Jim "Bones" Mackay - The Man Behind the Masters - [Glue Guys, EP.33]

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I'll never forget what he said to me. He said, listen, man, if I'm going to win this tournament today, at some point I'm going to have to hit a great shot under a lot of pressure. I'm going to do it right now. And you know that catty voice in my head is yelling at me, get out of the way. Get out of the way.

We are privileged enough to have on maybe the most famous caddy certainly of modern golf history, Jim Bones Makai. Everybody just knows him as Bones. It's like Madonna. Just one name. I've been lucky enough to get to know Bones, been on golf trips with them, a bunch of dinners. Every bit of what you've seen of him. If you're a golf fan on tv, like this guy is that. And then some. But I think, like fitting. It's, it's, it's Masters week. So I, I mean, I feel like we kind of have to start here. You've won, you've been on the bag, man.

Oh, look at that.

What a fle.

Freaking champion. Three green jackets, dude. Like, you're in the hall of fame. You've been there, right As, I think as a spectator now as a, you know, on the TV side. Like you've just seen it in, in, in ways that none of us have. Like we only see the slow pan right on tv. Jim Nance and his amazing voice saying hello, friends. Like, you've been inside the ropes. Like. Like, really, like. No, be like, what's it like this week for the guys? Like, coming in, descending on Augusta. You have such a unique view of it, you know?

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. It's. I'm convinced that if you take everybody in the field this week and you inject them with truth serum and said, okay, pal, you can only win one major in your lifetime. What do you want it to be for everybody? It would be the Masters for a million reasons. Obviously, it's the only major championship played on the same course, you know, year in, year out. So the place just reeks of history. You want. You can't go anywhere on that golf course without, you know, thinking back as, you know, Tiger did this, Gene Sarazen did that, Jack Nicklaus, hold this putt on 16. You know, the way they run the tournament. Somebody told me a few years ago, and I assume it's true, that the Masters is so well run, that the people from Wimbledon went over there at some point and said, we've got to start running our tournament like they do. And they now run their tennis event like the Masters do their golf event, and. And they're the two best run tournaments in sports. But, you know, again, getting back to these players, they're so. So amped up to drive down Magnolia Lane. They now have underground. The new thing at Augusta this year is underground parking for the players. They feel like Shane, you know, pulling into the arena, you know, for a big game. 120 spots underground, and. And, of course, you've got the chance today. We're talking on a Tuesday. Tonight's the Champions Dinner. You know, the most coveted, you know, reservation, if you will, or dinner invitation you can possibly get in the game of golf. And those guys will be in there telling stories tonight with Ben Crenshaw at the helm. It's just. It's amazing. And I think in a year where everybody's just hankering for this potential. Scottie Scheffler, Rory McIlroy, Sunday showdown. And, you know, with Rory being the real sentimental favorite this year, it's just lining up to be one of the great masters of all time, hopefully.

The thing about the Champions Dinner, I was just thinking about Alex. It's like the Bones. One thing we talk about a lot on our podcast is like, the key to happiness is, like, earned success, earned inclusion. The Champions Dinner is, to me, the freaking ultimate version. Like, you cannot come unless you've won it here. And then if you do win it, though, for the rest of your life, you get to be part of the most exclusive earned club that there is. There's no money. There's nothing that can get you in there.

You know, that's exactly right. Nothing will get you in the door. And to me, like, if you're one of these generational players that didn't, you know, it didn't happen for, you know, if you're Greg Norman or Ernie Ells or David Duvall, any one of a number of guys, you know, Tom Weisskopf back in the day, it's, It's. This has got to be the worst day of the year. I mean, it's got to really sting that you were like, this incredibly talented player and that these guys are getting together and it just didn't happen for you. Things didn't fall into place. And, and that's, you know, where Rory is right now. And Rory is one of the most popular guys in the sport. Sport. He's obviously a guy that's gone to bat these last few years for the PGA Tour in what they've been have going on with. With rival tours. And, you know, Rory's very, very popular amongst his peers. He's a tremendous player. But, you know, in terms of kind of getting off the schneide, you know, he, you know, none of us are getting any younger. And I think so many people are rooting for Rory to, To, you know, it'd be a very interesting champions dinner next year if Rory were to win and, and have that, you know, Northern Irish tent, to the. To the dinner menu that. That night for the champions, and, and, and hopefully it'll all work out for him at some point here soon.

Take us through. Like, Rory, like, right now, we're all athletes. We're all superstitious, all of us, right? Like, I'm sure at this point, we've all gone through every iteration of lucky rabbit's foot, all right? Four leaf clover, you name it. Like, trying to change the mojo strap. Like, you know, they've come in amped up. They've come in, you know, under. Under the radar. They've. They've come in peaking. They've come in, you know, not playing for three. Like, they've tried everything. Is there anything more to try that.

It's a great question. I mean, I looked at my wife today because he had his press conference today, and he had a haircut. I was like, is this his lucky haircut? I don't know. I mean, I saw him in Houston a few weeks ago, and he definitely looked a little bit different today on tv, he was all tidied up. But it's, it's a great point. I mean, I noticed in the last couple of weeks, you know, you know, you get these, these websites now that track these guys planes. And Rory's been to Augusta, I think, twice in the week or two preceding this event. So maybe that's this year's lucky rabbit's foot. I mean, maybe he's not going to treat it like a regular tour event. He's going to get in there early. He'll have so much less pressure on him Tuesday and Wednesday to, in a sense, accumulate knowledge. And, and when you have a washout like we did yesterday on Monday, when nobody really could do anything because the weather's so bad, Rory's probably thinking, yeah, man, those two trips to Augusta are going to help me just find. I'm going to be that much more ahead of the curve. Given what I picked up on those two trips.

What's the most important thing players have to pick up on, like today and tomorrow and the front nine of Thursday? Like what, what are caddies in tune with? What are players in tune with? That's a little bit different maybe this year than last year or a couple of years ago.

I got to think it's the ability of Augusta national to have the course change radically in terms of how it's playing. I mean, we just got, I don't know, an inch or two of rain. It absolutely was a soaker yesterday. But this is Augusta National. They've got those sub air systems. The greens can get crispy in a hurry. It's supposed to be fairly dry now and 70 and sunny for a few days. And it's so it's, I think it's the ever changing golf course. You know, you're looking for a certain bounce that you don't get because it firmed up quicker than you thought. You were. You were, you were playing to a back flag on, on one the first day, and you thought that you could fly it back there and keep it on the back patio and keep the ball around the hole. And all of a sudden you, you realize you can't. So you're looking for changes in the golf course. I mean, back in the day, they would change the MO cuts, you know, almost overnight. Where you went from chipping down grain, which is so much easier than chipping into the grain. And I've seen it before. I've caddied for players in the masses before, where guys have kind of had a freak out on the golf courses. Wait a second 24 hours ago, it was not like this. What is going on right now? Crazy Augusta national, you know, it's a little more player friendly now in terms of doing things along those lines, but it can change quickly. And you better keep up with what's happening out there or you're going to get bitten.

