The Confidence Myth - [Glue Guys, EP.18]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Welcome to Glue guys. We're your host, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta, and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms, and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

All right, so we decided today we're going to talk about when you lose your confidence and when it happens, why it happens, probably most importantly, like, what do you do about it once it happens, you know, and we'll see where that takes us. But, Shane, you're in pretty confident, dude. When have you ever lost it? When has the mojo not been there?

Don't let the smooth taste fool you. Okay, look, the peak of my confidence had to be when I was wearing a Chinese basketball shoe called peak. And I would go to China every year and do a national tour. I've been to every part of China, right? And one trip, I had to do three things that I had no business doing. And it took very confident person to pull it off. Okay? I don't speak a word of Mandarin. Okay? So the first thing was I. I hosted the Chinese version of. Of snl, the Saturday Night Live version of. Of the Chinese version.

You were the solo host?

I was the solo host. I was. It was called show called happy camp. 120 million people every week. Okay. Saturday night. And, you know, it was all based around my love of karaoke. And so, like, I had this. This opening.

There's no.

There's no video. I. I can't find anywhere. But the opening montage was me coming out of the flow.

So we don't know that this actually happened.

Singing Frank Sinatra in New York, New York. And I'm singing. I'm kicking, and I'm, you know, memorize the song. It's not karaoke. This is, like, real. And I can't sing. I can't sing to save my life, okay? So it takes peak confidence. I. I went on. I went on Chinese Oprah after that. And then I was the headline karaoke singer for the Tsingtao Beer Festival in Tsingtao, China. And I'm on stage, I kid you not. There were like 6,000 people. And I get up on stage, and I was promised karaoke. And I had. I forgot what song I even sang. I think it was Michael Jackson, maybe Billie Jean. And all of a sudden, I look back and there's no Words on the screen. So here I am in Tsingtao, China, all right, Trying to sing the words of Billie Jean, do a little Michael Jack, okay? So that took every amount of confidence. But I was never a naturally confident person. I was. I was always super gangly. I, you know, I got no play. I married the only. The first woman that I kissed. Okay.

My.

My wife Heidi. My first girlfriend. My first kiss, and I ended up marrying her. Okay. That, and I didn't have any. Any swag. We always talk about, like, the process of work and everything comes out of work and coming out of having a little bit of success and proving yourself that, yeah, I can do this, I can do this. But, you know, I tell people, athletes and entertainers are the most insecure people.

Yes.

In the entire world. And no one. No one believes me when I say that.

I don't even kind of believe you when you say that.

When you go into a locker room, there is so much self doubt and there's so much imposter syndrome, and there's so much insecurity that goes on. You know, guys do a really good job of masking it and faking it. But, Alex, would you attest to that?

I mean, this whole time, I guess I feel like all I've been thinking about is how I think people would be shocked if they knew. At the highest level of sport, all pros. Yeah. That confidence is such a big issue, you know, and I think it makes sense, like, when you're in it, because, you know, everywhere you look, like when you walk into a locker room, like, every guy to your left and your right, like, they're. They've all been the guy. Like, these guys are like the.

Yes.

Of bad.

Yes.

Like alpha dogs. Like, you know, and so. And you. You're all thinking that about each other. Right? Like, and it just. I. It does. I couldn't agree more. Like, and you turn on the tape and you're watching your opponents and you're like, damn, these guys are good. Like, and it's every week, right? And I think it does. This is a huge issue. Right? And in football, it's really funny because you only play once a week and you spend. And my favorite part is you spend all week and the coaches do this, like, fretting about how good the opponent is that you're playing, Right. Like, damn, these guys are good. Like, and you're like, look at this defensive end. You know, look at this linebacker. Look at this corner. Like, look at their scheme. Like, how are we going to beat them? And I Think certainly even that's part of the. Probably the philosophy of a lot of coaches, like, in the football world. Just some scare tactics, right? But it's funny, I can't tell you how rare it is. And this is probably what makes the special guys. Certainly that, right? Like, when I think of, like, Steph and certainly Patrick, you know, having known him, is like, he doesn't let any of that get to him, you know, like, he just somehow has this. This block on that, right? And like, for me, I think of, like, the shooter's mentality, right? Like, they don't let the last 10 misses affect the next shot, right? Like, they just have this. This ability to block that out. Whereas, like, that's all I'm thinking about, right? Like, I just. Shit, I just, you know, I just hooked 1 left OB. Let me tell you what I'm thinking about on the next tee box. Like, it's exactly that.

And so in business, you know, in my. My mind, the way that most successful CEOs and founders. And founders a little bit, they skew younger. But a successful executive, all right, C suite executive, I picture like when you're associate, you're just trying to survive. I'm trying to figure out what's up, what's down. And then you get that promotion and you get a little more confidence and you get that maybe VP promotion a little more confident. When you finally get there, then, you know, you're a made person, right?

Yeah. Obviously that's not true, you know? You know, but, you know. Have you guys ever heard of the Peter Principle?

No.

Okay. Have you heard of it, Alex?

No.

So the Peter Principle is this idea that you are promoted to your level of incompetence. Because if you think about it, when you're good at your job, you get promoted, and then at some point you stop getting promoted. And when you stop getting promoted, that is some sign, potentially, unless you've reached the very, very, very top. But, like, think about it. Like, you are actually no longer good at your jobs, therefore, you're not getting promoted. And so it's almost like the more senior you are, whenever you've gotten stuck, you're sort of like, no longer that good at it. I think what's interesting.

