Mandell Crawley - From Chicago's West Side to Morgan Stanley's C-Suite - [Glue Guys, EP.48]

It's also a reflection of perspective. You lost your mom when she was 22 years old. You lost your dad at 39. It was not an easy road, right, by any means. And so you could easily not have a feeling of, I've been given so much. Is this a choice to be grateful?

It's a heavy question. You know, the world has plenty for the optimists and the pessimists. My natural posture is being optimistic.

Well, today we have an amazing, amazing guest. Our friend of the show, longtime listener of Blue Guys. We finally got him on the show. We were thrilled to welcome Mandel Crawley, a Chicago born trailblazer who turned a high school internship at Morgan Stanley into a 30 plus year career at Morgan Stanley where now he resides in the C suite. And he has led fixed income sales, he has led rebranding the Morgan Stanley brand. He has been head of hr. He has put on literally every hat at Morgan Stanley. But more importantly, his journey through life and the lessons that he's learned from a very young age has made him a well respected leader and just great guy on Wall street and beyond. And so Revie and I got to know him when we took Glue Guys on the road last year in Southern California and we, we spent 45 minutes just chopping it up with Mandel and just had an amazing conversation and we said we have to get Mandel on the show. He's, he's just an amazing guy and our listenership will absolutely love to hear his wisdom. And so we hope that you enjoy the conversation with Mandela, probably of Morgan Stanley, Glue Guy listener, but also a Glue guy himself.

He's also the first guest to be wearing a blazer I think she's wearing if I'm not mistaken.

And so you know, Mandel, I, I, I, I get in trouble for wearing a collared shirt which I always wear because I, I like to keep it classy. There might be a golf, a golf match that breaks out so they, they're busting my chops. I, and so you know, Ravi's being so nice to you, I have to.

Tell you, like, look, we're going to expect a lot more real, real than the suit would imply.

Look on the wall, man. Look behind me. You know, it doesn't get much realer than that.

You know, I agree with you. I do think that this is going to be a great topic conversation. Like the artwork in your office is definitely, you have got to be the only person at Morgan Stanley or any of the major banks that has the artwork that's over Your shoulder.

That's correct.

Which is, I think, like, a good place to start. So, Mandel, I think for most people, we don't let them get away with, like, tell us their background.

Yeah.

But yours is actually fascinating.

Right.

You've been at Morgan Stanley for over 30 years, but you're a young guy, and so I think you started at 17. Morgan Stanley, if I'm not mistaken. And it's not an obvious journey to have gotten there. And so tell people about how you grew up, tell you where you're from. I know we're both from Illinois, but I'd love a little bit of the background.

Sure. No, I appreciate it, guys. And again, just an honor to be here with you. So my story, and I'll try to keep it punchy. Kid from Chicago, you know, from the. The west side of the city, which, Robbie, you would know that area fairly well. And Shane, with your Detroit roots, I mean, the city's. You know, it's amazing the parallels between the. Between the two, but my parents were high school sweethearts. They went to Marshall High School on the west side of the city and met connected, got married extraordinarily young. Three boys were born. I'm the middle kid. So when I hear you guys talking about your kids, Robbie, particularly with your boys, and I know you got the twin thing going, whoever's the middle kid is the one I'm rooting for. I'll tell Shrey, because that is a real thing. That is a real thing when you're the middle kid. And unfortunately, with my brothers and I, we experienced quite a bit of trauma early, starting with the loss of our mother. So our mom, who this amazing woman was only 22 years old, had an aneurysm during complications delivering my younger brother. And they were able to save him and not save her. I was days before my second birthday. My older brother was, I think, four years old or something like that. And so when you experience that loss, I mean, obviously your. Your life will. It can't be the same, but you're so young where, frankly, you don't have an appreciation for the gravity of it all. And my dad, who he wanted to hold it all together, he was in the military and, you know, was just starting his own professional, you know, life. He was just overwhelmed and candidly, just couldn't hold it together. And, you know, alcoholism, drugs, and, you know, he had his own demons, if you will. Eventually the state gets involved. And one of the things, Robbie, in knowing your family story, we lived in Harvey, Illinois, for sure. Oh, yeah.

This is how we first connected.

Yeah. And we lived in Harvey. And I remember, even as a young lady, the school getting involved because my brother and I were. My older brother and I were showing up to school, like, with clothes, super disheveled, not really eating because my dad was, again, not coming home. And we were at real risk of the state getting involved in breaking up the boys. Long story short, my grandparents gets involved, my mom's parents, my maternal grandparents, and they saved us, right? So all three of us raised together by them. Classic black American family, you know, born in Mississippi, migrated to the Midwest in the 50s, part of that great migration. And as we know, these single decisions that are not ancestors, but in this case, my grandparents made changes. The slope of the gradient, right? The slope of the curve. It's just different because of that one decision. And they raised us, you know, my brothers and I. And it was all about church. It was all about the Boys and Girls Club, and it was all about school. I oftentimes say, guys, my greatest claim to fame in life is I never missed a day in elementary school. Perfect attempt. I went to Will Catherine Elementary School on the west side of Chicago. Now, it helped that I was a block away from the school, you know, and in those days when you were sick, you still went to school. But that was our existence. So we lost a lot with our mom and in my dad, who was in our lives episodically. But my grandparents were a real anchoring point for us. And the last thing I'll just say, guys, is my dad ended up. He was killed as a young man. He was 39 years old back in 1994. I was 17, 18 years old. And, you know, he had all of his complications. But, you know, you still root for your parents. And I love my dad deeply. So there's a lot of trauma that we experienced, but the grandparents were our heroes, and they. My grandmother, who was at the center of everything for us. We lost her when I was 16, though, to cancer. And that's when, you know, guys, my life as an adolescent was over, right? And I became an adult and had some responsibilities raising my younger brother. And I'm sure we'll maybe unpack some of the balance of that.

