Locker Rooms and Living Rooms - [Glue Guys, EP.2]

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Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your hosts, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

Let's talk about teammates.

If this goes far enough, you think we can get Udonis on? I'm kind of fascinated by him. I've heard all these stories. I've heard, like, behind the scenes in that locker room that he's this amazing locker room guy, that he kind of kept guys in check.

Yeah, he'd be a fascinating study.

Right. I heard he was kind of like a dog in the block room. Like, he kind of checked a lot of the guys, even though even at the end of his career when he was older, that he kind of put guys in their place and, like, this is the way we're doing it.

No, he did. He did. No, he's pretty universally respected by every guy who played with him, which is rare. I don't know anybody who had anything bad to say about ud.

You know, one thing I was thinking about, if we do end up talking to him, I think that one of the topics for me is like, going to be the value of the respect of your peers, which is just sort of like when you go through anything professional. I think people have like the wrong goals because I think the thing that you want at the end is just like the respect of your peers no matter what. Like that to me is like the thing that actually like it's the most valuable external piece of feedback. You know, I think he has that people respect him, I think.

Yeah.

What point do you sort of figure that out? Right? Because when you, when you're start when you're climbing the mountain in the beginning, you're just like, man, I just, I want to make it, I just want to spawn the team. Right. And so like when is that? It'd be interesting. Ask everybody.

When they kept him on the roster until he was 40 and he wasn't playing for like the last five years. I think that's probably when he figured it out. You know, I swear he was on that roster for like four years and never stepped on the court.

Have you ever heard there's this study that was done where they, they asked people who are doing group projects to add to estimate the percentage of the credit that they deserved for the outcome of the group project. Okay, four people on average in the group, what do you think the average sum of like percentage credit was that the four people on average would add up to?

I would say 200%, I think.

Right on the fucking nose. 200, 200%. And it just tells you like, I mean the on average, you know, four person team, on average people think they're twice as valuable as they are like on average. Right. And it's consistent across the board, you know, 200%. 200%. And so can you imagine on a 12 person team, on a 53 person team, you know, what does the number add up to? But you know, it's not, I bet you it's not quite linear, but I don't know what the shape of that curve would be. But if you take it on, I mean a 12 person, 53 person team, anything, I mean it's going to be crazy numbers. Which means why people, so many people are so unhappy.

I think age is a huge variable there because when you're a young guy and you're on the team, Shane, you could say it's like you're just happy to be there. You don't even care what they're paying you. Like you're, you're making money to play a sport. So you're just like, sure, I'm here and you don't even feel like you're contributing that much when you're old, like, you know, you'd honest at the end and you know your value, right? Like, that's when you're like, I'm underpaid. You need to pay me more. You. You know, like that. That only happens at the end of your career site, like arc, you know, like, at the front end, you're not. You're just like, pay me whatever. I'm happy to be here.

You know, you understand. You.

You understand group economics better by the end, too, right? We're making how much and I'm getting how much?

As a pro athlete, I think your pay and, like, your popularity have an inverse relation, right? Like, when I signed huge contracts, like, everybody, you better ball out. And when you don't.

Yeah.

Like, there's a lot of people that are like, we're paying this guy, how much for this? You know, and inversely, I've taken deals where I took, like, low, bottom of the market. And everybody loves you. You know, it's like Brock Purdy. Yeah, like Brock Purdy.

Oh, yeah.

This guy's. This guy's making a few hundred grand and playing like this. Like, it's amazing. And it will flip when he signs his contract for, like, $60 million a year. Like, everything changes. Everything.

Yeah. That is kind of crazy, right? Because, you know, you guys definitely have a weird thing of, like, the whole world knows what you get paid, right? Like, that's a weird dynamic, you know? Like, I don't know what that's like. I remember one guy had, like, the people that had access to the cap table at Instacart, knew what, you know, I had, and it was like, relationship affecting.

Ravi. Did you negotiate your own equity package like, you yourself?

Yeah, I did. You know what's crazy about that? So one, when I was leaving, like, kkr, you don't negotiate anything. You just, like, get it. Right. Same thing in Sequoia. You just, like, get it. But when you go to a company, like, you know, you get an offer, you negotiate it. So I got my offer from Instacart, and I was like, I gotta negotiate this. And my dad, I was talking to my dad about it, and he was like, well, what do you want? And I told him what I wanted, and he's like, well, how are you going to try and get it? And I'm like, well, I'm going to be like, there's so much risk in this company, and I got to get, you know, compensated for that risk. Here's what I'm leaving on the table. And my dad was like, hey, listen, like, let's say Nyan, Trey, and Savin were applying for, like, a school, you know, and someone was like, I don't know if I want to take them, because, like, you know, here are all their negatives. He's like, what would you think? I'd be like, fuck you guys. You know, like, those are my kids. Like, stop talking about them. And he's like, that's the way the founder feels about his company. So, like, if you go and tell him, like, here's all the risk, you know, you're not gonna. You're gonna piss them off. You're not gonna get anything. So if you want to try and get more, tell him, like, look, like, I think this is gonna work, but I want to, like, participate. I want to be part of it. I want to be in. I want to feel it the way, you know, you feel it, right? And so I believe in this, and I really want it to work, and I want to get. Participate in that. And it was just like a way better, you know, conversation. And I. I did that instead. And then I tried to get more a year later. But how did.

How did you determine what your market was? I mean, do you. Just talking to your buddies and reading the. Reading the journal? I mean, yeah, private companies, there's, you know, you just don't know.

It's more art than science. You don't really know. And you have no idea what these companies are going to be worth, right? So, like, it's weird. Like, you know, this, like, money is. There's an absolute dollar amount that you care about. Then there's also, like, a fairness thing. There's a stat that median CEO pay keeps on going up because no CEO wants to believe they're at the media because they've always been high performers. So they keep on saying, well, I want to be in the 80th percentile, whatever. So I tried to get some stats on, like, percentages of companies that CFOs got, right? And I wanted to have a good number within that. And then I wanted to have a good number within the company, you know, for what I had. So I tried to get some data like that. And then, Shane, what happened, funny enough, was like, I worked there for a year. I'd done a good job, and some guy who is a CEO here in the Valley, who I'd gotten to know, he came and talked to me and was asking me what I was doing at Instacart. And I told him, and he said, if you don't have Between X and Y of this company. You're a fucking idiot. And I definitely had much lower than X and a lot lower than Y. And I was like, wait, really? And I asked him, I said, how confident are you in that? He's like, I am extremely confident in what I just said. And so literally, dude, next day I went and I was like, I got to talk to you about my comp. And I asked for why, you know, and I got like 80% of Y. And so I obviously had the wrong data points beforehand. But I also, you know, the time to negotiate in my world is like, remember we don't have guaranteed contracts, right? We're fully at will, all this stuff. So the time I had just contributed a lot and that was the time to go and ask. So I always tell people when you're trying to negotiate, it's like, go, go. You get to decide when you have the conversation. And so anytime you've gone and performed, that's when you want to have it. People want to have it at dumb times. So I kind of hit once and I hit it well and ended up working out. But we don't have agents and stuff, right? I mean, but this guy served as my agent. So when we went public, I went and bought this guy the most expensive bottle of wine that I could find just to be like, hey, thanks, I really appreciate it.

Well, if I could do it over again, I don't know about you, about Alex, I would not have had an agent. I don't think I got the value for what the services were. Now, in fairness, I only signed two contracts. All right? When you're a rookie, you're slotted. So I was a 6 pick and I got X for, you know, for basically for five years. When I was a restricted free agent. First time, my agent actually did provide some value, which is a great story with Jerry West. But I signed a six year extension. I was the last person to ever sign a six year deal in the NBA. They don't have them anymore. They're extinct. And then the last time I went to the Miami Heat and that's when I could only sign for the mid level, the mini mid level exception, right? It was, it was, they were capped out. And so I'm like, all right, I gotta, I was slotted. And so when I think about the value that I gave up, I had some, some marketing deals, but I go gone back. I tell every athlete, go out and hire the most expensive negotiator, pay him, pay him or her 500 bucks an hour, and Save yourself a couple hundred grand.

This is the Grant Hill thing, right? Like, he did this his whole career. And I. And I totally agree with you. Like, listen, I had a great agent my entire career. Tom Condon. He's awesome. I only have good things to say about him. But totally, in hindsight, I look back and I'm like, it's not that complicated, right? You take your comps. What are they making? Like, especially the most recent ones that hit the market. It's not that much different when you're, like, selling your house and, hey, they're making X, and this is what you go ask for, right? Like, and I like to see, you know, Lamar Jackson kind of took some of this flack lately because he did his. And it's like, it's not these agents that make 3%. I mean, you negotiate a $200 million contract.

