The Hidden Mental Game of Quarterbacking - [Glue Guys, EP.54]]

I basically ran three formations in college. I, you know, 15 plays for the most part. And all of a sudden, here you go to the NFL and, like, now I have 200 plays. I had never seen things like this. I wasn't used to them. And then this is the kicker. That's for week one.

All right, Alex, listen. I was re. Listening to the Urban episode. Yeah. Other day.

Yeah.

And, you know, I texted you about it, giving you a lot of love for, like, you know, making it through the Urban gauntlet. But one thing he said that actually spurred this conversation for me, he said he's like, you know, when I met Alex Smith, he was a six' four guy who was 185 pounds, and football wasn't that important to him. I don't know if that's true or not, but there was something in your practice, something in the way you showed up that suggested to him that you were not. This was not the only thing that mattered, the most important thing in your life.

I don't think he's wrong at all. When I think back to, like, what I was like, probably when Urban met me again, 18 years old, you know, I'd only been playing football for four years in high school. I ran the wing T in high school. Right. Like, I didn't even know football. Playing high school football in California, very different than, like, some of my peers that grew up in Texas or the south, where they were exposed to football longer and had probably better coaching, to be honest. Right. Like, if in high school were taught, I. I mean, I didn't even know defenses. Like, I couldn't have told you. Like, the foundations of the defenses I was going against, you know, fronts and coverages and how they married to each other. Like, I didn't know any of that. What worked versus them. What were their strengths and weaknesses? Obviously, get up to Utah. And. No, I mean, I'm just as much. I'm more of a student. Right. I'm thinking about what my major is going to be, and, you know, what I. What the hell I want to do with my life. And when Urban came in, that entire staff, Dan Mullen included, who's now the head coach at unlv, who was the. He was the longtime head coach at Mississippi State and Florida as well. He was my quarterback coach. And again, they were so young and. And. And demanding is, like, putting it, you know, very politely, what they expected out of you. You know, Urban would come into the meeting rooms. I don't know if I've told you this. He would come in the Meeting rooms. He'd be like, you know, again, Alex, get on the board.

Yeah, I remember.

And he would draw. He would give me an offensive play, you know, and. And tell me a coverage to draw up with it. And like, I mean, immediately from my. From my, you know, literally my x's and O's, I mean, he would just crush how detailed I was. Right. How sloppy my drawings were. What hash are we on? What's the art like? You know, like, just killing me like that I wasn't so detailed because the details mattered. Right. Like, for me as a quarterback especially, that I needed to be paying attention to these details. Right. That these details mattered in order for me to process and make decisions. And I think prior to that, I probably was, you know, hey, I got a strong arm. I mean, hey, I can throw at 70 yards. I'm tall. Like, I like that that stuff matters. And that was important for Urban. And running that offense just wasn't the case. Right. It didn't matter. That stuff was so secondary. Everything was revolved around the quarterback. I think that it was special in that system. I got us into every play. I got us into every single protection. I dictated run and pass. There were so many built in hots and sight adjusts depending on the defense. And like, that. I did that. I did it all right. And a lot of times the receivers and O lineman were in coordination with me. But like, the QB dictated everything in that system. It put a lot on your shoulders as a quarterback. And again, for me, it was a huge learning curve. I had never experienced anything like that. Right. Like, I was always such a supporting character in offense up until that point.

Well, so, okay, so take me through. Quick, take me through. What does a high school practice day look like? And then what does a college practice day under Urban, when you are center of the universe, look like?

Yeah, so funny. I'm actually in the midst of this because my, you know, obviously, you know, Hudson, my oldest, is playing freshman football for the first time. And so I actually have like, been trying to recall what I was like or what practices were like for me as a freshman. And I just remember running a lot of plays on air. And again, it was the wing tea. And so I was running all these like the buck sweep and waggle and like these plays. And you just were kind of the. You were the point guard and you had all these amazing running backs around you, and you kind of were the one faking and handing off to all of them.

You watch film in high school?

Very little. Very little. And. And if I did. I had no, I. I was watching us on offense. I actually wasn't watching defense and like preparing for that matchup.

And then like hours per day in football season, what do you think? Like 2 hours, 3 hours in high school? Yeah.

What, like outside of practice?

No, no, inside of including practice.

I mean, you played on a Friday. You practiced, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and you kind of had a jog through practice Thursday, play Friday.

Okay, great. So.

And then, and then you went on the field. Ravi and I handed off to a guy named Reggie Bush.

Okay.

Who was better and faster than every single person on the field. And by the way, we had a lot of other talent. Like, I had other teammates that played in the NFL. Like my starting receiver played like six or seven years in the NFL. Our track team in the 4x100, I think got like second in the state of California. They were like up there nationally. All four of them played football, Right? Like they were all on the football team.

How did I not know this? You go to Utah now hit me with like, what? Take me through like a detailed practice day under Urban for you.

Gosh, I think, I mean, I'm forgetting the rules here in season out of season, but yeah, there's like a 20 hour week, like limit, I think.

Okay.

Kind of thing. Yeah, but practices are far more intense. I mean, first off, I know our offense apps just cold better than anybody, especially by my last year. Right. Like, I mean, I could, I could coach it, I could teach it. I knew every nuance to it, what we were doing and why we were doing it. Like, I think that was also very important, like the why. I knew if the team came out and played two high safeties, what we were going to do as soon as they went to one high safety in our run game, what we were going to do and why it was going to work. And again, the zone read and, and this, I was such a focal point of the run game. Two is the quarterback in that system. I ran the run game, right. Every single play was a zone read. And then if they pressured us, right. If they played no deep as. As Urban would say, you know, what, what the answer was and where to go with the football. Defenses fell into one of those three categories, right? Like it was either a two high defense, it was a one high defense, or there was no deep. And. And every single one of them had a corresponding and. Or answer that you would like immediately get to.