Well, Mandel, what struck me about meeting you for the first time? Last year we met at Morgan Stanley Private Wealth Conference, where Robbie and I did a Glue Guys on the Road for first time. And we had a great day, but we spent about. About four to five minutes together in. In the green room, just talking. And I was struck by just Just meeting you, I felt that I've known you for forever.

100.

You know, it was a true Blue Guys. It should have been the first Blue Guys episode with you, my friend. It was that good. And, you know, it's amazing. And you were very forthcoming about your, your early difficulties in your traumas. So were you always this authentic? Were you always this open? Were you always this vulnerable in, in the midst of, of trauma, growing up on, on the, you know, the west side of Chicago, facing everything that you faced?

You know, I, I, if you ask my brothers that question, you, you probably get a very different, a very different answer. I think so. I really think so, guys. Meaning, at least in terms of the, the vulnerability you'll bed and having, you know, some measure of, of emotional intelligence. And, and I think some of that was just born out of some of that aforementioned history. Just being really attentive to people and being really sensitive to folks who, who maybe lack resources or, you know, classic, like, kid stories were being bullied or whatever. I think I've always had a sense around that, and I do think that that sort of traveled with me throughout my life. But, you know, the whole, and you guys have talked about this a bit in some of the prior episodes, like the nurture, nature sort of dynamic. I'm not sure what the exact answer is, but I do think it's been part of my personality.

That's an amazing story, because if you're a black executive, that's the last thing you want to show anybody, you know, and over, over the years, I've gotten to know guys like Dick Parsons and Ken Chenault and, you know, true, true lions who of, of just the black executive, I mean, they paved the way for so many people. And those were tough dudes. Like, really, really tough dudes. And when they tell their, their war stories of the boardroom and the C suite, of really, really tough discussions I've had with people, vulnerability is not one of the things that ever came up in those, in those discussions. And so, so to hear that someone who sits in the C suite now as a very successful black executive, like, you're, you're a rare bird of rare birds. And, and so, like, do you appreciate that?

I think both things can be true. Like, I, because of my upbringing, my lived experiences, I think I'm a pretty tough dude, you know, with, with an appropriate edge, for sure. But I would almost argue and having the good fortune of knowing both those names that you referenced, and obviously, God bless, Dick Parsons passed away not that long ago, and I recently Had a coffee with, with Ken, who's just feel just iconic for a whole host of reasons. I think you almost have to be showcase of vulnerability and less of an edge when you're in sort of this context where you're one of few people. Surely if you go back to the beginning of my journey, you know, going back to the 90s and the 2000s, when, you know, growing up in a trading desk environment, I used to tell the story of one of the traditions in the sales and trading environment is when you were doing a transaction with a counterparty and something went awry and in frustration you break your phone. It was almost like a badge of honor. Like you'd be so robby, you might appreciate that. And I would never do that. I would never do that back in the day because I said because I always had this fear of being like the angry black guy, right. And so I guess in that sense I wasn't being super authentic. I was basically doing what sometimes we have to do. And that's you kind of do a little bit of your role play. You put on a different Persona because you want to be liked and you want to be well received and you don't want to feed into any stereotype. But it's fair to say because for folks and my colleagues watch this, I got over that over time. But early on it was something that I really struggled with.

Yeah, see, it's interesting. Shane, I totally agree with you. Of like that conversation that we had with you. Mendel in Southern California. By the way, again, shout out to Victoria Bailey for putting us all in touch together. She was the reason that we all got to know each other. And she was so confident beforehand. She said, you guys are going to love each other, to hang out. You're going to love each other. And it's so interesting because like Shane, where you say vulnerability for Mandel, I say security, which is to me. And maybe they're two sides of the same coin, right? Because the willingness to sort of just be like, yeah, this is the way it was when I was growing up. These are some of the things that I'm excited about. These are some things that are challenging. Like one of the way Mandel, you and I became friends was, you know, you've called at different moments to say, hey, look, I'm thinking about this and maybe you have a perspective that might help me. And, and I've done the same with you. But I think that I view that as like, man, like you're so confident of like, you're not going to Think I'm an idiot. You're just going to try to help me. And I admire it so much because I think the ability to just be who you are, the ability to say what you think, to ask for help, those, to me, I recognize them as vulnerability, but in my brain, those are security, you know, because it's just like, I. I'm not going to worry about you thinking poorly of me. I'm just going to try and get better. I'm just going to try and be real. And so I don't know. I don't even know if there's a question in there as much as it is just an observation of, like, maybe Shane, for you. I don't know.

Do you.

Do you think that there's, like, security that comes along with that?

Yeah.

After a lot of success. Yeah. On the way up, it's hard. Yeah, it's. It's really difficult when you're fighting out there and just trying to make a name for yourself and you're climbing that ladder. And Mandela, you have an amazing podcast about maintaining your authenticity when you're climbing the corporate ladder that I watched before the show. But look, you know, the winners were at the history books, right? So when you win, it's. Oh, yeah, this method was. Was easy, and it was. It was almost destined to.

To.

To be. But when you're trying, when you're trying to grind and you're on, you're going on your way up, you're. You're scared. You're scared of showing weakness. And we've talked about this, you know, and so it's easy for me to say, oh, yeah, it's easy to be vulnerable, you know, winning two NBA championships and being in College Basketball hall of Fame. But it's.

It's. It's. It's.

It's really hard. But at the same time, you get to a point where, you know, I, I think what you said about security and just being confident in who you are and being okay with who you are, that. That's kind of the moment.

That's.

That's kind of the moment it all comes out. And if you can be yourself, that's the turning point, I think, in all of our lives.

Yeah, I think that. Go ahead, Mandel.

