The Importance of Weavers - [Glue Guys, EP.56]

Pivoting on this sort of like it's a failure if your child disappoints or makes a mistake or doesn't achieve or whatever it is, it's actually a desired outcome. This is. It's not a bug. It's, you know, it's a feature. We want this. Invite it, push for it, encourage it, because then you can be the one that's there to support them through that. And that's how you build resilience.

All right, today, I'm so excited it than that you're here. You know, I was mentioning to Shane and Alex that I think you have the highest overlap for Glue Guy topics of any of our guests ever, which is a high compliment. We've had some good guests who have high overlap. But, you know, you are a former professional athlete. You have that level of athletic excellence. You are an amazing leader that I've seen firsthand. But also in your current role of, you know, head of Menlo School, which is a school in the Bay Area that's high performing and also has great kids, you also are a parent of wonderful children. And in the role of head of school, you know, you see kids every day and have advice and perspective on them, but also advice and perspective for us as parents, because you also see parents every day. And so I cannot wait to see where we end up today. And I'm really grateful that you're here. Thank you for doing it.

Well, it's a pleasure and honor to be here, and I'm grateful to be invited.

Okay, well, I want to start with. There's an article you recently wrote. Okay. That I got kind of a bootleg copy of, which I think speaks to the power of the article that people are sending it around even when it's, you know, not directly intended for me, but it was called the Transformative Power of Teams. You wrote it in the Menlo School magazine. And I was very curious about a lot of times when you write something, you're inspired to write it by something that is going great, but sometimes it's also something that's not going great and you want to send a message.

Right.

And I was curious, what was the article about? What was the inspiration for it? And were there both impetuses of positive and negative that made you write it?

You know, so look, the school that I work in is a really fortunate place. I don't have to spend any time figuring out we don't need any more buildings. I don't. I've got a great faculty, fantastic student population. The things that most school Leaders have to wrestle with, I've been freed from. And so the question for me as the leader of the organization is like, how are you going to spend your time? And certainly there's an argument to be made for just like, keep conserving what we've already got and keep the trains running on time. But I choose to try to use this platform to do something bigger than that. I, to contribute to society in maybe a larger way than just graduating 150 really wonderful kids to go out into the world and hopefully make a positive impact. And so as I look out over the horizon and because I'm in Silicon Valley and I spend a lot of time talking to leaders who are looking over the horizon all the time, the larger trends that I'm seeing in society, and particularly the ones that I think adhere us as a democracy, are worrisome to me and not getting into politics, like, I'm just seeing them, I'm seeing trends towards an orientation towards the self, an orientation towards sort of like, look, get yours while you can and you know, everybody else is just kind of on their own. And David Brooks writes a lot about rippers and weavers of society and I'm a weaver and I believe in the weaver characteristics and values. And so the impetus for the article was really because I want our kids to go out and be weavers in the world. And I think the orientation towards the group, the orientation towards the larger good or the purpose, larger than oneself, which is on our mission statement, I just think that's really critical. The world doesn't need more smart kids. The world needs, I think, kids that are, they're going to contribute to a society that thinks about more than just ourselves as individuals. So that was, that was the inspiration for the article. And again, very privileged to be in a place where I get to write about that and not about like, we need a building or why can't we pay our teachers?

It's super interesting because I think for, just for folks listening that don't know, you're, you're obviously the head at Menlo School. Menlo School is maybe, maybe the top, if not one of the top high performing, most competitive high schools in, in all of Northern California. Maybe in all of California. Right.

Like, and then, and I think, Alex, that probably means in the country then, right to your point.

Right, like extremely high achieving kids.

Oh, well, you just said it. You know, let's, let's, let's, you know, let's not get off, let's get off our California high horse here.

No, but Like Shane, this will lead to the point the parents at this school are the most, some of the most high achieving parents like in the country. Right. Like it's still, it's the heart of Silicon Valley. Like these are the, you know, I.

Gotta look out for my. From our listeners in the east, in the eastern.

I know, I know. Assembly line mentality from Detroit.

Yes, but, but Ravi, I mean, sorry, Shane. These are all of you know, Ravi's people, right. Like that, that are there super, you know, and my point is saying that like they were high achieving, they want, they, they have obviously tried to instill that I think for the most part in their kids. Hence the point like they're trying to get in. It is very competitive to get into the Menlo school. And a lot of that I think can foster whether it's in school or sports. Like it does foster this selfish mentality. Right. Like this. I, like, I got to get mine, I have to get ahead. It is not a team first thing, it's not about being a good teammate. And I struggle with this as a parent because I want the same things. I want the best for my kid. Right. Like he plays team sports, but like I want him to go out and play well. And it's hard not to focus on those individualistic kind of things, stats and even in school kind of same thing. So I'm so interested. Like, do you get pushback on this from kind of the, you know, again the parents, the, the general culture of the school is this. I guess obviously it's something you fell and started to be long winded here and that you directly push back with these kind of articles and how you foster and talk and like trying to develop Weavers.

I think everybody agrees with it in theory. And you're all parents. I'm a parent. We have three daughters. They're all actually adults now and out in the world. And so we're in a slightly different phase. But, but everybody understands that theoretically. And then, and then you get blinded by your love for your kid.

Yep.

Right. Like these are, these beings are the things that you love more than anything else on the planet. And, and it's hard not to sort of fall prey to that, to that love. And, and we like, we have little moments of temporary insanity as parents that I think are forgivable and, but, but it's hard not to resist the transactionality of it. I mean we're seeing it in sports. If you look at, I'm, I'm, I'm dating myself, I'm, I'm probably Slightly older than you guys, but, but the rise of the athletics industrial complex in our country and the rise of club teams and that's about transactionality, that's about, hey, if you give me this, I will get your kid to college or I'll get your kid to the pros. And it's hoop dreams, you know, monetized. And that wasn't the case when I was a kid growing up in the late 80s. You still played basketball for your high school team because like, that was the pinnacle. Playing in front of your friends and with your buddies and that was everything. And aau, if anything, was an afterthought. But right after I graduated from high school, that all changed. And so, so as a parent, like, you're a fool if you don't have your kid in all the clubs with the, you know, throwing coach and the, you know, this extra person and the weight trainer for your kid at 11 and all that kind of stuff. None of, I don't know, I don't know what your backgrounds are, but like, I didn't have any of that when I was a kid. I just, I just played because I.

