The Competitor's Paradox - [Glue Guys, EP.51]

What is the point? You're like, why do I want to win this tournament so bad? That's something that I wrestle with on a daily basis. Because if I win, it's going to be awesome for about two minutes, and then we're going to get to the next week and it's going to be like, hey, you won two majors this year. How important is it for you to win the FedEx cup playoffs? And it's just like, we're back here again. You know, at the end of the day, sometimes I just don't understand the point.

Alex, why don't you set up your idea of us talking about good old Scotty?

We've been texting about this for weeks. I mean, this, you know, obviously was what I think it was the media day before the British Open. Yeah, I don't think it's ironic that he won given his state of mind. He kind of just goes on and on about things. I think that he was wrestling with and is wrestling with. Right. Like, and, and literally the phrase that he repeats, you know, numerous times is, what's the point?

You know?

You know, what's the point? What's the point? And I think you can see a guy thinking about his purpose, you know, what is his purpose? Here he is, this professional golfer. He's the number one ranked golfer in the world. He's freaking won I don't know how many times in the last two years. Twelve times, I think, in the last two years. You know, he's. He's, you know, quickly here ascending into a bucket, a Tiger esque, you know, bucket of comparisons, which is insane. And it's funny, those two, to, to. To compare those two because they seem from a mental perspective, right. Like to be from very different places. Right. Like Scotty talking about it. It's not. This isn't who he is. This isn't what's in his heart. He's not trying to, you know, he says it like, I'm not here to.

Inspire somebody else to be the best player in the world, because what's the point? You know, this is not a fulfilling life.

I'm not trying to inspire the next great golfer in the world. Right. Like, that's not his thing. And how short lived the sweetness of these victories is. I mean, Tom Brady had a rebuttal to this. Right. Because in some ways he disagreed. I'm with it. And so, yeah, it'd be fun to kind of dish it out.

What do you think, Shane? What'd you think about it when you heard it?

I wrote I wrote a blog on this. I was inspired, I was inspired by Scotty Shuffler and his, his raw authenticity, his, his vulnerability, which is so rare. It's the most rarest thing, especially in this world where everything is curated. Everything is curated. And very few things, especially in sports, aside from the actual competition, is authentic, real, raw. And what we saw from Scotty Scheffler, who by the way, is, is a pretty close off, private person. You know, we know about his wife Meredith and his, his, his newborn child, but like, you don't know much more about him other than that he plays at Royal Oaks and, and just kind of plays golf. You know, we don't know his, his hobbies. We don't know his dreams. We don't. And so, so for him to come out at a very like, weird time, like right before one of the most important tournaments of, of the year, one that he hadn't won before. All right, you understand if like, you know, you're up, you up there one multiple and you're like, ah, you know what, what's the point? He hadn't won one yet. Obviously he wants to do what Rory did this year and win the Grand Slam, so he has to win the Open Championship. Right? So it, it was awesome and it was shocking. It just, it was shocking as an athlete to, to, for someone to, to, to, to say that it's, it's all contextual too. He's the number one golfer in the world and has been for the last, you know, three years. It's a little bit different if the 50th ranked golfer comes out and says that. Oppressor. Right. You know, and so I, I, I want to give Scotty absolute credit and I love it and I wrote a, you know, a blog about it. But when it comes from Scotty, it means a little bit something different and a little, maybe something a little bit more, and you give him more credit than if the number 25th or 30th golfer or the golfer that misses the Ryder cup says it. Right? But I, I just, I love the authenticity. I love the rawness, I love the realness. And then he back it up, which is like baller, absolutely ballerina. You know, he probably, if he goes out and he lays an egg, you know, the, the tabloids, the, the rags in the UK read, you know, Scheffler doesn't want it. You know, see, look, look, look. You know, he talked trash about our tournament and he went out and he laid an egg. See, he doesn't want it enough, but he backed it up. And so to the victors go to spoils, man. The winners read the history book. So I, I thought it was just an awesome display of confidence, vulnerability, of rawness and, and, and I got a.

Lot here, don't you think? The point is that he wasn't the number one player in the world and he's saying this and that. In some ways I view it as his superpower. Like to go to your example, I think you could go, you could pull every golfer that's, you know, 50th ranked golfer to 100 and they would tell you they'd cut off their left leg to have what Scotty has, right. Like they've been trying at this their entire life. It means everything to them. And I actually think the point of the entire thing is that this is his superpower, right. Especially in golf, which is this not. It's not a reactive thing, right. Like, it's not like something you and I did, Shane, that again, you can kind of lose yourself in the game and just playing and hustling or like golf is like the ultimate mental sport. I mean it's five, six hour rounds, right? Lots of downtime, lots of time in your head and you can imagine. Well, I mean, I. Right. Standing over a big moment, a big putt, a big shot, that motivation of wanting it so bad actually works against you. Right. And I think Scotty being so honest and vulnerable in the sense that this isn't, doesn't define who I am. Right. Like he says it right? Like the moment that golf interferes with him becoming a husband or a father, he's like, I'm gone. Like, that's not, this isn't who I am. This doesn't fulfill my heart. And it was really interesting because I mean, obviously he's talking about, he loves golf, right? He loves every day, right. He loves the ability, like he gets to the inputs, you know, that we always talk about. Those are things that he, he says he likes. But he really grapples with the fact that winning is so fleeting. I took it as, again, you could imagine in these big moments which we've seen again, like I, I think he just won again. He like the last 10 times, he's at a 54 hole lead, he's closed it because his ability to like let go, I think, right. Like standing over a huge putt, like it doesn't define him, you know what I'm saying? And I actually think that that is a superpower in that moment. Whereas, like it's the end of the world. I live and die with that putt. Like for me, when it means when we're playing for 20 bucks. But like, here he is playing for the British Open and he has this ability to let go.