Sorry. No, I was going to say, I mean, look, as we know, code switching is exhausting. Right. When you're putting on different caricatures depending on, you know, the environment that you're in, I mean, that. That is just hard to sustain. But I, I will. I'm gonna, you know, I have to share this with you guys because it's, it's really important to me. The, the vulnerability piece, I would say that that is the superpower of this pot. The thing that I, that resonated with me most about listening to Glue guys and all the guests that you've had on. I mean, and it has run the gamut business through, sports, leadership, and I can name pretty much everyone that's been on this pod. The theme that travels well, particularly across the three of you is the word, you know, vulnerability. Frankly, you know, Robbie, I had the courage to call you up and be pretty raw with you because you, you know, listening to you talk about, you know, the KKR years, talk about the Instacart years and, you know, and I mean, just the Sequoia years, like, you know, just along the way, you know, and then, and then Alex, I mean, God, you hear Alex talk, you know, the 49er years. Yeah, right. And then just the context. And obviously, Shane, how you've had to. How you had to reinvent yourself, like being the guy, and then you, you show up, you know, in Miami in terms of what your role is and accepting, not just accepting that role, but being dominant in that context. Like, that's what this pod is all about. So I appreciate you guys calling this out a bit because it is who I am. I'm proud of it. You know, I always say it's my Brene Brown, you know. You know, Gene, if you will. I think it's important, and I hadn't thought about it that way. That that is actually, it's security versus insecurity. Because I think when I called you, I said.

Well, so this is the thing. And so this is, this is something I've been thinking about. And then I want to. I have a question for you, Mandel, but I actually find that I am bored out of my mind when I'm talking to certain people now because it's basically like talking to an LLM. Like, if somebody's not vulnerable, if somebody's not real, it literally to me is like talking to chat GPT. Because I'm like, if you're just going to tell me the answer that I know is the right answer, right? Like there's no, there's nothing interesting. Like I'm not engaged, right? You actually need something that is imperfect, that is, you know, real in order to be engaged in the topic, because otherwise it feels indistinguishable from, like, you know, talking to a machine. And so truly, like, so much of what I think is Actually gaining in value. And I think you were way early to. This is just like, dude, the more you're yourself, the more it's actually interesting to other people too. And so Mandel, one thing though I did want to talk about was I think young people often think that careers are very linear.

Right.

You do this, you do this, you do this and then you do this. And I think that people could have very much the wrong idea about your career from the length of time you've been at Morgan Stanley.

Right.

Like one of the things I admire is the number of different things you've done inside of this place. And like, just to give an example, you ran Private wealth and then you were the head of hr.

Yeah.

And that is not a typical path.

And I don't know what you've done before.

So can you talk to us a little bit about maybe the Sheryl Sandberg idea of this like jungle gym? Much more so than like a career ladder? Like that feels very real for you.

No, actually that episode is one of my faves in that the jungle gym analogy really resonated. I think she also talked about your airliners and you know, safety versus baggage claim.

Baggage, baggage.

And so good, so good food. Look, I think, I think in order for your hunch and right. Careers are far more obviously they're just far more securitious than they are, you know, linear. And my career has absolutely evidenced that. And I think in order for that to happen, in order for that to be true, and I say this to young people all the time, the variable that you can't compromise is growth. Right. You actually have to be proximate to where growth is ultimately happening. Frankly, something Cheryl said in her book Lean in, she talked about boarding. You said you got to board the rocket ship. I think with the metaphor that you use in the book all those years ago, and I think that that happens to be true because Morgan Stanley, over my 30 plus year career, I mean, we've gone from this. It's a 90 year history institution. If you go back to 1992, what the market cap was then, the number of employees versus what we have now, clearly the place has grown a lot. So that's created the opportunity. And I've had good folks here at the place that have said, hey, I actually think you could do this, or we think this will be a great sort of stretch for you. So I've been fortunate in that regard. But as the way I describe it, guys, and this maybe Shane gets a little bit to your day job. I talked about it as a series of J curves. Because just when you feel like you've not necessarily mastered something, but you're pretty comfortable in the seat, and then you move into this new space and it's like, oh, you know, you're starting all over again. It's really uncomfortable. So it's like you're originating risk, which is great because the upside could be really good, but it is painful. As you guys know, pivoting is not easy. Everybody.

I call that productive discomfort.

Yes. I like that.

And it's one of my glue guy traits I'm writing a book about, but a whole chapter on productive discomfort. And the second you realize that you can put yourself in a situation where you're comfortable with the uncomfortable, then you'll grow.

Yeah, right.

We're. We're so used to being in our bubble where you just. We're safe. Safe people don't. Don't build mountains, you know, or build. Build bridges, right? They don't climb mountains. Safe people just stay where they are. So it's. Again, those are. Those are the little. You know, and these are not things like you. You're taught. You know, one day it sort of clicks, like, if I want to do this, I just gotta. I just gotta go out there and jump in the ocean and. And hope. I hope I learned to swim, you know?

Yeah, look, it's. It's one where, you know, again, it's just so generalist versus specialists debate that we oftentimes have. And. And we all know that a lot of times like to accumulate growth or wealth. You know, concentration is kind of the. The thing. And, And. And I've had moments, you know, in my journey back to this idea of being vulnerable. I'm like, yeah, is this really the right thing, being the generalist or you're broad versus the ability to go deep? I don't know. What do. What do you guys think about that? I mean, the generalist versus specialists dynamic.

You want to go, Shannon, you want me to go?

It's such a prisoner's dilemma, right? It's like, hey, why don't you go ahead and be a generalist? All right?

It's great for your career.

You know, you get to do a lot of things, and then you turn around and you're like, no, I gotta be really good at one thing here to provide my value to my enterprise, right? And so, you know, we were talking about being a generalist. It's the best advice in the world.

Try everything.