Loved it and I had a wall and that was my coach, you know, you know the old, good old days where you take a tennis ball and you threw it against the wall and you picked out a brick and you like, I'm gonna hit that brick. All right now. I'm gonna hit that brick. That was, that was my, that was my coach growing up.

Shane, when did you start specializing in basketball? Just to add another finer point on what you're saying, what year did you specialize in basketball alone?

Well, I played baseball throughout high school, so I played baseball my junior year and I loved it here. I was, you know, it's crazy, right?

You think about, you're you, you're a 13 year professional and you were playing baseball in high school. You, you talk about everything. Dan, you're saying the specialization expectation from these clubs for kids is at 9, 10 years old, for most of whom are not even going to play beyond high school mathematically. And you know, you got professionals who were playing base playing multiple sports in high school.

Big strike zone, Shane. That's a big strike zone.

My favorite story and quick, quick story, sorry is on my mind. Coach Orlando hall of Fame coach at Country Day where I played baseball, I was the first baseman. It was really hard to overthrow me at first base. I was a really good basement. I hit for singles at that point. But I was a very good defensive and first baseman and I got on base, and we're playing a Blissfield, which is very, very good team in Michigan. And I'm on first base and it's tie game and there was a shot to right center. And I'm like, I'm scoring, I'm scoring. So I take off. I'm not very fast. I'm taking off. You know, I got Coach Orlando waving me home, so I know there's gonna be a play at the plate. And like, my instincts took over and all of a sudden, from about five feet out, I'm like, I gotta go for it. So I dive head first, you know, Pete Rose style, into, into home plate, okay? And I beat the tag. I'm safe. You know, everyone's going crazy. It's like the sixth thing, like, you know, tie game is crazy. Coach Orlando runs over and says, shane, Shane, Shane, that was such an incredible play. Never do that again. I don't have enough insurance money to pay for that if you got hurt. And you have much bigger things to do than this game against Blissfield. And so I learned my lesson. Not only was I playing, I was playing very hard back. Yeah, but, but, but that, like, when did this change? I mean, in the education front, was there an event? Was it, was it gradual? Did we wake up one day and, and we had a horde of parents that, that said, okay, it's, it's, it's about getting, getting my kid theirs. Walk us through it.

I wish I had the answer to that. I think it's been gradual in our society and I think it has to, I mean, we have to link it to illusions of scarcity in, in the world. So maybe it's as the world became more global and the country became less domestic, which I think is generally a good thing for the planet. I think maybe as we moved away from the illusion of homogeneity as a value and into heterogeneity, and there's, there's more great minds that are out there than we were, you know, giving access to in the educational system. And, but I think as that happened, a side effect of that was sort of a sense of scarcity. And I think we're seeing that play out in the political realm right now, and the consequences of that, but, but that caused real anxiety. And if you wanted, look, all of your children have already won the lottery. You have them in great schools. They are going to be fine in their life. They've got safety nets under their safety nets. But it's really hard to see that, I think, as a parent, because all you're hearing is like, well, their world's going to be different than yours and there are no jobs anymore coming right out of college. And so the desire to preserve optionality for your children, I think is a really powerful thing. And if you back up from that, then the logical set of behaviors is do everything that you can to give your kids choices in the world. And so if they show even an inkling of interest in something, like get them nine coaches for it and go deep on it and, you know, throw a bunch of money at it and drive to Fresno for the weekend and like, do all the things that you have to do to pursue whatever that interest is, whether it's violin or, you know, or water polo or whatever it is. And you look, you all, you're not that far away from having young kids. I suspect that you remember the time when the parent turned to you and said, do you have your kids in kung fu yet? And you're like, ah, forgot about kung fu. Like, we better get on it. So we do it to each other too. So I think there's this sort of also, you know, we're in the echo chamber where we encourage our worst instincts with each other. And it's a really strong family that says, like, not playing the game, our kids are going to be fine. They're on the right track. I have faith that they're going to have a good life and they're going to have options because they're interesting, curious, creative kids. And like, that is a rare family that is able to resist those messages, I think.

Yeah, I love that because, like, then there's here, there's pressure. And you just said it. Like, our kids all go to great schools. Like, they have a great support system. There's pressure that if your kid is working at grade level, like, you're behind.

Yeah.

Like, it's insane. It's insane. If you're. If your child is not reading above grade level, doing math above grade level like that you are behind, your kid is going to fail. Not good enough. And it's, it is to this point of the echo chamber and being competitive. Like, I mean, parents can't help but boast about this stuff, right? Like, you go, you go to these things and it's like, you know, and it does, right? It's like, am I not. Am I doing enough? Am I failing my kid because I don't have them in this specialty math tutoring program?

Well, a couple of things, Alex. I completely agree with that. Completely agree. And I think a couple things come to mind. One, I Think that. I think that when you are like an ambitious or high achieving person, like you can imagine like trying to optimize everything. And I think people that are ambitious and high achieving, like, they start wanting to optimize their kids and like, you know, that ends up being this thing which like, well, couldn't I just do more? What about this? Isn't there something else I could be doing? And I think that my dad told me one time, he's like, look, we had the benefit of like coming from a place where we had a lot of other stressors in our life. We couldn't put all of this on the kids when you were smaller. We had a lot of other things on our minds. It wasn't about optimizing, you guys, it was about making sure we didn't like lose our job or whatever it might be, like take care of family. So I think some of it is also like scarcity on the kid thing, but also like too much time to focus on that. I think that's one thing. I think the other thing that this brings me to. And Shane, I give you a lot of credit for this. And Alex, you too, part of it. You just need friends who bring out the best in you rather than the worst in your instincts. Like, you got to be able to talk to each other because it's much easier to be sanguine about someone else's problems and to help them with like, hey, look, what are we talking about? We're your kid's great, you know, like, I spend time with this kid. What are we talking. Shane, you do that with me, you know, I hope I do that with you guys. Part of it is just like chatting with each other and remembering. Like, it's just, it's gonna be fine. Like, you know, I promise you, you don't need to worry about this. And I think you gotta choose your peer group there, even as a grown up, you know, rather than getting egged on in the kung fu way.

