The Mercenary Dilemma - [Glue Guys, EP.42]

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Mercenaries could come help him.

What athlete do you most identify with? A single city and therefore like their team?

Yeah.

Right. In all of sports, is it Kobe in. In la? Right.

Like, is it Jeter in New York?

Yes.

You know, is it all of sports.

Most identifies with a single team and city?

We should go through that. But I think then the question though, of course, like you said, is like, what does that mean that somebody stayed with that city and does that mean that they were loyal? Right. And I think then you get to like another question which is like, like loyal versus transactional, you know, and I think that cuts across a bunch of stuff.

Oh, boy.

For sure. Well, it's. And I'm not saying, I mean, he's not like this at all. But it's funny, you know, Russell Westbrook's like bounced around to how many teams the last, you know, eight years and every round of the playoffs, the NBA playoffs, he's playing a former team in the west because I think he's played for like almost the entire west and not that he. I'm not saying that.

No, I get it.

I get it. It's just a different road. But there are certainly these pros that have been, you know, it's a little more mercenary and kind of transactional, and they do bounce from team to team.

And, and then we're talking about specifically good situations, optimal situations. Can you be a mercenary on an average team?

Right.

And can you be transactional on a. On a below average team?

Just.

Just there for the payday.

Right.

And does that change your view of that mercenary?

I have more respect for the mercenary that's chasing championships than the paycheck, if that makes sense. How many guys have we seen sign giant free agent deals on shitty teams that have the cap space and you never really see him again or hear about him in significant moments, you know.

But dude, it's so funny because, like, are you even a mercenary? If you're going after a championship, Is there like a different word that you should use, you know, for somebody who's like ring chasing? I think brother Badier told us that. What did you say you were doing when you went to the Heat because you were going to go to the Heat or the Spurs? What you said? I wasn't ring chasing, but I was doing something else. I feel like you had a distinction.

I was, I was totally ring chasing.

Right.

I'm not above saying I'm, I was chasing a ring. Like, I never won. I never been out of the second round of the playoffs. Like, I played 10 years in the NBA. Why the hell wouldn't I want to chase a ring? I mean, like, I had done everything else. I had made all NBA defense. I, you know, had. Had made really good money. You know, at that point, there was one thing I hadn't done. And so why wouldn't I go to the, the one place I knew it was going to happen, right. In a matter of my last couple years in the NBA. And if I could be part of that and be one of the reasons why, like, that's, that's only additive. So like, I was a complete mercenary, you know, and, you know, it wasn't altruistic. I wasn't like, oh, the city of Miami just needs a champion. The city of Miami need just a good guy glue guy. Just, you know, rally the troops and start the baddie. A take charge foundation. And that's right, you know, if we win a championship, you know, that's, that's just a cherry on the, on the ice cream. No, I, I went to Miami to win. All right? But again, I've, I've never been dinged for that. No one's ever said, oh, is, is super selfish for going to win a championship. But like that's what I did and I, I, I don't really apologize for it because it works out and now I get to go and fly around the world and tell people why the, the heater grade and my Pat Riley is great and sports is great and, and, and it created an entire second industry second.

I was just about to say that like you know the Badier industrial complex, you know of I've won at every level. It only works you know if you went and won in the NBA, right. And so I think that you know, maybe brother Badier was playing 4D chess here which is like yeah, I'd like to win a ring but what I really want is a long term career where I'm labeled as like capital W winner, you know, dude.

And not only did he hit it, he got two of them. It's easy to be a one trick pony, right. And to do it one time, it's hard to, it's hard Shane to have done it at multiple levels and not many people can say that and no and so do you're to go back like listen, you became a free agent and I think it would only be in the competitor I think that we hope to see in all of us is like yeah, as you're like weighing your options and I've got 3, 4, 5 options of course hopefully if they're on the same ballpark, you're going to pick the place that has the best chance of success and for you to fit in into that success and clearly you made the right decision. But I mean there are, there are tales of this that, that haven't worked out that well. Right. Like Charles Barkley famously championships at the end of his career and couldn't get it, you know, couldn't pick the right team and well but I think that.

Okay, so, so listen I think the championship chasing is like an easy one of like if you're gonna play and contribute it pretty easy to defend. Like the reason to play sports is to win. So that's actually I don't think like as tough. I think like the people that chase the money, okay above the winning. I think that's actually more of an interesting thing when you think about it. And like I don't know this person obviously but like the, to me an example always comes to mind is this guy Joe Johnson, right. Who Shane of course you like played with but like that that sons team he was on so many years ago like was kind of on the brink, right. They were so good. Steve Nash, Stoudemire, all these guys and then he left. And I think he went to Atlanta and got this huge contract and then, like, never won anything. Like, went to go be the number one guy, got all the money, and then went from kind of like winning a lot to nothing. And I think it's interesting because, like, he probably cost himself his chances of winning a championship, right? But he set his family up for the rest of their lives with, like, tremendous dollars. I think that's like a. I don't know. Was he right? Was that the right answer?

Well, I guess it depends on how you're. I mean, what, what are you. What are you grading off of, right? Like, what's your.

Yeah, you tell me.

Because on the flip side of that, like, the, the exact opposite example, in my opinion is I don't think for a single year of his career, Tom Brady led, like, the NFL in any salary, right? Like, he was never the highest paid quarterback ever. He is the greatest player and QB of all time. The man has won more championships than any team in the NFL, right, over a 20 year period. And I don't even think he was top three ever. Like, he purposefully took less money to win championships.

Mercenaries could come help him.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, I will tell you. Okay, so you guys both played. Okay, you know, look, as the fan perspective here, you definitely understand when someone goes and takes the money, you definitely understand. You get it, right? But it's so disappointing, right, because sports are romantic.

They're.

They're. You don't want it to be that way. You don't want it to be people living their lives and setting their families up economically. You want them to be like, right? Like, it's for the game, it's for the championship, it's for the fans. It's all these things, right? And so I actually, I can tell you, like, I. Those things when these teams break up, you know, are like, they suck, you know, and, like, you get it. But, like, it is so interesting. Like, I think college basketball is an interesting version of this now. Like, I love, love, love college basketball. I love Duke basketball. I love, love, love it. But it's harder to root for the team now when the guys stay for a year and then bounce than it was when people stayed for four years and you'd watch these people progress. You don't fault anybody for it. But I will say that, like, it's a lot less fun for the fan when there is, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, not the continuity.

Yep. Where does that responsibility fall? Like, like, like, like, who's the Blame for this. Obviously it's, it's capitalism is to blame ultimately. Right. But is, is there like a moral like pejorative to create an atmosphere where the entertainment is in the loyalty and in the journey or, or is, is the, the onus on just like look, we want to win and, and like we all know what happens when you go to the college football playoffs and you know when you go to the final four, like how many millions of dollars that's generated for your school and donations and increased applications and, and, and, and media money and all these things. Is that is like that athletics now, right? Like where does the responsibility fall?

