The Parent Trap - [Glue Guys, EP.39]

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My oldest son plays club soccer and I fucking yell out, ref. Well, the ref stops the game and comes over and is like, who said that? And I just shrunk back.

Number one pick all pro quarterbacks or 215.

All right, so I've been thinking about this. It's something I read like many years ago and it was a question. I forget what publication was in, but doesn't matter which was the the question or the title was like, does becoming a parent make you a bad person? It's obviously such a ridiculous title because you obviously think the other thing, it like brings out the best in you. But the premise of the article was sort of like, because you put your kids ahead of everything else. When you become a parent that loves sometimes blinds you to like basic social things like your kid drops his or her ice cream and then all of a sudden you just like go to the front of the line to go get them the other one, you know, because it's like, oh my God, they're without their ice cream. And so I'll give you like a couple of examples that reminded me of this this week. And you guys will, I don't know, think about it. So one is like, you know, I was at solvent soccer game and you know, Sovin's 10, right? And so we're at a soccer game and there's, you know, this is a children's soccer Game. So there's like a regular ref in the middle and then there's two lines refs and the lines refs are like, I don't know, 14 years old, 15 years old, like, and one of them is a 14 year old boy, the other one's like a 15 year old girl. And the, the girl, the 15 year old girl is calling offsides, right? Like, and I don't know that much about soccer, but I suspect she's right, right? Like, you know, I don't know know. And these parents are losing their minds on the offsides, like, losing their minds. And, and they're losing their minds. And all of a sudden you start hearing people say stuff like, does she even know what offsides is? You know, and like, you know, remember like this is a 15, this is a high school woman, you know, who is like doing a job, like a, I don't know, spring job and is getting effectively like, like sideline berated by these parents, you know, and at one point, one of the people, one of the people on the other team is like, I can't wait to go home and watch the tape and see if that was an offside. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I literally think that there is nothing that would make me watch the tape of a child soccer game to see if the referee who's 15, made the call the right way.

Right?

But my point to this is like, for them, they're like, my child is getting robbed of, you know, fairness or a goal. And all of a sudden they're doing something that like, if you were to ask any of those people who certainly are nice people, right? There's no way they're not. Would you ever berate or insult a 15 year old doing their job if they weren't doing it properly but they were trying their best? Like, there's no way they would be like, absolutely not. I would never do that. Yet they're doing it directly at a child's soccer game. And so it made me wonder, like, I don't know, maybe that question was right. Maybe becoming a parent brings out the worst in you in some ways.

Are you a worse. Do you think you're a worse person?

I. Honestly, Shane, I think in so many ways, of course, I'm just like way better as a person because it makes you care, it makes you love them, whatever. I think there are definitely places where I have to manage it because like, if something happens, I have to like talk myself back to like, hold on, like have some perspective. But my first reaction, yes, I Would say my, My, like, natural, like, animal reaction to anything going wrong to the kids is not something I'm always proud of as it relates to the people. You know what I'm saying? And sometimes I probably break the discipline and it's not good. But yeah, like, I do, like, think about doing things for them ahead of, like, doing things for other people. Do you think it makes you any worse?

No.

I was a complete selfish asshole before I had kids.

Totally. Me too.

And, like, if you listen to my wife, like, I'm still pretty selfish. Like, it might be different, I don't know.

For.

For. For us. Because the singular focus was on our career. Right, Alex? I mean, it was. It was. You know, you talk about your schedule and, like, it's like, you know, before you had kids, like, I'm sure, like, Liz did not, like, even think about, like, having a deep conversation on. On a. On a Friday, you know, before a big game or. Or interrupt your. Your schedule, you know, so, no, we were the. We were the most selfish pricks of all time.

Yep, I got a lot going on here. It's bringing up a lot of thoughts.

Great.

1. I got to tell this story. I'm very embarrassed to tell it, so we might have to edit this out, but. Okay, this is like three years ago, Mother's Day just happened. So this is multiple Mother's Day memories here. For me, was on Sunday and like, three years ago, and my oldest son plays club soccer. So this is pertinent. We're playing a team up in the city, and we're playing at Golden Gate.

On Mother's Day.

On Mother's Day.

Okay.