And that's outside of the practice time, right. When you're learning this stuff, knowing the offense Cold.

That's just like classroom off season. Yep. Just mind numbingly repetitive because we didn't have a big offense by the way, like volume wise. Like I mean I bet I played my, my two years with Urban and I bet I ran 12 plays.

What?

Yes. Over and over and oh, maybe 15 over again and over again.

When you say mind numbingly detailed, what are you. What does that mean to like get it to. You just can't forget it. What does that mean to know it?

Quiz in the classroom and then on the field walkthrough quiz. Right. Like all of these again, you always had to have an answer. The defense presented something and you had an answer. And I was given the answer. Right. Like again in the classroom, in the walkthrough, on the practice field against the scout team. And then obviously he was expected to show up on, on game day. And everything was thought out. Everything was like pre thought out. And so I always had an answer. I. It was a matter of me having my eyes open and seeing what the defense was doing. And again, this is all happening in real time, right? Like this happens, this is happening in you know, one to two seconds.

If you didn't do the classroom work, okay. And you were exactly the same physical like level of skill was just everything have fallen apart at that point at Utah or like would you still have.

Been a decent quarterb have been just a guy really like never played just a guy. Maybe have a cup of coffee in the NFL maybe. I don't even know if that. I honestly don't. I don't. I don't think so.

In other sports, like in basketball, right. There's this notion of the guys getting drafted as just being like these raw pieces of clay. They don't really even know how to play yet. And they're just like kind of, you know, they're getting drafted on their physical skills.

Totally athleticism.

And so to think about you in that case of you're like, if you hadn't done the extreme classroom work, you're not even, you're not even in the league.

Yes. You're not even there. The floors are different. Right. Like whereas in the NBA that floor is height and length and athleticism. Right. To like just play amongst your peers. I think there's a floor there. I think the floor as a quarterback, again, I don't want to say that there isn't a physical floor because there is obviously, but the floor. I think the filtering process is a processing perspective. It is a processing filter. You've programmed yourself. You've literally Rewired your brain. And I actually want to. Being programmed is probably an appropriate word for what Urban and Dan Mullen did for me in that offense. Like, rewired my thinking, like, and it is if this, then this, if this, then this, if that, like. And things happen so fast right at the line of scrimmage, pre snap and post snap, that processing speed has to be so fast in order to have a chance at success and in order to have a chance to let your physical skills show up, right? Like, you could be the most gifted quarterback ever, but if you can't think out there on your feet and if you haven't put in the time and the work ethic to, to, to program your brain, right, to hardwire it to process like this, then you don't, you don't have a chance.

The thing that's interesting there is you then go to the league, right? You've been told over and over again that you're smart, you know you're smart, you know you've worked your ass off at Utah, right? And so if processing is the differentiator, you could imagine that you walk in actually feeling somewhat confident going into the NFL, right, because you're like, hey, wait a second, like, I am smart. I, I do pay attention, I do work hard. This is what you talk about. I'm in the film room all the time. So now what's different in the NFL? Why does the processing that you learn in college, why is it not enough.

For the NFL one right off the bat? Volume.

Like, what do you mean volume again?

I told you, I basically ran three formations in college. I, you know, 15 plays for the most part. So like when I would go watch film, I would just literally watch the opponent's three by one tape, right? So I could watch every snap they'd ever played that season against three by one. And right, like, and they on intern also had less volume, right? So like they say they had three or four defenses that they ran versus three by one. And there would be little tells that could, you know, they were trying to make them look the same, but there would be little tells that would tell you what the difference was. And so I got so good at seeing those little tails. Like, I knew immediately we broke the huddle. Like again, these little things that I was looking at was the will was the weak side, linebacker shifted over the center. That meant this was coming, right? Like if the weekside safety was at this depth, that meant this was coming. And so I could get us to the right play and, or make the right Read really fast. So I go to the NFL and like, again, like even in my meetings, like coming out like in. It's supremely confident when I, when they would put me up on the whiteboard. Yeah, right. Like I, no, I, I again, like there wasn't anything that I didn't feel like they could ask me about my college offense and, or what I went against that I wasn't prepared for. And so I do think that showed up again in my meetings. The interview process, you get drafted and all of a sudden here you go to the NFL and like again, the volume exponential. Because you got to understand, now you're running. I'm running like again, this like pro system. Yeah. Which is very foreign to me because I again, there's newness to it. Like I'm under center all of a sudden almost every snap, whereas I played in the shotgun. But that aside, we have endless formations and motions and shifts. Endless. The volume of running plays and screens and drop back and play action. And then you add goal line and short yardage and red zone in two minute. That volume. Now I have 200 plays. And then you get these non textbook coverages. Right. Like, whereas in college I played very textbook coverages, all of a sudden I'm playing against Ed Reed. Ed Reed is hiding behind the center judge ref. He's squatting down in an NFL game hiding behind an NFL ref. And you're, you're like, literally you're, you know what I'm saying? Like, the audacity and skill that he knew that I was looking at him and so he was just gonna like, mess with me back, you know what I'm saying? Like, Troy Palomalu would be standing on the line of scrimmage.