I, I, I think, I mean I know, listen, all of us on here like would try not to be judgmental, but it falls on the, it falls on the player. Patrick Mahomes chose to take a 10 year contract where they spread out his cap. He is not in the top 10 highest paid quarterbacks in the NFL. Right. And he chose to do that. Tom Brady again did it his entire career. Like I do think there's an element of respect for those guys. I know I have an element of respect for Tom Brady that he for 20 years did this. Right. He wasn't a one time thing. Like this is a decision that he made that the goal was higher for him. Like I don't want to just be the highest paid player. I don't want to just make the most money I can make. I want to try to win freaking championships while I'm here. And the crazy thing is you're still making good money. Like what? Like and again, like the difference between making 60 and 45 or 50. Like again it's life changing money. And I, again I don't, no judgment for maxing it out. Yeah.

But so a couple of things on that one. If Brady feels confident he'll play for a long time right there, it's easier to forego some of it versus someone who's like me, NFL. Not for long.

Like he didn't know that at the time. I mean in hindsight it's easy.

Looking back, I'm saying like at least there's a question of like you know, getting yours. I guess my point is I think duration helps you be a little more sanguine about the short term. But the more interesting thing, Alex, I think is like dude, even after doing that for years and years and years with this team, right at the end of it they're like, hey bro, you know, you're not our guy. You know, even after all that. And so the thing that's interesting is when the people do it, even Tom Brady, right? Like, you know the team at some points, like, okay, time's up. And so you have to find. You have to do that for yourself. It's like that loyalty does not extend usually from the team.

For sure it doesn't.

Good point, Robbie.

No, no, no. But like, it's still. He had already. Even when they cut him, the Patriots, that is. I mean, what's the greatest player ever?

And.

And that's what he was after.

No, I agree, but I'm just saying.

He won more championships at that point and then clearly was a fucking mistake. He wins another one, Belichick's fired a few years later, like, you know, I still think it never changed what Tom was like.

No, but I get it. But my point, Alex, is I'm saying if the argument is you should do it like Brady and give it up and go for longer. My only point is what you. What you would probably hope for is that. That the end, they're like, oh, my gosh, thank you so much. We, gosh, we really appreciate everything you've ever done for us. We're going to do this for you. And to your point on capitalism, of which I am the biggest fan that there could be, however, at the end, people are sort of like, well, okay, we've gotten what we need. Goodbye.

Like, yeah, but you're still. I still think, look at the bigger picture. Look at Tom, the rest of his life, whatever he wants to do, even doing TV now, that comes from his decision that he decided to maximize winning championships over his salary. Does that make sense? Right? And so, like, again, even though that blip of like, yeah, the Patriots obviously in ballot check were cutthroat at the end, but again, for him, what he was optimizing for was like, salary was up there, but it wasn't number one, is what I'm saying. And there are certainly these guys, though. That's all they optimize for one point.

And it colors into this conversation and it's argument that I hate. I hate, hate, hate. Maybe because I joined the Miami Heat. It's the homegrown versus the mercenary teams, okay? And somehow that the homegrown New England Patriots championships were purer because Tom Brady never left, you know, not, not. Not to mention all the mercenaries that came in, you know, to help Brady along the way.

Right?

And you know, when people talk about the San Antonio spurs, right, like, somehow their championship and I love the Spurs, I love Popovich, I love Tim Duncan, Tony Parker manage, you know, like Like Hall, I love competing against those guys. Those guys beat us. Like I appreciate, but I appreciate them because they're just champions and they're great. But like their championships don't mean more because they drafted all those guys, right? It means something because they worked hard and it was, it's hard to win championship. But like that's kind of like public's like, yeah, well, you know, it's a little extra special because it's home.

Look at Alex base.

I'm just realizing this is a phenomenal topic with Shane here because basically his team was just all mercenaries. Of course the Miami, he. Miami mercenaries were all the Miami mercenaries. Like they were just there for, you.

Know, because I wanted to go live in a tax free state.

What about you? Donis Udonis? He wasn't a mercenary dude stuck around. He did it, you know, Shane. So, okay, so I think this is super interesting which is like the, Is it pure when it's homegrown? I think that, here's what I can say, no, it's not pure. I do think that if the fans have suffered with the same people for some period of time, maybe it's even sweeter for those fans to celebrate with those people. Right? And so I think there's that. I do think and this is where Alex obviously look, I don't think this is going to surprise you because, but like I, of course I agree with the Brady approach, right? Like I'm trying to make sure I give the other side of it. But of course I agree that. I think the more interesting thing on that is I actually think that transactional is. It's just optimizing for the wrong time frame, right? Which is if you're transactional, if you're searching for highest paid, of course it's going to work in the short term. But the real thing that the people who are not transactional are is they're long term greedy, right? It is actually better for them if you extend it out usually for a long time, right. It is actually better for them to do it the way of like, no, like I'm all about this. I'm all about the winning, I'm all about the team. Because you end up with a better reputation, better relationships, probably more money in the long term. But like the transactional people, and frankly this is in my industry too, right? They're focused on, they think that there is one thing that's going to determine what happens and they're like, I got to get that one thing rather than thinking about their life.

I, I'm Going to push back a little bit on this homegrown thing, though. I do think from. And I like, listen, World championships are freaking world championships. It is insanely hard to do Again, there's only one person at the end that gets the ring and is on the top of the mountain, like, you know, again. But I, I think there is something special to stay on basketball. Like, listen, Nicola Jokic, like, getting him in the second round and developing and what he's become and then going to win a championship. Right? Steph Curry, obviously now one of the greatest players of all time, but, like, fell in the draft. I mean, he wasn't. What was he, the 13th pick. And they developed him in, in this culture and he's changed the game. I mean, Michael Jordan and the Bulls, like, I just think, listen, if, if the Thunder, we're playing the Lakers, like, I'm rooting for the Thunder because they are like a homegrown, like, it's, it's done an organic way.

So you, you all of a sudden has an influx of money from the Alex Smith assistant GM job. Okay. And they have a chance to go out and, you know, get every top position of player in the transfer portal. Okay, Are you kicking that championship out of bed because you got all the top talent or. No, no, no, no. We got, we got this freshman quarterback that, like, we got to develop. And if we win with this guy, like, it's just gonna mean more Bull Loney. A win's a win's a win. And if you're a fan or a fan base, you just want to win. You want the champagne in your eyes, right? Robbie, does Caleb Williams have to win a Super bowl for you to enjoy that Super Bowl a little bit more? No. You will take any Super Bowl.

No.

If the score is 30 every game.

Also, if Alex Smith comes out of retirement and wins a Super bowl just for the last game, that'd be okay with me.

What are you talking about here?

I hear you. Banners are banners. That's right. However, the connection, and I think this is probably what's different, the connection with the fans and not just your local fans. I think the respect from like, nationwide, anybody in the sport is different when it's homegrown. Right?

Yeah, I've.

Great.

Okay, so let me ask you guys both a question on this and then, you know, just as a sports question. Shane. Well, I think I know the answer to this for Alex. But I'll ask you, Shane, what is the fan base that you feel most connected to, meaning, like when they say, oh, my Gosh, when you did this, I remember this. What is that? Do you have a fan base from your career that when they talk to you, it feels like the most like you. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, Duke.