The role of a caddy, like, the job of a caddy is so insanely unique, right? Like, your job is to be the ultimate teammate, right? Like, in a lot of ways, like the ultimate glue guy. Like, your job is to make your teammate better. That is your job, right? Like, and you do it so many different ways. You wear a thousand different hats. And I think you mentioned it right there. Like, you have to be one. You have to be observant, right? Like, because you're not just carrying the bag and doing the yardages and like, literally the meat and potatoes of the job. But you're, you're a psychologist, right? Like, you're a mental coach, you're a teammate, you're a travel partner. Like, you got. There are no home games in golf, right? Like, you guys are on the road all the time, and then there are so many ups and downs. Is my guy on a heater? Is he struggling? How did yesterday go? How did today go, let alone all of a sudden? You said he freaks out, right? Because something catches him off guard and you got to be there in a moment's notice. And I can, I mean, there's a thousand questions in that right there, but, like, how did you come into that? How did you find your own way and style of that, right? Like, you've been doing it as long as anybody and better than anybody. And, like, can you just take us.

Like, you can pick some stories, Bones. Like, I mean, we want to hear, like, what's it like? You know, we don't. Like, what is it like to be the psychologist? Take the downgrade example. Rough is different than it was yesterday. What are you doing in that moment?

Well, certainly in a situation like that, you know, you're going to put your arm around the guy and hopefully say something funny and have a laugh about it. I mean, to Alex's point, you know, cadding's like 10 different, you know, part time jobs, you know, all put together that equal this, this responsibility that, that they and we had over the years. And it's fascinating. You just don't want everyone to get asked a question that you can't answer. I mean, certainly you're going to have your opinions about club selection, and you better be right 99% of the time, or you're going to get sent to the bus stations. I like to say they're not going to keep you around if you can't get that critical part of the relationship correct. But, you know, it's little things, too. I'll never forget caddying for Phil at Shinnecock in the 1995 U.S. open. And he was playing incredibly well on Thursday. He played in the afternoon. And this is back before, you know, nutrition was as big a part of golf as it is now, as, I'm sure, other sports. And he turned to me on about the 12th or 13th hole and said, hey, man, I was a little nervous before we played today. I didn't eat lunch. Do we have any food in the bag? And we didn't have a thing in the bag. That was before guys did, you know, now it's like a grocery store in there. When I. Justin Thomas, it was incredible the amount of food you would ultimately carry for situations such as this. But next thing you know, I'm over by the spectators and I'm giving a kid $100 to go buy a chicken sandwich and telling him to eat the change. Just get this thing back. I don't care what you got to do in that line. Get that sandwich back here as fast as you possibly can so I can get a little. Little something in my player. So it's. It's. There's so much going on out there, whether it's something as kind of trivial. Trivial as that, or me being in the pine straw with Phil, the 2010 masters, when, you know, potentially the tournament's on the line, and he's thinking about doing something very, very aggressive that, you know, turned out to be, you know, arguably the most famous shot he hit in his career. You have to basically find out when you talk to these guys, are they 80% in? Are they 100% in? And ultimately, it kind of goes from there. You know, the thing about Phil, as compared to some guys out there, is Phil. Phil was a massive scoreboard watcher, as is Tiger, in my experience out there. You know, you get guys that don't want anything to do with it. You get guys like Tiger and Phil, in my experience, where you could go out there and blindfold them, certainly Phil, and say, okay, recite the leaderboard to me. And he could do it. You know, VJs this, David Duvall's that. You know, you know, Tiger's this. I'm here. And so Phil was the guy that always wanted to get his nose out in front. And so in 2010, he'd won the Masters a couple of times. He was right there, you know, playing on Sunday. And so he basically couldn't get out in front in terms of catching. Who was leading. I think KJ Choi was leading the tournament at the time. Maybe a couple other guys were in serious contention. But we finally got to the 13th hole there on the Sunday. He drove the ball through the fairway and, you know, I get out there, look at the line, so to speak, the ball sitting cleanly on some pine straws. But. But he's, he's got two trees in front of him that are a little bit staggered. And it looked on TV like the gap was 2, 3ft, but it was far, far smaller than that. And so certainly as a caddy, I was very concerned, but it was very interesting. Only twice in my 25 year career with Phil did he do what he did to me that day, which was before I could even give him the yardage, which was 204 yards. He says to me, hey, man, I'm going for this in two. No matter what, I'm going here. I'm like, wow, you know, it's like, you know, this was the first of the two times it happened a few years later at a US Open. But he says, I'm going here. I'm just letting you know, don't try to talk me out of this. I'm going to. So I appreciate what he's saying. He's kind of in the mood. He's ready to go. He's ready to hit his shot. I gave him the yardage. We talk five iron, six iron. We settle on six, and we're now waiting for the green to clear. KJ Choi is in the group in front of us. So KJ Choi gets over the six footer and he misses. And we figure it's for birdie, but we kind of. We hear this weird kind of mumbling, if you will, within the patrons. So I just turned to the cameraman behind us. I said, you know, what's up? Something's up. He said, yeah, that was for par. KJ Made six there. You guys are now tied for the lead. So that was kind of my entree to go back to Phil and say, hey, man, you know, you're tied for the lead now. Does that affect anything you want to do here? And I'll never forget what he said to me. He said, listen, man, he says, if I'm going to, if I'm going to win this tournament today, at some point, I'm going to have to hit a great shot under a lot of pressure. I'm going to do it right now. That catty voice in my head is yelling at me, get out of the way, get out of the way. You know, so I, you know, he takes the six iron, I get out of his way, hopefully, and he hits it, you know, six iron to four feet. And ultimately didn't make the eagle putt, but made birdie and went on and won the tournament. But it was a, it was a huge, huge moment for him. You know, it was, in a sense, hitting that shot was, I think, intimidating to the guy we were playing against. I think we were playing with Lee Westwood. I think, you know, a shot like that's going to have far reaching effect as to what goes on the rest of the day. And he won his third Masters a couple hours after that.

The cool thing about Augusta, if you've never been. And the only time I've been to Augusta was in 2001, all right? You guys were in contention when Tiger won. It was a week after we won the National Championship. And what struck me was just exactly what you talked about. The sounds, the sounds of Augusta are so unique. You know, they're not a ton of scoreboards out there.

They're.

They're placed in very strategic spots, but, you know, by the size of the roar or the size of the murmur, who is doing what. So I know exactly what you say when there's a murmur and people are just like. You're like, oh, someone just dumped it in the water. Someone just, you know, bladed it somewhere. But like the roars for Phil and Tiger, you knew immediately from across the grounds, oh, Phil just did something. And then everyone would just turn and look at the scoreboard and just wait for that, that red, that red number to go up. And everyone, you know, it goes, oh, yeah, yeah. It's the craziest thing. And I've never been to another golf tournament or any other sporting event. It's like that where you feel and can hear the success and the failures and the drama, what goes on, like, you know, a half a mile, mile away. Is that right?