Did you just make that up or is this a.

It's a real thing. It's a real thing. You can Google it. It's a real thing. But, you know, Shane, you mentioned a couple of things. That's interesting. One. I think if you're a founder, you actually are told no all the time.

Yeah, right.

Like, one of the things that makes them good is just purely like, actually being able to just get back up after being told no. You start a new company and you try to sell it. Like, everybody tells you no, whether it's investors, whether it's potential customers. So that's interesting. They have to, like, not let that mess up their confidence. But in the world I'm in now, a venture, it's actually a weird thing because there's only a few companies every year that actually, like, really turn out to matter. And it's not a batting average game. It's a slugging percentage game. So you can, like, you know, be right a lot, but actually not do anything that matters for your firm or for your fund or you can. You can do that. And so it actually really does mess with your confidence. There's like, one of the things is, like, you're used to being good at stuff. You're used to being having some process that you can apply. And if you just do these things, good things will happen. But it's so rare to find that great company that, like, it doesn't, like, submit to just great process because the feedback cycle is so long. And so it's kind of a weird thing there. But the big observation I have on people that I respect, like Fiji Sima, who's the CEO of Instacart, she's amazing. It's not that she doesn't ever have moments where she gets down. It's that she moves from, like, I have a problem to, here's what I'm going to do about it in, like, lightning speed. Right? And that is actually the interesting thing about her is, like, she does have moments where it's like, oh, shit, this is a problem. But what's so unique about her is, like, the speed from, like, I have a problem to, okay, I have this idea. It's like inside of five minutes on the same phone call. And so I think that's something I look at a lot in people is like, how long do they go from like, I have a problem to here's an idea of how I'm going to solve it. It's not that they don't lose the confidence or ever have a moment. It's like the speed to turn around.

Is confidence even the right word, what.

We'Re talking about here? No, it's not. It's like, I don't know what it is.

No, I mean, mix of, like, stubbornness, ability to block things out, still believe, right?

You know, I kind of agree with what Ravi said. Like, again, I can't help but think of the hall of Famers that I played with. Again, like, first ballot guys. And it's not that they didn't waver in confidence. They did all the time. They just moved on from it faster or they reset quicker, right? Like, they did. They had mechanisms in place that got them back to the details, like, of, like, again, like, of what was in front of them. And I do think those guys also then didn't. Didn't carry it as long. Right? Like, and I. You know, like, and again, I guess the big question is, like, how do you do that? Right? Like, how do you let go? And I do think that this is. This is something that I. Later in my career, it took me a long time to learn this, but, like, sometimes you can hold on too tight, you know, like, you can care too much, and it can actually become a negative. And I do think there has to be some level of. You've got to be comfortable with different outcomes, right? You got to be okay to miss the shot. Like, you know, in order to reach your full potential. Like, you got to be okay with that.

Well, that's.

That's what Coach K. His number one lesson. If you ask any player that played for Coach K in the last 40 years, let's say, what's the one thing you heard ad nauseam? And they would tell you next play.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's the mentality that every Duke player, every Duke team, what you're talking about and the way Coach K explained it is like, look, there are, like, literally a thousand ways to impact a single play, and they both have negative and positive impacts on the play. You could grab a rebound, you can take a shot, you can miss a shot, you can turn the ball over, you can steal the ball, you can grab, rebound. So literally thousands of ways you can impact a single play, and it's actually not what happens that matters, but how you react to it, right? And in basketball, he used the analogy of a basketball. You have an awesome play, you come down, you cross someone over, you hit a step back three. What do you do? You point to your mom in the crowd, you pose for the cameras, start flexing, shooting all the bow and arrows.

That these kids do now.

No, you get your ass back on defense and press me again. Do that move again. Can you move on to the next moment and do it again? Can you move it on to the next moment? Do it again, right? And again and again and again and again and again. And you said on the other side of the token you have a horrible play, all right? You come down, you trip over your feet, you turn the ball over, you make, you know, SportsCenter, not top 10 play. Everyone's laughing at you. You're on Instagram, you know, do you sit and sulk and say, oh, man, I stink. Maybe I should think about a different game than basketball? No, you dust yourself off, you go on to the next play, and you try to avoid that mistake you made before, you know? And so it's the people and the teams that are able to move on to the next play quicker than their opponents that have success over the long run, whether they had success or failure.

Yeah. And you know, Alex, that's why it's interesting. You talked about some of the guys that you played with or you observed that are uniquely good at this. And I actually think what's the thing that people probably miss is they probably think they never feel it.

Right?

And it's like, no, no, that's wrong. They definitely feel it. What they've worked on is the ability to get back quicker, and they are uniquely good potentially at that. Like, you watch Djokovic, right? Tennis is crazy for this because the points just keep coming, of course. And you had nobody else on your team, just you. And I think one of the things that he talks about is he's like, I train mentally as much as I train physically. I have to train myself to actually be able to be resilient. And I always thought that was pretty interesting, Right? And it's almost like to me, the people that do this, well, they embrace reality of, like, I have a problem, right? And they're like, I got a problem. And they allow themselves for whatever short period of time of, like, this sucks that I have this problem. But then they just realize that they are happier when they're solving a problem than wallowing in a problem. It's like, okay, if I have this problem, like, here's what I gotta go do about it. Like, this is happening because of X, Y, or Z. I'm gonna go work on X, Y, or Z, you know?

