The Dark Side of Athletic Competition - [Glue Guys, EP.26]

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Nobody has ever come back from this type of thing. That is interesting because like we talked about like the negative of the made up competitor. In this case there's actually a huge positive.

But we are back. New setup. So impressed by the organization, the blue guys, the evolution.

We're leveling up, Shane. Leveling up.

20, 25.

What's next? Hologram. Give me a hologram to be with you guys and then I will be thoroughly impressed.

It's coming, it's coming. There's no stopping AI Shane. At some point you're going to have, you know, we're going to be in the metaverse and it's just, it's happening.

That's our next growth round. That's our series. Series C. We're not quite there yet. We're still, we're early on.

We're bootstrapped.

The, the feedback I get from our podcast is that you guys seem like such good friends and you're super close and we are, but like we're bicoastal on the setup.

I'm actually pretty optimistic if this is like the new base case. Right. Because if two of us are together, we always worried that it was going to like make the other one not on equal footing. I mean, we got badier on a huge tv. Basically life size.

Yes.

Right. Now, like, the setup works very well with what we got.

So I want to talk. I want to riff on the theme that we talked about earlier in the year. Let's talk about competition, and more specifically, who is your competition? And I like that. I like that question. I like how it was framed. Is the answer internal? Is it external? And it made me think about what you said, Robbie, earlier in the year is like, well, before you think about who you're playing against, you know, what game are you even playing?

Yeah, the what game are you playing? I think is a very underrated question, as you guys know, because I think that when you're a competitive person, like, we all are, and I presume, like most of the listeners are, you just kind of like, go play whatever's in front of you and you really try to win. And I think it's actually pretty dangerous because you can let inertia take you to a place that you actually have no intention of going. So an example would be that you really want to get promoted in your job, but you never stop to think about whether it's actually the job that you want to be doing or not, right? And your focus is on the wrong thing. It's about winning this game, but you don't even care about the game. And so I do think this idea, Shane, of like, okay, define what success is. Define what you are trying to accomplish is actually probably very important and related to that. It's like, once you have that, it's more obvious who you're competing against. And so on this question of, like, for me, who am I competing against? I think that, like, the. It's probably evolved over time, you know? Like, I think when I first started, my mindset was definitely, like, okay. When I started at McKinsey, there was eight kids in the. In the class. Like, you know, I'm not super proud of this, but my first instinct when I met them was definitely, like, size them up and be like, okay, I gotta be the best one of these eight. You know, Like, I don't think that I was like, in the thought of, like, I'm competing against myself. I want to be the best I can be. I think your first thought is, like, scarcity mindset. You know, I need to get the best job coming out of here. I think that over time, the competition is more like some standard that you have for yourself, right? And I think that's healthier but harder to define. And, you know, we should talk about that evolution. But I hope now that I'm competing.

Against that, they're kind of asking the same thing, right? Like, the what game are you playing and who are you competing against? I think are kind of philosophically asking the same question. I get, like, the crux of the question. But part of me, though, is also torn. I think it's very clear. Like, I just think back to, like, when I was in high school. I can still name you. There's this. You guys heard of this elite 11 quarterbacks. Yeah, because the top 11 quarterbacks, your senior year of high school, right? Your class, like, and I can still tell you the 11 quarterbacks.

Really?

Who are they?

Yeah, who are they?

Oh, it's Vince Young. It's Troy Smith. It's Drew Olson. It's Trent Edwards. They went here to Stanford. Like, Ben Olson was the number one guy in the country. Like, I remember him. He grew up. He was in, like, la. Like, Tyler Palko. Like, I. Again, yeah. Like, this was for. I was 17 years old, right? And this ate at me. It ate at me, right? Like. Like, I wondered. I didn't. I never went to a camp. I didn't know any of this. Again, I've, you know, I told you guys about my high school experience, like, not being recruited and felt like I was overlooked and wondering if I was good enough. And again, I would hear about these guys, like, calhai Sports and these, like, you know, it was like, you know, early days of Internet. So you would, like, hear about these. These guys and all the stats they were doing, you know, throwing for, like, just ridiculous amounts of yards and touchdowns, and I just wondered how I stacked up. And again, it really, like, that seed planted in me like, that. I. I definitely wonder. And it. It, like, it was there, and it was there when I went to college, right? And then I got a chance to play against these guys, and I was just, like, so determined that I proved that I could, man, I could play with these guys. And it was very clear.

It's kind of weird, though, for a quarterback, Alex, though, because you have no bearing on what the other guy is doing.

For sure. But, like, I used to. I didn't know that.

I get. I get that, like, that, like, occur to you, like, are you going firing your defense up? Like, dude, you got to stop this guy. You know, I'm trying to beat his ass. I understand, like, the measuring stick.

But, like, it was more that it was the measuring stick.

It goes back like, what. What game were you playing?

Yes.

What game were you playing back then?

So my point was that I was A peer. Right. Of that group that, like, I, like, that's, that's the game. Not necessarily that I would beat them head to head or anything like that. More that I belong. And it's certainly what drove me all the way through, you know, again, my college days.

And.

But it was so funny. And you talk and I think you hit on something. Ravi is like that. It does just change. It constantly changes. Because then when I got drafted, I was adrift for a long time. Like, I had no idea who I was competing against at that point. Like, I, like, again, like, I've told you guys, like, haunted by, like, oh, Joe Montana and Steve Young and the number one pick and Peyton Manning and, like, but, like, that's not actually who I was competing against. And then I'm on the field and I'm running out there. Like, it just, I feel like at that point I didn't have competition and not in a good way. Right. Like, I, again, I feel like I was kind of lost and distracted and it took me, like, a few years to actually, like, find that competition again. And so, like, and which found. Which gave me direction. Does that make sense?

Totally.

And so I do get the existential question of, like, are you competing against yourself or other people? Like, and, and it's funny because I did get to that place finally. Like, that's the whole. I was, you know, obviously in New Orleans for Super bowl and just constantly get asked about Patrick Mahomes and why you mentored him. And I'm like, honestly, like, at that point, like, I really was just trying to find my potential, like, whether or not Patrick was there. Like, if I couldn't play good football, like, they were gonna find somebody, like, I like. And I don't know if that comes with age and perspective, but I don't know. So I guess I, I, I still feel like I'm still kind of torn because I like having. Yeah, I like having an enemy.

Yeah.

Like, in some ways, like, I think that's great. Like, it does drive you and it gives structure.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

It's very clear. It's very defined.

Yes. You know, what about you, Shane?

I think I've always been driven by external competition. And, you know, more specifically, I still remember when I was a kid, I used to put, like, you know, all these quotes, all these sports quotes on my wall and of people that I looked up to. You know, I remember in my bedroom, I think still today, there's a picture of, like, Nick Van Exel, and it was a Reebok ad, and it Said, like, you know, you might be impressed by that, you know, 50 foot shot I hit in the game the other night. You should have seen the other 50 I made in practice the night before, you know, and the other one I had on my wall. And it stuck with me because this is what drove me. And I was terrified. I was terrified of this person. All right? It was a ghost. And it said, you know, somewhere right now there is someone who's practicing and putting in the work and waiting for that time when they meet you, and when they do, they'll beat you. And like, that was like, oh, shit. Like, I think whoever said this is right. Like, someone is working right now. When they meet me, they're gonna kick my ass because I'm not working. And so, like, that was like my main motivator to, like, go to the gym every day, wake up early, train, like, do what I had to do because I was so SC of that. That external threat, that faceless person, that ghost, right? And there wasn't one guy, you know, I could name all the guys on my McDonald's team, but I was so scared of that. That one, that one player.

