Play Free - [Glue Guys, EP.8]

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Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your hosts, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us. When I was down in the military center doing my rehab, they call this thing called group suck. Doing hard stuff is easier as a team. That's the philosophy. And a little bit of it's like embraced. When you're with your guys next to you, you can embrace it. When you're by yourself, things can be daunting and overwhelming. And I felt like I was on my own when I was in Virginia. And then when I went down there, there was this connection and attacking things together where you can see the guy next to you charging and you're like, oh, shit. So I thought maybe there was something there off the suck. Embrace the suck.

There's something about sacrifice being a very short term concept because the long term, like that's where all the good stuff comes from. When you've sacrificed, you get a bunch of long term stuff. And so it's this interesting thing where it's presented as this very negative. You have to give something up, but what you're actually doing Is investing to get something for the future. It's actually quite different. It's like you're buying something now, so you lose the money now, but you get all of it in five years or 10 years or two years. Sacrifice is an investment. It's not actually like a loss.

I think teaching kids, that's hard too.

Yeah, it's like the marshmallow test.

Shane, I wanted to ask you this. I've told Rodri about this, but this is absolutely prevalent in the NFL level are negative coaches, coaches that before games are like, we can't do this, we can't turn the ball over. We no penalties, no sacks, all these like negative things. I kid you not, 95% of my quarterback coaches, when I threw a ball low, would be like, gotta get it up. When I threw it behind a guy, they'd be like, you gotta get it out in front. No shit. I know that before you do. This is what I do for a living. Very few, Andy Reid being one of em would be like, well, maybe you took up too big a stride here. You see how you were like maybe too tall trying to help me solve the problem. But the vast majority of I think NFL coaches and people think they're the best of the best. If I threw a ball too far in front, they'd be like, oh, you got to put it on them. I'm like, thanks, you're really helping me here. You're really helping me reach my potential. They were all these negative coaches. I got to the NFL and was like, can't turn the ball over. You can't take a sack here. You can't do this. That's all I'm thinking about is what I can't do.

I had an embarrassment of hall of Fame coaches. So I'm probably the wrong guy to ask. Every coach I played for is in the hall of Fame. Compared to my best friend Mike Dunleavy, who played for one hall of Fame coach, Coach K, that was it. And then his pro coaches were a string of guys that were just Jags. Just guys.

Not hall of Famers.

Not hall of Famers.

Put it nicely.

Any industry. I think people always want to show their value. So if you don't say anything, it's like, well, I'm not doing my job. You're paying me to tell you, get the ball up, throw the ball behind. This is human nature.

And in fact, half the time they're saying it loud enough that everybody hears thanks. Of everybody. Get it down.

Coaches now are much more collaborators than actual coaches. We grew up in the era where it was almost a paternal figure, it wasn't a collaboration. Ultimately it was, but it was very one sided. The great coaches I played for made it feel like a collaboration, but it was still like their ideas. The best coaches that I played for, obviously Coach K. Coach K made us feel that we couldn't fail because of the work, because of everything we put into it. The attention to detail, the level of concentration that we were demanded every single day. When you got to the games, these are an extension of our practices. They're an extension of who we are and we shouldn't do anything different. We don't have to be anyone different. Whether it was exhibition game or national championship game, we just had to be the best version of ourselves. Coaches that I wouldn't put in that category. I did think Belmore into the negative feedback loop. The positive feedback wasn't authentic. I never felt that it was genuine. You wanted me to do well. You wanted the team to be a reflection of you. Best coaches I played for always. It was a reflection of us. It was our journey.

I wonder if there's something there with a leader being a psychologist, because I couldn't agree with you more. The best coaches I played for, half of it was when I walked on the field. I played free. I was very confident that we were going to win and I was going to play well within the system. And it was the exact opposite. And it wasn't from the results that we had had or something. It just was the way the culture was and the way they built us up and maybe built me up and then vice versa. The horrible coach. Again, it was this negative cycle. I walked onto the field, apprehensive, tiptoeing around, which is a disaster.

Every guy's different. The psychologist part of every great coach, they know what every guy needs because there were teammates that needed a kick in the ass every single day. There were some that were mo shots and you had to tell them like, dude, focus, focus, focus, focus. Every single day. When they got that from the coach, they were awesome. There were some players like yourself, like.

I got it, I got it.

Just point me in the direction and I got it. I think that's part of leadership and great coaches. You just have to know your people and you have to know what each person needs and that's exhausting. That's so tiring. To think about your people constantly and give them what they need on an individualized basis to get the best out.

Of them for sure. It's like the spectrum of tough love and You've got the tough part and you've got the love part. And I think good leaders are both. Some guys need built up, so they need a lot of love. Guys maybe that are hard on themselves or something, you got to like constantly be loving them up and building them up. Certainly, you know, at the knuckleheads that are overly confident, you're doing the other thing on.

When I think about it, the best coaches I played for, Coach K and Eric Spoelstra, Rick Edelman, Jeff Van Gundy, very demanding. Expectations are very high. I think every coach has expectations, concentration and effort and humility and all that stuff. But the great coaches I played for said, I expect a lot out of you because I know you can do it. I'm saying this because I believe you can do it. We all want someone to believe in us and say, yeah, okay. Yeah, I can do this, even though it's hard.

Great coaches, they gave us an edge too. From a team psychology perspective. Forget the individuals as a group. They always built the edge. At Duke when you guys were favorite. Sometimes I feel like the way you talk about him, he gave you guys an edge, though. The way he would challenge you in.

