Steve Kerr - Leadership Lessons From a Glue Guy Career - [Glue Guys, EP.49]

There was one dude who was running to the ball, and his name was Stephen Curry. Talk about those. Those two games and those moments for. For you and for the team.

First of all, I refer to him as Stephen Curry.

All right, everyone, we always say we have very special guests, but today we have a very special guest. We have the coach of the Golden State Warriors, Steve Kerr, joining us today. And look, his resume is insane. He has nine championships, five as a player and four as a coach. He also coached the Olympic team to an incredible gold medal. But the thing about Steve that I admire the most actually has nothing to do with basketball. I think he's just one of the most incredible people and leaders I've ever witnessed. And he's someone who I genuinely am proud to call a friend. And I know Shane and Alex feel the same way. And so, you know, when we think about people that embody what Glue Guys is about, you know, Steve Kerr is at the top of the list. So this is a big day for us, and we're excited for you to listen to it.

Obviously, we could talk to you about a number of things. I mean, you've. For. You have nine rings, for crying out loud. Like, you make Tom Brady look like small potatoes.

And have you had that conversation with Brady?

Oh, that's.

Oh, that's great. He's not afraid to show. Brady's not afraid to bring out all the rings. All right, so you're the one guy. You're like the one guy that can.

The only one who can flex on coaches. Phil Jackson, you know, but the.

The thing I. I'm fascinated about, I get asked. I get asked sometimes to talk about, like, resiliency, obviously, about my leg and kind of coming back. And it's funny, people ask me about that. And I always go to mindset, though. Like, everything is kind of mindset. And a lot of times, it's how you deal most commonly with fear, right? Like some form of fear, doubt, you know, again, like imposter syndrome, whatever you want to call it. And I heard this story, and I don't know if it's true that you used to write fi on your shoes.

Yeah. Yeah.

And for me, this so resonated because I've actually told these guys this story, but I don't think I've ever shared this publicly. When I got traded to Kansas City, I'd been in the league eight years, but I still hadn't fulfilled my, like, number one pick kind of thing. It was still. I had not established myself as a starter. And I get to Kansas City. And my quarterback coach and coordinator is. Is Matt Nagy. And Matt was very similar to my age, and he had played quarterback. And I was, like, again, still very much dealing with, like, a lot of doubt. And football is really weird. Like, I wanted so badly to, like, to be that guy, right? Like, to earn that. And I tried so hard, and I was, like, holding on so tight, and I, like, up until that point, like, I would live and die with every rep, right? Like, every single rep. Like, it just, like, this roller coaster, and I could never establish, like, confidence again, like, any kind of rhythm. And so when I get to Kansas City, and Matt Nagy was, like, really instrumental in this again, my quarterback coach, who I would talk to all the time and, like, in my ear on game day. And we. We. He came up with this, like, it, like, literally, like, on the sidelines on a TV timeout right before the opening kickoff, like, the last words that we would say to each other. And it was like a dare, right? It was like a challenge. Like, fucking, man. Like, you've been preparing so hard. Like, just. You got to let go a little bit. And then I heard this. I read this story about you and your shoes, and so, like, I'm fascinated by this. Like, you obviously were to it way before I was like, how did you get there? Like, what led to that, like, mentality for you?

Well, it sounds like we were the same guy. I mean, I. I just, you know, I ground myself into a pulp, you know, with. With the work and. And just, like, living and dying on every shot, every game. I did not handle the full 82 very well. You know, one bad game, and I'm, like, losing sleep. And so, yeah, that's kind of always been, you know, the way I've been built. And I guess it's, you know, it's the old Avery Johnson. My teammate used to say, same thing make you laugh, make you cry, right? And the same thing allowed you and I to succeed and get to where we did. It also held us back, right? And so I think for me, there was just a point in my career where I realized I just. I needed to let go. And it took a long time and, you know, eventually got there. But, you know, it's a. It's a difficult thing to do. It's one. One of the reasons I love Steph Curry so much is that he never has that problem. You know, he lets it rip. He lets it rip every time and never thinks about reproach, repercussions, and. And I spent way too much time doing that.

Can you teach that? I mean, we talk about just my mindset a lot. Like, yeah, is that just something you develop along the way? Can. Can you teach that? Can you instill that into people? Or is that just something you're born with or you don't?

I think a little of each. I. I think you're. You're definitely born with it. Steph's born with it. Michael Jordan was born with it. You know, Kevin Durant was born with it. But you're talking about three of the greatest players of all time, too. So, you know, maybe there's just such a level of confidence with those guys that it just came naturally. But I. I do think there's. There's things you can do. You know, I read a great book recommended by Phil Jackson called the Inner Game of Tennis, and it was. It became my bible in the. In the NBA. Like, I would read it every year. And. And it's a book about the mind, body connection and about how to let yourself go. And. And kind of. Kind of this topic that we're discussing right now, and I give it to my players now today, and with the warriors guys who I think could. Could use it, and it's. It just teaches you techniques that you can use to try to get out of your own way.

Coach, I. I'm so happy you're here because you've taught me a lot without even knowing you've done it. I have this card on my desk that literally I keep everywhere. I don't know if people can see it. It says, bring joy. I keep it on my desk every day. And I. I thought of that because I read that when you started coaching the warriors, you had four values for the team. And I don't remember all of them. I think compassion was one. I think competitiveness was one. And I know joy was one.

Right? Mindfulness.

Mindfulness was the last one.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Shane did his homework today. Good job, Shane.

You know, Shane always. Brother Badier. Always prepared. I remember I found it so inspirational when I saw the word joy, because I think it's hard to, like, remember that you can have fun at work. You can have fun doing the stuff that you're doing because it is serious, the stuff we do. But I remember thinking I'd read the same story that Alex talked about about you writing fi on your shoes. And so it didn't seem like it was always part of you to have, like, joy as one of the main things. And so I was thinking about it, and I'm kind of like, it takes a lot of humility to have one of the values be something that the team represents, maybe rather than something that you naturally bring. So I was curious about that. As like a leader, you know, how did you think about what are the things that are important to you versus what are the things that already exist in the team when setting the values up?