That's 100% right. And to your point about the guys in the scoreboard, sometimes for emphasis, when you hear a roar and you're not sure what happened, they'll hold it. They'll. The scoreboard will open up where they're ultimately going to put a number, and then they'll slam it shut just for effect, just to get people that much more riled up. I'VE seen that happen over the years. But you're right, it's, you know, certainly back in the Tiger Phil heyday, I'll never forget. I think in 2009, they played together on Sunday and they were, they were quite a ways back. Not, not out of contention. But we're going to have to do something spectacular. And I think Phil shot 31 on the front nine and Tiger shot 32. And it was absolute bedlam out there. And, you know, they ended up not finishing off the tournament. I think it was year when Angel Cabrera went on to win. But I'll never forget being out there that day, being out there. We were paired with Tiger when he won the Tiger Slam in what I think that would be the 2002 or 2001, where he won his fourth straight major, you know, finishing with Augusta and the Masters. And that was an unbelievable day. He did something that day I'll never forget. He, you know, he's playing along and he was, you know, kind of one or two ahead and just kind of managing his game and being Tiger. And we got to the ninth green and you guys have been there in the ninth grade, is very exposed. It's on the top of the property up there by the clubhouse, and it's one of the windier spots on the golf course. And he had a six footer for par there, and he, and he stood over this putt and I'm just standing on the side of the green. Phil had already finished the hole and out of nowhere, like this rogue gust just comes up the hill and just hammers everybody. So hats are flying and papers flying. And Tiger's literally over this putt, about to take the putter back and it hits him and he never comes out of his stance. It just kind of, you know, just kind of steadies himself, gets back over it, stands up, never, never moved his feet and hit this putt that was incredibly quick. And it went, you know, trickle, trickle, trickle, went right in the center. And I remember thinking, man, anybody else in the game would have, would have backed out of that, would have done something, would have just hit reset. And I asked him about it over a beer at a Ryder cup, you know, a few years later, it's like, just tell me about that putt. And he goes, man, he goes, I was just in a place at that time where I knew I was going to make it. I just didn't want to waste anybody's time. Man, you are unbelievable. Tiger, he's just, you know, it was amazing to be out there Certainly with a player as great as Phil, a generational player, but to be out there and watch arguably the best of all time do his thing.

Hey, Bones. In that situation. So I watched actually something on Twitter the other day where Tiger was talking about that round and he was saying that he and Phil, like did not speak to each other during the round or anything like that, but they would, like be next to each other a lot of times. He was talking about on 12. On 12, sorry, not 12. I think on 13, Phil hit a mashed his driver and then Tiger hit a three wood and he ended up out driving him with his three wood. And he said that Phil said to him as they were walking up the fairway, hey, do you always hit your 3 wood that far? Is the only thing he'd like said to him that day. And Tiger said, no, I usually hit it a little further.

Right.

Like the true, just the most like smart ass response that you could have, you know. And so what you just said, though, reminds me of if you're the teammate to the golfer going up against, you know, the greatest of all time or one of, if not the greatest, right there, what do you do? What's the mindset? How do you be a great teammate to your, to your golfer in that moment when they're going up against him? Are you ignoring him? Are you pumping him up? What are you doing?

It's a great question because there were so many, you know, Tiger was. Tiger was so intimidating on so many fronts, to your point. I mean, Tiger was, you know, at some point I thought to myself, you know, he's arguably the best putter. He's arguably got the best short game, best iron player, you know, drives it. And he's an absolute killer between the years. I mean, you know, it's not a surprise the guy did what he did and he intended, intimidated as many people as he ultimately did. But, you know, I know there's. There's been instances where players, you know, didn't watch him hit shots, just kind of turn their backs on him as he played because that swing, in a sense, could get in your head, you know, particularly when he was working with Butch. It was just, you know, it was just so incredibly, aesthetically beautiful to watch Tiger swing the golf club. Again, you think to yourself, how am I possibly going to beat this guy? So, you know, and it happened rarely, as we all know. But I think there's a strat. There would have been a strategy to it. You want to talk to your player, how are we going to approach this today? You know, are we going to, you know, let the guy get 30 yards off the tee and do our thing? Are we going to, you know, get out in front of him? You know, whatever the case may be? It's, it's. He was something to deal with and he was, he was incredibly intimidating. Not to repeat myself. And, you know, there was no surefire answer as to what to do. I think it depended on the individual. But you had to do something.

I mean, it's fascinating because, like, it's so unique in golf, right? Like, golf, it's the field. Like, that's what I think of, right? There's hundreds of golfers that are in contention. And yet in your prime with Phil, like, there was this heated rivalry, like, which doesn't happen in golf, right? Like that it was like the two best players in the world forever. And I think all of us, you know, that are of similar age, like, when Tiger came on the scene, he changed golf, right? And I think a lot of people obviously pulling for him, but for me as a San Diego kid, like Phil. Phil's from San Diego, man. Like, so there was a big part of me that like, was like always in his corner and pulling for him. And again, for you to be a part of that rivalry, right? And it's obviously changed a bunch over the years and I think so cool that both those guys now have such great respect for each other and that their friendship, like, there's a friendship there even now. But like, like, what was that like going at it with him for all those years, right? Like again, and when you finally did get paired, right? Because it wasn't. It's not like that happens that often, but especially on a weekend or a Sunday and, you know, dealing with the crowds and the hoopla and like, yep, you know, trying to calm your guy down and get your game face on, especially over the course of a five hour round.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it was amazing. And, and you know, you referenced San Diego, Phil's hometown. We, you know, Tiger was so darn popular back then. I remember one time playing, we got paired with him or maybe near him, and some of his fans would drop back to kind of not necessarily heckle Phil, but I remember there was a guy that had like the famous Tiger head cover, and he had it on the end of a golf shaft and Phil would walk through a green to a tee and this guy would hold the head cover over Phil's head as he was walking, like, yeah, this is Tiger's back here with you. As in addition to being in another group. So I remember looking at this guy this one day and going, what in the world are you doing? He goes, you know, I'm just, I'm supporting Tiger. And it's, you know, no matter where you meant went, no matter where you went, no matter what you did, it was, it was always remarkable to have those kind of rivalry days with Tiger. And, you know, I remember one year we showed up again to San Diego, and Tiger was in the process of trying to break Byron Nelson's record for the most wins in a row, which I think is 11, and Tiger won something like six, six or seven. And Phil ended up beating him in San Diego that week. And I remember how great it felt. You know, you show up on Thursday and forget, you know, CBS or NBC being there, you know, Good Morning America's there and the Today show and, you know, CNN and all this stuff, and the whole world was watching, and it just seemed so much bigger because of what Tiger brought to the table. But, you know, I will say again about Tiger, he was great, you know, through those, you know, certainly he and Phil were a little bit oil and water in terms of how they got along back in those days. But I remember we played with him at the Deutsche bank in 2007, and Phil actually got the better of him. It might have been the first time Phil actually beat him kind of head to head playing on a Sunday. And we were on the 16th or 17th hole, and I was getting some water, and Tiger came over to me. He said, hey, man, no matter how this plays out in the next hour, I just want you to know this was a lot of fun today. And I thought to myself, you know, that's really, really cool. And an hour later, you know, Phil had won that tournament. But it speaks volumes, in my opinion, for how classy Tiger was and what it ultimately meant to him as an individual to have people step up and take him on. And, you know, he, you know, it wasn't going to work out all the time for him, but he just appreciated the rivalry and the intense battles that took place on some Sundays.