One of the things, one of the thought exercises that we try to do with our families is to have them close their eyes and imagine that everything was gonna work out. And if it was, if you knew that in your heart, like if you knew that for certain, how would you parent? What would you do? What would be the lessons that you would want to emphasize with your kids? What would be the messages that you would send to them? Because I think we send a lot of unconscious messages to our children about what our expectations are or what our secret hopes are for them. And they're subtle like where I am, the neighborhood school is Stanford. And that's just ridiculous. I mean, nobody gets into Stanford. And. And just by virtue of the fact that you wear the Stanford sweatshirt around the house is sending a message to your kid about what your expectations or your hopes maybe are maybe not your expectations. And so I think being thoughtful about it is. It's really hard to do. It's much more subtle than I think we sometimes give it credit for it. I think it's hard to be a parent right now as a result. This is a tough time to be raising children.

I couldn't agree more. I feel like I'm so conscious sometimes of like the things that I unconsciously, the pressure I may be applying to any.

Alex, we're in the middle of football season now. You know, you've not given us an update on, on your son's journey as a quarterback. You know, speaking of, of being shooken off and sending messages, how can you give us an update, please?

Totally. Yeah.

Thanks.

So than. My oldest is a freshman in high school and I have. I didn't start playing football. I wasn't allowed to play tackle football until I was a freshman. And I've kind of adopted the same thing with my kid. Even though I. My son, even though I grew up in a big football family. And so I've like purposely held him back. But now he's playing freshman football and certainly a lot of his teammates have been playing for a while. And so like I do there is this pressure that like I wanna, to Shane's point, like I, I do want to make sure he's like caught up to speed. Right. And he does want to play quarterback, which is like this added pressure. You know, his dad obviously played professionally and so. And do kids know about that and talk about that? You know, so I'm even conscious about do it when I show up, like just like by being there, am I adding pressure, you know, and so he's played five games. Shane, he is splitting time. He plays half the game as defensive end and he plays half the game as quarterback.

Oh, wow.

And he also does some kicking, so he's got. Which I love. Again, he's getting, he's getting a little dabble of all three phases. I'm not sure he's a little undersized to be playing defensive end. His team's not real big, but he's bad. He battles Shane, he's battling in there. He's a tough kid and so I just love watching him play. I love watching it. I love being there and Again though. But like Shan, I'm so, I like, I probably overthink like anything and everything revolving around football. Like even just like the fact of like going and playing catch with my son, you know, which is like one of the greatest joys as a dad.

I believe it's the greatest joy. I believe the greatest joy as a parent that you can have in my heart. I believe that.

I don't know like to the point, but I don't think he's overthinking it though. You know, don't worry about it, you know.

No, I know.

I, I agree.

And also like it is what it is at this point, right? Like he just has to deal with it and so. But he loves it. He is loving football, which is also the best thing. Like it, you know, one of the, the coolest things I think, you know, he's going to a new school as a freshman, which I did and didn't know anybody. But there's like nothing better than doing the summer freshman football program. And you come in with 70 friends, you right, like. And so. But I do I again I, I overthink this and I think this brings me to my question, Dan is like I actually think part of this and I don't know how you feel about this is like our approach to failing. Like we like like that failing is unacceptable. And I actually think that we like this is like the foundation that we all have wrong and that failing is actually learning and that it's foundamental and these kids learn to be independent and, and one of your favorite words, Ravi's like agency. And this only comes from failing, right? And them having to be able to figure it out and work through things. And I think us as a culture, especially high achieving culture, we've just like missed the boat on this. So I don't know if. Is that something you talk about or think about at all?

You know, actually I think this is the place where athletics and, and arts too. I would put this, put arts in this conversation. Two of the few places in society that kids are allowed to be anything but perfect these days. Like the drive for perfection in their academic life, in their social media life, which is enormous for them. And I think we're starting to see some revolt against that in adolescence. But it's still the choice that our kids have. You're either on social media or you don't have a social life. And it's a bum choice for our kids to have. And if you're on social media, you sure as heck better be perfect. You Better not post a video that's the wrong video or wear the wrong shirt or whatever. It is like massive pressure, but in sports and in arts, you could still make mistakes. Like you can be a.300 hitter and be an all star. And I just think, I think that has massive value that we're not taking enough advantage of. We just, we redid our athletics strategic plan a year ago. And at the top of it is like, athletics is about the development of character. And I don't actually, and I know that's probably in a lot of people's strategic plans, but I actually think as we move to a world with AI and robotics, I actually think that these tools are going to magnify the morality of the communities that they serve or the societies that they serve. And I think athletics is one of our last great hopes for teaching real character. I mean, you know, Shane, before we got on, you were talking about the leadership work that you're doing with your son's basketball team. Like, that's fundamentally character education work. And I know we all as, as athletes in our own realm. Like, the greatest thing that I took from playing water polo and playing basketball were the character elements that serve me today. The, the other stuff was just kind of details along the way. As I look back on, you know, the 57 year old that I am today, I learned more from the coaches that I had who taught me how to be a functioning member of society. So what I don't think we're doing is making that explicit enough. And I think that's our work and our strategic plan is to try to bring that to the fore and name it. And Shane, you were talking about having, you know, your son's teammates write it out. And I think that's actually where the work is. That's, that's. We all took it, but it was kind of implicit lessons and if you were lucky, you'd have a coach that would make it explicit. But I think this is really actually key and it's, it's. I don't mean to overstate it, but I think it's key for our society, for our democracy. Like, I think we need to be doing more of this and we need to be thinking about sport as a way to, as a vehicle in.

Yeah.

Yep.

My favorite. I do a lot of corporate speaking and one of my favorite questions that comes up over and over again, especially with young people is, you know, how do I deal with a ball hog? You know, how do I deal with someone who is trying to, to absorb all the credits? It's like, yeah, that's easy. Like in a locker room you just, you know, you say, hey dude, pass the ball on. Which doesn't work in the real world, I guess. But there's so many lessons, you know, I wouldn't be here today obviously without, you know, my mentors like Coach K and Coach Keener growing up and Bert Kozlowski and just, just an embarrassment of unbelievable teachers and senseis that I, that I learned from one of the, you know, we're talking about being a great teammate. And one of the stats, one of the charts I, I bring out for my corporate speeches is, you know, Google has, has kept track of the zeitgeist ever since. The ability to Google something has, has been around. And so they assign a Google score to something. And so the word leadership or leader has always been a top of mind of things that have been searched and it's been assigned a score. I think the lowest it's ever been is 80. And so that means people are always asking, you know, do we have leadership? What's a good leader look like? How do I improve my leadership? How do we get rid of leaders? And so always on top of mind. And when you look up the Google score for teammates, the peak year of teammate searchability has been a one, a one. And so I tell people we are so obsessed as a culture with leadership and the narrative of leadership and what leadership should look like and everything goes into leadership. And we are not obsessed at all. Actually the opposite. There's apathy to being a great teammate. And so my argument is teammateship is just as important as leadership, especially in this day and age. And when people say teammateship, I'm like, yeah, the act of being a great teammate. Right? And that's, that's something that you've lived throughout your teams. And of course, you know, Alex, remember and I talk about this often. That's the game, the, the human, the.