Did you know all the guys on your McDonald's team? Yeah.

You know, I've played against those guys since I was 13.

I relate to the ghost thing because. And I ask, why, if you knew those McDonald's guys? Because for me, I didn't know the elite 11 guys. And they essentially were ghosts. Like, at that point, like, they were like. Again, I just read about them and I conjured them up in my head, these names, and they were, like, larger than life. And so they kind of did. To your point, like, it did hot in the back of my head, right? Like, that was the driver Again, I think if I'd have been around them and maybe gone, you know, like, I had been able to size them up, y. You know, like, maybe that would have changed things a little bit, but it was almost bigger. I almost made them the worst thing imaginable.

Like, they were, you know, what's more productive? Is it more productive to be externally motivated, or is it more productive to be internally motivated? And what. What.

What are the.

What are the ramifications of that?

Well, so this is interesting. I was, like, thinking back on my own career, and actually, as I think about it, like, when I was at McKinsey, there was a guy two years ahead of me who had gone to KKR. And that was my standard. This guy, his name is Matt King. I was like, okay, McKinsey, Chicago. He went and got this job at KKR, people always talked about how good he was. I was like, I gotta be like him, cool. I go to KKR and then I was in Capstone and then the deal guys, the investment guys, like, whichever those guys were, I had one of those in mind. I was like, I gotta be like that, right? And then I guess to your guys's point, there were people like, you know, then when I went over to the investment side, there was people that had left and gone to like Scott Wagner went to Godaddy. Okay, cool. I got to be like that. So I definitely had people and these are people I liked a lot of the time. But like, I had somebody who was like ahead and was defined. So. Shane, I think to your point on productivity, it's pretty fucking productive to have somebody that's like, you know, in your mind that you kind of know whether they're real or they're a ghost, right? I think it's very tactically productive, you know, to have that. I think if you really take the long term view, it's going to have to come from somewhere inside. And so I almost view it as like a duration thing, which is, I think that you can get a lot done by having somebody on the bullseye or whatever of like that, you know, but at some point you're not going to have that or I don't think it's healthy at a certain age to have that. And I think at some point you have to become internally motivated.

Do you think that that only comes by going through that though, to like ever get to a place where you're only internally motivated? Which I agree probably from a, a larger life perspective is better. But like you as a kid, like, yeah, no way, you, you can't start to think about your potential and where that is in life. And like, I want to be the best at something. Unless you're like at first you have to like win your little pond, like your classroom, like, oh, I'm the best in the class, I'm the smartest or something, you know, and like then you gain confidence to look at the little bigger pond and like, you know, like, I don't think you just all of a sudden from a, you know, from a young age or just, you guys.

Are gonna laugh at this. Okay, so when I was in sixth grade, they took a bunch of the kids that were in like the high level classes and they were like, let's have everybody take the sat, okay, so in the sixth grade in my like town, a bunch of kids, you were.

Like, A gate kid, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. So they had a bunch of us take the sat, and there was like, our whole district, so my middle school and then a couple of other middle schools. And anyway, they did, like, the reception for, like, who did well, and I got the second highest score.

Okay?

Now the reason for this is not. It's not a good thing. Okay, hold on. The second highest score, and the guy who got the number one score, I mean, he whipped. But I was the second highest score, tied with, like, 10 people. And the guy with the number one score was. He kicked everyone's ass. He had, like 200 points higher in sixth grade. He was just, like, off by himself. Okay, Anyway, I still remember the look of just disgust on my dad's face of just like, I cannot believe that this dude just, like, just smoked you. Okay? And. And like, again, I'm like, with this, like, whole crew of other people at number two, and like, there's ten of us, diver two, and this dude's number one. Okay, Anyway, so I still got this. Okay? And I was at dinner last night with two people who, like, work in tech, and somehow this story came up. But, like, what are the different ways parents motivated you? Were they supportive? Were they this? Were they that? Anyway, so I tell this story and I was like, you know, the thing that's turned out to be good is this person ended up in Silicon Valley and like, actually, like, noticeably like somebody who's, like, around. And like, I later, I was so relieved to find that he was, like, actually smart. Okay? Like, in life. And these people who work in tech, they're like, oh, what's his name? And I say the guy's name and like, that was the guy that beat you. Like, he's way smarter than you. Like, you shouldn't feel bad about that guy. Like, he's, like, known to be smart now. And I was like, I wonder if it's too late for me. Like, call my dad, you know, right now and be like, dad, Holden, this dude who smoked me in sixth grade, he's like, noticeably smart. You shouldn't have felt bad about it. But anyway, that was definitely somebody else who was in my brain. But he was so far ahead that I couldn't even compete with him. Anyway, sorry for the digression.

Ravi, how do you really feel about that? Did that impact you at all? Are you still holding on to some.

Things from 16 years, from being 11 years old?

You took the SAT as an 11 year old?

Yeah, a bunch of kids in my class did.

How many times did you take An SAT before, like, high school once. Okay.

Just the sixth grade time. They just, like, wanted to establish something.

I just want this for just my own personal material to make fun of you. What was the race of Holden.

What was hold. Holden Karnovsky was a white guy.

Okay.

Yeah.

Did he beat you in math?

He beat me in both. And he beat everybody in both. And he just. And I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I wish I could take a picture of, like, the way my dad was, like, holding the paper, you know, after hearing Holden's score, just like this. I cannot believe this idiot.

Well, obviously, I'd stay with. So, like, you know, you're. You know, the ghosts that we were afraid. You were afraid of the same ghost. You're afraid of Roman Karnowski, right?

Holden Karnovsky. But yes.

Yeah, you know, you. Like, we all had these ghosts that were. That were battling. And, like, I worked. You know, look, we all worked really hard, and I was very, very internally motivated. I didn't ever have to have someone, you know, tell me, hey, go work out. Go wake up, eat right, go lift weights. I. I just did it right. But, like, I felt like that was part of the job, right? I never looked at it as, like, okay, I gotta. I gotta be the best I can be. It was kind of implied because I just want. I wanted to make the league, and I wanted to have a nice car, a nice house, and. And that was the. The. The ghost I was. Was chasing. And so, like, now, like, yeah, I think it sounds, like, very wizened and advanced. Say, no, no. The enemy is within. Yeah, totally. You know, I think the enemy's always been external.

Shane, what were the differences? Like, if I take three phases, like your high school youth phase, Right. Like, where was it again, to go back to your peers? Like, is that how you thought about it? Or again, you mentioned the league? Like, you've thought about going to the league since you were young. Was it more of those guys? Like, did you envision yourself competing and working to get to that level? And then, like, when you were at Duke, kind of. Same question. And then again, also as a pro, like, does that make sense? Like, did it change? Or, like, when you were a kid, were you thinking about, like, Charles Barkley and Michael Jordan? Like, you know, that was, like, over.

My head, you know? Like, I remember a buddy of mine took me to the palace of Auburn Hills, and I saw Michael Jordan play live. And we were. We had, like, second row seats. That was the first time I ever saw Michael Jordan play.

Live.