My question for Ravi, who grew up in the, in the Chicagoland area, you grew up with the, the, the antithesis of this press conference in Michael Jordan.

Yep.

Okay. And. And is probably why people reacted so harshly to Scotty Scheffler's presser, because the. The alpha of all alphas in terms of champion, in terms of athlete, in terms of like, maleness is Michael Jordan. So talk about growing up and like that, that. That's your guy. Right? And that's your, that's your idea of like, how you win a championship is, is scorched earth. It's burned the ships.

Right.

So what's your reaction when you hear Scheffler?

Well, I think. Yeah, Shane, I think you hit the nail on the head as, like, why it's so jarring to hear Scheffler talk like that. Because I think that many of us, certainly me, like, I, I think from a distance, you sort of wonder if, like, in order to be amazing as an athlete and truly outstanding like Jordan, if you sort of have to give up everything else in your life and put this ahead of everything else in your life. And I think that, like, it's like the Wright Thompson thing that he said to us on the episode of, like, what MJ has said to him of, like, everything that made me amazing at the thing I did, that made me like who I was is now preventing me from, like, having a, you know, a better life later, like, being a good husband, being a friend, whatever. So I think you almost think that it has to have this trade off. And it's so interesting to me because I agree with you of, like, what Scotty's defining is something so different. So my reaction, honestly, I would say I found it inspirational because I think that if it requires Jordan, like, giving up everything else in your life to be excellent or best at something you're doing, that sucks because I think we all want to be good husbands, good dads, good friends, in addition to being great at our jobs. Scotty's, I think, lays out a different trade off, which we should talk about. But I found it to be like, awesome inspirational. And I guess my read on it was one like, this theme of, like, what I do is not who I am. Golf is what I do. It's not who I am. I think most people that say that, honestly, they sometimes not most. Some People that say that, I think they use that as an excuse to not work hard at the thing that they do. Do you see what I'm saying? It's like an explanation for mediocrity, which is like, well, I don't really care about it. It's like. It's like a defense mechanism to not be great. You know what I'm saying? And I think Scotty's thing that's so interesting is like, no, no, no, look, I'm still practicing 10 hours a day or whatever he practices. I'm still amazing at this, but, like, it is not who I am. And then I think the other thing that he lays out is like, and it's not as good as you guys think it is. Who don't play.

Why do I want to win this golf tournament so badly? Why do I want to win the Open Championship so badly? I don't know. Because if I win, it's going to be awesome for about two minutes.

It's not like I go around feeling like I'm amazing after the British Open champion or after winning a tournament. It feels good for two minutes. Then it's like, whatever. Like, it's like the Kobe picture where he's, like, sitting there with his hand holding the trophy, like, with his hand on his chin after the championship. It doesn't last that long. So, Shane, to answer your question, one, I found inspirational because you, like, don't necessarily. There are, like, multiple paths to nirvana. Number two, this idea of what I do is not who I am, but not using it as an excuse or a defense mechanism for mediocrity. Like, it's cool to be excellent and still say that. And then three, I don't know why I have to compete so hard. I do. It's part of me. But the glory is fleeting. I took that to mean that, like, look, man, you better like your journey because each destination doesn't really last that long. And for all those things, I thought it was pretty sick. And then it's easy for me to say this because I don't know Tom Brady at all. But I did think, just going back, like, I thought it was kind of rich that Brady had a comment about this, given he's famously not necessarily known as having, like, the best prioritization with his family and his, you know, career, you know, and for him to kind of come out later and be like, well, I don't know if Scotty knows what he's talking about. I'm like, I don't know. Scotty seems like he's Got this pretty well handled. You know, like, let's let Scotty have his.

His day here really had a profound impact on me. I don't even know if we've ever discussed this, like, when you become a father. Right. Like, I, I think for me it was like the ultimate, like, hold the mirror up to yourself kind of thing. Right. And like, and I know what my dad means to me and has meant to me, like the example he set and sets. Right. And it was a big moment in my life when I had my son for the first time. And it was like, it really was a wake up call for me of, like to stop living in my fears. I can't let my son see me. This example, right? And amongst with other things that we've talked a lot about, and Scotty talks a lot about fatherhood. All right. And he is a new father. It also spurred the Tom Brady response is fatherhood. Right? And you said it like this idea of what makes a good father. And Tom's, you know, Tom's rebuttal is, is exactly that, that you can do both. Right. And then actually my example of hard work and passion and, and excellence is a great example for my kids, which I don't disagree with.

Yeah.

Either.

That's fine. It's just more like it felt like just let Scotty have his moment. Like, why? You know, like, that was my point. It's not that I think totally.

No, no. But I, I do think it's an interesting thing. Right. And it certainly you, I think, is what kind of caused this. Right? Like this grappling of Scotty, you know, it's like, why, why do I want it so bad? I mean, he says, right, like, why do I, I get to Augustine, it's like, why do I freaking want this so bad when I know that even when I win it, like, it is, it's this five minutes and then it's like, all right, well, what are we having for dinner tonight?

Well, don't, don't confuse this with non competitiveness.

Oh, totally.

And I think some people confuse Scotty's comments with the non competitive. Scotty Scheffler would step on you. Right. If he could win the Masters and he had a chance to step on you, he'd step on you. All right? Because he is a competitor. He is an apex alpha competitor at the highest level. Level. Okay? And so part of why this is so confusing is people can confuse that statement and his body language in his words with, With. No. Well, maybe shuffle doesn't really want. No, no. Scotty wants it. Right. And like, I think his superpower is just being able to separate and being able to turn it off. Right. And the Michael Jordan's like he says in the last dance, like, you know, part of my problem is that I was never able to shut it off. Yeah, right. Whether I was throwing quarters, whether I was playing basketball, whether I was golfing, whether I was playing poker, I could never turn it off. Right. And so that, that has become like the proxy of like, of what it takes to, to be one of the greatest of all time. Right. And so I think what Scotty does, yeah, he's got great perspective. When he goes away from the golf course, he seems like he can turn it off. Right. But when I heard those comments from him, I kind of fell for him because I think he questioned whether that was a sign of weakness.