Human game is to be a teammate.

Right. And everything that we've evolved from has, has come from the fact that we were original teammates as, as we evolve with opposable, opposable thumbs.

Well, also, I think a couple things, Shane, just to like bring it back to a few things that Dan was saying and you were saying than earlier when you were talking about the like messages we send our kids. Shane always reminds us like this quote he likes, which is the lessons we learn from our parents are the ones when they weren't trying to teach us something. And that isn't good and bad. Right. I think it's in all directions. I think about that all the time. They're going to observe what you do, right? And they're going to take lessons from that. And, you know, that's in small things and big things. The other thing, Shane, even if you do believe in, like, the power of leadership, which I think we all do, like, we point out these people who have been really important to us, I would bet that most of the time there were, you know, maybe a servant leader, right? So they're there to help us be great or be great teammates. You're like, okay, that's interesting. And then the other thing is, I think about this, and I'm proud of this, I think that the definition of leadership, the only one that actually matters is like, do people want to follow you? The rest of them are just made up. Like, everything comes back. You can only be a leader if people want to follow you. And so if you really get back to what does that mean? It's like, okay, how do you create and be someone that someone wants to follow? My very strong suspicion is that you're generally a weaver rather than a ripper, right? My very strong suspicion is that you actually are a pretty good teammate. And then you can come up with examples that are counter. But they were like, the exceptions that.

Prove the rule, right?

Like, ultimately, you need to create an environment where people want to follow you. That is the thing. And that actually has a heck of a lot to do with being a really good teammate. You know, like, I would imagine that that is part of the reason that you were a good leader in basketball, Shane. You know, even when you were the best player, it's like, well, people wanted to follow. They wanted to come along, you know, on your team. So I don't know. That's something that I think about a lot.

It's a good discussion, though, because I think it's sort of like the discussion of wealth in America. We have a very narrow definition in our particular society, but it's not every culture that has a narrow definition. Like, if you go outside of the US the definition of what a leader looks like changes radically. And I actually think gets a lot broader and the same with wealth, right? Like, wealth in our country is defined by your bank account and your house and maybe the toys that you have. But in the rest of the world, it's about spiritual life. It's about whether you have mentors, whether you have close relationships with extended family. So when we send our kids away, we have a program where we send our kids to the developing world to do Service. And a lot of schools do that. It's probably the most transformative program that we have in the school because the kids come back changed, and it's not. They come back with more humility, more perspective, and they've seen sort of like what the definition of a leader looks like. It's not always the great man theory kind of version of leadership. It's not the charismatic, stand in front of everybody and rally the troops first over the wall kind of leader. It's the lead from within. It's the high integrity, the moral leadership that's quieter, that's maybe a little more subtle, maybe even hard to detect if you watch the group dynamic. But it's really the heart of the team. And I think actually it would be good for our kids to have a broader definition of what leadership could look like. We need them to actually step into those roles. And I think about this a lot. I think, how do we help them with that?

Can you make that fun? I mean, that's my first. When I walk into my classroom with my basketball team, I'm teaching about leadership. My first thought is, how do I make this fun and actionable and attainable? And I'm trying to put in lessons of leadership through maybe funny games or interactive games where we're hooting and hollering at each other. But at the end, the parable is, yeah, how you act is how people perceive you. So what's your advice to teach young.

People how do you make it fun? I'm not sure.

I don't know.

I don't know. That's a tough question. I don't know if I have the how do you make leadership fun? I do think leadership isn't fun.

I disagree a little bit. I want to push back again. I do understand, like, there's this, like. There's this, like, Hollywood idealistic view of what a leader is. He's by himself, he's stoic, he's serious. Right. Like, strong, all that stuff. Right. And obviously, I'm not saying those qualities aren't at times needed, but like, anybody that's a connector or Weaver, like, I think there is some joy that has to be had in whatever you're doing that does connect and bind people. And certainly a sense of humor. I think at times is necess, like, necessary. Like. Like, you know, the Shane. Like, there are times when things are going so bad that, like, the person that can make you laugh, like, in those moments, like, in the strength and again, the perspective that that can give when you feel like everything's Crashing down. Right. Like, I think that's important. And again, like, to have, like, I've been around some, you know, and again, like all of us, but like amazing leaders, like, some of them have amazing senses of humor and they love what they're doing and there's. They're filled with joy. And in some ways, for me personally, when I've, like, I think taken things too seriously and I've talked about this, right. Like, those have the biggest impact on me, those people, you know? And so, yeah, I don't know. It's just my, like, again, I. I think it's like, very important to connect people and to be a weaver again, you have to love what you're doing. There has to be a sense of humor at times, I think.

Well, it goes to Ravi's point, like, if. If the definition of leader is somebody with followers, like, who the heck wants to follow somebody who, like, miserable is miserable or who. Who's a pessimist? Like, this is not going to work out. Follow me. You know, like, it's just. It's not a thing.

Yep.

I think, I think, Shane, to your point, maybe two things. One, I think, I think we all agree, look, generally speaking, joy helps with duration. You might follow somebody who's going to help you win for a short period of time, but if you're going to do it for a long time, you generally need to be having some fun. Like a big thing. For us in our house, we talk about this all the time. Like, different teams is just like, make sure it's fun. Part of what I want is just for our kids to know that it is a happy house because in like, where we can like, mess around and like, you know, and I. That's like, very important to me. Just so, like, when they think of our house, they think of it as like a place that they. That there was fun, you know, more so than anything else. But Shane, I actually think that the most positive things you do on leadership, at least to me, are when you tell the stories of good teams you've been on. Because they're fun, Right? Like when you tell the stories of what it's like to be on a great team.

Team.

Yeah, right. It is so seductive. It is so like, oh, my gosh, I want that. Right. Like when you, like, you should, you know, I don't know. I don't actually know if you've told this story on glue guys, but, you know, you should tell the touch the people speech story, right? Because think about how ridiculous is. This is like a iconic Team, it is an iconic team. LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, 2027 game winning streak, 26 game winning streak. And like the thing that is remembered most is the speech from you. Like when you hear that, like that is what makes it fun. It's like, well, what does it mean to lead? And so like I do think that like those things help make people realize that you can lead from anywhere and that the things you remember from these amazing things are like you being overserved and then you know, giving a all time speech on a bus after the super bowl.