And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, this guy's unbelievable. I mean, like, and I. I kept that ticket stub, so I'm like, this. That's who I want to be. Like, I want to be out there. Like, I never thought I'd be Michael Jordan, but, like, I want. I want to be out there on the court with. With, like, Michael Jordan. Like, I think I can do that, right? And my competition, whether it was in high school, whether it was in Duke, whether it was in the NBA, it was. It was the enemy for me was what I didn't know. That's what scared me. All right, what don't I know? What skill do. Do I not have that just hasn't been revealed yet, right? Like, what, is there some secret out there that. That I'm just. I'm just terrified that if I. If I come across it, it's gonna beat me. Like that. Like, that saying when I was a kid, like, somewhere. Somewhere someone's practicing and when they meet you, that they're gonna beat you, right? And so, like, that was. That was the enemy for me. I didn't know, all right? Like, I never played against Tracy McGrady in high school. And so, like, all I heard about was Tracy McGrady. You know, he was my classmate number, you know, top five player, and he's gonna go to the NBA. I never saw him play. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this guy might be like, like Jordan. Like, there's no way I can be that good Like Tracy McGrady, you know, and I finally play again, so I'm like, oh, he's really, really good. But it wasn't like, he wasn't this. This monster that I had never seen before, right? And the same thing happened when I got to. To college. Like, I don't know how NBA guys evaluate college players. Like, I got to do everything because I'm scared, like, they may knock me on my lack of athleticism and I'm not going to make it, right? And so it was. It was like a gap of, like, what I don't know is, like, what pushes me. And I would say that, like, even now, like, that's. That's what pushes me. And. And whether it's, you know, you guys laugh at my. My AI Bots that I. That I build and. And I'm orchestrated like, well, I need to know this. And it's what I'm scared that I don't know that's going to bite me in the ass at the end if.

You Take what you just said, Shane. Like, the fear of the unknown provides like a real enemy, if you really think about it. Right. Because you're always like, what don't I know?

And you're creating it like, it's all.

Exactly. It's all. The less confident you are in what that thing looks like, the more it's scary. Right. Because. And it's. And it's motivating because, you know, whatever. I think the thing that is reflected in the. If you. And by the way, it's like a constant battle to be, like, fighting against yourself rather than fighting against, like, some external thing. But I actually think that what it reflects is you just kind of realizing that you do know a lot about what's out there. Right. And so if you. My point to this is, like, let's say that you want to be a good dad. Okay? Forget about being a good professional. At some point, you have some idea of what a good father looks like. Right. And it's not an unknown standard. It's hard, but it's not an unknown standard. I don't think any of us. To me, look, it's like, well, I want to be like this person as a father, sort of like, look, it's within me. Either I'm going to do this well or not. Either I'm going to be there or not. But there is some known standard that we've arrived. Arrived at. And so it's like, now I just got to decide, am I going to do the things that make me good or not? The thing that's interesting is in the moments where we have external competition, a lot of it comes from, like, I don't really know how good they are. And therefore, like, I just keep going, keep going, keep going. But I think knowledge of the standard is actually a really important thing to figure out, to be able to compete against yourself. Because remember, on the NFL, in the NFL side, where you talk about Patrick wasn't my problem. My problem was whether I could play at this level or not.

And I knew what that looked like.

You knew what that level looked like?

Yeah. And I didn't early on in my career at all. I had no idea what it looked like up close.

Yeah. I think that's, like that. I always loved that story of you and Patrick where all of a sudden you end up with this amazing relationship and it's very legitimate because you're like, he's not the problem. The problem is, can I play well enough to be on one of the 31 spots or whatever. Right?

Yeah. To go Back to. I think that the start of, like, I think the external motivator oftentimes can be a greater motivator from, like, a productivity standpoint, again, because of the unknown. And oftentimes that unknown, you. You build that picture based on your own insecurities. Right.

Like, totally.

You know what I'm saying? Like, so it's unique to everybody because it's like whatever you're insecure about, like, that oftentimes is like, what this. This, like, ghost thing looks like.

Yes.

And it drives you and it can be consuming. Right. It can really push you and, you know, to a level of productivity, I think, to go do great things. But I think, again, like, oftentimes you've probably lost some perspective there. Right. Like, bigger picture pulled back.

Alex, how do you think of your. Towards the end of your career? You know, you've come back from this horrific leg injury, right?

Yeah.

You're at the end of your career. You know, you're not as good as you once were, right? Yeah. Just physically, you can't move the way you used to. You know, you're just a little older. It takes you a little longer to recover every day. So, like, where does that come into play? You know, athletes have a very different experience because we, you know, we die two deaths. But, like, how do you. How did you think about the external motivation or the internal motivation when. When your skills started to erode?

Yeah, it was. It was. Honestly, it's funny you bring that up. It was like, it was really hard for me to deal with my leg coming back and, like, putting on cleats and then again, obviously practicing and playing in games, especially because I was. I was the most affected by my mobility by far with my leg. And yet mobility was, like, one of my best strengths. My entire career is like. Like, what I could hang my hat on. Like, I never had to train mobility.

Like.

Like, it just.

I had that.

That was like, one thing I had always. And then all of a sudden that is gone. Right. And so definitely was kind of like a look in the mirror multiple times and, like, be honest with myself on, could I do this a different way? I think, Shane, the. For me to have the big motivator of, like, this leg injury, and nobody had overcome that. That challenge made that easier for me. Like, I. I do look at, you know, aging QBs and, like, Aaron and. And again, he had an injury that. But, like, he's, you know, he's 41.

He.

He's definitely declining. And like, does he want. This is a guy that's won four MVPs. And again like to your point, like he like the standard has been crazy high for him and is he willing to play at a lower level? And like. So for me, Shane, that I, I think because of the leg injury and like this, this like breaking down that wall or breaking through that wall of like I can do this helped me like from that standpoint. But it was really hard. Like I, I mean like trying to run with that brace on and drop foot in my leg. Like, I, like, I felt like I was like hobbling around. I was so embarrassed by it.

That took unbelievable amount of internal motivation to come back. Right. So like that, that puts Ruby and I to shame anything we had to go through.

I totally agree.

Just internally to find the fortitude to like throw that football on the first day of rehab. I mean, good lord, like that, you know, you're not, you're not, you're not trying. You're not thinking about, you know, Mahomes at that point.

No, no. But I was very self conscious. I'd not like. Yeah, it just was so different. Right. Like I, I definitely had to adapt. Right. Like that word is something that like again I, I think I took pride in at that point. Like I've got to adapt my game.

Yeah.

And it was, it was so weird to be that old.

Yeah.

I played football so long and like I got to adapt my game. And again, so much of it was like, well, stick me in the shotgun and like, you know, I can do these other things. I can beat you at the line of scrimmage, I can pick up protections, I can get the ball out and just like spit it and, and is that good enough to play winning football? But I'm like diminished, you know, it was like a lot of, a lot of emotions in all of that. But again, I think the thing that made that for me, I was able to overcome a lot of that stuff was again just this idea that like I never thought, I never thought I'd play football again. Everybody said I would never be able to play football again. And I'm freaking out here doing this. Right.

Nobody has ever come back from this type of thing. That is interesting because like we talked about like the negative of the made up emo, the made up competitor. In this case, there's actually a huge positive.

Right.