A very different way than Urban. The story was that he always instilled in you us against the world mentality. Coach K did in a different way. Coach K looked at ego and expectation as a positive. There's a great story when Coach K first got to the Olympic team 2010, you got Kobe in there and LeBron and D&KD, all these guys. Most coaches would say, look, you need to check your ego at the door because this is about USA Basketball and we're not going to win unless we are unified. And Coach K walked in and said the exact opposite. He's like, we have the best players in the world. Why would I want you to check your ego? Why would I want Kobe Bryant to check his ego at the door when he's Kobe friggin Bryant? LeBron, I want you to be you. Now. The difference is we need to do this in the framework of our team and have a collective ego too, which has to be larger than the individual ego. Our times at Duke, he laughed, whatever. There was like a story about us. The people were hating on us, whatever. He's like, guys, the facts, they're talking about you like this. Feel good about that. You got to worry about when no one's talking about you. Because the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love and hate is apathy. We're playing some podunk school. No one ever asked what happened to that guy who went to the school. Because no one cares. The second no one cares about Duke basketball, now we have to worry. But the fact we sell at every gym we walk into every year, when the schedule comes out, we are the first team people look up. When do we play Duke? When do we play Duke? And that was North Carolina. A and T. That was North Carolina. When do we play Duke? When and where? And so the biggest game of the year for every team that we ever played against was Duke. This is the game of the year. We get 30 games of the year every single night. And you know that people are going to get their rest, they're going to get their extra shots up. This is their chance to make a mark. And so you have to be prepared to take the competition's best shot every single night. But what Coach K said, it was awesome. He's like, our goal is not to win the game. Our goal is to make the other team rationalize that it's okay to lose to Duke because no one is ever going to lose their job. No one's ever going to write an op Ed. A skating op Ed. You lost to Duke. I can't believe you lost. It's okay. It's acceptable to lose to Duke, but you have to be the Duke that shows up. So if you come to the game and you're confident and you got. Coach K is big on body language. That look in your eye, you're standing tall, you're connected, you're playing your tails off, and all of a sudden you jump on someone and you're up by 20 points. There's no one who's going to say, like, man, we got these guys. We could beat them. No, they're going to say, it's Duke and it's okay that we lost this game. Who do we play next? And so our goal was get people to rationalize before we would rationalize. We were never allowed to rationalize. That was the game within the game that Coach K played with us. It was the mental edge. We were trying to crush people's spirit and their minds. Not necessarily physically won a lot of games that way.

He's still challenging you guys, though, there. It's almost like, not okay just to win. There's a standard here. Can you guys play up to this? And can we?

It was always about standards as opposed.

To, like, being the favorite and the negative aspect of it.

One thing I always like, too, about what I read about Coach K and Shane, you tell me if this is True. But this whole concept of if you win one, you're not defending it, you're just trying to go win another one. And I like that. That was already won. We're not defending that one. And then the other thing I like was he said one time, when you win, if you start to feel relief rather than joy, that is not where you want to be. Because all of a sudden the only positive thing you could ever feel is relief. That's not good enough for all the work you have to put in. It's gotta be joy that you get to feel when you win, rather than just like, oh, okay, I got through that 100%.

We had amazing gratitude for the opportunity to compete. And so we never took any practice, any exhibition game, any team against those last place in the acc. It meant something because Duke was playing. Coach K has got a really, really difficult last name.

Very long.

K, R, Z, Y, Z, E, W, S, K, I. That's a mouthful. But if you ever saw Coach K's signature on a ball or on a pitcher, it is meticulous. You can make out every single letter. And it takes him a long time. Think about how many autographs Coach K signs in a year. And it's legible and it's perfect every single time. And he told us, you know why.

I do this, guys?

Because it's my name and it means something. I could scribble my name and put something down that no one else could read, but this means something to me. Every time you put the Duke uniform on and you see Duke, whether it's practice or whether it's a polo shirt after practice or the game jersey, Duke means something. Why wouldn't you give your best shot? You're representing yourself, representing Duke. This means something. And that's 24 7. When you say like that, like, yeah, I'm going to give it my all every single time, whether it's practice or post practice or in school or in a game, he really gave us ownership of our program, of our name. That's an amazing lesson to teach people to take ownership in what they're part of. Not just one part, every part.

You can't pick and choose. You can't raise the standard in certain areas of your life. You can't expect to. You either hold yourself all the time to some level, or you don't. Can't be sloppy over here and then be like, well, I'm going to be organized and diligent over here. It just doesn't work that way. I have a similar experience when I signed My name, Alex Smith. Nine letters. Pretty tough.

It's your name. It means something.

It's so lame.

It also just happens to be a lot of other people's names.

When you hear stories like this, is there anything that's similar at kkr? This is Henry Kravitz coming in and using these metaphors. Every coach is borrowed from somebody else and change names in the faces. And so when you hear these stories of the locker room and they're fun stories for Alex and I to live, we grew up with that. They're diamond dust and they're awesome. You think of George Roberts, and when he's bringing in the office and giving you these analogies, like we felt.

