The "Learn Fast" Philosophy Used by Elite Teams - [Glue Guys, EP.45]

I hadn't touched a football my entire rehab because I was actually kind of bitter towards it. And here I am in this military center, and the first thing the military guy did, again, I couldn't stand, was go get a football. It changed everything.

So I went to this, like, super nerdy thing. It was Alex, I told you about it. Which was the acquired podcast, did a live show at Chase Center. Okay. Which is funny. Like, I mean, there was 8, 000 people there. No way. 8, 000 people, Shane. 8, 000 people. Now, I think, to be fair, like, those guys are amazing and, you know, their show is awesome. But I mean, I think the reason there were 8, 000 people there was. They had Mark Zuckerberg as, you know, their guest, even still, like, you know, attending a live session of a podcast. It's like, you know, different. But, dude, Mark Zuckerberg was, he was, he was very good. Okay? He was very, very, very good. But he said a couple things that actually made me think. I went with, with Mike D. Okay. And Shane, you'll appreciate this. I did lean over to him, be like, you know, I, I, I. So I told him he's got to come on the podcast, and he's, he's ready to go too. So he's going to.

Mike D. Has interest outside of basketball.

No, he is the one who invited me to this. You know, surprisingly enough.

Such a valid guy. He's such a, such a valid guy.

Now, Zuckerberg said this thing that was very, very, very interesting. And I'm trying to figure out how it. Well, it applies. And outside of your life, he was, they were sort of like, what is Facebook is a social media company? Or what is Meta's social media company? Like, what is it that makes you guys who you are? And he's like, look, our entire goal is to be a technology company that learns faster than anybody else. That's it. Like what we wanted. We want to learn faster than anybody else, and if we learn faster than everybody else, we will be fine over a long period of time. And it was too, like, you couldn't, like, have the deep conversation. But I asked Mike, I was like, does that work in sports to, like, learn faster than everybody else and to have that be a differentiator? Because, like, the reason I was thinking about it is the feedback loop. In business, like, you can really change a lot quickly, but in sports, like, can you learn something and make changes fast enough in order to actually have it work? Because, like, your personnel is more fixed. There's just like, in business, you can be pretty nimble. And so I was interested in, like, could that approach work outside of a tech company? And so, anyway, that was what I was thinking about.

Yes. And I think that's the only way you have sustained success. You're looking at a perfect example of this. I mean, I literally had the best year in my career and got sent packing. Right. Like, you don't wait. You don't. And I mean that. Like, you don't wait for the downfall. Like, look at how often. How many years did the New England Patriots send away an iconic franchise player at the end of their career, right? And they didn't sign them to that last big contract when they're aging. Right. How many times did Bill Belichick draft a quarterback, think, looking for the, you know, Tom's replacement. And I think the great coaches, like, it just isn't it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're always doing this, and even from a. It's happening on a personnel side, I think. But then even from. From a philosophical standpoint, like Andy Reid, when he evaluates players in the spring. So, like, when he's evaluating the next crop of rookies, and I think in that, too, Ravi, like, in sports, you obviously always are having, like, the next class come in.

Yep.

Right.

Like, there's, like, a more natural evolution.

It's kind of built into the process. Like, you're always hiring every year, you know.

Yeah.

And so. And if they're better and cheaper, like, you know, like, they're obviously pushing out the. The older, more expensive, you know, counterpart. But philosophically, you know, Andy, when he. He. He watches these players and he's evaluating them, this is in the springtime. So this is like, combine. You know, the NFL super bowl has already happened, and it's prior to the draft, and so he's evaluating all the position groups. And while he's doing that, he literally, in his office, one. One entire wall is just whiteboard. It's, you know, it's a big office. He overlooks the practice fields. Like, it's, you know, as it should be, a big, big giant head coach's office. So one whole wall is just whiteboard. And all he does. It's. It's crazy. Like, so when he's evaluating QBs or running backs, when he sees a cool concept, he puts it on the board.

What do you mean, a cool concept?

So, like, just an offensive philosophy, right? Because, like, he's watching. He could be watching one one double A teams, right. Division two teams. Right.

Like, like these Are players. Yeah.

Not just. No, he's not watching. These are college guys and. And a lot of them obscure college. Right. You're not just watching the SEC in the Big Ten. And so he'd be watching and, hey, North Carolina, North Dakota State. I mean, I literally remember this, like we took place from, I think North Dakota State. Like, he'd be watching, like, hey, they run this really cool. They run these three plays out of this formation that are all really cool, and they tie into each other.

Well, I think football lends itself way more to innovation than basketball does. I would say. No, Robbie, not in basketball. In basketball, it's not about learning the fastest because the game evolves very slowly. It evolves, but it evolves very slowly. So, like, you know, Alex, you know better than I do, but, like, remember when teams couldn't stop the Wildcat?

Yeah.

You know, like, how novel was to put a running back at quarterback and you hand the ball to him and he runs and he gashes you for six yards every single time. Right. And so, like, you had to learn really fast. Either, like, how do we stop this? Or hey, we need to really fast. We need to put this in our playbook. You know, you think about, like, the rise of the Tampa 2. Okay, like, when Tampa was doing it with Tony Dungy's defense, like, no one could solve it. Like, it was a revolutionary defense. So, like, everyone rushed to either solve the Tampa 2 or adopt the Tampa 2.

Can you guys give. Can you guys give like the. The quick overview of the Tampa too? I'm going to speak on behalf of the listeners here, you know, who might not. Might not be as versed in the Tampa 2.

Well, yeah, well, it derived and believe it or not, Tampa Bay and Money Kiffin was the originator. This is Lane Kiffin's dad, Hall of Fame defensive coordinator. And yeah, it was a. It was kind of a game changing defense in a sense that it. They kind of broke the mold, you know, that it was this new form. It was cover two that really is form of COVID three. But like, not to dive into the minutiae, but yeah. And in some ways there's probably like a cyclical nature to some of these changes. But like, you know, we've seen RPO be kind of becomes in fad and then that spreads, right? And I think maybe the point is here is if you're on the leading edge of that, you're ahead of it. But if you're on the back end, right, like, you. You're on the cusp of like the decline of these things. Right. Because then the next wave is already coming. Yeah.