Yeah.

And they just, like, get. It's like trite, but they, like, get back on their front foot more quickly, you know?

Yeah.

The next play, like, they. They just. That's where they go.

Alex, you talked about, like, throwing up before the games when you lost your mojo.

Yeah.

You've been very vocal about losing. Losing your mojo after being the number one pick in the NFL draft. Right. And having self doubts whether you were that dude or whether you're going to be a Bus. You throw up before games.

Which is.

Which is I can actually relate. I used to throw up before my games at Duke. Not because I was nervous, per se, but because I wanted to play well so bad and, like, you know, please Coach K and please my teammates, you know, so it was more anxiety about, oh, I gotta be. I gotta be great. Not that I'm gonna be horrible, but, like, how did you get out of that mindset?

You know, I think, you know, it took me, you know, obviously longer than I would have liked. It seemed like forever when I was in the middle of it. I think there's an aspect that, like, you do have to go through it, you know, like, you do have to get, like, some notches on your belt, right, like, before you can start to really, you know, have that kind of confidence and shake off bad performances. Right. Like, to know that, like, I've done this, I know what it looks like. And when you haven't done that before, like, that unknown can seem, like, overwhelming. And I think, again, this is kind of part of that whole recognition. Like, I wish I would have leaned into it more then that. Like, I wish I would have leaned into. Like, I am unconfident right now. Right? Like, I'm going through this, and I'm going to lean into this hard, you know, it was a profound. When I retired, I got asked ted. Yeah, Like, TED Talk. The Red Circle asked me to do a talk. And, like, I watched it.

It was good.

It was this. But it was this really, you know, for one, it was, like, obviously kind of humbling. And, like, I'm like, what is important for my career? Like, what. Like, what the hell do I have to say that matters? And I. You know, and it really made me kind of be critical of my entire journey. And I think the thing that jumped out to me was every, like, big struggle I had, every daunting challenge I had when I. Like. And like, these were moments like this when I was at my, like, most unconfident. Like, soon after, there was, like, step, function, growth, you know, like, and it was right around the corner. And it probably only came because of the struggle, right? Like, that, like, I had to fight through something and figure something out that all of a sudden then, like, right around the corner, when I was like, least expecting it, like, I grew and it was kind of this profound. And it really kind of, like. And it certainly changed me as a parent. Like, when struggle happens for, like, my kids, not that I want them to see this, but, like, I almost get excited about it right like this. These are like, this is the good stuff. Like, this is when they're gonna grow and learn. And I think, again, this is so easily said and hard. When you're. When you are the one going through hard things, it's this, like, lean into it. But I do, like, I think you have to go into the mentality, like, maybe this was. Maybe this is the best thing for me. You don't know. You know, it's like that ancient. That proverb, right, of like, of fortune. I think it's a Chinese proverb. Like, when the bad, the great thing happens to the farmer, right? And they're like, hey, isn't this such good fortune? He's like, maybe. And then right around the corner, something. Wham, something bad happens. Like his son breaks his leg. And then they're like, man, that's so unlucky. And he's like, maybe. And then the next day, there's like, war, and they're like conscribing soldiers.

Knows these well because he was so big in China.

Yeah, that's right. But you know what I'm saying, Like, I do think that's part of it. Like, you can't read into some of these things. And when sometimes bad things happen, like, listen, that's it. It is an element of life. And even, like to go to the statistics guy over here, like, probability, like, it's gonna happen. And I think the important thing more often than not than certainly the lessons in history and certainly even things that, from my experience is like, you got to just keep showing up and showing up with a level head, right and present. And I think that's what matters. And again, recognizing it when it happens is such a big part of this, like, when you are struggling with something and your confidence. But I do think. I think it's important to, like, it's a little bit of the, like, the obstacle is the way that raises a good question.

We talk about leadership here. What's more important when your team or your unit is struggling? Is it to show you have the mojo and the confidence, or is it more important to show the vulnerability that, hey, I just. I don't know how it's going to go. I don't know how it's going to turn out.

Which role are you in this? Are you a teammate?

We're a leader.

Okay.

We're a leader. So, you know, talk me through how you think about the dichotomy of ratio of confidence and vulnerability.