I mean, Duke, obviously.

Yeah. And so. Okay, so, Alex, what about you? What is the fan base that you feel most, like, connected to when they talk to you about, like, something they saw you do?

Are we counting college?

You can count college. You can count.

Yeah. I think the more interesting question here, Shane, like, take Duke out of this, like, as a pro, again, to keep this, like, great. There is a transaction element into this, right? Like, you aren't just playing as an amateur.

Like, I do think it's notable that both of you, though, said college. I agree with you because that does make the point a little bit of, like, the. The connection is unique. Right. When it's not about the money.

Yep. And I think that's probably why. Before you answer, Shane, I'll give you a second to think. The hardest thing about the college sport environment currently is that. That we've lost that. That there is this transaction and it's yearly, It's. It's the turnover that you've lost some of that connection and loyalty that was there that I think made college sports so special. Right. The alumni and the student body and I. I think all being a part of something bigger like that, I think's kind of gone. And that's unfortunate. But I think as a pro, I think it's a more interesting question as.

A pro, like, you know, my first five years in Memphis, for the first five years the Memphis Grizzlies ever existed, right? So it's like you never forget your first kiss, right? I was. I was the city of Memphis's first kiss.

Okay?

So there's a certain romanticism about, like, my time there that when people see me on the street and say, oh, man, like, I. I loved you, and, you know, we were not good. My first couple years, we got swept three years in the playoffs. So, like, we didn't have, like, a body of work, but we were the first kiss, right? If we can all. We can all remember our first kiss, right? And we'll always remember it. No matter. It was sloppy and it was.

Wasn't the best.

We've had better kisses in life, but it was the first one, right? So.

So.

So that is a little bit different than, like, my time in. In. In Miami. And so when I go back to Miami, you know, I'm walking in Publix, and they say, hey, Champ, thanks so much. You know, I, I watched the game with my dad, and I just remember game seven, when you hit six threes. And I just want to say thank you for bringing a championship. Right. So again, like, I played three years in Miami, all right? And, like, in that city, I can, you know, for the most part, you know, people appreciate, like, you're not paying.

For drinks in Miami.

Yeah, I get a lot of free drinks in Miami and that and that. That's cool. And so, but also, championships do that. Championships are forever. And so it doesn't matter, like, what your role is. You're part of a championship team and you're remembered.

Would you choose between Miami and Memphis? Right. Which one do you think you feel most. I understand that it's picking nits, but what do you. Which one do you feel most connected.

To.

With the fans?

Well, it's different. It's. It's two totally different situations.

Can't choose.

Okay. It's like, you know, it's like having kids, man. Like, which one. Which one do you love more? No, you love them both differently in their own way.

What about you, Alex?

Yeah, I struggle with this question. I get. I've actually just got asked this by somebody. And again, just quickly. I played eight years, my first eight years for the Niners, which is where I currently live. Again, married a barrier girl, so this is, you know, home. And then I played five for Kansas City, which by far my best five years of my career. Not even close. And that regime is still there, which is an important context for this. Like, it's the same. Everybody is still. And obviously, the success they've gone on to also, I think, plays a role in this. And then last three in Washington, which were so tumultuous, but I had my leg injury there, which was insane, and I got to come back. But there's been ownership change, there's been name change. Like, there's been so much turnover, even though it was the most recent team I played for. This is. I, I, this is so tough. I, I mean, I, I get love in both places, so I'm so grateful for that, especially because my.

Can I tell you what?

I thought my Niner career was so shitty for so long.

Can I tell you what I thought you were going to say?

Yeah.

Okay, so I've never been with you in Casey. Okay. But I've been with you in the airport around here, and whenever someone comes up to you in the Bay, when I'm around, they actually talk often about the same play. They talk about the play against the Saints.

Right.

And the reason I had thought that you were going to say like that fan base and that group was actually. I thought that it was a little bit more of like they went through it with you. Yeah, right. Like that, like the, the faithful here, like, I feel like that was like they felt like that was their touchdown too. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because like it had been bad and I actually.

Totally. And I actually think it's pertinent into this conversation because for a different way, when after my first four years were so rocky and not great, like I, I had a chance to leave.

Yeah.

Like after my fourth year, like to just get out of Dodge. I'd had four coordinators in four years, two head coaches. Like it had been so tumultuous. But again, like I was, I'd been, I'd had injuries. I, you know, so inconsistent. And I definitely had a chance to leave. And I distinctly remember looking around, but the Niners also offered me a chance to come back. So that was like, I think key in this. I distinctly remember thinking that there are these kind of journeyman quarterbacks and that once you start that journey, right, like once you think the grass is greener and you jump on a one year deal somewhere else and then that doesn't work and then you're jumping again to another one and like it just continues.

And then you become. You're all of a sudden you're Gus Farot.

Yes, totally. And at best, at best you're out. But like most of those guys, to.

Be honest, also, is there any better name for a journeyman quarterback than Alex Smith, by the way? Which is like, you know, it's just like. So it would actually work really well if you weren't so good, you know. Oh, the journeyman, you know, like an Alex Smith type, you know, so.

So Robbie, you just wash out of the league. Sorry to finish. Like, you just. You, you wash out of the league after like seven years and it's just kind of whatever. And I distinctly. And, and, and in some ways that's a, you're, it's a mercenary in the sense that you're like, it's get out of Dodge. Right. Like, oh, it's better over there. It was, you know, in some ways it's like it wasn't my fault and, and so just to finish up. I do think the fact that then I stayed and that finally it fucking turned.

I love that you stayed. But like, it is, you know, every athlete, even the greatest, Tom Brady, was asked to leave at some Point, Right.

Yeah.

And so as much as you don't want to be the mercenary and try to find the best situation for you, all right, like the time is ticking to when they are going to ask you to leave. Right. Like the most famous saying on the, you know, when a coach gets hired is like, all this means is the clock has started for my, for my, for my dismissal.

Right. The future former. The future former coach. Future former quarterback.

Exactly. So Robbie, like talk. Talk about this phenomenon in the business world.

Oh, yeah, totally.

And you know, I get into a lot of disagreements with my good friend Nick Arison, who I think in pro sports there are. I can't name a franchise that values loyalty more than the Miami Heat. I mean, the people who work there have worked there for decades. Literally decades from the head coach to par.

Right.

And so like the picture of loyalty. But I would always argue with Nick to say, look like attrition is healthy and it's okay to have some mercenaries leave, right? Because it gives you a chance to replenish your, your bullpen.

Right.

And in a business sense, you know, how do you balance keeping, you know, your most loyal employees, people who are great producers, but also encouraging those people to leave so you can refresh the culture, refresh the, you know, the, the performers. Right? Because it can get stale and you get disrupted if you don't have a modicum of that balance of attrition and loyalty. And I don't even know if loyalty is the right word. And I don't think it's. Loyalty can often be misconstrued for.

Just.

Lack of ambition and lack of wanting to move on to the next spot you're comfortable.

Right.

And that's when loyalty, I think, becomes a detriment in your, in your organization. So, so talk about to me when you're on the instacart, when you're at Sequoia, the balance between loyalty, transactionalism and mercenaries.