Well, so, okay, so that's so sure. Maybe. Shane, I actually took it. You tell me. I actually took it a little differently. I totally agree with you. I'm like, this dude's a competitor and he's very clear and the evidence is obvious, you know, on that. I thought I went to a little different place, which is, Alex, what you were saying, which is he's sort of like, why do I care so much? Why am I so maniacally competitive about this thing? And I agree with you. I think he, he can compartmentalize where it doesn't feel like that level of competitiveness like infects his ability to like be present with his kid or whatever. But I thought that was kind of cool. Like he's sort of like, look, he's like rising above and looking down at himself and being like, why do I care so much when the thing is so fleeting? So I would ask you guys, okay, look, you guys can draw distinctions within professional athletes. Like, I don't know where you guys would put yourself on the competitor spectrum within people that were 15 year professional athletes. Okay, but people that are 15 year professional athletes are insane on the competitive spectrum. As a general matter, in the world, amongst the 8 billion people, you know, I was actually talking to someone the other day and like, you know, Shane, how many NBA players have there been that have played 13 years or more? Not very many.

Yeah, I mean, a small percentage. I would say less than 20, probably.

You're talking about percent.

Yeah.

And less than 20% of people that are like, there's probably like under 10,000 people that have ever played in the NBA at all, right? Yeah, you're about a few hundred people, maybe. Alex, like, how many NFL players have played 16 years or more. Like, extremely small. Like, absolute number, right?

I'm trying to Gemini this, but it's.

Not giving world Gemini placement. I feel like they gotta. They gotta pay us some money before you're gonna.

You know, it didn't come up with shit. So.

Okay, if you guys are examples of people that were extraordinarily competitive, okay? And I hope that I am that way, too. I believe I'm pretty competitive. But for you guys, there's a lot of evidence to support it. Why? Where do you think it came from to be that insanely competitive? Where. What is the source of that for you guys?

I can't remember a time when I haven't been competitive. Never. That's, like, the household I was raised in.

That's the environment, you know? Are and were your siblings as competitive as you all the time?

The wars that my brother Jeremy and I used to get in, you know, know, the. The knockdown fist, the cuffs, you know, the bloody noses, the fights because Wiffle ball game got out of hand. You know, playing pig of my little. Is one of my earliest memories of my younger brother of just. Just pounding him mercilessly in basketball, right? Him crying, right? But he. He always came back the next day. He always. And so, like. And my parents weren't, like, super competitive people, but, like, the. The environment that we were, it was always just like, we wanted to win, and we wanted to win. Like, I heard a story about Scheffler, and I love this story. It was from his. His swing coach, Randy Smith, who's been with him, you know, literally since he's been a junior, you know, 10 years old. And he was talking about how Scotty was just a sponge. And his favorite story, Scotty was. Here's this kid who's, you know, 11 years old, and he came down to watch Randy work out with this. This touring pro. He's probably, like, I don't know, 80th in the world, like, professional golfer. And they were working on something, and. And the target was this pole in. In the distance, you know, probably like 150 yards down, you know, and Scotty's just watching and. And Scotty's asking questions like, what are you guys trying to do? And like, oh, you know, we're trying to, you know, draw it into this poll. So Scotty's like, so you're trying to hit the pole and. Yeah, that. That. That. That's the goal. So Scotty kind of goes, huh, okay, and goes down to the end of the range and all of a Sudden, someone from the other end of the range is going, ping, ping, ping. Knocking this pole, right? It's Scotty Scheffler At 11 years old, you know, doing the same drill that this professor, you know, one of the greatest, you know, players in the world is, is trying to do. This is an 11 year old kid. No one had to tell him, hey, this is the goal.

Yeah.

He said, oh, that's what I got to do. Okay, I'm gonna go do it. And it was, that's like the competition is, is just, is just in you like that.

I think it's innate. You think it's, you think you're born with it, Shane?

I think you're born with it. I do think you're born with it. Just, just something inside of me has always just wanted to win. And you know, you know me, Robbie, whether we're, you know, we're playing cards, whether we're playing fantasy football, you know, I just like to compete. And I'm not trying to make people look bad. It's not because I want to raise myself above people. I, I just like to win. I just like to win. I like to say, you know what, I'm going to give my full effort into this and it paid off and it doesn't define me, but damn, it feels good. So I'm not going to apologize for any championship I ever won because, damn, I gave it everything I had and we did it and it feels great.

Alex, what about you?

Yeah, I loved what you said, Shane. Like, listen, this guy's not apathetic, right? Like, Scotty Scheffler is insane. Like, this is the same kid I, I, I remember hearing about. This is the kid that wore pants every day to the golf course because he knew from a young age he wanted to be a pro, right? Like, you can't be a pro if you.

Amazing story. Love it.

I'm wearing, I mean, this is the same kid again that like, yeah, like, so he has been working for this his entire life and has put in a ridiculous amount of time and effort into this. And so it is again, so shocking that you can be both of these things, which, right. I do agree with you. Ravi is like inspirational, right? Like, these are the things that we talk about all the time, right? Like, can you have this balance? I, I, nature, nurture, on competitiveness. I kind of agree with you, Shanley. Listen, I'm the third of four kids, like, I, I think that had a profound it. My siblings and my upbringing and my parents and the house I grew up in Had a huge effect on who I am. A huge effect. Like, I. I mean, you. It was a race to eat. Who, you know, eat. Like, how I could finish my food the fastest so I could go get seconds. Right? Like, you know, like, I. I think from day one, that is so, obviously that's a combination, but, like, I was the opposite of this. I was the absolute. When I turned pro. You have Scotty Scheffler here on one. One side of the spectrum from perspective, and I was on the complete opposite because I was so obsessed. This became all who I was, that I had to, like, validate other people's, you know, like, the draft status and. And all the fans, and I had to justify all this. And it consumed me. Like, absolutely consumed me. It was everything that I was.