Wait, the agents take 3%? Yes.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's a couple days work. Like, those are negotiated in a couple of days. And again, you walk in with your list of comps. This is what we want. You, you know, obviously, you settle on some of the negotiation. Like, there's obviously these things, these poker chips they play with.

That's nuts. Because if you think about it, I. That I didn't realize that if you think about it, one, it's particularly crazy in the NBA because there's a salary cap. I don't know football as well, but, like, you know what I'm saying? There is only so much particular if you're, like, you know, getting a bigger contract. They literally can only pay you so much. So that's one thing. The other thing is because of what you said earlier, Alex, of, like, you are not as likable when you sign a big contract. Some of the value of an agent would be, like, you get to have them be not likable. You know what I'm saying? Because they're the one going and negotiating on your behalf. But the issue is you still take the pain afterwards. Paying them is a lot. It's like, when Scott Boris was out there negotiating for all these dudes, there was like, supposedly, it's like, well, it's not really him. It's. It's not really a Rod that's going and doing this. It's Scott Boris. He's the bulldog, but a Rod still got all the hate. Anyway, so, like, what are you paying for?

Well, totally. And that's why I asked you if you negotiated yourself, because when you go in, like, that's what I think would be the hard Part because I know this is how this happens. Like your agent goes in and says, hey, my guy's a stud. He deserves, you know, like you said. Why? Well, the team, even though they want you, they actually come back and they're like, well, you know, he's not so good at this and he's not so good at that and he's kind of okay at this. And so like, we think he's worth, you know, obviously significantly less. And ultimately you probably end up settling somewhere in the middle. But they, if you're negotiating yourself, like, they, they're saying that to your face potentially, you know, like you're having these conversations like, well, we don't quite think you're that good. Like, your comp is not Patrick Mahomes. You know, like, you're, you're kind of.

Here, dude, I'm, I'm telling you, it's easier in the non sports world. I literally took one piece of paper in the middle of folder. Okay. That was going to be my ask. And I, I started, I said, I don't think my compensation is in line with my contributions, nor my alternatives. Okay. That's what I said. And the founder was great. He was like, I totally agree. What have you thought about what you want? I said yes, and I gave him a piece of paper. Right. And he's like, thank you. The thing about it is, like, there is no, like, he can't be like, well, you know, I'm trying to think of like a, I don't know, like a. He's not gonna be like, well, you're not Sheryl Sandberg. Like, nobody talks like that. There's no like comping, you know, like, they just kind of are trying to figure out what they can pay you and what they can not. And, and so my point is they, they, they don't have like the hurtful conversation on the other side. It's actually more like most people just aren't that good at negotiators and they don't want to go and advocate for themselves and they don't want to have the conversation because it is awkward, you know, but like huge payoff if you can do it yourself. I mean, I didn't pay anybody 3. I should pay my dad 3% or that random CEO 3%, you know, and.

Then we're family, honestly, you know, oh, but we're family. But we're family.

Like, come on.

Exactly.

But we're family. Which is the most abused word? The F word.

And do they use that in sports when, when you're negotiating they'll say, we're family.

Yes, we're family.

It's like every other breakdown, every other team breakdown, Ravi's family, like, and it's always coming from the guy that, like, this guy definitely doesn't mean it.

That is batshit. Guys. Like, batshit. Sports is the most absurd use of the word family, in my opinion. Right? That there is. They literally will trade you. Like, you know, I, I can't get traded. I can get fired. You know what I'm saying? But, like, it is, man, that is crazy. That is like that.

That's called business. This is not family. This is business. When you get traded or you get bench, this is, you know, we love you, but this is business.

But my point is, like, then the breakdown in the should be business, you know, like, rather than family.

And look, in, in all my business dealings, anyone who brings up the word family or big family is like, ah, that's just the wrong. Just. It's the wrong word to use. Like, look, we should all support each other and we should all hope the best for our individual trajectories. And as, as a group, we're going to do whatever we can to support you and to. And to foster your dreams and ambitions and get, you know, get you there. But, like, this is not a family, you know, family. You can't trade family. Right? Our cousins, our parents are, you know, for better, for worse. And families fight and they bicker.

Of course, it's forever. So that's the whole point.

Well, I hope this is not family.

Yeah, well, dude, you know what's so fascinating about that? Like, literally, like, the, like, the seminal document in Silicon Valley for culture is the Netflix culture document. And the beginning of it is we are not a family. We are the. Our analogy is a high performing sports team. Like, we will change you out if you are not a high performer at your position, and we'll give you a generous severance package and all that stuff. But, like, it's all. It's crazy because, like, the contrast is, like, sports is so aggressively not family. In, like, the primary culture document in Silicon Valley history, it distinguishes of, like, not family. We're a sports team.

The great teams don't talk like that, though. Like, Bill Belichick's not telling those guys their family. Like, right. He's keeping it very. It's professional. This is why you're here. And it's right. You're expected to perform at a certain level, as am I. And if you're not, we're gone. Right? And then hopefully, and I Think guys actually appreciate that, right?

Shane?

I mean, like, guys don't want. They, they know, like the BS meter, especially when you get the professional level, gets pretty high and, and I think everybody, hopefully the team goals and your goals are aligned, right? Like, as they should be in any good organization, right? Like, again, like, the rising tide lifts all ships and like, so we in your working, right? You want to be part of a good environment. No winning, you know, losing sucks, especially, you know, when you're out there toeing the line every week. You know, you can't. There's no, like, hiding in sports is the other thing, right? Like, you can't go sit in a cubicle and just hide for like a year. Like, no, you're going to be. You're going to be on the court every. Every other night and like, they're writing about you in the paper and talking about you on talk radio and like, it sucks if you're. If it's. You're part of a loser thinking about family.

Alex, I disagree that, you know, the Miami Heat prided themselves on being a family and the F word was used a lot. And now the Heat are very different organization. They are. They are run like a mafia organization. No one ever leaves. No one ever. No one ever comes in. When I ran analytics for them, I was there probably eight years, nine years between my playing days and running data, and I was still considered the new guy eight years in. And there were things that say, well, you know, you just haven't been here long enough that I was told.

And.

That was an example. It was a family dynamic, but it's a model that our advice and team, I would say that's a really, really, really difficult model to try to replicate that's held together by Pat Riley and his singular greatness. And, you know, Rev and I, we often talk about, you know, the hero culture and how difficult it is to maintain it sort of just evolves a hero culture just sort of, sort of like, comes about and all of a sudden you have.

What do you mean by the hero culture?

Well, where. A singular force or. I wouldn't ever characterize the hero culture as two or three singular forces. Would you, Ravi? No, A single force is basically the. The tie that binds it all together. So. So Pat Riley, I mean, we're talking.

Unicorns, like the force in Star Wars. Is that what we're talking here?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But at least with Star wars, you had, you know, Darth Vader, you had Senator Palpatine, you had a bunch of, you know, cult of personalities. You know, that's probably a better word for it. When you have one singular cult of personality that, that holds everybody together, that holds the line. And you know, in Miami, like Pat Riley's a unicorn. There's never been an executive like him. And when, even today, when Pat speaks, everybody listens, everybody. And the amount of respect that he gets just by walking into the room, it's very, very different than any other corporate structure that, that I've been in. And there's positive aspects, things get done, but there are also a lot of negative aspects where.

It'S.

Those organizations are much more resistant to change and maybe open mindiness, which I learned. And again, this isn't an indictment on anybody, but they're very, very difficult to maintain and fragile from a standpoint. When that cult of personality figure leaves, the vacuum is so vast that no one knows what to do and how to react. And what do we do now?

Before you move off that for a second, Shane, just on like the, When Pat speaks, people listen. Can you tell, tell us that story? Remember the one you said about like after you guys lost in the finals, how he like had you guys sit against the wall and I'm talking like this Grown man fucking LeBron James like that, that, I couldn't believe that that existed.