So maybe a few different things that I think about this one. I, I also love Nick Harrison and you know, he, his, his wedding is where, you know, we, we first started hanging out.

So.

Well, you know. But I on this one have a slightly different view than he does and I'll tell you why. So to your point, so one, I think the only thing that makes like a lifer somewhere special is that it's unique. If everybody's a lifer, it's not, it's not unique anymore. Right. Like it has to be that, like there was some turmoil and there was better for you in the short term. To leave, you know what I'm saying? So one theme I think that's a huge deal for like long term relationships is sort of like you stuck with it when you didn't have to, you know. And so I think that, I think in order for Lifer to be special, it has to be unique. But now to answer your question of like, okay, how do companies deal with this? I think people deal with it differently. But my view is one, companies change a lot of, they change a lot over time. Like when they get started, they are, I'll just give you an example. When something starts in a, when a startup starts in the proverbial garage, right? The way you make decisions, the job responsibilities of each person are a certain way. Like everyone does everything, right? Everyone knows everything. It actually is just having like a group of 10 people definitionally their responsibilities mash together. There's more problems than there are people. Like I said, everyone does everything. Everyone knows what the other one's doing. There's sort of like a, there's almost like a, a familial aspect to it, right? Contrast that to something that's a thousand people and there's necessarily, there's processes for how do we do things. There's more clear lines of responsibility for who does what. There's. You people are managing people. So the reason that I don't think like loyalty to the company is the most important aspect that matters there is like you might not do your best work at the new place, whereas you might be somebody who really enjoys being in like a small thing, you know, like you might do your best work at 0 to 10 people as opposed to a thousand people. And what you really want for the company is people doing the best work of their lives. So because the company changes, it's not like one thing, right? So I think that's one thing that like matters a lot. I think the second thing, remember in pro sports what you guys have is you have a definitional meritocracy of who plays, right? If you're not best for the team to win, you won't play. Now obviously there's all these other things that go into it, but fundamentally, right, you know, for the core product that you have, there's a meritocracy. And I actually think that is like absolutely critical for any organization because what it is, is it provides fairness. What people really want above all else is they want fairness. They want to know like, how does it work and what are the rules to advance on yours in the most important, one, most important part of the Product for the organizations you guys used to work for. It's like, can you help us win? And so to me, in a company, the thing that you have to be able to look everybody in the face to say is you have to be able to tell them, look, if you help us win, you will be here in advance. It can't be, in my opinion, how long you've been here. That is the thing that determines whether you get to, you know, make money, be senior. Because all of a sudden, how do I recruit somebody new who might help us win if it's like, I can literally never catch up, right? I can never be here as long as this other person. And I think it's immensely frustrating for people if they're playing a game that they know they can't win, right? So I actually think a huge thing comes back to, like, ultimately, if you actually care about the company, you need the best people to work there. And what you need is them doing their best work. And I actually think that it's, like, incongruous to say that, like, loyalty is the thing that determines whether you're the best person to work here. No, what I would say is the unique person that finds ways to be valuable at 10 people and valuable at 50 and valuable at 200 and valuable at 500. They're amazing. And they, like, are, like, the soul of these places. And. But it's because it's unique, you know? And I guess to me, as the leader, your obligation is to be loyal to, like, the mission, which is to, like, achieve something. And the only way to be loyal to the mission is to constantly, in business, get the best people, keep it fresh, and that's the way I square it in my mind. And I actually, I'm like, pretty sure I'm right. You know what I'm saying? Like, on that, for our world.

I agree. And I guess as you were explaining that, like, the thing that hits me is, like, loyalty is a part of this. But again, that's not. You're not optimizing for loyalty. It's a byproduct of being able to evaluate. And I think this is the point here. Not just your team, but the larger market, right? Like, you need to. How do you know you have the best guys or the best people? Sorry, but, like, unless you know the larger market, right? Like, again, multiple examples here. Like, Matthew Slater for the Patriots is considered, like, one of the greatest special teams players of all time. Like, he played for the Patriots, like, every super bowl for, like, 18 years. And again, they. They take him, they get him, they develop him, but like you don't keep him unless, you know. And again, he was like a, and I'm, I mean he was like a 15 time Pro Bowler, like all Pro. Like, you know, I'm saying like you. The loyalty only happens as a byproduct of knowing that he is the best of the best and there is ultimate craft. And again, he, he took so much pride in being a freaking gunner on punt, right? Like this guy did his very particular job better than anybody for a long time. But like then loyalty again is the byproduct of that, that they've kept in. But again, you only. And vice versa, right? Like the Giants look like freaking idiots because they have draft Saquon Barkley have him in their building. They, they don't know how to evaluate him on the open market, right, like, and realize how special he is. And he walks out the door to their division rival who, you know, and then we go on to. He has one of the greatest years in the history of football for a running back. Like so, like that, that inability to evaluate, right, like not just your team, but how they, how it pertains to the larger market is like so critical in this.

I want to go back to what Robbie said, which I, which I love. Loyalty to the mission. So when you're talking about a Matthew Slater, was he loyal to like the craft of being a great gunner, right? Was he, was he loyal to. Hey, I'm gonna optimize my position, you know, and help the team win. It's not like I'm loyal to Bill Belichick. I'm loyal to.

Yes, yes, yes, right. I love what you're saying, right?

I'm, I'm loyal to being the best I can be in this position. And if you have enough of that, you're gonna, you're gonna win, right? That's, that's the paramount thing. Loyalty to the mission.

And also, dude, of course it has to be. If you really think about, I think the loyalty to the mission is like the only way to have any like, scaled approach here because then what you can say is like, we have a standard that is forever, right? Like the mission is the thing that we all serve. Like one of the greatest lines. And it's from, it's this very interesting thing, but, and it's from a weird example, but apparently Jack Dorsey when he was running Twitter 100 years ago, somebody he was talking to, somebody who was like junior to him and they introduced themselves to somebody at some event, they're like, oh, I'm so and so. I work for Jack and Jack, to his eternal credit, it's like, you don't work for me. We both work for Twitter. And I was like, that's cool. He was the CEO, right? And the sort of like, elevation to that, I thought that was super cool. The other thing about loyalty, I'll tell you, we always talk about how you're on multiple teams. You would not believe the number of times in my world somebody is just destroyed their personal life right there. There's not spending enough time at home, they're doing dumb stuff. And you know, you'll tell them you work with them, you're like, listen, man, listen, person, you should leave. You gotta go and take care of stuff at home. And the person will look you right in the eye and they'll be like, well, I don't know if I can do that. Why not? Well, you know, my team here. And I'm like, are you a fucking idiot? Right? Like, you know, what team is your number one team? Is your family? Like, you're. You're going to talk about this team here above the team, your number one team. Can you say that in front of your spouse and your kids? And imagine how embarrassed you'd be. So I do think this thing on loyalty also that matters, like, remember what it's really about, you know what I'm saying? Like, one thing I liked about Harbaugh was like, he's like, you know, start with your faith, then go to your family and then come to us. And I'm like, yes, like, there is an order that makes sense. And that's where I think, Shane, like, loyalty is a big deal because it's like, loyalty to who? And also like, loyalty to even within the company. To what? To mission or to the people.