At Golden Gate Park. And again, my oldest son, I mean, 11 at the time. And this will tell you, this is not. It's not a proud moment. There were like, there at this point, this. The kids aren't allowed to head her yet. At that point, they've, like, changed the rules. So when the ball goes up in the air, it. At that age, it's like just a show. It's actually kind of embarrassing because, like, the kids can't use their head. It's a penalty if they do. And like, they awkwardly. They don't quite have the touch to, like, do anything else. But so they're all kind of like high kicking at the ball, you know, which also in real soccer is a dangerous play at times. Totally.

Totally. So I can't wait to hear where this goes.

The ref.

The ref had called, and I think there's only one ref. He's like, in the middle of the field. And he's like walking around and I mean, again, like, just trying to, you know, ref in his community. It's great. And he had called like this. It repeatedly happened. This ball bouncing up in the air. Kids like, going up for these high kicks. And he calls like four of them in a row on us, on our team. And it's like, all right, fine, you know, and again, it's just awkward. But like, fast forward later in the game, another one happens and a kid on their team goes up and kicks and like, nearly hits a kid on our teams, like, in the face. Like, almost karate kicks this kid in the face. And I fucking yell out, Raph. Like, and I like, louder than I should have. Okay? And there had been, like, leading up to that, it had been building, you know, again, parents kind of inappropriately at saying stuff. Well, the ref stops the game, okay.

At you.

The whistle stops the game and comes over and is like, who said that? Right? And I'm with like a group of dads that, like, we've been talking and I just shrunk back.

Number one pick, like all pro quarterback.

Four, 215. Yeah.

And so like. And there's like, again, you get to know these parents well on your team. And so like. And you know, we're like. It's like we're school kids. The principal came over and is like, who broke the window? Well, none of us say anything, right? It's like, it's, you know, it's honor system here, right? Like, nobody's pointing fingers and I just shrink behind one of the other, like the Homer Simpson. And he kind of took the berating because it kind of came in this general direction. And I still get made fun of by my wife every Mother's Day like that I did this.

Yeah, you deserve.

Again, like, it was Mother's Day. The coach, it was so, like, sweet. He had like, roses for all the players to go give their mom after the game. It was like this really nice thing. And I yelled. I yelled out. And anyway, like, on that same note, though, do you guys. The most dangerous animals in the wild, universally, regardless of what animal you pick is a mother, right? Like, if you're hiking or riding a bike in the wild and you run up on a mama bear with her cubs, you're. You're toast. Like, if you go. If you run up on a mountain line or something and it's got. It's babies there, like, see you later. Like, you're. They're not. No one's, you know, and. And I don't think that that's a coincidence. And again, I mean, I, that's. But I think we would all go and do go at times to unnecessary places and lengths as a parent. Although. And obviously I, I think the answer is maybe both. I would love to agree with Shane. Like, I was so selfish prior to kids.

Yeah, yeah, sorry, that's like, of course. Yeah. Like, yes, that's true. I think the, the root of this is, look, maybe there's a carve out for professional athlete assholes like you guys, okay? But like, as a general matter, I do think, yes, you become better because you, like, love something more than you love yourself. All that. Stu. I do think Alex, like, that though, is the point of like the mama bear and the equivalent of like, you know, papa bear of like just all of a sudden, like, protect, but protect from things that are not actual safety concerns. Like, at least plausibly, like someone was gonna get kicked in the face. In your analogy, in mine, in your story, like, in mine, like, what, the kid didn't get the goal that they deserve? Like, who gives a shit? But, but you're protecting your kid from the, like, the lack of fairness being administered by the sideline referee who's 15 years old. You know, it's just like, degree.

It's, it's hard. That reminds me when I was 14 years old, like, I was a very good Little league baseball player. And so when I was 14, couldn't play little League anymore, so I became a, like a, an ump, right? And I, I was too young to be behind the, the plate. And, and I'll never forget this as, as long as I live. I. I was the, like the second base ump, right? And there are a lot of, like, rules in baseball. You know, 14, like, you think, you know, you play Little League, all right, you think you know most rules. All right, well, the infield fly rule, I still don't understand what the infill fly rule is today. And I'll never forget, like, there were runners on like, like first and second, and I, I don't know what the situation was, how meowser was. I. All I know is that there was a pop up in the infield. And I like, I was so confident, so sure it was infield fly. I go infield fly, infield fly, batters out. And at the last second, the coach goes, no, it's not. And the kid looks over the coach, the ball drops and it's just bedlam.

And it's in play.

Like, half the kids think I called it out. So it's an out. And the coach, like, no, run, run, run. Like, like, two, two run score. And I ended up. Ended up, like, losing the game.