That's how I feel about Ravi when.

We play golf, I think.

Got me, Bones. He got me last. He got me last time. He beat me for the first time. And, you know, I'm just appreciative of the, the competition.

Right, Bones? One thing I'll tell you is I, I, I inadvertently talk shit to Shane one time while playing golf, and it did not end well. And so even after the win, you know, when everyone was Asking me, all of our friends about it, I was like, just happy to have the opportunity to compete against, against my friend Shane. Yeah, nothing to say. Just. Just happy that we got a chance to go out there. So that's my strategy, you know, no bulletin board material.

He earned it.

I think the thing that, like, sometimes gets forgotten about in that rivalry. Tiger always gets talked about his competitive nature. But I think, like, again, rivalries only happen when there's, like, it's. There's two sides of it. And I think Phil's competitiveness or anybody, like, I've been lucky enough to be around Phil a little bit and play golf with him. Like, this guy is insanely competitive himself, right? And like, fears nothing. And so I think the cool thing is like, that again. And I know they were like oil and water. And for even a long time, you know, Phil obviously kind of wore the, the, the, the, the villain hat, you know, early on in those days. But just looking back and appreciating how rare that was, you know, to have two guys.

How do you manage your competitiveness, Bones? Like, you're a competitive guy. You're out there, like, so you're in the middle of this, you know, this crazy battle, you know, how do you keep the emotional control and control your competitive nature in the majors when everyone's, you know, looking at you? I mean, that'd be a fascinating study. I'm smart enough to figure it out.

I have a. I have a related question after that because, dude, it's even harder because, you know, you're, you're, you're not the one swinging the club, right? So you have this crazy competitive nature, but you are reliant on somebody else, too. It's like the ultimate team thing. So how do you manage that?

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I picked up very quickly with Phil that he was competitive enough for the both of us. So it was almost good for me to kind of take a back seat in terms of that and kind of just be. I needed to be the. I needed to be the chill guy in that relationship. I mean, Phil was much like Tiger, I think it's fair to say. I mean, they wanted to win. I mean, I said on TV last week about Scheffler, you know, if a genie came out of the bottle on Thursday morning on the first tee and said, said, hey, by the way, I'll give you second place money right now, you can take your $900,000 and go to Cabo. You know, Phil and Tiger would both tell you to jump in a Lake, you know what I mean? They don't want anything to do with 2nd or 10th or 15th or 40th. They want to win and only win. And, you know, when Phil was Phil. When Phil came out of college out of Arizona state at age 21, 22 in 1992, he told me very early on, he said, listen, I'm going to win a lot. And he didn't say, I want to win a lot. He said, I'm, you know, very matter of factly, he said to me, I'm going to win a lot. Now, certainly this is before we kind of heard of Tiger, and in terms of what he was going to bring the table three or four years down the road. But. But. And here we are in 2025, and Phil and I were winning something like 45 or six events, which is a staggering amount, you know, especially in the Tiger era, to have done that. And, of course, Tiger went on. I think he's at 82 now. So I needed to compliment Phil as best as I possibly could. And it was important for me to be the chill one. I mean, I was certainly incredibly amped up. I mean, anytime he played in contention or a Saturday or Sunday or won an event, I didn't sleep for two or three days after it because I had all that stuff in me that I couldn't get out that I can't show on the golf course. I can't really pump my fist or yell, you know, yell stuff out there when things aren't. Aren't going our way. So, you know, you try and manage that the best you can. And I was, you know, the thing that I'm really appreciative of, as I look back on it now, is. And again, I. Again, talking about so many similarities now between Tiger and Phyllis. They both were very, very responsible players. They took ownership of everything that happened out there, and that made my job way, way, way easier. And, you know, to put that in context, what I mean is, if I'm on the 18th hole with Phil and he's thinking seven iron and I'm thinking six iron, and I talk him into the six, and he hits it in the hot dog stand over the green and makes a bogey, you know, he. As bad as I would feel about that situation, he was always the guy that would turn to me and say, that's okay. I'm the guy that takes the club out of the bag, and ultimately the responsibility lies with me. And that opened me up to be a far, far better caddy than. Than I would have been. If you're kind of walking around on eggshells or if you end up having an adversarial relationship with the guy you're working with.

Hey, Bones, on that. So a couple things. One, it reminds me, it's so interesting, like, the taking the responsible part, like, what an important part about being a leader for that person, right? And makes you a better person at your job. So that's a cool lesson, and, like, I really appreciate that. I have a weird analogy that I don't know if you think has any relevance, and you can tell me if it doesn't, but there's this part of me that feels like caddying is a little bit like parenting, right. Where, like, you. Like, so much of my happiness depends on, like, how my kids are doing and how they're doing in their lives. But I don't control it. Right. You know, I can give them advice, but ultimately, they got to go out and live it. And so one thing that, when I think about caddying, it's. There's an interesting parallel, right, which is that, you know, your income, your success, you know, is related to somebody who, like, you don't control it, but you can influence it and help. Do you think there's, like, any analogy there that. That holds?

The thing about Phil was we were only four or five years apart in age. You get a lot of situations now where, you know, caddies can be. When I worked for Justin Thomas for two years, I was darn near twice as old as him. And I think in a situation like that, it comes to the forefront a little bit more. But Phil and I were both kind of young and going on this little adventure together at about the same time in our lives. So, you know, we were just kind of figuring out things for ourselves and, you know, traveling the world a little bit, and, you know, he's won in tournaments, and it was this incredible experience. But, you know, Phil was a very. Phil knew what he wanted. Phil was the guy, I think, in 1980, he watched Ballesters win the Masters. I think maybe on a Monday, there was some rain that week, and he turned to his mom and said, that's exactly what I'm going to do for a living, what that guy just did right there. And the guy goes on to win the Masters three times. He knew what he wanted. He knew, you know, kind of, in a sense, how to get there. And he was a very responsible, very mature golfer, which was, you know, a big part of what made him so good.

Bones, you famously had one veto vote a year okay, what was your best veto? Can you walk us through that moment?