I'm going to give you a personal. Two personal examples on this that I think Both are relevant. One, you know, when I started at Sequoia four or five years ago, I had had, like, good success in my career, right? You know, and everyone there has had good success in their career, but I was joining a little later or whatever, so I was like, I gotta, like, be good and whatever. And so I was kind of acting like I was good for six, nine months. And in the back of my mind, I sort of kind of knew it was. I wasn't, like, I knew. I didn't know exactly what I was doing, but I was trying to put on as good of a show as I could going, man, I've been successful. And it kind of took somebody nine months in to be like, hey, man, listen, like, this is not going well, okay? Like, you are not doing well at what we're doing. Like, and you don't seem like you're on a track to be able to. Well, and that was, like, really jarring and terrible and negative in my own, like, little world, right? Because mostly I was lying to myself that it wasn't. That wasn't going well, right? But then all of a sudden, like, you couldn't lie to yourself anymore because, like, our team is really small. And so when a couple of them kind of pull you aside, like, it's not going well, you're like, oh, wow. It's evident to everybody. And so the role that they play. And then I'll get to, like, what I think the role of the leader is, you know, anyway. But the role that they played was, like, they made me see reality. I didn't want to see it. And I think a lot of times when you have this confidence issue, you kind of know in the back of your mind is not going great. But, like, somebody has to, like, make it obvious to you, or you have to make it obvious to yourself. And, like, that could be the situation you've described of the crowd chanting the backup quarterback's name. Or it can be a couple of people pulling you aside, being like, look, man, like, and then not knowing the direction you want it to go. And it's, like, embarrassing. And, like, the first person I remember, like, feeling like, gosh, I gotta go home and tell Avni that, like, this is not going well and you feel bad, like, you don't want to go. And you're like, the father, you're the husband, you're like, you don't want to go do that. But, like. But then I, like, literally read the book. The obstacle is the way. It's like, the only way out is through like, the only way to get through this is to go and, like, do the stuff, Admit the stuff you don't know how to do. And so for me, I kind of had, like, go back to square one of like, okay, I actually, the reason this is not going well is I don't know how to do this, you know? And so that means I have to go and learn it. And that means, like, can you teach me this? And, like, really humble yourself. Which, like, sucks. But that's the only thing. And I think that it's still hard, but, like, when I'm not doing well at something, what I try to get to now is sooner, like, don't lie to yourself, right? And sooner, more willing to, like, ask somebody, like, I don't know how to do this. Can you please tell me? Right? And then like, sit there and learn on your point on confidence versus vulnerability. My view on this actually comes from. So this guy named Chris Cox is the chief product officer at Facebook. Okay. And he has had an unbelievable career and he's a really, really, really, like, good dude. And he came and spoke to us one time at Instacart right after Amazon bought Whole Foods. So, like, true moments where like, there is a crisis and our first reaction was sort of like, we're going to get through. We got it. And we had him come for an all hands. And the reason we had him come for an all hands was to talk about what it felt like to be in wartime at Facebook. And Facebook did that when Google launched. Google, this is 100 years ago, but remember, Facebook was once like, or Meta was once like a startup and Google was the behemoth. And they launched a social network. And everyone's like, facebook's going to die. And so Facebook went into what they called lockdown. They like, you know, wartime, like, we are not leaving until we beat, you know, Google. Okay, cool. Zero sum game. Anyway, so we wanted him to come talk about that, to like inspire the team on wartime. And instead what Chris says is he's like, look, like, the first thing about wartime is like, you gotta admit when you're in a crisis. And I was interviewing him and I'm kind of ready for him to move on to talk about wartime. And he's like, like, for instance, I think you guys are in a crisis. And I'm like, oh, shit, I wasn't ready for that. And like, I'm sitting, like, right as I am with you, Alex, like this close. And he kinda looked at me like, I think you're in a crisis. And I'm like, okay. You know, and then he looks at the crowd, and I still remember, like, Chris is actually, like, this is relevant for the story. Like, a very handsome guy. And he, like, looks at the crowd and he's like, own it. Own it. And just, like, in the whole crowd, like, audible gasp of like. And they thought we did this on purpose. That, like, we wanted to own the crisis and we had Chris Cox. We did not do that on purpose. But I thought that that advice, that was the vulnerability in the leadership of, like, look, we are in a crisis. Whether or not we admit it, it is true. And I think what I learned there was like, you just gotta tell people the truth. The thing that you can say is, like, we're gonna get through it, even if we don't know exactly how. And Alex is not gonna like this. But it reminds me of there's this story about Duke basketball that comes back from 92, when Coach K is in the huddle when they're playing against Kentucky and duke gets down 2, 2.1 seconds to go or get down 1, 2.1 seconds to go, and we're fucked. And apparently what he said in the huddle was, we're gonna win. And he's like, whether you completely believe that or not, you gotta get that into the huddle. So I kind of think the idea of, like, this is bad, but we're gonna win. I think that's like an important leadership piece. Like, acknowledge that it's bad, but also tell him, like, we're gonna get through it. I left that Duke story short.

I know. I think Kentucky beat Utah in the round before that.

Yeah, nobody remembers that. You know, Keith family is one of.

Our moments of glory. I don't think there's anything wrong with a leader being okay about not having the answer. I would much prefer the leader saying, I don't totally know the plan yet, but exactly that. Like, I can promise you, like, I'm doing everything I can to figure it out way better than the leader who pretends, you know, that we're just gonna keep doing the same thing and this is gonna be okay.

This dude, this lady. This lady doesn't know what you're talking about. Yeah.

You know, like, so I, I, I don't have a problem with that. I do think the power of then a great team and hopefully if you collecting great people and personnel is like, I do like confidence and momentum and those kinds of. I think that's real. And I think, like, being around.

Your.

Great teammates, I think can rub off and help you in Those dark times and the troubled times.