But when you have to, you know, put your money where your mouth is, it's really hard to step in that. That direction. Right. Cause you just. People are selfish and they want to create value for themselves. Again, it goes back to being secure in who you are, understanding who you are. That like, look, if I stretch myself, if I put myself out there and I accumulate all these skills, you know, in a small way, I was like you, Mandela. I ran analytics for a professional basketball team for the Miami Heat, and I was a religion major. I. I don't know any data science. So, like, I'm walking in the room with guys that. And gals that were way smarter than me. I'm trying to tell them, you know, my vision for data analytics. And so I was able to survive for five years. But.

But you were part of life. You were a practitioner.

I mean, I mean, yeah, it's true. You had some parts that you were less schooled in, and you had some.

Parts that you were uniquely schooled in.

You're the archetype. Dude knows that all.

I don't know.

Like, as Robbie says, I was spiky when it came to analytics.

Yeah, I agree.

Spiky, yeah. I don't know.

What do you.

What do you think, Mandela? Such a good question. And I so. I'm so happy you're kind of like, yeah, like, wasn't always obvious to go and do it. Like, if you weren't thinking twice when they asked you to go run HR after you were running a huge business inside of Morgan Stanley, you wouldn't be human. Right? Like, because it's not obvious. And so I. A couple of things come to mind, Shane, when I think about it. One, Mandela, you remind me in this way of my friend Rob Lewin, who also listens to glue guys. He's the CFO of kkr. And Rob started as like a private equity, you know, associate. And, you know, it was awesome. Did that and then at one point moved to Asia when we were starting that business and worked on private equity and then came back from Asia and worked on the balance sheet. And then, you know, you just did a bunch of different things. Before he became. I think he ran IR then I think he actually think he ran hr too, and then became the cfo. And I think there's a big thing that goes on when you do that inside of one organization, which is trust. Like, Rob trusted kkr and you clearly have trusted Morgan Stanley, right? Of like, hey, look, like, okay, I'm going to believe in the system. I'm going to believe that, you know, you're going to give me some room to go do this. Well and you're also, you have my, you have a plan and a thought for me and I'm going to trust that it's going to figure it out. And I really admire that because it's very hard. SHANE Just like you said, it's very hard to trust an institution when you are just one member of it, right? And you know, people around you are sort of oftentimes distrustful of the institution. But you know, it's so attractive. Like, you know, I am so much more interested in your point of view on Morgan Stanley than anyone else's. Mandel right? Because like I know that you know that there are imperfections, but you're like, listen, like for all of it, when you tell someone long term, it works out, you're like, look, I lived it, I did it. So I think, SHANE maybe on the generalist versus specialist, I don't know if there's like a direct this is what you should always do. But I think what I observed that you did, Mandel, was a little bit of like go perform, decide who was worth trusting and if they were worth trusting, be willing to try new things. And I think those are good lessons. And I think about that for Rob Lewin too.

When you're giving that advice to young people, how do they receive that? You know, when they're seeking, they come to the altar, Mendel Crawley and you're telling them, hey, try it all, you know, how do they accept that?

You know, so I have this simple framework that there's two frameworks that I refer to often, right, in the context of talent. One is when do you know it's time to start at least thinking about doing something different. There's four questions, right? Am I learning? Am I growing? Am I having impact? Am I happy? And we know the happiness piece could be very tricky because there's a lot of variables that can influence that. But I think you should be able to answer yes to all of those things. Learning, growing, impact, happy. But if you start to answer no to those questions, I think it's a good framework to ask yourself every year, right on the back of a napkin, right? You know, those four things. And then if you answer no, particularly answer no to more than one of those questions, then it's probably time to start thinking about your next. And the next is something that I stole from. I think it was Jim Collins from good to Great. You know, he had this framework of like a Venn diagram of, you know, what's the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning? Like Something that you're really excited about, right? And it's not just about like what are you passionate about, but something that it's a problem that you really like, you know, get fired up about. And then the second variable was are you any good at it? Right? So there's got to be, you know, the competency has got to be there. And then the third circle back to this theme that I mentioned earlier is growth, right? Is there a real market, you know, for it? So I say to young people, four questions. And then when you trying to start thinking about what could make sense for you, and this is in the instance where you don't have somebody that tapped on your door and say, hey, we think you'll be really good at this. Here's a framework that you can use to start thinking about the art of the possible. But I say to young people all the time is that look, in the short run, the market can be stupid, can be completely irrational, as we know. But long term, it's not even just about long term, greedy. But over time the market tends to find the efficient frontier. And so as we know with young people, they can be really impulsive. And I always talk about impulse control, right? Because young people get caught up in the relative. Like they see what their friends are doing and so maybe I should be doing this too.

Explain what being young and impulsive is to Shane. He never was impulsive. This guy was a machine. Knew from time he was six years old, he was going to be a professional basketball player. But I feel you, Mandel. Shane Brother Badier has been a grown up since he was a kid, in my opinion. You know, you tell me, Shane.

I'm living my adolescence now, living my impulsive, my best impulsive life now.

Okay, keep going, Mandel. Sorry.

No, no, I think that, I just think it's just, you know, with, you know, we get so impulsive and I think for this thing to work and there's no, as we know, there's not one way. I mean, some ways young people look at me like a dinosaur, right? Like who stays at one institution for three decades. That's something that our grandparents did. You know, my grandfather was at Oscar Mayer as a factory worker for 35 years. Right. But as you said, I mean, I've had the good fortune of operating in very different genres, domains and build different muscle. And candidly, that's been the stickiness for me.

What was the hardest one?

Easily the human capital job. Running hr.

That's what I thought you were going to say.

Yeah, running HR and As you know, initially, it was not on my bingo card. I didn't wake up one day and say, ah, this is. I didn't. I didn't do that framework thing. I just talked about, ah, this is the answer. I didn't do that.

After Covid. I mean, Covid kind of thrust you into this position. Okay, so we're dealing with the global pandemic and everything that came along with that. And now you are head of hr.