Like, correct me if I'm wrong. Like, I. And people who. And athletes and CEOs, who. Who say this, I think they're lying. The goal is never greatness. The goal is never sports immortality or business immortality. All right? You know, it's. It's. I want to just, like, make it prove that I belong. And then once you get that taste of, oh, no, I can be really good at this now, your aperture kind of widens and your ambition widens, right?

Yeah.

Right. So, like, like, where do you think that played for. For you? Right? Like, I just want to make it, like, Like, I just want to go to the. Utah. I'm going to Utah. Oh, my gosh. Like, this is amazing. This is amazing. It's amazing. And then all of a sudden, you're like, what? I could be the number one pick. Yeah, right. And so, like, your. Your expectations as to what success is and your expectations as to what your journey is obviously changes the more you get exposure and the more you realize that you have more potential to. To do more. Right. And don't you think, like, this is part of the story as well? Like, I don't think Scotty Shuffler, you know, you know, at 11 years old, said, I want to be one of the greatest players of all time. I want to be a Hall of Famer. I want to, you know, threaten Tiger Tigers records. I mean, that's some. That's nice to say, but, like, I'm sure he would have been happy with a tour card until you realize, like, damn, I'm pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah.

I guess for me. I wonder, though, Shane, like, again, I just go back is. Is the reason he's the best in the world because of this attitude. Like, that's just what I like. Which one comes First. Right. Like, I, I don't. The reason he has the guts to be vulnerable and raw up there and to say this is because he does not care.

Yeah.

What other people think. But I would never have had the guts.

He's also one, though. I think that I, I underestimate that.

I know.

I, I agree that.

But, you know, if Cam Young gets up there who's, you know, has never won a major or if, if, if Ricky Fowler, you know, gets up there, you know, or whoever. The best players never win a major and he says, you know, what, what's the point? What's the point? But he would be eviscerated by everybody.

And I think people would.

Then, though. Sorry. Like, we've never heard a superstar say this. No, it's the opposite. They, they live in this intimidating, larger than life. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Tom. Like, we've never seen a guy who. And by the way, I mean, he's still fairly young. He is in his prime right now. I mean, like, this is, this is his moment. And I mean, killing golf. Right. Like, again, he is, he is in a different stratosphere. And in the, in that moment, to have this kind of perspective is very unique.

But Shane, I will tell you. So. Yeah, of course, everything is true. Like, this is why it's interesting. It's like, not. It is true that it's easier for him to say it because he's won, right. Because he's demonstrated as a champion. You know, it is also true that it's, like, unique because he's won, like, all the people that win generally, like.

No, no.

I put this out of everything. It truly, to me, this. I don't know. Do you. I think there's some analogy to Steph here a little bit, which is that, like, I don't think Steph talks like that. He hadn't say those words, but. But I do think it reminds me a little bit of him, of this, like, apex predator on the court, but also seems to have priorities and, you know, whatever else in line off the court. I don't know, honestly, if Steph would ever ask what's the point? Because I think he's extremely religious, from what I understand. And I think he, like, feels like the purpose maybe comes back to that. And so it's almost, to me, this, like, weird triangle of, like, excellence, compartmentalization and also, like, not knowing exactly what the purpose is yet. Right. Which is why it was so fascinating, I will tell you that. I think on all the points, you're one on competitiveness, whatever level Competitive. I've had day one. I cannot remember anything. I cannot remember not caring. I do think that I'm proud of. I'm very deliberate on which things I'm competitive on. Like, I don't care. Avni actually gets mad at me sometimes. We're, like, playing cards with, like, my parents, and, like, I just could not give a About who wins. And I. I love playing, but she's like, why do you not remember the cards? You're, like, smart. Why do you not count them? I'm like, I don't care at all. I just, like, want to sit here with the four of us and have fun. And she's, like, kind of annoyed. So, like. But when there's other things where, like, I care deeply about winning. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, Shane at Commissioner's cup against you and, you know, brother. Brother Michael. Me and my brother, like, we talked about that for a year that we were, like, gonna be competing against you guys. I cared so much. And so anyway, the competition thing that was, like, in me and then enhanced through my brother being good at everything. I do think that the thing I like about what Scheffler said is.

He'S.

Letting us see the fact that he wonders about his purpose while winning everything. Because I think the lazy analysis is that his purpose is to win golf tournaments. Do you see what I'm saying? And I think it's, like, so cool to be able to see someone who's achieving at that level who's like, yes, I'm an apex predator competitor. Yes. I, like, think my fatherhood and husbandry is more important. And I wonder about what my purpose is. Like, it's awesome. It's so cool that we get to, like, see it. And I'm, like, very grateful to him for saying it.

You know, I couldn't agree more. That you don't have to just be one thing, right? And that you don't have to fit in this bucket. And then again to just have. And by the way, like, all of it, right? The example of. Of even just of the media day, like. Like that example of just, like, not caring, man. I know this isn't what you guys want to hear or think that I should, but I'm going to say it because this is what's on my mind. And then obviously, the words obviously reinforce it as well, is. I think it's. I kind of come back to what you said at the beginning, Ravi. Like, it is inspirational.

