Shane’s Story: Shoot For The Stars - [Glue Guys, EP.17]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your host, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta.

And Alex Smith, and we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms, and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

Alex, are you gonna become such a big media star that you're gonna outgrow Glue Guys and then move on?

Like, I can't believe I just told that whole story, Ravi, and you didn't press record. I mean, what the fuck? I mean, that's a fine I think we should find. And by the way, I'm the leader. I'm like the leader in the clubhouse.

I should find you whatever you guys want, man. I mean, I'm so far in the clear right now, I gotta outrun the bear.

I was outrun you.

I don't have to outrun the Bears that outrun you guys.

I was just explaining to Elizabeth, like, how far in lead I am in the fine job, which is like new for me. I'm. I've never won this. Like, in the QB room, I've never won this. I've never been the leader of Fines.

You just totally don't care about it.

Did beg the question, like, my. I'm so far in front of you guys, but I need. When does, like the season end?

Alex is going to get hit hard for his behavior because he was actually the one. If you remember, I was actually the one who started out in the bad place on Fines. You know, I came 10 minutes late to an early episode.

I think I immediately implemented the fine contest because you were late.

We actually never went over, you know, the most egregious fine in Las Vegas. We're filming.

We not aired this yet. We haven't aired this.

I don't think we talked about it.

If you don't know Glue Guys, we live bicoastally here and it's distributed podcast, but when we are each and each other's hood, we try to get together and, and, and break bread and have some. Some communion on air in. In person. And it's always a great show. And you know, Ro, why don't you tell us what. What happened the first time we tried to get together in Las Vegas.

So Alex had gone through the. The trouble of and really done a real Glue Guy thing of finding us a studio that was reasonably priced.

That's Right, I do. That's.

It was.

Thank you for mentioning that.

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. It was, it was an amazing. Yeah. And like, not done through any outsourced service. Alex was just doing it himself. Found it and you know, like, in order to.

Also because we. We don't quite have the capabilities to do it ourselves yet.

Right, right.

Like that.

Actually, us recording in person together was harder than doing it apart.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

You know, for sure. Like, we needed professional help.

The funny thing is that Shane says we're, you know, distributed. It's like, no, Alex and I are literally half a mile from each other. It's just that you're 3,000 miles away. But because we want, you know, equality on this podcast, then all three of us end up on Zoom or on Riverside. Sorry, shout out to Riverside. Anyway, so Alex finds us the studio and, you know, 15 minutes before the podcast, he sends a text because I guess he was there early and sends a text to me and Shane being like, hey, like, do I have the right address? Which, by the way, in retrospect, a little bit of a passive aggressive move being like, where are you guys? Right. I'm at the place. And I think a little bit superior, right, Shane? Like a little bit of superiority there, to be fair.

To be fair, there were no cars there either. And the door was locked. So I was, I. There was a little. At this point, it was starting to kick in. Like, I may. I may have messed something up.

Right? And, and. But I agree, Shane, a little haughty. Haughty. And the only thing was he wasn't just 15 minutes early, he was a week early. So Alex is in Las Vegas at the in person podcast. Yeah.

Shane texts back like, yeah, that's the right place. But it's next week. And I, like, my stomach dropped. Just.

I actually thought you were messing with us. I thought you were messing with us until you sent the picture of. We should put that in the show notes. The picture of you in front of Level 9 Studios.

I've never been to Vegas twice in one week in my life. And I can't. I still can't believe how this happened.

Now, in fairness, you know, you built this, this, this pod into a family vacation so your entire family was there. You know, you brought your, your boy to come with you to the studio.

I tried to steer it, though. Like, I knew that you guys, I thought you guys were obviously going to be there the week prior, and I tried to steer it there and it. And it worked and it was great. And I brought My buddy.

Yep.

I'm, like, telling him about the pod. Come check it out. It's gonna be fun. Hang, you know, like, hey, we're gonna have a live studio audience. My buddy's gonna sit there and hang out. And, like, this would be great. I drag him there early in the morning, by the way.

Vegas.

I woke him up early, you know, go get coffees. We, like, get the, you know, Uber over. And it's like. I mean, it's fucking 105 degrees at, like 9am sweating already, standing outside this locked door. The door's locked, the lights are off. There's not a car in the parking lot. That's when I sent you guys the text.

And that's when the best part about this was Alex had asked to move the time up a little bit because he's like, well, you know, only works with our family schedule. If we do it this time, then he has to go back, hat in hand, tail between his legs, to his family. Why are you back here so quickly?

And, yeah, no, Elizabeth was giving me, like, shit. Like, we're on this family vacation. Like, why did you schedule this on the family vacation? And I'm like, I just. I. I just. I gotta do it. It's gonna work. We're in person, like Shane just said. And so I go, yeah, do. I mean, it was bad. The walk back. Walk back into the room. The look on my wife's face, and she's like, why are you here? I, like, you know, 10 minutes later, I'm back in the room, and she's like, what the hell are you doing?

The most famous card game in NBA circles on NBA playing is a game called Boo Ray. Okay? And a very famous term is called. That's called match the pot. All right? You get booed, you get a match pot. So that qualifies as a match the pot.

Oh, wow.

Match the pot.

Oh, I like that. I.

That's a big find. I mean, the biggest. Like, obviously, other than just really embarrassing and the fact that I had to book another trip to Vegas the next week is we were supposed to record that day virtually. And I obviously had to just. Oh, yeah, I wasn't doing that. I didn't even. I didn't have any of my stuff, and the studio was locked, so. So, yeah, like, obviously you guys had planned to spend a couple hours hanging, and I had to, you know, last minute, last minute. We nixed it.

So, Alex, you had a very unique walk of shame in Las Vegas. Walking back to the room and, you know, telling them, well, okay, so then my fine was that I didn't have the recording on when you were telling us about the new ESPN show you're doing that I'm wondering you should tell us again. But I am wondering if that's going to make you in such a big star that you're going to leave the Glue Guys podcast and just kind of go off to bigger media dreams, you know?

Absolutely fucking not. I mean, I just hope it doesn't get me fired. Right. You know, just hope they'll have a job. No espn. You know, there have been some cuts. So no, like, dude, yeah, this is new territory for me. This. I've been doing all these interview features. As I was saying, before you pressed record, I'm flying around talking to all these QBs, which has been awesome. Right? Like, these are most of the guys I know. And so it's fun to go to training camps and interview them and do, you know, kind of breaks it up for me and preps me for the season anyway. And as part of this though, ESPN and I appreciate this, they have high production value that they want me to go. I have to do all these other. Other things like this are just around the production. Like they're going to film this full intro for me because this is like my series of things. So that's. I still haven't done that. But this is part of. The one I was talking about today is part of this QB room feature. Because I do think the QB room is fascinating and the dynamic of it and like, how do you create mentorship? How do you do it the right way? You know, and. Because certainly it can go sideways, you know, sticking a guy in his replacement in a QB room and can. Can definitely go awry. And you know, certainly it's been a part. Something I constantly get talked about, right. With Patrick and even before that with. With Cap. And so they had me film this intro though. And I, I had to play both parts. I had to play the young rookie and I had to play the veteran. But they did it. I was telling you guys, like, nutty professor style, like Eddie Murphy, like talking to the tennis ball hanging on the other side. So.

And as you can see, I had to cut. I cut the beard. So I had like, that's you. They make you shaved.

Yeah, I had full beard. They're like, don't cut it. Full beard for the, for the veteran. And I went, I went. I went with like Shane's look. I had the collared shirt and a quarter zip on. I mean, I looked like the Peyton Manning Outfit.

One of the Manning brothers.

Yeah, one of the Manning brothers outfit and you know, playing the vet and then had to go shave it and play the rookie, so. But no, I'm not, I'm not a gifted actor at all. So I'm just hope this isn't embarrassing.

What do they think about the salt and the beard for the rookie? It feels, you know, I know you're shaved. I know what you're gonna do. Yeah.

There was no makeup professional there to like darken it maybe a little, like.

Just for men, you know, I could.

Have brought a razor and shaved it, which I have not done in years. And I look embarrassingly bad like when I do that. So this was just the clippers.

And it's funny, I was thinking of, I don't know how it came across it. I was watching, I think, clips of you and, and you on your draft day. I mean, clean shaven, you look like you're 12 years old.

It's embarrassing. SHANE and I don't know, we should talk about this. I had the longest sideburns you've ever seen because it was the only facial hair I could grow. So I was very conscious that I was such a baby face and I kind of wanted to look older. So I grew these just obnoxious sideburns and they just kept getting longer. Like they started bare and then they kept creeping down. And SHANE, when I got drafted, and I don't know if you can relate to this, but it was a.

What year is this?

This is 2000, spring of 2005. It was a terrible time in fashion. Like the, especially for dress up like suits. Like the baggy Carmelo Anthony suit was still in vogue, but it was like the dying, like the end of it. And so I wore a jacket.

How many buttons?

How many buttons out?

Like six buttons on it. Like, literally I could make two suits out of it. There's so much fabric. Like the pants. It was like so obnoxious. And I see these drafts. Oh, and it just like every time it's an embarrassing, it's an embarrassing time in my life. My wife still gives me grief about it every time she sees it.