So we. So our former chairman and CEO legend, this guy, James Gorman, had ultimately reached out in late 2020. So Covid was already full on, and he was going through. He's getting ready for succession for himself, but he was also thinking about his leadership team and the guy who was running HR for us for a decade and a half, this great guy, Jeff Brodsky, was transitioning, and my name was on the, you know, the board from a succession perspective. And so James reaches out, and when he first asked me, I'm like, there's no way I'm doing this. Robin, you said it earlier. Stepping away P and L private wealth, which is the coolest job at the plant. Interesting family, super competitive industry, intellectually stimulated. There's no way I'm doing this. And, you know, James is pretty influential. And you guys have talked about your mentors and. And folks you've worked for in the past and the influence that they've had. And. And you used the word earlier, trust, right? Yeah. So when he asked. When he asked a second time, he's not asking. Right. You're. Whatever. Whatever you thought your optionality was, it's gone. Right. And it's like, of course, this, like.

The president, you know, don't make the president ask you twice.

And guys, what I didn't appreciate there was Covid. And so there was this human crisis, obviously, there was. We acquired a couple of companies during this time, and we frankly acquired those companies virtually because we. Everybody's on zoom. Yeah, we went through succession. You know, James went through his own succession. So having the opportunity to be proximate to all of that at a place where you got 80,000. We went from 60,000 employees to 81,000 employees during that period of time and the velocity of labor and the great resignation and everything that was happening, I mean, I learned so much. And to your earlier point, I really learned the soul of the organization in a real way, globally. And so hardest job, but easily the most rewarding one that I've had to date.

Well, you often talk about purpose and profit. Don't have to be mutually Exclusive. Right. And there's a lot of false critics that would argue. No, no, no, no. It's one of the other. Mandel. So talk about your philosophy of marrying. I purpose right with, you know, generate, you know, generating some revenues.

Yeah, look, I. I think that's like Nirvana, right. The utopian, you know, backdrop for me is I really love what I do. I love who I do it with and can be rewarded for it. And in that is real in varying pockets of the capital markets or the cap. Sorry, the capitalist ecosystem here in this country where you do have an opportunity to choose to where you can earn a great living, but you can obviously do it in spaces that are fairly noble. Like, I would argue folks like Victoria Bailey and others, I mean, they. What they do is. It's in the financial services arena, but you are helping families, you know, solve complicated problems and oftentimes say the fees are earned when you're. It's not if I should buy Coke or sell Pepsi. That's. That's obviously being commoditized on some level. But when you're dealing with families who are thinking about next generation and how they want to transition their money or how they want to give as a. As part of their. Their social capital or their philanthropic capital, like, to me, that's an example of where I have an opportunity to do well, but also do some good along. Along the way. And I think it's a bit of a false choice that I have to choose one or the other. And obviously I'm not naive about this. There are some people who they keep score based on, you know, how much money I make. Right. And how big the balance sheet is. And as we all know, guys like, there's always somebody with more.

Yes. Well, one of the things Mandel that I think shows up in that is you can just tell I've said this before, but I really believe this. Like, Phil Knight in Shoe Dog has this great quote, right? Which is. He's like, after he started Nike, people like, you're an amazing salesperson. You're an amazing salesperson. And he always goes back. He's like, like, it's weird. He's like, I sold bonds and I sucked. I sold encyclopedias and I sucked. He's like, I was not a good salesperson. He's like, but when I sold Nikes, I was a great salesperson because I actually believe that you should, like, go running every day. I like, really believe it's like, good for you to go do this. And I believe we make the best shoes. And so he's like, it's not that I was a good salesperson, it's that I actually believed it. Like, belief is the thing. And so the thing that comes through with you on like the perfect purpose and profit piece is like, it's not a buzzword, it's not a set of words, it's not a platitude. It's like you actually believe it when you say Morgan Stanley has a soul. And you understand it, you believe it and you lived it by being there for three decades. So I think that, that's what I think is unique.

Right?

Which is like, you got it. People want to follow people that believe, you know, and I can see why people would want to follow you because you do believe it.

Yes, yes, no, I appreciate that, partner. I, I would tell you, I mean going back to my experiences, my lived experiences and we know that, you know, some of the great Pat Summitt said, God bless her, many years ago you went in life with people and Lord knows with all of the trauma and the early adversity, having varying people, some I knew well, some were complete strangers that played a meaningful role in my getting here. It's that old adage to whom much is given, much is required. And so I know the responsibility that I now have to folks who are coming behind me to do the exact same same thing. So that's a really important, you know, aspect of, of who I am.

Doing some writing the other day and, and thinking about your story, about when I was young, like I, I didn't, like I wanted to play in the NBA one day but it was just about like I just want to be the best I can be. You know, I wasn't trying to, to be a national champion and you know, NBA champion. Like as you go along the road, you, you kind of like change your goals. Like, oh, I can do that. Let's, let's, let's do that. And so I just want to know when you're a 17 year old kid slinging muni bonds from Morgan Stanley, I.

Mean.

And 20, 25, you know, time machine comes, you step out, you're Talking to your 17 year old self slinging uni bombs and Morgan Stanley like what do you think young Mandel is even thinking about? Who is this guy and how is this even real?

Well, so if any of my colleagues watch this, they'd fact check me. So technically when I started in 92, I was at Dean Witter. So this is before Morgan Stanley and Dean Witter merged and at 17 years old, guys, when I showed up to the interview. It's an important story. I had on a gold suit, black shirt, black and gold tie. And I'm looking at the other guys on the desk, I'm like, look how these guys are dressed. I look way better than those guys. I want to get a job.

Nice.