What?

And at the snap would run back and play free safety. Right. Like, I had never seen things like this. I, I wasn't used to them. By the way, personnel is also involved in this. Right? Like I, all of a sudden, one in the huddle, I got a fullback and two tight ends. And then I can also play with three receivers. I can also play with four receivers and. Right. And all the variability in between. Now there's thousands and thousands of, of possible outcomes. And then this is the kicker. That's for week one, Right. Then you play a different defense the next week and you kind of press delete on most of that playbook and you put in a very specific game plan for the week two opponent. Right? And you have to learn that in three days, four days, right? And then guess what? Regardless of how that game went Good or bad, you do it again and again and again. So all of a sudden for 17 weeks you have to do this where? Press, press, erase, delete on all the old stuff last week and you're learning new stuff that applies this week. I. That. I didn't do that in college. There were no weekly specific game plans. Like again, we just ran our offense, right? Like it didn't matter what you did. We were running our offense.

If you just take physical skills amongst the NFL quarterbacks when you were a rookie and you had your bad year, Forget about processing for a second. I'm just talking pure physical skills. Where are you in the NFL? In amongst the quarterbacks.

Above average.

Great.

Well, above average.

Great. So let's just say you're top five to top 10, right?

Yeah.

And bad year, right?

Horrible year.

And so this is interesting. So the whole gap at that point is like you are physically able to do everything that you need to do as an NFL quarterback. There's nothing that like you need to be able to do that you're like, oh, this guy just can't do it. But it's just that you, even though you're smart and were like drafted because you were smart and capable, it's like you're just not able to process fast enough and well enough on what to do.

I think it would be fair to say I was like, sure, upper tier from an athleticism standpoint and physical skills. And I am the worst. The worst in the NFL. 32nd. Probably lower than that actually, if you counted some backups processing and prepared quarterback. And I'm taking accountability in this for myself that I just didn't know what I was doing. But also everything around me, like just took the field and completely unprepared to process and play fast against an NFL defense.

But it's weird, Alex, because preparedness, it's not like you're a lazy who's.

No, this, this is like I, I wanted. I worked my ass off. I put so much time. I was. I mean, you Gotta understand, I'm 21 years old. I'm. I have no family. I have like no girlfriend even at the time, no wife. Like, I'm living at the facility. I Show up, it's 6am and I leave again when it's dark. Like I don't even. It's like working at a factory, just putting in so much time and work because that was like definitely a source of pride. You're a quarterback number one pick. Like I got outwork everybody, right. I just. That didn't matter. That had had nothing to do with this. I mean, I started after three weeks in of the season. There was in a complete regime change that year. Right. Like, so there's a new head coach, new gm, new offensive coordinator, new defensive coordinator. I got a bunch of new teammates. None of us were equipped. And then you throw a 20, you know, first year starting quarterback in the middle of it, just not, not ready in any way to go do that at a high level.

But at some point X number of years later, you get really good, right?

Yep.

And you're two things I think have got to have happened. One, you continue to work on mechanics. You continue to work, you know, on your physical game. Right. You actually told me one time you, you think you could throw it less far later in your career than you could earlier, but you were faster. Right, in getting rid of it. And so one I'm interested in like the mechanics you're working on that are different than what people might expect. But then the next thing I'm interested in is like, okay, you can't spend any more time. What the heck do you do in order to actually be better at processing and better at being prepared.

When I watch clips of me playing at Utah and I watch me throw and run, it like it's like nails on a chalkboard for me.

Oh, wow.

Like I, I just, I see it and I'm like, oh my God. Like my release was like so long and slow and I was like so robotic and like stiff by the whole back half of my career, the best years of my career I played. I definitely couldn't throw it nearly. I didn't have the arm I had when I was younger. I mean, mind you, I'd had two shoulder surgeries, right? Oh yeah, that's true on my throwing arm. But it didn't matter either, by the way. Like, I'd also changed my perspective on like the ness of what aren't. What was actually required of you as a quarterback to play, getting the ball out, quick release time, being far more fluid in that process, being able to change arm angles a little bit, being far more of a savvy player. Those became much bigger priorities.

What does change arm angle mean?

There's this fallacy like I'm six four, right? I'm, I'm, I'm tall, I'm above average. Probably again from, from a height standpoint for quarterbacks. I'm not seeing over linemen in the NFL. These guys are 656-667. Sometimes they have helmet and shoulder pads on. By the way, the D Linemen are just as tall. Like, I am not seeing over any of these, any of these human beings, right? And this is probably also part of the reason that. And they're all faster too. That the jump to the NFL is so hard is because like gathering information is just harder. Your vision is so obscured in the NFL. I don't think I ever threw a pass in college that I didn't see. The reality is in the NFL, like you, you throw almost the majority of passes sometimes blind, right? Like, you just don't see. And you have to have gathered enough information along the way from breaking the huddle, walking up to the line of scrimmage, dropping back on these little tidbits that you feel good enough that the reps you've had on air on that play are going to allow you to cut the ball loose given not being able to see it.

So when a receiver, if you're in the NFL and a receiver breaks and like kind of gets a little space on tv right when we're watching, you can kind of see if somebody's open. Then they show you the replay afterwards being like, oh, you know, this guy was open. Are you telling me that when you're in the pocket, you don't see whether they break open or not? You're judging it based on like the way that the line set. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, what are you actually seeing before you throw the ball to somebody?