One thing, I don't think I told you guys this, but Mike Moritz told me one time that the best way to recruit a great engineer is to tell them that the problem is extremely difficult and tell them how hard it is. He's like, because all of the best ones, they're smart, but they also have. They're ambitious and they have big egos and they're like, that problem's not that hard. I could figure that out. And so the Jedi mind trick that the best founders, best leaders do is they emphasize how difficult the problem is as a pull in for the person because they draw more ambitious people. I think about that all the time, right. Which is like, that. It's like a bat signal to the kinds of people you want who are around there, which is like, oh, yeah, this is hard, but we'll figure it out.

I do this trick with my kids all the time. I'm like, those kids from Marin are going to kick your ass. I like that they are going to work you over and a little bit again, that edge that we always talk about. And again, I do think that's a little bit where you can snap out of a confidence issue. Right.

What do they say when you say that to him?

He laughs at this point.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I do, I do think that's real. Again, like, I do think you can, you can put in place systems and things and protocols to like, you know, to help you in those moments like that.

Right?

Like, to be, to get to be the underdog. Right? To play free.

Play free, baby.

Like, and again, that's like, probably at the crux of this when you, when you lack confidence is that you're not exactly playing. You're playing scared, and there's nothing worse. Like, the thing I hate most in life is, like, certainly looking at my kids and I can tell that they're holding onto something or like, you know what I'm saying? Or that they're incompetent or they're in their own head. But so often, like, I don't think those are mantras or things that we tell each other.

If a teammate's in a funk, they've lost their mojo. Have you. Do you have examples or stories of when you've gotten them helped get somebody out of it? Because that's actually like, a really good thing to do, you know, like, for.

Me, like, as a quarterback, like, I'm just so reminded about, like, like receivers. Like, every receiver at some point is going to, like, have some drops and, and if one's in a big moment, in a big game, you know, like, inevitably, right? Like, I could just tell these receivers, like, I can just watch the next several catches and know, even in practice, like, man, this guy's. He's not feeling it, you know? And I think, is it true when.

You go back to a receiver after a drop that matters?

Yes.

I always hear this is like, telecast. Oh, no, he went back to him. He's shown his confidence. Does that really matter or was he just open that play?

No, I think it's very real. And a lot of it, like, sometimes isn't even the quarterback's decision. Like, Andy Reid was the best at this. Like, when a guy was struggling, like, he was going to find a way to get you the ball immediately, right? Like, something easy, something quick. And even as a quarterback, I think he always felt that for me, like, sometimes, like, maybe when I was struggling, like, I could always tell by, like, the first 15 because he'd be like, sweet, like, the first several plays. Like, I feel like there's a lot of, like, good completions in here. Like, you know, like, yeah, like, easy.

Kind of like that.

Easy passes. But he's, you know, and it no different. Like, again, like, I think Andy, I think one of the things he's going to go down for is, like, he is like the king of second chances. Like, he doesn't hold on to stuff. He doesn't give up on guys, you know, and as a coach, this is like the Dan Campbell effect on Jared Goff, right? Like, this guy was thrown away in that trade. Not good enough for McVay. They get Stafford, they win the super bowl, and, like, look what Dan Campbell and Detroit have done around Jared Goffin. Like, they believed in him, right? And I think to have leaders and teammates that do that is important in those moments. And for me, as a quarterback, it was always. I knew when guys were struggling, I'd go to him, like, man, know this. I'm going to keep slinging it to you.

I like that.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it is not affecting me. I'm going to keep slinging it. Yeah, you just keep doing your thing, man. Like, you know, like, I just always wanted my teammate know that it hasn't wavered my faith in you. And. And I do know this, that. And I was the same way, like, when I got traded to Kansas City, like, I was certainly the throwaway from San Francisco, right? Like, they moved on to cap, and it was kind of a pivotal kind of point in my career. And like to have all of a sudden, Andy believed in me, right? Like, you're good enough, man. We're going to go do this thing with you. And then the city of Kansas City who like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they were like open arms, like, you know, and so, you know, one man's trash is another man's treasure. And it like, it, it changed me.

You know, Unfortunately, I think when you know, you have talent on a team and they're underperforming, maybe because of lost mojo, that person gets a little more loving in tlc, right? Because you know, like, look, look, dude, we need you.

All right?

So you know, maybe some of the walk ons who are struggling, they're not going to say, you know, sorry, Andy Borman, sorry. So, all right, we love you. But you know, it reminds me of, you know, Jason Williams, you know, Jay Williams, who, you know, was one of the, one of the great basketball players, you know, in the last 40 years and was just a dynamo at the time. He's a much more confident guy now, but at the time, I guess he really suffered from a lack of confidence.

And.

He was, I think, fortunate to have strong upperclassmen around him who took him under his wings. And we got you, man, but like, we need you to be, you know, to be J. Will. And we believe in you and you, you can do it. And, and, and like, you never think that about him, but like, we saw him in the locker room, we saw, we knew that there were these times where he just had this like hang dog look on his face. And Coach K would actually take video of J. Will after being missing shots or turning the ball over. He, his shoulders would slump and he would say, son, this is bad body language. And like, if I can see this, guess what? You know, Marilyn's seeing this and like, oh, Jay Will, he lost his mojo. All right, so, you know, we need you to, to be confident and, and so like, we were taught to fake it till you make it, you know, when it comes to mojo. And it's a funny thing when you tell yourself internally, like, no, no, I'm confident, I'm a good player, yada, yada yada, Even if you don't really, really believe it and you just start to act that way and your shoulders are back and you stand up straight, good things start to happen.