First emotion you feel when I hear these stories is envy. The things you guys earned and got to do and got to be a part of. They're like many kids dream. Certainly my dream, that's the first emotion is just like, man, that is so cool that you guys got to go through that. Even the hardship that you mentioned, and maybe especially the hardship, the stories from urban, stories from Coach K, and I would say particularly the Coach K ones. My dad went to duke for his PhD, so I love Duke ever since I was a kid. The idea that you played for him, you heard all this and were there, and this is all stuff I would read about. So that's the first emotion. I've been very, very, very lucky because the places I've worked have had amazing people. The leadership I feel like in a business context that I've observed is our leaders oftentimes are like better players than we are. George, he did it. Henry, he did it. Mike Moritz, Doug Leone, Rudolph Bozeth, these guys, they've done it. I think that's a different feeling because a lot of times what they're doing is telling you stories from their days, and it's less about trying to inspire you with, here's what you can go do, but more, just look at guys. There's nothing in your way. Let me just tell you about this thing that we did. The most powerful stories that Henry and George would tell us were just them leaving Bear Stearns when they were 32 and starting KKR with nothing being like, look, guys, this whole thing, you see, it was built from two cousins that just decided to be fearless. And their whole thing was, we need to maintain the entrepreneurial spirit. I think what most founders and most leaders are terrified of is their organization losing the spirit that made it who they were. The stories I remember, they're so funny because they're so different than yours. But like, one of the stories Henry would always tell was, we decided we wanted to buy this company and we didn't have the money. He's like, so I dictated a letter to my assistant. I told her to put it in the mail and send it to the CEO. We're going to buy this company. Think about how crazy this is. Henry Krav is walking around talking to his assistant. He's typing furiously. And then they, like, put a paper letter in the mail to the CEO who receives it. Being like, kkr wants to buy your company for X billion dollars. The big thing that you kind of notice is just like, brass balls. He doesn't know where the money's coming from. He doesn't know if they can do it. Whatever, we'll figure it out. His point is always, you have every advantage here. We've already given you the funds. You have this name. We were nobodies and we were out doing stuff. Let's go. But I think the biggest difference is generally our leaders are better players than we were. And that is really different, I think, than what you guys always deal with in terms of your great coaches. But the biggest thing they're trying to pass along a lot of times is just go play. Just be fearless. It reminds me a little bit of Harbaugh with you, Alex. Play as fast as you can, play as hard as you can, and don't worry. That is like so much of what all the great leaders I've seen is. They just try to be like, just go play. Don't think about it so much.

Every great coach I played for, like when I took the field and Jim Harbaugh was one of them, we took the field like that. We had something to prove and we played free. We didn't ever step on the field thinking about making a mistake. And part of it also because mistakes, you didn't get crushed for mistakes. Jim was one of the first ones. I didn't get absolutely hammered if I threw a ball low. I didn't have a coach screaming to get the ball up. It was a culture. Again, his last two words before he took the field were literally, don't worry. Play frigging as hard as you can, play with your hair on fire and we'll figure it out. And this also, again, in practice, you'd have do over coaches. This is for everybody out there. And I hated do over coaches. There's an expectation sometimes this crazy expectation through the week that practice should be perfect. No ball should touch the ground from a quarterback's perspective, QBs, receivers, running backs should be perfect. Say you're even going against air. If you walk on the field saying, I have to be perfect today, it's a little bit like, oh, fuck, even on air, oh, shit, don't drop a ball. If I miss this a little bit, all of a sudden it's the wrong mindset. Well, you'd be in practice and say it's Thursday and you're practicing third downs, you're going against a scout team. So these are the backups and practice squad guys and they're trying to give the look of the team you're playing. We got some great third down play that we've drawn up that week that should work. And we run it and the scout team doesn't really give us a great look and it doesn't fucking work. I throw it away or something. I had so many coaches like, do it again. Well, shit, now the scout team already saw it once. It's not a great rep either because it's not realistic. Because now you're like, shit, we got to be perfect again. You drop back. It's just this miserable experience. The whole practice you're like, fuck, every time we mess one up, we're going to do it again. Jim was not like that. I never forget. He's like, we'll fix it in the film room, we'll coach it up in the film room, teach it later, keep it moving. And a little bit more of it was always this what's next mentality. Like you were looking forward. And I think all these little things add to that and I go back to this, the coaches there is like a team edge that they instilled a psychology element to this. They'll even go back to like that entrepreneurial idea of what it was like when that company was smaller, keeping that, fostering that as a leader. And Urban was no different. Andy, you stepped on the field with an edge as a team and it was confident and you went out there to make plays. It's totally the opposite. Like these negative coaches I've been around. You walked on the field and it was, we can't take a sack, we can't throw an interception, we can't turn the ball over, we can't have penalties. And the whole team walks out there trying not to make a mistake. And then, you know, it ends up happening is we could barely muster 200 yards off.

Yeah, you couldn't breathe.

We didn't take any sacks though. We didn't turn the ball over, but we sucked. It was so different. And it happens at the highest level. I've had NFL coaches that. That's what was reinforced.

The place where I work now is actually a pretty good example of this team Edge, Sequoia. It is not normal for a venture firm to be good for a long time. This is not my work. This is other people's work. Segoya started in 1972, 52 years ago. Look at any other venture firm that was started 52 years ago. They aren't ones that you hear about now. It is the only one that's maintained over a long period of time. Being good, that edge, that is very real. People always ask, what is it that makes it good? It is the culture. And the culture is basically based around two things, performance and teamwork. There is absolutely a standard we do not lose, and the companies that we back need to be the best companies. Now, sometimes what will happen is we will not meet the standard. It is dealt with. When you don't meet the standard, this thing of the next thing. Alex, it's so funny. The big thing that we all, like, write down over and over and over again is we're only as good as our next investment. And it's actually an interesting thing, which is that it doesn't matter what you did yesterday. All that matters is what you do today. I don't know if you guys saw that Drewer speech that he had at Dartmouth, but he basically was like, you have to play every point like it's the most important thing, but as soon as it's done, you have to forget it. And I was like, that's really good. Culturally, that is one thing that I think is good. We have our own problems and all that stuff. But I do think it's not a coincidence that Sequoia has been good for a long time. And I'd say the biggest thing, that it's a mix of positive and negative, that the partners at Sequoia feel you don't want to be the generation that messes it up. So many generations have done it well that you're like, man, I got to leave it better than I found it. That's the positive version. And you get the room to do that and then the pressure. Don't be the generation that loses this thing. You are given something pretty good.