Like the teams that don't run motion now and don't run, you know, three receiver sets and don't spread people out, you know, are just, are always at the bottom of the league and offense. Right. So it's not a secret that like the best imitate and they're, they're copying the Shanahans and the McDaniels and the best office of bias.

Right? I mean, how about every company just sticking AI on the back of their.

Name because it's like the hot topic.

Like I mean Callaway stuck AI on the back of their name. Like you're a golf company.

I saw a toothbrush, a toothbrush the other day that said it had AI in it and it's like, well what, you know, one of the things that we're doing right now at Sequoia is one of our partners, partners had this good line which is like if this company didn't say AI anywhere in it, would we have any interest in this company whatsoever? And it's like a good thought exercise of like, let's not just like fall privy to that. I do think though, Shane, on your point of like, so Alex is like learning fast, learning quicker. Huge deal in basketball. You said not. Why do you think it's not in basketball? Is it because it's more individual? Is it because it's a smaller team? What is it that makes it not as susceptible to like learning faster?

Yeah, the salary cap. You have a lot of sunk costs in basketball that you don't have in football. You know, honestly, like with, with football you could turn over your roster pretty quickly, adapt an entirely new strategy. Like we, we don't want, we don't want run stopping linebackers. We're going to cut them all or get rid of them and bring in, you know, pass defending linebackers. Right? Because you can, in basketball you have guys that have, you know, through 200 million dollar contracts and okay, we're gonna go to a low post offense now if you don't have the personnel, it's, it's a slow, it's a slow burn. All right, Even from like a, like a game style play. If you look at like at the rise of the three point shot, which is like by every metric, like if you don't make threes, you don't win. How long it took for every team to be like, yeah, we probably should shoot more threes. Right? And even then there's like a limit to where coaches and players even feel Comfortable when actually the right answers, you shoot a three point shot every single time you can. That's the rigorous answer that is unrefutable. Right? And so innovation is much, much slower in basketball now. People will take concepts, but like in a playoff series, you know, look, you play a team in a seven game series, like, what worked in game one is done. The rest of the series done.

It's done.

Okay? We're not going to play it this way. We're taking this play out, play out of the game. You got to score somewhere else, right? So by Game 7, like in a long series, like, there are no secrets. Everything's changed. And so, yes, you have to learn, but like assume everything is getting taken away.

But don't, I mean, maybe not year to year, but don't you think like, even the three point shooting phenomenon, the small bowl, small ball, the whole like wide open west coast, like, let's just get more possessions and put up more shots, right? Like, don't you think these things, these things have changed basketball over the years?

They have.

It's not year to year, but how.

Did it come to be. How did the Miami Heat get to small ball? Shane Battiers is the starting power forward. Chris Bosh had got hurt and they had no backup power forward. Wasn't like Eric Spoels were sitting up on it being like, I had this great innovation in basketball. It's going to change the way that we play modern basketball. I really want to put baddie at the fort. No, he said, oh, we don't have a backup four. Shane, you used to play power forward. Can you play power forward? I said, yeah, coach, I'm in. And we win two championships, right? You know, David Lee for the Golden State warriors, you know, was the starting center. Draymond couldn't see the floor.

Couldn't see the floor.

David Lee goes down. Steve Kerr's like, oh, what do I do, Draymond, go play center. And like a dynasty is born, right? So like, don't let's, let's not over. Let's not give too much credit to people for doing game changing things when it comes out of necessity. And like, oh, what do we do next? Right?

Yeah, but that doesn't, that doesn't take away the, the premise that it did take over the league. Right? Like, and my.

That's different what Zuckerberg's talking about though, don't you think?

No, well, they're more intentional about it. My point is though, you're. Do you really think that. Okay, the winning. You just said It. The winning formula in the NBA right now is put up a three, right? Three, three, three, three, three. You've talked about, like, the, you know, the mid range is the worst percentage shot. Do you actually think that that's going to be the same winning formula 10 years from now?

It will depend. It will depend on the evolution of the players. See, in basketball, like, it's a little bit different too, because now you have these unicorns that are changing the game in a different way. Not out of innovation, just because there are seven four people walking around on.

Well, why is it that sports innovation. That is innovation.

I mean, that's not like Adam Silver and saying, hey, let's. Let's find these seven four guys that can move and shoot threes and let's. Let's put them in the league. No, it's just an evolution of just like, people are exposed to basketball and they grow these crazy skill sets and they're freaks. Literally, like one in a billion type people. And they're all in the NBA now. And so I wouldn't say. I think that's different than what Zuckerberg's talking about, where Zuckerberg is actively looking for ways to disrupt technology. Use technology to disrupt.

Do you. I don't even think he's talking about use. I mean, literally, he's. He's just saying, like, there's these incumbents, these legacy companies that so many of them, right, For a while are. Are. Are on the. The. The up and to the right, right? And then at some point, you know, plateau out and then decline, right? And they have a life cycle. Like, literally, they have a life cycle. And it's, you know, through however many markets and obviously depending on. On changes in technology or whatever, the next 74 guy comes around may take them out, you know, so to speak. But for him, it's. It's to not be blockbuster, right? Like, just keep your head up. You just keep your head up and eyes open. And let's not be ignorant of this stuff. And that when AI Comes around, we better get on this freaking train and not fight it, right? Like, when cloud services come around, then we're blockbuster. We don't just sit on our hands because, like, we're making money, right? Like, that's the point. And so it's. I know it's different in the, in. In basketball in the sense that you are, right? Like it's these physically talented guys, but, like, listen, when Draymond changes the game in a small ball, if you're playing him, dude, we better adjust, right? Like we better either get with the program or, or same thing, like we're going to get rolled over.