Well, though. You know what, though? I want to talk about Alex. I want to go back to your point on, like, what impact it has of him recently becoming a dad, I think you've hit on something deeply, deeply, deeply important there in terms of, like, an impetus to think like this. For sure. For me, when I became a dad, I still remember this so clearly. Hurricane Sandy happened in New York, like, I don't know, a few weeks after Nyan and Shrey were born. And there was, like, all this stuff of, like, well, what's going to happen? And, you know, and my parents were in town and Hurricane Sandy was about to hit, and there was something that came up where, like, the. We might lose power or something like that. My dad's like, what is your plan if you guys lose power in this apartment? And I think I, like, gave some, like, flippant response of, like, dad, like, the gas will still be on. We'll light a match, we'll heat the bottle. Like, it'll be fine, you know? And he, like, looked at me, like, very serious and was like, hey, it's not, like, cool anymore to not care, right? You're a father now. And I remember being like, whoa. Like, you know, you were, like, responsible for these tiny children. Like, don't give me this, like, throwaway answer about what you're going to do if the power goes out. Like, whose house are you going to? Who's going to take you and these children and your dog in? You know what I'm saying? Like, if something happens. And I was like. And it was extremely affecting, and it was also, to your point, like, it was just like, everything's different now. Everything's different now. What kind of person are you going to be? Like, so much of what I do is thinking now, will they be proud of what I would do? Is this what I would tell them to do? So I do think that the impetus for this, I would bet, is like, realizing your whole life, like, is different once the kid comes along, you know? And so I thought it was interesting, Alex, like, the impact that Hudson being born has on, like, effectively, like, stop. Stop acting in a way that you wouldn't want him to act totally. You know, like. Right. I think that's, like. That was so defined for me.

Yeah. Well, Shane, you say it all the time, right? Like, parenting isn't what we say. It's, like, not in those moments, right? It's like what our kids see us doing. And, like, I do. Yeah. Like, again, like, this ultimate check, right? Like, do I want my son to see me living like this? Right? Like, just consumed with what other people think about Me.

Yeah, right.

Like, control.

But I'm. I'm proud of, like, the fact that I worked really hard, and I hope my kids find something in their life that they feel passionate about, that they want to pour everything into and want to do, you know, practice and put more into it than the practice hours that they feel so, like, energized by this. By this thing that they have to do, which was basketball for me. You know, like, I talk about the fulfillment five all. You know, all the time. You know, the five things that you. That you need. You know, I love basketball, right? I love the status of being an NBA player. I love the compensation. I love the purpose that it gave me fighting for an NBA championship every single day. And I love my teammates, right? And so, like, I found something that, like, man, I loved it. It didn't define me, and I knew I was more than that, and I was a friend, and I was a husband and a philanthropist and all these things. But, like, I loved. I love looking back at my career and knowing that I. I put everything I could into it, and I got everything out of it. Not because I won championships. That's. That's a bonus. It's great. And I can say that because I won. I'm fully aware of that. I'm. I can say that you. But even if I didn't win, like, man, I gave it everything I had, and, like, I'm proud of that. I'm so proud of that. And overcoming adversity and just getting better and. And getting kicked in the face and coming back, like, yeah, man, like, I'm proud. And so, like, I hope that my kids find something that is as passionate as I was now. They don't need to do it my way. You know, I was. I was burning the ships, all right? I was. I will. You know, I. I had some plays in my playing career that I'm probably. You could probably Google that I'm. I'm probably not proud of. But, like, it was in the name of competition, you know, I didn't cheat. I never cheated, you know, but, you know, I toed the line in terms of, you know, wanting it really, really bad. But, you know, I. I hope my kids don't do it exactly the way I did it, but I want them to do it holistically in a way to find something that they can pour themselves into, because I think that's worthy, and I think that makes you a. A fulfilled person in the end of the day.

Shane, I mean, this. You. You literally. I mean, this is the Tom Brady. I don't want to call it a rebuttal because I don't think it is a rebuttal. But he got a lot of flack for this as well, right? Like, this was his response to the Scheffler interview. And it's like that. No, like, being a great dad isn't necessarily like, only reading to your kids at night and helping them with their homework, right? Like there. It's more than that, right? And it is this example and living with passion and hard work and dedication and, like, again, modeling that behavior for your kids. And I don't disagree with that either. I don't. I think what is, I guess, at the core of this, though, and I think what Sheffler's getting at is, again, like, what. What defines you from a purpose standpoint, right? Like, what fulfills your heart and the motivation? And for Scheffler, I do think that he. He grapples out, and I think, again, this is being a husband and has his first child and right now, this family and that so much of this is. He says it, right? It's like, it comes from a selfless place, right? Like, let's be very clear here. My son and wife are the most important things in my life. And it's not golf. And the moment that golf ever, right. Like, interferes with that. Like, I'm done. I think Tom, obviously trying to define that. Listen, I can be good at all these things, and they're all interconnected, right. You know, but I. I do think. I guess I. I come back to, again, what's the motivation on the Brady point?

Like, look, one of the first things you learn when you, like, become a parent is, like, don't judge other people's parenting. Right? You don't know what the hell's going on in their life. It's hard to be a parent. People should do it different ways. And so I, you know, if. If. If Tom Brady thinks that, like, the way he did it is the right way to do it for his kids, I'm sure he's right.

Good.

Know. Cool. I think that what he should have said, in my opinion, is, like, I did it this way. It worked for us. Scotty's doing it his way. It works for him. I don't think he should have commented, in my opinion, on, like, scotty's wrong. It's like, no, no, Scotty's not saying you're wrong. He's just saying he wonders about it. So that. That was my point there. Right? And I do think that that's like, there really are different ways to do it. Shane, I think what you said, which I love, love, love, love, is like, I hope all of our kids go on, like, worthy journeys. Right. You know, and I. I really hope that whatever that is, I think, you know, we all feel like we've been on worthy journeys, and, like, those are the ones that are fun and they're hard, and they have all these different elements. And, like, what I feel from you on your NBA career is, like, it was a worthy journey, man. Like, and, like, basketball in general was a worthy journey. Same for you, Alex, on football and, like, all the different things, and there's, you know, journeys within them, and I really, really, really believe that. Somebody once told me that, like, you could reduce my job and to, like, stand up, sit down, pick up the phone, try to make rich people richer. Right? Like, it's like a. You can, like, reduce anything to terrible things, right? And, like, you could reduce Scotty's journey into, like, hit a ball into a hole over and over and over and over again. And so I do think that, like, when you do that, you can start to wonder, like, what am I spending all this time for on this thing? Right. But Scotty loves it. And I think this is where I come back to, like, it's not everything that we do within, like, I don't know, a certain group of people in America, like, let's. Let's leave people out that are starving and all this stuff.