What's the turnover in terms of partners? I think that's a huge component of that.

We're a performance culture, which means there is real active management and it's lateral management. Because we're a partnership, there's a fair amount of turnover. Remember when you were talking about the heat before, about it's not for everyone and how that's a draw. In my interview for Sequoia, Doug Leone, who was our senior steward, who running the firm at the time, he is like, look, let me just tell you, if you don't perform, we're going to get rid of you. And I just want you to know that now we hope you perform. We think you're going to perform. It is not going to be tolerated if you don't. You got to know that. And he was actually using that as a positive to me because I heard that it's not just if I don't perform, if anyone else doesn't perform, we're always going to be a high performing team. I don't know the exact data. Our team looks really different than it did 10 years ago. It looks somewhat different than it did five years ago. It is constantly being reevaluated. I have this thing that I talk about which is you should enthusiastically rehire your team. You should only keep people you would enthusiastically rehire if you had six months and the best recruiter in the world. Would you rather take that or would you rather take the person you got? If you'd rather take the person you got, great. If you'd rather take the recruiter, either turn that person into somebody you enthusiastically rehire or get rid of them, tell them that it's time to go. I think Sequoia lives that pretty well of either you're here because we want you here or you're not.

You're like Alabama football, more Alabama football than Duke basketball, I'd say.

Of course I would aspire to be Duke basketball, given mine, but save an era, that does not seem like a bad analogy to me.

Where does development fit in in this? Obviously you'd been in the entire industry, but this is the first time you're doing Venture ever. So the expectation that you're just going to come in ripping is crazy. Looking at it from an outsider's perspective, there's gotta be some learning curve here to get up to speed and to be able to learn and grow and make some mistakes.

This is one of the more interesting things about Sequoia or Venture in general. It's an apprenticeship model. You have to study under people that are doing it. You have to study under multiple people that are doing it well and you have to learn from them. And what's very interesting in my opinion about Sequoia in this respect is it requires a lot of effort and humility on both sides. I Joined Scott. I was 38 years old. I had done a few things in my career. I didn't join at 22, but I don't know anything about how to be a venture capitalist, how to make great investments in that space. So I have to really put my ego aside and just be like, I am willing to sit and learn from people that are 10, 15 years younger than me, who are much better than me at this. And that was really hard for me. And I actually didn't do it very well at first. I got all this to contribute. Why don't you guys want to hear what I think? I had come from a place where I was one of the leaders and I was ready to espouse. And like Brother Badier likes a microphone. I don't mind having a microphone. I like having people listen to me. And it was very hard. So the first thing is, in order to be the person who's apprenticing, you have to have some humility, and you got to really put your ego aside. Like, I know this, but I don't know this at all, and I gotta start again. So that took some time. And frankly, there are some touch and go moments as to whether or not I'd get to stick around because I wasn't learning.

Were you assigned anybody?

No, it's very much go learn it from everyone. But then the thing that I'd say that people did who were teaching me, folks like Pat Grady and Reed, Carl Eschenbach, what they did that was good was they tagged some humility, too. So they would teach me the business, they would teach me the investing business. But then they would go out of their way sometime, like, hey, what do you think about this company? How do you think this CEO or founder is doing? What do you think we could be doing here? And they found ways for me to be able to help them rather than just teach me, because it would have been very hard for me to only be the student and to not be the teacher. And I think that that required some real judgment and leadership on their part. But I tell you, Alex, the development in our business, it's an apprenticeship business. You have to have people that have done it as well as you have to have youth. The example that we always give as to why you have to have youth, can you imagine what old people thought the first time they heard of Airbnb? Sequoia is the first investor in Airbnb.

Gotta have young people around.

Can you imagine what you'd think if you're like 40 plus and someone's like, What?

You're gonna stay in my house and I'm gonna charge you a room.

You're gonna rent a room.

You're not gonna rent a room. You're gonna rent an air mattress in my room. Think about the level of craziness that that was. Air bed and breakfast. And the idea was air mattresses. And if you only have old heads around people, be like, this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard in my life. But if you have some youth around, all of a sudden it's like, no, I would do that. I don't want to stay in a hotel. You actually need this combination and it's actually quite difficult to do. Maybe I'd say this, Alex, the way I would put it is we will teach you, but you need to take responsibility for your own development and you need to put in the time and you need to want to work at it. And if you want to work at it, we'll meet you there. But we're not going to put it out on a silver plate. One of the things Doug talked about a lot, we need to let you wander into the abyss. We got to let you get there. Because that's when you sort of realize like, oh, God, I don't know what I'm doing. That's what it took for me. I keep on trying to act like I know and I don't know at all. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do a good reference, I don't know how to write a good memo. I don't know how to do any of this.

Thinking about Alex's stories about the walk on safety going against the stud receiver and the one on one drills and the constant infusion of good young talent as Sequoia reminds me of something Pat Riley said. You can't have 12 milk drinkers in a locker room. You need a couple guys to drink Jack Daniels. And what he meant by that was, you always need to inject a competitive tension into your group, which is like counter everything that every manager hopes for. Because every manager wants, let's trust each other and have Kumbaya. Hey, the managers don't want to deal with that and they don't want to solve people problems. They just want people to do their jobs. And so the ideal, if you ask most managers, let's just get along. And the highest performing teams always inject that competitive edge into the scenario to keep people on their toes. They're always looking around and you're constantly having to prove yourself and Prove your worth and prove your mettle and prove your commitment to the team. And in sports we come from very, very different background. I would say a vast majority of my teammates were not like my background but we got along because we knew we were here for one reason and it was that tension between us that we had to prove to each other that yeah, okay, we're pure of heart and we're here to win and be great. That's what I hear when I hear the stories Coyote and I hear the stories of Urban Meyer Utah football. The importance of competitive tension within the group which contributes to that edge.