We'll walk you through the first one. And it was. It was kind of funny in that, you know, Phil and I. Phil had a sense of humor about the fact that he was just ultra, ultra aggressive on the golf course. And he would say to me, says, hey, man, I know I'm going to do something kind of wacky time to time, and I'll give you this one veto a year. And I would jokingly say, can I get one a week or one a day? And he said, smartass, you can get one a year. So, you know, he gave me this thing, and I had it in my back pocket. And we were playing in New Orleans one year, and he drove it in the right rough of this golf course called English Turn Outside of New Orleans. And he says to me, he's got a lot, you know, he's got. He's in the, in the trees, in the rough, and he's got water between him, him and the, and the, and the grain. He says, I'm going to take a six iron out and I'm going to skip it across the lake a couple of times up onto the plank and onto the green. I'm like, what? You know, we weren't in first place by any means, but we were hanging around in like, 20th or 30th, and I, you know, I never heard of anything like this. So, you know, I couldn't get my veto out of my back pocket fast enough. So, you know, I say veto. He's, you know, he's disgusted that I'm using it. I said, you know, but, you know the rules of the veto. You can't argue with me here. You know, we have to do what I want to do here. It's my one chance all year to shine here. Let's pitch this ball out sideways into the fairway and go about it from there. So he did pitch the ball out sideways into the fairway and ended up getting the ball up and down from 100 yards for par. So we were walking down the very next hole, right? The 10th hole. I was kind of patting myself on the back, and he was like, what are you so damn happy about? I said, man, that was great veto usage back there. Did you not notice that? And he said, he said, you're an idiot. He says, I'm going to do something way dumber than that before the years.

Bones, I have to tell you, as a golf fan, I'm kind of pissed because I think that if he would have tried to skip it across the water that have been an all time highlight. If you would have, if you would have just let him do it.

I would let him.

You know, come on. For the sake of the golf fan.

You're right. As I. You're earring. That's a great point. As I robbed people of an all time SportsCenter highlight by doing that for sure.

You were one of the first caddies to meticulously follow the win the club performance trajectory long before it was, it was sexy. So you were like, you were like the no stat all star for caddies. In, in a lot of way you were a pioneer. And so walk us through a time when you had the data, but it went completely against your gut. And, and how did you decide what you, what did you follow? Your gut or the data?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I, I would, I would say one of the, you know, I'm going to reference Tiger and Phil again. And they were, they were so alike in some respects and so different in others. And Phil was a big adrenaline guy. So we would get out there in tournaments where he was playing well, you know, particularly event like the Masters where you're like, okay, you know, here we are at Sunday at Augusta. His name's towards the top of the leaderboard. And you know, this guy's, in a sense, he's living out his dream right now. He's, you know, this is what he's lived for, for since he was, you know, five, six years old when he made this comment to his mom about what he wanted to do for a living. So, you know, Phil would get all of these juices running through his body and he would start hitting the golf ball. Crazy distances as compared to what he normally did. And there was, there was a Masters where he drove the ball in the 15th fairway. As you guys know, it's a downhill second shot on a par 5 over water with water behind the green. And you know, I've got the data in front of me, you know, you know, from a pat from past masters, you know, 178 yards down the hill, a little bit of helping breeze, you know, it's a comfortable six or a hard seven and those are the clubs. And you ultimately hit eight iron on the green again because he's so jacked up. And so that's an instance where we went with the adrenaline and it worked out nicely. And then I remember reading one year Tiger, you know, played really well in the Masters and the press was asking him about a shot that he also hit in the 15th hole. And they said, well, you know, you went straight into the bag there, and you hit. Hit your six iron, you know, to 10ft there for eagle. How'd you know it was a six iron? And Tiger said, because I had the exact same yardage on Wednesday in a practice round, you know, as I had that day on Sunday. And I knew. So I already knew the club section. I thought to myself, isn't that fascinating? I wouldn't even record stuff that went on in practice rounds with Phil because, again, he got so juiced up once the tournament was played, particularly if he got in contention. And Tiger hit the ball exactly the same distance on Sunday as he did on Wednesday, and Phil hit it much, much further. So that's certainly an instance that shows how different they were in terms of how their bodies worked and how they were on the golf course.

And Phil was such a. You know, I think there's. Even just as I watch from an outside perspective, there are certainly players that are a little more mechanical, I think, in their game, right? Like Phil. Phil, like, would be the other side. These guys, like an artist, right? Like shot shaper. Like, you know, again, he just sees things and can pull it off and maneuver the ball, and then you throw in. You know, obviously, I think huge moments and adrenaline, and this is a guy that can narrow his focus, right? Like, given. Given the situation. And so it's like a whole nother puzzle for you to, like, take in in these big moments, to, like, flip it a little bit. Like, Phil. Phil gets off to this crazy career, right? He's winning these tournaments, but the narrative for a long time, and this guy was runner up six times in the US Open, right? He was runner up in the PGA as well, and the Open Championship. In some ways, it probably hurts even more, right? Being that close and not getting it for so long. Like, how did you handle those situations as a guy? Like, again, you're with him through these moments, and you're. You're just like. You're burning the edges, right? And you just can't. You can't. You can't get home.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, Tiger comes out and wins the Masters in 1997 is what, a 21 year old, I think, and with it, you know, going away and. And, you know, Phil was having trouble getting over the hump. And, you know, like to use a specific tournament as an example, when. When Phil played in the 1999 US Open and we lost to Payne Stewart on the 18th, Greenware paint up the hill to beat Phil by one. Phil's wife was at home about to go into labor. You know, that. That stung, you know. You know, people talk about Phil's near misses and about, you know, the tournaments that didn't work out. And, you know, certainly there's a couple that come to mind, certainly, like Wingfoot. And I tell people all the time, say, yeah, you know, Wingfoot was. Wingfoot sucked. That was really hard to take. But it was much, much harder to take when you played really well and didn't win. And there were a couple of instances like that, particularly Pinehurst in 1999, where you feel like you've done everything you can, where you shot a score much lower than you thought it was going to take to win the tournament at the beginning of the week. And it doesn't happen for you. So it was hard. And again, you know, it was at a time when Tiger was picking these things off left and right, like he was picking an apple off a tree. And, you know, he just made it look so easy. And obviously it's not. And one of the things that I remember reading, I think it was it was Duvall. Duvall or Tiger said in a press conference once. And that was. And I used to tell Phil this, you know, to win a major, two things have to happen. You have to play incredibly well, and at some point during the week, you have to get an extremely lucky break. And I remember going back over, you know, tournaments that Phil had played and thinking to myself, we've got a lucky break coming down the pike here at some point. And in 2004, you know, when Phil finally got over the hump, he was playing the Masters there, I think, on a Friday or a Saturday. And he was hitting a four iron into the 13th green, and he kind of overcooked it from left to right. And the ball got on the green for a while, but just made its way down off the side and it banked down into Race Creek. And you hear the big moan from the galleries, as Shane was saying earlier. You know, the galleries tell you exactly what's going on there. Excuse me. I just say the patrons, and we walk up there to take a drop, and, you know, you're thinking about trying to make five, but you're probably going to make six. And there was this manhole COVID side piece of grass in the middle of this creek.

Oh, my gosh.

Beautiful, beautiful green grass on it. And Phil's ball was in the absolute middle of it. I mean, I don't know how a ball went across the water and got on this piece of turf. You know, it was this island of turf in the middle of Raised Creek. And we remember looking at this thing going, holy cow. And he climbed in there, he darn near chipped it in for eagle. He chipped up there about six inches from the hole. And we walked to the next tee, and we said, that's our lucky break. And, you know, two days later, he won his first major. So it's. It's funny how golf can be. And certainly to your point, some of those losses early on were incredibly hard to stomach, but it made. Made the wins in 2004 and beyond that that much sweeter.

No doubt, Bones.