Sometimes you see separation, especially on underneath routes or quicker routes. Like that's something that you can. But a lot of times anything that's intermediate or down the field. No, there are times when you aren't going to see it. You have to trust on a couple things that the scheme, your offensive scheme on that particular play versus the defensive look that you, you know where the chess pieces are going to move ahead of time. Does that make sense? Like, I know that verse quarters on this play, if we run double post, like the inside post is going to collect the safety and then I'm going to have the outside post one on one with the corner and I have to trust that that that marriage of those schemes is going to work out that way. Then comes like the personnel part, the people part, right? Like, I also have to trust that. Well then given that one on one opportunity, my outside receiver running that outside post is going to beat their corner. And that also is the combination of like film work all week, right? Like that's how you watch film. Hey, I know this corner is or isn't a good player or can or can't run that well or does. Or doesn't have great ball skills. And how does that match up with the guy I have that week that's running that route? Like, is that Tyreek Hill?

Yeah.

Pretty good matchup, right? Like, is it somebody else maybe? Like I don't, you know, like I'm saying, like you have to like at that point too marry like that's where I think the nuance comes that I was so much better at as an older player. And this is the crux of it. You're finally running this play full speed in an NFL stadium, right. Like 70, 80,000 fans on TV and you're running at full speed that probably it might be the first time you've actually run it in that kind of environment ever. In order to get that level of a rep, it takes 22 people healthy.

Yes.

In that environment, willing to go full contact, full speed. And again, the risk of injury is so high. Yeah. And just the, the, again the manpower it takes to, to get one rep, you just don't do it, you don't do it that often. Like in a practice week in the NFL, like on a Wednesday, which is the heaviest practice day of the week. Like traditionally it's full pads. It's the one day you do full pads. You don't tackle though, ever by the way, ever in the NFL. You don't go live. And I told you this, quarterbacks like are untouchable. So the pocket totally isn't real. Totally.

Right.

You're going against the scout team. We've just installed 120 plays on that Wednesday. Right. And you have to be ready for those 120 plays all verse like six or seven different looks. Okay. But you're only going to get it one time versus one look on that Wednesday. And again that whole marriage of okay, well now we just installed 45 new pass plays and they, they run completely different looks on third down, especially in the NFL. Right. Exotic pressures and things. And so. But you're only going to get them all versus one look again on Thursday. Right. And then the same thing goes on Friday because now we put in red zone, short yardage, goal line. Right. So now you're putting in 40, 50 new plays again. And they run specific looks in those situations as well. But you're not going to get to rep every one of those plays verse a look. You're definitely not getting it lot like full speed. Then you do a walk through Saturday and you play Sunday. Right. Like so. But you have to have, you have to have Worked out all the other possibilities and your answers and feel comfortable enough to go run them full speed in a stadium and potentially not see it even from the pocket.

When you're investing in a company, okay, you're. When you. The earlier you meet the founder, right? The less like, think about when you are trying to invest in something. It's sort of like, is the product going to work where you don't have that much data? You know, do they have a moat? You don't have that much data. Right. You know, how are they going to be able to hire. You don't have that much data. So most of what you do, the earlier that you invest in something is just like, is this person going to figure it out or not?

Yep.

Is this founder going to like, learn quickly? Is this founder going to, you know, be able to meet the moment and change when the time comes? And I'm kind of like, that's what this is. Why the NFL draft is hard on quarterbacks, right, Is because they are venture capitalists. They are trying to figure out what someone's going to be like eight years later with. No, we think that they've been playing this game. It's like, no, you have not been playing the same game.

The best GMs and Scouts would tell you the most important part of their evaluation process, especially for early picked quarterbacks, are these human characteristic qualities of kind of grit, intelligence, work ethic, like toughness. Because I think the idea that you're going to come into the league and just have a bunch of success, I think they all understand is like, no, this is a humbling game and it's going to be really hard. But can you, can you learn? Can you adapt? Do you have this, the stick with itness.

Yes.

And resolve to make it work.

Like this part. I mean, dude, that is the only thing I'm going through my brain. I'm like, what we're trying to figure out with founders is like, are how are they going to deal with failure? How are they going to deal with it when something bad happens? Are they going to go and like, are they going to be fast to respond when something changes?

This is the interesting thing that obviously we haven't even talked about. There is no sport in America where coaching has the impact it has on a player's production and play. And I mean that in the sense that like, listen, when a batter steps into the batter's box, it's him against the pitcher. Like it does not matter for the most part. Like a manager doesn't have a big impact on his success. Like, I have to trust that my coach is and his scheme is going to put me in a position to have success. And you asked obviously, what's different about NF college versus the NFL. And this is the big factor. Like, again, my first NFL start was against the Indianapolis Colts, Peyton Manning, you know, again, childhood idol of mine. And they also had one of the best defenses in the NFL. And so they have this scheme, Right. That they run. And obviously Dwight Freey within that scheme was one of the best players in football. Right. Like Sackmaster, just spinning, whirling dervish nightmare coming off the edge. We are going to tweak our game plan to not let him ruin the game. So we are going to chip him. We're going to put a tight end to his side all the time. We're going to slide to him, you know, always to help. Well, they also have this guy on the other side that I had never even heard of at the time, named Robert Mathis.

Yeah.