And totally. And buried in this. Then again, I love that because if you were like sitting down in an interview or then like hopefully doing diligence on somebody and if they had incredible loyalty to their family. Yeah, you would hope that suggests that potentially they can develop and will have loyalty for us. Right? Like that those are not. And in fact, those are both positives and vice versa. The person who maybe demonstrates less loyalty in their personal life and what matters to them there, right? Like, would suggest that, like, well, maybe they won't be quite as loyal when. When push comes to shove. Cheryl, when we had her on, was talking about, like, in soccer, if the defending, the defenders all optimize for not giving up a goal and the forwards only optimize for scoring, like, and neither Work with each other. Yeah, right. Like, the team's worse off, obviously. Again, like, if they only are worried about their. Their, like, core unit, you know.

Yeah.

But this is how they fit into the larger group.

I think another thing, man, is, like, people change, organizations change, People change. You know, people like, you know, I will tell you, like, one of the more notable things for me is, like, people are different when they get married. Like, you know, we see people like all of us, we've seen people at different points of their lives, right. We see them before they're married. We see them after they get married. We see them when they have. Before they have kids. We see them after they have kids. Sometimes people change. And. And the reason I think that matters so much is, like, it might not be the. The best place for them as they go and evolve and as they, you know, reach higher versions of themselves and this and that. Like, I think we all probably, like, look back at, like, what we thought about when we were, like, 22 or even 27 or 30, you know, like, it's different. And I think that part of the thing, Shane, the reason I go back on this, like, loyalty point and kind of like, man, like, you know, it's hard to keep the same people forever because they change, too. Yep.

Off camera, we're talking about, you know, the role of the hired gun is. Is it okay to recruit hired guns? Is it okay to recruit and welcome to your team people who are completely transactional and talk about loyalty to the mission. Like, that's all they have is loyalty to the mission. And you know what you're getting, all right, but you're not getting any more. Any more human connection. You're not building any trust. When is it okay to hire the transactional person, the hired gun, just to come in and do the deed.

Great. I think it's okay when. And again, this kind of comes back to the craftsmanship, right? Like, there's certain guys, they get. They get said all the time in sports, like, oh, that guy's a pro, Like, a pro's pro. And I think what they mean by that, and I've been around these guys that. That, again, have had great longevity, but they've bounced from team to team and never, like, stuck, but they are. They get in. And it's like, it is very important for them to play their position at the highest level, Right. And they are craftsmen, Right. They relentlessly work at that. Now their larger motivator is not the team, like, at, you know, at all. I don't know if it was Top five, right? They go to Jim Harbaugh, like, but it was very important to them to be really, really good at their job, like one of the best. And that's enough. I think, like, if they've demonstrated the relentlessness at that level, I think they can fit in with a larger team and be successful.

I, I would, I totally agree with that, obviously. But that was a very positive take on the, on the higher gun. I'll go with a little bit more of like a negative take on them. But the reason I tell you, like, my answer is still yes, Shane. But it's like, well, it depends on how bad of a situation are you in, right? Because when I look at it, like there are times where a company needs to get sold, right? Like, it is, it is not going to work as an independent entity and it is time to get this to be part of a larger thing. Okay? And in those situations, you know, you get a hired gun and you put in what's called a single trigger vesting requirement. Okay? So usually vesting for your stock happens, you know, it's double trigger. It's like you need to be here for a certain amount of time and we need to have some sort of liquidity event. We go public or we sell. Otherwise your stock does invest cool in the moments. The way that you can signal if a hired gun has come in is they get a single trigger vesting event. Doesn't matter how long you're here.

We know what the deal is, right?

We. What matters. You don't have to spell it out, right? You think this thing sold, you get paid.

Yeah.

Right. And that is like the, the, the tech, you know, the, the canonical example or textbook sign of a hired gun. And like that happens because there's times like, look, I just need this thing to get done, then, then like there's a spectrum. Let's say there's a company that is really nice and loose and, you know, so like, you know, easygoing, but not commercial at all. Sometimes, even if it's not going to work for a long time, like, maybe the answer is like they bring in a hired gun to run sales. I'm like, hey, listen, this person's gonna go and sell the shit out of this product, you know, so, yeah, I think it's okay sometimes. And you know, Shane, Pat Riley can't have 12 milk drinkers. You know, sometimes you need someone to drink some Jack Daniels.

Creative tension.

I, I think you gotta see what kind of situation you're in. Like, and, you know, make the decision if you're winning and you're, you know, everything's cool, whatever. But, like, I don't know, like, I'll use an example. I also think just, like, mix sports and business for a second, dude. Like, it also matters who's already in the building. Like, when the Bulls got Rodman, you know, like, he's kind of a hired gun in that situation. But they knew, like, well, we have our, like, alpha dog, and he's going to be, like, managed accordingly. So I think that also goes in. In, like, business sometimes where it's like, okay, like, could. Could Bezos have brought in a hired gun if he wanted to? It's like, yeah, there's no question who the boss is.

Yeah.

You know, so maybe that also matters.

Yeah. I think you make a really good point on the timing. I think the. The context of the time will determine whether the hired gun is. Is worthwhile. And, you know, I would argue unless you're near the end, you know, you're trying to sell, okay. Or you see the light of the end of the tunnel, it is never. It is never good to hire.

It's hard to argue with this. Yeah.

It's never why, when you have people who are. Who are solely focused on mission, okay? And don't create any trust amongst the team, okay? It's all great till it's not okay? And the one constant and the one thing that's going to happen is there's going to be crisis, there's going to be adversity, okay? Unless you're so close to the end, obviously, you're. You're exploring, you know, exploring the sale, you're finalizing the sale, yada, yada, yada. And when the crisis hits and there's no trust, the entire operation falls apart. Right. Brittle team, okay? So we know the one thing that's going to be constant is there's going to be adversity, there's going to be trouble, all right? Something's going to get messed up. You know, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Mike Tyson. Right. And unless. Unless you see the light at the end of the tunnel and, you know, you know, you can just basically limp across the line or. Or just. Just triage it. That mercenary is going to undermine everything you're trying to build as a. As a cohesive unit, as a cohesive company, as a cohesive team. Right? And like, we, like, you know, there are. We talk about athletes at the end. You know, I would argue that the. The Bulls did bring in Rodman because Michael Jordan was up there, right. They saw the end of the, Michael Jordan wasn't a 24 year old at that point.

Right.

And they probably wouldn't have brought Dennis Robin in for a 24 year old Michael Jordan.

Right.

But he can't, but he came back. Okay. And they were, you know, they knew they could win a couple more championships. And so you know what? We see the end of the tunnel. We can bring in this, this hired gun, this mercenary, right. And so I, I think it's super important that when you talk about this, you know, so I, I, I don't think you ever should bring in a hired gun, a mercenary until unless you know you're at the final stage and you're trying to squeak out a win or get across the finish line.