Oh, man.

This coach chewed my ass out.

What did he say?

Oh, he chewed me out. What are you.

You're an idiot.

Like, like, you know, at 14, I'm 6 foot 4 already, so I don't look like I'm 14 years old, but. Oh, man, I. You talk about feeling small. I felt small, and so I learned a lot of things. Unless you're completely sure about the rules of a game, just shut up, okay? That's the first rule that I learned. But that story brought me back and gave me just horrible, horrible memories. But, Ravi, I'm gonna flip it on you. Are you a bad parent if you don't become a bad person?

Yeah. Yeah. See, that is a fucking great question. That is a great question, Shane. That's why we pay you the big bucks to be one of the co hosts of this podcast. Like, Yeah, I think so. Honestly. Yes. I think truly, like, if you don't have anything where you're, like, protective instinct doesn't kick in in a way that's, like, irrational. It's probably not enough.

So we should all forgive ourselves. All the parents out there that.

No, no, no, you still need to.

Be, like, yelled at a rapper.

We all. Alex. We all have a little League dad. No, we all have, like, roles in the community, too. But I think there is a. There's a great quote that I heard one time. I forget who said it, but it's like, the decision to have a child is momentous. It is to choose to walk around all day, every day with your heart walking around outside of your body.

Right?

Like, it's like, such an amazing quote of, like, what being a parent actually is. Right? Like, you don't even get to keep your heart. It's, like, gone. It's like they. That's, like, outside of your body. And so, like, of course, like, it's such an incredible, like. Like, again, like, primal thing to, like, protect your kid. So, yeah, I think that if you don't have any of that, if you don't have anything that makes you embarrassed that you've, like, done in the name of protecting your kid. Like, yeah, I think you're a. I honestly, I think you're a bad person then. So. I agree with that, Shane. I think that, like, the. The trick is to make sure that it doesn't happen, you know?

So we talked about this before, you know, Naval Ravikant. Very wise. Sage person. Yeah. You know, lives along those sort of philosophical lines.

Right.

And remind us what, what he says in, in his, one of his Sovereign child. Yeah, sovereign child.

Sovereign child, you're right.

Explain what a sovereign child is and, and is that fit in this equation like at all?

Damn Shane, like you really do listen when I come up with my nonsense. I feel like you're really going back. Do you have like an LLM that's retrieving notes right now and suggesting topics or is this all you, Is this, is this, is this your digital clone?

I'm not just a pretty face, Robbie, just not.

I know, I know. By the way, for all of our listeners, we, we, we occasionally we will get a response from Shane over email that just kind of doesn't seem exactly right. It's a little longer, there's like a little something to it and we find out later that it's the Shane bot that's responding to us, you know, his self created, you know, email response tool. So I'm happy that I still get live Shane and I don't get any Shane butt on text.

You know, this might, this might be. Hey Jen, right now you don't know, you don't know.

This could be my bot.

I could be golfing right now. You don't know.

Shane, I will tell you in all seriousness, you definitely are like a true early adopter on technology stuff. Like I actually think that if a venture capital is invested in each of the companies that you mentioned, the first time you mentioned them, not the 10th time but the first time, I actually think you'd have a pretty decent portfolio. Like I heard a mid Journey like a week before you said something about it and like presumably it is like my job to understand what this thing does and I'm kind of like, I don't know, this is like a retired NBA basketball player who at the time lived in Miami and he's like yeah, I just was using Mid Journey and got to this thing anyway. Sovereign Child. Sovereign child is naval. Naval didn't write this book but there was a book that he liked which was basically this idea. I forget the author but it's sort of like you should kind of like let children, children are much more capable than you think. You should basically let them do like whatever they want and your job is to like house them and it is to kind of not really do much beyond that because a lot of what like parents do is they restrict children from doing these. So for example, the, the example people come up with like well do you think. But if your kid wants to eat ice cream every meal and the person who wrote the book is like, you should let them do that and you should tell them that they might have, you know, health issues, you know, if they do that and, but they, they have to deal with the consequence of that. And then if they have health issues, then you should encourage them and help them, you know, know, with, if they want to go and fix them. And it just like keeps going through this thing. So like, I guess, Shane, the argument against your premise of like you're a bad person if you don't ever have this, like you're a bad person if you don't become a bad person, you know, is what Naval would say is like being this parent of a sovereign child requires a lot of love, right? It requires like getting out of the way and letting them make the mistakes that will teach them the stuff that. You know what I'm saying? There's like a tremendous amount of discipline and love that goes into that. Whereas I think many of us hear that and we're kind of like, wait, what are you talking about? Like that, you know, how do you just like let them go do whatever they want, you know, So I don't know, complicated question.