Who? I mean, I think he's in the Colts ring of honor. Like, this guy's a phenomenal player. Well, I think he had four sacks. Like, you've never played players, these outlier players. I had never played against a guy like Brian urlacher, who is a 65 middle linebacker that runs like a deer. Right. Like, I had never played against Ed Reed and Troy Palomalo. I had never played against a corner corner that was as good as Champ Bailey. Like, and as you go on and you play against the, you know, Darrell Revises of the world, like Ray Lewis, you know, you're lining up against Ray Lewis on the other side of the ball. Like, it just. These guys are just such an. An added element of another unknown.

And to your point, you can't prep for that.

No.

You know, like, what are you gonna do to prepare for that?

Yeah. I think people would be surprised to know that like on a college team, there's a hundred. You have over 100 players on. So like defense practices on one field and offense is practice on one field. So in an hour and a half practice, you never go against each other. But you can get so many reps. Well, that same hour and a half practice at the NFL, you have half the reps because you have to service each other. Right. So like when the one offense is getting reps, the two defenses out there, there may even be starters.

Yeah.

That are giving the look of the opposing team and then you flip. Right. And so then the one defense needs to get their reps. So the one offense comes out and the backups on offense go in and give the opponent look that week. And so you have to go back and forth. So you really only have half the time and therefore half the reps each week. And it's just not that many.

What do the great quarterbacks do to work on processing when you can't just do the reps? What did you do because you go, you know, worst quarterback in the league first year, and then become a Pro Bowler?

Well, that happened over the course of about eight years. I had seven offensive coordinators in my first seven years. Yeah, my second year I was lucky enough to get to play for North Turner. North Turner came in, hall of Fame offensive coordinator. I mean, this guy, unbelievable. He obviously was the, the offensive coordinator for the Cowboys dynasty changed Troy Aikman's career. And you know, he'd been a head coach for a long time in the NFL at three different stops. He was more similar to that, that urban philosophy, like he would ingrain. He knew what he was looking for. He knew the answers. He had been coaching so long, he was much better at telling me where I needed to get to.

Okay.

From a mechanic standpoint, like, my drop was not fast enough. My release was not fast enough. I needed to be able to, like, I needed to play physically faster. He would have me speed up so fast in on the practice field, like so fast. I mean, I, I, he would just, he would stand directly behind me at like 10 yards and it was just like, I mean I, I never forget him just yelling, faster, faster, faster. Drop faster. Get the ball out faster. Throw it, throw it sooner. Like, he would drop back and I would be like, it'd be like a seven step drop. I'd be throwing like a deep incut. I would be dropping back as fast as I humanly could at that point. And let's say I'm on like drop five or like the fifth or sixth step of my drop, right? Like I'm getting towards the end. He would just yell, throw it. And like, it would just like, I would just like panic, right? Because he'd be screaming right behind me to throw it sooner, to throw it faster, to play with more anticipation. And like, he really pushed me again, similar to how like I got pushed in college to adapt. There was a lot, he eliminated a lot of the gray where I should be looking. What were my answers? If this, if this, then this, right? Like, I, I definitely felt more prepared and that was a big deal for me because my rookie year was so bad that then my next year I took Every single offensive snap. I think we finished 8 and 8, which was pretty good for us considering we'd only won two football games two years before that. And I made a huge jump in my play.

What it seems like Nor Turner is telling you is, look, there's more information available to you than you are saying, because you can do everything faster. Like, you can get back faster, you can gather the information faster. And when you say more, like the anticipation is he basically like, yo, dude, you know the right play to make, you just kind of, kind of got to make it faster. You're not going to get all the time to do the. If this, then that. That you otherwise want to do. And there's like more signal and already what you got than you're giving yourself credit for. Do you see what I'm saying? Because, like, playing faster only can happen if you know where you're going to throw it. You know, whether you're going. You have to still make the decisions.

Yes.

Move your body faster. So what allows you to make the decisions faster?

Like, it started in the classroom again, like, to go back to Norv here of learning this system. And obviously he had such a bankroll of film for me to watch and to watch quarterbacks do it, right? Like, and again, he had so many quarterbacks do it at a high level. And so you'd watch this scheme and you could watch it again, here are these guys doing it. It worked on the field, it had success. And you know, again, all of that deduction, if this coverage go here, if this coverage go here, right, like, this is the progression and the processing. And again, I got to. I could watch that on film and you start to visualize yourself in that role of building confidence. Okay. I feel. I feel very comfortable going out there and running this play versus a lot of different defenses. Right. Like, again, I do feel like I have the answers. The other part that really changed for me with Norv and again, this is the idea of playing faster is him really ingraining into my head that, like, listen, it doesn't matter if the left guard doesn't hold up his block. You can get back and still get this ball out and complete it. Given the state of our team and where we were at and just not good and young, that, like, pushing me that, like, I needed to get better, right, to compensate. Like, we don't necessarily have to hold up up front for that long. You can still complete this ball. You can still get back and make a quick decision and an accurate ball and throw it early, and we can Have a better chance at success. Yeah, right. And that was a, you know, a big wake up call for me of playing fast in the NFL. And the reality like again to go back to the reality of what, what is a clean pocket in the NFL like there the pockets I played at in college were ridiculous. Like I, you know what I'm saying? Like they, I, they were pitch picturesque. That's just not the reality in the NFL. And then again, this was really I, where I first started to get comfortable throwing balls with obscured vision because I had reptum so many times with Norv screaming at me throw it. You know, right before. Like and, and, and mind you, these are like 20, 25 yard routes that you're throwing downfield kind of blind. And that it was so choreographed. Right. I knew if I raced back on a seven step drop as fast as I could and I took a quick hitch and I just laid this ball inside the numbers that boom. The receiver was just gonna, it was just gonna run into him. Right? Like it just, I had done that. I could almost do it blindfolded when Urban telling me like obviously like I going back to the college, like I didn't love football, I didn't know what work looked like. I think he was right. And he pushed me there like the same thing there again with Norb. Like I didn't know what anticipation was, I didn't know what playing fast was. And he pushed me there. And I remember being so uncomfortable so often and all of a sudden now in the NFL I'm, I made some of these throws and again obviously doing it just helps the buy in. Right? Like, and having, you know, having a little bit of success.