Honestly, those. That joy was a value of mine, it's just I had to figure out how to reconcile joy and competitiveness, you know, and I think that's one of the, one of the tricks, you know, is, you know, understanding that all these things can, can blend together. And, and I always was a very joyful person. You know, I, I just, you know, I, or at least I recognized how powerful joy was. You know, I always played my best when I was, when I was out there flowing and having a great time and, you know, laughing with my teammates and. But the, what, what made it really click with the warriors is that there's never been an athlete who embodies joy more than Steph Curry. So, you know, our, our, our values really aligned right from day one. And I think that that helped us kind of set a culture for the.

Whole group that is awesome. It, literally any organization I'm in ever, the things that I try to bring, even not as the leader, just as a participant, is joy and competitiveness. Those same things, which is because I, I think that they're just the root of everything good than anything I've ever seen, you know, So I really appreciate that.

I can't help but think of the irony, and it's not ironic that to develop that mindset, you're still the guy and you can still hold this over Steph, that you are the highest percentage 3 point shooter in NBA history, right. And that you would think that would be a guy that was incredibly confident, right? Like, and not that you weren't, but like, again, that these are things that we all deal with and that you needed even to develop the triggers and mechanisms to get yourself into that space. And, and again, like, I, I so feel you on the joy. Like, I, I was a joyful guy, but like, depending on what's coming at you, like, it can have an effect on you, right? Like, and again, how do you get yourself to that side of the coin? And I guess, and I think it's, that's the amazing thing about team sports and certainly being a coach is like, to be able to set the tone and that you can, you can get one another to that space, you know, especially momentum and culture. You Know, on that same note, right? Like, we. These guys just hit on a. You know, those core values that you set on when you were a coach and even the warriors coach now, what, 11 years?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think about, you know, obviously, you've earned this, right? But, like, what a challenge that is now, right? Like, 11 years in, how do I. How do I stay fresh? Right? Like, how do I stay current? Steph's been hearing my stuff, my. My game for 11 years, right? Like, what. How can I be new and different? And certainly there's obviously new pieces in the puzzle. But how do you view that challenge now? I think it's fascinating, and not many coaches get this opportunity, right, like, to be this. This far in one team and one roster and, like, continuing, obviously, to evolve.

I mean, first of all, I'm well aware that the reason I'm still here is because Steph Curry's still here. You know, I mean, it's. It's. And I'm not being, you know, modest. I'm just telling the truth. Like, you know, Greg Popovich is one of my best friends and mentors, and every time we sit down to dinner, he holds up his wine glass and he says, here's to Tim Duncan and everyone. Everyone toasts Tim Duncan. And. And I love it because it's genuine. And, you know, he's basically telling us, you know, the only reason I'm. And we are all here is because, like, the lottery fell our way. We got Tim Duncan. Other people didn't. And so that's how I feel about Steph. If I didn't have Steph, I would have been like every other NBA coach and lasted a few years and then gone somewhere else and coached somewhere else. So I'm incredibly lucky to have this partnership with Steph, and he provides this stability and continuity with the organization that just makes everybody's job easier. But as it relates to, you know, keeping up with what's happening out there and evolving, the game is changing constantly. It's just. It's amazing from year to year to see the differences. And I just think it's really important to collaborate with your staff and to encourage young. The young coaches to really bring a lot of ideas to the table. I really lean on my younger coaches. One of the ways the league is so different now is that we're now a developmental league. You know, when Shane, when you came into the league, when I was in the league, we were already developed. You played for Coach K for four years. I played for Lou Olson for four years. We were ready and the other part that was different was the schedule was different. So we'd have like three games in four nights. Then you'd have four days off. So you'd have two great practices. Now the schedule is basically, you play every other day all year long. We don't practice anymore. So we have to develop these 19 year old kids who are coming into the league without much practice time. That has meant an entirely revamped kind of development program. And frankly, I'm not great with that. Like, I'm an older coach, you know, I'm a disciple of Phil and Pop. And so I lean on the young guys to, to really install great development drills, decision making stuff, stuff. Things that I never did or knew how to teach. But the key is to figure that out and let the people who are, who can do those things, let them do it and empower them. And I think that's how you progress.

And for context, for you, Ravi and Alex, you know, when we say four and five, okay, these young guys, they have no idea what four and five really, really means, right? It's four games, right? In five nights, right? And most of the time they are in four different cities or three different cities. And you're getting into town at two or three in the morning and you're waking up and expecting to go o'. Clock. All right? So not. We didn't complain about it. Just, it was just part of the job, right? It was, it was. We call it the rigors. That's the rigors, all right. You just, you just got to get up. But if they try to give these guys today four games of five nights, there would be a revolt. These guys would just refuse to get on the bus. We are not playing four years of five night. That's my old man baddie a shake my fist at the clouds rant. You don't need to comment, coach. You don't need to comment. You know, I don't want to get you in trouble, but I can say it. Playing in the Peach Basket era against.

Plumbers now, the only thing, okay, now Steve, you're going to, I hope, appreciate this. No one respects brother Badier and your career more than, than your fellow glue guys, me and Alex. But we do have to say something, which is last week we were invited to play in Doug McMillan, the CEO of Walmart's weekly basketball game, okay? And it was awesome. We went to Bentonville. It was hot as hell. We went and played with Doug and his, you know, sons and his nephews and his, their nephew's friends and I think we played 15 or 20 games, up to 21, like some insane number. And brother Badier came out of retirement and played okay.

Wow.

But Shane did, after game six, sort of tap out and say, this is the last game. And so, I don't know, Shane, maybe you don't have the stamina that you used to have of four games, you know, I don't know.

You know?

Nope. Guilty.

Yeah, guilty.

Nothing to prove. I've nothing to prove. I've done it all. That's why, Coach, I haven't played in 10 years. The first time I crossed half court since the, the 2014 NBA Finals, Game 5, we lose the Spurs. That was the last time I crossed half court. You know, I'd proven everything I wanted in this game. And so when, when Doug McMillan, who's a friend of the show now, asked me to come out of retirement, I did it for him. And now I'm retired. And I, I was happy to. To say I was undefeated that day, 6 and 0. So I, I, a retired champion, despite what the spurs had to say about it.

I'm just glad you didn't get injured.

Me, too.

That's. That's what I was worried about. You know, you should have seen the.

Text from our wives. That was the entire topic of is everyone okay? That was the only thing that they wanted to know you brought up.