What was your suit like at your, at your draft, Shane? Were you Carmelo Anthony suit guy?

Yeah, it was very beige. You know, beige was in at that point. You know, I got the caramel skin color. Wasn't, wasn't my, my wife's. Like, it was a horrible color for you. Like, I couldn't tell where the suit ended and you began. Like, I still have the suit I still have the suit. I can still fit into my suit. All right, 23 or three years later.

All right?

So I had it custom made. I thought I was sweet. Four buttons, okay? And I thought. I thought I was sweet. Like, I didn't have a suit when I was in college. I literally did not have one suit. And so it was sort of my first suit. And I always kept it for posterity. Posterity. But that thing was frigging huge. Huge. Huge and baggy.

Can you buy a suit off the rack?

I mean, I can go to, like, you know, xl, but, you know, you.

Really do need a custom.

Yeah, yeah. Well, look, you know, I grew up before the Internet, right? And so growing up, you know, I was in high school. When I was 14 years old, I was already 6, 6, 6, 7. Right. This is before the Internet. And so I had to canvas metro Detroit for shoes that fit me. You know, when I went to Detroit Country Day when I was in seventh grade, for the first time, I didn't own a pair of dress shoes. I just never dressed up. And so I had to wear a pair of dress shoes because I had to wear a tie to school every single day. And I'll never forget, we called, like, five different stores. Hey, do you have a size 15 dress shoe? No one had it. And there was one pair of, like, oxford brown wingtips that were like an hour and a half away. And we said, save them. Save them. We want them. So here I am, the first day of school, the first day I meet my wife, Heidi. I show up to school, and he's brand new, buffed up.

This is seventh grade.

Seventh grade Oxford.

You were wearing 15s?

Yes. Wingtip, wingtip Oxford, brown lace. Ups in seventh grade.

You think that's what did it for Heidi?

You talked about the deal.

You think Heidi saw that and was just like, I gotta marry this guy.

But it was before the Internet. Like, you know, no one could. You couldn't buy anything. You know, you just said you had to go to the store, so. Yeah. So malls are useless to me, Shane.

Alex grew up in California and is younger than you are and so grew up with the Internet. And he still has a hot mail address. Okay? So don't, don't, don't feel too bad about growing up before the Internet. You know, Alex still badge of honor.

You know, it's owned by Microsoft. Like, I mean, it's a legit. It's a legitimate email service, Ravi. Okay, Like, I gotta join you. Email train.

I did not know it was owned by Microsoft. I actually was meaning to ask you if they actually like, allow photographs and videos, if you can actually receive those at your Hotmail address. But like, you know, I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure what kind of, you know, technology they have.

Whatever. I don't. I'm just gonna own it. Just owning it.

I got you a Gmail address as a gift, if you remember you did.

But like, I feel like if I change now, I'm like succumbing to the peer pressure of it all. And I've, at this point in my life, I'm, you know, I'm 40 now. Like it. I don't care.

Okay. I think Shane, you talking about being a 15, a size 15 shoe in the seventh grade is a pretty good segue. Oh, look at that. Look at that. Did you see what he just brought up?

Oh, shit. Where did you get that?

You know, just a flex swag.

Just flex.

Hide the. Hide the yeti.

Yeti is not paying for this until yeti starts paying. You know, look at Shane covering up. I was going to say it's a good segue into today's topic, which is learning more about Brother Badier. Right. But I have a challenge for us, Alex. I think that the two of us have to prevent Shane from giving us anything that's in his corporate speech as he talks about his life. Because we know all that. We've heard it. We're looking for the real, real, you know, behind the scenes, true Shane Battier information. Not. Not what we can find by going through the speaker bureau and. And paying for it.

I'm not trying to give away state secrets here for free. We're all capitalists, dude.

I want to start. All right, who was your. Was basketball your first love as a sport or were there other sports when you were a kid?

No, no, baseball.

Baseball, yeah. You were a Tigers fan.

A huge Tiger fan. That's my first memory of life. 1989. The 1984 Tigers, World Series champion. You know, I can pretty much name the starting lineup and I was six years old.

You were born in what, 65?

1978. You know, disco, Disco duck. The. The year of the. The end of disco. 1978 and my first memory of life. I don't remember anything before the 84 tigers winning the series against the San Diego Padres and Kirk Pavakwa.

My Padres. So you, I mean, played Little League then, all growing up?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I played everything, but I was a really good baseball player.

Were you a pitcher? What position?

I was a pitcher. I was A first baseman. You know, I was always tall. I could, I could hit, I could throw.

I'm envisioning like Randy Johnson on the mound. Is this the right visual right now?

From, from 45ft. And I was obviously always the tallest kid. I was throwing straight bbs. I mean that, that ball looked like it was on you before.

Ball released like three feet later than every other kid.

So like I was, I was pretty good. And I love baseball and so like, baseball was my first love. I, All I did was watch baseball. Like my favorite show was this weekend, Baseball by Mel Allen. You guys don't know about that. Great show, you know, 11 o' clock on Saturdays. But I, I grew up, but I played basketball. I love basketball. I love football too. I mean I, I love football. I played little league football. And I just grew up in a family where sports is what you did. I mean it wasn't like, like, do you want to play? Like, yeah, we're gonna play, we're gonna play. So that was our, our life was defined by this, the season of sports. Baseball in the spring, basketball in the winter, and football in the fall.

Who are your parents? Did they play?

My dad was very athletic, my mom was athletic, she didn't play sports. But my dad was, you know, my dad's claim to fame. And he let me know this, he said I'm the only baddie to score 50 points in a basketball game. And so my dad was in the army in the 60s and on his army based team in Germany he scored 50 points. All right. And so unverified. But he let me know, like, look, no matter how good you are, you never score 50 points. And that's, that's true, I never did. So shout out at Badier. But my dad was, was a, a hell of a softball player. Just an athlete. So my dad was the only black guy in the town. We grew up in Birmingham, Michigan. Right. And so like just added to this lore that he's this guy who had this like big muscles. He wasn't like a, like a super like tall guy. He was like six foot, big muscles, big booming laugh. Like, was like, was like cleanup hitter in softball and like strong. He could shoot the basketball. So like he was my hero. Like I just wanted to be my dad when I grew up. Like, like everybody kid, he was a lefty. But you know, Fast Eddie B was always a role model. And the cool thing about my dad was like, I, I can't remember a time when he ever said like, let's. I don't have time to throw the football around. I, I bugged him and I pestered him. Yes. Let's go. We catch for me, we catch for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, will you rebound for me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will you, will you, will you pitch to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take it. You know, I mean, like, I just, he was like my personal coach and I thought every day I was like that. And I just never left him alone, just pestering him with just, I just want to play, you know, and, and my brother Jeremy and I, we just, we just played, played, played. And my dad just never said no, never. You know, he was always there for us.

He's a lefty. And your son, your son Zeke's a lefty too, right?

Yeah. A family of lefties skipped a little generation. My son's a lefty, my dad is lefty. My mom's a lefty.

Oh, wow.

My younger sister's a lefty. My older brother is a lefty. Older sister I think is a righty. And then me. And so, you know, I'm an outlier in every, in every sense of the way.

When did you hone in on basketball? When did you specialize?

When I was in seventh grade. I was the kicker and punter. I was little known fact, you know, like we talked about. I was the Andy Reid, I was the Michigan state pump passing kick champion, 1990. I had like a rocket leg and a rocket arm, really good army and just, you know, at 6 foot, just wade laced every other 12 year old. And so on the country day football team. When I first went to country day, I was the kicker obviously. And you know, in middle school, kickoff squads is the team that made up of players who don't get in the game. Right.

Alex is losing respect for you as we speak. The quarterback is just looking down on you as a kicker.

I'm just picturing Shane kicking off with his size 15 Oxford Wingtips.

Quarterbacks were the punters too.

That's old school, right? D.A.

Lane. I mean, he was punter too. And so I kicked off and I ran down the field and kick cut back. And this is the first play of the game. And one of the slow offensive linemen on the kickoff team was in my way. He tripped and fell, fell right at my knee. And I'm like, damn, this really hurts. And so I'd never gotten hurt before. And so I played the entire game on this leg. I caught touchdown pass after the game. You know, this is back like 1990, so like 91. And so the coach is like, man, you Know you got a shiner. Just. Just keep bending it. Keep bending it, you know, keep it loose, keep. So I'm sitting there bending it. I'm like, man, it really hurts. So after the game, cut, touch on pass. We win the game, I go to the doctor and x rayed it and like, man, you got a broken tibia.

What?

So, you know, when brother Smith talks about his injury, obviously worse, you know.

You had a fractured tibia.

Fractured tibia. I played the entire game. Caught, touchdown, passed. And that was what end. That was the end of my football career.

They.