So that's how it began. The last thing I was doing, last thing they were going to have me do is sell anything, right? I was running errands and grabbing lunches, you know, essentially and doing some operational trade adjustment stuff. But as I progressed, particularly when I started undergrad and I went to school at night and I worked on the desk full time, then they started to inch me closer and closer to the, to the action, right? And that's how I eventually sort of fell in love with the business. Because initially it was a one year program and I was supposed to go off to university. And frankly, guys, I was going to be a teacher, right? I was going to, I mean, all the women in my life were educators. Women at my church were teachers.

That's what I wanted to be when I went to college was be a teacher.

I thought I was going to be an educator. And it was just being in this environment that, you know, basically changed my, my worldview. And you know, I had obviously great colleagues that helped mentor me up. And anyway, here we are.

You're like, look like, you know, to whom much is given, much is expected. I've had all these people who have looked out for me and it's true, it's 100% true. It's also a reflection of perspective, right? You could, you know, you lost your mom when she was 22 years old, you lost your dad at 39, you. It was not an easy road, right? By any means. And so you could easily not have a feeling of, I've been given so much, right? You could imagine a very different perspective. So I'm extremely curious on this. Like, is this a choice to be grateful and to see the positives because I'm throwing them back to your nature, nurture thing, or is it. No, you've always been this way. It always feels this way because, you know, people with much, much, much easier lives than you on paper, right, Might not have the gratitude that you have. And it's so unique. So like, tell me about that.

You know, it's, it's a, it's a heavy question. It's a great, it's, you know, it's interesting because as a, as a young guy, I remember, like, I used to hate Mother's Day, right? I would. I would feel. I felt cheated, for sure. And when we lost our grandmother, I mean, forget about it. I mean, it was. Was a real dark one for us. And there were moments of, you know, where you can argue. I was a bit bitter, I guess. Sure. I have this. This saying, you know. You know, the world has plenty for the optimists and the pessimists. And I wish I could pinpoint, like, when that shift happened for me in terms of being just. I'd say my natural posture is. Is one of. Of just being optimistic. And I do think that there's an element of making my grandmother, making my. My parents proud. Like. Like, sort of wear. Wearing that a bit. You know, one of the things. One of the decisions I made early on, guys, when, you know, particularly, you know, when I came of age, was around drinking. Like, you know, my dad struggled with it. And I believe that, you know, these. Sometimes these things could be, like, curses that go from generation to generation to generation. I made a decision very early on as a young guy that it stops here. Right. Like, I made that. That call. And. But to the crux of the question, partner, I think it was. I mean, I give my grandmother most of the credit for, like, the wiring of that because she sacrificed so much for us that, you know, in a spirit of just, like, again, making her proud of who we became. That was probably the biggest variable, you know, shaping. Shaping my view, surely, during the late teenage years and beyond.

It is truly. It's awesome, and it's an amazing thing that she deserves some credit for, for sure, because I do think it's a unique aspect of. It's a genuine feeling. You can feel it. You can feel it on this, you know, conversation. Right? And I think that it is. It's awesome and remarkable.

She wasn't tough at all. She wasn't a tough lady, was she? I'm just picturing this strong black woman in Chicago that is not someone you would want to mess with. Is that accurate?

Probably five foot two maybe. Being generous and tough as nails.

Yeah.

Like one of my stories. Because we never tell. We never tell the lowlights, right? We only tell the highlights. You know, the low light for me is I think I was 14 years old. I'm at the mall with a bunch of my friends at the time. And what are we doing at the mall? We don't have any money. Like, you know, what do you do? Oh, you. Oh, we're gonna. We're gonna steal a couple things, right? You're gonna. We're gonna steal a fake Jewelry, by the way, this is all fake jewelry out of JCPenney's, I think. And of course, we're sloppy. We get caught. Like, I'm a church boy. Like, I, I know right from wrong. And I remember when we were being detained, my grandma, and they told me my grandmother was here to pick me up. I'm like, guys, like, I'm like, I want to stay here, like, and, and I remember my, my uncle's driving and I'm in the back of the car and she had something in this black bag. I don't know what it was, but it felt like a, I'll just call me generous to say it's a stick and not a pipe. But it was heavy and she's hit me. Oh, yeah, this is what you can't do today. So anyway, man, she was a force of nature. So, so stereotypical, I guess, on some level. But she was the matriarch in every sense of the word. Tough as hell.

I think that the story of like, like, man, I gotta stay here, you know, I don't want to go back and see her. That is, I like, that resonates with me so much. It's like thinking about, like, my parents, my grandparents are just like, oh my God, I would much rather deal with anyone than them if I did something wrong, you know, Like, I still to this day feel like that, you know, the reason I asked you the gratitude question, partly Mandel, was I feel like, like I'm a very grateful person.

Right? Truly.

But I haven't had the life challenges that you've had. Like, you know, like I, I, they, they, whatever has gone on, I have been genuinely blessed. Like, I'm, I talk to my parents, you know, every day, you know, like, I, I, and so I, I just think it's easier, honestly for me to have it. But I admire it so much because I think it is so much of the reason for anything good in my life is sort of this perspective of like, man, God damn, are we lucky to have this.

You know, look, I, I, I appreciate that frame because I, I think on one hand, as I said earlier, I mean, without question, you know, I, I feel bad. Not just for me, I feel bad for my kids, right? My kids will, you know, because my wife lost her dad and then I lost my parents. So three out of the four grandparents, you know, they won't have. And we know how important grandparents are, right? So that's, that's one thing, that's a, that's something I don't know. I've never Heard my mom's voice. Well, I don't remember hearing my mom's voice. Yeah. I've never seen her move. Right. All the pictures I have are stock photos and, you know, shout out to AI because of. A colleague of mine applied AI to a stock photo of my mom and brought me to tears. Yeah, Right. But. But I don't have that. That lived experience. And so. So to your point, partner, there. There are plenty of reasons to be bitter and to feel cheated, but I. The way I think about it, I turn it on its head in some respects, because of the life that I've now been able to live. Yeah, right. And the things that I've been able to see. And I remember I was recently on a trip. I woke up in Hong Kong, and I was at. I forget what hotel was at the Rosewood in Hong Kong. And you wake up and you see that you're on the harbor and you're looking out, and I've been there.