You are so right. I mean and I didn't even think about what you just said. It is explicit. One of the things the historical leaders of Sequoia have always talked about is we don't want a well rounded person. We want a team of spiky people who happen to turn us into a group that is complete. But we want people to be spiky. That is always the thing that people are looking for. Where are you messed up almost and where are you really good? We want to have five people with a chip on their shoulder but in just the right place. The thing that ties people together, I would say it's a coia but then I do think this is in venture writ large. But the spec of what we look for at Sequoia is two things. We look for people who are hyper competitive with a heart of gold. We want people that are good people at their core but we want them to be fucking competitive, like can't sleep, that level. And then we want them to be good at different things.

Shane, I couldn't agree with you more. Every great team has got some Jack Daniels drinkers, they got the spiky guys. You need some guys to kind of infuse that edge. However, it's such a fine line because you go too far and that equilibrium shifts and then it's not about the team. I think that balance of a leader, where do you find that and how do you manage that? It's kind of always in flux a little bit depending on how smoothly things are going. Are you winning, are you flying high or not? Because I do feel like sometimes when you hit the troughs, that's when those personalities can try to tear things apart sometimes and you got to really keep things together without a doubt. I never knew it when I was in it. You don't know that. But in hindsight, and it's funny, those are oftentimes the teammates that I remember sometimes when things are going Rough people are trying to pretend like it's not happening. You want the fucking guy that's going to say, this sucks, we suck today. This is not good enough and we need to pick our shit up. It's uncomfortable sometimes and it's often way more confrontational than what I just said. But you need it. You don't like it when it's happening. But in hindsight we would never been the team we were if we didn't have those guys.

Alex, what's the best example of something that happened that in the moment, but that you look back on and you're like, this was important, make it real. Someone saying we sucked or whatever, but you're like, oh, that's much worse than that. Give us an example of like a time that happened.

A couple things come to mind for me in football even to go back to like Jim Harbaugh. There's no hiding. You couldn't hide. And I've been on a lot of teams where we talked to this where like guys could hide. And I felt like as a quarterback I got the ball in my hand. And so to put it in perspective, let's say I played the 20th percentile of starting quarterbacks in the NFL, which is fucking terrible. I've been there. Everybody knows, everybody knows. Seven year old kids know you're not holding up your end and vice versa. Like when you play to like a winning standard, say you play to the 80th percentile winning football, good football. It's very clear that difference for a lot of places. If you're the left guard or the strong safety, the average person doesn't know the difference from watching on TV the guy that's playing to the 20th percentile or the 80th, you have guys that are just on scholarship and can hide. And the only people that can actually call out that variance oftentimes are like the coaches we're being instructed to do, run this system, run this play versus this defense. And that was the thing I always loved when Jim came in is like, no, no, everybody has to play winning football. There was no hiding. I don't care if you're the fullback, the outside linebacker. And for me as a quarterback then it actually finally made me relax a little bit. Cause I didn't feel like I had to do too much. Just do your job, that's the only expectation. And if it's to throw the flat route, throw the freaking flat route. That's winning football. And I didn't feel like it was all on me. So Jim was very good about Calling guys out. And it was in the film room. You could walk in on a Monday and in our offensive meeting and I'd never seen, well, oh shit, the right guard's getting crushed right now. Very specific details on plays that had never happened before. And so certainly even at this point it was the coach.

Being an NFL quarterback though, that's a little bit different. It's kind of hard to hide in the middle of 80,000 screaming people.

Toughest job in sports.

Robbie was CFO. I hid in the corner and shot corner three for many years. But it's hard to get by hiding and not doing your job as a quarterback.

No doubt. But I guess for me, like the going back to the team aspect, whether they be leaders or teammates, the spiky, the edge guys that call things out, typically they were defensive guys. Defensive guys typically were much spikier than offensive guys. Offensive guys had to stay level headed and think it was a little more of a chess match. Like defensive guys, it's a little bit like, go get the ball, Go hunt the Justin Smiths of the world and Patrick Willis is of the world. You can't go play defense without an edge. You're going into combat. The left tackle, by nature, it's a slow death. You do a great job. You're just retreating. Pass blocking is like literally retreating at a slow rate.

Those guys are nasty though.

Defensive linemen are totally the opposite. They're sharks and there's like blood in the water. And that is the personality difference, the yin and the yang within a locker room, especially offense to defense.

The thing you said about Harbaugh, I actually think this is a huge deal that I noticed too. If you're going to be calling people out, you have to call everybody out in order to have any credibility. You can't be the one who never talks to one of the guys. I've been in places you can see who sometimes the leader's scared of because they don't want to piss that person off. And then they say stuff to the other ones, they don't say it to that person. And then I feel like you lose all your credibility as a leader. If people can see that you don't do it to that one, you kind of have somebody that you'll say it to all the time. Shane, you and I talk about this all the time. People can just sniff bullshits from so far away, they can just tell immediately it all gets exposed. If you're the leader, you want to have an accountable culture, you got to call out everybody. You have to do it that way.

Well, I think Coach K said it really, really well. He said, I will not all treat you equally. I will treat each of you fairly. Which is all you can hope for. That's pretty good. He's like, no, I'm not going to treat you like I treat Trajan Langdon. These are all American starting two guard. I'm sorry. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as everyone is treated fairly. If you're treating people unfairly now, you have a gripe. It is a meritocracy. The winners read the history books. And if you've earned that, you've earned that.