Yeah.

But, like, our lives are unrecognizable to people from 200 years ago, and effectively all of us are playing some sort of game. Even the work that I do, it is some sort of game. If you really, like, abstract it out versus, like, subsistence farming.

Yeah.

And so I think sometimes it is. If you have, like, reached some level of financial security or whatever, there is at least a question, I think oftentimes that comes up for people like, what on earth am I spending all this time for? And, like, back to Alex, like, title of this episode. Like, what's the point? And I think that, to me, it's almost like it goes back to, like, the point is to be excellent. The point is to work hard at things. The point. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't you think.

No, no, I totally hear you, but I guess I want to flip it on you, because obviously, I mean, it's easy for Shane and I, and obviously, Scotty plays a sport, and so it's easy to, like, reflect on it from that perspective. But for everybody else out there, right? Like, you could change this, right? Like, so material success for you, right? You're crushing. You crush your job. Like, you know, insanely successful. Like, it, it's still like, what's the point?

Yeah. Oh, dude.

You know, like, for anybody.

Totally.

Right? Like, and, and, and so since I've retired, this is a little bit of a looming question for me, right? Because again, I, I, I would love to say that football didn't define me and I don't want it to define me, so. But I hear I have the rest of my life and it's like, well, what are you going to do? What now? Right?

What I find interesting about this conversation, and, and we actually had this discussion earlier today. This is for those who don't know. Glue Guys is a show about teams and how to turn a group of people into a team, right? Or at least that's what we're, we're saying today. Scheffler's not on a team. This, this is where, this is where, this is where it gets a little bit different. Okay. When we are a part of a team, that's interesting. And when you are a, a, either a leader or have a large part in that team, your job is to bring people with you. That's the point. That's the point of life, I believe, is to do as well as you can and bring people along with you on the journey. That, that's the point, at least for me. And that has always been my North Star. And for me, my NBA career was about. I want to play 10 years and retire before I get kicked out of the league. Those are my only two goals. My only two goals in my, in my, my basketball career was I want to play in the NBA for 10 years, and I want to retire before they ask me to leave. And if I did that, I knew that I'd be in a position to bring people along with me. Regardless of what my stats were, regardless of how many championships I, I want, I would be in the position to bring people along with me. And I have through Take Charge foundations, through my corporate speeches, through this podcast, like, I've, I've contributed to society. I think I've made people's lives better, given them a different perspective that has enhanced their journey. That's my job, okay? Now, again, my life has been teams, and so that, that's very natural to me. For golfer, it might be different. Their teams are much smaller, obviously, with their swing coach and their trainers and their, in their, in their agents.

And so I don't feel caddy's Baby.

Catties. Shout out Bones. Shout out Bones.

Shout out to Luke from a hoopy.

Okay, Luke. Yep. Dave. Dave from a hoopie.

But, like, you know, we got to get brother Smith a consistent caddy. But anyway, go on.

Maybe, you know, Scotty, and he's not there yet. He feels the need to bring his family along, but, like, he could bring a lot of people along with him right through his career, and maybe he doesn't want that responsibility like, now. And, you know, you. You tend to get that, that perspective a little bit more as you age and you realize your own, you know, sports mortality, your own professional mortality. Like, I talked to Keegan Bradley when I played golf with them earlier this year, captain of the Rider cup, and he was very.

In your foursome. Shane, when you played with Kinga.

Yeah, Keegan was my partner. T5, baby.

I know, but I'm saying, who else was in your foursome?

The goat. The goat.

Let's go.

And Seth. Wild, my boy. But, you know, Keegan was very. Was very transparent about. Look, when I was younger, I was a selfish golfer, and I was, I was, you know, it was about my performance, and I didn't want to, you know, necessarily help the younger guys coming behind me. Like, I've changed now. I'm. I'm a father of multiple kids. I'm on my way out. Know, I'm still playing. He's still, he shouldn't make the Rider cup this year, but he's like, I feel a responsibility to, to help people who, who are coming behind me. And so that was a really cool perspective from, From Captain Keegan. And so, so maybe Sheffler's just not there yet. Right? And. And he'll. He'll find that. That purpose, because I, I think everyone comes to a point where they feel they got to bring people along. I don't, you know, you don't think his.

There was a lot of power in this press conference. I mean, I, I, man, I, I, like, I. Again, I applaud him for this, but.

I think he was being honest. I don't think he was doing it to, to the benefit of you. And I, I think he was just being honest, and he was talking from the heart. He wasn't saying, hey, it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to have these feelings and, and think about what's. What's more.

Alex, let me ask it a different way. Let me ask you a different way. Okay, I agree with you. I think it's huge power in it, and I think it is his superpower Right Now, I think if we do agree that part of the press conference was him saying, like, I am very happy with my life. I love it. I'm good at it, and I'm enjoying it. And I do wonder sometimes about the purpose professionally. Right. Like, you know, like, but. But it doesn't affect my, like, ability to be excellent. Here's the real question for you, and I want to go back to what you asked earlier on me for. I want to answer that. But when Scheffler's 45, okay? And let's just say he's been amazing. He. He, like, I don't know if he gets the Tiger level, but he, you know, he's one of the top five golfers of all time, some incredible career. Okay. Do you think at 45, Scheffler will be saying something similar, or do you think that at 45, he would view it as successful if he could be like, yeah, actually, I did kind of figure out what the point was for my life. In addition to my family, I have found a way professionally to do X, Y and Z. Like, because what I'm hearing from Shane is a little bit like, yeah, it's amazing. It's inspirational. It's great. It's a superpower. And Scheffler is not fully where he's going to be when he's 45 as it relates to, like, purpose. Do you see what I'm saying?