They put a full cast on my leg. I think I was the last person to ever get a full leg cast. And here I am. This is like the third week of school, so I'm the new kid. I got the size 15, Oxford, you know, wing tips, awkward enough, and now I got a full leg cast on, and that was the end. And the. Funny, the. The thing that pissed me off the most was the year before that, in sixth grade, pump passing kick was not a state champ, was not a national tournament. All right? When I was in seventh grade, it was the first year that the. The winner got to go to the Pro Bowl.

Hawaii, you had your eyes on a national title.

Oh, it was done. It was done. And I was so freaking pissed. I was so pissed when I broke my leg. And it was after the first round of the competition. I'm like, screw it. I'm competing. I'm competing. And so I went out there in the second round of the pun passing kick with a full leg cast on and still got it and kicked and threw. And I beat a kid. And I beat a kid. And so that might be my greatest athletic achievement. That, like, that's how insane I was, you know, I was insane. And I didn't. I didn't care, and I didn't. I didn't care about pain. And I'm like, oh, screw it. I love to compete. I'm gonna go after it. So, like, that.

That.

That sums up a story that I still competed in a full leg cast, which is ridiculous.

Okay? That's the time you start specializing. You go straight basketball. Just before we get into that, though, were you always, like, doing well in school, too? Were you always studious? Always, like, focused?

Very. Look, I was. I always had books in my house. We didn't have much, right? But my parents always made sure I had books in the house. And my. I was. I was kind of, like, annoying. That annoying kid. I never. I was like, the perfect kid. I never had to be told to study, go to sleep, eat my vegetables. I just did everything, you know, because I just wanted to honor my parents and I didn't want to give them any grief. I knew they had a tough time in the, in the real world. And so like, you know what? I'm going to be as low maintenance as possible and just, just do what I'm supposed to do. Right? That's just who I was. And it wasn't, wasn't like an act, but that was just really out of love. And so was it, was there a.

Drive to, to do well in school? Because it's like also like whatever you wanted to become at that point, like wherever you want to do. I mean, did. Was it?

Yeah, well, I was gonna be a major league baseball pitcher and so at that point. But yeah, I, I love learning. I've always been a super curious person and so that drove me to, to always do well in school, but it was really just trying to honor my parents and not try to rock the boat and kick ass. I grew up as the only mixed kid in my town. I was the only kid with a black dad and a white mom. And it was really hard. It was really, really hard. I had no role models. I didn't feel my parents understand. I didn't feel anyone could understand what I went through. And the fact that no matter where I went, I never fit in, literally. And so in a lot of ways, sports and recession, that was my time to be like, no, like, no, dude, you're going to respect me because I'm going to kick your ass.

Yeah.

And it wasn't. And I did smiling, it wasn't like malicious, but like, now you're going to let me in. And so in the classroom was sort of the same thing. Like, no, no, no, you're going to respect me because I'm going to get, I'm going to get straight A's and I'm going to make you respect me. And so like super highly competitive person, like, it didn't matter what we were doing. I was going to try to beat you. And that was like the defining force of my, of my entire childhood.

So then when did you start running with basketball? You still want to be a major league pitcher? Like, when did you, like when did basketball become your thing? I mean, obviously you were like, when, by your senior year you were right. I mean, offered by everybody. I mean, presumably.

Yeah, well, you know, funny thing happens when you're, you know, you're six foot in sixth grade and six four and seventh grade and six eight and first day of eighth grade, you're sort. You're like, you know, I love baseball, and I played baseball in high school actually. Still. I said, but I think this. I think this is basketball. I think it's basketball. And. And I love basketball. And I was always, you know, very good, very talented, and a great shot blocker, great defensive player. But after I got hurt, my mom's like, you're not playing football anymore? I knew I couldn't play football anymore, but, like, I knew it was. It was pretty. It. It was. It was basketball. Look, I. We. We talk about different paths. You know, I never thought what I did was particularly impressive. When you're. You're young in basketball and you're tall and kind of coordinated, naturally, like, you just have a huge advantage, you know? So the first time I remember seeing my name in Hoop Scoop magazine, which is like this. This rag on hoops, and I was rated the number four, fourth, seventh grader in the country. That was weird. That was weird. Just to see my name and have someone really for the first time.

You've been going to, like, national tournaments, though. Like, did you know you were, like, dominating?

How did they know your name?

Yeah, I played AAU, so I played like these. These AAU tournaments. When I was 13 years old, I went to San Antonio for the first time, played the AAU national championships, and I played pretty well. But, like, again, I wasn't, like, I didn't feel like I was, like, dominating to a level where, like, this kid is like a future pro. I'm like, yeah, I. But it was like what I had done all my. My life. I blocked a lot of shots, I grabbed a lot of rebounds, and I scored, you know? So for me, it was like, it wasn't a big deal. I was like, this is what we do. No, no, no big deal.

When was the first time you thought maybe you'd be a pro? Because Alex, one of the things I always struck by in his is sort of like, not until effectively, like, a few weeks before he's drafted does he believe that he might be a pro. When was the first time you were like, man, maybe this is possible?

When I was in high school, growing up in Detroit, I used to run with the Detroit Pistons. I used to get in their pickup games. What? Really?

Yeah.

When you're from Detroit, you go to a place called St. Cecilia. St. Cecilia's was like, it's kind of like Detroit's Rucker Park. All right, if you're anybody, you go through Saint, you go through the Saint. All right. And there's like, you know, two inches from the, from the sideline to the wall. It's a tough, it's a tough, tough game. All right, you got it. You got to be a dude. And, you know, I played against, you know, Alan Houston when I was in high school, Grant Hill, like all these, like, pistons. And like, I didn't get embarrassed. Like, I held my own, really, as.

A 15, 16 year old kid. You're playing.

Yeah. And so what? Wasn't a big deal. I was never intimidated by, by NBA guys. It was just what you did. Like, if you're a good player, you, you or Detroit for the best runs.

Is that, is that culture in basketball just in general still? Like, when you, when you were playing pro later, would, would great high school players come in the off season and like, pick up games? Like, oh, yeah, I do feel like that's a bigger part of basketball.

Yeah. Yeah. The beauty of basketball is like, look, if you can play, you can play.

Yeah.

We don't care where you're from. We don't care what your background is. If you, if you got game, all right, step up. I want you on my team. And there's just the purity of basketball, and that's why I love it so much. But yeah, like, it sounds weird, like saying it now. Like, Yeah, I was 15 years old and I'm going up against like Lindsay Hunter and Alan Houston and Don Reed and Jerome Williams, all these like, guys in the NBA. And I wasn't getting my ass kicked. I, I was scoring a few baskets and I was blocking some shots. And look, it's summer league, so they're not playing like it's an NBA playoff game.

Yeah.

You're still going back to your AAU in high school. Just like absolutely crushing high school kids at this point. I mean, I'm assuming, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I knew, like, physically I could hang. Physically, I knew I could hang. I had, I was six, eight. So like, you know, and then I also, you know, a life changing thing for me was I used to be a, a ball boy for the Detroit Pistons in the summer when the players were back working out. I used to like, mop floors and wash jockstraps and make Gatorade Shakespeare. And, you know, when they were done working on it, I got to work out at the palace with the, with the Piston strength coach. And like, I looked at those guys and I was never intimidated by them. I'm like, this is what it means to be an NBA player. Like, I can do this. Like, I, like, I They're working hard, but, like, they're not doing something I haven't done, like, in drill work before. They're just, like, older and stronger and, like, more skilled, but, like. And so, like, being able to see that, being around that every single day, you know, I look to myself as, like, I'm. I'm a pro right now, and that was my. My mentality. Like, even though I'm in high school, like, I'm gonna be a professional high school basketball player.

But, dude, this is what I was gonna ask you. I'm starting to up. But, like, it is exactly what was on my mind. Like, it. Were you ever, like, a kid? Because what I was thinking about is, like, I feel like when you're, like, you know, early, you're like, man, my parents have a lot going on. They have difficulty outside of the house. I'm gonna be easy, right? And I'm gonna, like, work hard, and I'm gonna, you know, not be trouble. You're in high school, and you're like, oh, I'm a professional high school, you know, basketball player. But, like, you know, there's no part of that where you're just like, a kid. You know what I'm saying? Like. And so where is that?

You met your wife in seventh grade?

Yeah, that's. Yeah, exactly.

My wife dumped me because I was too serious. Yeah, to your point. So I met my wife, Heidi, 9th grade or 7th grade. We dated in 9th and 10th grade, and she dumped me at the end of 10th grade. She's like, you're too serious. I want to have fun. I want to go to parties and hang out. And I'm like, I want to go to the gym.

I thought she dumped you for the quarterback. I didn't realize that. Yeah, that too.

I won.

All right?

I won. But look, I had fun. But, like, fun for me was. Was very different definition than most. Sixteen, seventeen years old. Right. You know, when I was, you know, 13 years old, I was getting, you know, probably 20, 25 pieces of mail a day from college coaches.

That was legal, right?

Yeah, back. Yeah. Back in the day, you could send a. A. No. So, like, my dad used to carry on this huge. But it's. Through it all, like, two years ago, like, like, thousands of letters from every college. So, like, I'm thinking about college, and I'm in 13. I'm 13 years old. Like, I'm not thinking about, Like, I don't go to the mall and hang out. I'm thinking, like, oh, man. Like, where am I gonna play? And so I grew up very fit. I was always mature. But, like, did I have fun? Yes. Was my idea of. Of. Of fun different? Yes. Did I make up for it when I, you know, finally got to the league and had some money?