Mindfulness is a core of the warriors, and that's certainly something, I think, that's gained popularity in kind of current day. But a lot of this, I can't help but feel that goes back to what, you know, Phil Jackson. Right. Like, he was, I think, one of the first guys that I can ever remember kind of invoking, you know, meditation and talking about it and breathing and I mean, these were this. In hindsight, I think at that time, this was kind of crazy, right? Like, here's this guy, this little bit of an Eastern influence, and it's the NBA and, you know, Michael Jordan and these championships, and you had the coaches talking about some of these things that weren't mainstream at all. Can you. I, I'm just fascinated by this. Right. Like, that he was just so unique and so himself in an era when that wasn't really in vogue. And I think what you learned from him, you know, that you still take with you today.

I do, yeah. He was so authentic, so genuinely interested in Native American spirituality. He grew up in South Dakota near an Indian reservation. Our film room, where we would watch film every day, was adorned with Native American art and history. He referred to us as his tribe. When. So he would come out there was at the Bulls facility. There was. His office was upstairs, the gym was downstairs. We'd all be shooting around pre practice. He'd come out onto the balcony and bang his drum. And that was. Oh, wow.

That was.

Yeah. And that was our, our signal to come up and watch tape. And, you know, when you're first there, you're like, man, is this guy for real? And it quickly becomes apparent that this is like how he lives his life. You know, the first time you meditate, you know, with the Bulls back then, it's like the new guy always opens his eye, like, what's going on? You know, look at everybody else is. Everybody else settles in and the light, you know, light dims down and the new guys are, you know, like, really, we're doing this. But he was ahead of his time for sure. And. But the key to all of it was it was. It was authentic and genuine and powerful. He was so smart and so dialed into what makes a team go. He's the only, the only guy I've ever run into who built an offense based on a culture. The triangle offense was based on the fact that all five guys touched the ball on every possession. And his feeling was that's what connected the group. The ball moving connected the group. And that's why he wanted to run that offense. And I'd never heard of that before. I never made that connection before. I thought you just ran plays. But he was, he was so advanced and brilliant. Just an amazing coach.

And talk about going to the Bulls. All right, obviously they had a ton of success, so we have a lot of young leaders listening to the show and they're. Some of the feedback we get is they're always, you know, asking how do you incorporate into a. A good team? Or we need to hire someone or bring into some. Someone to disrupt sort of the flow. So take us, take us through your mindset of going to a championship contending team. You know, the first, the first day of school is kind of the feeling I had when I went to Miami Heat, you know.

You know, I thought it was like.

I hope people here, you know, but take us through that mindset.

Well, when I got there, it was right when Michael decided to go play baseball. So I was, I went there expecting to. To play with him and. Or at least be on the team with him. And I was actually trying out with a non guaranteed contract, just trying to keep, you know, my place in the league. Yeah. So it actually was to my benefit in some ways that he went because it opened up a bunch of playing time. It was bad for the rest of the Bulls and the, and their fan base, but it was good for me. No, it was. That's kind of where I reestablished my career is my fifth year, and I was probably on my way out of the league, but, you know, to, to step in there and learn from Phil and play with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright. These champions changed my whole career. And then of course, Michael came back two years later and we started winning, you know, winning again. So it was, you know, what I learned was it's a lot easier to, to develop a role on a, on a great team with great players than on an average team, you know, where everybody's just like kind of confused as to, you know, who's the man and all that stuff. The hierarchy in Chicago allowed me and the offense allowed me to just plug right in.

I grew up in Chicago, as you know, and so, you know, I was a fan of yours as a kid. I remember that, you know, you hitting the shot in 97. I remember all this stuff. I also remember in the parade one, you gave this great speech afterwards, which was awesome about Michael not feeling confident in these kind of moments and, you know, wanting to call you, which is we should put in the show notes. But one of the things that Jordan said in the interview afterwards was like, tonight was the night Steve Kerr earned his wings or something. And I was just thinking about like the standard that he had of like, you have to hit the game winning shot in the NBA Finals to earn that. Was it always like that with him of like that level of standard in order to earn the respect? Because I know you'd had the, some of the things beforehand, but I would love to hear about the standards on the Bulls, trust me.

I was thinking the same thing when he, when he said that I'm in my ninth year and I just now earned my stripes.

So.

But that was, that was his, his way. Like he was, he was not an easy teammate. You know, he drove us so hard and he held everyone to such high standards and he literally drove people, you know, off the team. His theory was if you couldn't stand the heat in practice from him, then you weren't going to be able to stand the heat of the NBA Finals. And so he, he drove us. And back then, you know, we practiced a lot, we scrimmaged a lot. So we had some, some battles. And you had to bring it every day because he brought it and he set an incredible Tone and the beauty of it was as difficult as it could be to be his teammate and to try to live up to all that, you just knew you were going to win because he was on your team. He was that good, that dominant, and you just had to bring your best self every day. And he set that tone.

I have an apocryphal story about you I need to confirm or deny. So we are connected by one of the greatest basketball minds of our time, Chip England, who's a dear friend of both of ours and when I worked. So Chip England is world renowned shooting coach. He's now working with the Oklahoma City Thunder and he's known as the Guru if your shot is broken. And he fixed my shot twice. And he's the guy most responsible for me for having a 13 year NBA career from an individual skills standpoint. But more importantly, he helped me develop an NBA mindset. And one of the stories he told me as a young NBA player was about you. And he said, the squeaky oil. I'm sorry, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Gets the oil in an NBA locker room. That's true. And so you need, you cannot be the punching bag. And you have to let people know that you matter. And so he used you as an example on the great Bulls teams. Big egos, all right, up and down the line, all right? Sometimes they took you for granted. And so in a very calculated way, once a year, all right, you'd be practicing and there'd be a foul and it wouldn't be called, and you would just go ballistic and you would start kicking ball racks and throwing the Gatorade cooler around and swearing and everyone's like, holy crap, this guy is psycho. You can't mess with him. And then you'd be cool and then you'd be fine. But like, after that, after that episode, people just kind of, you know, treated you with kid gloves. They don't set you off, you know, you're the crazy white guy, all right? And that was Chip's story to me that, like, you know, if you feel you're being taken granted, for granted, it's okay to throw a tantrum and get the oil and be the squeaky wheel, because that's how the NBA operates. So I just want to know, was that, was that a Chip England invention or did that really happen?