Yeah. Like, obviously, I.

We got to get.

I wear in those shoes.

Scotty, come on.

Scotty.

The thing.

The thing is what I hear, right? Like, and he says it like, the achievements are personally gratifying.

Yep.

Right. Like, personally gratifying. And I do think, again, you. You. You know, at the end of your career, you do look back on it.

And.

That gratification, again, is so selfish. And. And I think this is, again, the. The crux of this.

It.

And he. It doesn't fulfill your heart, though, right? Like, again. And this is what you're saying, Shane, like, it can't be about you, right? And. And there's more to life, right? Like, and for him right now with his young family, his faith, like, again, the. Your community, like, those are what you talk about as far as purpose, right? And I think he clearly is saying, like, I was not put on this earth necessarily, like, to be a pro golfer, right? Like, that doesn't define me. Um, and again, he may have, you know, this hall of Fame career already, and again, those achievements can selfishly be gratifying for your ego, but that's not Purpose in my mind.

Yeah. And I think look, I mean he, you could imagine him saying like, look man, anybody can concoct a way to create something that's fake. Like Scotty could be like, look, like, you know, I'm an example of what happens if you work extremely hard at something and devote yourself to it. Like he, he's, he is very inspirational in terms of like some relationship between long term hard work and success. Right. Scotty also has like a really different looking golf swing than a lot of people. You're like, I have an example of non conformism. You could come up with whatever you want. I think he's being very authentic of like, you know, I love it because I love it. I do wonder sometimes, like, you know, what's the point?

I think the other lesson in this like that I come back to and he, and he says it multiple times like he, he's grateful and he loves playing golf. He loves waking up.

He does it. I love playing golf. Yeah.

And like he, I do love this idea of inputs. He talks a lot about being present.

I have some dreams and aspirations that I'm always striving towards, but at the end of the day I try to stay present. I try to practice hard each and every day.

He doesn't set a ton of goals. Right? Like I'm going to win X number of tournaments this year, X number of majors. Like that's not how. Like again, it is. The focus is on the things that actually matter. And like that you can control. And again, those are inputs. This is like the, the Bill Walsh philosophy, right? Like it does come back to this. Like the score takes care of itself. Focus on the, that matters. And I think this is a great example of that. Right? And again, like for me it just was so different than how when I became a.

It was amazing.

Amazing. I have a very serious professional question for you. All right? You are a board member of many companies in the Sequoia, the Sequoia portfolio. Your next board meeting founder comes in and says, hey guys, here are the financial results for the quarter. But what's the point here? What is the point? Does this really matter? What is your reaction as a board member and what is the reaction of your fellow board members if you get that statement from the CEO founder who you've invested into? Is the dynamic different? Is it the same? Is it a fair question? Is it not a fair question?

Are we saying he won 12 tournaments in the last year?

Is this the number 75 golfer? One golfer.

He's funded by Sequoia So he's, you know, know it's not, not his first, you know, not the first day on the job.

Look, I think here, listen a few reactions, truthfully. One I think we tell people this sometimes is like, if the num. If you're going to perform, you can have as many or as few meetings as you want, right? Like, if you're not, like, maybe we should meet a little more often to talk about what's going on and whatever. So I guess one thing I really do think if the person was just absolutely crushing and they're like, our business is crushing and I sometimes wonder what the purpose is, right? But like, I don't know why, but it still matters to me that we're crushing and I'm putting in all this time. The real answer is like, if it was a Scotty Scheffler equivalent on performance, we kind of be like, hey man, do your thing. You know, And I think that what probably would happen later would be there would be a separate group of a subset of board members who'd call each other be like, do you think that this person's going to quit? Like, there'd be a real question on duration. Do you see what I'm saying? It would be like, do we think we just heard that this person might not want to do this for a long time? And then somebody else would be like, no, do you hear how many times that he or she said they love it, they love it, they love it, you know, whatever. So I really think that, like that would be a question. I think if somebody who wasn't crushing it was saying it, saying that the person who hasn't won. Shane I think there'd be a lot of conversations like, oh, look, you're not a. Is this person really a missionary? Are they really obsessed with this mission? And you know, you'd want to talk to them. And again, it would come back to duration, which is like, are they going to want to do this for the amount of time that you're going to need to do this for to be excellent? And I think like going back and Alex, I'm glad you're bringing it to like some non athletic pursuits because I do think that like the vast majority of people that listen to this or listen to Scotty like aren't professional athletes and it's more relatable to think about it outside of the context of professional sports, right? I think that there's sort of some level of like most people work because they need the money, you know what I'm saying? And so you have to acknowledge that, like, whatever, beyond the money, there's. Those are higher order things you hope to get. But, like, the real reason that the first reason most people work is, like, they have to support their families. I think if you've achieved that to some extent, then the next question is sort of like, what are you doing this for? And I will tell you, just personally for me, like, what do I do? My stuff for one is I like playing challenging games. I find this game to be challenging. Like, it is not easy for me to figure out what to do, what companies to invest in, what to tell someone when they're going through a hard time professionally. I find that to be challenging. And I like playing challenging games, right? Like the same reason most of us, like, that's one, two. I want to tell my kids that it's good to play challenging games. Do you see what I'm saying? I want them to know that, like, you gotta keep playing things that are hard, right? No matter what happens in your life or career, like, you are going to need to do things that are difficult. I, like, really believe that. There's this great Rafael Nadal quote of, like, we need these difficult things. Like, I think that you, like, really want to have that. And then I also do it because I. I like the people I spend time with, you know, and I like being relied upon. This is a Sam Hinkey thing of, like, I like being reliable. I like being relied upon. I like, if a founder I work with calls me and is sort of like, hey, like, this happened. What do you think we should do? Like, it makes me feel good that they care what I think. And honestly, it does more for me than I do for them. So. But Alex, I will tell you that, like, sometimes most pronounced feeling of this to me is if I'm traveling and I'm like, away from home, you know, and I'm doing something that I'm not enthusiastic about when I'm traveling. I have like the full, like, what on earth am I? Yes, totally, right? Like, why am I here? What? You know, and then I'll get a text on our text, our family text chain. And it's the people looking so happy or not happy. And I'm just like, why am I not there right now? Like, what am I doing this for? So, you know, I find those moments to be most pronounced, you know, if I'm traveling for something I'm not enthusiastic about, you know, I see Shane nodding.