I never thought this would happen in the NBA. Not to a team that's going to win the world championship. So the, the Dallas Mavericks beat the Miami HE11 NBA Finals. Well documented. Like they were great, but the Mavs just played great. Unbelievable series. And, and you know, LeBron and D. Wade, Chris Bosh, those guys were just sort of figuring each other out. And so the pain of that, losing that, the embarrassment of that was, was felt very, very deep. And that was. I came in the next year after and I felt that. So our first game of the year, this was after the lockout. Pat very rarely ever spoke to the team. Everyone thinks that he was like intimately involved with day to day communications. That was the opposite. He never talked to us except on this day. We're getting on the plane to go play Dallas in the opening game on Christmas day. So on Christmas Eve he says, all right, everybody on the wall. And so everybody from LeBron, Dwayne, Chris Bosh, we have to go sit against the wall like we're in fifth grade basketball camp. All right? And so Pat's the only one standing and is walking up and down the line and looking at us. And he delivers this speech. He tells us, guys, as you go to Dallas tomorrow, I don't Want you to ever forget. This is the team that came into your house and took your championship, and afterwards they went to your clubs and they drank your champagne and they pissed in your street and they probably took your girls home. They basically came, they saw, they conquered. Since you take the core tomorrow, I never want you to forget that feeling and just let it hang out there. And I'm just like, oh, man, this is intense. It was unbelievable. And I'm sitting there like, does anyone else think this is. This is hilarious.

And.

But, like, it was all business. It was. And so that next day, like, we go to Dallas and, like, it was ring night for the Mavs, obviously, and. And, you know, we didn't want to see them get their rings. So we're back in the tunnel while they're getting their rings. And, like, I tell people, like, you could just feel like the edge of this team. You talk about a collective edge. I mean. I mean, everyone was just like, almost like foaming at the mouth. Like, man, we want to destroy this team and we just want to. Let's embarrass. Like, they took. They took what's ours, and we go out and we just put it on them. At one point, we're up 30 points. The final score, we're up one by like 12 or 13 or whatever, but it was never a game. And as I walked off the court that day, I'm like, oh, man, we are winning this. We're winning this just because the edge that was. And like, I had never been around a coach, maybe Coach K in a different way, but just created this edge with, like, a singular speech. And that was the only speech he gave us the entire year. The entire year. And something I'll never forget.

Shane going to go back to the family thing, do you think? And I think this is what, at least from an outsider's perspective, makes the Heat so unique even to this day, is they have a little bit of a us versus the world kind of mentality that. Right? And the people they draft and the free agents they sign, it's like you're one of us, right? Like you. And then when you get in there again, it's like that. It's like us, we. We do it differently. We're different. Us versus the world. So I think. And. And obviously, basketball locker rooms are. Are much smaller, you know, more tight knit, less guys, obviously, than. Than a football.

It's a badge and honor for the Miami Heat to say, this is not for everybody, which is like, so weird in sports and in business. Do you ever you know, how many teams say, you know, we're a little bit different. This might not be for you. You know, you're like, okay, tell me more. Tell me more, you know, and they tell it to everybody walks through the door. This ain't for everybody. Not everyone. Not everyone here makes it. But if you're a competitor, right, and you accept that challenge, the rewards are going to be greater than any other place. And the mentality of, like, we're here for one reason and one reason only, you know, to be world champions. A lot of people say that, all right? But not everyone. Not everyone acts that way.

It reminds me so much. Urban Meyer, like, at his core, was like a psychologist more than a football coach, right? Like, he could get guys together and that exact same thing. Like, it's. This isn't going to be easy. But, like, he.

He.

That edge you talk about, like, creating that as a leader, like, he created that edge, right, that you played the entire group again, that was the force, right? To go back to that, that's what. Like, it embodied everybody. And, you know, I. Bro, you talked about the confrontation thing. Like, this guy loved confrontation, right? Like. Like, it was a. It was at the heartbeat of the culture, right? Like that. That confrontation, like, and it was everything you did. I don't care if you were right. Like, you competed at everything, like, and it was at the. Like, I don't care if it was at the lunch line, right? Like, you were. You were. You know, it was a part of everything you did every single day. And again, us versus the world, right? Like, nobody believes in you. And he constantly, like, made you feel like the underdog every time you talk to the team. Nobody believes in us, right? Like, they think we're crap. Like, it constantly. And it's so funny because you think that would beat you down, but it actually did the opposite, right? Like, it, like, just, you know, you play. You were, like, playing with house money when you played for him, which actually made you freer, right? As opposed to the psychology, like, when you are the favorite, right? And, like, all these expectations are on you. And for me, like, you'd step out on the field, and then it was like, oh, shit, don't screw up. You know? And those are very different mindsets to take the field on, right? Like when you, like, the opening whistle, like, when you're like, no one's giving you a chance, he would tell you, like, right? For no one thinks we can do this. Like, everything's. You guys are crap. Like, you aren't a part of the Big schools, like, yada, yada, yada. And then you, like, the opening whistle would come or a kickoff, and it's like, dude, you were chomping at the bit. Like, let's freaking go, man.

Do you think that you can maintain the approach that Urban took after having success? Like, because you. I only know him from, like, watching documentaries and all this stuff, right? But, like, the. The Utah Urban or the Bowling Green Urban versus, like, Florida Urban post championship. Can you still be the same guy with that even after having success?

Yes.

Okay.

Absolutely. I think it just constantly changes, right? Like, the words you're saying are differently, but, like, the tone of it is still the same. And he. I always heard this famously. He, you know, he coached for Lou Holtz at Notre Dame for a long time. And, like, Lou Holtz was notorious for this. Like, he would just scare the crap out of his players, right?

Like.

Like, Notre Dame could be playing, like, army, right? Like, who they were supposed to obliterate. And, like, he would be, like, he would still talk to the team, like, how good army was and that they're going to kick the crap out of you guys. Like, you know, like, he was just this master, like, psychologist. Like, he could just do that. And. And Urban's the same way. Like, it just constantly. He's always going to make you have that chip on your shoulder, right? Like, as a team, and that's kind of how he lives and embodies it. Right. And I do think there's a healthy. There is something healthy about that. Again, like, an approach to that, to competition that way. Right. I would much rather play as the underdog than the favorite, without a doubt.

But you need competitors, though, right?

I mean, they can't be scared of it. They got to want it, right? Like, no doubt. At your core, you got to be confident.

I'm sure you had a high attrition rate, you know, because it wasn't for everybody, right?

Huge.

You weeded out, like, the first thing you did. Like, I hated being in the room with him the first six months he was at Utah. I hated it, like, if he walked into a room, I tried to leave it. I. Like, I couldn't stand it.

So you.

So you loved it on the field, but you didn't like it at first when you were with him? Tell us more about that.

Well, it's just like, Shane's talking about, like, he was. This was a test. He was testing the entire team, and he wanted to weed out a lot of guys. It was very intentional, right? A little bit. Like, how Dion was telling those guys to pack their bags. But this was different. There was no transfer portal. So he was just going to make life miserable. And the ones that quit, like, obviously weren't meant to be here and, and weren't made for it. You know, like there was that, literally that kind of language that he used. And so for six months he didn't know, he didn't know what I was about or any of us were about. So like he was going to find out. And again, like, whether it was on the field in the meeting room. I mean, you'd walk in the meeting room, he's like, alex, get on the board. Right? And he would just like drop this and I started drawing. And he'd be like, look at that. Look at those X's nodes. That looks like shit. He's like, fix that. Where's your hashes? What yard line are we on? Right? Like, he would just like, to the point where like my, I like still, like when I, I, when I draw plays, like, it's still ingrained in me when I watch other people drax his O's and X's and O's on a, on a whiteboard. And it sucks. Like, I still am taking back to when I'm 18 years old and getting just crushed by Urban in the, in the meeting room.

That's amazing.

Sucked. He constantly like tested you be in the weight room. And I was like 180 pound kid. I mean, he wanted Tim Tebow like in Cam Newton. Like, that's what he wants as a quarterback. And like, I still don't look like that, let alone as an 18 year old. And so I, I mean, I couldn't, I could barely bench. I couldn't bench 225. And you'd come in and he would put 225 on the thing. He'd like get down on the belt, the bench and he'd be like spotting over you. And like I couldn't lift it off my chest, right, like, and he's just like not helping. He's just like watching me struggle, right? Come on, lift it. You're. This is ridiculous. Like, you're, you know, this is division one football. You can't lift this. And he would just, I mean, it was, it was brutal. I hate it. We did these mad drills. We would do these mat drills where you wrestled, you wrestled each other at 6am he had trash cans lined up everywhere because guys are puking. It was just this like terrible experience. And he would put the quarterbacks because we don't have like a Like, naturally, he'd put, like, receivers and DBs together, right? Like, they have a natural counterpart, right? Like offensive lineman, defensive lineman. Like, there's not. You know what I'm saying? For a quarterback, there's no natural, like, counterpart. Well, he would put us with the line. He'd put us with the linebackers because he thought it was funny. And, like, then you're at Utah and, like, some of these guys are returned missionaries, so they're like 24 years old. I'm 18. Like, they were like, senior. I was in sixth grade when they were seniors in high school.

Jesus Christ.