But I do think that, I think that the most interesting thing I took from what you said, Shane, was sort of like the structure of the team, limiting the ability to implement the learnings. Right. Like and the idea that you can turn over a football roster in a hurry versus you can't really turn over a basketball roster as quickly. That's pretty interesting, right? Because it's like how quickly can you implement your learnings if you decide that you want to go small ball and you don't have the personnel. Right. Like your ability to turn your team into a small ball team is actually difficult in basketball, whereas it's easier with non guaranteed contracts, whatever in football. I think the thing that I took from Zuck, which I, I totally agree with you, Alex. It's like, listen, like we are going to face, he basically takes a long time horizon of like we are going to be running this company for 20, 30, 40 years. Things are going to change a lot over that 20, 30, 40 year period. And we can implement that any adjustment in a hurry. Right. And so it's fascinating on like structure is what he did was he created a structure where he gets to make the all the decisions. He controls the company. Like he is the founder, he has all of the super voting. And so literally what he said, he's like, in 2006, Yahoo tried to buy Facebook for a billion dollars and he didn't want to sell. He said the entire management team wanted to sell and the entire board wanted him to sell and he didn't want to do it. Okay. So he was able to fight his way out. But he's like, I almost, he's like, the board tried to fire me, you know, in that situation. And he's like. And then the entire management team left within the next year and he was like, I don't want to be in a situation again where I could have that happen and I want to be able to build what we want to build. So he changed all the governance, but effectively what it created was you think about what could limit his ability to make the changes he wants. It would be investor pressure. Because if an investor has shorter term time horizons, like a public market investor, they could say, we don't want you to build this stuff. And now that he makes all the, he has all the decision making authority, what the investors can do is say your stock's going to be worth less. That's what they can say, right? We will pay Less for your stock, but they can't kick him out. And I think that what he created was the ability to make changes that he wanted, but I just thought it was interesting. The other thing he said was, he said, in order to be a real technology company, we need a reasonable portion of our execs to be technologists, like, you know, real technical people, and we need a reasonable portion of our board to be that way. And so, anyway, I just go back, Alex, to like, the, the idea that tech companies and football teams have more in common because their ability to make changes quickly. That was crazy. Like, I, I did not think about that.

Well, like, that makes me even think, because, like, listen, so the, the, the specialized technologists that he's talking about keeping around him, they have a shelf life. Yeah, right. Like, they only have a specific shelf life. And I think that's kind of what I get to like, again with, like, Andy Reid. He's the, he's been the guy that's like, shuttled, you know, these teams for, for 40 years. And he's the only consistent, right? He is the only around consistent.

Yeah.

And it is constantly moving around him. Younger guys, newer guys, fresher guys, like, constantly. And he controls that.

Yeah, right.

And that's what I'm saying. Like, that just is constant. Like, he is. I mean, the guy's traded away how many starting quarterbacks over the years, like, and he doesn't. He's got.

Who else has he traded?

Oh, McNabb and Kevin Cobb and like, you know, he. Me. He just. And that's the nature of it. Right? And if you don't subscribe to that, you'll never stay on that leading edge.

What are constraints to being able to pivot quickly in the tech world and the business world? You know, talking about basketball being, you know, basically the roster construction is the biggest constraint. What, what are, what are some of the constraints that you see? And how are you judging that? Because, look, your business is entirely. Now, like, how. How are you going to pivot? Like, you have a great idea, but, like, it's not, it's not the final prod, the product you're going to, you're going to make here. So, like, what, what are, what are the biggest strengths that you see every single day?

Yeah, the first one that comes to mind is if you have a good business, right, that's like paying the bills and creating all your profits. You think about how your value. Let's just assume you're a public company, you're valued as a multiple of your profits, right? And so usually one big problem that people have is like, gosh, how do I, my legacy business is what creates all the value for my company. Right. And if I, if I stop doing that or I start like taking good resources or people away from that, my company's going to be worth a lot less as I make the change. So first thing is, people are trying. One constraint is sort of like one constraint some people use is, well, I don't really want to disrupt the market cap of the company. That is a deathly constraint. Right. Because all of a sudden you limit your ability to make any change that hurts the profitability of like the legacy enterprise. So that's one that really hurts people. The second is actually quite human, which is that like people have egos around something they've said in the past. Well, on this last earnings call, I said we were okay. Right now I have to go and say something different. It's actually quite hard for people to like walk back points of view where one of the most powerful things that I don't remember who said it, but some like big time tech leaders, like when the facts change, my opinion changes and just kind of being somebody who's willing to change is a huge advantage. Like that's another thing. The third constraint is, you know, people have loyalty to people. Like I, I, I was just thinking about what Alex just said about trading these quarterbacks and presumably there's a good relationship with the head coach and the quarterback, right? Yes. It's hard to look somebody in the face and trade them. It's hard to look somebody in the face you've worked with for a long time and fire them.

Yep. It's rare, right?

And it, and it's super rare. And I think that Andy Reid is an amazing example of like, you still like him and respect him and trust him and believe in him despite him trading you. It's like a really hard human thing to do. Right. And I think that to his credit, he's managed to maintain this relationship with you. But I think leadership wise, Shane, a lot of these folks, like, these are folks that got them there and they've ridden together with, you know, and it's almost like this nostalgia is important. And then I guess the last thing I would say is I think people underestimate how quickly the change is happening. What they want to do is they want to make the change without the pain. And usually you got to take some pain, you know what I'm saying? They're like, oh yeah, cool, go. No, we're going to keep our Legacy business. It's a little bit like, you know, these teams that'll be like, oh, we have the two track system, we have our current team and we're going to be good. And then we're up, we're rising up this other guy and he's just, it's going to work perfectly and we're going to transition. And it's like, that ain't how it works. But this companies do the same thing, which is like, we're going to have a bridge. And it's like, no, dude, there ain't no bridge. You got to jump from one cliff to the other. And you have to. You almost have to end it early. One of the more interesting things I've ever heard was that the warriors, the Warriors 22 championship that they got, you know what I'm saying? Like, there were people that would have traded Steph the most. Like, tough people would have traded Steph probably after like the. Was it the 19 championship or 18, when he still had like many years left. And they would have given up the 22 championship in order to, like, have a chance for more in the future. But Alex, you were going to say something?

No, no, I was going to say, like, the business example of this that, that like, for sure comes to mind for me is Dan Rose, like, buddy of mine who worked at Amazon and his story at Amazon is literally, this is early days Amazon. And like, they're the only product that is, like profitable is selling books.

Oh, by the way, Alex, we should get Dan Rose as a guest. He should definitely. Come on. He would be great.

Yeah, it's just books.

Yeah.

Like Shane. So that like, the only thing they're doing that, that makes any money is selling books. But obviously Bezos has had this idea from the beginning that it's going to be, you know, everything. And so here's their number one. Like, to, to Ravi's point, like, this is the only thing that could have a multiple because nothing else does. And yet he puts Dan Rose down this track and puts him in charge of like, go build the Kindle, right? Nobody's made an E reader to this point that's worth a shit. But they think that this is the future of reading and that paper books are dying. He has to go build this. So you're building a product that is going to kill your number one revenue item. Like, literally, like, so you're, to Robbie's point of like ending it early, like, and being intentional, like, hey, we're going to put all this money and manpower down this effort to Invent the very thing that's going to eliminate our most profitable, like, line item. You know, like, it just is insane.

