You can take on the world, all right, or it can, it can overwhelm you, right? And so like, I, I try to tell myself, like, I can't go out there and play the game anymore. I'm, I'm done, you know, so this is your journey and you're going to own it and it's going to be very different from mine. And that's cool, that, that's great and that's exciting. I'm, I'm there to support you. You know, I, I gave you, I gave you a, you know, a 500 pound rock. You got to carry around every time you walk in the gym that they'll know who you are and expect their best. All right? Because they want to say they, they kick, you know, my son's ass and, and so again. But that's, he's lucky. That's, that's a, that's, that's a, that's a fail safe mechanism. Like not, there's nothing fatal if a guy, you know best, him in basketball, you know, but he understands the, the, you know, the crux of competition and, and hunger and he gets to see it. And if, if he had the last name of, of Jones or, or, or Stevenson, he would, he would, wouldn't get that same competition every single day. So part of me feels bad, but part of me also says good. All right, what are you gonna do with it? Barbecue or mildew? You know, we always say barbecue or mildew. What do you think?

I think there's a lot of wisdom there, man, to like, take it to the gratefulness side. Because as I think about pressure, like, again, I just feel like it's a coin and it takes you one of two sides and again you do the, the, the, the poor me, why me? Right? Like fear thing or you're the, that, the grateful for it. Right. And I think it's such the healthier approach to it, to pressure and, and like anxiousness that can come with that. And so I, I, I like that, I like that a lot. Right like that, you know, you're, you're unique and in some ways it's lucky.

I actually in my heart think that one of the things that I agree with you, I think that your repositioning of it as to have the gratitude is correct, but it's not easy, you know what I'm saying? So I like that. I also think to me, I think professional pressure or personal pressure, they're just different than like pressure that moves onto your kids because it just, it's so much more intense. And so that is one thing where like my kids have pressure from lots of sources. I think one thing that I admire about both of you guys is you're dealing with your kids having pressure from a different source than what we have. And I do think that the visibility of that, you know, they just have to grow up quicker on that one dimension, you know. And so I think that you guys, it's not, it's not the same as professional or other pressure because it's about the thing we care about more than anything else, you know, and so I, I think that that's something that. You guys. You guys have. You know, that is different.

Thank you. You know, to all the parents out there. Remember? And I. I said at the same time, I'm on stage of corporate speech. Everyone wants to know how to raise a championship athlete. Okay? 70% of all kids quit sports before age 14.

Yeah.

70.

Yep. That's crazy.

The number one reason why they quit is the ride home from their games. So if you remember nothing else from this episode of Glue Guys, you know, just remember to shut it on the way home from practice. In games.

Bob Rotella. Remember your boy, he told us. What's the best thing to say to your kid after a game? Nothing at all.

Nothing.