You would just. You would just get the crap kicked out of you. Bloody noses. You'd be stuffing bandages up your nose. You had, like, turf burn all over you because you had these, like, you would do these exercises where it'd be like, get down on your. One guy would get down on hands and knees, and then they would blow a whistle. And then the guy, like the linebacker, I would have to try and crawl on my hands and knees 10 yards, and he would have to try and stop me. And there's no rules. No rules. That's it. Like, you get. You either get to the end of the line or he stops you. There's a winner and a loser, and that's it. No rules. And, like, no holds bar. And. And then the best was like, you're in these groups and you're doing this. You have all these stations, you know, so you're. Everybody's moving around, and you're kind of only in your little pocket, right? And then at the end, you call everybody up to this, like, exact station. And if there was a guy like, you know, had attitude or thought he was, like, kind mighty, like he. Like a prima donna, he would call him out. And so the whole group now is watching you guys. Like, you got 100 guys around watching, right? And he would call up, like, the prima donna receiver, right? Like, hey, you're up. And then he would call out, like, the walk on safety who happened to be an allstate wrestler that, like, he knew. And he would just, like, the Allstate wrestler would just kick this guy's ass in front of everybody. In front of everybody. And Urban just, like, did this on purpose, you know, like, it was this. It was a lot of psychology. And again, it's like, I couldn't stand it for, like, six months. I hate it now. Flat flash forward. Like, once the season started and we were playing and, like, obviously the stuff started to pay off and, like, guys were on board and committed and you won games. Like, once you were in for Urban, you were in for life. And again to go to like the family thing. Like to this day, like, if you were. And it didn't matter if you were a scholarship guy or if you are a walk on that ran down on kickoff. Like, if you were in, you're in forever with Urban, right? Like, they're like you're in his circle and he'll do anything for you for the rest of his life. So, like, it was very. It was like a tale of two worlds for me.

Yeah, it's like earning your way into the family. Like, you're not family mafia. Yeah, like there is something like that. You know what's crazy related to this? I just thinking about this. There was an article in the New Yorker of last week or a couple of weeks ago about Jack McCloskey. You remember him? Shane?

Yeah.

The Pistons GM.

Yep.

So it's written by his daughter. Okay, so his actual family, his daughter. And she was effectively. The point of the article is like, my dad was not a good dad. Like, he was not around. He left. You know, they like didn't talk for 20 years, whatever. But he was a fucking unbelievable GM of this Pistons team. And the whole thing was that, that was like family. Like, we're the underdogs, whatever. And there's all these people like that, that like, go and talk about him as like, he was there for me. He went to me with. Went with me to rehab.

He.

He. He would go with me to all these like AA meetings. I mean, like real shit. And then there's that very famous hug when the Pistons walked off the floor against the Bulls. Which, by the way, it was not cool as a Bulls fan. But anyway, when they walked off the floor, there's that bit. Shane, you're supportive of it.

You had to be there, Ravi. You had to understand what, that, what that moment was. Okay, we talk about that later. But that was.

Well, I mean, it's not a fair fight because I'm a fucking, you know, Bulls fan.

You're a former player.

No one feels sorry for you as a Bulls fans.

Okay, fine, fine, fine. I still think that that was not a cool move. But anyway, so Isaiah. But she talks about that, like, very famous hug that Isaiah has as he walks up the floor with McCloskey. And the hug is like. It's like a father and a son hug. It is so intense. And she's sort of like, yo, I never had that. Like, that's my dad and I never had that. And then it ends up at the end where like, you know, he feels like he could have had more with her, whatever. But it is crazy because like he did treat the Pistons as a family more so than he treated his actual family. And so there is something here. Like, I don't know, like Shane, maybe we're wrong on like, I don't know, maybe there is a place where it, like in certain environments, like if you like really live it, you know, if you like do it all the way through. Because like I've generally been like, no, that doesn't work. But I don't know if it worked for Urban, if it works for the Heat and like it worked for those Pistons teams. Like, I don't know, maybe it can work.

You know, it can work. I just don't think it's sustainable.

Yeah, I don't think it's sustainable. It's like too intense.

I think it's really fragile. Yeah, I think, I think it's a really fragile environment to operate under.

I think that's.

And it can work. It could be highly effective if you have a strong enough personality. Someone who never rationalizes, right. Urban meyer, Coach K. McCloskey, Elon, you know, these two or four, you know, two or four these forces are. They never rationalize.

I think that's right.

But I think there's a couple things. Like Urban doing this with 18 and 19 year old kids and even like the returned missionaries of older, like it's different, right? Like there is a, there's a power difference there. Like when you get to a professional sport and you're talking to like you're talking to a guy that's, you know, been a pro for 14 years. He's almost your peer. He's, you know, like he's been all pro and to be honest, his contract with the team is worth more than yours. So like he may be more important if you piss him off. You know, like you may, you may be heading out if you, you view like ruin that relationship. So the dynamics are different at professional level. I also think there's a size element to this, right? Like Google and Apple aren't like talking like they're a family at this point. I mean it's like how many thousands and thousands of employees, however they may have started like that, right? Like that. May.

Yeah, there's definitely a size where they are.

And again, basketball obviously lends itself. These are, it's tight knit. You're playing 80, 80 games a season. You're on the road like football. We spent a lot of time together, but Again, it's a huge, it's 80 guys like you just, you do grow close, but it's, you have your pockets and the group, you spend more time with your positional groups, things like that that you become more intimate with.

You know, I think the only, the only like rule of leadership that I think is enduring when I really think about it is that leader, in order to be effective, have to be authentic. I actually think that everything else you can kind of like do it another way. You can try it this way. You try. The only one that I'm kind of, I would say very confident, doesn't work, is sort of like inauthentic, you know, because if you don't actually care, if you're putting on a show, it just, it just comes out. It, people can see it. You always read the article at the end when the coach gets fired of like, well, he was saying this, but doing this, you know, like, and I think that, that to me, everything else, there's probably like many paths or nirvana, but the one that you can't do is like kind of be somebody else, you know, because nobody wants to follow someone like that. And I, you know, that's the only thing that makes you a leader, is people wanting to follow you.

Thousand percent agree. I get asked all the time about leadership and I'm like, there's all kinds of different leaders. The only thing that matters is that you're authentic and you speak like you're honest, right? And I think, God, and I think people respect that. And I felt like I learned this hard way. I was drafted as a 20 year old kid playing quarterback. And inherently as a quarterback, like you're the, oh, you're the leader. You touch the ball every play and it's like, well, you walk into a locker room and I'm like, well there's Bryant Young over there who's like 33, multiple time all pro. Like, but I'm supposed to lead him, right? And it inherently kicked me into kind of a, a little bit like imposter syndrome kicked in. I mean it was one thing when I was in college and you're with your peers and like I, there's a little more balance. And again, probably not this like demand of a leader, but then you get to the professional level and you're again, it's a bunch of grown men, a bunch of guys older than me that are way more accomplished. But I'm supposed to break them down. I'm supposed to like before we go out there, say some meaningful words before we take the Field, right? Like that. And I felt like I had to be something more than myself. Right. Like, again, I wasn't enough. And so then you stretch and you're like, well, you know, you start doing stupid. Like, this is what I, that's what I think they want to, you know, like, this is, there's some crazy idea of a leader supposed to be, supposed to say this, you know, and then, like, and then again, everybody sees it and it's this terrible effect. And I think that's certainly at the core of leaders gone wrong. Right. And I, you know, again, I remember it clicking. Like, all of a sudden I would hear other guys when they would step in and they spoke from the heart, right? Like, and they were very, like, they didn't say some Disney version of a speech, right? Like, they just kept it real. And I was like, damn, I like that. You know, like, I needed to hear that.

Don't you think those speeches meant more and were more effective? Because what was behind those guys, you know, is how they act.

For sure, it's how they acted, but it's, they're not insecure.

Yeah.

I mean, but their, their, their actions showed their bias towards the team. And hey, we're, we're here to, to create something special, right? If that person was showing up late and not coachable, and he gets up there and says the same exact speech, you're like, man, this joker.

Yeah, yeah.

Who does he think he is?

But I think the thing that's at the core of both of those, the core of their actions and how they carry themselves the same thing that's at the core of the speech. Do you say, like, at the same time, I also didn't think, I also didn't think, like, I was good enough to put, like, I had, I was very insecure about being the number one pick and being starting quarterback for the 49ers.

Right?

So, like, I also had it on the field, and then when I stepped a lot, it was also there in the locker room. Like, you know, like, it, it was there for both those things.