To think what, what, what did head of Books think about that? You wonder, you know, when that mandate.

I guess we'll have to ask Dan if he even knew or she.

But I think that's such a good example, which is like, you know, and Clay Christensen wrote, I mean, literally wrote a book on this, the Innovator's Dilemma. And he just. It's what you just described as, like, this is the classic issue that a company has. And the thing that Bezos said that was so smart. And this is what great CEOs say. They're effectively have this point of view of we're going to get disrupted, it's going to happen. The only question is whether we do it to ourselves or whether someone else does it. But, like, they, they describe the inevitability of, like, we can't stop the reality of what's going to happen in the world, but we can either be the ones to bring it in or we can be the ones to be impacted by it. And I think that that mindset is like, so critical and valuable and important. It's very.

Don't you think that's what set Zuckerberg apart, right? I mean, like, Facebook, like, again, to go back to the arc of Facebook, like, it's. But he's pivoted, right? Like, and he took a. When he bought Instagram and he bought WhatsApp and they've like, continue, obviously now they're going down the AI path and he's taken all these risks that I think, you know, a lot of MBAs would, would have said. Or, you know, or classic CFOs would have said. It's crazy, right? Like, why aren't we maximizing profit from this thing? And it's the only things. And they're still around. And even the larger rebranding of Meta, right, Like, that we're not. We're a bigger deal. We're a technology company.

Oh, dude. Like, he went through it yesterday. I mean, you take this. It's. It's nuts. Started the company in 2004, right? First, like, existential set of competitors are Friendster in MySpace way bigger. Everyone's like, you're going to lose to them. Cool. Then Google, who has like, the biggest, like, biggest, baddest company in the space, tries to create Google plus like a social network, right? He goes through, then it comes along. Instagram's going to kill you. Snapchat's going to Kill you, right? Tik Tok's going to kill you. You know, you can just keep going. Apple changing the rules on the way you put ads out, that's going to kill you. You know, AI is going to kill you. He just said, keeps going. But to your point on, like, what makes him so unique is I think this. Like, he's, like, fiercely competitive. He's also, like, not wed to something he said or did in the past. Right? Like, one of the things people say about Facebook is they're. They're, like, willing to implement other people's features. Like, when Snapchat created stories, everybody was using stories. Well, some companies are like, well, we didn't make stories. We got to make our own version. We have to create something else. This dude's like, we'll just make a better version of that ourselves. Like, okay, cool. We just learned in the market that this is what people want. Yeah. We didn't create it. We'll create a better version. Sometimes you ask about constraints, Shane. I think that he probably took a bunch of questions in all hands of like, aren't we just, like, copying what the other guy did? And he's like, yeah, we learned that's what users want, and so we're going to give them a better version. Like, some people's egos get in the way of, like, no, I don't want to build what somebody else built. And like, this dude is. I mean, it's even crazy. Like, in their market, cap went down by 80%. Like, Mark Zuckerberg is 40 years old. He's probably worth, like, a hundred billion dollars. Okay. The idea that he's, like, not, like, on a beach somewhere just hanging out, and instead is, like, grinding while, like, pushing this thing forward is a testament to it in itself. Like, he's just. He's going. He's talking about 20 years from now. He's been doing it for 21 years, and he's still talking about the next 20.

Yeah. It's interesting to think about the, you know, like, the. The pushback on this too. Right? Like, it was his board at one point. Well, now he's a. Now it's public equities. It's these hedge funders that are, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, why aren't you maximizing profits?

Yeah. And then he. I think what he has is the benefit. And this is, I think, very different. In sports. He has the benefit of duration, right? Like, he can say, I'm thinking about this for longer than three months, than six months, than 12 months, I'm thinking about it for 10 years. And because he controls the company and because he's earned it, he gets to take a much longer view, you know, but like, if you have to show a result in three months, right, it's actually pretty hard to make like pretty significant changes too. Right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Because you're like, dude, like, what am I going to do my legacy product? Like, I mean, you know, how far.

Was your vision at Instacart? You know, I mean, yeah, you were, you faced the precipice. So yeah, like what you know now compared to what you knew when you were going through it, man, you're trying to survive.

Yeah. And this is what, it's such an interesting question, Shane, because I, I actually like, I have like really diverging opinions on this. Yeah, I actually think many startups, they use long term as a euphemism to just not actually be desperate and do the work in the short term. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, they use it as an excuse.

To like, how so?

So what I mean by that is like, let's say I'm kind of like, our product's not working right, or our business isn't working and it's like, well, don't worry because in the long term, like, you know, it's all going to work out and it sort of like reduces the urgency of getting stuff done now. So you have to pair like the thing that Zuckerberg does, if you're going to do it, you have to pair like long term ambition with short term urgency. Right. Like you, if you don't have the short term urgency, you're screwed because you will lose. Right. So I think he does that really well. To your point, Shane, I think a bunch of startups also assume that they'll exist in three years and I actually think the default is that they won't. And so I actually think again, you need this like belief that it's like not going to work. It's going to. It's almost this belief of like I have to behave like it's not going to work, but I have to believe it is going to work. You know, like there's like this tension that comes with that. The thing I was thinking about Alex though, for like Andy, does he feel like when he got the Kansas City job or when he got the Eagles job, did he feel like he had time, did he feel like he had trust to like implement a vision over a five or ten year period? Like someone who's had success? Do they believe that they have some rope or does he still believe? It's like year by year he's being evaluated.

Yeah, no, you, I mean, you have a couple years maybe. Like, that's the reality in, in pro football, at least right now. Like, you know, hey signed a, maybe he signed a four year contract or a five year contract. So you probably have two or three maybe, you know, to have like culture change. Like, I mean, mind you, when he took over, you're usually taking over a loser, you know, so there usually is a little bit of leash. But no, it's compartmentalizing. Those two things you exactly talked about, right? Like there is a win now mentality and doing everything we can to have success, like win today. And at the same time, you know, you, yeah, you are evaluating for longer term. And that's probably more of the personnel side, like from a, from a sports standpoint. Right.