You know, one of the little things that I do with people, you guys know, like my leadership philosophy is like demanding and supportive. Like, it's not just one, you have to be both. And I Think that, like, sometimes somebody needs the pat on the back, the arm around them. Sometimes they need the. Like, I need you to be better. Right. And you can be better, but, like, you know, this is not up to what you're doing, what you can do for us, right? So I think that what you said of, like, the. The J. Wilma's kind of cool. Of like, we need you to be J. Will. That's demanding. But, like, we got you. One of the things I do is little thing. I just kind of remind people that are good. I just like, remind them like, you know, you're my guy. Right? And like, man, woman, whatever. Just like those words like, you know, you're my guy. And I think that I know. I feel good when somebody says that to me who I respect. And I just kind of like, almost as like a. Like a. Just like a nervous habit, just, like, walk by, somebody put my hand on the shoulder. You know, you're my guy. Right? And I don't know, I think it helps. I think the same thing of, like, I'm gonna keep slinging, you know, I don't have the. Like, I'm gonna keep sending you this. Right. Like. But, like, I think that language. Say it again.

Memos.

Yeah, exactly. Memos. Models, you know, whatever it might be. But I actually. I'm, like, proud of doing that. Of just kind of like reminding people that I care about, independent of how they're doing, especially if they're doing bad.

The two leading stressors of people, okay, as human beings, the two things that stress us out the most. Uncertainty. Number two. Social judgment.

Huh.

Those are the two most important factors in our raising and lowering our stress level. So, like, what you're doing by just saying, hey, you're my dude. You're my dudette.

Yeah, totally. Right?

That's like, affirmation of that social judgment. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. And just by that simple act, you're lowering the. The cortisol levels down.

You know, this is like your chatter deal, right? Like the guy or the people that bring energy. Yeah. You know, to work and lift people up.

Social judgment. If you let people know that, hey, we got you, you're part of this. We're not. We're not going to ask you to walk to the edge of the village and keep walking.

Yeah. All right.

Preferably, you know, you're safe. You're in a safe.

The funny thing in the sports world that I think kind of profound, like, makes this even bigger. Sorry, but, like, you could play A game and tell me if it's different in basketball, Shane, like after the game, we're probably only rehashing like the eight bad plays, you know, like we could have won. And certainly there's a bunch of great times where you did your job and maybe there's some plus plays where you, you know, you really did exceptionally well. But like, typically, and this is just kind of the coaching mentalities, you come in and it's like we're. We're just. We're grinding on the eight ones, though, that like, they gotta be better. And part of that is healthy, but part of that I think can also. This is what can wear you down, right? And you don't hear often enough. And I don't think we tell each other often enough kind of what you're talking about. Like, again that chatter. And I got you, you know, like.

By the way, we're like actively working on that at Sequoia, really actively. Because it is a place that dwells. It's like had success for a long time and it's a super. Like, it very much subscribed to the Andy Grove. Like only the paranoid survive. And so there's massive dwelling on anything that's imperf. Right. And like not enough or maybe we forgot the value judgment. Like not a lot of celebration of success.

Right.

And I think that there is this observation of like, we. We got it. Some of the newer blood actually is like, hey, listen, like, you got to do a little more of that. It's got to be that, like, when something good happens, like, take a minute and talk about it and you know, we can learn a lot from those too, you know. And I think that, yeah, we're like actively trying to get better at like having some moments.

But who. Who has celebrated? Well, who's. Who has celebrated appropriately? Like, like our parents. Yeah, you know, the boomer generation. It was okay, I'm putting my nose down. What's next?

Totally Gen z with the TikTok videos. Are they celebrating? Well, well, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Right back to like what you guys were talking about, about when you try to like elevate someone's confidence. If you listen to the answer to Patrick's question on Invest, like the best, the ending one of what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? They basically fall into two categories as far as I could tell. One is something family, right? Like something like real family. And the other one is basically being given a chance or being like, really seen. Like what people consistently say is like, well, like you know, I didn't necessarily deserve this, but someone, like, they saw something in me, right? And then they gave me a chance. And it is interesting on the, like, I believe in you. And you go back like, that question is, what is the kindest thing anyone has ever done for you? And one of the consistent answers beyond, like, my mom sacrificed a lot, was like, somebody professionally saw something in me, believed in me. You think about, like, what you're doing for somebody. You know, when you do that, it's crazy. So when you say, like, who celebrates? Well, there is a company. I forget actually the name of it, but there was a company who the CEO would give out literal get out of jail free cards, right? To people that were really, like, low in the organization when they did something good. Being like, look, I want you to take risks, okay? And you know what? I'm gonna give you this card, right? You do something and mess it up.

Not out of prison.

Not out of prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, you do something and it's like, you mess it up. Pull out this card. You have my permission.

Yeah.

I want you to do it.

That's a great idea.

I want you to play free and, like, that's cool, you know?

And I do think that's a great role to lead her.

When you're dealing with people who've lost their mojo or their confidence, when do you decide it's the time to innovate? When's the time to go back to basics?