But Alex, this is, it's so fun to like hear this. It's so fun. Like I like, you're like one of my best friends and I'm like learning all this new stuff. Right? We're so much stronger than we think we are. Right. Part of what people think when they prepare is like I have to know everything. It's like, no, actually you can't like just take in every bit of information all the time. You have to know what pieces of information are vital for you to take taken and what are like nice to haves. Do you see what I'm saying? If the point is that you're prepared for like a non clean pocket all the time.

Yeah.

Now all of a sudden you actually aren't paying attention as much probably to like did each person hold their block at each moment for each thing? Because you're like, no, I'M getting this out quick no matter what. Like there's something.

I don't know.

There's something. There's like so many lessons in there to me for like regular life of like you didn't know what you didn't know. And you also could study different things than you'd been studying.

It's hard for a quarterback to get these reps with 22 guys on the field, right? Like there just aren't that many occasions to do it. So all off season you rarely do it, but you do throw a lot of routes on air, right? Like quarterbacks and receivers spend lots of time together throwing routes on air. And it is very easy to go out there and take a nice easy drop and to throw a nice easy ball. And it looks good, right? Like it looks good and you're like balls don't touch the ground and it's like you're gone going through the motions. Obviously the hard part. Like again in those circumstances I didn't know how to practice. Like I didn't know how to really push myself in routes on air, right? Like listen, I go out that day and I'm going to get to throw so many of these 20 yard in cuts whereas I prior. Like you would just go back and do them and my priority was to complete them all. Like it was different than with nor, right? Like get freaking back and like lay this one and like, okay, all of a sudden he would step in and make me move on one and like really pushing myself through all the different potential what ifs in that environment. And then the same goes for then film, right? Like it was no different in the film room, right? Like really being more efficient in the film room about the reps I was looking at from the defense and then playing this mental game of the what ifs. If I get this look, where am I versus this play? Where am I going with the football, right? Like what is my answer? And like really pushing myself. And again that was something that I just didn't even know as a young player. I watched a lot of film but like I wasn't benefiting from it a lot. Like I wasn't putting myself in these hard situations of all of these knowing the questions to ask. And, and sometimes I would go in the film room and this play would come up and I'd be watching this event be like, oh, I don't, I don't know an answer here, right? Well I better freaking bring this up tomorrow, right? Like I better get an answer. What, dude, coach, what are we doing here? What If I get this look, you know, and like, troubleshooting that stuff and being more proactive, I think for me, it was a quick learning curve. And Norv, I think, helped me see this, like, taking more individual accountability of my.

Yeah.

Preparedness. Right.

Okay. I have another question. This will help me. How many offensive plays do you typically run in an NFL game?

60 to 75.

Great. If you went back after the game. Okay. And looked at your 60 to 75 offensive plays, and you have perfect information after. Okay.

Yeah.

And you look at what percentage of the time, even when you're playing well, you make the optimal play. Okay. I'm talking, like, not risk adjusted. I'm saying, like, knowing everything, you know.

Yeah.

Even when you're good, how often are you making the optimal play? The reason I'm asking is my sense based on, like, the Sean Payton formula and some of the things you're saying, it's like, it's not about making the optimal play every time. It's about making sure you don't massively screw it up.

Oh, it.

It.

It is definitely both of those.

Okay.

And this is the crazy part, because, like, when I was young in the NFL, I. That was probably my biggest weakness was the. The. The giant. The double minus. Right. Like the sack fumble.

Yeah.

Or the. The turnover. The interception. The critical error, I guess I would call. Doesn't take many of those.

Right.

Like 75 plays, two critical errors.

Yes.

And you lost the game, dude. You know, like, it's hard. And I think for me, I got in trouble. I pressed too soon. We were not good. I had lost two football games in my life before I got to the NFL. I lost one. I lost one in high school and I lost one in college as a starting quarterback. Right. Like, I hadn't played from behind. I had never struggled. And so all of a sudden, like, I'd be down 10 in the third quarter, which, by the way, is not total. It's nothing. That's nothing. That's like one play, one drive, and that game is flipped. Right. And like, I would just all of a sudden, in that environment, I pressed and I made the critical error. I tried to do too much. Like, I tried to, like, play outside of myself. And so that's the hard part. On the flip side of that, you will turn on the tape the next day, and these four or five plays determined the game.

Yeah.

And you don't know when they're coming.

Yeah.

They're not always in a critical situation. So, like, on. On both ends of this, the critical errors and Again, the game defining plays, the winning plays. There's a handful of these that really, when you turn on the film the next day, are again, decide these football games. And not that the ones in the middle don't.

Yeah.

It's just that again, you did your job. The play played out in a way that it wasn't significant there.