It's true. It's true. My wife has an expression that she uses for me. Beware the fury of a patient man. And she read it in a book. She read it in a book. She was Reading. You know, we're lying in bed one night, she's reading, and she goes, oh, my God, this is so you. And I said, what? She goes, beware the fury of a patient man. And it was, and I think the book was about Arthur Ashe, so I think Arthur Ash's wife read it and said it to Arthur Ashe. And so I've always, you know, I've always been, you know, pretty stoic on the court and pretty very patient, but I do have a tipping point. And, and I, I can just lose my, I mean, you, you've seen me on the sidelines once, once or twice a year, break a clipboard or whatever. So. No, yeah, so true story, true story. And, but I didn't, I don't even think I realized like, that I was gaining something from it. Like Chip, Chip told me later, he's like, you know, that's good that you do that. You got to let him know that you're, you know, that you're there. And I was like, oh, okay. I was just snapping for the.

Well.

I used it and it helped me. So thank you, thank you for playing the trail. All right, good.

Yeah, I know Shane told us that story early on, and we were very early in, like, this podcast and we loved it because it was this idea of, like, you can't just be one thing, you know, you got to have different notes, you know, as a leader, as a player or whatever. My wife says I have a long fuse and a big explosion. So I think that's a similar, similar vibe of, like, because when I get mad, I'm sort of like, this is your fault. On the other side, like, I don't get mad very often. So if you made me mad, like, this is, you know, I was quiet all this time, so I, I, I, I have a lot of empathy for that.

You mentioned the last shot, Ravi, and like, taking the last shot. And I, like, I'm really fascinated by this concept. In sports and in basketball, it's probably the most iconic, right? Like the buzzer beater, you know, in baseball, it's the bottom of the ninth, two outs, you know, bases loaded kind of thing. And football, the perspective is right as a quarterback, certainly the two minute drill game on the line, like, this is where you become kind of a legend. And the idea of how do you operate in these moments, right? Like, this is a maxed out anxiety, max pressure, and you've been the guy taking these shots. You played with two of the, I mean, Michael Jordan is literally like the, the most iconic here. But steph Curry, obviously, right there. Like, I. And I was lucky enough. Like, I've been with Patrick and, and so much. I, I, I know both Steph and Patrick, and, like, they remind me so much of each other. And again, go back to, like, your. The joy of the moment. Right? Like, those guys relish that moment, whereas I can remember being the guy on the bench, and when it was the end of the game, I'd be like, come on, defense, you know, bail me out. Come on, you know, like, I don't, I don't want to go out there.

I don't want to be out there. Yeah.

And so having been that guy, you know, here you've played and coached with two of the greatest ever, but, like, those guys, like, there's a joy and gratefulness for the situation. And also, I think they're just so comfortable with, like, this is me, and if I miss it, I miss it. Right. Like, they're more comfortable with the miss than I was.

Right.

Like, I was terrified of it. And so I don't know if you could speak on that a little bit. I just think it's so interesting. And, and again, we, we love it, watching it as a spectator, but being that guy is hard.

I never, ever really felt comfortable in that spot. I. What I finally learned to do was to write Fi on my shoe and just say it and, and let it fly with, you know, but the whole key is, like, you just can't think about the repercussion of the result, and, but it's easier said than done. And that's where mindfulness comes in. You know, putting yourself in the moment, not allowing any distraction. And, And I think just to be the, the overall feeling of, like, going out there and just saying, I'm going for it. I'm going for it. But like you said, Steph and Michael, like, they, they couldn't wait for that. You know, they couldn't wait for that moment. Whereas, you know, you and I were, oh, shit, here we go. And we had to. We had to find a way to allow our talent to, to flourish because we could both do it, obviously. I mean, you know, you, you played forever. You had a great career number one pick. I mean, you, you do how to throw the ball, and I could shoot and, you know, like, we could do it. But then it. I think it's a really common thing in the NBA. Like, there's just a handful of players who really feel comfortable, and most of us do not.

What do you, what do you do? I, I think about this, too, as a Coach, what do you think you can do? And as a leader, like, when you're coaching guys that are in these positions, like, I think about the head coach in football, right. Your kicker's getting ready to run out.

Yeah.

To try to make this big field go. What do you say to him? What are the words? Do you tell a joke? Do you, you know, like, you're drawn up the play, you know, for this big moment, whether it's Steph or any. Or maybe another guy, right. That hasn't done it, maybe it's a role player and Steph's decoying, like, what. Is there anything you can do, you know, to try to. To try to help them get into that kind of a mindset?

It.

Not so much in the moment. I think during the season, you know, when you're, when you're not in that moment, it's a better time to just convey, like, hey, I don't care who it is who gets the ball in this situation, we are letting it rip. And, you know, you let the players feel that during the regular season where it's like. And you remind them that the greatest players on earth, you know, they basically make those shots less than 50% of the time, you know, and so you just have to. To remind them that anytime that moment comes, we're. We're letting it rip, you know.

Well, you know, that brings up the. The Paris Olympics, for my money, the last two games against Serbia and France. Those are the two greatest games I've ever witnessed. And I mean, just for just with everything that was on the line for. For USA Basketball, for the. Everything on the line for. For Steph and LeBron and everybody team and the drama, you couldn't. You couldn't script that any better. And, you know, I. I had to laugh because I was very proud that I was always the inbounds passer at the end of games, right? And you. You sort of know, like, who really, really wants the ball by how.

How.

How they. How they. How they break towards the ball to get open. And, you know, you know, the guys that, you know, kind of get hooked, you know, and say, oh, I couldn't get open. I couldn't get. You know, and there was one dude. There was one dude who was running to the ball, and his name was Stefan Lamont Curry at that game. And that's what struck me about those games, that he was. He was running to the ball in the most stressful situation that I seen in basketball that I really can ever remember. He was just on a different plane. And you know, you might get numb to it because you see it every single day, you know, but I don't think you get numb to it, but it's just, it's. You just have to pitch yourself when you watch a performance like that on that stage, knowing the stakes at hand, knowing everything that went into this. I mean, talk about those, those two games and those moments for you and for the team.