I could be wrong, but I'm like, the answer that jumps to my head is like, this is a go back to basics answer. This is human stuff. When someone loses their confidence, it is not like, I need a innovative way to get them back. It is what you said of social acceptance, lack of uncertainty or whatever, or the highest respect I think you can pay someone is to tell them the truth. And so I think it's okay even if you start with like, look, I know you're playing like. We both know you're playing like shit right now. But what, you know, what you think is that you're always going to play like shit. I know you're going to get out of this and here's what we're going to do, right? So I think it's back to basics. And I think the thing that's lacking in most situations is, like, true, like, human interaction and, like, empathy and actual, like, understanding of what the other person's going through. My, like, semi hot take is I actually think that when the leader gets it wrong on trying to get someone's mojo back. They're thinking about themselves rather than that person they're worried about like losing their own job or looking bad themselves rather than actually trying to help the other person. And I think that's like people can sniff through that.

They can tell, I think a thousand percent. It's about fundamentals and process. Like that's what you go back to, that's what you lean on. I think when you're. And the hard part is I think when you do become unconfident or you're rattled like so often, it's about you're obsessed with an outcome, right? And I do think just what you're saying, you've got to get yourself back to really focused on the process. And that's always around fundamentals, always, right. And focusing back on those and turning your attention away from just obviously such an outcome based deal, which I think will in anything is not healthy. Right? You don't ever want to live in that kind of space.

The time I remember from my career that I lost my confidence the most was the lowest point in my career. I was 12 years into my NBA career, okay? And I was the power forward for the Miami Heat, okay? You know, we invented small ball. I was the small in the ball. All right, So I was a 215 power forward. I was guarding guys, you know, 240, 270 pounds beat the hell out of me. But I had one equalizer and I shot the three ball very, very well. And so that year I was a starting power forward, played 80 games, you know, save LeBron James from banging on all these guys like David west and Joe Kim, Noah, Carlos Boozer. And I shot a career best, you know, 43% from the three point line. I was on fire. All right? We'd won the championship the year before, playing this way, going for a second back to back championship with the Miami Heat. So feeling good. Well, when the playoffs started, I was exhausted, banging all these guys. I mean, just I had no legs and it was reflected in my shooting. And at one point in the playoffs, I think I was 4 for 28 in the three point line. Okay? And so you talk about losing Mojo, man. Like I was embarrassed. I felt I was letting my guys down and you know, consequently I saw my playing time just go down, down, down, down. I play game six of the Eastern Conference finals against the Indiana Pacers. I play like four minutes, okay? So I, I see the writing on the wall, okay? And so I go to coach Spoelstro Spo before the game, game seven of Eastern Conference Finals. The game to get us back to the NBA Finals. And I say, hey, look, dude, I know I've been, I've owned it. I've. I've been horrible. I can't make a shot. I'm four for 28. But I promise you that, like, this is what I'm built for. Game 7. This is why you brought me here. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna do it, okay? I'm gonna do it big. And so SPO says, you know, you know, this is me just trying to pump myself up. So I'm trying to talk a big game. I feel like, like I'm like a worm. I feel like horrible. So I'm like, well, maybe if I just, you know, fake it till I make it, it'll work. And so SPO goes, you know, I know, Shane, that that's what you're about. So I go home that night, I'm like, okay, Badier's back, back, back. You know, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do, but I get in the game, I'm gonna do something, and so I'll go home. Extra fish oil, Wheaties. I'm feeling good in warm ups. Like, it's my time, baby. It's my time. So game starts, I come off the bench. First quarter comes and goes. I don't get in the game. All right, Halftime rolls around. I still have my warm up jacket on. I haven't gotten the game. All right? So he's like, oh, suppose he's, he's waiting for a special moment for me. I know it. I know, I know it. Third quarter comes and goes, no playing time. Fourth quarter, we're up like 30 points, like four to go. You know, it's obviously, we're going to win and go back to play the spurs in the finals. And who's the only person not to get in that game that day? Me. And so it was the first game in my entire career from Birmingham YMCA bowl to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals, I had the words DNP CD next to my name, which stands for did not play. Coach's decision, right? So the first time ever, ever, ever, ever, on any level, a coach said, shane, our best chance of winning doesn't involve you for one second. And so you talk about losing your mojo. Holy cow. Like, I was crying. I was literally crying, we're going back to the finals. And I felt so selfish that, like, I'm crying because I'm like, is this it. Is this how my career ends? This is how I go out. You know, I'm 35 years old at the time, and I'm like, this is so undignified for, like, the run I've had. And so I went home that night, drank a lot of beer, sang karaoke with my wife, and I show up the next day.

Billy Gene.

Yep. Well, yeah, I was a little better that night. And, you know, I come to the gym, I'm like, you know what? My entire career has not been based on whether I'm able to make shots or not. And so my value to the team is like, I'm just. I'm going to be the best teammate I can be. So I'm going to prepare. Like, I'm going to play. I'm going to get my teammates prepared. Like, I'm going to play, going to stay ready, because if. If I get my chance, I'm going to make a difference. And so I don't really play the first three games of the finals. And game four, I get in for second. Game five, I get into the mix and I actually banking a three pointer and I get, you know, the Bronx cheers from the crowd, and it's like, oh, yeah. Badier finally made a shot. And I look up, I'm like, it's a sign. It's a sign. And during this whole process, one of my old coaches, Jeff Van Gundy, was the lead color commentator for the series. And he would come up to me before the game, he's like, like, dude, you're the. You're one of the toughest guys I've ever coached. Like, it's a matter of time before you make shots. Like, just keep doing what you're doing.