Yeah.

You think back and you say, wow, I'm this kid from the west side of Chicago, and here I am now. Right. Like, wow.

Yeah.

Like, so grateful.

I laugh. I. I have the same thought every now and then. Like, how'd I get here? What is this about? So at age 50 now, who encourages you? Where do you find encouragement? Professionally, personally? Like.

Like, you know, saying, I'm still getting used to this 50 thing. And you just.

I'm shocked. I. I thought Mandel was younger than me, to be honest with you. I'm. I'm the old guy. I'm the glue guy.

I truly like that. I thought the same thing. Mandel, like, I hope everyone watches this on video. But, like. But also, Brother Badier is a. He's a friend who believes directness is kindness. He really. He's not gonna let you something out of being 50. He's hitting you with it, right?

Yeah, I'm just still getting used to it. It's. It happens.

Undefeated Father Time and gravity. Undefeated.

All right.

If you can. If you can beat them, let me know.

I.

You know, I. I got. I gotta.

I gotta.

A business. I want to start with you.

Yeah. You know, look, I've got, like, a tapestry, you know, because I think it's important to have, like, a board of advisors or what have you that, you know, folks that you trust, you respect, you know, most importantly, you know, their lived experience. Right. So these are credible people who've been in the arena, you know, if you will, and that it's comprised of, you know, of course, the Ken Chenault to The world. Because these guys know a lot about a lot, and they've seen a lot. But, you know, when I pick the phone call Robbie, it's because, okay, here's somebody who's a peer. I appreciate that he's a number of years younger, but real life experiences that parallel mine. And having the good fortune of being able to pick up the phone and call and say, hey, how should I be thinking about this? And being in the seat like I'm in, that gives you a little bit of access. And then, of course, there are people who really know you well. Right. You know, most importantly, and I love how you guys are always talking about your partners and your spouses and the role that they play. And so, of course, my better two thirds, Allison, plays that part for me. But my brothers are also like, they know me like they. Better than some days maybe that I even know myself. And so I've got this. It's not all on one person to carry the weight of helping me think through things depending on the context of the problem set. And I'm pretty prescriptive around who I pick up the phone and call and who I trust with that vulnerability that we talked about before. And I'm pretty fortunate that I've got a pretty good crew sitting around that proverbial table.

Hey, Shane, are you. I feel like you are extremely intentional, too, on, like, who you surround yourself with.

I think now that I'm almost 47, I appreciate just the. How quickly the sands of time passed. And so when you wake up, you only have so many hours, you got to make them count. I know it sounds super cliche, and so just taking meetings that don't, like you said, it's like talking to an LLM.

Like, I'm not.

If I don't get anything out of the meeting, just in terms. Not in terms of, like, something that benefits me outside of just energy. And I learned something that's the exciting part of life. So just as you get older, it's just one of those things where you just realize, man, time's running out. I'm gonna make every hour, every meeting, every interaction, every book I read, every podcast every day, they have to say, like, you know, it's not worth exploring things to learn, and you're still figuring out what you don't like. That's still very, very important. But you spend a lot more time just reflecting. Okay, is this the right thing for right now?

One of the things that you guys do? Again, this is going to sound like a shameless plug, but another source Right. For perspective and context is the pod. Right. And the guest that you have on Harbaugh, or I mentioned, Cheryl, you know, earlier, very successful people who are, you know, being vulnerable and sharing their story. And again, I. I keep saying the point, but, I mean, that's the gift of this thing to the world. And so even though it's not like a mentor or some of the people that I mentioned before, but it's a source of a perspective, which, you know, so keep doing this, guys, please.

We appreciate it. You know, we love our guests. We love the variety they come in, in every. Every walk of life. And it's our hope that all of our loyal listeners and you included, and all of our friends and family realize that, like, in this Instagram crazy world where everything seems curated, everything seems destined, you're either destined for greatness or you're destined for the opposite of that.

It's all.

It's all false.

Look, we all.

We all. We all struggle. We all struggle with vulnerability. We all struggle with do I belong? We all struggle with am I good enough? We all struggle with am I a good parent? Am I going to mess up my kids? Like, like, these are, like, the most human things. And so, like, if. If anything, like, we sang each other's praises, but, like, we are all, like, very flawed people just trying to figure it out. And so to be able to create a community where we can come together and say, yeah, you know, I. I talk to my kids about sports when I shouldn't. I know I should. You know, that's okay. It's part. That's part of the human experience. And so that's been fun for us, just meeting new friends and, you know, love. You know, immediately after meeting you, Mendo, we said we have to do a show together because we're all. We're all aliens out there. We're all aliens, you know, just. Just trying to do the best we can. And the more we feel we have people out there like us, you know, the better we can sleep at night.

Well, it's so interesting, too. I. Oh, my God. I totally agree with you guys. I also think Mandel, like, to me, I feel like I'm very intentional with how I spend my time. Right. Very intentional. Same thing with you. Like, I want to be super thoughtful. Like, I want to invest in very close friendships. I feel like the Bob Myers quote of, like, you should aspire to live a life where the people that know you the best love you the most. Like, I think that is an amazing aim, and I, like, love it. Love it, love it, love it. And I think one of the things, though, you have to do is, like, make room for serendipity by, like, doing it on purpose. And so, like, when we met you, right, it was someone I really love and respect saying, like, hey, you would really like this person. You should go and, you know, you and Shane should meet him. And then it's like, cool, like, let's go do that, you know, and then believing, like, oh, let's see. Let's see what happens. And then all of a sudden, like, a new friendship comes and this conversation, like, damn, man. Like, you know, if you don't have some forum like this, it's actually hard, which is like, what is the situation? Like, hey, do you want to get on a zoom with, you know, me and Shane and just, like, talk and the obvious questions, like, about what?