First of all, I refer to him as Stephen motherfucking Curry because that's, you know, that's the first thing that comes to mind when, when you see him do this stuff. It's like, holy. I mean, nobody has that mindset. Nobody, you know, including on, like you said, on a team of some of the all time greats, like they were all deferring to him, you know, and he was chasing the ball and. But it's the most amazing mindset that I've ever seen. Michael had a similar mindset, but Michael's mindset appeared to be more out of a desire to kill the opponent, to, you know, to, to just stick the knife in and twist. And Steph's is more the joy of the act of shooting a ball, you know, and that's what makes it so beautiful to watch Steph, it's like he's, he's an artist out there and he loves what he does so much. And there's this flow and this grace and beauty combined with this incredible competitive desire and confidence to just take every shot and, and, and not worry about the repercussions. So the, yeah, the, the two games, the Serbia game was the greatest basketball game I've ever been involved with. We were lucky to win, but we had to make every play. And our guys did it down the stretch. It was incredible. And the France game was, was about Steph and finishing the game with those four threes in the last couple minutes and just iconic and incredible to be, be part of that and have that memory.

Everyone will remember exactly where they were when he hit the night night, when he hit those shots. I mean, it's crazy. Like the other thing in, in quarter gold, I think they had the mic on when you hugged him. And I think you said, you're the finest human being I've ever had the pleasure to be around or something. Right? And I mean, like, what an incredible compliment. You think about what those words mean. Think about the people you've been around in your life. Like, and it's so incredible to hear that. And then I was at Iggy's retirement or Iggy's jersey retirement and the speech that Steph gave, it was one of the best speeches I've ever heard in any setting of my life. Like, truly, like. And it was the amount of preparation, the amount of personalization. It was. You could kind of see, like, the rest of us see him. He's this basketball player. He's an amazing person. But you. You see him on the court. Right. That was one of the times I got to see him celebrate a friend. And somehow he knew the right words to say that were the most meaningful things to say to someone. And the gift he gave Andre that day was something that I think was. It was genuinely beautiful. And so I got, like, a tiny hint of some of the things that you see every day in this guy.

Yeah, it's just his emotional intelligence, his genuine love for people, his compassion, his awareness of his power as a person without trying to gain from it, you know, but by trying to give and to make people happy and comfortable knowing. Knowing full well that how much he impacts people. It's. Yeah, he's. He's. He's an amazing human being. I did have to qualify it with my family when I got home. You know, I meant. I meant he's the best human being after you guys.

Yeah, of course.

And my mom and.

Being mic'd up.

Yeah.

One of my.

That's right.

One of my. Actually things that sticks with me the most from those Olympics, I think, is after the finals, and it's you with the. All the coaches having a beer.

Yeah.

Right on the steps, I think.

Yeah.

And I'm so. Again, we've been texting a bunch about this. You know, Scotty Scheffler, just a few weeks ago, before the British Open, kind of went on this long, really honest idea of, like, again, when you win these things, what does it mean to you? And you put in so much time and you invest so much time in him. I. I think, really being introspective at this about that. Right. About winning and inputs versus outputs. And again, he got a lot of flack for this from different people. But you. You've been somebody that's been to the. You've been to the summit a lot of times, right? Like, I. You know, I cannot relate, but, like, I. I'm just interested in your thoughts on this. Right? Like, here's this moment again. And after, like, how cool it was to see you and the coaches sharing this. Right? Like, a little. A ton of pressure on you guys, and you achieve this amazing thing, and yet it's this quiet, personal moment. Right? Together. Yeah. And Again, it. They are fleeting. Right. Because so often it is on to the next. And so just your thoughts on that?

Well, I love Scotty's comments. And then, of course, he went out and won. I know, I know.

Yeah.

It's so awesome. But it reminded me of a great moment we had with Roger Federer. We played in China, I think it was 2018 maybe, or 17. And he was in town in Shanghai to play in the Shanghai Masters Tennis tournament. And we connected with him somehow, and I invited him to come to our locker room, and he came and he talked to all the guys, and Draymond asked him in front of the whole group, he said, how do you sustain excellence? You've been doing this for 20 years. And at that time, he was still winning majors. And I think everybody was expecting an answer, like, well, I work so hard, and I do this and I do that. But his answer was very Scotty Scheffler. Like, he said, I love my life. He goes, I wake up every morning, I cook breakfast for my kids, then I take them to school, and then I drop them off, and then I go practice tennis for, like, two hours. And I've got a great routine now that I've figured out where I can get all my work in in a really joyful way without killing my body, but, you know, keeps me in great shape, ready for the next tournament. Then I go home, and I love to cook, so I cook my kids a dinner, and then, you know, we've hang around a little bit and everybody goes to bed, and I put my head on the pillow and I go, that was a great day. He goes, so I've been doing that for 20 years, and that works for me. And it was like, yes, yes. That's. That's it right there. Like, he's figured it out. And I think a lot of people who have amazing success never actually have that realization because they're continuing to push forward and grind. And. And so it's that. That. That work, life, balance and recognizing what's really important and. And finding joy and ease in your life with your family. That's what it's all about.

Yeah. I don't think it's ironic that he won that week, by the way. Right.

Yeah.

I think for everybody out there, it's like, huh, Maybe he's on to something. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, and.

And Scheffler, like, that's. That was the point to me, you know, it's like, yeah, like he's figured it out and good for him, and. And that there's there's something very liberating about that, too. You know, like, you can lose and, you know, you're going to put your head on the pillow and still have a good night because of your family and your. What? You know, you're doing the thing you enjoy, and it's pretty cool.

You realize that the journey is more than just the destination. Right? Like, there is you. You kind of have to look back and say, have we had a good journey and enjoy it along the way. Is that something. When did that feeling kind of show up for you? When did you realize that it's not just about the result at the end, but it is more about, you know, the work that you're doing along the way?

Well, it definitely helped that I was on the bulls and won three championships. You know, it's like, man, the journey and the. And the destination were funny mind rings later.

Maybe it's easy to be reflective.

Yeah, right, right. But no, it was. This was a Phil Jackson quote that he used frequently. The journey is the reward. And it's. It's true. It's a Buddhist saying. And. And he. He really believed in it. And. And, you know, when he. When he would tell us that, you know, read. You know, read from a book or something to that effect, it just made so much sense. And. And so Phil was really the guy, the first coach I had who ever really kind of phrased it that way.