Like, we're all bad at long term planning. That, that, that's a, you know, a feature, not a bug of being a human being. It, it is, you know, we, we, we do not understand large numbers. We do not understand long term ramifications. We don't understand compound growth. We don't understand all those. We're very, very poor. And, and it takes a true innovator and someone with huge cojones.

Totally. Yeah.

Do you think you personally, like, this is interesting to me, do you think you personally are bad at long term planning? And it's. Don't be humble, but like, are you really, like, I would have thought you're somebody who like, is. I think I'm good at long term planning.

Look, man playing God laughs. Right? That's my, that's my philosophy, man. Man playing God laughs. Right. And a good buddy of mine, Jason Aquino, who I, who I'm an advisor for.

Oh yeah, Holand won at the Commissioner's cup last year. We know Jason.

Exactly. And Jason, you know, he cut his teeth working in the Department of Defense and his sole job was to look at, you know, the nuclear capabilities of Russia 30 years from now. You know, and so you're talking about taking a world view and so discussing things with him like he wants to get into business. And so, you know what, how we had this conversation, Ravi, with Jason, like, I remember what type of people in business have a, a really, really long term. Yeah. U.S. governments have a long term view on the world. But like how many businesses, how many people have an investing, a business mindset besides Zuck, you know, longer than three, four years maybe. Yeah, right. To really, to really gain macro, macro, macro advantages of changing landscapes in ten years from now.

Yeah, it's interesting because I was actually thinking more on the personal side, the business side. I basically agree with you on the personal side. I was thinking about it is like, I think there's lots of people say this, but I think I definitely remember Fiji saying it. As Instacart CEO of like, stubborn on the vision, flexible on the details. Right, right. Of like, you know, stubborn on what it's got to be in the long term, but flexible on how you implement it. I was thinking about that. The reason I was thinking about the long term side and you being good at it was like, I feel like you have some vision for what you want your family life to be like in 20 years. Like, you want your kids to love you guys and be productive adults and you want you and Heidi to have a good marriage. And I do feel like you're like, doing stuff to promote that. I think we're all hopefully trying to do stuff to promote that on the professional side. I totally agree with you. It's like very, very, very hard to like, have that, you know, like, how do you predict what's going to happen in 20 years?

You know, Robbie and I run a podcast, Richard Deach's podcast, this morning, and we got that question, what, what is the ultimate goal of blue guys? And I'm like, man, I don't know. Hope we film next week. And you know, but my answer, Alex, was, you know, my, you know, what's your ultimate goal and what do you want to do? And I said, you know, eventually, we're, I hope we're so successful that we create, you know, Glue Guy Islands, like, kind of like Richard Branson's Branson Island. And we, we have, we host these multimillionaire CEOs to retreats that want to learn from us on how to be the common. The common Glue Guy or Glue Gal. And we change the world through, through our conferences. But I said, no, Richard, we just want to, you know, be able to figure out the Riverside for next week.

But don't, don't you think, okay, on that exact note, I mean, clearly, here we are now. Like, don't you think we should be having both conversations?

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, let's do it.

What would we.

People listening, not us.

Don't you think we're missing the ball if we're not?

Okay, so, Alex, here's a question for you, okay? Take it back to the rehab for real. Again.

This is a great, great, great example Right.

Like, yeah, okay. You're in the hospital, you decide you want to keep your leg.

And I decided to document it too. All at the same time.

Yeah.

Which is, like, important to know. Great fucking cameras documenting this. And I'm laying in a wheelchair.

Yes.

I'm sorry, In a hospital bed. Yeah.

Okay, so this is, to me, like, perfect. One of like, okay, is the point there I need to, you know, play football again, and that's my long term vision. Or is the point they're like, dude, no, I need to fucking be able to, like, you know, move my leg tomorrow one more inch.

Like, I'm so glad you brought this up because actually, it's a great. It's a great example. And I say this. I like, when people ask me about my leg all the time, this is what I talk about. So. No, there's like stages to all this. Right. Like, I was in a hospital bed. They were like, most of the doctors in the room said I should cut my leg off. Except for the Indian reality. Except for the, you know. Yep. Shout out to Vinnie.

Shout out. Oh, yeah, Vinnie.

Yeah.

So. So I decided to keep my leg and I'm going down this road. And again, important to note, like, I documented, like, I'm a very private person. I feel like I always had. I have been, especially when I was playing. Like, you know, you lead such a public life. Like, I. I liked having my privacy, so it was definitely out of character for me and alarming, you know, and again, it looked like it was going to be so bad, like, the outcomes. And so I'm heading down this road. I don't know. And I've talked about it like a pity party for a long time. Like, I'm wallowing. I'm not thinking, you know, my life's over as I know it. And then I talked about, like, the chance I got to go down to the cfi, the center for the Intrepid, the mill. This is the military rehab place. And. And again, it was just. Just changed my life. Changed my life. Right? And like, people like, we're actually moving forward. And that is the first place I said out loud. This was like, it's like five months after my. My break again. And I'm. I. I still can't even stand on my leg. I cannot put my leg down on the ground. I have a metal ca. A steel cage keeping it together. And I say out loud that I want to play football again. Professional football. It's insane. And I'm positive that if I did not say that out loud with A camera capturing it. I never would have done it.

Oh, that's interesting.

I never would have done it. That's like without a doubt. If I did not verbalize it and, and that it was documented and I said it in front of a bunch of people like, this is what I want to go do now. I've told you guys, like I didn't actually think I would ever even get there. Like I thought like it wasn't in the card for me. That's besides the point. The fact that I said it and put it out there and it was a goal, a very long term goal, right? Years. I knew it then. Years. If it was going to ever happen, it was going to be years away. Was so important in the process. And I think it is for goal setting and like things now. I also think it was very important that I was okay with failure. Like I talked about that.

Like, can we like, can we like go deeper into the. Like, why does it matter that you say it? Why does it matter that other people hear it? Like, is it all good things? Is that all?

Yeah, like, no, for sure matter. Like, you know, it actually only mattered to me that I said it and that like what? Like it was sitting there and I would put it like on a back burner, so to speak. Yeah, like it was sitting there, back burner. Like I'm. This is what I'm gonna go do. I, I want to go do this. This is the goal, this is the why. Right? And I say this all the time. I didn't. That next day I didn't wake up thinking about playing quarterback. That's fucking stupid. I couldn't even stand. Like, no. So my daily focus though were on very attainable little things.