There's a Warren Buffett quote which is, you can't finish first if you don't first finish. Okay. And so, like, what you're saying, which reminds me of that, is sort of like, dude, if I make the two critical errors, I don't even get the chance to have the four or five plays that win the game. And then, of course, on the four or five plays that are going to win or lose the game, I have to be able to go and produce, but I have to have those plays. I can't be down 17 in the fourth quarter. Do you see what I'm saying?

Like, so this is like, yeah, like, you can't, like, you can't beat yourself before you beat the opponent, right? And like, I definitely did a lot of that early on in my career. And that's why there was this, like, slow evolution, I think, to, even for me, I kind of had to go through those, like, game manager years a little bit where, like, I stopped making the fucking critical error, right? Like, and we won. And I, and like, huh, we can win. Like, I don't, you know, like, that was also a learning moment for me. Of like, well, we can win and I don't have to do anything special. I think especially when I got to Kansas City finally. Of like, then gaining the confidence totally at times to really attack.

This is mad.

And when. And when to attack.

Yeah, this is Matt Nagy. It, you know.

Oh, yeah, like, go like, go like, dude, send it. We're going after him. And like, I, you know, this whole, like, fear nothing, attack everything totally mentality.

If someone told you as a rookie quarterback to go do that, you'd be having double negatives all the time because you're not prepared to go and like, fear nothing, attack everything. Don't you think?

Totally. And this is the other part. I think that we're like, that's hard. Is like, why, who's to say that? Like, you just have to go through that to ever come out the other side, right? Like, I, I do think there's ways to minimize. I, I, I talk a lot about this at espn and I think there's ways to minimize and help a quarterback's learning curve, a mentoring Being a big part of that, right? Like, I think that really speeds that process up. And I didn't have that. You know, it was really a baptism by fire, just kind of thrown out there. But it's no different with founders, right? Like, how often is the first time founder? I mean, it does happen, but, like, you have to make mistakes, you have to learn. You have to, like, you know, like, I think that's sometimes for sure a part of it as well. I get this all the time. When should young quarterbacks play, right? Like, when should they play? How? When. When should you put them out there? And I. I don't think there is a one size fits all. I think it depends on the situation, and it depends obviously on the person. You look at some of these quarterbacks that have played five, six years of college football because the college football situation has changed with nil, and these guys can transfer and make money and stay in college, and they've started it for five years. Like, I played two seasons again, I was so young and different. And so it isn't necessarily like a one size fits all. Like, a guy like Jaden Daniels can jump in, and obviously he's incredibly. He's way more gifted than me, but, like, he could jump in and have success. Bo Nix can jump in and have success. This guy's played more college football than anybody in the history of college football.

It's also like, how do they react when something goes wrong, right? And I think that, like, you know, that's part of the diligence and getting to know a person, right? That you're going to go draft, and a person that you're going to go back is like, when the thing happens, what are they going to do? Are they going to shrink into a hole? Are they going to, you know, like, it's. I was. As I'm hearing you talk, I didn't know it would be so different. Like, the sort of quick answer on why the NFL is harder than college for quarterbacks or people that don't know well is like, well, the speed and the athleticism is different. But what you just said is like, no, no, dude, there's a lot more than just like that. And then the deep analysis of why the speed is different and why that makes a difference of what you have to do. That was awesome. And it really applies to me in, like, so many ways.

This played a huge part on my experience, no matter where I was at. And it. It is not. It might. This might come off as a little controversial. It is. It is not a Hundred percent true. But I do think for the most part this is accurate. My experience of playing with an offensive head coach, okay, somebody that had shown a level of expertise and aptitude high enough as an assistant that he got hired as an offensive head coach was night and day different than when it was with a defensive head coach. The positions that I was put in, the answers to, the test that I was given, how demanding I was pushed, right? Like what they expected out of me. The growth that I had from being pushed under an offensive head coach was so different versus the defensive head coach. And I think you could. And I'm not. This isn't to say that, hey, a defensive head coach can't develop a first round quarterback. Obviously there's been multiple times this has happened. A lot of my defensive coordinating friends really hate when I say this. Vic Fangio, if he hears this, will text me like, what the hell? But for the most part, it's true. Like, I just. You look at some of these guys experiences when they come into the league under an offensive head coach, right? Like to get drafted by Kyle Shanahan, to get drafted by Andy Reid, right? Like Matt LaFleur. To be in the same system, to have the consistency to get to it again, to get pushed, to get to such an advanced level, it changes everything.

I think the coaching point you made in football is definitely different than other sports. And when you say, is there analogy to business? Look, I think that there are some leaders that you can point to who are sort of like, look, dude, I've done your job and I know how to help you do it. Right?

Yes, exactly.

And so I think that, like, just to go back to kkr, for instance, you know, Henry and George were so far, you know, ahead, but, but you know, when you'd ask them a question, they were actually pretty useful because they're like, yeah, like we've done it. There are some other people that you meet when they try to help you with their job and they're just kind of reasoning from first principles. And that's fine, you know, that's. That's useful also. But it is different than somebody who's like, no, no, I get it. Like, I did the exact thing and here's how. It's not. Like, here's how you might consider doing it, but. Because when you reason from first principles and you do it, it's fine. But it's more like I can reason from first principles too, man. Like, I am reasoning from first principles. I want to know what the fuck to do right now. You Know, and I. I think that somebody having done it is usually helpful.

I was never a free agent.

Yeah.

Ever. I mean, I got traded twice. I played. I played 16 years and I asked for my release.

Yeah.