Such a good line. I'm going to steal that line. I'll attribute it to Coach K, but I won't attribute it to you first. I'll just say, I heard it from Coach K. I think the thing that's interesting about that is I think if you take spiky people, you can't treat them equally because you can't have the same rules. But you can treat them fairly. But the other thing is you actually have to get to know them, to know what really fires them up or pisses them off. The whole point is, if everybody's different, if everybody actually has something that is unique to them, your job is to actually figure out what it is and avoid. Or only touch the live wire when you want to, but not do the same thing with each person. They have to motivate you differently. Even Dunleavy, you told me that a lot of what Coach K would do with you is like, try to compare you to previous Duke basketball greats.

Challenge you.

Yeah, yeah.

Make you feel like you're not up to their standard. Which I would just imagine, knowing you, how fucking pissed you'd be of him doing that. But it was so good. That's the right way to deal with you.

Don't you think he's trying to develop a spike a little bit?

Oh, yeah. Mike could give a shit whether he was like Christian Layton or not.

I didn't think it was a good thing to be spiky when I was in college and as an early pro, I wanted to be the good guy. I wanted to be the ultra team guy. And not only for me as an individual, but then even as a team. I've so flipped on this as a parent in my own household. Like, I want my kids edgy. You want to, like, almost foster that. My son's, like, getting ready to play a soccer game. My 13 year old. I'm like, those kids from Marin think they're going to kick your ass. They think they're better than you. I used to think that wasn't necessarily a great thing or a term, but I absolutely think not only from an individual standpoint, but from a team standpoint. Any team you're part of, you want that. You don't want them just floating day to day. You want edge, you want mission.

But also, correct me if I'm wrong, we're not talking spiky in terms of just being prickly. Spiky could be greatness in even in one area. Someone could be an amazing worker but a horrible strategist, and that's okay. They're spiky with their ethic. Spiky in this case isn't necessarily being a jack drinker, literally, it's having strengths and maybe blind spots. And this goes back to our glue guy conversation. Everyone wants to be good at everything. No one wants to admit they have deficiencies in any area because. No, no, no, but what are we talking about? I can be a strategist. No, no, but we just need you to be an operator. Just grind for us. I took that as being spiky in terms of understanding your strengths, identifying your weaknesses, and not letting that be a bad thing.

Spiky for me means what are you great at from McKinsey? What is your spike in terms of skill set? If our job is picking what company to invest in or finding a company, picking what company to invest in, winning the deal and being a good board member, what are you best in the world at? Let's lean into that. The spike there. And then what I'd say, Alex, for the language that I put on for what you're saying is edgy. I think that there is value in having an edge and having that amongst you. But for spiky for us, it means a little bit more of what you're saying. Shane And I think the interesting thing is when it works, it's sort of like, yeah, we need you to do this. We need you to play this role. We need you to play this role even when you compliment somebody. And I fall into this. If you compliment somebody on something they're good at, most of the people, if they're really competitive, they hear the thing that you're saying they're bad at. So when people sometimes say to me like, oh, you're really good with people, I'm like, no, motherfucker, I'm good at math. What are you talking about? And they're like, I didn't even say anything. I just said, you're good at people. And I'm like, no, I hear you saying I'm bad at math. I'm good at math. That to me is the combination of spiky and having an edge. I have something I'm good at. And then I also feel confrontational sometimes on somebody compliments me. It's like if somebody says to you you're a great defender, you're like, hey man, I shot fucking 43% three point land. What do you mean I'm a great defender? That to me is the hallmark of people that are have a spike but also have an edge. You give them a compliment and then they're a little mad at you.

No doubt. Absolutely. You want well rounded skill sets from a team. Different specialties I should say. However, even within that the great defender or the great shooter or the great seed, investor or growth, I still think you're fostering and want the edge as well. It's not just the skillset, it's the personality trait, the competitiveness you need that you don't want the guy or a culture where again you're just kind of adrift.

When I was growing up, a chip on your shoulder was just like a universally negative thing to say about somebody. Basically it's like a way of saying that someone was a dick you don't want to be around. And it's crazy as I've grown up that it's turned into like this potentially huge positive. The founders we back, we're always trying to find what is the thing that motivates them. And I think the reason is I think a chip on your shoulder is actually like enduring motivation. It's something that you are going to feel, it's going to keep you going no matter what. And that's why I think it has the potential to be positive.

And it's funny, retirement from football, I just turned 40. That's been this great, I think realization for me is I don't have a chip right now. I had a freaking chip. I developed and fostered this thing. No assholes, I'm not a game manager. I can freaking do this.

How do you feel, son? Tell us how you feel.

You have it, then you step away from the game and my decision. And so lucky and certainly like being a dad and a husband, that's what's most important to me. I'm in search of and trying to find and I can't believe like I never would have said that 20 years ago I wouldn't have thought that way. I think it's good to have a Freaking chip. A healthy level.

Have you found one in post basketball retirement chain?

No, I identify with that.

Except when I kicked his ass on a golf course.

That's like a minor chip. I'm still waiting for that day.

I'm waiting for that day too.

For the note for both podcasts hosts. I have a winning record against lifetime in golf.

That's right.

That's true. I'm coming for you, Shane.

As it stands now, that's okay. So you have a chip. I'm a fat cat. I'm just happy to rest of my laurels here.

But more for the chip though. I do think when you have one you love going to work chasing it. That connotation is shifted. You said it, Ravi. It was like so much for me. The term chip on your shoulder. I think it's a positive. I think it's positive when individuals have it obviously to a healthy degree and teams you need it. I think even as leaders there is a level of obsession there that has to go prove something, prove people wrong. Whatever the motivation is, I think to go achieve a great thing, a difficult thing, there has to be a level of it.