Absolutely.

Miami, way more fun, even.

He was grass and inventory. Right.

Way more fun now than I would. But, like, again, I burned the ships. We talk about, like, commitment. I absolutely freaking burned this. I was either disciplined, I was gonna die, or I was going to the league. And there was. There's no in between.

During high school, who were your basketball idols at that point and. Or even, like, college program was like, Duke. Was Duke even good? Were they. Had they become Duke yet?

Well, I hated Duke.

I mean, Michigan. What the hell? Like, come on.

No. True story. I hated Duke. I. I unlv. I was heartbroken. I was harp. I didn't like Christian later. I didn't like Bobby Hurley. Heartbroken that UNLV beat Duke in the. The 91 NCAA Final Four?

No, no, we beat UNLV that. We beat you in a. Heartbroken that Duke beat unlv. You said the opposite.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, that's right. I was happy the year before when, you know, if you blew him out, but I was heartbroken when duke got revenge.

79, 77. Alex, that's the game.

You know the score.

You know, I was. I was a Michigan guy. I was a fab five guy. And, you know, ironically, I grew up. I went to the same high school as Chris Weber. And, you know, Chris, one of the greatest players ever to come out of Michigan. And so when I was young, like, in ninth grade, I'm six, eight, so everyone wanted to compare me to Weber, right? And Weber was just like, this beast. I mean, like, 240 pounds, dunking everybody. Like, that wasn't my game. Like, I was a great shop blocker. I was like, finesse. And so I felt the weight.

Were you wearing the long shorts, though, at that point? Were you wearing the super long Michigan shorts?

I know I had no swag. I still have no swag. Like, you know, my son laughs at me. He's like, you have no swag, dad. You never wore anything that gives you swag.

You had swag in that commercial.

Although I did wear a headband in high school. It's a true story. I was a sweater. And this is like, 95. And I'm like, I'm gonna wear a headband. And no one wore a headband in 95. Nobody. And people killing me for baddie. Take that headband. Off. You think it's the 70s. People were crushing me back in the mid-90s for wearing a headband.

You were fashion forward.

I go to Duke, Coach K says, you can't wear a headband. And wouldn't you know it, now every clown has a headband. I was ahead of the curve, and, you know, I get no credit for that. But going back to Country Day, so I was lucky to play for a coach, Coach Keener, who had been through the highest, highest level of recruitment and this craziness with Chris the first time. And so Coach Keener was amazing mentor, an amazing coach, and the perfect coach for me. He said, you gotta be yourself, man. You don't have to be like Chris. You just have to be the best Shane you can be. And I promise you, that's going to be good enough.

What a gift.

Oh, unbelievable. Unbelievable. And so I was able to play with Chris's brothers, who were awesome, Jason and David, who were close friends. And I just had a really, really great high school experience around great teammates. We won three state titles, nationally ranked, and it was just. Was a. I couldn't go to a better place from a competitive standpoint, but just from a growth standpoint.

So what changed? So, okay, so you, you don't like Duke early, right? You're. Now you're getting called by everybody. I would have thought, like Alex said that the baseline would be. Maybe you go to Michigan, but maybe it's. You didn't want to be like Weber. Like, what was it that. Where were you deciding between. Why Duke.

Michigan was in a little bit of trouble by the time I was coming up. You know, I was in seventh grade with a Fab 5 refreshment, and there were rumors that were abound, I guess you could say, in southeastern Michigan about what was going on in the program at the time. Now it'd be a totally legal game.

You know, as it should be.

Like, you know, back in the, in the 90s, it was illegal. And so by the time I was a senior, I knew that the NCAA was on Michigan's case. I wanted to play for national championships. I wanted to. To play for something big. And so Michigan was never an option. Tom, I tell, I tell this story. Tom Izzo had just gotten to Michigan State. And I love Coach Izzo. He's. He's an awesome leader and obviously unbelievable basketball coach. And I, I tell Iz this. I'm like, hey, man, like, he was on me hard. He, he, he hadn't got a great big recruit yet. I was going to be his first, and he messed up the day. He told me. He's like, man, we got the best weight staff in the Big Ten. We're gonna put 40 pounds of muscle on you, and you're gonna be the toughest power forward in the Big Ten. And I got Coach Kit, I got Coach K and Dean Smith saying, nah, man. Like, you're a small forward, man. You gotta shoot threes. I'm like, I'm with those guys. All right, I'm. I'm going Tobacco Road. All right, Sorry. Sorry, coaches. But tell is, though, that he messed up that day. But, you know, look, I had a coach, my AU coach, and he's like, man, you're like Grant Hill, man. You gotta be like Grant Hill. And for the first time I looked at Grant Hill, I'm like, man, Grant. Grant Hill's so sweet, man. I do want to be Grant Hill.

You wanted to wear FIFA.

Oh, Fila.

Fila. I mean, yeah, sorry.

Grant Hill, to me is like. He's like, Jesus Christ, man. He's, like, so good looking and smart and successful. And the fact that I could, like, call him using my phone, like, still, like, that's the one guy. And the fact that, like, I know him and I consider him a good friend. So once I wanted to. Once I made the decision, I wanted to be Grant Hill. It was Duke and everybody else. Duke and everybody else. And Grant, you know, got drafted by Detroit, and so he knew me in high school, and he told me, like, look, dude, I got. I got two titles. I don't care where you go, all right? If you go somewhere else, Duke's gonna beat your ass. May as well just go to Duke.

That was his recruiting pitch?

Yes.

That's a great pitch.

The old reverse psychology.

No, it's a stride, man. I get why you went there. No, no, I. I'm not mad. I mean, dude, Grant Hill's calling you up when you're in high school. And like.

Yeah.

You know, so when you're. When you're. When your idol tells you, I don't give a. Where you go. We're gonna beat your ass regardless. All right? You're like, all right, I'm gonna show you. And so.

That's awesome.

So I. I enjoy my conversations with Grant now telling. Letting him know that, you know, from a statistical and analytical standpoint, we have the greatest teams from Duke all time. So that's my. That's my revenge.

I do think that that's like the. Just. I'm, like, putting that in the memory bank of the way for him. To recruit you. Was that right? It was. It's not the same note every time. It's like, okay, on this guy, like, we are excellent. You know what I'm saying? And we're gonna be excellent with or without you. But, like, the pitch is, do you think you're excellent or not? You know what I'm saying?

Totally.

I mean, I'm sure Jobs did that. I mean, the best. The best people do that. When you swag and you can do that and you, you know, you can, you know, recruit the best. Yeah, go ahead.

This is legendary. Like, Steve Spurrier, remember, like, his run at Florida when they were, like, a behemoth, and everybody, you know, everybody, like, kowtows to the top recruits, right? Like, you're kind of just kissing their ass, you know, like, hey, come here. Whatever you want. You're trying to, like, you know, kind of butter them up. And Steve Spurrier, like, the old ball coach, was just, like, legendary. Like, you came on a trip and he'd say, hey, you want to be a gator? And he'd offer him right then. And he. And, like, he. If they didn't turn it down, he'd be like, that's fine. We'll find somebody else who wants to be a Gator, and, like, we'll kick your ass. You know, if you don't want to come here kind of thing. It was, like, same thing, like, very much, kind of take it or leave it. We're the. And if you want to come here, great. But if not, like, that's fine, and, you know, like, kind of no big deal. And I think it's funny, like, by not pursuing them that hard, like, it actually drew all the great talent. You're like, he's not, you know, this guy's not kissing my ass like everybody else. And it kind of was, like, made him an outlier. And they had. He had the.

Yeah, yeah. That was Coach K. Coach K gave me the very, very similar speech. And he said, look, you know, came into my living room and he said, you know, Shane, I'm not going to promise you playing time. I'm not going to promise you shots. I'm not going to promise you're going to start. I'm only going to promise you one thing. The opportunity to earn playing time every single day in practice. And if you're good enough, you'll play. I said, you're talking to me? You're talking. You're talking to me, Coach? All right. Oh, I'm gonna play. I don't know about Trajan Langdon. I don't know about Elton Brand, I don't know about anybody else you recruit. And I don't care when the death settles, I'm going to be there. And so, I mean, let me talk about what makes great leadership. And that was Coach K. Coach K knew me in high school, that I was a psycho, psycho, psycho competitor. And like that was my button. It wasn't kissing my ass and telling me how great I was. You know, I didn't care about that. It was, I'm gonna challenge you to be great and maybe you can make it, maybe you can't. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna show you. You're gonna talk about me like you talk. You never talked about anyone before. And he had me hook, line and sinker because he knew that little fact.