You creating this fictional thing. Right. I mean this fictional character of the person who couldn't come back from the leg injury, like, I'm going to beat that guy. I'm going to be the only one that's ever done that. All of a sudden there's like, so much goodness in your life that's created from that. And so I agree with you from earlier on, Shane, like, it's not as simple as, like, it's good or it's bad to be externally or internally motivated, because that's like crazy internal motivation. But you had to, like, create a fake enemy.

Ravi, is there any equivalent in business where internal or external motivation erodes so much that you're no longer effective as a. A business person?

Totally. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think in the job I'm in now, there's this guy who is amazing at a guy named Jim Goetz, okay, Who was a Sequoia partner for a long time. And he. He was the one who did the WhatsApp investment, you know, from a long time ago. And he's just legendary investor. And he has this language that's used a lot, which is, if you want to be good at this for a long time, you have to repot yourself multiple times. So what do I mean by that? Like, the world changes a lot. So the things that you did, that was a good investment five, five years ago. Like, it doesn't. Knowing that space well, doesn't matter anymore. Like, if you think about the moment we're going through right now, right? Like, AI is totally different. It's totally different. All the companies are different. The founders are different. The like. So, like, it used to be that a salesperson would start a company, then it was an engineer would start a company. Now it's a researcher starting a company. Like, your ability to evaluate whether that person can build the team. That's different. The technology that will win, super different. And your ability to win the investment. Like, you know, the business I'm in now is very competitive. Like, every. Every investment that's good has 25 people chasing it. And your ability to convince the founder that you're the best person and you're at the best firm to go and help them, that's like a constantly evolving thing. And so, Shane, I would tell you, like, it definitely diminishes. And the longer it's been since your last hit, the harder it is, right? And so the ability to, like, repot yourself and the motivation to repot yourself and to go start again and learn something new, you have to keep doing it. And that this, like, adaptability point is so real because all the advantages you had before all of a sudden are something somebody will use to deposition you. Wow. You know, they were good at SaaS. They're a software investor. You know, this is new. And so, you know, like for me, you know, the fact that I operated, sometimes people like, oh, like, you know, you don't want someone with operator who is an operator. You know, you want someone who actually has seen this before. So there is a constant adaptation and there is like a very real diminishing that's happening. And then related to that, you can get overconfident in your point of view. Like some of the stuff that I know from operating is kind of dated now. And if you don't go and keep on learning the stuff you're saying, somebody starts rolling their eyes at, I'm like, okay, yeah, I know, I know. I've heard that before. And so I don't know. Figuring out the timeless versus the stuff you gotta update is a forever thing in my business.

And do you learn these new skills, these new tools, because it'll make you a better vc or if you are you doing it because you know someone at a competing firm is doing it. Back to the external internal motivation. What's pushing you to learn those skills?

So I think that there's two very real different things. One of them is just being embarrassed to lose. And culturally, Sequoia is a place that it is unacceptable to lose. And so I'm not immune to that at all. I for sure am. It is some of the external competition of like, if you like something, you really, really, really do not want to be somebody. It's very embarrassing to walk into our building having like, you know, not want an investment that, you know, whatever, because it's effective. It's like you've been given everything what's wrong with you, you know, and that's like a very real, like external thing. I think the internal thing there is. It is very fun to work with the best founders in the world. That is like very motivating. It's very interesting you guys have been around some of these people as we've done things together. The best ones are so fun to be around because it's fun to be around excellence. So the thing that I would tell you, Shane, is some of the internal motivation, it's not about like, oh my God, I want to be the best VC or whatever. It's that the only path to be around the best entrepreneurs is to be at the, to be invested or around the best companies. And you need to know what that looks like. And you have to earn the right to have them pick you and pick the firm that you're at or whatever. And so like the. The most Fun that I have is when I'm with the portfolio companies that are the ones that are led by these incredible people. And the only path to doing that is to actually have learned it, know what you're talking about to some extent and have something to offer.

Do you think it's healthy that environment of like, losing is not acceptable? Right? Yeah, that is a very external right. Like there's no, hey, Ravi, we want you to reach your potential as an investor.

You guys don't get a second place ribbon at Sequoia. They don't, they don't handle second and third place trophies.

This is win, right?

Yes.

And two things like, do you think that's healthy and, or productive? And also. And from two viewpoints, obviously there's you, your viewpoint, but like, there's also the, the LPs.

Oh, for sure.

Right? For sure.

I think it's, I think it's very healthy for the LPs. Right. And I think that they're happy about that. You guys laughed. Shane, did you talk about the. Is there no second place ribbon? Doug Leone tells this great story. Doug Leone, who used to run Sequoia, tells this great story over and over again where he was like, there was some founder had come in and the founder was describing something they'd done in their past life and just said, you know, and I won second place at this competition. And Doug's like, we're not funding this guy. Like, you don't win second place of shit. Like, that's not, that's not the, that's not the verb that you use for getting second place. Like, that's not, that's not. No. And it was like. And he loves this story and like, who knows what this person got second place in? You know, it could have been like some like, international incredible competition where it's like number two in the world. But it's like, no, that verb is not. That's not the right verb for getting second place in something. So, like, it is very real in terms of, like, is it healthy? I don't know. Like, I just know it is. And you know what I would say cultures that are authentic, they work. Cultures that are, they are consistent.

Yeah.

You know, I think this is Shane's word. Like, Sequoia is very consistent and it's a very much like, you know what you're signing up for. You know, like, if you come, this is the way it is and we're not changing. But yeah, it's like a very real, very real.

Alex, how did you, how did you. After you Retired, finally. And you're. You're a business person now and a media star. You know, how did you fire up the internal motivation again? Right? You don't have a scoreboard like you used to.

Yeah, I mean, I do think you, you know, obviously, you sigh like, again, to go back to Ravi's like, you know, you size up the field. Like I again, in whatever I'm doing, dipping my toe in like, the private equity world here, you know, which has all been crossed over with Venture. And like, you size up the field. And for me, like, I'm. I don't, I don't look at these guys that have gone to, you know, HBs and are doing this, like. But there's certainly a lot of athletes that dabble in this, right? There's a lot of guys here that do this and try to do it. And some are, some are for real and some are pretenders, you know? And like, for, you know, for me, it's like, well, I know what I think of that. You know, those guys faking it. And I definitely don't want to be grouped with them, you know, like, like, that's not, that's not a. Again, I want to be with the, you know, these is the elite 11 guys over here, you know, the guys really doing it. And no different, like with espn.

I.

I couldn't have given two shits what these guys said when I was playing, right? Like, I didn't pay attention to that crap. And it, like, it was required. It was required, right, Shane? Like, I'm freaking in the arena, you assholes. Like, I don't give. I don't care what you guys say about me, especially towards the end of my career. And then definitely when I came back and played after my leg, like, you know, I've talked to you guys about that. Like, that was amazing freedom. However, now, like, these guys are my peers, right? And I do like live tv. Like, you better, you know, again, like, so I watch these guys, I pay attention to them. I know the guys that I like, again, the guys that I don't. And so you do it. Is this, like, sizing up the field? I'm still early in both of those journeys, though, Shane. You know, like, I think that if those were like, the two main things I had going right now of, of figuring out who I'm competing against and again, the game I'm playing, those are the same, Same question.

But I feel like Steve Young has been good for you.

Yes.

Like, his existence as like, super legit quarterback, now super legit investor partner Partner.

In a real, like, legitimate.

Exactly.

And on boards, he's like, this is.