How would that fly at the Smith household?

I mean, I, I do. It would not fly. I just told, I mean, listen, before we pressed record, I just told you I don't allow my son, my 14 year old who just turned 14 again on mother's Day. This was just a couple days ago. I mean he is, he is so pissed that he doesn't have a Snapchat at this point. Like, apparently he is the only 14 year old on the planet that doesn't have a Snapchat.

And by the way, is it, is, is it called a Snapchat? Like, I just want to make sure I understand if this is like he.

Has the app, you get your account.

I don't think you sound like my mom right now. Like, he doesn't have a Snapchat. Like, I don't think that's how you say it.

He doesn't have Snapchat, but he doesn't have his account. He wants an account. So. No, I mean, I, I don't subscribe to that. I sure as hell wouldn't let my kids just eat ice cream and like, you know, no, do whatever the hell they want. That's not how I was brought up. That's certainly not how my wife and I parent. I do understand though that I think buried in this is some ego as a Parent. Right. Like, and, and I think I really struggle now. And I don't know about you, Shane. Like as they get older, like there's, they do spend less and less time. They're. They are more independent and I think letting them have that independence is hard because you want to hang on to them. Right? Like I want like to your point, your heart walking around, like I don't want to let them out of the house, you know, I don't wanna. And so there is ego buried in that as a parent that as much as I'd like to think how selfless I am, I, I am maybe being selfish at times. Restricting, restricting them. And so that's currently where like I find myself, my son, starting high school next year. Like it's, he, he, it is, he is no longer, you know, our little boy. And that. It's hard, it's definitely hard for my wife and I.

We think in worst case scenarios and maybe that's the problem. You know, just as humans, like we, we think it's either Harvard or they're going to be, you know, just digging in trash cans. Like there's, there's no like median thinking ever, ever. I mean maybe that's, that, that's our human condition. We think in extremes and that's the.

Fear that like, especially for the most important things.

Yes, yes. It's either all or nothing and it's ridiculous. And there's chances are they're going to be right in the middle, you know, on most things.

Right.

And, but we can't see that.

Right.

Which is just fine. You know, Like, I think that also again the ego of it as parents like that you want high achieving kids and you want them to be the best soccer player and the best student in advanced and Harvard. Right. Like there's ego in that as well. Like in your legacy and your, and your parenting style, you know, I think.

Yeah, but, but okay, hold on. So maybe a couple of things. I have many reactions, but one, I think on your point on ego, I think that is so true of like forgetting about the legacy just for a minute because I want to like come back on that. But I think on the ego point of like wanting to control it, wanting to, wanting to feel like you did something, like think about this is the most important thing. Like if, if you aren't like parenting, you know the verb, it's sort of like what, what am I doing? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, and so I have this friend who I really admire and I, she told me one time she's like, she. She has kids, like, six, seven years older than, like, us. And she was like, you know, you think you're molding your children, but what you're going to find at some point is that they'll, like, reveal themselves to you. And that language was, like, so interesting to me of, like, they kind of, like, are who they are, and they're gonna, like, show you who they are as opposed to, like, you think you're, like, you know, working with them and, you know, creating this thing. It's like, more that. It's like, no, no, it's gonna. They're gonna show you what they are. And so I was. That's, like, always in my head. So I do think there's a ton of ego and that, like, we want to feel like we're, like, doing this thing. I do feel like I would sort of have to turn my Indian card back in if I was kind of like, oh, it's totally fine for them to always be middle of the road and everything. Like, I don't think that's just for, like, parental legacy.

You just can't, like. So my point. So you just. You just came back from a big debate weekend, Ravi. And my thought is, there were a lot of. You know, I call them champagne dreams. Every time that I walk into a gym with Zeke, I said, it's a lot of champagne dreams, baby.

You know, the Indian champagne dreams happen at the debate tournament.

A lot of Hindi champagne dreams. All right, like, what percentage of the parents there were just are certain their kids were going to Ivy Leagues or Stanford?

Right?

I mean, a high percentage.

I don't know that I have any friends.

I do not know an Indian parent that did not have Ivy League or Stanford aspirations for the child.