You know, I remember the Payne Stewart win when he grabbed Phil's face and he said, you're going to be a father. You know, like, it. Like, it's such a crazy moment in retrospect, particularly given that Phil ended up winning so many. But in that moment, just, like, pain thinking about him of, like, how painful it'd be, but then reminding him of, like, dude, like, there's this crazy thing that's going to happen. Like, it was. That was a cool moment. As a fan, one question I have, and this is not specific to Phil, but, you know, when you're hanging out with the other caddies, right? You know, do you. What are you guys talking about when you guys are hanging out yourselves? Are you feeling, you know, one thing about glue guys, oftentimes they're underappreciated, you know, which is they know that they're really impactful, but, like, they're not getting the love that they deserve. Like, what is the beer session with the other caddies? Like, when you're. When you're in it?

Yes. It's a great question, and I think it depends on where you are in the week. So, like, if I take an example, like Michael Greller, who caves for Jordan Smith, you know, he's. He's probably. You know, he and Joe LaCava are my two closest friends that are caddies. And I would say that Michael Greller, again for Jordan, has gone out at Augusta national and has rolled more balls on those greens in terms of looking for the breaks, the subtle breaks to certain hole locations than any other caddy in the game. He's probably spent hours in the hundreds out there doing it. So if I walked up to him on Wednesday and said, hey, man, boy, that 14th green is a little bit wacky, isn't it? Let me see how your ball breaks on your green relative to what you've got in your yards book, he would laugh at me and either punch me or tell me to go, you know, go jump in the lake, because I'm not showing you anything. But, you know, we could be commiserating two days later talking about goodness knows what. So, you know, they're unique relationships. You know, none of us know what the other one's getting paid. That's kind of like the unwritten rule out there. You don't talk about things along those lines. Everybody's deal with their player is pretty much private and between. Between caddy and golfer. But, you know, my. Again, my best friends are caddies. You know, we, you know, we get together and we tell great stories and. And have a couple of beers at the end of the week, but, you know, everybody wants to win. And, you know, when. When Jordan Spieth won his masters in 2015, you know, Phil Mickelson finished second that week. And I had dinner with Michael the night before the Sunday round. And I remember, you know, just sitting at this table with him thinking, you know, this is the guy we're trying to be tomorrow. And, you know, yeah, I'm having mushroom ravioli with him right now. But, you know, all I know is, you know, we desperately want to finish first tomorrow, as does he. And, you know, Jordan ultimately got the better of us next day. But their caddy relationships are very, very unique. Sometimes you're sharing a lot, and sometimes you're sharing nothing at all.

What is the one thing about being a caddy that fans just absolutely do not understand? They get wrong 10 times out of 10.

I think certainly, you know, a lot of people assume you get paid 10% of everything. That. That's. That's a bit of a catty myth. I mean, certainly you might get paid 10% on a win, but you get paid less than that when the guy doesn't win the tournament. I remember, you know, it used to drive me nuts when I go to the Waffle House when I lived in Athens, Georgia, and some guy would come up to me and tell me exactly what I made the previous week, because he takes 10% of what he's seen in the newspaper and kind of figured it out from there. I think that, you know, a lot of people will come up to us and say, so you guys get to play the course, don't you, before the players show up? You know, that's certainly not the case. It's. It's. It's a very physical job. It can certainly take its toll on you. Over the years, I mean, I've had two knee replacements, and I'VE got a bad back now, and, you know, that bag, you know, certainly you get a lot of adrenaline, as the players do in terms of being out there, but it adds up in terms of the physicality of the job. I think people would be surprised by that. But also, you know, when I started in 1990, I never would have guessed that you would forge as many close relationships with the players as you ultimately do. I would have thought there would have been a little bit of a divide between the players and the caddies, and there's really not. And some of my closest friends, again, are players now. And you get invited to things like, you know, their house for dinner or, you know, weddings or whatever the case may be. And, you know, Phil was very. You know, I've been on golf trips with Phil to Ireland and Scotland and places like that. You know, you know, a lot of these guys are very, very inclusive. So it was always very rewarding. When I live in Phoenix right now and. And have for years, and we would have a Phoenix Open dinner every year, and you invite 40 people, and 20 of them would come over and, you know, 20 players, 20 caddies, and you just have an absolute ball. So I've always been very impressed by how. By how welcoming and friendly the players are to the caddies and how inclusive they are in terms of what goes on.

I think it's fascinating, the idea, again, of the no home games and being on the road for that long with each other. So to hear you say that, it's cool. I think it's one of the things that. So unique about golf, right? Like, we all, the rest of us, you know, half the year, we're at home and in our own bed, and it's just different. And you guys are obviously on the road and on this journey and adventure together. So it's cool to think about. I want to flip, like, to the team events, because, you listen, the Masters is amazing, but there's a special place for the Ryder cup and President's cup and the team events in golf. And you've been. I mean, like. But at some point, would you do, like, 22 straight? I think maybe even more.

Yeah, I think I did. I ended up doing 24, but 22 straight at one point. I'm spoiled rotten because, you know, I'm with you. Go ahead, Alex. But I think the team events are. Are amazing.

Yeah, they're magical. And you've been a part of, like, these ones that, like, will live on forever. Like Brookline. Right. The Miracle Medina, like, you know, Hazeltine. I Mean, I still think about the Sergio and Phil battle, you know, on that back nine was just like birdie for birdie. These are so intense, right? And these are guys that have never played a team sport. They're finally teammates. You guys have to, like, rally together. It is us versus them, right? There's a small group that get included in this. Only the best of the best of the best. I would love to know the most intense moment for you.

Certainly that. That battle with Sergio at Hazeltine, you. That you mentioned comes to mind where I think they both ended up shooting 10 under that day and having the match. And I just rem. Remember, Phil, I think, made 11 birdies and one bogey that day. And you're walking up the 18th going, holy cow, we're about to break the course record and lose this match, or something along those lines. But they're beyond intense. You know, I've seen a player get a nosebleed at the Ryder cup just sitting there eating breakfast, you know, about to tee off on a Friday. It's, it's, it's, it's insane. And I always used to say that I think it's just so much about golf that these guys would get together. You know, they literally, you know, spend. You know, you get, you'll, you'll have guys this year get what I call Ryder cup fever. I mean, the Ryder cup is going to be played this fall in the United States on Long island at Bethpage. It's going to be an iconic, must win Ryder cup for the U.S. and certainly, you know, Rory and company are going to show up dead set on making sure that doesn't happen. But it's going to be huge. And you'll see guys change their schedules this year to make those teams, you know, at events. You know, if they make the team, they're going to spend, you know, an unbelievable amount of money, bring in their friends and family to watch. And I love the fact for years there's absolutely no compensation for these guys. They're doing it because they're representing their tour, they're representing their families, they're representing their countries. They want to wear that American flag on their chest. And just to see it over time, I just think it's the most incredible, incredible event. And again, I mean, I was there when Justin Leonard made the putt in 1999 to win at Brookline that you, that you referenced. And I've seen it the other way, too, you know. You know, we lost in 1995 at Oak Hill in Rochester, New York, and the European team did unbelievable things down the stretch to pull out a win at that particular time. But it's, it's. There's something special about the Ryder Cup. I, you know, these guys are absolutely obsessed with it. You know, Rory, you know, sat down in a press conference here recently and gave his three goals for the remainder of his career, and one of them was to win one more away Ryder cup in the United States. It means that much.