Yeah.

Like very small little goals. Like I gotta be able to stand on my leg, right? Like I gotta be able to put my foot down. And I did everything in my power to get strong enough to do that. And then when I did that, right, like it was, it was all a what's next Mentality. Right? So I did it for sure. A little, little celebration. Woohoo. And then, okay, well what's next? Now I gotta take a baby step. I gotta be able to shift my weight. Right? Like that. And then I worked my ass off for weeks on that next step. And then when I did that, like, so again, the big goal, the long term aspirations of glue guys was out there, right? Like I get it was on the wall. I wrote it on the whiteboard. It was out there. But my daily focus wasn't on that. Yeah, Again, like on, on the whole, like, I love the whole idea of being stubborn on your, you know, your, your long term goals, but like flexible in the short term. Like then I get, I did everything in my power on that next step. And I love like the whole, the old analogy of like, you know, when you're in the middle of the deep, dark woods, like, you don't necessarily have to be able to see out of the woods, you just need to be able to see your next step. Right. And then like, that's how you should be living anyway. Right. Like, to Shane, you always talk about the inputs, right? Like, that's what was important. So I didn't, I wasn't focused daily on these, these long term external things. It was, it was the small things. But I think the two, I had to have both. Like, it wouldn't happened without either of them.

The, the thing that you said in there, which I liked, was the, like, it's not that you said it for other people, is that you said it for you. It's like, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's. No, it's for me. Right. And I think that's. Is that like a self respect thing? Like, what is it that, like, why does it matter so much that you said it? Because like, I, I actually feel this sometimes. Like, you actually, like, sometimes you avoid saying something that you want because you don't want to be accountable for it yourself. Right. And so I'm actually like super interested in that. Of like, well, what the hell? Yeah. Like, why did it matter so much that you said it, you know?

Yeah. Because you're putting yourself out there.

Yeah.

Right. Like, it's even like launching this podcast. Right? Like, sure. Oh, it launches. It's like, it's scary. What if it fails? Right? Like, what if my friends see me fail?

Totally.

What am I gonna say?

Totally.

You know, like, that's where the anxiety comes from. Like that, like we don't. So all of a sudden I had said this, people knew that I was trying for this. What if I fail? Right? Like, that's really where all this anxiety comes from. And so I think, important though, that when I did say it. Yeah, like, to me, like, I, I put this out there. This is a goal of mine. Like, I, There is a bar that I'm gonna hold myself accountable to. But that's oftentimes the fear that we don't talk about these things so that it's so easy just to like slip away. Right? Like, oh, if it's not going well. I'll just sink away and like something else, you know.

One of my favorite books I try to read every year, the Power of Persuasion, Robert Cialdini. This was like the original marketing book and, and, and understanding, you know, human behavioral psychology. And it's, it's, it's the consistency principle, all right? We as humans all, all want to be consistent with what we say, you know, and that's why every marketer, they get you on the phone, hit you up, hey, do you have a minute to, to talk? And if you say yes, they got you, they got you. Right? So never say yes. If you have a minute, never say yes. Because you've just like yourself, you put it out to the world that, yes, I do have a minute. I can't hang up because I've already said I have a minute. And people will actually take on pain and stress just to be consistent with their words. So, like, it's a super powerful tool. You know, when other people have heard you document. Yes, I commit to this. And, you know, so if you're ever trying to get your, your, your kids to do something or get your wife to do something way in the future, just get them to say yes, all right? They're gonna have a hard, hard, hard time saying no when the time comes. It's the old, it's the oldest psychology trick by marketers in the book.

That's interesting. Yeah, he's doing it for himself. He's using it on.

Yeah.

So you can use it for good. Use it for good. That was brilliant. You were your own accountability buddy.

I think the failure thing is also interesting. I have it, everyone has it. But it is this, this big lesson too, of just like reminding yourself that, like, maybe yours was different. Alex. I don't know. But in general, like, nobody cares if you fail. And we all think everybody cares.

Totally.

Like, you know, it's like the, the one of my friends you say, like, the only person who cares what you're doing at 12 o' clock on a Tuesday is you. No, nobody else cares. There is no like, you know, overwhelming narrative, any of this stuff. Right. But we all, like, work ourselves into a frenzy on it. And so, but going back, I do think that, yeah, like, there is this concept in business of this, you know, I don't like the analog, the acronym, but it's like a bhag, the Big Hairy Audacious Goal. But like, you have to have something that you're shooting for, I think. Shane, my view just to going back to your question on, like, you Know for me, how I think about it. I think you have to believe the race is worth running, and you have to communicate what it is that happens if you win. But I do think then you have to, like, you know, really be step by step and ferocious in there. That. You know, the funny thing? I don't.

I think your favorite thing Roberta says, you got to know the game you're playing.

Hell, yeah. And you got to keep the main thing. The main thing. You got to, like, you know, do that. But I think that, you know, Bezos, look, to be fair, this company, I think, is losing to SpaceX, or it is losing to SpaceX. But I always liked the way that Bezos's Blue Origin, his space company, by the way, it's so crazy that we're like, multiple space companies now that were the. The billionaires have. But they have this, like, they're saying is like. Is Latin words for step by step, ferociously. And I think that's, like, the right way. You have to do anything. You have to do it step by step. You have to do it ferociously. Right. And ideally, it has to lead you to something that. A mission that matters, you know?

Totally. I. I think that you're speaking to, like, the motivation of it.

Yeah.

Ravi. And, like, so, again, going back to, like, just to take it back one more time, when you were talking about me, like, that's where, like, it wasn't about football for me. Football was, like, a vehicle to get the rest of my life back, you know? You know, physically. And so it really, like, that's why it was worth the race. Right.

Like, that's.

That was the only reason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, I actually want to, like, be able to run around with my kids.

Yes.

And the only way I can shoot for that is if I set the bar so high that I'm gonna play professional football again.

Yes, exactly. Oh, that's exactly. That's exactly. So, like, the why was that? And then I. I've obviously spoken to you guys about. Well, then. Oh, when it actually, like, I got there.

Yeah.

That's why I was, like, so resistant to, like, whoa, do I even. Do I really want to even.

Yeah, I'm gonna risk. You know, I'm gonna risk the why.

That I. Yeah, like, exactly. I got. I achieved. Achieved it.