I think that that is like something people completely miss in any sort of recruiting or leadership in general. Right? They just like, they just like go and run the play and it's like, no, you have to, you know, change it for each person then. I really love this idea of like, we have created something that's going to be excellent with or without you. It's easier with you, sure. But like, no matter what, we're going to be great. By the way, Shane, can you tell the story of just before you get to like the Duke part of when you were recruited and the 15 minute window you gave to people? I just think it's this ridiculous story that you've told me in the past of like how you set the boundaries. It's, it's crazy.

Yeah. Alex, you'll appreciate this. So like in, in high school recruiting, it's a little more organized now. But back, you know, when I was recruited in the late 90s, it was just a shit show and you have coaches calling it every, you know, every hour of the night, just trying to find you, just trying to get you on the, on the phone just to connect. And so I wanted my time. I didn't want to be tied down and distracted from my schoolwork and my basketball. And so I had my list of six schools. It was Michigan, Michigan State, Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and Kentucky. And I went by alphabetical order and every Monday night I said, coach K, your window is from 8 to 8:15. I will be there and I will be all yours. All right, Coach izzo, you're from 8:15 to 8:30. And I went down the list.

Shut the hell up.

And this is, this is.

Think about how crazy this is.

This is how psycho I was. I mean, I was psycho. And so, like, the coaches appreciated it. Like, they liked it because they knew I was going to be there and they knew, like, they didn't have to talk about nonsense and they moved on. So, like, it was a win. Win. I loved it. And I'll never forget Rick Pitino at Kentucky called me outside of his window one time. Time. And he called me from Yankee Stadium. He's like, yeah, we're, you know, we're at the World Series. I'm in Steinbrenner's box, and I just wanted to holler at you and just, you know, just, Just connect. Say, say, how you doing? It was like a Wednesday night. I said, coach, man, it's great to hear from you, man. I'm. Thank you for calling. It's, you know, have fun, you know, go Yankees. I'll talk to you later. Click. I hung up. I said, mom, take Ketu off the list. That guy doesn't respect my rules. He's not going to respect me if I go there. Take him off. So Kentucky was off the. Off, you know, off the ship after one phone call. And, you know, no one else. Holy. No one else broke the rules.

But that's like the most disciplined 17 year old I've ever heard of. Like, every other kid would be, like, loving the attention. Yes. Call me like all these coaches want me, you know, like.

Yes. It's just so different. But then, Alex, can I tell you the other thing that's happened? Our boy, Brother Badier, is really mellowed out. I mean, can you imagine? He's. He should have been kicking your ass off the podcast for showing up 12 minutes late. When you're outside the window, you're breaking the rule.

He's gotten soft.

He's really evolved in his old age.

Well, when you live in South Florida that long, you get a little soft. You know what I'm saying? He's lost the Detroit. Detroit has been. That was a long time ago.

Long time ago.

Detroit against the Midwest forever. You know, you never lose that gene, Alex. You never lose.

And these guys, these coaches called every week.

Yeah, yeah. On their window and, you know, said. Said their. Said their piece. And look again, I don't know where that came from, but, you know, when I decided to go to Duke, it was important for me to call each coach and tell them that I. I appreciated their recruitment of me and I have a lot of respect for him, but I've chosen not to go to their school. And, and most, Most of the. The coaches were super classy. Tom Izzo was amazingly classy. Roy Williams was. Was awesome at Kansas.

Which call was the hardest?

Dean Smith. That was the hardest.

Coach, what did he say?

Ironically, he let me off the hook the easiest. I tell this story, and it was pretty funny. So, like, I'm super nervous. I'm super nervous. You know, I had the press conference to announce I'm going to Duke like, Like, right after this. This is the last thing I'm doing before I go on stage and put the hat on. I'm going to Duke and I give the speech. Coach Smith, you know, thank you so much. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and your program. It's true. If I didn't go to Duke, I'm going to Carolina, which is, like, the irony. Everyone thinks I hate, you know, I hate Carolina at all. I would have gone to Carolina if I didn't go to Duke, but Duke was the answer. And so I said, you know, coach, thanks, but I'm going somewhere else. But, you know, best of luck. Look forward to competing against you. And there was, like, silence. And he says, all right, good luck, and hangs up. I'm like, oh, my God, am I in trouble? I felt like I, like, you know, did something, like my grandpa or something. But, like, I told that story to got back to him, and he wrote me, like, the nicest letter afterwards, and he's like, no, no, you know, I didn't mean to be abrupt. You know, I was distracted that day. But he wrote me a super, super nice letter. So, you know, major props to Coach Smith. And in the Carolina program, you know, we still beat their ass, but I respect them.

This is very nerdy for me, but what was Coach Smith's recruiting pitch if Coach K's was. I'm not going to promise you this. I'm not going to promise you this. What was the UNC recruiting pitch under Dean Smith? Because he's, like, such a legend, right? What did he say?

Very different. Where Coach K was rooted in competition and, like, survival of the fittest, Coach Smith's recruiting pitch was entirely about family, you know, and that was the thing about the Carolina program. You know, to that point, you ask anyone from Michael Jordan to James Worthy to Vince Carter, like, once you were part of the Carolina family, it was forever. I mean, Coach Smith had your favorite word, the F word, but it was real. It wasn't. It wasn't hokey, like fake family. It was real. Like, in. In his will, he left. Left every Coach Smith, when he passed away, left every player $100 ever played for him and said, please take your wife out on me.

Right.

That's very clear. That. That played for. Just take your wife out one last time on me. And, like, that was the Carolina program. And then that. That was what the appeal was, to be part of that. That fraternity. The ironic part was that at the time, everyone's like, man, like, don't go to Duke. Like, Duke doesn't have any pros. You know, like, Christian Laitner flamed out. Bobby Hurley flamed out. Danny Ferry, you know, all these guys, like, flamed out. And so, like, Carolina had the roster, Jordan and Worthy and all these guys. And, like, man, Carolina produces pros. Duke doesn't produce pros. Well, you fast forward, you know, 25 years later, who. Duke of Kentucky has, like, the most pros by, like, Miles. Miles. And everyone's saying Carolina doesn't produce pros. You know, you gotta go to Duke if you want to be a pro. So, like, I knew that I wanted to be part of that. That change. And, you know, I think I made the right choice.

The list of college coaches you've just rattled off that were, like, calling you weekly is absurd. I mean, did you just hear those names? That is like.

I mean, it's just like, murderers.

It's like Mount Rushmore of college basketball. Holy smokes.

But you know what, Alex? Again, I was not intimidated because, like, this is. This is what. This is what I work for. And, like, I was never. I was never surprised by my success because I always thought it was just part of the plan. Right? And so when I have Ro Williams calling me. Yeah, of course, like, yeah, he's. He's kind of supposed to call me. Not like, oh, look, I'm so great. And like, Ro Williams calling me, like, oh, yeah. Okay, this. This makes total sense. This totally, totally logical and part of the plan. I'm on my way to the NBA and you talk about irrational confidence all the time. Like, they were like, I didn't. I didn't know anything else. It wasn't like, an arrogance. I don't. I was not a cocky player or, like an overconfident person by any means. I just believe, like, yeah, this is just the route that I'm supposed to be on. And.

Okay, when was the first moment? Maybe it was at Duke. Maybe it wasn't until you became a pro of kind of like a little bit maybe some doubt in there. Maybe a little humble. Yeah. Was there a moment, like, you know, like, oh, maybe I'm not all that. Yeah. You know, like, these guys are good.

Too. Probably Midnight Madness. Midnight Madness. The first time, you know, what's Midnight Madness? It's the first, the first open you do guys, dude, you know, now everyone does Midnight Madness. Everyone's got, you know, games now. But this was like the first practice of the year and Cameron was as a freshman. So like Cameron's Soldox were number one team in the country. You know, Wojo's back, Trajan Langdon, you know, number one team in the country. And Dick Vital is there. And I'll never forget talking to my, my fellow freshman Chris Burgess and I'm just like, holy. Like, can you believe this? It was the first time like when you're in Cameron for the first time when it's full and like they're of kind there to see you, it's intimidating and, and I was just like, wow. And we, you know, I, I had been through the preseason training and I'd played so like I like I knew I belonged. But it's funny like, you know, we talk about like narrative and I had like one of the best preseasons I ever had, like on any level before that freshman year because I was so scared that I wasn't going to be good enough. So I came in the best shape ever. I was like cut up. I was like. And I kicked everybody's butt like for the, for the script, the preseason scrimmages. And a funny thing happened when the real season started. I fell back into a very passive, subservient role because I thought it was not my time to be that guy as a freshman. As a freshman. As a freshman. And so even though I was scoring points and doing all this stuff, I did not want the focus to be on me my freshman year. And so I like, I never shot and I just like did all the like the, the dirty glue glue guy plays that, that I became famous for. But like that's all I focused on. Playing great defense, diving for every loose ball, taking charges, like doing all the grunt work. Because I knew like that was my best way. I thought in my mind like that was the best way to get playing time. Not like necessarily scoring, but I was like scoring like a ton. But like, so when I got into the, the regular season, like I scored a little bit but like I didn't show anything that my teammates saw when I first got to campus when I was playing the best of my career.

Okay, so, so that's the first time the self doubt comes Midnight Madness. You kind of solve it I guess by you know, working harder being a glue guy. Right? Then after Freshman year. What happens then?