Right?

Like, don't you think?

Yes, winning is fun. And so when we talk about, you know, when you're out in the world, you realize the folks who haven't been in that locker room and haven't experienced, you know, going through something so difficult and coming out on the other side, you do it together. And when you do it, no one cares how many points you score. You know, nobody cares who gets the credit. You just did this amazing thing that you maybe didn't think was possible when you, when you started it, right? And like that, like, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure if that for you, like you, you still miss those games in Frankfurt, Germany of going down the road, having a great road win, having a few beers in the locker room afterwards. There's nothing like it like in the post athletic world, right? And you feel, you feel bad for people who don't get that, get that stroke and that feeling of like, man, yeah, we did it. And that's the value prop. Winning is fun, Alex. You know, when you win in on a Sunday, you come in the building on, on, on the Tuesday and Wednesday, everyone's in a happy mood. No one's sour. You know, the bounce food tastes better. You know, you're making jokes and when you're going through a losing streak, it is miserable. You know, I mean just there's no eye contact. You don't, you're tired of, you're looking at your coach, you're tired of, you're looking at your teammates. It is like the worst. And so winning, you know, doesn't cure everything, but it cures a lot.

It cures a lot, covers all manner of sins. I will say though, one of the things that I've realized in leadership that I think probably you3 have as well, is that in athletics the task is really concrete and defined. And it doesn't mean that it's easy, but it means that it's really clear. You get immediate feedback, you know exactly where you Stand. Everybody knows where the team is. You either won or you lost. And that's not most of the leadership that I think we all practice on a daily basis. It's not always clear whether we're winning or. Or not. It's not always clear what the feedback is. And I think some of the hardest work as leaders is, is trying to discern what the truth is and what the reality is that we're facing. And so that. That nuance, I think it can. So athletics is a great training ground for it. And if you don't have that foundation, it's really hard to then move into a more ambiguous leadership space and be successful.

What success have you had in teaching that mentality to. To your teams and to your faculty?

It's interesting. So the. The team that I took over, I followed a guy who had been here for 20 years, did incredible work for this school, Literally built every building on the campus and, you know, brought in the faculty.

And how long ago was that? Then?

Thirteen years ago, I started here. So. So my first meeting, I had this great plan for my senior leadership team. I was going to come in. I had three hours with them, and great. I thought it was a great plan for a meeting. And I was going to start by asking them, you know, when you function well as a team, what does it look like? And what are the behaviors? And, you know, I was going to try and get to sort of some of the principles and the values of the. Of the group and work off of that. And so I said. I asked my first question, like, what's it look like when you're functioning well? And dead silence. And I thought, like, what's going on here? And finally the CFO speaks up and says, well, we don't really function as a team.

Oh, no.

Like, well, what happens in the meetings? Do you guys meet? Yeah. Yeah, we met, but we walked in, and the head of the school would just tell us what's what and give us our marching orders, and then we'd all leave.

Oh, no.

And so. So the whole sort of meeting plan went out the window, and it became like that was. That was the foundation of, okay, now it's time to start from literally ground zero and start building a team and figuring out, okay, what do we stand for and how are we going to work together? How do we learn to trust each other? And I. And I. I think we're actually functioning at a really high level now. When Covid hit all the preparation of the. Whatever that was, eight or nine years kicked in, and this school Navigated Covid exceedingly well because we had a leadership team that had put in the time to prepare for that moment of adversity. And you're right, winning is great. And when you're winning, it's super fun. And it does cover all manner of sins when it comes to whether the leadership exists. But when Covid hits, when you're in a pandemic and nobody knows what's going to happen next, and there's a lot of fear in the environment, that's when having a strong leadership team matters most.

Can I ask you about your dad?

Yeah.

And for everybody out there, fans, dad was his high school principal as well, was mine. And this is really unique. I haven't met many people that. That obviously had this experience of being the principal's kid. My dad was such a. Obviously, like, intimate part of him every single day. I mean, he knew my friends, he knew what was going on in my social life. There was a level of transparency and trust that you had to have with him, and that has forever changed our relationship, you know, and brought us, you know, so close. But at the same time, too, there's this stigma that you're the principal's kid. Right. And socially dealing with that. And that was the only reason that, you know, I ever did anything good was because I was the principal's kid. And it was a, you know, a boost for me. But anyway, on that topic, what were the things you learned? I mean, we talked about mentorship. You're doing that now, right?

You.

You are running a school, and you got. Your dad did it, and, you know, do you think you do it the same way he did? What did you learn? I guess all of that.

So my father was. Is one of the great role models in my life. He was a son of a farmer from western Massachusetts who, on a lark, decided to take an interview with a school in Hawaii, graduating from college and decided he needed one. One winner in Hawaii after 22 winners in New England. And. And then he stayed for 40 years. And look, he. He built an incredible school. He, you know, got good Barry Obama story for, you know, he was a student there when my father was there. And. And I think my father's integrity and clarity of principles was probably the thing that I carry with me most from him. And look, that. That also. And I don't know if you had one of those moments, but that also extended to when I was. When I screwed up in high school. Like, there was no quarter given, like, that. The principles were going to be applied to me just the Same as everybody else, maybe even worse. And at the time, I felt that was radically unfair. And looking back on it and now being a father myself, like, that must have been excruciating.

Yeah, yeah, just like, way worse for him than for you.

Way worse. But, but the, the value lesson of, like, the principles matter more than anything else. Like, when you give up your morals, you give up everything. And that's just, that just served me incredibly well in my role here because you're always, like, the hardest decisions are always decisions where you're tempted to maybe cut a corner on a value that you hold because it would just be the path of least resistance and it would make it so much easier. And, you know, if we just cut this kid some slack because their parent, you know, can do this thing for us as a school, it, it's always tempting, and it's always as soon as you give it up, you, you never get it back. And so, so the lessons and I don't know. Alex, you're smiling. So maybe your father was the same. Like, he was, he was tough, but he was tough for the right reasons. And I, I, I think that's probably the thing that I took from him that mattered the most.

Such a similar experience. I felt like everybody thought I had a leg up, and I felt like it was so much harder. Right. And I think it was kind of the intentional thing to that point. Like, he wanted to make sure too, that everything was earned. And even though it felt harder at the time, like, obviously looking back, like, and Ravi says this all the time, it's like nothing better than earned success. Right?