That's crazy. Yeah.

He's also said he. He could have a year. There's no such thing as having a successful year to him in a year where they lose the Ryder Cup. So that I honestly think the guy, you know could win the Masters this week. If he loses the Ryder cup this September, you know, he's not going to be nearly as happy at Christmas as he otherwise would be, given the fact they didn't quite get it done at Bethpage. But it means so, so much to these players. It drives me crazy when people suggest that it doesn't mean as much to the Americans. Maybe that's why we haven't performed as well as we should. I shouldn't say we as they should over the, over the years, but if anything, I think it's because the Americans have put so much pressure. Pressure on themselves, you know, to write the ship and to make up for the fact that there haven't been as many wins or no away wins for the US since 1993. Again, I'm rambling on, but it means so much to these guys. And if you ever, if you've never been to one and you get a chance to go, I highly recommend it because it's. It's not like any other golf tournament you've ever been to.

Bones, Bones, Bones as a glue guy guest. We're expecting you to, you know, bring us out one year. I mean, I feel like that that is just part of the deal, you.

Know, hey, I'm going to be out there holding a microphone this September doing it, so if you guys want to come hang out, I'd love to have you.

Don't ask us twice. One of my favorite things about the Ryder cup is that it's such an amazing event that MJ feels the need to go right like that. He's just, he's like, yeah, I got to be here. This is, this is peak competition, right? And it's one of the things that just, like, elevates to me that the event just having the camera following him around in his cart as he goes around, it's just so cool, you know? This has got MJ as a consistent spectator.

Well, we were talking before you got on Robbie, just about. This is such a rare situation for these guys. I mean, they've grown up in a world where it's. It's them and their parents as juniors, them and them and their caddy as a professional. And so, like, for a week, you know, for longer than that, they get to be like everybody else.

Yeah.

Part. Part of the team. And it's awesome. And you can, you can feel how badly they want. They want to win it. And that, that, that certainly has been an issue, especially when we go to Europe. The, the crowds in America are going to be. It's gonna be bonkers. It's going to be absolutely bonkers. I cannot wait to. To see it. And I play with Keegan, captain Keegan, a few weeks ago, and, like, he wants to win so badly and just represent the country and put together a team that is worth rooting for, for this country. So I don't want anyone to ever think that these players won't care about Ryder cup, and they care about it more than we'll ever know. And that's why this event is the best.

Amen to that.

Bones. Is it? Because that week, and even leading up to it, like, I absolutely love Roy McElroy. Like, I love Rory.

Yeah.

However, that week that I do not, like, I thought it is real. Like, I don't like those guys that week. Right. Like, I, I love the us versus them mentality. Now. We just spent how long talking about how close you guys are because you're on the road and spent so much time together, and it is very intimate. But, like, is it similar for the players and caddies?

Yeah.

La Cava had that in that incident, you know, like, and I kind of loved it. And so, yeah, I'm curious, like, what is it like, Bones, for the caddies in that situation?

It's intense. I'm not going to lie. There's certainly been instances of Ryder Cups, of caddies chirping at caddies and players chirping players. And if you're going to chirp, you're going to chirp at the Ryder cup. And this is going to be the biggest chirp Ryder cup of all time this fall. I'm sure of it. It's just, you take it so personally and, yeah, it's tough. These guys are your friends. And there's no question that everybody gets together typically on Sunday night and blows it out. There's a big party in one of the team's rooms and Everybody gets there, gets together, but, you know, it's. It's. It's a win or nothing week. You feel so, so bad for so, so long when you don't ultimately win at those tournaments in the fall of the. Of the. Of the odd years now. But it's. It's. It's absolutely huge. And it's, you know, we'll see it here in a couple of months. You know, we'll be at the PGA Championship and, And the Open Championship, and guys are going to, you know, somebody's going to come out of nowhere to make that team, and someone's going to get knocked out. It's going to be absolute bedlam, you know, just before we even get there to play again, because these guys want it so, so badly to be a part of it and, and, you know, to play for Captain Keegan quickly, because.

We'Ve joked about this at our Commissioners cup, like, alternate shot is its own animal, right? Like, again, the pressure to, like, hold up your end can really, like, it could be a mind. Like, honestly, it breaks the best of the best, and we see it happen to them, too, right? Like, and who you get paired with and the dynamic.

Right.

Like, as a caddy does it. Does it. I mean, there's an art to it, right? Like, to find the right psychology. Psychology. Some of these guys famously, like, no apologies, right? Don't ever say I'm sorry on the course. How do you guys go about that? Like, trying to find the best, you know, like, the puzzle pieces that fit together.

You know, it's.

It's.

It's fascinating because so much goes into it, and, and, you know, the golf ball part of it is so important, you know. You know, when. When Phil and Tiger famously played together in 04, and because Tiger was, you know, by far the best player in the world, you're gonna. You're gonna tip your hat to him and say, okay, we'll play your golf ball. And Phil, you know, found out very, very quickly his golf ball and Tiger's golf ball were radically different.

Oh, interesting.

So, you know, you know what you're expecting out of your six iron or your wedges around the green or you're, you know, hitting something off the tee. It's so much goes into it, and it goes so far beyond personalities and whether or not guys are aggressive or typically more conservative. But you better get guys on board in terms of the equipment, because that can. That can show up in a hurry in terms of deciding who wins and loses.

There's an amazing story about the gamesmanship that goes on in the Ryder Cup. And the Europeans are really, really good at gamesmanship. They're really good. And one of the stories I heard was in the team room, you know, obviously the players are gathering there before the. Before the big match. They're trying to get focus. And in the hotel of the Americans, the. The TV was stuck on Sky Sports. Well, Sky Sports, for those who don't know, is European based. So all they talked about was pro Europe golf. Pro Europe Golf. And so, like, what, you know, gamesmanship to break the tv so you can't change the channel, you can't turn it off. And you're listening these guys gush on about Shane Lowry and Rory. And like, that's what we need to do. We need to bring that the Europeans in New York this year.

I'm with you. I know you've got Keegan's number. I think you should. You could be a heck of an advisor in situations like this. Shane, let's do it.

I think Mental Warfare, the. The chair of Mental Warfare. Shane, that would be a good title for you for the Ryder cup team. I think you would excel at that.

I have ideas.

You've been a part of some fire alarms, right? Or been a victim of some fire alarms going up.

I know all those tricks.