So I have a great freshman year. I think I make all defensive team. I started majority of the year. Elton Brand, you know, who became the number one pick in the draft a year later, broke his foot and so I slid in. I was the center of that year. So I was gardening guys way, way bigger than me. We had a fantastic year, you know, finished the year number one in the country, number one seed. We drop a 18 point second half lead to Kentucky and in the regional final, we should have gone to the final four and we lose. All right, so we come back the next year for our sophomore year and like again, number one team in the country. But we know we have like a, we have like a real, a real stick this year. Like, like real. Like when we got on campus, it was like, okay, this is going to be a no doubt year when you're at Duke. Look, you go to Duke to play for championships, right? So you're not like wowed by expectations. You're not wowed by beating Carolina, you know, you're very steady, you know, And I'm sure Urban had this same mentality. It's just like, okay, what's next? What's next? And that's the thing Coach K always talks about, next play. The cool thing about Duke was that there was, there was a tradition, okay? And when I got to campus, it was Trajan Langdon, it was Steve Wojohowski, it was Rashawn McLeod, the upperclassman who taught me what it meant to be a Duke guy, okay? And when you're young and freshmen, you think, you know, like, but you have no idea. When you go to a, you know, as esteemed program like Duke, and I'll never forget, like my freshman year.

I.

Was very slow and I hated doing wind sprints, okay? Even though I was in great shape. One day before preseason conditioning, I'm walking over to conditioning and I go, oh, man, I hate sprints. I hate running 17 across, which is the hardest thing in basketball. And Wojo stopped, turned around and looked at me and said, you know what? I hate losing. And then turned back around and we kept on walking. I'm like, oh, like I thought about 2 inches tall and I learned to be a Duke man. You don't complain, you just do the work, right? And it's kind of like we talk about leadership. We talk about, you know, the strong leader from the, from the coaching position or the CEO position. You know, I had such strong leaders from the upperclassmen that taught me how to work, how to be strong. How to be resilient. Right. And there were spoken things and there were unspoken things that you just pick up on how really, really successful veteran guys act. I'm sure.

What were some of the unspoken things, Shane?

Just like, Trajan Langdon just iced his knees after every practice. And, like. Like, no one told him to ice his knees. And so I asked him one day, why. Why ice your knees? He's like, because it makes you. It gives you longevity. And so, like, again, it's those unspoken things that, like, okay, so I'm Ice my knees. I want to be like Trajan Langdon. So, like, for the rest of my career, I ice my knees after every practice and every game. Right? And so, like, yeah, if it works for trade, and trade is awesome, like, I'm. I'm gonna do that. Right.

When you went back to Duke, like, years later, even, obviously throughout Coach K's run, were there those traditions that you talk about, like, that ethic, the culture that obviously is getting handed down kind of upperclassmen to, you know, lower classmen and that just. That cycle keeps rolling. Right. Were there traits and characteristics that, like, were identifiable that, like, when you were there, I mean, obviously Coach K is still the head coach, but, like, those things you're talking about, like, that. That kind of got handed down, you.

Know, I think part of the reason why Coach K retired because it was harder to do, to have those lessons and think about it, you said, guys, yeah, one and done years. Yeah, it's just. It's really hard to compress four years of lessons into one year. Yeah. And. Or, yeah, I didn't think about that because these guys are leaving, you know, the spring of their. Or their freshman year. And. And so, look, if you've been. If you played under Coach K, you know, we talk about the brotherhood, and there's always, like, man, that was the hardest shit we've ever, ever done. And none of us would want to do it again. But it's almost like going through basic training. Like, no, it's a badge of honor that we went through Duke and played under Coach K, and we're going to have him as a guest, you know, at some point, but a huge badge of honor that, like, this is the hardest thing that any of us have ever done on the basketball court. Not the basketball court, really, to get through, and the mental energy it takes and the physical pain that you. It takes to be great and come out the other side. And so harder than the pro, Shame.

Harder than the pro.

Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

He just seems like such a Nice guy.

The mental attention to detail. The mental. Every single day. Exhausting exhaust. We talk, we talk about like, you know, what are you willing to do to be great? You know, most people will do their best when it feels good and it's a good day. You know, it's the days you feel shitty, the days you're tired, the day you didn't get sleep, the day you're sore. What are you doing on those days? Days to attune your habits. To get a little better, right? To still execute, Right? Because no one cares. No one cares. Do you execute or do you not execute? Do you give effort? Do you not give effort? Do you give mental effort? Do you not give mental effort? And so you just, you just learn to do all these things. Very militaristic, right? And, and obviously Coach K played at West Point and you know, being in the army, like any soldier you talk to, that's, that's what you do. It's like it doesn't matter if I'm hurt or if I am, you know, in your rehab, Alex, like, no, you do the job because that's the job to do, right? And, and so the training, but to learn that is not for everybody. You gotta be different to take to that.

It's relentless.

Same, relentless every day.

Shane, you obviously have a ton of success in high school. Ridiculous. College career. Absurd. One of a kind. Are you not your number two on the list? Right? Is that two your second on the all time list?

I'm some list.

I just wanted to check.

But number one on the four year players.

Number one.

Oh, the four year guys.

Yeah, yeah.

But then you get drafted six overall, like. But is this kind of the first time? I mean those teams weren't very good, right? Those Memphis teams.

So here's a stat for you. Here's a stat. So when I graduated, my team's at Duke win 133 and 15, which is a record for a four year period. No, no, no one's, no one won more games in a four year period. With respects to other people, I hope.

On the show note that they, they show, you know, when they.

What's his name again? I gotta remember his name.

What's his big and zaga guy.

Yeah, no one's, no one ever won.

More games in a four year old.

He doesn't want to say it.

Okay, Alex, When Shane gets mad, his lip curls a little bit right here. When he's, when he's, when he's annoyed and so you just saw it a little bit coming up.

Respect Those guys mark few hell of a coach. But I got drafted by the Memphis Grizzlies, who at the time had just moved from Vancouver when I was a rookie. And they had the lowest winning percentage of the four North American sports. NHL, mlb, NBA, NFL. So literally the worst franchise in North America, right? And it showed. I show up on the first day of conditioning and again I think I'm back at Duke. And so I come in the best shape of my life. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the NBA. He's the greatest athlete of all, like, in the world. I got to be in world class shape. So our test was a mile run, one mile run, four trips around the track, okay, At Rhodes College. And I take off. I'm not super fast, but like, I take off. The guy, the only guy was beating me was Michael Dickerson, who was a freak athlete. And like, you know, he runs like a 4, like a 445 mile, whatever, just takes off. So I run my 5, 10 mile, 515 mile, whatever it was. And along the way, I lapped four of my teammates. And those four teammates, I'm not going to name names. They did not, they were unable to finish a mile run, okay? So you think about pro athletes. Pro athletes could not do a mile run. And so of course I do the Duke thing. I go back and I have his, you know, one of my teammates, you know, arm around me. I'm like, come on man, we got to finish, we got to finish. We got to do it, we got to do it. And they're looking at me like, man, know, you get the hell away from me, you know? And so like, I saw first, on my first day of my new life, I'm like, what is this? And I saw why it was such a horrible culture. And like, why? Like the lack of professionalism, the lack of attention to detail, the lack of resilience. And like, I saw that and we got our heads kicked in like, bad. You know, I lost more games by December than I had in four years of dude Duke, right? And so I learned very, I had to grow up very, very quickly and learn to stay positive in a situation I wasn't used to.

Was there attitude by those veterans that you were like a try hard?

It was bad. So there were days when I'll never forget, we had the ubiquitous team meeting, no coaches. And I hate those meetings because there's just a bunch of locker room lawyers, nothing productive, locker room lawyers. And so I, you know, I state my piece, I stand up, I say, hey, guys, like we have a bunch of. We have a very young team, you know, Paga Soul just got off the boat, you know, literally from Spain, you know, a couple. Couple weeks ago. Doesn't speak much English. A hell of a player. But I'm like, we got a bunch of young guys here. Like, we need your voice. Like, I'm used to, like, Trajan Langdon and Steve woJohowski and Rashawn McLeod, like, taking me under the wing and, like, teaching me how to be a pro. And they look at me and say, hey, Duke boy, shut the fuck up. Like, you got to learn. You got to learn on your own. Like we did. And it was just like. Like, anti glue guy. It was like ant. Like, anti pro sports. It was like everything like I learned at Duke, but, like, the opposite. And so I learned, like, look, I can't come in here guns ablazing and just say, like, hey, you know, you. This is how we win, right? I had to, like, learn how to build credibility, and I had to learn to show these guys that, look, I'm not trying to put one over on you. I'm not trying to get you fired. I'm here to help. I'm here to help. I've done that my entire career, and I've won, and losing sucks, and. But the only way we can do it is, like, we got to do it together, as corny as that sounds. And so that. That was the. The aha, welcome to the NBA moment internally that I. That I had to learn.