Just, like, really playing the game at a very high level, right?

Yes.

And playing multiple games. To me, I feel like he's always somebody that I think of. Of, like, you thinking of, you know.

Yes, absolutely. Because they, like, you know, the Shane, like, ventures become, like, such a sexy thing for the whole world. Everybody's trying to get a part of Silicon Valley. There's all these athletes, like, looking for a handout. They want their name on a cap table, like, and that's all they really do, you know. And again, like, for me, like, well, I'm going to do this. I don't, like. Yeah, I don't want to.

I don't.

I don't want to be asking for favors. I'm not here to, like, you know, like, I want to know the stuff. And. Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, still trying to reevaluate that. Shane, like, you know, like, again. And even on, like, the TV side, like, I know what I want. I want to be authentic, you know, I want to be real. But I also. I will never go on TV unprepared. Right. And not know what the hell I'm talking about. Because I've seen guys go wing it and get up there.

The worst.

And it's like, this guy. This guy's never watched film. And, like, you know, is there something.

You have in your life that it's. It's 100% pure internal fatherhood and.

And being a husband, like, my role in the house, because they're. They're my offspring.

Yeah.

I need to be the best dad I can be for them. That is so different, totally, than, like, what your boys, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it is so unique to me. And then again with Elizabeth and, like, being a husband, I know, again, like, the best husband I can be. And I know what that looks like. And then again, like, that's just. You're just constantly trying to live up to that, you know, in a good way.

I actually think, honestly, Shane, you tell me. I think I 100% agree that, like, the canonical example of fatherhood, right? Being a great husband, I think being a good friend, honestly, that, to me, is internally motivated. Like, you know, why do you. Why do you call sometimes, right? Nobody. You're not doing it for anybody else. You're doing it because you're trying to care about the person. Like, what. You know what I'm saying? Like, the real relationships are the ones where, like. Yeah, you're just Doing it to do it well and because it needs to be done well, you know.

Shane, how about you flipping it on you like, as you, if you stepped away from basketball like right now, like, do you feel like you have an external motivator?

No, I don't. I don't. Because like, growing up I always thought I was kind of an odd duck. So I never really had role models. I just never thought that like my path was, was like anybody else. I'm sure it was, but I just never thought like a Mitch, a mixed kid growing up in the suburbs, you know, growing up, seeing what I saw, there's no one like me.

So I actually, by the way, Shane, you should continue. But I actually think that's still true. I still don't. In my, in all seriousness, I still think that, I don't know, you've like been around a while. Like, have you found that many people who you think you know are like you?

Overall?

I think we all have different aspects where we're similar. Sure. But like you, you still are a weird dude. You know what I'm saying?

Like, no, that's the hard. No, I was about to say, say like after I retired, so I feel like I can. I've talked to like so many successful people and I've gotten amazing advice from people who, who've done it in, in, in so many ways. But same time, there hasn't been one thing that I've, I've taken pieces from what people have gone through, but there's, there hasn't been like one story that I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, that is my, that's my journey. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that. So like every day when I wake up, people ask me like, what do you do all day? I'm like, I, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to figure it out. So I guess I don't have anybody to compete against. I'm not competing against anybody. Like, I, you know, I'll kick my coverage in my marriage, I have two unbelievable kids. You know, I'm, I'm living my dream. I, you know, single digit handicap golfer, like, man, like, I'm so happy with my life and so like, you know, to conjure up kind of like, like fake enemies like that. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna believe it. I'm not gonna believe it.

Would you, would you welcome a new external motivator? Like, do you like not having that now? Is it Just, it's a phase you're in. Do you think you'll have. At some point something will, you know, an itch will come.

It's hard, you know, I mean, I always go back to Kobe. You know, the competition with, with Kobe was so pure and I love playing against him and I didn't like him at all and he didn't like me, but he kind of respected me and I obviously respected him and like, I knew like that was the purest, like, form. Like he was the guy that I was thinking about when I was a kid.

Yeah.

That when I meet him. Yeah, my ass.

That's crazy. That's crazy. He existed.

He existed.

Yeah, he existed. And so, you know, it sounds like, it sounds cliche, but like, I don't know if anybody or anything could ever feel like that feeling that that guy made me feel.

Did you, did you, Ravi? Did you have like, as. Was there any of this in the operating world? I mean, obviously some of these tech founders and operators are larger than life, you know, and even on the investment side, the same thing. Like, does that happen?

There's nobody. No, because it's, you know, I was just gonna say it's so interesting. I've had people for sure, I've looked up to, I put on pedestal some of them I've met and they're no longer on the pedestal, you know what I'm saying? And some of what you gain your own confidence in is sort of like, okay, they don't, they don't have something I don't have or whatever. And then some of the people who are better than me, like I've given you guys this example, like the, the founder of Sierra along with Clay Bevore, Brett Taylor, Clay before. These guys are so good. There's many ways where I'm like, wow, I'm just not going to catch up to them on certain things. And Brett is this funny thing where Clay, I've always said, oh, but he's more of the technical background and Brett has done the technical thing and the business thing. And so they both have these things where I'll just feel like I won't catch up, but it's not. It doesn't create the same motivation. That Kobe thing had. The thing I was thinking about for you guys. Have you guys heard of sports as basically life but compressed, right? You don't really have something in life that is resembling of head to head competition, physical, mental. And what you do in the season or in the game, it is just a life, but it's compressed into this really tiny thing. And I don't think you actually have that in the outside of that world now. There's costs that come along with you guys having gotten that, you know, like, it's easier for me to find motivation than it is for you guys now. But, like, no, the intensity of what you dealt with, I don't think exists. Cause even at Instacart, when we were, like, in the midst of it with Amazon, it's not the same thing.

It wasn't.

It's not as strong as what you said. No, like, I mean, I was.

Yeah, but you guys were. It was the war, right? It was like.

Of course it was the war. It was the war. It was the war, and it was everything, and it was felt, whatever. But I'll give you this example, and I read this one time, Alexis Ohanian, who I don't know Alexis, but, you know, apparently when he got married to Serena, he told this story of, like, you know, he's the founder of Reddit, and he done a lot of stuff. He was like, I always thought I worked extremely hard, a big part of my identity. He's like. And then I watched Serena, and he's like, I watched her practice, I watched her work. I watched how many hours she was in the day just, like, doing this. And he's like. And I'm like, this is a completely fucking different level. And I will tell you, like, I think that we worked so hard in this year. We cared and we were in it. I don't think it's the same as what you're describing with Kobe. I don't. It's not the same as you coming back from your leg injury and, like. And that's from something. I wish it was. I want it to be. I would love if I could tell you guys it's the same. I just don't think it is.

So, on two things, and I guess I agree that you're. Even the. The Amazon thing, like, the time horizon is so much longer on that, on that battle. Whereas, like, when. I mean, it's a Tuesday night and Shane wakes up in the morning and he knows he's playing whoever that night. And, like, the Lakers, like, that freaking thing is coming and that clock is counting down. And, like, there is, I mean, again, the stress and anxiety that ratchets up for that. And you got to take yourself to a place, right? Like, for these experiences and no different in football. And again, like, it baffles me, right? Like, super bowl just happened the week leading up, and it's all about the mystique of the Chiefs and especially Patrick, right? That, like, he has this intangible quality and people already argue, being, arguing. He's the greatest of all time, right? He's been to five Super Bowls under 30. Nobody's even come close, you know, and then he loses it and doesn't, you know, like, doesn't play well. It's like a poor Audi. And like, the next day you wake up and he's like. Like, the goat debate's not even close. Like, he's not even. He's not even in the conversation anymore. Like, what are we talking about? You know, and it's like one game. And like, the life and death of that. Like, that emotional ride, you know, of that. And that's an extreme. That's as extreme as it gets, certainly, for football, right, to play in the Super Bowl. And whether you play great and you're the MVP as a quarterback or you play terribly and you're the.