Yeah. But Shane, I think to your point, I, I, I totally agree with that. Of, like, almost like, doesn't matter what the words are, as long as they're, like, real, you know, like, because you, you can feel it when, when, when somebody is telling you the truth, whatever that is, right? Like, you know, Alex, like, you're a shirt that, that just live. Like, remember that guy you were talking about, like, the, Are you going to live today? You know, like, I don't even know what that means. Right. But, like, you could feel that he felt it, you know, and it's like, yeah, I'm kind of pumped up now. Like, Shane, yours, like yours during the heat, winning streak of, like, the, you know, the touch the people speech. I. I don't know if that's your best speech of all time, but it's a pretty good one. But it's also like, they could tell you felt it, you were real about it. And I think that, like, I think that's the only thing that actually comes through. Right. There's this good quote, which is like, everyone is actually a good storyteller and a good writer. It's just a matter of if they're honest enough to tell you the truth. Right. Because, like, if you. It's not actually if you're good or not at it. It's just a matter of are you willing to get deep enough? Are you willing to say the thing that's actually happening? Because everybody, like the. I think Theo Epstein said this, but, I don't know, somebody said it. It's like everyone's life is like a Russian novel. If you're willing. If they're willing to tell you about it. If somebody tells you the real things going on in their life, everything is interesting and crazy, you know, but people just don't want to tell you.

They don't want to tell themselves.

Yeah, that's better. Yeah, that's right. You know, they don't want to tell themselves.

Yep. Some different, you know, version of themselves they're pretending and they are ignoring. I completely agree with that.

Yeah, I think that's a much better point. That they don't want to tell themselves. That's crazy.

So, Ravi, how does that translate into a corporate setting when there is so much protectionism going on? People are way less willing to stick their neck out because they might find on the chopping block here. So how can our experiences really help somebody in a corporate setting?

Yeah, well, I think there's a few things. I think if you're the leader, you know, the first thing of just sort of like, don't be a facsimile of what you think a leader is supposed to be. Like, you have to do it your own way. Like, I think that you have to kind of. You have to be authentic. I think that's a very real thing of, like, it's not about the speeches. It's not about the all hands. It's about, like, actually being clear on what you're about and why you're about it and having Your actions be consistent with that. I think that a lot of people are, you know, doing an impersonation of what they think a leader is. That's a big deal. The second thing is, I think what you guys are saying, which is cool, is sort of like even the leader. You guys were like leaders of your team some. A lot of the times you get inspired by somebody else who just like, does it every day and then tells you what they're doing and you know what I'm saying? But, like, the consistency of the action can make you a leader. I think that's a big deal in a corporate setting, which is like, you don't actually have to be the top dog in order for people to want to follow you and for people to want to come with you. And I think that that, to me, is an interesting one because people. You actually find this a lot. People will be like, oh, you know, this organization is political or this organization is this. And it's like, well, what are you doing to make it better? And then they don't answer you. And it's like, you. You can start it. You, like, you can be the one to be good and people will follow. Like, I guess my biggest takeaway I have from what you guys are saying is there's like a magnetic attraction to people that actually walk the walk, no matter the fucking level, right? Like that guy who was the all state wrestler, who was the walk on. If that guy went out and, like, just took out the prima donna receiver in that drill, I bet you people were kind of like wanting to be around that guy afterwards, even though he never plays. And I think that, to me, is the lesson for if you're at a company. And then I think the other thing is this is a big deal. You have to know what game you're playing. If you're trying at a company to just, like, make as much money as possible and work as little as possible, you can actually do that just fine. It's fine. You can hide. You can like, not do a whole lot. I think you have to realize, though, that's probably not going to make you happy. You know, the thing that's going to make you happy is you being a contributor. And the only way to can. You can't fake being a contributor because the. The rest of the people kind of. They know. They know if you're faking it or not. You're laughing. Shane, what are you. What are you thinking about?

Very few people know what game they're playing, all right? I think at the core. And they Never have a conversation with anybody to articulate that, right? How many people, you know, write in their journals every single day about what their purpose is of what you. Right? And so I think that's. It might be a fool's errand to say, hey, what game are you playing? Unless you give someone true serum, they're not going to tell you. Most people are just chasing dollars, right? Chasing prestige.

Well, I think to Alex's point, do they even know? Do they even tell themselves the truth about what game they're playing? Do they. The question, Alex, do you think they're lying or you think they don't know.

Everything you just said, like, in the search for it and like these got these people is the definition of a glue guy, right? Like, you don't have to be, you don't have to be the star to be a leader. Yeah, right. Like you just said, to be a contributor. And you can't be a contributor unless it's authentic, unless you believe it and you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself. Whatever that team is or company, you know, or group, it doesn't matter. And, and again, to be that glue, like, you're adding, like you're enthusiastic. You want to be there again. You want your actions back up any talk you give. Like, again, you mentioned it, like, I'm wearing the just lift shirt. This is from Blake Costanza. Like, I was the starting quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, right? Like this. And it had been for years and been absolutely, like just faking it, right? And I was totally insecure. Again, imposter syndrome. And this guy went to a college I couldn't even tell you at some D3 school wasn't drafted. He was like our third string linebacker. But the dude ran down on kickoff and punt and punt returned. And he, like, he brought it, right? Like, he played with an energy and an enthusiasm that was amazing. And then, and then when he walked around the locker room right before the game and was like, alex, are you going to live today? Because I'm going to live. And then at the time, in that moment, I'm like, what the hell is this guy talking about? But then again, like, the actions and the language backed each other up, right? And like that for me, he was a glue guy. Like, and we had a bunch of them on the, any good team I was on, you had a bunch of those guys. Like, like, was he a star? No, but like, we, we wouldn't have the successes that we had if it wasn't for a bunch of those Guys, right? And I think it's probably no different for, like, companies and teams and businesses, right? Like, that's, that's what you're looking for if you're. If you're hiring or, you know, like, that's. Those are the people you want around, for sure.

Shane, when you talked at Instacart, there was this woman who was there who's awesome. And she told me, like, later during, like, later in the week, someone's like, oh, you're the Shane Battier of Instacart. And she, like, she just like. And they were right. They, like, they felt it, right? They, they. They identified the right person who was like a glue person, you know? And it was just kind of like, yeah, like, she led despite or independent of her position. And she was someone that, like, if you need to get something done, you'd have her around, right? If you needed to know what the pulse of the team was, you'd have her around. If you need to go talk to somebody about something, you'd have her around, you know? And so now I hope you feel kind of bad that you don't remember this speech because it was a big impact to, you know, our company.

No, but I remember meeting that young lady, though.

Okay. Yeah, I remember, Michelle. Yeah.

It's such a. My message is, whenever I talk to companies and different groups, it is not an advanced message. Be nice to people. Be selfless. Be happy when your teammates do well. Do things that aren't asked of you. If you see a piece of trash in the ground, just pick it up. Not because anyone asks you. Just the right thing to do. Be Use humor to make fun of yourself. Right? Diffuse situations. Listen hard, ask good questions. Like, that's. This is not rocket science. There's no classes at Stanford on how to do these things. This is just like being a normal, well adjusted member of the team. And the best way that I tell people to identify this people are like, how do I find these people? How do I find glue? Guys, the easiest way to measure this in any group, all right, you just take out an Excel spreadsheet. You pull everybody, you say, hey, look, give me three people that you feel energized after talking to, right? That you feel good, that makes you feel good. That, like, oh, man, that was a positive, positive interaction. All right? Then you say, okay, give me three people that are energy vampires that you dread talking. Yeah, talk to this person. Oh, and after you have a call with them, a zoom with them, a meeting with them, a coffee with them, you're like, oh, that was so brutal. And I promise you, like, if you map that in a simple mapping app, like all the lines are going to go towards a few. Couple people on the positive side and the negative side. There's gonna be a lot of lines leading away from those people. Like those, those are glue guys and those are the people that carry the culture and those are the people that, you know, are just rallying in the troops.

And I think those people make it fun to go to work.

Totally, dude.

And there's also like. And it's just a side effect of it, but it's a huge thing. Like I and you. And I'm sure you've been on teams like this. There were years, man, I didn't like going to work right. Like, because the guys in the QB room, it was a, it was a, it was a bad culture, it was bad, it was negative. They were like, again, the energy sucked like, and the team and, or the, like anything like the, like the whole deal, right? The entire vibe. And those are long years and they're, they're brutal and they're, you know, it's miserable. And on the flip side of that, when you get the. When it's, when it's right, right. And it's hard to put your finger on it and it's all these things we've been talking about, but man, it's fun. It's fun going to work, right? Like, and it's not necessarily based off of the results. It is more about like the daily kind of the journey. And I know, you know, not to be like corny or hokey, but like it, it does and it's manifested from that kind of energy and culture of people.