Robbie, I mean you're in the same boat Instacart ipos.

Yeah.

Get past your blackout dates. You're liquid now.

Lockups over.

Let the record show I am a board member and a long term believer.

That's no different than when Alex signed his big extension and when I signed my extension, the great Jerry west may rest in peace.

That was it.

This is something we thought about and dreamed about and hoped about and prayed. Just get me to this day. Just get me to this day and then everything's going to be okay. We've all had that chip defining moment. Be satisfied and revving up that engine for the next thing, it's different. It cannot be the same as it was before. So redefining your chip, once you've had a little bit of success and reached your dreams, it's really hard.

I mentioned earlier that I'm envious of the experiences you earned as professional athletes. I'm not envious of needing to redefine in your 40s. That is way harder than someone who did not have the career you guys had. For me, one thing that creates a chip is I play in a difficult game now every day you have to come and do it. That is definitely different. I think Shane, though, to your point, we sometimes think we're going to get fulfillment or happiness out of something and then it happens and it's not exactly what you thought it was. Going to be. I put instacart success on, like, the highest Bettis. Oh, my God. We just gotta get public. We gotta be great company. Literally, the next morning, I remember you texting me. It's like, hey, man, how's everything going? Does your wife still love you? Do your kids still love you? Is there anything different? No, everything's the same. And what's so crazy is the thing that I actually remember about that is the hugs I had with the people that helped build it and the hugs I had with the team that's there. That was actually the moment that is enduring, much more so than anything else, the fact that we did it. I didn't get to have the highs you guys have had, but it is an easier redefining for me to find the chip than it is for you guys. There's, like, gladiator shit for sports. People screaming in the middle of the arena. You gotta, like, find that somewhere else. I never had that. My games. I still get to have some games even as I get up there in age.

For the record, there's no one who's listening to this will ever give us empathy for this.

No. Hell, no.

But there will come a point in every person who ever listens to this podcast when you will be the ex of something. Your kids go to a school, you're the ex dad or you're the ex chairman. You will find a time when something that meant a lot to you is no longer your day job.

It's why transitions are so hard in life. We all have transitions, so certainly ours are very unique. Shane, like, stepping away. Everybody has transitions. I don't think there's anything wrong with going and finding it. I'm searching for it and finding it and developing it and fostering it and being around people that are going to help. They're not easy. It takes time, and it's different for everybody, but.

But you've got to admit it first.

Yes. I think going back, the feeling was so different for me for a little while and tried to put my finger on it and, like, what's different? The chip's gone.

What's the role of a coach in defining that for you? Having a hardball, having an Urban Meyer, defining, Alex, get your head out of your butt and don't throw the ball low anymore. You'd love for someone to tell you, hey, don't throw it behind the receiver, now, wouldn't you?

I think every great story we've talked about, certainly from Henry Kravitz, trying to foster again that entrepreneurial spirit of a company that has grown into a corporate thing. You're trying to keep that urban, telling us constantly no one believes in you guys. They all think we suck. Again, there's a psychology element, I think, to every great leader and coach and it's not only on a one on one basis because everybody's different. The tough love thing. Ravi, who needs to be built up, who needs to be checked a little bit, but as a team in general, you want to build that culture. I think, again, it's infectious. When you're in those environments, the people next to you have it. When your leader's talking to you like that, you do build and foster that. And I absolutely think every great coach and leader does that as part of what they do outside of the strategy, outside of the X's and O's or the go to market. It is also the culture of the room, of the building is that is fostering that edge.

I think you definitely need it. You need somebody you respect giving you an opinion. Sometimes, yo, you're not doing it. This is not it. You can do better than this. And I actually think about it for you guys, what are the role that friends can play in doing that? I can imagine motivating you guys or pissing you off by being like, ah, you know, you're going to go meet with these people. They just think you're former athletes. They think you're dumb. They don't think you have anything to add. You should go and prove it to them. You can imagine anything. You have to figure out what is the role that different people play in getting you motivated for different things. Sometimes being a good friend is being tough on somebody. What are the occasions where you are tough on somebody? You got to really work and to find those things.

It's hard. People don't like feedback. That's a sacred cow that people do not want to be touched as much as people want to say, be truthful, be honest with me. Tell me what you think. There have been a lot of situations in my life where I've tried to been fruitful and direct with people. And maybe because my delivery, my wife says it's for delivery.

Shane, were they your golf teammates that weren't holding up their end? And you're like, you guys need to pick your up. Your putting sucks.

Robbie makes a joke. I've been known to write a strongly worded letter to my friends and tell them that the standards of our friendship are not being met right now.

It's such a Duke thing to do.

People are out there. People have gotten a handwritten letter, angry letter, outlining the facts. Very unemotional, very rational.

This ain't gonna fly.

I've never received one of these letters. I'm very happy to report they're rare.

I believe in being truthful, being honest, being direct. It's worked out sometimes, but most times it's not been great. I laugh when we talk about the role of friends and how to be direct and honest. It's really hard because people don't often want the direct truth from somebody else.

I have a friend who says sometimes, do you want the truth? Do you want me to be honest or do you want me to be supportive before he talks and it's like a great setup. Well, he definitely has something to say. Fuck do I want to hear that right now. Alex, you'll laugh at this. The toughest feedback I've ever gotten from Shane was on the golf course when we were partnered one time and Shane's having a good round. I was not having a great round and Shane the whole time, no apologies, no apologies. Listen, we're on a team. He didn't break it for the whole 18 holes the whole time. Just like there with me, like it's all good. No apologies. We're good, we're good. Then later, after we had a couple drinks, Shane, Shane, a little bit of, you know, man, how the fuck did you leave a 30 foot putt 15ft short? Can you just help me understand how that is something that you could do out there? I'll tell you, I was taken aback. I had not received that kind of tough love from Mr. Battier, but it was good. Start working on my game.