I, I, I think there's an element here of how rare the talent is, like what they do. And you brought up sales, Ravi, like because it's such a big, like again this is the epitome of transaction. It's like eat what you kill the like the stereotype of like the frat guys, you know, like hard charging sales guys. That and all in certain people, right, like especially enterprise sales, they have this like knack for it and can get it done and they're highly sought after. But for me, I think of like left tackles in football. Like there are only so many human beings that can do that at a high level and I don't give a how loyalty is to the bigger team. If he can play left tackle and it is important to him to be a good left tackle, like he's worth.

It, he's going to protect.

You aren't a perfect example of this. Have had a, it has been a turnstile at the left tackle position for the Chiefs and when they had guys that were good enough, they won Super Bowls. And last year they didn't and they didn't win one. And again, like it has been transactional at that position. And if you get a pros pro, a guy that it can play winning football, you get him and it's enough.

I can't wait for baddie to yell.

At you like it's enough winning football.

The only way a line is good is if they're cohesive now.

No, not left tackle. You play by yourself out there. It's a lonely place, just out on the edge.

So not a lot of health.

And you're blocking freaking Micah Parsons, the werewolf is running off the edge and it's loud. You're on the road, the fans are screaming and you, your quarterback's Lifting his leg, and you're trying to time up the snap. Like, again, this is a very special skill set that there aren't just. There aren't guys on the street walking around that you can go get to do this. Like, there are not even 32 of them.

So you're. Okay. We're able to clone Orlando Pace and bring him back. Okay, but it's Orlando Pace, and he's an. No one wants to. Doesn't want to talk to anybody. He doesn't look anybody in the eye. And you say, you know, Orlando, you're so. You're so toxic. And I think Orlando Pace actually a good dude, but, like, evil, evil Orlando Pace. Okay?

We don't want.

You don't come to practice, okay? I want you to work out of home. And, like, you know, here, the pure. The play. Here's the playbook. Show up on Sunday and just do your job, and that's good enough. You. You'd be okay with that?

Yes. Yes.

Oh, gosh, I want to rush. I want to rush against that guy.

Are you kidding? Yes.

But can. Can I. Can I tell you something for a second? So, obviously I don't know the answer to this question, but if you made me guess who I'd agree with in this case, I'd probably agree with Alex, only because, like, he was protected by a left tackle. But, like, that's just. Just one man's opinion. But here's what I would say, though, Shane. I think that if I'm, like, a business leader right now hearing this, I'm sort of, like, nodding my head, being like, I know, I know, I know I shouldn't do this. I know. But, dude, you have no idea how big my problem is. Right? Not you, but, like, we, like, the guys, like, don't live in the theory right now. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna lose this. And I think the thing that's actually happening is you and I both agree that if you're not going to be able to. If the thing's gonna go to zero. Yeah. Bring in the hired gun and get it done. Cool. But everybody has their own definition of, like, crisis. There are companies that are, like, flatlining on growth, where they'll be. They'll be okay, but they're like, oh, my God, I'm going to go from a growth company to a, you know, to a cash flow company. I can't have that happen. I'm going to lose my status. I got to do this. So I actually think the most interesting thing is it's sort of like, how bad does the leader think their problem is? Right? And how close are you to the end of. Not like the company. We all agree then, but the real thing is like, you can only do it when it's like a crisis. You're saying it's a crisis because you're going to die in the pocket if somebody isn't there. I'm saying it's a crisis for the business if it's going to die. I think the real thing that ends up happening is leaders determine what crisis is and some of them have too low of a standard and they run from crisis to crisis and they do crazy shit every time they think it's a crisis. But you see what I'm saying, that's just like normal course business operations that I actually think is a huge deal. I think that you can break your principle in certain cases, I guess, but you can't do it all the time.

That's the problem. Yeah, talent is a drug. Yeah, talent is a drug. And you are enticed by the easy wins of having talent. And that is. I will go down the ship on that. You can find talent anywhere.

No, this is about, this is about scarcity. Like when there isn't talent everywhere. Like, again, that's my point. When, when it is. When this, when there is supply, scarcity, right? For this talent, right? Like you got this problem. You need an answer. There's only so many guys that can, or people that can do this thing right again. There are not 32 starting left tackles in the NFL.

Here's what's interesting, Alex. Listen, you were a starting quarterback in the NFL for 16 years, right? So you are like, hey, listen, I know there's not very many of them. Cool. Let's just say right now you have like earned credibility on like, no, no, no, no, no. It's a crisis. There is scarcity, whatever. I do totally think that Shane is right, that basically people that weren't starting quarterbacks in the NFL equivalent, right. Are determining that there's crises everywhere. And then they do dumb. Let's just give you that. It's the left tackle. Okay? Let's just say that you're right. The problem is people will do it for the nose guard. They will do it for every other position too, because they mentally create crises every time something goes wrong, you know, and so this is actually something that happens with people all the time, which is that they tell you like, no, no, no, it's not that I actually want to do this, but I have to. And here is why. And so it's like, there's not even the exceptions, you know, they just, like, do it all the time, you know, rather.

I agree. The exception cannot be the rule. Right. However, if you are going to be so, like, steadfast that I will never, ever.

I wouldn't.

I'm not only going to optimize for Loya.

Yeah.

You'll never win, ever. Like, does that make, you know, like. I don't think you can only optimize for loyalty, like building a team.

I think you better have a better protection scheme. How about that?

You. You're. You're the famous one that said you want the whiskey drinkers. You know, you need some whiskey.

But that's more for creative. That's more for cohesive tension, that's more for competitive tension. And that. I believe in bringing in whiskey drinkers just to keep people on edge, all right? And introduce a dynamic, right? And if their talent can meld and we can bring that person along, that's additive. I'm talking about the person that doesn't want to work with anybody is toxic and brings people down, all right? Despite their immense talent, it is not sustainable. It's not sustainable. So I agree with you, Ravi. Like, we define our own crises.

That's the thing, right?

And it goes back to timeframe. What's your. What is your timeframe?

Right?

And I think that here's the thing, which is, like, I think that a huge element of being, like, a good decision maker is knowing what an actual crisis is in where you can go and, like, do something like. Alex, I really believe this. Like, I actually think that, like, your definition of crisis here is a good one. Just so you know, like, you're defi. Left tackle, protecting the blind side, right? Like, and. And specifics to the position of they actually have to play less within the. The scheme and, like, more as an individual. That, to me is like, actually a pretty unique definition of like. No, no, no. I'm not saying everywhere. I'm not saying in the wide receiver. I'm just saying for this one specific thing, and I'm cool with that. I think that what I would tell you a lot of the times is like, maybe it's as simple as this. We use this term at Sequoia called crucible moments. A lot companies go through crucible moments. And what we always tell people is, like, listen, if you have one crucible moment a year, right? However you define it, cool. Sounds like you're probably defining it, right? If you have 10, you know, you are defining it wrong. That is Not a crucible moment. And if you have zero, you're probably defining it wrong too, right? You're probably asleep at the switch if you say you never have them. And so I think that's, to me, the thing which is, like, how often are these situations coming up? Right, Whatever. Like, I'll give you an example of something that came from the business world for me. There was a company that I once observed where at one point the person was saying that we have a. We have to, like, hire this person who wasn't great in, like, communications. And it was like, why? And there's like, all these compromises that were going to get made to hire this person. It's like, well, we have a comms crisis. We really need somebody. And you just kind of look at the person and you're like, do you really think you're using the word crisis properly right now? Like, you know, like, comms, like, things last, like, 24 hours. Like, think about what goes on in the world, and then we just, like, forget. Like, do you really think our company has a comms crisis where you should, like, piss off the rest of your leadership team by, like, doing this? Like, you might have the wrong definition of crisis. My point is, I think that, like, that is the thing that happens. It's not the left tackle breakout, one person on the football team problem. It's like, you hire, you get a bunch of assholes on the team because you're like, oh, I need to protect my quarterback. And the line is really important and everyone, you know what I'm saying? They don't actually carve it out.