Can you teach that? Are these people just born with a certain set of experiences or DNA that that makes them this way? That's the thousand dollar question.

Don't you think you foster it as a leader and you're prob. All the time, but you, when you make a mistake, you recognize it and you like, you know, you weed them out. I mean, I think you're trying to constantly protect. Once you even have it, you're protecting it.

You know what it is? This is interesting. I actually think so. I think, I think two things on that. One, I think you can, as a leader, I think you can enhance it in people by like recognizing it. Right. I think people, people need to know how impactful they are because a lot of times the blue guys, they don't. I don't think they always get the recognition of how impactful they Are. And so I think one thing as the leader is like kind of making sure somebody knows like, yo, like our company or our team is so much better because you're here. The other thing is, I think it's like anything else. I think it's like a discipline. Like, I have a note card on my desk, literally, that says bring joy. You know this, Shane Alex, I think I've told you this, but like, literally it just says bring joy. And I like, see it every fucking morning. And even if I'm not feeling like doing it, I'm kind of like part of my responsibility, you know, as a teammate here, is to like, do that. And so I do think you can like, get better at it because you can try. You can actually feel like, you know what? Like, did I do that today? Did I, did I bring any joy today?

You know, I think you absolutely can like, set the tone for, as a leader, right? Of certainly anybody that's underneath you. And like, for me, like, again, to go back to the sports, like, Urban used to make the entire team watch special teams together, right? And he would put the special teams and he would constantly just call out high effort plays right across the board. And they were always, again, it was like going back, it was like the walk on safety. Look at this guy, look at this effort, right? And he would be, maybe even it was away from the play. And it was something that was selfless, right? Like, look at him run down here and take on these two blockers. And because he did this, it freed up this guy next to him to make the tackle, right? Like, and it was constantly reinforcing the selflessness, right? And he pointed out high effort plays. And like, I know this happens with Kyle Shanahan, right? Like when they come in on a Monday morning after a big win, like Brandon, you could have caught for like, you know, 150 yards and two touchdowns. He's putting on his block though. That freed up Christian McCaffrey for like the 70 yard touchdown and the effort play of like blocking downfield like that. And Bill Belichick, same thing. Andy Reid, like, you're, you're pointing out and reinforcing to the group, right? Like again, these high effort plays, the selflessness, the sacrifice, and it doesn't always come from the guy that gets the headline.

And why is it so hard? Why are we still talking about this? Why isn't this the norm in every group, every team? Why does anyone want to listen to this? What is it?

Got to get mine right. Isn't it that it's What? You said me, me, me. How many likes? Isn't it that?

Yeah.

I mean, look, we are a social animal, but we have evolutionary traits that we need to survive for sure. Right.

Don't you think it also starts at the top? Like I think just as much as like, yeah, we can say that everybody's inherently like, you know, wired to try and protect themselves or be self selfish like at the top. Leaders like you, you do just as much a part of this, right? Like you can say all you want, but if you don't walk the walk, then it's. This is what's going to happen, right? Like you got a team that's the.

Fractured and is it like solved with great leadership and the actual shortage, like the root cause is a shortage of great leadership. Like I don't know. That's a good theory.

I think hands down the teams I've played for, like when the success, I mean you can, you. It funnels all the way up to the top of the pyramid. Head coach, GM president, owner and owner being a part of it. Right. And the culture they set for the building, it flows down and, and probably the head coach has the biggest impact on it in, in a football world. Absolutely. Right. And I think very much, I mean I feel like I've, I've, I've been on both sides of the coin, right. Like I've, I've been in these fractured environments where it does make you selfish. Right. Like, and it does, it's again, but like on the other side, I think when it, when it's done well, then all of a sudden you can flip back and like, I don't know. I, I do think it's not like we're all perfect, right? Like we all have, you know, we all have our, and I think strong leadership at the top. That, that, that knows what they're doing and again, like they back it up. Yeah, absolutely. I think that has the biggest effect on success as a team.

Shane, do you think that Memphis culture change could have happened without Hubie? Because if you take the point, right, you guys had players that ultimately started making the change. But like if you just kind of take Alex's hypothesis, like, I don't know.

Hubie was a catalyst. Jerry west was a catalyst. And I would also argue that like look, you need rank and file to lead from the bottom up. And look, you know, when, when you're, when your best players, you know, on championship teams are the most coachable, like Jokic and shows up early and can take coaching and feedback and bounce back and show resilience and, and care about the teammates. Guess what everyone else is going to do? They're going to exhibit that sort of winning behavior. Now if your best players are shipbirds and they are showing up to practice hungover late, you know, taking nights off and yada yada, yada, guess what everyone else is going to do? They're going to mimic the best players, right? And whatever the, whatever the rank and follow does. And so while Hubie and Jerry west obviously were huge catalysts and they did change the culture, I think the peer pressure on the ground is as powerful, if not more powerful than strong leadership. Because most people again don't want to stick their neck up, they don't want to be different and people are going to float to the level of the group they're in. Pat Riley is a great saying about culture. Culture is not the ideals of what a group should be. What culture is, what is the minimum that this group will be willing to accept? The minimum. And so if that, if that floor is down here and super low, yeah, you're gonna get some shitbirds and you're gonna, you're gonna be, you know, not resilient and be late. But if your floor is like, and the minimum you'll accept is you're 15 minutes early. And the minimum you'll accept is no excuses made. And the minimum you accept is no finger pointing, guess what? That's pretty good that you can do something with that, right? And even if you don't know what the answer to the championship is, that's not seller dwelling behavior. And so obviously it's a combination. You need strong leaders to sort of hammer that home and bang that drum every single day that this is what we're about. But until you get whatever your locker room is, it could be your coffee room, it could be locker room has that floor of what the minimum you'll accept to be being super high. You're, you're going to fall short.

I totally agree with you. But I would just go back to the leadership that has the control to identify the glue guys from the shipirds, right? Like they're the ones like I, you didn't, did you have any say getting drafted by the Memphis Grizzlies?

No.

You know, like, no. So like and again and, and no leader from the personnel side from a hiring standpoint, right. Like you're not going to be perfect. But the, the, the thing that's important again is being able to identify the difference of the two. And just over time, you know, you collect the glue Guys and you get, you know, you, you constantly try to weed out the Shipbirds. Which, by the way, if there were a counterpart to this podcast, it would be the Shipbirds.

Yeah, exactly. The one thing we can't, you know, not shitbirds. You know, if you want to avoid that. You know, one thing, if you go back to like, root, root, root cause. I do wonder if the root cause. Shane, if you're like, why is this so hard for everyone? Right? So we have different ideas, different theories. One, I think, is this going back to, like, people don't know what game they're playing. I really think that's a big deal. Because if you don't know what game you're playing, you just play the game that you've observed somebody else playing. You just like, go, try to do that. You go, just try to copy it. Versus like, no, like, here's what I'm here to do. This is what I'm gonna do. I know who I am. This is what I'm trying to do. I actually think that, that, that to me is like the, the root cause of the. Why this is hard. Because if you don't know what game you're playing, you just play the game someone else is playing around you.

And you probably were getting to the same point. Don't you think a leader has an effect on that too? Like, oh, for sure. You hearing, Shane, I remember you were hearing, like, I heard this story where you're talking about Coach K called you up in the off season and was like, what do you think? What'd you think about this morning when you woke up, right? Like, he helped Foster. Like, certainly that was there. And you obviously had a. I mean, you know, I'm saying you did it, but like the planting the seeds, the motivator, like, they're like, that's the power of an amazing leader. I think that they can do that, right? Like, and, and help people with their roles on the team, you know, and constantly, I think, again, help foster that. I don't know. I, I do come back to that.

Yeah. Call it individualized consideration. That's exhausting. It's exhausting. And like great ones, great leaders do it. Most leaders do not. And it's just, it's exhausting. That was my exact question, Alex. Like, you know, is that, is that the coaches, is that the leader's responsibility to help people find self actualization?

I think so. But you know what's interesting? I, I think, I think it is the leader's job. The reason, like, I'm not 100 sure. I know what self actualization means soon. So I'm going to. I'm going to hesitate for a second of like, you know, what is that mean?

All my dreams, I've, I've found it. I've been searching for this and I've, I've realized.

I think my view is that the leader's job is to teach the person that it is their job to, like, know what game they're playing. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I don't get to tell you what game you're playing, but I get to teach you that. Like, it is your responsibility to go figure this out. And I'm here to help you because it's like the teaching them how to fish, right, Rather than giving them the fish.

What.