We would famously. This is. I don't know if I've told this story, but when every time we'd play New England, right, Like, Belichick was like the most feared, like, mental gamesmanship person out there, right? Like, of all the things we've ever heard, right? So there were all these, like, myths about the things he would do. And one of the big ones that, like, when you stayed out in Boston or. Or Providence typically, is where we stayed, that the whole hotel staff was on, like, literally on. On the payroll, right? And so when we went out with Harbaugh, we left, like, fake first 15s and game plans all over the place. And every player was, like, instructed, like in our hotel rooms, they were all different. Like, we left so much everywhere on purpose just to try and, like, mess with him, that if any of this got back to him, you know, like, you know, just. That's awesome, by the way. I've never stayed there. And the fire alarm didn't go off. Those fans are intense.

Hey, Robbie, I've got a chirp for you. You ready?

I can't wait. Yeah.

Back. This is probably around 2000. It was before they banned square grooves. So now, of course, you have to have, you know, V grooves now. But for years and years, Square grooves were legal. They could go, you know, you could go a certain amount in terms of how sharp they were that the Tour would monitor. But, you know, you could only get, you know, square grooves. This is at a time where you could just generate a ton of spin. So Phil's playing at a British Open, and. And he's got a shot in on into a par four. It's a 10th hole, I can't remember what golf course. And he's chipping into about a 30 mile an hour wind from about 30 or 40 yards. So he's hitting on that tight turf that you tend to get over there overseas. And he hits a shot, and he just, you know, just clips it perfectly. It goes into the wind, which increases the spin. This ball lands on the green and spins back 25ft. If you see a shot spin back 25ft from 100 yards, that's not a big deal. But from 30, 40 yards, that's just something you never, ever see. So there was a player on the PGA Tour who's sitting at home watching this on television, and he sees this, and he's thinking to himself, there's no way. No one can generate that kind of spin, hit that kind of shot. You know that those grooves have to be illegal. So we find ourselves in Hartford, Connecticut, the next week. Phil's playing in the tournament, as is this player that's had an issue with Phil, the shot that Phil hit on tv. So this player goes to the rules official and said, there's no question that Mickelson is playing with a knee illegal wedge. I want you to go find him out here playing in the Pro am today, and I want you to test it. So Phil and I, we know none of this. So we're out there on the golf course, we're playing the Pro Am, and a rules official shows up in his cart and says, we've had a complaint about your wedge fill. We're going to have to. We're going to have to take it in and test it. So Phil's like, you got to be kidding me. Bones, go with him. Make sure I get my club back. Look after our club. I leave Phil alone. Some kid comes out of the crowd and carries the bag, and off I go with this rules official to test this club. So we go to this little testing room that the officials have on site, and he's testing the grooves, and it turns out they're perfectly legal. They're right on the edge, but they're perfectly legal. No problem whatsoever. And I somehow, in the 20 or 30 minutes, you know that we're in there, get this player's name as to who's complained about to them about who this is, and he's not a renowned player, and he's struggling to keep his card. So I go back, you know, and I take the wedge back, and I get with Phil, and here's your wedge back of this. Totally fine, Phil. No worries. Phil goes into the locker room later that day and gets a piece of paper and writes a note to this guy and puts it on his locker. And he says, hey, thank you for your concern. Good luck at tour school. He basically tells this guy, thanks to this, by the way, you're going to lose your card this year, and I'm never going to see you again. And signs it Phil. So that was one of the more vicious chirps. That is a vicious chirp.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, Bones, you're a Hall of Fame caddy, all right? You inducted into the Caddie hall of Fame. You helped shape Club up, which is an awesome technology, helping caddie programs around the country. You've been an amazing mentor to the next generation of young guys on tour. What do you want your legacy to be?

I would like to think that people thought I was good at what I did. That would mean a lot to me. If people think I was a good caddy or one of the better caddies, that means a lot to me because I took the job really seriously. I cared a lot about what went on out there. And, you know, you put your heart and soul into something, and, you know, you certainly want people to say nice things about what you did out there. You know, I would also like, you know, people to think that when it came down to the nitty gritty on Sunday, and you're making those decisions that are so important in terms of, you know, how the Masters is going to work out or the Open Championship or even the tournaments that don't. Don't work out for you, that. That you did a good job under pressure, because it's. It's the easiest thing to caddy out there when you're in 40th place in Palm Springs and you've got a gallery of six people. But it's a little. It'll. It'll be a little different for the caddies this week that are out there on that 15th fairway at Augusta national trying to pull a club and get the ball over the water on the grade and get a putt for eagle, and ultimately, someone's going to win. And, you know, in terms of your little small caddy life and your what you can kind of get it, be involved with out there, that you did your little caddy thing right, and you contributed in a small way to someone's victory. I would like to think, you know, that the people thought I did a good job at that and, you know, and that I treated people nicely and fairly and that, you know, hopefully people enjoyed my company.

That's awesome. One, one thing, Bones, as you were talking that's so interesting is like, we sometimes talk about craft on our podcast, and just like the lost art of craft and like, caddies are true.

They. They.

People, they're people that respect the craft, you know, like, of what they're doing. You just think about the level of detail you have to know in order to properly advise somebody and help them and be a great teammate. And when talking to you, I just, I was thinking about your saying, like, I just want people to think I was good at it because I put my heart and soul into it. You only put your heart and soul into something that you respect as a craft. It's really cool.

Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I, I do. I. I love golf. I love what it represents. I love. It's the game where, you know, I don't expect someone to travel in a basketball game and call it on themselves. I mean, that's not how it works. And I get it, you know, and. And guys steal signs in baseball games. But, but, but, you know, golf is golf, and I do like the fact that guys call penalties on themselves and, you know, people do the right thing and we're all trying to just be gentlemen out there and conduct ourselves in the right way. But, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is golf means the world to me. It's been my entire life, whether I've been caddying, playing as a kid, or now working for NBC as an on course reporter. It's just, it's been a real honor for me to be out there, and if I can give back in some small way, I'm absolutely going to do it.

Bones, one thing we ask all our guests, you know the shows pods called Glue Guys, right? The people that make teams work right and together and make them go. And obviously, I think we all are in agreement. We think of you as the ultimate glue guy. But who's a glue guy or glue people in your life that have meant the most to you?

Yeah, definitely my wife, Jennifer. She keeps me on the straight and narrow. She's here in Augusta with me this week. She Helps me out with the stuff I have to do. And if I step out of line, I get back in line really quickly if she's around. And she's just been amazing. And we've got two wonderful children that we obviously love dearly, like, everybody loves their kids. And I'm really just grateful for the family unit we have and the things that we've gotten to do together, and we have a lot of fun together. But none of this, for me happens if I don't meet my wife in on the eighth hole of the Tucson Open in 1996. And it worked out nicely for me, and I'm just incredibly grateful for her.

Hey, Bones, how did you meet your. We're going to let you go in a second, but how did you meet your wife on the eighth hole of the Tucson?

Is there a story there?

Yeah. How'd that happen?

Well, you've got to respect her name right now. Yeah. No, thank you. You know, she's an exceptionally beautiful brunette, and, you know, I. You know, I couldn't help but notice what was going on over there. It turns out we had a mutual friend. So I weaseled my way into a dinner that night that was going on in town that she was attending, and it ended up taking several years, several years for me to kind of, you know, reel her in, so to speak, and put a ring on it. But it worked out for the best, and I'm incredibly grateful for it. Sam.