Yeah.

And then I'm still gonna follow through. Like, that's what, like, at the end of the road was so hard for me. At the very end was. Was that exact, like, problem. Like, I had gotten it back, but I was still going to follow through with it and risk it again.

That's very unique, Alex. I, I would not have had those aspirations. I would have just been, hey, give me back to get me back to this.

But so, so, Shane. Yes.

You're going to, like, optimize here.

No, And I think there was, like, some psychology in it. Shane. Like, so they do this and I don't even know if I mentioned this story. Like, down, down at the rehab place, the military rehab place, there were a bunch of guys with lower leg injuries. Like I've told you, that's what they specialize in. And so as you're coming back, like, one of the first things is again, just to stand, right? Like, just stand on your leg, like, put, put weight on it. And so, and this is documented. Like, guys will put their. You're standing in the rehab center, right? There's a PT working with you. And it's like, put your leg down. How long can you stand until you can't anymore? Right? Like, I'm talking, like, so guys will stand and be like, it could only. He can only stand, you know, literally 22 seconds on his leg, right? It's that. It's that unbearable. They'll take those military guys and go put them up. They have a digital gun range, a digital one. So these are like real guns, but they don't shoot real bullets. They're lasers. And so they'll go take them up to the gun range. And again, these are like, obviously military guys end up there. They'll. It's a distraction thing. They'll fucking stand for like five minutes. Right?

Oh, wow.

So, and for me, that mechanism was a football. Like, I hadn't touched a football.

Yeah.

My entire rehab, because I was actually kind of bitter towards it. And here I am in this military center, and the first thing the military guy did, again, I couldn't stand, was go get a football.

Yeah.

And he put a football.

This is Johnny, right?

Yeah, Johnny Owens. It's, like, brilliant. Like, I'll never. Like, it was. And from there on out, I did rehab with a football in my hands.

Shane.

And like, I equate it to you and like basketball, like, yeah, you want to get your life back, but, like, you play basketball your whole life. Like, so to go out and like, if you were in that miserable state and then just to go shoot some hoops, like, the mental escape that that provided, you know what I'm saying? Like, like that's what fed that mentality, right? Like, it energized me so much that When I would do rehab with a football in my hands, like, it just, it changed everything. And so I, like, for me, it wasn't planned. It was a little bit out of. It's what drove me every day. Like, it was weird. It was unexplainable.

So how does that, you know, going back to like what Zuckerberg said about having a 20, 40 year plan, how has that changed your calculus, how you think about the future, you know, in your next phase after football? You know, your kids are getting older now. That's. That's what I struggle with. You know, that's why I disagree with Robbie's point that, like, you're really good at long, long term planning. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm. I'm day to day here, you know, I did not think I was doing a podcast four months ago. And here we are, blue guys with, with T shirts on. All right, here we are.

T shirts. So one of us is wearing a polo. That's right.

You're. You violate. You're violating. You violate the T shirt rule every episode.

Alex. He might, maybe this might be an ongoing fine for Badier. It's a little bit of like, he's actually kind of going against the culture.

I'm totally the T shirt culture for all our listeners. We have a strong T shirt culture.

I'm 46 years old, all right? I'm old enough to be your fathers, you know, responsible and, you know.

Well, I want Alex to answer your question. I am going to register my disagreement and I'm going to come back to Shane on your sort of like, you know, you're not long term. I'm going to give my impassioned plea for why that's a dumb analysis, but go ahead, Alex.

No, so, I mean, obviously sports are weird because our careers are so front loaded, right? Every other career is backloaded. Like, you put in the time and you grow and then like your whole earning arc and obviously as you move and ascend up.

Why I'm still in ascension, guys. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Like, we, Shane and I are blockbuster, baby. It's over. You know what I'm saying? Like, we got replaced, you know, and so we're pivoting, right? We got like, what's next? You know, again, speaking of what's next. And yeah, I mean, I've got, I mean, a few different things. Like, you know, we obviously all talked about what family means to us, so I don't want to dive into that, but yeah, I mean, I'm I, I'm a broadcaster. I, I, I work at a unique venture firm and now I'm a podcaster. So know a little bit of it. I've got some, some straws in the drink but like you gotta, at some point you gotta pick one and roll and like what motivates you? And this goes to like obviously Ravi's point which is obviously so important in all this, like what motivates you? You know, it's got to be something hard and interesting and you know.

Yeah, but see this is where, okay, I, I just look and I, I, I don't know what it's like to have the, had the chapter you guys had and then the feeling you have now. Okay, so like I don't know what that's like, but I think that like I actually think that the, the thing that you're both or Shane, you're certainly, I, I disagree with you on this. The only thing you can actually do is like create stimuli in your life that then create, you know, opportunities. So all you have to do is like be in the mix, right? What you learn is if you're in the mix then interesting things happen, right? And so for me, my point of view is like you don't actually need to know what it is 10 or 20 years from now, right? What you do have to do is be active and hardworking and learning oriented. This is why like I literally wrote this thing like a few months ago called Getting better at Getting better. And the entire fucking purpose of it is like the only thing you can really do is like get good at getting better, right? If you're not fast at learning something, get faster at learning. And if you're, and what you want to do is like improve more quickly, you know. And so for me the thing that I say is like, I don't know what your guys next chips will be. I do know that you have to decide to play in the game, which you guys are, and then be open minded to stuff like you were on this stupid podcast. But the point of like you no, I'll try it. Let's see what happens. Let's see what adventures come.

That's the whole point that requires little, very little ego.

Yes.

And I think that goes back to even like the Zuckerberg thing. Like you have to check your ego. Facebook is my baby, but it's, I gotta be able to move on from it. And so Steve Young always told me this like, and this is what I think people also makes Shane and I's like career arcs unique, that if you chose. So as Shane and I have to both move on from our sports. Right. Like, I'm not coaching professionally. I'm not a GM professionally.

Yes.

Like, I've. I've decided to. To go down a different avenue.

Yes.

That you are talking about, like, I. 25 to 30 years of experience at the highest level.

Yeah.

And. And building that up.

Yeah.

And that has a value, like, potentially a lot of value. And I. You're just deciding to. To just throw it away.

Yeah.