After my 16th year. Okay. And became a free agent for the first time in my career. I would be far more proactive if I could go back about who I played for. I would be. I won the prize. I was the number one pick. I won that. I've signed a huge contract. Like, in hindsight, I would. I would not prioritize those things. I would much rather get to the right situation with the right people that fit me and, And. And less draft status or less money or less contracts. And even over the years, like, I, if I could go back, would. Would again, I would. I would be solving for a different thing. I think of this as a founder and you're negotiating your Series A or B, and this is. This is competitive. I don't think necessarily getting the best terms is always the most important. Does coaching matter as much on that side? Right. Like who you curate on your board, who is on your team, Who. Who can you call for counsel?

Well, I mean, it matters less than football, in my opinion. I think that. I don't know how you attribute the credit for, like, your success at various stops between the coaching and the playing, but I would bet you you would attribute more of the value to the coaching than a founder would attribute to their board. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, let's just say you're like, you know, in Kansas City, andy Reid deserves 25% of the credit. You deserve 75% or whatever the mix is. Andy, that. I don't think most founders rightfully would say that their boards just, you know, are worth 25% of their credit or whatever. However, the best founders should be able to command great terms and the right person, like, they don't have to choose because it's so competitive that it's just kind of something where, like, free agency. Yeah. Right. It really is. Like, they kind of get to have both. But I think to your point, on the right person, some of them probably don't use the right metrics to determine the right person. There are people that are great salespeople at, like, telling you how great you're going to be. That might not be actually the thing you need, which is someone who can. Whatever you need as the founder. Some people might be, like, I want to call them when I want to strategically go back and forth. Cool. Pick that person. Some people might be like, well, what I actually need is I need someone to like, be there when it's bad. Right. And just to like, pick me up. Cool. That might be a different person, you know, Like, I think that most of it comes down to kind of knowing yourself and knowing like, what are the things you need in order to become, you know, the peak version. Like in the founders I've worked with, some of them want like, strategic, deep discussion. A lot of them want just like help on the people stuff, you know, and it's just different. They're just different folks. And so I think it's a lot about knowing who you are as a person in terms of what you get as your board member.

Yeah. And I think that makes sense because again, as I think about it, like, I thrived. I really thrived under two, two coaching styles. One, I needed the answers. Right. Like, I needed as much clarity as possible. I did not operate in the gray very well. Right. And so I needed. I needed that to be clarified for me and communicated clearly. And then I. This is going to sound interesting. Like, I needed an aggressive mindset also.

What does that mean?

Like anybody that's an. Again to have become an offensive head coach, you like to score points, you've had success. Like, there is a level of we're just going to outscore you, dude. Like, we're going to. We're going to bring it. Stop this. This happens a lot. Like, as a. Again, when I had a defensive head coach, like, that was not the priority to just outscore. Like, it was to like play field position. It was to help the defense. It was to run the clock. Right. Like, I had never even thought about those things.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden it was all. It was always easier. I played great when the play calling was very aggressive and I could make it right. Whereas it was when it was the other way of, like, hey, go out there and everything was risk adverse. And you just had to know the situations when to take the chance like that. Like, those were like completely different scenarios when you think about it from a mindset standpoint. For me as a quarterback, like, I did a lot better of like, call the bomb and I'll like keep calling it. And when they. Until they give us the look, I'll make it right. Does that make sense? Like, I can. I know. And versus the other way of, like, hey, don't screw this up. Don't turn the ball over. Right. Like we need to be. And then. But. But that one chance, like, you got to know when to take.

Yeah.

Like you're like, wait, what? What? Like, that's just anyway interesting you say.

That because, like, I feel like, what, what I respond to, leadership wise. I, I can, I think I can tie this like directly back to my parents. But. But for me, it's like, I need somebody who is kind of fearless. Right. I thrive the most when someone's fearless. She's like, yo, let's go. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about making mistakes. This is why they'll play for you. Like, just you. You got it. But the other thing I want as part of that is like, I've given you all the information I'm going to give you now you decide. Like, I need. I want to be able to decide. I don't want to be told what to do. I really, really, really want, like, tell me everything, you know, but then like, let me, let me decide, you know, like, and I think that I. So I really don't, like when someone's like, don't do this, or, you know, you gotta do this. I'm like, just tell me what you think and then let me decide. The other thing I want, which is my mom, is more like, you're here for a reason. Right. Like, what I want is somebody be like, look, like, of course we're gonna let you decide because, like, you're here, you know, that's why you're here, you know. And I want them to trust that, like, I'm not going to do dumb shit if you like, let me decide. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. And that's, that's probably actually like subtly what I'm saying is like the given, like the play calling, there is a dictator. Like, there's an element of like, we trust you.

Yeah.

You are here to go do that versus the other way. There is an element of like, we don't really.

Yeah. And that's what I'm saying.

Like, you know, and like, if you.

Don'T trust me, that's okay. But like, then I don't. That's. Now this doesn't work for either of us.

Yeah, you don't want to be there. You don't want to be in that kind of environment. Right.

I'm like, I. Yeah, I don't. You want to earn the right if you don't get it. The conversation that I want to have is like, oh, that's cool. You don't trust me, that's fine. What do I need to do to make you trust me? Because there's no fun for me and I can't imagine this is all that fun for you, but, like, now, let's get real specific as to, like, what do you need to see, you know, in order for you to feel good enough to kind of let me do it the way I want it.

Yeah. Yeah, Sam.