Totally. I. Yeah, I agree. This is like back when, you know, and you remember, who was it when Vince Young called the Eagles the Dream Team, you know, you remember, like, and it was again, it was all these, like, big names, free agents all coming together. And obviously that was Andy Reid still, and didn't work out so well. But. No, no, totally agreed. Then again, like, I don't think you can do this everywhere. I don't think you can build a team out of just a bunch of mercenaries. But, like, I also, again, don't think you could be so, like.

And there's also, from a. From a management standpoint, you're never going to get dinged, okay, by making a splashy hire for spiky talent, because it's a proxy that you're trying.

Yeah, right. I know.

So you bring in this. This amazing coder, all right, that he's got this long resume, but his complete dick, all right? Everyone's gonna be like, okay, Because a couple things happen. Everybody says, oh, I can change them, I can change her, right? Oh, our culture is gonna be so good. They're, they're just gonna, they're gonna, they're going to shape up and we're going to get their talent and it's going to be an amazing, amazing thing, right? And Pat Riley's done that literally for 30 years of getting guys and bringing them into the heat culture and making them lose a few pounds and they're really good players, right. And they can't replicate that success elsewhere, right? So leaders think I can change them. They don't know my leadership style. I can raise them up. And B, there's some protection is in there that I'm not. Like, my shareholders aren't going to come after me. My employees, they're, they're going to give me the benefit of the doubt for the super talented person, right? Until that talented person shows their ass and they're not a team player. And now you got a whole new set of problems, right, that you have to unwind and undo.

Shane, okay, how do you take this? I agree with that. That makes sense. I do think there's hubris in there as well as. I hadn't thought about the second point that you just said of like, sort of. You call it protectionism, but like makes sense. There is some element to me that I think about of like, you know, I always tell you as my dad has this quote of like, you can't learn someone else's lessons for them. I do think it's valuable, like as you're like an early leader to like make some of these mistakes yourself and not just listen to like the old heads around you because you can't viscerally know that until you're like, like right now when you're talking, I'm kind of like nodding my head being like, yep, I remember doing that. You know I'm saying like, yep. I remember thinking that, like, yep. I remember ignoring that back channel reference that I got. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I.

When did you know that it wasn't going to work out?

Oh, dude.

When did you, like, you know exactly the moment, like, when did that moment happen? You're like, crap, this person, they're really good. You know, she has it. And when did you know? All crap.

I can tell you inside of, inside of, inside of two months. Inside of two months. Because what happens is first what happens, they come in, they're on great behavior, they do the good thing, and you're like, I'm a fucking genius. I saw the Matrix here. Like all the rest of these people, they're so stupid. They just needed like a really great leader and someone who's really visionary and good looking and then it would be cool, you know what I'm saying? And then what happens is like two months later, something happens that you heard of in the back channel reference, the same behavior, some like little smidgen of it. You're like, oh, oh right. Like this is, this is the thing that I. This is the thing that I thought only happened to the other people. And when you realize it, you're like, oh no. Like, what am I going to do now?

Oh no.

And you feel to your point like you feel so dumb because you're like, I knew that this was it. Now I think that like you said, it doesn't happen every time. There were, there was a time in something I was involved with where we were like, listen, we know basically, Shane, what happened was we weren't doing all that well, right. As a company and we were kind of like, we don't really even have a hand here. Like, yes, this person is imperfect, but like, what are we going to do? We don't have a good hand. And so we purposefully, understandably, we knew that we were getting some more talent than we deserved, but it also had more problems, you know what I'm saying? But like that's what we could get. That to me was okay, calculated risk. Like you got to do what you got to do, but the times where it's the worst or when you're like, you get like impatient, you know, where you just like, you just kind of need something to do and you do it and then you. I totally agree. It's like that there is a moment where you realize you messed it up and it is like, it's just so pronounced. You're like, I'm so dumb. Why did I do this?

I think your idea that how they fit in with the team and their relationship to the team is important in this, in the sense of like, to use another football analogy, like maybe one of the most like high profile mercenaries in football was Deion Sanders.

Yeah.

Ever. Right. And again, this is a guy that like could stereotypically take the opponent's best receiver out of the game. Right. Like you just weren't throwing over there and he did Falcons and like again, the famously the Niners needed a corner and went and got him for a one year rental and won a championship. And then Dallas got him and won a Bunch of championships. And then he went to the Ravens in Washington at the end, like again. But he played in, in isolation a lot of the time because he was this man to man corner and again he could plug in and play and he. You want to talk about a craftsman, right? Again, like that he took, he took the challenge of being maybe the best cover corner ever. Right. But again, not necessarily this loyalty to any team in particular, but does it matter? And then on the flip side of that, do you guys know who's maybe considered the greatest arm talent ever at quarterback? Jeff.

Jeff George.

George. Jeff George.

Really?

Yeah, it's. It's kind of Dan Marino. Jeff George or like Jeff George went.

To University of Illinois, right?

Yeah, that's right. First pick, widely considered one of the greatest talents at the quarterback position, but just also regarded as a pain in the ass.

Yeah.

And played for 14 years. I think he played on eight or nine teams. Just freaking bounced around team to team rentals. I mean, could play and start, but just like never found success ever. And never sustained success. And was kind of known to be, yeah, like a me guy. And again had confrontations with teammates and coaches and stuff. But again, this is the quarterback position. You step into the huddle. This is so often you got the ball in your hand every freaking play. There are so many people depending on you and trusting you and yeah, like that. I think, I don't think there's ever been a story of that position. But again, those two and to your point, like, I know you threw out sales, but I do think that like again in the business world, so often that is a unit that works in isolation, right. Like they got a job, one job to do and it's very particular and they need to go do it and so.