When I worked at a startup, I was like, it was the first time I was ever really accountable. I'd worked at a big company beforehand, and I was crazy stressed, which is very unusual for me because I'm generally a pretty, I don't know, happy or joyful guy. And someone told me about this poem called Ithaca. And I don't know if you guys have read it, but if you haven't read it, you should read it. It's amazing, but it's exactly this. The whole point is the journey is the reward. And I would literally read it every morning because it was the only thing that brought me back to. At some point, I'm going to look back and say, man, this was awesome. However it turns out, however this company turns out, I will look back on this time. I got to lead these people or be one of the leaders and all that. And I literally. I have this big print out of it now. I read it every day when I was there, and it's so true. I look back on that and it was so good. Even though it happened to work, it was. It was like that time. That's like the best time I've ever had on career wise. And, but, but I, I think about it because I remember exactly when like I sort of realized some version of the journey is the reward.

Yeah, Robbie, how do you, how do you get that message? And, and coach, how do you, how do you get that message to non believers? Like, you know, you, you laugh that, you know, you won three championships and so that message is much more palatable. And yeah, of course, yeah, you guys, some of the feedback we get is like, yeah, but like my situation is different. So how do you get the non believer of that statement to buy in who haven't won, who haven't tasted the champagne, who, who, you know, we can all stand at the mountaintop now say, yeah, of course it was about the improvement, it was about the losses. But like, we look almost like elitist because we've, we've made our dream. So what's your advice to the, the person that hasn't, hasn't experienced that yet.

To believe that, you know, as it relates to my players, you know, we, we try to make a great connection and bond, you know, between the players and we bring the families, you know, aboard all the time. We, we just, I think it comes with perspective. You know, I think if you can, can help people with perspective and, and, and teach them to really appreciate each day, then I think it's easier. But I also think it comes from parenting. You know, it comes from our, our upbringing and, and you know, what, what was your childhood like?

What?

You know, I, I think as a coach, as, as, you know, someone advising people, I can, I can talk about perspective. I can, you know, I can talk about how lucky we are to be in the NBA and play in the NBA regardless of what happens. We could be children in Gaza who are starving. We could be soldiers in the Ukraine who are dying every day. I mean, it's like when you think about how lucky we are in this country, despite our flaws, we have a great country filled with opportunity. And so I think that would be my answer is just, can you offer perspective and remind people just how it's really the simple things that are gratifying family and work and finding joy in everything that you do.

My answer is not as good as coaches, but I think, well, my dad has this good saying which is like, you can't learn someone else's lessons for them. I think about that all the time, which is like, I can't teach somebody something they're not ready to learn in that sense. Right. Like, there is some of this that youth is wasted on the young. You kind of have to see it. I think the thing that helps me, Shane, sometimes is I actually tell people stories from when Instacart went public. There was a set of people that were there early on and there was a set of people that were there much later. And all of us were there at the ipo, you know. And one of the things that was very interesting is some of the people that got to experience the success, you know, the, the company going public. One of those people came up to me. He was. This person was a newer person at the company and he came up to me and he said, you know, I'm jealous of the hugs that you have with some of the early people. What do you mean? And he's like, there's just so much in there when you guys are sitting there and you hug because. And it's like, it's obvious that you like didn't know this was ever going to happen and you know, any of that. And he's sort of like, I don't have that with these people because we kind of knew it was going to happen. And I tell people that now. I'm like, man, I'll tell you, like, people are jealous of the pain that we had. Like, people are jealous of the fact that it was hard. Like, the only reason those hugs are meaningful seems like, man, this was hard. And so I tell him, like that day, the thing that someone was jealous of was not like the success, it was the people that had the most kind of relative work wise pain. And I was like, I don't know, that was very affecting to me. And like, you know, do whatever you will with that information. But that to me was very striking, Shane.

At least how I view this is, I think actually more than anything. Like, listen, obviously you have to have the message that you're selling, right? Like, so perspective, joy, mindfulness, like all these things we've said, like talked about, but more than any of the words, like, you have to live it, I think, right? And so like Phil Jackson could, could talk about mindfulness. But like, it was very evident from Steve that like, listen, this guy lived it, right? Like this was like every from where he grew up, the books he read, how he decorated the room, right? Like this is how he lived his life and his example and modeling that behavior is by far the most powerful thing that I think you can do. And, and I don't think it's any different on mentorship, right? Like it's your example, I think, and how you go about Attacking these problems and difficult things that I think has the most profound effect. And I think that kind of gets me to this question, coach, is like, you ended up playing 15 years in the NBA, right? Like you. And from my understanding, you actually didn't start that many games like through your career. And so you had all these, these different roles, whether you're the first guy off the bench like, or you did start, or again like down further on the bench. And again, the show is called Glue Guys, right. Like, it's a term that I think most identifies to basketball.

Right.

When people use it. And so often these are the guys that again, we celebrate that make the difference.

Right.

They are the ones that make the difference. And I think I'm just so interested on how you view that, like obviously having been in as a player, now as a coach, the role of those guys that, that maybe aren't the chefs of the world. Yeah, they aren't the Michaels of the.

World, the Shane Batties of the world. I mean, no, I mean, Shane was the ultimate glue guy. And I believe I started 17 games in my career. All right, I may be off by one or two, but, you know, I think I played 900 and something games and I started 17 of them. So yeah, I was never, never like a, you know, major player, but frequently a role player. Maybe half of those 15 years I was like a 20 minute a night guy and the other half I didn't play at all. So I actually realized that you could make a career out of being a really good 12th man. You know, like there's a lot of guys in the league who can't take it. They can't deal with not playing and still bring it and, and be a, be an important part because they just don't feel important. And I realized, oh, wait a second, like, this is my ticket to the NBA, really. Like, I can, I can buy myself another five, six years just by being a good pro. And I think that's a, you know, when you do that, when you approach it that way, inevitably you're going to have your moments too where, you know, you have a chance to make an impact. And if you handle yourself the right way, you're more likely to succeed when that moment comes, you know, Whereas if you're on the end of the bench, you know, bitching and moaning, you can't be a glue guy if you're bitching and moaning, you know, So I just think there's, there's a way about certain players and I've seen a lot of them with the warriors, where it's just guys who don't play a whole lot, and they're so important to the fabric of it. And it's important as a coach for me to let them know how valuable they are despite the fact they're not playing. So I want to turn it back to you, Alex, real quick, because I think Andy Reid is amazing. I've never met him. I watch him from afar. He strikes me as somebody who does this, what we're talking about, like, really make his players feel valuable. Is that. Is that true?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I've told this guy, like, Andy, to me, would have been the world's greatest high school gym coach, right? Like, this is a guy that loves teaching so much. Like, he loves teaching every single person on the team, like, it doesn't matter. Has a nickname, right? Like, and he's given them the nickname. He's bestowed it upon him. It comes from a story again. And, like, that can seem like such a small thing, but, like, again, it's yours, right? He cares about you. And this is the head coach, right? Like, one of the greatest coaches of all time. And he cares enough about you, right, like, that he's giving you his own nickname, and he uses it all the time. That's, like, once you got it, it's yours. Kind of becomes yours. And what did he call you, by the way? Oh, I mean, by, like, there were so many different things. That's actually a great question. I. I don't.