Totally.

And again. And I also just think the uniqueness of that relationship in those years is, is so cool and obviously, so, yeah.

Learn some resilience too. I mean, I definitely took my lumps for being the principal's kid when I was a ninth grader, you know, like in the 80s. But there was a little more sort of like, say, physical confrontation. I learned a little toughness too, because that also wasn't fair. But, you know, you survive it.

Yeah.

I think that this is where I think, I really believe this. I think then, like, the reason, you know, it's so easy for parents to all of us to like, go crazy on how something is so important, you know, is I think we work backwards from the wrong end, which is like, well, we want the right end if we want our kids to have, like, good lives when they're grown ups.

Cool.

I think we've all decided, or many people have decided that, like, that means having A good high paying job, that's what means you're happy as a grown up. Well then in order to have that, you have to go to a great college or one of these specific places. In order to have that, you have to do this in high school and you need to be perfect in all these dimensions. And I think that it's actually the wrong implication at the end, which we do want our kids to be happy. But what I think goes into being happy is sort of the belief you can solve your own problems, right? Or you can solve them with a team, or that you can get out of something, or that you're resilient or whatever it might be. And so I think the working backwards from that. You actually do very different things for your kid. If you believe you're trying to teach them that like, hey, you're going to be fine, you, you have the ability to get yourself out of this along with other people versus like, no, what it means is you have to go to this school, then go to this school and then get this job. And so like when I hear you talk about your dad, I, the fact that he taught you like, well, listen, if you have your morals, you're good. Well, having your morals is in your control. It's not something that's dependent on what you did 30 years ago. It's dependent on what you do today. I think that's like an amazing lesson because you can keep applying it. It's not, it's not contingent on something you did 30 years ago or not. You know, totally.

There's a, there's a professor at Cal named Allison Gopnik that, that wrote a book called the Gardener and the Carpenter. And, and it's basically the two metaphors for parenting. Like, are you, are you a carpenter? That's like bending and shaping the wood and polishing it and getting it to be just right. Or, or are you the gardener? Are you planting a seed and watering it and getting some sun and then who knows what's going to grow out of that plot of land, but you believe in it and you show faith and you know, you have grace when it, you know, isn't quite what you were hoping for, but it's going to be the thing that's going to be great when it's a 40 year old. And like, so we, we do a lot of work talking about we're hoping our parents are going to be gardeners here because that's the way you actually show faith in your kid. Like, that's the most powerful statement of faith. Is to say, I think you've got this. I think you have the tools to figure this particular dilemma out. And it's not that I'm washing my hands of it. I know I've seen this before, but now it's your turn to figure this out. And I suspect all three of you, all four of us, had parents that did that at certain points. It's why the Varsity Blues thing was so heartbreaking. Forget about whether it was cheating or, you know, you got into a school unfairly. The thing that broke my heart was it was fundamentally, it was a bunch of parents saying to their kids, like, I so don't believe in you, that I'm going to juice the system because you're not enough in my eyes unless you go to school X. And like, I just don't. That must be devastating as a child to hear that from your. From the. From the people that matter most to you in the world. So I think we, I think in the short term gain, we sometimes undersell the messaging to our kids that we want to give them, which is, look, I think you've got this. I believe in you. Like, you're powerful.

What you just said, though, than was a huge takeaway for me from the Coach K conversation. Huge, huge, huge, huge one. I was shocked to learn that he's a big gardener. Truly, Like, I just, like, couldn't. And he uses these garden. And Shane, you got to tell us, but use these gardening analogies about, like, don't put a jar around the plant. You know, you won't know what it can become. But then also, what you said of, like, they recreate the team standards every year other than we look each other in the eye and we tell each other the truth. And so, Shane, like, you should tell it. But, like, I, when I look back at that conversation, you expect this carpenter, and he is the, you know, absolute consummate gardener in that. On that team and on that program, which is incredible.

Well, there.

There was some woodworking that went on there. Ravio.

Okay, you tell us, what do we got?

What do we got?

You tell me what it was.

There's a little bit of. A little bit of hammer and saw going on there. But, you know, the great ones know when to. When to saw and when to. When to. When to plant. Right? That. That's. That's the science. Those, Those are the great ones. So, so what's your advice to new parents than on the first day? All right. They come to Menlo. They're expecting, you know, they know the reputation. It's their, it's their baby. They have, you know, I call, I call them champagne dreams. Robbie and I know, know this, this. They got, they have champagne dreams for their, for the young ones. So what, what's, what's your message to a parent who might not want to hear that message? All right, trouble here, you know, but like, you know, for, for us giving us advice.

Yeah, you can give it to us.

Principal has a great line that I love and people remember it forever. And so this is on the first day when parents are first coming to the school. And he'll say, look, to this point, you've been the CEO of your kid's life and your job right now is to get yourself fired as CEO and then rehired as consultant. And I actually think that that metaphorical language is exactly the right language. And it's everything that we've been talking about right now. The greatest coaches are truly coaches. They're not actually CEOs of teams, they're not architects of teams, they're coaches. They're putting you in a position where, when you don't know whether to go left or right or what the right decision is, that your instincts kick in and you do the right thing. You do the thing that makes the group successful and that's what you want as parents. So we talk a lot about, Forget about raising 18 year olds. We're in the business of rating 40 year olds. We want, we want you, we want to set the path in motion that's going to raise great members of society. And so we try to get out of the business of like, look, we don't control. We have no. Into any particular college or university. There's no back door, there's no side door that we have access to that other people don't. And oh, by the way, that's not actually going to be the definition of who you are in the world. But you want to be thinking about who do you want this child to be as a, this 10 year old, to be as a 40 year old? And if you picture that and you really take it seriously as a parent team, the kinds of things that matter to you are, do you have friends that you know like you and are close with you? Do you have a relationship that matters? Are you a happy family, Ravi? Are you like, do you have purpose in your life? Do you have connection with something bigger than yourself in some way, whether that's spiritual or organizational or whatever it is? And when you define the end, the outcome as that, then the pathway forward is actually much more wide. Open than kind of the keyhole that you were describing earlier, Ravi, where it's sort of like, well, to get this, then you got to work backwards and there's only one path and if you're off that path path, it's all over. Right. Like life ends as we know it. And I think that kind of thinking is where we get, where we get a lot of anxious and depressed kids, which we're seeing in our society manifest in big, big ways. So raising 40 year olds is, is the goal and you know, getting yourself fired as CEO and rehired as consultant is the short term objective. Piece of cake.