Well, so this is super interesting, super interesting. So we talk about sales in a tech company. There's actually a role, okay, There's a role and there is a role at like places like Google and Amazon or whatever for imagine, like, imagine if you're like an amazing engineer, right? Like I'm talking like you could just like you can make magic, right? Give you the racing gloves and the big Gulp, you know, hashtag shout out to my friend saga, who came that up, you know, but like just make magic, okay? Anyway, some of those times those people aren't great managers, as you can imagine, right. Like they're highly introverted. They don't really want to manage people, they just want to like, cook, Right? Yeah. So these tech companies as they got bigger, like the normal course for an Employee is you get more seniors to take on management. And so they had this problem where they're like, this person is not a good manager, but they are an obscenely good engineer. And so they just created a new role. It's called the distinguished engineer. Literally, it's just, like, we now have a track where you don't have to talk to anybody. You can just, like, get busy. Okay? You can just code, and we're going to pay you, like, a senior person. You can be senior, but you're called distinguished engineer. And I. One of my favorite tweets that I've ever had was during, like, Kyrie's peak, like, craziness as a teammate. Like, he, you know, going out there, he's saying crazy stuff. He keeps on getting, like, in weird places on the team, and everyone's gonna like, whatever. And I'm like, they should have a distinguished engineer for the NBA, right? Like, because Kyrie Irving would be the most amazing distinguished engineer that there is. Like, dude, just, like, go play. Like, just go play by yourself. You are so good. And just, like, basketball, like, the things that you can do are ridiculous. And we just need.

We don't.

Don't worry about managing. Don't worry about leaving the team. Just get out there and cook. And I will tell you, like, I wrote that. And then I was like, this is very niche content. And all these people who are, like, nerdy basketball fans like, me, like, they're like, this is brilliant. This is the greatest tweet of all time. But that is my. One of my good takes. Kyrie should be a distinguished engineer.

You know, just isolate him. Siloing.

Just, like, just go in the corner and do amazing basketball.

Say less, Kyrie. Say less.

Alex, did you ever have a teammate?

You know, you don't.

You don't need to name names. Where the talent was tantalizing. And then you knew right away in. In either OTAs or. Or. Or preseason, you're like, oh, man, I got to deal with this guy.

I mean, for me, this just screams the receiver position. Like, let me just. This whole conversation. Receivers have been in the back of my mind, these guys are the biggest prima donnas of all time, right? The egos are through the roof. They are so hyper competitive with each other. Who's the best? Who has the best stats, who makes the most money? I mean, let me tell you this. Infamously, Jerry Rice, right? The greatest. Maybe the greatest football player ever. Like, this guy, like, he wasn't. He wasn't always, like, roses and easy to be around as A teammate, like, if he didn't get his fucking catches. He was hot, right? Like, he's like, man, like, infamously, like, you know, like, again. And. And I think that's part of obviously what made him great, you know, like, that's. That was buried in there. The same thing, the same spikiness that made him so good also made him not so easy necessarily to be around all the time. And every great receiver that I've ever played with is kind of like this. Really?

Did you see that? Did you guys see the tweets that I sent you guys recently from Chad Ochocinko?

Oh, so good.

Yeah, so good. 2:00am Alex, you should describe it, but he's like, I used to call my quarterback at 2:00 in the mornings. Like, I'm open.

I'm open. That's my point. I'm open. You would come back into the huddle every play. Every receiver would tell me they're open. Then the worst part is you can't, like, validate it in the moment. And so you really had to. Like, this is like coaches knowing which players, you know, when they give them the review signal, like, which ones they can trust.

Yeah.

Because then you'd watch the film the next day and you'd be like, what the hell? You were not open. Like, that's not open. You putting your hand up, you know, like, um. And so, like, no, there is a give and take with all these guys. Like, you know. Yeah, like Randy Moss, man. Like, you know, like, these guys, like, they're again. And how special they are versus it. Tyreek Hill, like, again playing with them. You knew, and as I got older, you knew again that if there was a level of talent and production, I was just fine with it. Right. Like, I want. I. Hell yeah. Sign me up.

You know what? I've started.

I'll take. I'll take a little bit of heartburn.

You know what I started doing now that you. Since you told us about what Randy Moss would do before games?

Yeah.

Now I just lie down in my Office and watch SpongeBob before board meetings. You know, just like, just to get myself in the mindset.

But that. Yeah, like, again. And I don't. You know, this is a different conversation. But, like, you want those guys with the killer instinct, right? You want the guy that thinks they're freaking the best out there and that they cannot lose. And I want the ball all the time. Like, I don't want a receiver that doesn't come back and tell me, throw me the ball. Right? Like, yeah, Coming to that, coming to that conclusion.

If you have leaders that can deal with it, yes.

Right.

If you have people that can deal with it.

Right.

And maybe that's a sign of a great coach, right, that knows how to extract what's worth extracting and not let what is not worth extracting, not affect the team.

Shane, you know, you know what's fascinating about what you just said there? You remember what you said earlier of like, every coach thinks that they can get. Every leader thinks that they can be the special one to get the thing out of this person, you know? Do you know, have you, have I told you guys this about what's happened to median CEO pay over time?

No.

Okay, so the median. Right, like, no, not the average. The 50th percentile median CEO pay, if you go look it up, keeps on going up. Okay, well, that's interesting. Is that because companies are more profitable? What is it? No, sorry. Companies are more profitable, but median CEO pay keeps on going up because everyone who's a CEO has been like, pretty good at their job coming up. Right? Like, you know, obviously, because otherwise they wouldn't make CEO. And so nobody believes that they are a below median performer. Not a single CEO, every CEO thinks that they're, you know, like a. If you ask any CEO, what percentile are you like, I guarantee you the answer will be between the 80th and 99th percentile, like the most humble one in the world. And like, I don't know, like 80th percentile. Right? Like, nobody's like, I'm like a fifth percentile CEO performer. But definitionally there have to be. Right. Like, it's just a distribution. It's within CEOs. So what happens is compensation committees always hear their CEO being like, well, yeah, I think I'm pretty good. And so then they just pay everyone. Okay, well, let me look at this comp data. Well, okay, well, we'll target the 75th percentile. The 80th percentile, but you're really 99th. Right, but we're going to target, you know, 80th percentile. And so then what happens? The media, it keeps going up, right? Every time. And it's the same thing that happens on coaches, which is why they take on these players sometimes because they're like, well, I'm, I'm not like a regular coach. I'm a great coach. I can deal with it. You know, and it comes back that, just thinking about what you said earlier, it all comes back to that. It's like in the movie, you know, mean girls, when the woman's like, I'm not a regular mom, I'm a cool mom.

Oh, so intellectual honesty is a great skill to have.

I think so.

Knowing. Knowing what you don't know.

This is why the public markets are just an incredible gift to the world, because people that play in the public markets generally have a reasonable ego. Right. As you can imagine, if you're like a hedge fund owner, you know, or like somebody who invests for a living, you know, present company excluded, of course. But the thing that's so great with the public markets is they are the ultimate truth teller. You can say, oh, I'm really great, you know, I'm a great this. But you know what happens every day, every minute, every second, you're smacked in the face with, like, truth. I don't know, man. Show me the numbers, show me the receipts.

Right, but like, how often, how often are they wrong, though? Right?

Like, they are, but. But all that matters. Yes, but. But like, over time, you need to prove yourself to be right.

Right.

It's over the long term. They're right. So the closest thing that we have in the business world to sports is the public markets. Yeah, Right. Because there's immediate feedback over and over.

And over and over again.

It's the closest thing what we have. J.