Afterwards I go back to the Coach K thing. The opposite of love is not hate, is apathy. If I had never said anything to you ever again, that's when you would have to worry.

I know it's indifference and it was.

Only because I had high expectations of.

You or high standards.

Alex and I were talking earlier. You can give feedback to people. If you always qualify it with I'm giving you this feedback because I know you can reach the standard.

Because I believe in you.

That is the most important thing. Because I believe in you. If I didn't believe in you and didn't think you had the potential to get to here, then I wouldn't even be wasting my time. I believe in you and I think that gives you a fighting chance for people to know that he cares about me enough to say this. It's sucks and I hate it. I disagree. I think you're An Shane, But I get it.

I get my 360 review every year, and I'm a feedback guy. We got to talk to each other. We got to tell each other the truth. And I'm very disciplined on always first thing. Thank you for the feedback. You got to do it. And every time I get my 360 review, my first reaction is, I'm pissed off. To this day, I'm the feedback guy. I don't want to do that. Not right now. I'm not ready.

My only feedback for you is you leave putt short. Other than that, you're a pretty good guy.

Yeah.

That's the worst thing about you, man.

Hey, I appreciate that.

Those don't go in, Ravi. It's like throwing a ball out of bounds. They're never completed.

I know. You know, Shane was basically giving the feedback. You got to put it longer. You got to get into the hole. Really helping me out. The worst part was it was the real vibe was you let me down. You use some analogy. The dishes are going to get done, but they don't always have to get done by the same guy. Just relying on me to do the dishes. And I was like, oh, man.

I don't think I said that. I don't think I was that mean. It was a little softer than that.

You were soft, and you would have taken a lot to get you there. You were very forgiving of me on the golf course. It was good. I'd reached the new standard of you having high expectations for me. Shane is a positive coach, that's for sure. As a teammate, he's always like, you're my guy. We're a team. He's the ultimate teammate.

Being negative never helps.

Never helps.

I am a Pollyanna when I'm out there. You want to raise people up. You got it, man. Got it. Go for it. You got the shot. You're trying to cut around the corner. Do it, man. Do it. Feel it. Go for it. That comes from my dad growing up. Always positive. There was never anything negative. My Little League teams were always just super positive. All right, man, you got this. And I remember a kid named Joshua Farlow Allgas. He was out in the right field picking daisies during the game. And it would have been very easy for us to bag on Josh. You pumped him up. I think he had one hit the entire year. When he did, man, it was like winning the World Series. I'll never forget that. Do the easy things, right? And being positive is such an easy thing. It's such a free thing. And it doesn't hurt anybody. Lift your teammates up, Ravi.

It's the mindset of a shooter. You just always think you're going to make the one. It doesn't matter if you've missed the 12 prior, this one's going down. You have to have that to be a great shooter. Because if you're thinking about the ones you just missed, you're screwed.

That's definitely right. Just to go back for a second, you guys will laugh at this. I have this theory that we should not just have golf caddies, but we should have a life caddy. The caddies should come with you all the time. Hey, man, this deal, you don't feel like you're comfortable yet? Why don't you take a step back and rethink this one? Oh, no, you're hitting it great. Go for it. This is the time I realize I also have a caddy type, which I think teaches me what kind of leadership I like, which is I like the Sherpa. Relax, caddy. Bringing you down a little bit of just like, yeah, it's all good, it's all good. We're gonna be fine. We're just out here having fun. Shane, I think you might have a different caddy type than me. I think you like a little bit more specificity in the feedback. I like the guy who's just calming me down, just getting me to be me.

Just tell me the number, tell me where I got to hit it, tell me where I got to land the ball and I'm gonna do it. I'm coachable. I got it. Okay, I have a bad shot.

I got.

I got it, I got it, I got it. Just give me the right number, give me the right wind, hit it here and I will do it. That's what I like.

What about you, Alex?

I need the caddy to be able to identify my skill level and give me instruction and guidance that matches. I love the caddy. I'm not a plus two, tight lie, short game. Gimme the putter. Just hand me the putter. I don't want the 60 degree wedge here in this match on a hole that man a lot. Whatever we're playing for, this is not going to turn out well for me and I need you to identify that.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're saying you want the caddy to recognize that you're a bit of a game manager when it comes to golf. No doubt feels that's kind of what I hear you say.

Yeah, I'm straight. I'm a pretty volatile player. There's days I'm striping it. Let's go. But there's days I'm not. Let's bring this bad boy in, huh? Let's keep it in play.

Too soon, Shane. Too soon.

We have to call this pod game managers, the game managers.

There's sometimes my golf game, I don't play with an edge. I can be very honest. It's a humbling sport, and I lose an edge very fast.

Golf's a hard sport to have an edge on. Very few people play well. Pissed off.

Maybe I should try. Maybe that's my problem, though.

No, I do not think that is the right approach.

I've played against you, Alex, when you have to make a putt. I've seen that.

Look, if I was pissed off, I might make it not sustainable.

I think that for the next golf trip, we might need to give one team beta blockers. Just have them really calm the whole time. I think those are allowed just to ease up a little bit.

It's called High Noon. That's the beta blocker.

All right, take it easy, guys.

All right, fellas. Thanks for tuning in to glue, guys. We're on social media at GlueGuyspodcast, and we'll be back next.