I think I've already been fired a few times than by my. I got that. I got that part, you know, most of the time than.

I have a question for you on that, which is there's been some recent articles on sort of like a parenting shift in recent years kind of from something that was a little, I'm just going to use the term softer to a little bit harder. Right. And you know, there was this like thing of like, you know, as young, it's like, don't say no to your kids ever. And now a little bit more of like, listen, like there's some consequences and we're gonna try and do a little bit more of that. Do you feel that in the school environment too, in terms of like the community being a little bit more, I don't know, like open to tougher feedback or what have you? Because one of the things about athletics that's so great is tough feedback is part of it. It just happens there is some amount. You talked about your dad like he was tough, but he was fair. And is there more openness to the school and the leaders in the school providing that kind of environment for the kids nowadays?

It's a great question. So we've all just been through the pandemic and I think there was a lot of concern about learning loss in the pandemic and I think that's real in pockets of our country. I actually think the bigger risk was a little bit more silent, which is as parents we were so worried about our kids that we over rotated on our expectations of them. And so there was a lot of sort of like, look, I know it's been hard for you. You don't have to worry about picking up your room or you don't need to worry about contributing to the family or, you know, play some more video games if that's what makes you feel good. And now, and this is every school leader that I talk to it's not just us, but now we're dealing with the consequences of that is we've kind of forgotten how to be in community with each other. We've forgotten this sort of social contract that we have where, you know, we have to actually sacrifice for the, for the larger good of the group. And these kids aren't. They haven't had that experience during some really formative years of their development. And so every school I know has some version of a culture challenge going on. Whether it's language that we thought was gone from our institutions is now kind of come roaring back and reared its ugly head or behavioral stuff or physical confrontation. And like, not to say that our school has become, you know, some kind of a hellscape, but I do think, I do think we're seeing behavior that we didn't see 10 years ago. And I think it's a function of. We just sort of. We forgot that expectations were actually good for our kids.

I like that. Yeah.

And it came from a place of love, it came from a place of worry. And our kids did go through a lot, but I think we over rotated on that piece and I think we're seeing the consequences of it in our society. So the expectations piece is really valuable. We have a small but mighty football team that definitely punches way above its weight on the boys side. And the real value of that team is that we've got a coach that helps young men become adult men. And that's the whole purpose Todd Smith is all about developing kids into men. And that's about sort of taking responsibility and sucking it up. Every kid on our team plays both ways because again, small but mighty. And we play teams that we have no business being on the field with. And we're successful more often than not because they've really bought in. The players have really bought into sacrifice and hardship and resilience. And like, we want this, they hunger for that. And so I think there's a way forward. But I think as parents we need to not be afraid of sort of saying like, actually there's a boundary here or there's an expectation, we're all pulling our weight and you're not. And you need to pick it up a little bit here.

That's awesome. I hadn't thought about tying it back to the pandemic and it makes so much sense when you say it. I think all of us, you know, we, we all believe high expectations are a gift. But to your point, like, it is hard sometimes to, you know, do that because you love this person so Much and you just want them to be happy. But kind of the duration again like the way for the long term happy is to be tough. It's to have the high expectations.

Well, yeah, I mean I doubt that our parents thought that they were ever being too hard on us.

No.

Or like that that was something that kept them up at night. Do you know what I'm saying?

Something that, yeah.

The modern parent I think does contemplate that like am I being too hard on my kid? And I, and I'm very. And again I'm probably over observant to my kids, you know, like short term happiness.

I think Shane's gonna disagree with us though. He looks like he's ready.

Fans said earlier it's more of a discussion. You know, parents are swapping notes much more than you know, my parent. My parents didn't talk to anybody. What, what happened, happened in our household, you know and it was a generational thing. What happens at home, stays at home and you deal, deal with it internally. And so there was no outside external feedback. You know, now with social media and just the, the world that we live in, we're always comparing each other on methods and success stories and so that's the dynamic that is very different for us than it was for our parents.

You're right. Like my, my father, my father didn't even come to all my basketball games. Like he had a life. Like he, you know, he was, I was not the most important thing in our family. And, and so, and, and there were all kinds of messages about like yeah, well, you know, maybe we'll make it if, if our busy lives will allow. But you know, you are not the centerpiece here. And actually looking back on it, like first I didn't resent it because none of my other friend's parents had all their, you know, we're coming to all the games. But the other part is that was really helpful for me to not imagine that I was the most important thing in our family. I was just, I was just part of a group, I was part of a team. So. But can you imagine not going to your kids game now? Like can you imagine the shame that you would suffer the judgment other families.

Like what is wrong?

Are you okay? Are you in the hospital?

Well, yes. Well then it's crazy to think about then the thing that you've said and you said a bunch of things that are like really impacted me. But like I think the thing that's helpful to think about is again that you talk about like the, the kind of the subconscious Signaling that we do, but, like, signaling that, like, you can't do this on your own. Yeah, I think it's like a very powerful. For me, Like, I. I do think about that as like, something pushing back against our instinct to, like, want to help. And, like, Snowplow is like this idea that maybe I'm making my kid think that I don't believe in them. Giving my kid, you know, that confidence, that trust, that faith.

But, dude, also, the other thing is than mentioned the book the Gardener and the Carpenter. There's also the book the Gift of Failure. I think it's Judith Lerner. I'm not sure, but it's an amazing book. And you get it from the title, which is like, think about how many things you learn from small stakes failures as a kid. That's the whole point. There's small stakes. It's okay if you fail there. It's like, whatever. You'll get over it. But the belief, the idea of the kid forgets the shin guards and you're like, oh, don't worry, I'll drive us home and bring it back, versus, like, you're gonna get smoked in the shins today. And, like, it's gonna be fine, you know, but, like, don't forget your shin guards next time.

And to the point, again, like, the signaling. And I was the same way. Like, my. My parents didn't, like, drive me to every single practice. They didn't go to every single one of my games. Like, again, they had life going on. And it, like, subliminally sends the matches, like, a little bit is the. The pack or the family is the most important thing. Right? It's not you, you know I'm saying. And like, you don't then develop, I think, obviously selfish kids. Right? Like, again, the, like, the family unit is number one. It's not you and whatever you have going on in your life.

But, like, well, Alex, you know what's so crazy?