Like, because it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily, especially that technical information doesn't have any really carry over to much else. And so you have to check your ego. And Steve Young would always talk about this. Like, you go, I mean, you are now the dumbest guy in the room. You went from being potentially the smartest guy in the room. Like, you're the dumbest guy. You don't know anything. And you have to humble yourself to do that. And I think to even have a mindset, a curious mindset of getting better at getting better, but like, requires that. And so you have to check your ego. You have to humble yourself. And a lot of. I don't think some people, it's. Again, it's. It's hard to do.

Also, dude, here's the thing. This is the inevitability of it. If you didn't do that. Now, let's say you guys both stayed in your respective sports. One, you'd be bored. Both of you with your personalities, you'd both be bored. But the other thing that will happen is when you're 60 or whatever the age is, when you'd leave it, you'd be in the same situation that you were in a couple of years ago. Like, man, what do I do now? And so the thing that happens when you, like, get out of it sooner, in my opinion, is like, you just have to face those same things. And it's like when you did the interview with Aaron Rodgers the other day and he was like, dude, the real lesson when you get injured is like, the world moves on without you. Right? Like, the game keeps going and you think it stops. It doesn't. That's the life lesson. Like, I have that everybody has that, which is like, dude, like, what am I going to do knowing that the world moves on without me? Right. What am I going to do when these jobs move on without me? Well, what am I going to be about? What am I going to go do? And I think that's the point that you guys have, like, embraced. And I guess I think that like the big thing. It's crazy. I actually think you need this combination. I'm all about these combinations. But you need this combination of like long term confidence, like, I'll figure it out, right? But short term humility of like, you know what, it's okay if I'm the dumbest one in the room, right? But you, in the long term, the only thing you know is like, yeah, I'll figure it out. I'll put myself and if I fail, I fail, but I'll figure it out. I actually think that's like the human combo that's necessary. Shane, have I convinced you that you're long term oriented yet?

Sure, yes. Where can I find your readings for my mom and our wives and all.

Of our subscribers on our email list?

Shane, Our long email list. Where can we read about your, your, your. Your writings, your musings?

Oh, oh, my readings. Oh, man. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know what you thought you were talking.

I'm trying to pub you here.

I love it. I really appreciate it. You know, Alex has been trying to have those be prompts for the episodes.

And I've been very awesome. They are.

KG Blog. You know, if you, if you know my initials rkg and you know that it's a blog, RKG Blog. You can find all of the musings that I have. And you know, it's like crazy. The crazy thing is, is like, I hate writing. And the only reason I wrote was because I was afraid my kids were going to avoid doing hard things, you know, because, like, I just thought that, like, you know, there's like the natural laziness or whatever that some people have, and I certainly have. And I was like, man, if my kids inherit that from me, I will be so ashamed. Because, like, Avni's not like that. And so I was like, I have to demonstrate that I do stuff I don't like. So the only reason I write on the Internet, which like makes me like shudder anyway, is because I wanted to tell them, like, dad hates writing. Dad hates sharing his writing publicly. I don't even like writing memos at Sequoia, right? I was like, but I have to be able to tell them I do stuff I don't like. So which is why I started writing. And now it's like, I only write like once every three months, but at least it's there. And like, it allows me to have some credibility with them to be like, yeah, do the thing you don't like. You know, you, you might be surprised. I think Alex, the Most interesting part of today has been the, like, your just kind of the deeper look at, like, why it mattered that you set the goal, you know, Like, I didn't. I don't think I really knew that. It was more about, like, getting your life to be back. I do think, Shane, that you're. You're thought though it made me think of one funny thing and one not funny thing. The funny thing is there was this guy who was on a. Some hedge fund guy who's like a billionaire, was on like, some, I don't know, some TV show, and he was getting interviewed and he was like, worth a couple billion dollars, and he's still grinding. And the interviewer is like, you know, you're worth $2 billion and you're still working really hard, man. Like, how do you keep going? Like, if I had gotten to be worth, like, $200 million, I would, you know, I would not have kept going. And the hedge fund guy was like, that's why you'll never be worth $2 billion. Like, you know, like. Like a pretty mean response. But I suspect, Shane, that, like, I don't know, I suspect if you had a situation like Alex's, I think it's more of a question of how I'd react. I suspect you'd react more like Alex, you know, just like, set the bar super high, work really hard, go and make it happen, you know, I like to think so.

A Carolina guy would. That's all I'm saying. I think, I think a word that, like, for me, as we've like, kind of obviously talked this out a little bit that, like, comes to mind. And I think in this, that you have to have. And it's easier said than done just because our human nature, though, is like a. Humility is a part of this, right? Like, and I think even being okay to fail, like, you have to humble yourself, right? Like, a little bit. Like, yeah, failure is normal, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you have to. And you can't hold on to your. That, you know, like any of your accomplishments or anything that you've done that tightly. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you got to be able to let them go. And that again, the whole idea of being flexible, moving forward, right, like, and going back to the coaching thing and even the Zuckerberg thing, like, if you're Andy Reid, like, yeah, you've built these things, but they're. They're fleeting. And so if you're not, you have to, like, humble yourself to, like, constantly be Moving right, like, and changing and evolving and grow. And again, like, that curious mindset comes from that.

You have to believe that that's the norm. You have to believe that that's like, what's going to happen. Have you read, have you guys read. I think the author's name is Ryan Holiday.

Have you read like, I love Ryan Holiday.

Ego is the enemy. Do you know him? Yes.

I don't know him, but I read the Daily Stoic. I don't read it daily, unfortunately. I'd like to read it. I would love. My habits suck. It's something to aspire to, but the Daily Stoic. You know who gave me the Daily Stoic?

No.

George.

Really?

Yeah. It's a great gift. George Roberts, phenomenal.

Coming up every time.

But yeah, I love Ryan Holiday. Future guest. He's listening.

Yeah. Ryan, if you're, if you're out there, if you're listening, you are, you'd be extremely welcome on Glue Guys. Shane, have you read his stuff? Clear.

If you're out there too, get Alex a book. Atomic Habits.

I love that book as well. Although I listen to that. Oh, actually I listen to it on audiobook. By the way, is it okay to say you've read a book if you've listened to it on audio?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That counts. That counts. That counts. Especially if you're a former football player. It's fine.

Can you say you've read a book if you've listened to the Founders podcast on it?

No, that doesn't count. That doesn't count. That doesn't. That feels like a pretty straightforward.

Just a shout out to Senra.