I mean, you didn't give me Dollar Bill.

Yeah, Dollar Bill thankfully, had left at that point, but when he'd be installing the offense, he would coach. I. I kid you not. I mean, he obviously coaches quarterbacks all the time, but he would coach the running backs. He would coach Travis Kelsey at tight end. He would coach Tyreek Hill on how to get out of a break. He played line, so he's definitely coaching the lineman. Like, he just had this amazing knack to really be able to simplify things and, like, break things down, down. And again, he loved it, right? Like, and then most importantly, like, he loved every day. Like, it was his favorite thing to do. Install on a Wednesday, right? And to be out on the grass at practice. And when your head coach loves what he does. And I, this sounds. I. This can sound so simple to, like, anybody listening. I can't tell you how many miserable coaches I played for. Miserable human beings, like, hated their life, hated their home life. Like, again, like, just the most negative people, right? Like, doing this. And again, when you play under that, like, it's horrible. It, like, it sucks. And again, to play for a guy that win or lose again, like, just didn't ride the roller coaster. I mean, we were one in five. One year. One in five. Like, the sky is falling. You're gonna get fired. Like, most coaches just start firing people, and it's like, it is an implosion, and it was him coming in and being like, I got to be a little better. We all got to be a little better. We don't need to do anything crazy. Right? And, like, then we slowly rattled off 11 wins and won a playoff game. Like, it was just insane.

Right?

Had never been done. And, like, it doesn't happen without him at the. At the helm.

Right.

And just so cool.

Yeah. What did you learn from. From Cole Jolson? You know, for those who don't know, Steve played for one of the classiest men in basketball. Coach Lou Dolson, University of Arizona, and tremendous coach, a ton of success, but really was respected by. By all. So we'd love to hear what you took away from Cole Jolson.

He took over the program when it was rock bottom. The team was 4 and 24 the year before, and he came in, and we were in the final four my senior year. So I came in his first year as a freshman, and so. And I red shirted because of injury one year. So five years later, we're in the final four. So I would literally watched him build something from the ground up, and I saw how he did it. It was just, you put in the work every single day, and you stay consistent, and you keep going and going and going, and you bring energy and you bring expertise and. And authority. You know, like, he. He kind of reminded me of my dad. Like, I. I, you know, he. I knew how much he loved me, but I desperately did not want to disappoint him. I was a little afraid, and he was an amazing mentor to all of us.

When you got asked to be the Olympic coach, was there any part of you that was not only enthusiastic, but maybe a little nervous because, you know, these games are tighter and tighter and tighter than they've ever been, or at least they've been in recent memory. And, you know, we can lose, right? Like, and it would be right, you know, to lose, you know, and, you know, you already are a champion so many times over. Was it obvious of, like, oh, my God, this is opportunity of a lifetime. I gotta do it? Or was there any part of you that was, like, a little, I don't know, nervous about taking on that responsibility?

Oh, There's a huge part of me that was nervous about it, but that was. That was way better than the thought of. Wow. They asked me to be the Olympic coach, and I said no. What a pussy.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, like, really? Yeah.

Yeah. So, no, I. I think there's an incredible responsibility that I. I spoke with Coach K about it. He was really helpful. Pop. You know, I was with Pop in Tokyo as an assistant, so both guys were really helpful to prepare me for that dynamic. And ultimately, what makes USA Basketball so great is the leadership within the group. Sean Ford is one of the outstanding people I've ever met. Grant Hill, grad. Hill's amazing, as you guys know. Jim Tooley, who's the president there, like, they're so supportive and collaborative that from day one, you never feel like, oh, shit, it's on me. Even though you're the head coach and, you know, it is. You really feel like it's the group. It's like the group is in it together. And that's. That's. They're an amazing organization. And every coach who's ever been through there, it just raves about USA Basketball for a good reason.

It just struck me when you talked about we could lose. You know, it brings me back to, like, why the journey is important is because every champion has gone through the fire and had a line of demarcation that they know they're vulnerable. They see their own mortality in whatever journey they're on. And you sort of come through that moment, whether it's, you know, down 3:1 in the finals or, you know, a tight game against Serbia. You're looking around saying, this, this could be it. This could be it. And when you come through it, it's like, oh, man, there's nothing better. And that's why it's important. It's not necessarily like that you won. It's that you faced the line. You faced the precipice of the abyss of losing, of being, you know, and also ran in the history books. And you came through it.

Right.

So I. Thinking about what we talked about before, that, that. That sticks out. I remember the times when it was. It was on the line for us more than I remember actually cutting down the nets. Right. That's what is important to me on. On the journey.

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And that. I mean, it's the whole point of competition. You know, you're putting yourself out there, you're testing yourself. You're. You know, you're thinking about all your frailties and, you know, the Stuff we talked about right from the beginning, Alex, like, can I really do this? How am I going to get comfortable in this moment? And then when you actually put yourself on the line, you realize, like, I'm, you know, I got more to me than I thought I did, you know, and you have to overcome fears in life in a lot of different areas, but competition brings out that dynamic in a way that very, very few other things can, I think. And you're right, Shane. That's the. That's the reward when you face that challenge. And you. You don't necessarily have to win, either.

You.

But you got to bring it. You got to. You just got to bring it and let loose and allow yourself to. To play.