Look at Tatum. Tatum wins the finals, right? He's dying to win it. Then he doesn't get mvp, so it's like he has this crazy peak. Then he like, okay, well, they bring him down a little bit because Jaylen Brown gets it. Cool. But he still was the champion. Then he goes and he makes the Olympic team and Brown doesn't. So he still gets to feel good. And then all of a sudden, he never plays in the Olympic team. This is all like, this is so tight. And I think your point is, like, it's a time horizon thing. It's just the intensity is different when it's concentrated way you guys dealt with it. And like, man, I wish I like.

What you said about the sustainability of intensity. And that's something as an athlete, don't really think about because the shelf life is so short, right?

The.

The. The shelf life of a corporate executive. That's a long freaking time.

Totally.

Right? And so if. If you have, like the intensity of, you know, of. Of Bezos, most people burn out right, After a couple of years.

Do you guys think it's important, though? And I guess I feel like I'm in this. Right. Again, transition away from football and not having all those just being living by external motivators again and the win, loss every Sunday. And maybe I need to be more conscious of curating some competition, right? Like a board. Bulletin board. Like, I need to get my own bulletin board going. Like material. Well, maybe. I don't know, like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, is that unhealthy or healthy?

No, but like, don't you think, though, like, Alex, you don't care. Like, you've. You've already had people say bad things about you, right? And so, like, you go on Twitter or.

Yeah, but a new one, I'm saying, like, a new social media, new people.

Will dog you out and you're like, yeah, whatever.

Like, so I think. I think it's different for each person. Like, look, my impression of the two of you is that right now Shane doesn't need it and you do. You know, I think you want it more like an external motivator than Shane does. And I think he might at some point, but you know what I'm saying.

Like, I think I like the definition of it.

Yeah. And I think. And I don't mean you need it like, you, like, need external competition. But I think he, right now, when we ask him, will be like, yeah, but, like, don't you want a chip? And he's kind of like, nah, I'm fine, you know. You know.

I think that, like, the thing I struggle with is, like, this portfolio approach, for sure. The dabbling.

Yeah. You know, remember what Shane said when we. What the dilettante. Shane was like, maybe I have a dilettante. You know, I do think when he dropped the. I'm a single digit. I'm so happy with my life. I'm like, man, I wish I was.

A single for everybody out there.

He's.

Yeah, he's a sandbagger, by the way.

But Shane, do you think when you write the book next year you're going to be, like, looking at the rankings of where you are on the bestseller list?

Yeah, good one.

Yeah. I wish I was better than that to say, like, no, I think you're going to such a. A personal journey and, you know, I'm just. I don't. I don't care if I win or lose. No, like, yeah, I'm a competitor. Like, so, yeah, if I. If I see, you know, Martha Stewart release a cookbook, I'm trying to beat Martha Stewart's ass. Okay. And that's just how I've come up.

Do you think we need a glue, guys? Bulletin board maybe? Like, the crux of this is like, fucking A. Like, who, What. What is our competition?

Yeah, I kind of. That's kind of interesting. That's kind of interesting. Should we. Should we put like. Should we put like, Patrick. Patrick o' Shaughnessy on. Patrick has all these listeners. We should be beating. Invest like the best. I do think one of the things I actually am curious about for you Guys, do you think your kids. Do they realize that you guys were, like, working so hard and resilient? Like, what do they see when they see you guys now? Because you played earlier in their lives, right? And now you're around more? Like, what do they think about when they think of you guys in that respect?

Okay, I'll just jump in on this. This is, like, my favorite thing. Okay. Anytime I come out with a collared shirt on. Anytime like this, it just happened this morning.

Okay?

Okay. I had a meeting this morning. I had to, like, look somewhat. So, like, you know, whatever. A college. My middle son's immediate first reaction is, oh, dad, you're going golfing. Like, his first reaction, right? And he says this. I like, I'm like, no. And like, so when I, you know, all these other things again, that, you know, the firm that I'm at, and, like, if I go do anything, put a collar shirt on, he's like, oh, dad, are you going golfing? And so. And a couple things there that, like, they were young when I played, and one of the biggest perks of being a professional athlete is, like, putting on the clothes that I took off the night before that are laying right beside my bed to go to work, you know? Like, it is, like, because, you know, when you get to work, I have to, like, get my. I have my own. I have my whole work clothes. Like, I wear chiefs gear. Like, I have to get in all my stuff that I have my own, like, net bag, laundry that, like, you know what? Again, like, I. I get in my. My uniform, you know, my. My factory uniform. But I guess, like, what I'm getting at again, like, to my kids, it's so different now. And again, like, this even, like, what does work look like?

They.

They knew what work looked like when I played football. And now every time I do go, things that I would call work, my kids think I'm golfing. Right? Like, that's what I'm presenting to them, you know, like, so. No, to answer your question, they'd have no idea.

Ravi, do you think, like, kids today are more just internal? And so, like, internal motivation may be, like, more important than was for us? They're internal and external, all right. They're always.

Yeah, it's like a barbell.

Through social media and everything. Everything else, but just kids are less connected to people nowadays, right? And they're more digitally connected, but I would say more, like, isolated as. As people. That's a scary thing for our society, you know, for. For our country, for our. For our kids and so, like, to optimize your journey and, and, and be a productive person, like, it's up to you because you're not as connected.

Yeah, I think there's definitely something there because, like, what I was gonna say was it's so funny, you know, I don't know. I have like a full time job that I'm gone for and I don't think my kids, like care. Like, they don't notice that I'm work, you know what I'm saying? Like, for them, because it's like their lives that matter to them and all they notice is if I'm home.

Right.

That's the only thing that they notice. And if I'm like, where they would notice it is if I was gone all the time, like for dinner, then I think, or if I was traveling all the time, I think they would then be like, oh, like Dad's like, not around, but as long as I'm around, there's no notion of me working a ton or hard or whatever. And so I say that in that. And even when I am in these periods around an investment where it's really crazy, intense and all this stuff, they're thinking about their own lives, like you said, Shane. And so I think that what you just said of kids are focused up here. I think that's true. I don't know yet on the internal, external point you're making, because my kids don't have phones because they're so young. Right? But like, I think once you get a phone, aren't you kind of like.

I think it's more external.

I think so, right? Like once you get a phone and maybe they're like fake digital relationships, but I think you're like crazy externally oriented once you get a phone. I don't know. Like I said, my kids are young. I don't know.

Even as a family, do you guys not think, like, I mean, Instagram is like this giant external. Oh, look how happy they are. Look how great their life is. Look at what they're doing. Right? Like. Yeah.

Yes.

You know, so is internal motivation the antidote to that?

Oh, it would be much healthier in my perspective.

Yeah, I think you're right.

That stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Is that the antidote? More internal, More. Hey, like, I can't do it for you. You got to want to do it, right? I can give you all the tools that you have, all you need. I can set you up. But you're the one that put the foot in front of the other every single day to get to the next Level, Right?

Yeah. I think it's paired. You tell me if you guys agree. I think it's internal, like, trying to get internal motivation, and it's the establishment of a reasonable high standard. The reason I say that is the Instagram stuff is not a reasonable high standard. It is an unreasonable fake standard, whatever they're seeing. And I actually think a lot of what provides, like, goodness is, like, something that is achievable but difficult, you know, and you. They have to know what's real, you know, And I think because, like, you know, let's say your standard when you were coming back from the leg injury was, I want to. I want to be as mobile as I was before the injury, you're, like, chronically going to be disappointed.

Right.

Whereas if the answer is like, no, I want to play at a high level, but understanding that my game's going to be different, that's an incredibly difficult standard. At least it's plausible. And so I think, Shane, yes, internal motivation, but I think part of the job for us with the kids is helping them understand what is a high standard but an actual standard.

The social media, the constant comparison, like, oh, look what this kid did. Look what these kids, like, would look what, you know, like, it's, It's. I'm just even like my own. I. I struggle. It's like a.

Where does competition come into this? Like, you know, you want your kid to, like, want to win, because winning. Fun. Right. You don't want your. Your. Your kid to go through life and do not get nothing but participatory ribbons.

But remember, you told us one time, I think you said this on a recording. I hope it was during a recording that, like, during the Heat days, you guys would put on videos of Jordan having like a 5 for 20 game or something. And so the reason I think that's, like, notable is like, if to me, Instagram is basically like telling people that Michael Jordan scored 55 points.

Oh, you see, he's the crossover swish against the Jazz all the time.

Yeah. And he, like, you know, averaged 50 points a game, and he won every game, and you know what I'm saying? And he, like, won 12 championships or whatever versus, like, no, like, you know, he was amazing. He was the best of all time, but, like, he sometimes had bad games. So I think the problem, Shane, I have with, like, the perfection standard is I actually think it's demotivating and it makes them not even want to compete.

It's unattainable.

Yeah. Because they're just like, whatever. Like, there's no way I can do that. So, yes, I want my kids to be competitive. They still have. One of my favorite things about each of them is on their desks. They have their, like, winning ribbons or whatever. Like, kind of, like, laid out just so. And I fucking love that because it's not. Nobody else is telling them, but they have whatever they found pride in on there, you know, so, yeah, I definitely. I am not ashamed of this at all. I really want them to be competitive, and I. And they are so far. But I really hope that continues.

Are you okay with them being competitive with themselves?

With each other or with.

No, with, like, within. Within. I mean, the twins are different. We can do a whole podcast psychology of twins, right?

Yeah.

But are you okay with them being, you know, competing within, you know, themselves.

To be the best? Yeah, I think so. Because I think that, honestly, like, you know, I mean, like, every dad I say, 95% of the shit that I tell them probably goes in one ear and out the other. One of the few things that, like, consistently hits is if I ask them if they're proud of how they are behaving or playing or whatever. Like, just like, the question, are you proud of what you're doing right now? And the reason I think that's, like, especially happens when they're misbehaving with each other and they're describing why it's not that big of a deal or they're not really doing anything. And then if I can ask them, are you proud of how you're behaving right now? That answer always gets like a. They've thought about it. And I think that being proud is like competing against yourself.

I think that's a great question.

Thank you.

I've never done that with my kids. I think that's a great question.

It, like, really has been effective. I mean, like I said, the vast majority of the shit that I do is not effective. That one is good because every time they're like, no, it's like, yeah, what.

Do you want to be about? You kind of. You're, like, asking them, like, yeah, yeah.

You know, yes, I know there's some defense for what you're doing, but you certainly are not proud of it. And the problem is, occasionally they'll say, yes, and you're like, fine, okay, let me leave you alone. You know what I'm saying? But, like, yeah, that's a question a lot.

I like that, Alex, what you said, you said, what do you want to be about? When. When did you figure that out? That this is What I'm about, I.

Think it was pretty young and I, I really relate to you, Shane. When you said, like, from a young age, like, that I'm different and I'm sure I, I guess I hope everybody feels like that in a good way. Like, I, I felt the same feeling, like, not, not externally, like I'm not a mix or anything, but like I'm unique.

Yeah.

Right. Like, I had, I distinctly had that thought process and, or confidence. And I think I also like. And I, and I love the whole, like, are you proud? Because I, from a very young age and obviously I still, hopefully I carry it. You know, no one's perfect and you lose it. But like, doing things the right way and being a good person, like, were always very, like, ingrained in me, I think, from a young age. But I think again, to go back to like, that I'm unique and that I could do hard things right. And that if I didn't do a heart, if I didn't go try to do hard things and, or achieve it, like, I don't know if I would have ever felt content.

Yeah.

Does that make sense? Like, I, honestly, I don't know if I ever would. I, I could feel content at all. Like, I, I, if I hadn't.

Totally, totally makes sense.

How about you, Robbie? When did you figure out, I mean, your path was a little windier.

Yeah. You know, I think it was later. I think it was later than you guys. I think that. I think it was, you know what it was. It was when I wanted something and didn't get it right. And when it was when I really wanted something and didn't get it. So that was probably, it was probably around college. Like in college was the time where I sort of, I think, started to figure out that I wanted to be about something different than I was being about, you know, And I think that it took failure, it took pain, it took, it took realizing that the current approach was not going to work, you know? You know, I see Alex laughing.

I'm just thinking this because we're going to ask. I want to ask Shane this question, but like, like, if I were to guess an age of when Shane knew what he wanted to be about.

Yeah.

Like, like two. How old were you?

I was just say, like, we should guess. Let's both of us guess. Okay.

It's a single digit. It's lower than his handicap.

It's lower than his handicap. My guess is it was like after his mom spanked him, when he had the party for his imaginary friends and he was like 4 years old. And he's like, I'm never going to have that happen again.

What about that ball?

Shane, what age were you when you decided?

I think a huge, huge, huge turning point in my life was I was 10 years old and I went to the Isaiah Thomas Basketball camp and actually Magic Johnson, you know who I love, was the guest speaker and he gave me a piece of advice that I went home and immediately did. It changed my life and it changed like how I viewed the world. He said, you gotta, you gotta see your goals every single day. So go home, put them on an index card, put them somewhere where you see them every single day. So I'm like, oh man, if it worked for me again, my paranoia about like, oh man, there's a secret out there I don't know about, like I'm gonna do this. And so first thing I do, I go home and I write down my goals on a index card. So nerdy. And I said, I said I wanted to make my high school varsity team. You know, I wanted to go to play in college and I wanted to play in the NBA.

10 years old.

Yeah, 10 years old. And I put it like, you know, above my bed. And I looked at it every single day and I'm like, everything I do is going to be for these three things. And so every year I'd come up with new goals, like, I want to be Mr. Basketball. I want to, you know, being All American, yada, yada yada. And it's so, you know, it changed everything. I was 10 years old, I'll never forget it. So like everything I did was to get like one step closer to those goals.

I mean Magic's literal advice to you as a 10 year old was to create an external like reminder for you to look at every day about your goals. Right? Like again, like you, they were somewhere in your head, but he made you think about them and write them down. And again, the power of external motivation, right? And competition. And again, you like as a 10 year old to think that you wrote down varsity basketball, college basketball, NBA is crazy. And you did it. And like, do you think that that is just coincidence?