And like, oh, that's cool. I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, Spo didn't say anything. You know, they were trying to win championship. So it was like, if you can't help us, you're hurting us. You're. You're kind of Persona non gratis. But Van Gundy, Shoopy Brown came up to me, my old coach, and said, you can do this, man. Like, keep. Keep shooting. Keep shooting it, you know? And like, that was what I needed to hear. Game six rolls around. I make three three pointers. Game seven in the NBA Finals.

Right?

Something every kid dreams about. Okay? And we talk about how in golf, one little change in your swing changes everything. Well, I figured out before game five, when I banked that three pointer in that the ball was actually coming off like My, my ring finger. And so everything was like, kind of like fading to the, to the right and so playing the fade. So I was just kind of like around. I'm like, I'm gonna try to shoot and hit the left side of the rim. And lo and behold, it worked. And I played like the flaw in my jump shot and I knew it wasn't a forever fix. I'm like, you know, I got three more games, like, if it works, like, great. So game seven, I'm out there in warm ups trying to hit the left side of the rim, and that thing is fading back into the middle of the rim. And I'm making shots. I'm like, all right, let's roll with it. And I get out there. The first time I catch the ball, first quarter, three pointer. Next time I catch the ball, three pointer again, first five shots, all three pointers, start the game five for five. All right, I end the game, NBA Finals game seven record, six for eight from the three point line, score 18 points, you win the championship.

Let's fucking go.

Let's go.

Let's go.

Let's go.

And then he retired as a fucking champion in the locker room, dropped the mic just like that's the story, Shane. We're sticking to it.

To be honest, again, like, I do go back to like, what I was talking about, like, every time you think it's like a dark moment and like right around the corner, right, like again, like the stupid farmer saying, right? Like, well, maybe. And then wham. It's like the greatest moment.

So it taught you how tough you were. It had you reaffirm for sure, you know what you were about.

I think a couple things that stick out to me that are like, really important in that conversation. One is the idea of change, right? Like, you're like, well, I can't just keep doing the same thing, right? So like, even the shot thing, like, it's a little thing and I'm going to try something different, right? And then I think also the big thing there again is focus. Like, even. And I'm, and I'm specifically talking to the left side of the rim. Like, you weren't, you weren't pressing, you weren't thinking about.

Totally, totally.

You were locked in on the left side of the rim. Like, I think even just like, and I know it's. This is. We're actually talking about like a very tangible thing and like, but like in life, like, again, I've been like, I've been there where you press and you're pressing and you're thinking about the, like, all the bad stuff that can happen. Like, you've got to be able to return your focus to something, like, tangible. And again, to go back to what you're talking about, like a return to the basics, a return to the process and those things. Right. Like, exactly that. The process, literally the process of shooting. And, like, I'm going to be locked in on this thing. And it gave you a focus point, right. Like, again, your mind, you didn't let it. It couldn't wander. Right.

When this thing happens, you need somebody who is like a people leader basically, to be able to help you get out of it. Right. It's not the X's and O's. I actually think this is like, your point. On, like, a lot of times the people that get the coaching jobs, they don't. They haven't demonstrated the thing that will make you a good coach. They demonstrate the thing that'll make you a good coordinator. And in. I'll tell you, in my world, a lot of times the people that get the leadership job, they demonstrated what they could do before rather than actual leadership is what's going to take of leading excellent people and getting them to follow you. And I actually think that there's this entire conversation at some point about what are the things people should be looking for when they're trying to find a leader that allows you to find Dan Campbell.

Right.

Rather than just the person who did the other thing best, you know? And I actually think we look for what's easy to measure rather than what actually matters, you know, a lot of the time.

Absolutely. Like, I couldn't agree more. And like, even in the. In the business world, it's no different, like, the idea guy versus totally. And. And you say, like, the people leader, like, that is leading. Yeah, Right.

Like, I was wondering why you were smiling. Yeah, that's the point.

And like, I don't care how good a strategist you are, I don't care how good a schemer or, again, an idea guy. Like, that's not building a team, and you know what I'm saying? So, like.

Like, it wasn't the fucking triangle for the Bulls. Right? Like, that's not the thing. Right. It was that Phil Jackson was like, michael, you're not gonna shoot all the time. We're gonna be a team, and I'm gonna go down with this. Like, you know, and I think that it's the willingness. What you said at one point of, like, he knew that Scottie Pippen listened more when he had his hand on his shoulder. Like that's the stuff that people look for. And again, like in investing all these private equity firms and KKR has been a notable exception to this. But the line is they just promote the best investor to the top job when the founders step down. And those people are not necessarily the best leaders. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, what's going on? It's like, what do you mean what's going on? You didn't promote a leader.

Yep. Well said. Well said.

Yeah.

All right.

So I think that on the confidence side, Shane, I will tell you, I never knew the Van Gundy and Hubie Brown like contributions. That's cool. Like coaches that mattered to you. Helping even when they're not. You're a coach.

Yep.

You know, a sign of a true goo guy.

Yeah.

Sign of a true guy. Yeah. All right, good. I think we wrapped it.