This is just an aside, but I was thinking about this. It's weird that if you're. It's very different in pro sports. If you're really good, you end up on a really bad team, right? Definitionally, you know, through the draft, you think about, like, regular business. If you're really good, you actually end up on a really good team, right? And you have. As a young person, you have all these people teaching you. You have role models inside your organization. Like, I went left school, I went to McKinsey, right? Like, all of a sudden, there's all these people you can learn from. And the only time you actually end up at a team where you need to learn more that's not as high performing at the time you go is later in your career, right?

You.

You have to, like, you go there and you're already. It's the first time you're going somewhere else where you have to play that role. But, like, it happens when you're 30, 35, 40. You guys, it's happening at 20 or 21. It's actually. It's like a very bizarre and different thing, you know, for sure.

You know, like, you said it like, if you coming out of Harvard Law, you're going to the best law firm in the country. Like, you pick your letter. You come out of these MBA programs, like Ivy League. Like, you're picking where you want to go work, you're demanding your comp, right? Like, and you're getting. Well, the, the most fucked up part about this whole thing is like, what do you think the Duke. The Duke basketball program is worth from a value standpoint? I mean, it's. It's a little NBA team, right? Like, like, honestly, from a monetary standpoint, like, it's. It's a huge fucking name. We just said this like, you played for free. Yeah, like, you played for free. Free labor. Like, that's messed up. And then when you wanted to finally had the chance to go play professionally and make a living, they told you where you had to go and work, and you were a slotted salary. Like, that's fucked up. That's like. It's so un American on a bad team.

It's get.

Dude, like, so this is like, like the Jamar Chase thing right now. He's holding out of the Bengals. And I'm like, think about how long this guy's been underpaid. Like the LSU program that it's fucking enormous. You won them a national championship for free, right? Then he gets a. What is he, the second or third pick overall? Or, you know, like, and they tell him where to go, and a slotted salary, which he's outperformed. And finally he's like, demanding more money, which good for him. And then, like, people are upset about it. I'm like, what?

Yeah. No, I mean, like, Alex, like, to your point, I should have paid McKinsey for my first job, easy, right? Because, like, they're just teaching me. I mean, the fact that I got paid at all is, you know, incredible. And you just. Yeah, it's totally different. It's almost. You basically get turned into a grown up in a. In a hurry, right? All of a sudden, like, it's just. You're just dumped in. You guys have said this, like, the mentorship is an anomaly if it exists, right? And all of a sudden you're just like, in. And.

But, man, you know, the lessons I learned from that. Invaluable.

Yeah, right? But same if you're a point, like.

You have, you know, like, you had the paint, you know, but like, that's where the good stuff comes yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Our boy, you know, David Senra. What do you say? Excellence is.

Excellence is the capacity to take pain.

Yeah, yeah.

Episode 184 founders. Check it out. Unbelievable. Is it or sharp.

So I agree with you, Alex. It's a crazy, crazy system. But if you make it to the other side, most guys don't make it through. Right? But if, but again, if you make it to the other side, man, you are galvanized. There isn't anything you can do, you can't do. Right. And you'll be compensated for that. Right? And like, that's, that's probably the hardest, the most difficult thing as a glue guy, when I do these corporate speeches, not to get corporate speechy on you, but people are so worried that I'm not going to be seen. I'm gonna fall through the cracks. And so I don't have incentive to do these things to help my team win because no one's gonna see me. And I'm wasting my time and my efforts and I'm gonna fall through the cracks. I'm never gonna reach my dreams. And I, I argue just the opposite. Like, that investment of going through the. Going through that pain and you come on the other side, man, you, you have so much more optionality. Just the opposite.

Shane, I couldn't agree with you more. And don't you think I've been thinking about this a lot? Like, one aspect of great leaders and we haven't like hit on it, but you just did, is like, they make everybody feel seen, right? Like, and even if it's like from testing them, right? Like, to go to your point, like, demanding or supportive, Ravi, like, that's both are like, you know, you feel seen either way, right? Like, even when you're pushed, you matter. And this is like the, Is it the Frank Blake, my guy from Dome Depot, My guy, like the reverse pyramid. My guy. Like, I'm fascinated by this, bro. Like, again, the handwritten letters and the stories of the people and employees on the front line that, like, he would share to everybody. Like, again, it was like that exact same thing you're talking about, Shane. Like, I see you. Like, I see these great deeds that you think go unnoticed. And I think there's so much power in that. And I think you're. I think you're spot on.

But I do think that to your point though, Shane, you have to command that. Like, yeah, the leader should make sure people feel seen for sure, whether it's through inspecting their work or demanding or being supportive. But the glue guy, glue person Glue Gal. They need to have faith that it'll happen because that's the thing you had, right? Like it wasn't happening for you. And you're like, you know what if I just keep doing the right stuff, it'll happen and then Hubie comes in, like it changes, right? But you do, even if you're not being seen, you have to believe. You know what I'm saying? You have to keep that faith.

Yeah. And I'm sorry, one more thing. And I think, Shane, you talk about this a lot too and kind of the power of teammates, but like, like teammates can see each other too, right? And recognize it. And I think so often, like there is this. You don't, you don't do it. You don't say the thing, you know, like you just hold back. I got, you know, and, and in life and in general, but certainly on a team, like the power of that, right? When, when you like. I wish I'd have said it to Blake A. Sanso, right? Like, but I didn't, you know, I just didn't have the guts.

But Shane, it feels like the, the, the real then. Like, speaking of scene though, I know we have the Memphis part, but I do feel like the Houston thing feels like a moment of like revelation. Right. Like people really like getting you, you know.

Yeah. Well, thank God for Michael Lewis. Michael Lewis really changed my Life, you know, 2009, wrote an article called the no stat all star. I mean, he followed me around for, golly, seven, eight, nine months and was trying to distill like how I did what I did. You know, for those who don't know me and are huge instacart fans, only here because of Ravi. I had a 13 year NBA career and I averaged like eight points a game. Wasn't like tremendous stats, five rebounds. All right. But every team I ever played on one and won at a super high level. And actually when I was on the court, my teams played at a championship level versus when I was off the court. And Michael Lewis thought this was super compelling because like I was not super athletic, I was not flashy, I had no swag, didn't score a lot of points. Found this fascinating. Wanted to tell the story of the no stat all star and this is kind of the, the birth of glue guys many, many, many years ago. And he chronicles exactly what I did sort of from the inside and from the outside, externally, internally, to influence team dynamics, to help my teammates play well. And so like I like, even though I averaged three points or three rebounds a game for the Miami Heat. When I was on the floor, my teams rebounded better than when I was off the floor. Right. Even though I didn't score that many points, my teams outscored other team when I was on the floor versus when I was on the bench. And so for the first time, like, you know, people said, oh, Betty is actually pretty good. And. And so it was a really weird phenomenon. Revving we talk about it, I went from being like, I guess maybe an overrated player in, in college because people didn't think I was going to be that good. And I had NBA GM say, now he'll be the biggest bust in the 2001 NBA draft, you know, even though I was national player of the year, so going from overrated to being a. A underrated player, you know, thanks to Michael Lewis, which in turn probably made me an overrated player by the end of my career. And then now my Legacy, you know, 10 years after I retired is probably, you know what, he was a valued player. Right? He's probably a valued player. So I think I found the, the right. But like, I. I've had a very interesting career arc to go from overrated, Underrated, overrated to.

To.

To rated thanks to Michael Lewis.

And this all takes place. This is in Houston.

Yep.

And at this point, had you already kind of had analytics started, which was. Kind of took place in Houston, right, Like with the Rockets, had that, had that already taken part of your game? Like, had you already adopted that from a defensive standpoint?

No, look, I just did what I did and it wasn't until I, you know, talked to our boy Sam Hinkey and Daryl Morey, they said no, actually, like the things that you do that no one will ever, ever know that you do have tremendous value. Like I was like in the 99 percentile of like running back on defense. Okay. So when a shot goes up, you have two choices. You can go for the offensive rebound or you can run back and prevent a fast break on the other team. And so like, I was like pretty good offensive rebounder, but like, I was really, really good at like getting back and stopping fast breaks. Well, that prevention, like saved our team. Like I don't like five or six points a game right in the box score. You would never, ever know that I did that.

Yeah.

And what's the average point differential in NBA game, Shane? Ish.

Well, it's, it's zero. That all has to average out. But.

My point is like a typical NBA game is like pretty close.

Yeah, usually a typical game decided by three or Four points.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's like, the difference in the game, right? Like.