I violated this person.

No, but you know what's so crazy is if you gave me the choice, like, everyone, like, we want our kids to be happy and successful. Actually, even more than that, I want them to not be entitled. Genuinely, like, above being happy and successful. I would choose not entitled. And so the ironic thing of all this is the things that we do that we're like, well, just. We'll just solve it for you. That creates the entitlement that is like, the absolute thing that you're. I believe many of us are trying to avoid above all else. Like, is there anything worse than that of just like, oh no, I deserve for you to go home and get my shin guards from me.

Like, yeah, nothing.

That's the moment where it's like, oh God, what have I done? You know? And so I think that like, I don't know, I try to keep that in mind a lot which is like the highest level goal is like not entitled, you know.

Now fan, you know, you're obviously very wise and you deal with parents and young people every single day. Now did you take your own medicine as a father? Did you, did you fail? Did, did, did you, did you have an awareness of, of. Okay, I, I know what I'm talking about here. You know, guys like this, this ain't my first rodeo. Or, or did you, did you fail? Like we all fail in, in, in that task with our, with our own children.

Shane I found so three daughters. I found three brilliant ways not to parent. I was a spectacular failure as a parent in so many ways and, and it was very humbling. Like I, I think you all can relate. Parenting is the most humbling thing I've ever done in my life, but bar none. And, and actually for, for one of our daughters a really hard high school years I crashed and burned and overwhelmed by depression and anxiety and had to withdraw from the school and like just a lot of stuff and, and I was the head of the school and I was worried. My, my wife and I talk openly about this. It was a decision that we made early on that we weren't going to like pretend that it was all fine and in part because we knew that other families were dealing with this and it would be helpful potentially to just be out there with whatever's going on with our family, not leading with it, but if people asked we were going to be honest. And it was very, at the beginning I was very worried that people would sort of say like okay, so people in glass houses and here you are dispensing all this advice to families and your kid is really struggling and she by the way, is a brilliant 25 year old now. Incredible resilience wise beyond her years. Just got married last summer to a terrific guy. Her life is brilliant and she has clarity of purpose that is unreal. It certainly was well beyond where I was when I was 25, but at 16 she was really struggling and nothing like being knocked to your knees that way and, and having to sort of really recoup and be humble about. I got a lot to learn here about how to support a kid and listen to her really carefully about the messages that my wife and I had been giving her that were not helping her and actually contributing to some of the anxiety and some of the depression that she was experiencing. So, yeah, Shane, I mean, this parenting thing is the best and hardest job I will ever have.

Yeah, than. I know we've kept you for a while. I have. We traditionally end with a closing question, but I have one before that, if that's okay. So can I end with two closing questions?

Fine with me. It's up to your team.

Well, I think we do a rubby, you know, comes up.

Exactly.

It's kind of our.

You know, you know, leadership and followership and teammateship then. Okay, so typically, our closing question is, who are your glue people?

Right.

The show is called Glue Guys. And so we like to celebrate the people that, you know, keep things together in your life and also are under. Sometimes underappreciated. And then also, I would love if you gave some advice to the parents who are listening to this, because we do have a lot of parents who listen, and I think you have a really unique vantage point. And so we would love to know who are your glue people? And also, what advice do you have for all of us as parents?

So Jane earlier said, I have wisdom. I actually don't think I have a tremendous amount of wisdom. What I have is pattern recognition. Over 33 years of doing this and working with adolescents for 33 years, look, I've shared some of the things that I think are right. There was a really helpful parent along the way that maybe 10 years ago that said something to me. She said, look, and her daughter was a really great athlete and all that kind of stuff. But. And look, our school is rigorous and academically challenging, and that's by design. We want that. Not because it's just hard for the sake of being hard, but it's kind of what we were talking about earlier. High expectations, high support, we think is the formula for growth. And this mom came up to me reflecting kind of in senior year, and she said, look, I'm so grateful for the hardship that my daughter has had in the school because she had it while she was under my roof. And. And what that enabled me to do was to be the one to bake her a, you know, a bunch of chocolate chip cookies and walk it up to her room when she most needed it. And she said, I would have been horrified if her first moment of disappointment or failure was when she got to college or into the workforce. And. And I think we're seeing a lot of this, right? We're seeing this in the Workforce where certainly colleges talk about teacup kids and, and they're kids who've never failed before, who've never been disappointed before, who've never had a setback. And the first one is when you get to be, you know, a freshman in the dorm, like, that's just a recipe for disaster. So, so I think pivoting on this, sort of like it's a failure if your child, you know, disappoints or makes a mistake or doesn't achieve or whatever it is, it's actually a desired outcome. This is, it's not a bug, it's, you know, it's a feature. We want this. Invite it, push for it, encourage it, because then you can be the one that's there to support them through that. And that's how you build resilience. Like, resilience isn't built. We all know this, but it's not built in the easy times, it's built in the rough times. And so you want that. So put your kid in situations, not dangerous ones, but put your kid in situations where they're going to be disappointed, where they'll get cut from the team, stretch and be. And not get what you want. We all had that, that made us better adults. And I'm with you. I think, I wouldn't call it entitlement. What I want for my kid is to have an orientation towards something other than themselves when they get out into the world. And I think our society would be better served if we had more people with that orientation. And I frankly think that's what we need. We need a resurgence of that in our country.

That's pretty great. All right, who are the glue people?

I'm surrounded by glue people. I work in schools. So everybody here has chosen voluntary poverty as a career path. So I'm surrounded by true believers. It's part of the reason that I love my job is I'm surrounded by people who, it's a, it's a faith initiative. Like we invest in 18 year olds and we rarely get to know how it all turns out, but we have faith that they're going to go out and become something bigger. And every once in a while we, we get a glimpse into it or we see somebody that's done something that we're proud of and. But mostly I like, I'm surrounded by math teachers and science teachers and people who would be brilliant, you know, business people, but they've decided to do this with their life. And I think these are. You call them glue people, I call them weavers. I think these are people that are making society better. And I get to come to work and spend all day with all of them. I just. I feel like it's a great gift. And look, you know, if you look around, it's the old Fred Rogers, you know, look for the helpers piece of advice, like, when stuff gets scary, look around. You'll see the helpers if you're looking for them. And I think they're everywhere in our society. I'm a tremendous optimist. And I think they're all around us. There are coaches, there are teachers, there are people who are raising kids the best that they can. And these are the weavers that are all around us, so we're in good company.