That was my entire year at espn. You know, the people were great there. But I, I Asked myself, what is the point? What is the point? I'd finish a game I remember calling a absolute rock fight. It was Louisville, Georgia Tech on a Saturday. All my buddies were golfing.

All right.

And I'm in the, in the Georgia Tech arena, and the score was like 48 to, like 38. It was an absolute rock fight of a basketball game. And I got done and I'm like, what am I doing here? What is, what is the point of this? That was it. That was it. That's when I decided I had to retire. So shout out to espn, by the way.

I just, I just signed back on that. On that note, more years re upped espn, baby. You guys are hitting on. I, I think, at least for me, this is really front of mind. It's really something that I, Yeah. Dealing with right now because.

I mean.

I could do nothing. I mean, I, I, I could literally do nothing. That, that's. What is that you couldn't.

I don't think you'd be able to sustain that. No, neither.

You couldn't sustain playing golf every day either.

No, I, No, I know that.

The.

Marriage would not sustain that for sure.

And I, and I think the thing I enjoy about TV right now, my current role is one. My team. I love the team I'm on is awesome. This is awesome. The shows comes first. It's like, dude.

And it's the text chain that comes along with the team. It's like all these things.

But it is also the challenge of the tv, which, by the way, you want to talk about the shallowest medium on the planet. Right. Like, it is literally, like, I got. They put makeup on me, but, like, can I be real?

Yeah.

Given the lights and the cameras and the makeup and, like, the crux of, like, can I be real about. Obviously, I played a long time. I sat in a lot of seats and, you know, had a lot of experiences. And so to your point, Ravi, like, doing challenging things. That's what I derive from it. And not to, like, justify it, but, like, again, these are all just, this is all like real time for me, having just resigned. And I have these same conversations with my wife and I'm going to be away a chunk of nights. Right. Like, and, and to have these feelings, Ravi. Like, but it is very much like, like, I'm living it right now and I like grappling with all this shit.

Yeah. I mean, listen, I think this is actually very important. There's times like, this is so dumb, but, like, when we go on Commissioner's Cup, I don't I don't have one moment of feeling like, what am I doing here? Right. I'm, like, investing time with my close friend. I love it. So it's not that, like, oh, I can't travel. It's, it's if I am traveling for something that turns out not to be worthwhile, and then I'm like, what have I done? Why did I agree to this? And so I think, to me, you have to resign. It's actually nice that you have to, like, resign the contract. Right. You got to re. Underwrite. Do I want to go? Yeah, is this worthwhile? And, like, you know, look, if it was 52 weeks a year, there's no way you sign this thing.

Yeah.

Right now, however many weeks it is, and then particular days, you know, like, look, there's 365 days in a year. However many days you've, like, signed up, it ain't 365, and it ain't 200. And so it's not, like a knock against travel. There's some travel that, like, is. We have our fantasy football draft this weekend. I'm looking forward to that travel, you know, like, but it just, it depends. Yeah, it depends on what it's for priorities.

To bring it back to Scotty, you know, I love the vulnerability. I think the messaging was, was. Was spot on given the circumstance, given the, the stakes that were at hand. It's only golf. It's only golf tournament, but it's, It's a tournament that pretty much anybody who's ever picked up a golf club would. Would give anything to win. Right. And it was, I thought it was a. Just a really authentic moment. And I I appl Me too. I, I, I. It would have been better recepted if he would have said, not. What's the point? Because that makes it feel that, like, we're all wasting our time with this, this venture versus what else is there? What else is there? What else is out there that can make me feel whole? Right. And so I think a lot of people reacted just by the, the verbiage that he used. I, I, I understood 100% what he was saying. Right. Said in a different, A different way. It might have landed a little softer with the hardcore Jordan Knights out there.

Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I found it inspirational, truly, of, like, you know, work like crazy, be crazy competitive, be the best. Also have your priorities in line and also be introspective. Like, I thought it was incredible and, like, awesome and inspirational. I hope Scotty's listening. That'd be great. But then I also. Do you guys think he's gonna win this weekend?

Yeah.

Strong likelihood.

Me too. Yeah, me too. And, like, I don't know, like, there is a unique brand of athlete when there's, like, an inevitability to them winning, and particularly when that happens in golf, it's just insane. And I understand this weekend he starts with a big lead, but, like, you.

Know, anyway, it's so funny because I think at times, like, vulnerability like this and being raw can be such a flex of strength.

Yeah.

Right. Like, this guy is so secure in who he is.

Yeah.

That he can get up there and open up and, like, bear his heart. Right. And, like, listen like that. These are questions that every probably human on earth is grappled is like, what is the point? Right. Like, it is such a human part of life. And again, for him to. To do that, I. I think was just such a. Shown of. Of respect. There's so much courage. Right. With that example, again, that modeling that behavior, I think was amazing for. For everybody out there, not just the kids listening, but the kid and me.

You know, it was awesome.

Was. Was really powerful.