It's like, let's just get vulnerable with each other, right?

And so.

Thank you. No, thank you.

Yeah, and so, so much. Like, we had, like, a little conversation amongst Alex, Shane and me the other day or a few months ago, just like, hey, like, are we having fun? Do we want to do this? And all of us were sort of like, yeah, like, we, like, look forward to the time on the calendar. We look forward to the time with the guests. And, like, we learn. And I don't know, I feel happy that other people will listen to this and they'll realize that, like, even though on paper it sort of looks like it was all figured out for, you know, from the beginning. And I think, like, hearing that, you're like, when you get some of these calls, you're like, no, I don't want to do that. That's a good thing. It's a good thing for people to realize. And then it's also good for them to realize that, like, you are, you know, I'm not gonna say an age, but you are a man who's been very successful in your career and you're still focused on learning new things. Totally like that to me, is the thing I hope my kids get is I just want them to know that it never stops. You're never, like, complete where you don't have to learn anymore and you still want to have this productive discomfort, like brother Badier says. You know, I think that I really hope that that is something that they realize the importance of.

I love, I love that this, you know, productive discomfort. I, I, I, I'm, I'm absolutely stealing that partner. If you see me on a, some sort of pod or some sort of, some Sort of conference saying that, you.

Know.

Because it's so. It's so. It's so spot on. I mean, there's no finish line. Right? You know, that's the. You know, the thing that I think about a lot. I mean, we're. We're works in progress, and you could always get better. There's always room for improvement and, you know, continuous learning, all the stuff that we know. But so well said, Robbie Mandel.

One of the things I tell Shane is the first time I use something he says, I quote him, you know, my friend, my brother, Shane Battier, he said this. The second time I use it, maybe. Maybe. Maybe it's someone I. Someone a close friend of mine says. And then the third time, I'm like, you know, I was just thinking the.

Other day.

It came to me, that's.

Why you got to keep writing Mandela. You got to keep creating. You know.

You keep going with that. You'd be like, you know what? The thing that I've used to like to. To shape my life is this, you know, full ownership of the thing it's been with you the entire time.

You know, that's.

That's my favorite. Well, you know, look, I. I hope I get to a point like Coach K. The. The most important Coach K interaction ever had was when I was going to be a junior. We just lost the national championship to UConn. Duke had, you know, guys leave the program for the first time for the draft, and. And Elton Brand, William Avery, Trajan Langdon. So, like, it was. It was like the COVID was bare. Like, it was Chris Carroll and a. Jameson myself. And Coach K called me up in Chicago when I was working for a PR firm, and he. He hung up on me three straight days until I said, yes, I believe that I will be a great. A great player one day. I believe I'll be the national player of the year. And the best part of that story is I've told that story ad nauseam. And then it was like. Like five years ago, I was telling that story to Coach, like, it changed my life. And he goes, I said that. I did that. And so, true story. The most important interaction of my entire life that changed my trajectory. The man who said it forgot about it. And so that's their sign of just unbelievable genius. And so I hope you get to that point where, you know, I. Robbie says something that attributes to me that I forget I said.

I said that.

So that's. That's the goal.

Well, yeah, I remember that episode. Right? That episode was so good. And. And I think it was. I think it was like the. In the Olympics or something like that. And how he was. How he had to coach a player differently just because the wiring dynamic, if I remember that correctly. And just like, you want to talk about another Chicago guy, by the way, another Chicago guy who's just, what a gift to the earth. What a gift.

That was. That. That was truly, like, life highlight to me of that day we got to spend with him and, like, just seeing how he was around you. Shane was also, like, one of the coolest things. Seeing how you were around him was, like, expected but bettered. But seeing him around you, too, like, I feel like we got. I got one of the coolest versions of this person that I've, like, admired my whole life. Right. Because of you. Like, I got to see him with you, and it was so. That was like. That was one of the coolest.

I would not be here without my.

My.

My favorite coach of all time, Coach K, is he's the best Mandel.

That's a pretty good segue, actually, into, like, you know, you know, you know, the question we're going to ask you. Who are the glue people in your life?

Yeah.

And we would love to give you the floor to talk about them.

Yeah. No, thank you guys. Again, it's an honor to even be able to answer this question. Because I'm such a fan of the pod, I have to start with my wife because I oftentimes describe Allison as the chairman and CEO of the Crawley household. As we know, I just can't do what I do and play as free as I play without, you know, her. So. Al, thank you. And then my brothers, my two brothers, Greg and Jackie, you know, in life, we've gone in very different directions. You know, one's in Canada now. My older brother Greg, my younger brother's in Phoenix. And as we know, life can have, you know, headwinds, tailwinds a whole bit. But the thing that's been constant for us is just, you know, our beginning. Right. You know, the thing that will always bind us together is obviously blood, but just our shared history. And when I'm with those guys, like, I am, like, my most authentic self. And as a classic middle kid, Right. The thing I enjoy most is embarrassing my older brother, Right. Like, doing things in public because he embarrasses easily doing things in public, that just makes him uncomfortable. And the thing I'll tell you guys, the last thing I'll say is my older brother, for all of my, quote, success for as long as I could remember. And whether it was getting good grades and being recognized in an academic context or professionally, what have you. He has been my number one cheerleader. My wife says he's, like, a natural hype man. He is so genuinely happy for me and my successes. And in the way he roots for me. And knowing, you know, that it's coming from such a real place, like, you know. So again, to the question of Blue Guy. Like, he's. He's the guy, you know? So I love. I love them both.

That's awesome. I can totally relate to that, too, Mendel. Because even though I give my brother shit all the time of, like, man, he, like, set this impossible standard. Like, no one roots for me more than my brother, you know? Like, nobody. Nobody, ever. And so just as good as it gets.