I didn't want to find out if it didn't work.

That's crazy. Crazy.

I think I, I, you know, that's, that's my woo woo manifestation, you know, but like me, like I.

So this is so again, this is, this is the. To go to your Detroit lions again at ESPN. We've done so many specials on them. Amon Ross St. Brown was like the 16th receiver drafted that year. He writes down all 16, multiple times, every receiver drafted ahead of him. And he does it says, like, a ritual. It's, like, taped in his locker room. He redoes it every year.

Like.

And again, this just, like, external reminder. These guys are the end. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, these guys same. The same list. And he is. He is a all pro receiver.

Yeah, right.

Who was drafted in, like, the fourth round or fifth round or whatever. Like, I mean, it's amazing.

Shane, I have two takeaways from what you said, though. One is, we got to have magic on at some point. And so we can tell him, like, hey, you're responsible for brother Badier's career. You know, that'd be good.

Commander's owner commanders in her talk a little commanders. Okay.

Yeah, that's good. Maybe you're the guy to get. Yeah. And then the other thing is, the fucking dude, the Kobe story is really messing with me. Of, like, the ghost existed. Like, that's crazy, dude. Like, I'm just like, back to this idea of, like, you grew up with this idea of always somebody working and he's just going to try and kill you. And, like, that's actually true about Kobe Bryant. He was always working, like. And he was, like, living in fucking Italy. Like, it actually. It was like, actually what happened? And then you, like, meet him in the NBA and like, all he wants to do is, like, go up against you and kill you.

And, like, he was one month older than me, so the same age.

Like, that is nuts.

Yeah. And go back to your. To go back to your, like, sports or life, like, metaphorically kill you. Right? Like an assassin. Like, he took this, like, the Mamba.

Yes.

Yeah. Mentality. Yeah.

And, like, it's so weird because, like, you're like, a kid and you're thinking about it, and then it actually happens, like, where, you know, you. You do it and then, like, that's why sports are crazy. Crazy like that. You know, like, when. When I'm, like, competing for an investment with somebody. It's not like, you know, this guy was studying when I wasn't, and I was thinking about him as a kid. Like, that's not. That's not how it works, you know?

Do you think again? I guess for people out there and even myself, I'm just thinking about, like, even your practice of a car chain. Do you still do that? Like, do you think that that would be healthy to do? And I'm not saying they have to be external, but even just, like, writing down what's important.

Who. Who are you competing against that Every day in my. My gratitude journal, you know, and. And I remind myself what I'm about. And I don't really have, like, hard goals. Like, Like, I used to. Maybe I should. You know, I think glue guys, you know, top 10 podcasts. That should be a goal.

Let's go, let's go, let's go.

You know, and that's. That's probably, you know, to be honest, probably part of the reason why I'm kind of. Kind of blase in wandering, you know, to have hard and fast goals to hold yourself to, right? And say, no. Like, I believe in this and this is important to me. Important enough to write down and look at and think about every single day. You know, my goals are a little more, you know, nebulous, I guess you could say I want to contribute and I want to. I want to challenge myself, be learn more and be better, and I want to be part of community. You know, those are pretty like, like vague, vast goals, and they're great goals, and I work towards those. But, like, you know, that's. That's a good point, Alex.

To.

To maybe get a little more concrete.

I. I think it would help me. I've never done it. I've never done it, but I even think now more than ever, like, I think it would help me. Right.

See, I might, you know, maybe it would. My thought is actually somewhat different. So in the spirit of, like, because.

You'Re in it, you're in it.

Well, yes, but I also think that, like, this is where I always come back to, like, you say, I know what game you're playing and doesn't have to be the same game forever.

But doesn't the list you create define the game you're playing? Like, that's my point.

Like, but if you, like, really go meta on this thing, I'm kind of like, if Shane is okay right now without a defined list, that's okay.

Well, maybe the number one thing is, like, keeping my list undefined, is my point. Like, no, no, I'm saying you keep curate it. You give it thought. I think I would need this potentially. Cause I do feel like, again, this portfolio problem, it's just too many. I joke with you guys. Too many balls in here.

I'm not even sure you have a problem. And to your point.

Well, I could define that.

You could write that. And if the point is you should be affirmative about what you're doing, I'm good with that. It just doesn't have to be so tight. All the time. It can just be, whatever you're doing, do it on purpose. You know, like, that to me is like, okay, like you, Shane, you told me that at one point, like, part of your job was just like, have more fun. Cause you were a professional fucking basketball player when you were eight years old. Right? Like, that is a bizarrely, you know, that is a weird thing. Right? Like, and so it is probably good for you to, like, decompress a little bit, you know, at some point. And so. Yeah, okay, Alex, if that's your point of, like, make it explicit as to what game you're playing. Even if it's like, I want to have a slightly different thing, that's cool. But just everyone doesn't have to be playing it all the time because then you're playing someone else's game.

It's awfully close to winning second place over here, Robbie. It's awfully close.

I'm in it. Hey, I'm in it. You know, I'm playing a game.

I'm going to steal both those. I love the asking my kids if this makes them proud.

Yeah, right.

And I do think, honestly, Shane, like, I. I think. And to your point, Ravi, like, you make the list about whatever you want it, but, like, again, defining it. And I think for me, I find myself. I say yes to a lot of too much. And I find myself getting committed to things and doing things that wouldn't be on that list if I were going to make it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And so that's certainly maybe something that I. And again, maybe just saying no more is kind of a priority, you know, would be on there. So. But I need to. I need to put them in practice.

There's this great line that I hear about sometimes, which is like, you know, it's. There's this meme of, like, current me would not want to do this at all, but future me will totally want to do this. And it's like, no, you idiot. If you don't want to do it now, like, don't say yes to it in a month. Like, because when it comes along, you know, if this meeting was today, would you be like, yeah, I'm really excited to go to that. Like, so much of the reason it's so funny, people ask me, like, do you. Are you guys having fun doing the Goo Guys? Like, you know, whatever. I'm like, a lot of my metric is kind of, do I look forward to this slot on my calendar or not? And thus far, yeah, absolutely. That's great. But there's a Lot of signal in. When you look at the calendar. How does it feel when you see the thing coming up? And I think that that tells you a lot. And think about the number of things you go to that you're obliged to go to. I try to minimize that number. So what did we decide today, Shane? What did we learn?

We revisited. What game are we playing? Right. Very important to define that. And once you define the game that we're playing now, who are we playing against? Who are the players in the game? And, you know, for us old athletes, it was easy to define, you know, the ghosts that we sometimes met in real life, in business, a little more nebulous, but it's a longer game. It's a longer game in the corporate world.

I think the other thing we learned today, Shane, I think is this. It's easier to be internally motivated when you know what you're shooting for versus it being kind of like, unknown. Because I think that the unknown you can create more of, like, the competition of. Okay, well, I don't know exactly what that is, but that's what I'm going up against. I think once you kind of know the goal, it's easier to be internally motivated against some standard and easier to remind yourself. I remember when I was at kkr, sometimes I'd be thinking about somebody else doing an investment, like, oh, my God, I gotta do one. And I literally would have to say out loud, you are running your own race. That doesn't matter. And it reminds me of your stuff on being a good quarterback. It doesn't matter if the other person's good matters if I'm good.