You know, one of the things coach, you've been public about is sort of like the relationship you had with Bob Myers and now with Mike, you know, and you at one point were a gm, right? And just sort of like, learning from that experience of what was it like to be the GM and be, you know, work with the head coach, and then now be the head coach and work with the gm. What are some of the things that you've learned in that experience? And, like, how. What makes it work? What makes it a good one and a great one, like the ones you've had?

Yeah. I mean, a good partnership is not only support, but challenging each other. Both Bob and Mike. And I know Shane, you know Mike well, being teammates with him at Duke, but they have a really special roommate.

If you ever needed the dirt, I got the dirt.

If you look over, Patty's right.

It's very messy. Very messy.

I can hear, you know.

Oh, yeah, Right there. Right behind me. Yeah.

Oh, there he is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my best friend.

Hug.

I don't really want to.

I love him.

I don't really want to Talk about the 2001 NCAA Championship Game when you beat my Wildcats and my kid. Three threes in the second half. But, no, I think. I think a great partnership includes challenging each other, and the only way you can do that is if you establish a relationship of trust and compassion. And, you know, I think the best leaders phrase things really well. You know, it's. Pop was the master of difficulty conversations, the absolute master. And he just had a way of challenging you without insulting you, without putting you on your heels. It was more a collaborative. Hey, we, you know, you got to do this because this is what we're trying to accomplish, you know, And I think Mike and Bob both share that. So, you know, Mike. Mike is great in terms of, like, I'll call. We talk every single day. And I'll call him. I'll just say, what. What'd you think last night? And we have such a good relationship now that he can. He can say, like, have you thought about this? Like, what. What if she did this instead of doing that? And. And I'm not offended by it because I know he's. He's in the fight with me.

You mentioned Pop there. And obviously one of his strengths of, like, having a difficult situation, but, like, he is a guy that we celebrate. Right. Just. Just like yourself. And I'm just so interested, obviously, having been around him for so long, like, his superpower. Right. Like, what. What made him one of the greatest coaches ever.

Yeah. It was his connection. His ability to connect with every single guy on the roster through humor, through compassion, through joy, through competitive fire. He just had an amazing way about him, the way he would challenge. I'll tell you a quick story. I was taken out of the rotation one year, and I started sitting on the floor. Shane, you know this. Like, when you start sitting on the floor, it's a little bit of an fu to the coach. You know, like, instead of sitting on the bench with the rest of the guys, you kind of lounge on the floor. And, you know, NBA players will do that occasionally. Some, you know, some guys may. May have a bad back or something, but, you know, a lot of guys are just pouting. And so I pulled that one and, you know, for a couple games, and he pulled me aside and he goes, hey, I see you on the floor. That's not who you are. Like, the reason we signed you is because you're a pro and you're going to give the best to our team, and we're going to be better because of your presence. You're not the guy to sit on the floor. And I just dropped my head. I was like, God damn it. You're exactly right. Oh, my God. But honestly, a lot of coaches would have just let that go and, like, gone back to the coaches meeting and gone like, that guy, man, what's he doing? But he just, like, he. He just knew how to handle all the difficult conversations. So he was constantly putting out fires, you know, all season long.

As a result, he could coach you harder. Right? So he got more out of you because he got everything out of you.

Right.

If a lesser relationship, you can't coach people hard, but he coached you hard because you knew he cared. Right?

Well, and players want the truth. Ultimately, they do. But the truth has to be told in the right way. And it's not necessarily, like, diplomatic. It's not necessarily this or that. It's just like a good coach, I think, understands how to deliver that message in the right time.

You know, the crazy thing is, I think actually having those difficult, like, uncomfortable conversations, like, you actually so often afterward are like, closer. Like, there is more trust. Yeah, right.

Like, sure.

And it's weird because if you don't have the conversation and you kind of gloss over it, there is a disconnect then. Right. Like, this hasn't been addressed. And it's so. It's so weird that the uncomfortable can actually, like, lead to trust.

Yeah.

Like, you know, it's just because now it's a real. It's a real relationship, you know.

The coolest Pop story I heard again from Chip England. If your wife was on the trip and he knew about it, he would say, hey, you know, we're going to New York. You really should check out this restaurant. You know, it's Pop. You know, those. All the best places, all the best wine. He's like, all right, Pop. You know, And Pop was like, I'll handle it. I'll handle it. He was like a concierge. So he would set up the dinner, right. For you and your wife in New York City, night before the game. And when the check came, the. The server would say, coach Popovich started taking care of it.

That's right. Yep. Yeah, right. He would do that.

That first class.

He would do that all the time. If you were. If you happen to be in the same restaurant as him, it was automatic. He would just, you know, he'd pick up the tab and the waiter would come over and say, he, you know, your coach has the. Has the meal. So we actually had a great moment with him. Danny Ferry was one of my good friends. We were teammates in San Antonio and another Dukie. So he and I went. Went out to dinner one night. We went to the concierge. We were in Seattle, and we go. We go to the concierge and say, hey, do you have any suggestions for dinner? And she says, yeah, there's a great seafood place. In fact, your coach is going there tonight. So Danny and I look at each other like, free meal. Free meal. So we actually. We timed it. We said, what time is our coach going to be there? And she said, eight o'. Clock. We said, all right, we're going to make a 7 o' clock reservation. We go, we eat. We tell the waiter, we're not dining and dashing. Our coach is going to take care of this. And the waiter's like, okay, no problem. So we go down at 8 o' clock to the front of the restaurant. We've finished, we've got the bill. And it was perfect because there was a revolving door. And Pop walks through the revolving door with a few of his coaches. And Danny hands him the bill and goes, you're late. We got a movie to catch. Catch. And Pop. Pop loved it. You know, I mean, he love. He loved it because, like, that's just, you know, that's what. That's what being on a team is all about, right? You looked after each other. You make fun of each other. You, you know, you do crazy stuff. And that was fun.

You know, the show is called Glue Guys. We always close with the question where we ask people, who are the glue guys? Guys, who are the glue people in your life?

Well, my wife is. She. She runs the family and keeps us all together. Margo, she's. We've been together since sophomore year at Arizona, and we've got three kids, two grandkids. She's been, you know, an NBA wife for 35 years, you know, and it's not easy. And so she's. She's definitely my. My glue guy. My glue G.

It.