Yeah, so. So Daryl Morey and Sam Hinkey taught me, like. Like, all these intangible plays that are not measured by the box score. All right? You know why the box score exists in football and in basketball in any sport? You know why it exists? Because it's the only way to explain how the game is played by easily measurable things. Okay. They measure yards passing because you can count, you know, okay, the ball went 10 yards and it's 10 yards passing. Right. They can measure tackles because it's a tackle. Right. Very, very difficult to measure the amount of space you're creating by sending a man in motion. Right? But there is a value 100 associated with putting the guy in motion. Right? Or, you know, rotating the defense. There's a value to that. Right? And so in basketball, no different. A loose ball has a value. Running back on defense has a value. Right. Just not turning the ball over over has a value. And so, like, all these things that were not covered in the box score, I was like the 95th, 100 percentile in the NBA. And I saved my team and created value for my teams at, like, this crazy, crazy rate. And, like, that's why Daryl traded for me, because I did all these things. I helped my team win, and I had a very low salary. And so I was like the ultimate worker. Cheap labor that was very, very productive. And so, look, I sat with Daryl and Sam and they taught me the ways of data, and they taught me a different way to look at. Look at the game of basketball. And all of a sudden, I looked at basketball not as of a game of. Of made shots and missed shots, which most people look at basketball, but it just a. A. Just a collage, a portfolio of all the different ways that you can create value and take away value from your opponent. And if you do, you know, if you. If you make good plays, guess what? You accrue more value for your team. If you make bad plays, you take away value from your team. And so it's no different than running a business. So I became obsessed with, like, all the edges. I could pick up just little. Little basis points here and there that all add up that.

That.

That's what I did naturally. But for the first time being in Houston, in the data analytics scene, it could be explained with data.

Alex, you know, the other. When we were in Vegas, not the first time you were there, but the second time you were there with us, actually. But I was sitting in a blackjack table with Shane, right? And we're sitting there and there's like four or five of us playing. And like some string of aces comes out. Okay. Like, just a ton. And the rest of us are like, oh, this sucks. You know, like, man, a lot of aces are going. Shane stops playing. He sits at the table and he takes his chips away and we're like, what are you doing? He's like, the only way you can win in blackjack is if you, like, the ace is a really critical card. And now we don't have any aces in the deck. There's been a disproportionate amount that have come out and like, like, I'm not playing. Like, what do you mean you're not playing? And he sat out the rest of the shoe. So this guy's like, analytics, you know, it, it extends, you know, even now at the blackjack table. Like, he's like, no, like, I'm. I don't have this edge. Like, I'm not playing. It was crazy. Like, you just like took the gift off the table.

Remember, this is the guy that gave us the Google score info. But Shane, this, this has taken over the NBA, right? Like, this is everywhere now.

Yeah.

And like, you're to blame.

I'm not to blame.

It's your fault.

You're always, you know, players are always going to do whatever they do they can do to get an edge.

Right.

Legally. Right. And all data is, is you're just trying to mitigate your risk and.

Sorry. In which, in which numbers have value. Right. Like, what really has value? Right. And so long people have just been looking at points per game and things like that. But there's all these other stats.

If you took like a, like a. The most telling is like a scatter plot of all the shots. Shots taken. If you do take on like the average, like all the shots taken in the NBA in the 2001 season, okay. You know, there'd be a lot of, A lot of dots, you know, at the rim, you know, but they'd be pretty well dispersed. Right. You know, some, some three pointers, you know, but, you know, not a ton. You know, a lot of shots at the elbows and long jumpers. If you look at a shot chart of the 20, 24 season, it is very, very, very concentrated. Rim shots and three points.

Yeah.

Literally the, the long two point jumper has been taken out of the game. Why? It is the hardest shot to make. And people say, no, no, no, I. Everybody makes it. No, no. The way you have to look at it is like the average possession in the NBA. The score is at about 50% clip, right? So every time a team comes down on average, they're gonna score a point. Okay? The average long two point jumper, that's from 20ft, you know, off the bounce, that's like a 40% shot. Okay? So every time someone takes that shot, it's only worth point eight points, right? So you're, you're losing two tenths of a point every single time. 200 bips every single time you take that shot. All right? You do that enough, you're going to lose. And you just can't, you can't make up that efficiency anywhere else on the court at a high enough level to make up for those bad shots, right? And it's no different than blackjack. That's how I learned, like Sam and Daryl taught me, like blackjack, if you get an ace shown to you, you got to split that every single time. And why does that guarantee you a win? No, but if you split those aces over the course of a shoe, over the course of a session time and time again, it gives you the best chance of winning. And so in sports and really in life, you just want to put yourself in the right position to have success. And you have to be willing to understand the role of randomness and live with the results knowing that, you know, what the environmental factors were pure. And that's all I did in basketball, whether it was Gordon, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony playing basketball, just give myself the best chance to win and disassociate myself from the result.

Hey, Ravi, have you had Shane over to the Gupta school to do a blackjack lesson with the boys? Maybe, maybe next time put it on the docket. That's right.

Uncle Shane did do a session, you know, with, with the Gupta boys last year, but he has not done a blackjack session, which I think, I think they would really enjoy. I do think that there is a risk of the good, the children becoming gambling addicts, though, so I'm a little nervous to introduce this to them.

It's risk assessing, guys. It's about risk assessment. It's not gambling. It's. It's learning to deal with risk. That is a skill that we could never be too good at.

Shane, one thing we've talked even on the podcast about some of the Miami, you know, stories and the evolution and some of those stories. One thing I've never asked you is like, did you know, did you think LeBron was going to be as good as he was when you, like, went there, because you talk about maximizing the chances of winning, all that stuff. Like, were you surprised by how good he was? Did you already know from your studies? Like, you know, how was he compared to what you expected?

You have an idea of who a guy is because you play against him, but you don't know what makes the great players great, how they react under stress. Right? That's. That's separation. And so you don't. You don't know that until, like, you know, you may play him in a playoff series and it's a big shot, whatever. But until you see a guy or a gal, you know, operate under extreme stress where the consequences are real, that's when you really know somebody. And so I was. I was surprised, positively surprised by how great LeBron was by his ability to handle the scrutiny and the pressure that he was under. And so, like, I knew he was under a lot of pressure and a lot of eyeballs. When you're with him, you don't understand, like, man, this guy is always being watched, always. And every move he makes is being critiqued, criticized, praised, everything. And he still delivered, man. He still. When I, When I was there, at least he always delivered. And, you know, that's what I say about, about mj. Same thing. And so I learned, you know, first of all, LeBron's an amazing teammate, but the pressure he was under to still execute and, and be great is why I respect him, you know, more than. More than anybody's played this game.

Yeah.

Was Miami already when you got there? I mean, this was the start of the Miami culture, right? Like, it had. You got. You guys established it had. It was. I mean, or was it already in place?

Oh, you know, Pat Riley and SPO had, you know, the culture was in.

Place, but they hadn't won.

And that's why I went there. Like, if they would have beat Dallas that first year, there's no way I'm going to Dallas. I'm not, you know, I was ring chasing, but I wasn't championship chasing. Yeah, I would have go to San Antonio, go, you know, full stop. But since they lost to Dallas, you know, selfishly, I said, you know what? They're going to win a championship and they're going to win a championship soon, and, you know, I might be able to time it where if I go, you know, I get some of the credit for going to be playing the difference maker, right? So I was playing the odds and, you know, it worked out as I'll do two championships later. No, it was an Amazing, amazing team. The culture was amazing. The cool thing about the locker room and we had dudes, we had dudes, hall of famers up and down the locker, locker room. But like, there was, there was no bullshit. You know, we were there, we were there to win and be legendary. And no one had time for petty pettiness about shots or roll or this. We bust each other's balls and, and it wasn't always, you know, champagne and roses, but the overarching theme was we're here to, to create a historic team. And like, it was such an unbelievably worthy ride.

Mission orientation. I take that one as like the peak basketball mission orientation. Whenever we go through the trust mission framework, you know, someday that to me is like, peak of that.

And every guy could finish the mile.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's all that helped.

We had weight and body fat every week. So Pat, Matt Riley loves, you know, to be a world class champion. It seems to be in world class, physically peak shape. And so every week, you know, our, our strength coach, Bill Fran will come out with the calipers. Very scientific. And he'd come pinch your fat and he would tell you how much your body fat was, you know, and not scientific at all. But he, you know, no one got fine, but he would, you know, you get a stern like talking to Tis Tisk, Tisk if your body fat was like a couple, a couple points higher than it was last week. But that again, that's the measure of like, you have to find data sets that prove like you're working and that that's a, that's a data point. They're like, you take conditioning serious enough to be skinny and thin and a world class athlete, which I, which I respect.

Shaq tells this story about when he's in Miami about how he and Antoine Walker used to basically like oil themselves up as much as possible so that the calipers wouldn't because he was like, definitely above the body fat that rules. And I'm like, it's just such a, this is a grown man. He's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He's like, oh, you know, street coach.

Yeah, it's true. That's a real story.

Yeah. Shane, this is, this is awesome. I think we did pretty well. Like, we could keep going the corporate speech. We might have to do a part two to the, the Brother Badier story.

Well, you know, I've been very, very lucky to have been an amazing, amazing ride. And while I had the irrational confidence that, yeah, like, this is going to happen, I know how lucky I was to stay healthy minus the broken leg of seventh grade, but to have amazing people on my journey that I learned from, that made me better. And I think this podcast is a culmination of all those lessons. And. And that's why I'm excited to be here with my friends to share these lessons and these maxims to help our friends who want to be Glue Guys and gals.

That was awesome. Super fun.

I appreciate you guys.

Thanks for tuning in to Glue Guys. We're on social media at GlueGuyspodcast, and we'll be back next week.