What I think Coach K did in that story, I hope, was sort of like get you to realize that he believed you could be whatever you wanted, right? But also to get you to want that, right? And get you to be like, that is my new goal and that is what I'm going to go do. And so I think, to me, and it's like, with kids, right? Like, our job is not to get. Give the kids the success, it's to get them to want it themselves and to get them to go earn it. And that's why it's so fucking hard. Because you, like, it's not that hard to, like, just give it to somebody. It's just very hard to get them to want to do the work to get it, you know, and that's what I think is exhausting and difficult and disciplined. But that's why it's like, great if you can do it. Also, Alex, I just want to register a complaint from earlier when you said that, you know, you were 180 pounds and couldn't bench 225. Like, you know, look, some of us are 180 pounds and have trouble benching 225 pounds. Like, you know, go easy on the.

Rest of us, you know, But I hear you. But that was also my job, right? Like, my job to be fit and strong. And literally the reason they, like, we're paying for my college education and I couldn't do it.

I'm just saying that it would be a good day in the household if I threw up to 25.

I'm just saying just to chime in my two cents. I think language is absolutely important, right? Especially from a leadership perspective. And I think kind of universally you're taught, you know, like after a game, you got to take the. You going up to the press conference, you're going to ask questions, right? And when things go bad, you say, me, right? Not. And when things go well and you win, it's we and us, right? Like, that's just. That's what good lead, you know? Yes, textbook. Textbook, you know, 101. But however, I think in. You've. We've talked about this before, like, good leaders also, like, there's the. The conflict, right? Like, the confrontation.

And I think that one thing, I do believe this is actually something my dad says a lot. My dad's like, a real leadership mentor for me, but he often says a lot, too. He's like, remember, you gotta. You can't just be, like, playing one note. You know, you have to do it different ways. So the fact that I smile a lot, the fact that I, you know, was, I hope, bringing joy. The fact that I was someone was like, yeah, like, I was generally a very positive leader. Like, we can do this. Like, we're gonna do it together. If me being pissed off every once in a while was, like, impactful, you know, because, like, oh, wow. Like, wow. This was really not, what, up to the standard, you know, and so, honestly, that was one thing that happened a lot to me as a. Is a. In a good way. My dad was a little unpredictable when I was a kid, and so some of the reason we, like, stayed in line was we were like, we don't really know how he's going to react if we, like, you know, if my brother and I step out of line. And so I would. That was. That was an interesting thing for me on, like, the value of, like, a little surprise from time to time as a leader. You know, I wasn't expecting that.

Yeah, that's. That's the old Steve Kerr story. I don't know if you guys have heard this with Steve Kerr, obviously, like, super good dude. And he played with some super alphas with the Bulls, and every now and then he felt that, like, Phil was taking him for granted and Michael, all these guys taking him for granted because he's.

He's.

He's, you know, Steve Kerr, you know, smiling. Good, good dude is going to be there, worked hard. And so about once a year, he'd walk into practice and say, today's the day. And they would be in a scrimmage and there'd be, like, a foul. He did, you know, he'd go to the hole and didn't get foul. They didn't. They didn't call it. He would just go off he would start cussing every. Cussing off Phil Jackson. He would go over to the ball rack, throw the ball rack, like into the stands, start punting basketballs, tip over the Gatorade bottle or Gatorade water bottles and say, you know what? Fuck you guys, I'm out of here. And just leave practice. And what they did is everyone's like, whoa, oh, that guy's unstable. Like, man. And guess what?

Like, I like that He.

He got respect. So I totally get that. I totally. Now, if you'd have said that's what you're trying to do, Ravi, like I told you, would have respected that. And so I took that so once a year because everyone knew I was a good guy and I played ball. I tried to go off and be insane one time a year just. Just to keep people on edge that they didn't know who I was. So, you know, always.

I couldn't have put it in those words, but I was trying to. I was trying to send a message by being pissed off from time to time. But I like that Steve Kerr story is so good. You know, Alex, Shane does this a little bit as the commissioner of our fantasy football league too. Every once in a while, you. You don't appreciate me. You know how much work I do here. And just to send a message of.

Like, does he do it over the message board? He just goes like, ape shit on the, on the group message board for the fantasy.

It is unpredictable in the messaging medium in which he does this. I would say he usually saves it for in person. We have the same weekend every year that we do our draft, and there is. You can count on him for one moment during the draft weekend of like, if you guys don't like it, why don't you guys just do it? You know, like something about that. We always say, also, the weekend doesn't start until someone questions the commissioner's integrity.

It's to be expected. It's to be expected. I. I work hard at being a commissioner. Everything I do now, I want to be top notch as I'm always trying to innovate, stay one step ahead of the curve, you know, and people don't like changing the rules. They want conservative rules and just, they want to know what to expect. But like I said, you got to change it up, keep it fresh, keep people on edge.

Well, one thing that happens is I feel like it starts with a questioning of your integrity and it ends with a four more years chant every, Every, every year. So, you know, we're happy that Shane is our commissioner.

Alex, I'm just picturing like somebody now is going to be in like an all hands meeting in a company and their version of like knocking over the basketballs and spilling Gatorade. What's that look like? You know, like set the tone with everybody.

I heard this. I heard it on a podcast.

Yeah, I'm also like, fairly confident. You know, Robbie's like, he's like one of the nicest guys. I'm fairly confident. Like, you know, his spectrum though, when he walked in to tell them that, like, you need to fix this, right? Like, and the spectrum of like, of an asshole was actually like, it was like very polite, I'm sure. But it was enough of. Off of his normal, you know, demeanor that they were like, I bet you when that door shut, they were like, oh, shit.

I think it was, it was a good surprising moment.

It was enough variable like, you know.

You know, whereas if Urban would have said something like that to you, you'd have been like, oh, Urban's being nice today.

Well, his baseline totally like, his baseline is way worse. That's, you're right. Like he, he walk like his baseline level of, you know, is not, not as high as yours.

Do you think it kind of helps to have like, kind of a tough background to be a good leader? Because I think some of this stuff of like, this like fire in some of these people, you know, I think sometimes it comes from kind of a tough place.

I don't think it's, it's essential. But tell you what, it's not a leader that, that I don't want. That hasn't been through some crap though, right. I think it's hugely additive. It's hugely additive. And you know, just understanding the brain science behind just like how our brains change is super fascinating when it comes to adversity. Like, like the human brain is actually like very lazy. It wants to, it always wants to go to stasis, right. And does not want to commit too much energy to thinking about hard problems or survival or anything. It just wants to just maintain equilibrium. And you know, what diversity does is that it just gets you out of that, that, that equilibrium, that stasis. And it makes you use resources, right? And the process, it creates, you know, new pathways and, you know, you have new perspectives and all those perspectives, they physically shape you and make you a more resilient human being. And if you do that, enough, enough, enough, enough, like, you're, you literally are a changed person. And through pattern recognition, you just, you realize, okay, look, this is a good decision. This is not a good decision. That's what we're all hoping for with our leaders, right? And so I think there's actually a biological reason why leadership sort of evolves as it, as it does, because the way we've been, we've evolved as humans over the last, last millennia. That's a super nerdy answer.

No, no, I, I, I agree with you. And I guess I misunderstood the question a little bit. Like, I don't think you necessarily have to have grown up in a rough situation. I took that.

But, but whatever. Yeah, what, whatever the stimulus, whatever the adversity is, you know, I, I think.

Like, and I'm reminded of it because, like, every year and again, to go back to the NFL world, like, every year, the NFL fires, you know, five to eight coaches and hires five to eight new ones, right? And I, people always ask me about Andy Reid, and I think one of his greatest strengths is that no matter, he's the same every day. And that when you're the head coach of an NFL team, inevitably you're gonna, you're gonna have some rough patches and that seat gets hot, right? Like, all of a sudden they're calling for your job. You've, you've lost, you know, a bunch of games in a row. Like, are you gonna fire your coordinators? What are you gonna do? Like that, that seat gets really hot. It's a pressure cooker. And most people change under that pressure because they haven't been there before, right? And Andy's greatest strength, I think, is, like, it just is unwavering. Even he was built, right? He was built for it. Like, I, I mean, I never. We started one in five, the one year with him, one in five. And, like, the sky, that, the sky is falling. Like, you're one in five. And we, we were a playoff team the year before, and it's like heads are gonna freaking roll, right? In most places. That's what you do because you start making these, like, irrational decisions, firing this guy, like, and then actually, you, you usually, like, exacerbate the situation, right? Like. Cause firing somebody in the middle of season usually is a, you know, things aren't going well. Like, and I'll never forget, like, he just unflappable, right? Like, we all are going to do our job a little better was the message, right? We all just need to do our job a little better. And again, it was we going back to, like, the language. I'm, I'm, I'm at the heart of this, right? And I'll never forget, like, we route like, to go on a roll. We rattled off 11 in a row. It was, like, the first playoff win in Kansas city in, like, 30 years, right? And it was a season that started. And to go back to the hiring process of these NFL coaches, you don't know, though, like, nobody's ever sat in that seat. Like, certainly sometimes we do get the recycled coaches, but more often than not, they've been an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator, and again, you can kind of hide in those positions sometimes. Like, there. There. There is no, like, predecessor for that position of being the head coach and, like, facing the music. And again, are you built for it? Like, and are you, like, have you built up enough callous from the struggle you've been through? Right, Like, Shane, like, to be. To be ready for that situation. And so often if they hire these young, hot coordinators that are amazing X's and O's guys. But being a head coach is a whole different animal, right? And that's why, I mean, I think the success rate is so low for hiring a coach. Like, it's so low.

I think it's more than adversity, which I agree. I know you guys are gonna agree. I actually think that whatever it is, you have to have felt desperation at some point, and you have to have come out on the other side of that thing, because I think the feeling. You can't manufacture a feeling of desperation. It's a very unique feeling of, this has to work. I have to get through this. But once you've felt that and then to your point, get to the other side, you sort of like, oh, wow, I dealt with that. I can deal with other things. And then I. Personally, I think different people respond differently, but I respond to what you just said on the Andy Reid style. A lot of, like, I like. I have a poem that I keep, which is if by Rudyard Kipling. And the first line is, if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, that, to me, is just, like, such a good embodiment of what it means to be a leader. It's like, you gotta stay steady, right? And if you're gonna be off that, you need to do it on purpose, right? You need to be purposefully moving off that. And again, back to, like, parenting. I think that ideally, when you're, like, mad at your kids, you're doing it on purpose to, like, send a message rather than, like, actually being pissed off right, at this, like, you know, child. I think there's, like, real value in, like, you don't it doesn't matter what your background is, but you need to have had moments where you have felt desperate and you have to have, like, gotten through them. And then you kind of learn that, like, you're going to be fine, you're going to get through things. And I think particularly now you, I think adaptability, resilience, like, it's hard to imagine things that are more valuable than that, that you were trying to, like, teach to anybody, you know? Cause, like, bad shit's gonna happen for sure.

And I think that mindset, again, that, like, it is gonna happen, right? As opposed to that when it comes, it's, it's too much. I think almost universally, like, and again, the things like when I reflect on what makes good teams and good leaders and, you know, a glue guy and like, all these things, so many of these things are transfer, Transferable As a parent, right. Like, I think into your, into your family unit and like, it's, it's, it's funny how, like, I find myself and it's probably the most challenging thing for me personally in my life is toeing the line and doing these things right? Like, as, as, you know, as a parent and a leader of my family. And again, so much of it does come back to, like, it's not what you say, right? And it's, it's your actions. Do they back that up? Right? Like, I, I. And it's, I mean, that's obviously a whole nother maybe series of podcasts, but it is funny to think about.

Alex, remind me of your kids ages.

My boys are 13 and 11, and my daughter's 8.

Okay, good. So, you know, the, the teenage, you know, this is all great, you know, like Mike Tyson says, everyone, everyone has a plan to get punched in the mouth, you know, and that's what I learned with teenage hormones. So you're, you're start there, you know, guys, a little later than the girls, but, you know, someone who's the, is, is the old man on this, on this podcast. You know, all the leadership, all the parenting books and phrases and philosophies you have, they get tested when you get punched in the mouth by, by teenage hormones. So how old are, how old are you? And Ello is 13.

Yeah, going.

Going.

16. Yes. Yeah, going.

Yeah, ours are 11, 11, nine, as you guys know. And like, look, parenting is hard because it's hard, but, like, is definitely easier with three boys at that age than it is as they get older, for sure, right? Like, the, like, little kids, little problems that, that's, that's what's going on in our house, you know, like. And so. But I agree with you. It's like all these leadership lessons, the hardest place to implement them is at home, for sure. And the consistency of doing the right thing and the consistent and not doing the Disney speech when you want to get something done, I totally resort to that. And I can see them fucking zoning out when I'm at minute three of this Great speech. Maybe second three.

Well, that's one of my favorite quotes of all time, and I try to remember this. And certainly we could do a whole, you know, weak on. On what we learned from our fathers, but the quote is, you know, it's what we learn from our fathers when they're not trying to teach us that matters.

Oh, yep, that's good. That's good.

That gets that. That's right there. We could go on for days about stories of just observing, and, you know, we all have stories about our parents growing up, but it is so true about what. What we observed. The way they treat people, the way they talk, the way they work, you know, that that is why we are the men and the fathers and the husbands that we are today. And like, I. I always try to remember that when my kids are around and I can't stand them because they're hormonal and they're yelling at me because I'm saying, you know, skibidi, riz, Ohio, and. And all this stuff. And, you know, it's. It's what they pick up on when I'm. When I'm just being a goofball and that. That really matters at the end of the day. And, you know, and that's what I remember. And my dad passed away a few years ago, but, like, all those times when, like, he was not a learned man, he wasn't a very educated man or even professionally successful man, but, like, he taught me so much, and, like, he didn't even mean to. To do it right. And so that's one of the most powerful quotes, no doubt.

I just say it's. It's just. It's just. Fuck. It's fucking hard to execute on, though, because there's all these things that go back to, like. Like, there's all these things that I, at my core, believe as, like a. As a. As a teammate, leader, human being of, like, on a professional level. And then I. I, like, I'll. I'll reflect on a parenting, like, moment after it happened, and I'm like, well, why? I. I believe in these things. But, yeah, I didn't do Them, like, right there I had a moment, like, with my son or something that, like, I could have. And then, like, it's just hard, right? Like, I'll be like, I totally botched that, you know? And, like. Like, why did I react like that? Or, you know, like, it's funny. Like, it just. It's like at the core of who I am, you know? And again, all of a sudden. But that's my point. Like, sometimes I don't think of the family and certainly my role as a parent like that.

But it, you know, you know, just like you said, it's because. Or at least to me partly, I, like, believe in the value of struggle so much, right? I believe in value of adversity, but I don't like seeing my kids suffer. Right? Like, that sucks, you know? And so you're always trying to, like, minimize it. And like, you and I talk about all the time. It's like, no, like, you gotta, like, find it and find it in a good way where it's like, low stakes because it's at your house or all this stuff. But, like, yeah, it's just like, I know it's valuable, but God damn, I have such a hard time, like, allowing it to happen instead of, like, trying to prevent it. And it's funny because when I talk to both of you guys, you guys actually both are very good about, like, you. When I say it, you're kind of laughing like, yeah, but like, that's. That's a good thing, right? Like, the thing that's on my mind is like, something they're about to struggle with. And you're like, yeah, like, I. I think it's a good thing. But it's like, it says that lesson. It's easy to be sanguine about someone else's problems, you know, when they're your own, they seem like a big deal. When they're your friends, you're kind of like, oh, man. Like, you're gonna be fine. This me, okay?

100%. That's why you gotta have good friends.

That's why you gotta have good friends. You gotta have good friends. You also have to be willing to talk to them. You gotta. You gotta tell them the truth about what the hell's going on rather than just like, not, you know, because, like, you don't get it otherwise. Like, Shane, I remember during COVID I think a bunch of our zooms sometimes with Mike D. As well. Like, those are helpful. Like, you just, like, get to talk, you know, this is what's going on. I think as guys it's easy to avoid that, too.

Oh. As men 100, you know, and. And, you know, we haven't really gone into our personal journeys today. We've. We've done everything but that. But, you know, one of. One of the most important, impactful lessons that I learned in my life came when I was, you know, 36, 37 years old, and it was about vulnerability and the conversations that we had over zoom. Like, there was no way I could have done that at 27. No way.

No way.

And being. Just being incapable of being a person of fame or stature or whatever and never letting down the veil and letting anyone in, like, that's just par for the course, right? And I wouldn't even know how to do that. And it wasn't until I really had to work on myself and really flex that muscle and develop that muscle to be like, yeah, man, it's all right. It's all right to let people in, and especially people who, you know, care about you and, you know, that's one of the lessons my dad never taught me. I wish. I wish he would have. But thankfully, I think we're in a better era as father and his men, where that's. That's way more accepted.

That was a lot of fun for me.

I'd say we wrapped there.

That's great.

Thanks for tuning in to Glue Guys. We're on social media at Glue Guys Podcast, and we'll be back next week.