I think Indians are generally a community focused on education. Yes, I would agree with that idea.

Champagne dreams.

Yeah. Champagne dreams. Yeah. It's so funny. It was, like, in a gym, but, like, it was in a gym with, like, folding chairs, you know, with, like, you know, some nerd up on the stage talking about the debate rules, and it's like, yeah, it was in a gym. There were champagne dreams in the gym. I think part of the reason for high expectations for kids is because they will be happier if they fulfill their potential. It's not purely for your own, like, legacy. You know what I'm saying? There is some positive thing for the kid from having high expectations.

Okay. But to go back to, like, being happy in life and what actually makes you happy. Like what? Like, oh, and just two different outcomes here. One, a kid. He goes on to get his PhD in history and he's a.

Okay, great. A lot of education.

He is a seventh grade history teacher, social studies teacher.

He's happy.

He makes an income. He's.

That sounds great.

But he like, versus the college dropout, starts his own company.

Sure.

And like, so I. And whether or not they. That person, the second example, has success or not. But you, like, what are you defining this as?

Sorry, this is the. I'm so happy you asked. Okay, I am not. Listen, I only have one degree. Like, I don't. I. You know.

I know. And we know you've been shamed for it. We know.

But you have more degrees than I do. Okay. You know, so just honorary. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Not honorary. Don't you have a master's also?

I got half a master's.

Yeah. Okay, fine. I don't have half a master's. So right now you're the one with all the education. So anyway, the point though, what I was saying is it's not money. It's not about levels of education. It's not any of that. It is, I think that some expectation for a kid of, we expect you to work hard in something. I don't care what that something is.

Okay.

But I do expect you to work hard at something. To understand.

Work hard or have a passion. And is there a difference?

I don't know. Honestly, you guys tell me if you think there's a difference. I actually think that, like, the work hard, like, do something hard, work at it. And this is based on that premise that you guys have heard me say so many times. Like, earned success is the key to happiness. Like, go find a way to earn some success in something. It doesn't matter actually what it is. But don't. It can't be that you just like, sit around all day not having any ambition in anything. Like, no. Like, there's got to be something that you care about that you're working hard at, that you struggle with and that you ultimately, like, get better at. You know, like, that to me feels like the reason for the high expectations. It's not the result. It's like, go and do something. And the reason. It's. It's kind of that you're arguing against this, Alex, because, like, you. You were the number one pick in the draft. Like, you like, obviously worked. You obviously worked hard.

You.

You did. People talk up. Jim Harbaugh talks about how hard you work. Like, you know, you're an advocate of hard work and you're trying to, like, be cool right now. Like, oh, I don't care. No, get out of here. Like, that is not accurate.

I'm not saying I'm innocent at all. I want my kids to. Yeah, same thing. Like, I guess I hope and dream for the best for them as well. Totally. I just didn't know, you know, here. This was just a little pushback on.

Yeah.

Like, what if your kids choose a different route?

As long as they actually do something, as long as they work, as long as they try, you know, like, what do you think, Shane?

I think that as parents, it all goes back to the same thing. I tell corporations that it is your job to create an environment where you have the fulfillment 5, okay? And so it's the same thing for, for us as parents, okay. We hope and pray that when our kids mature, all right, they like what they do. Financial, I guess, appreciation, okay. It's not about how much money they make, but they want. We all hope that they find a, A profession or do something in life where they feel they're compensated for their energy and their time, okay? Not even, not even, like, money. Like what. What they get out of it. Okay.

Yep.

Cause. All right, we hope our kids feel passionate. That's what you're talking about. Feel passionate, feel strong about something. That they have a purpose in their life, that they're willing to invest energy and get that earned success. We hope that they have an appreciation, a proper appreciation for status, okay? That it may not be attached to a Ferrari, okay. Or Louis Vuitton purse, or maybe it is. I don't know. Maybe that's your value system, and that's fine. But we all hope that we. We establish some sort of value system where they can appropriately measure their own status and be okay with what their status is or not, and work towards a better life and better status. Right? And then lastly, we hope that they can function socially in the world. So we have status, we have money, we have liking, we have cause, and we have social.

Social touch.

I call it touching the people. You can't be a hermit, all right? We don't want our kids to sit at home and play video games all day. We want them to be able to connect, have friends, make the world a better place socially. Right? So, like, that's the same formula that, you know, I tell corporations you got to do to. To. To create a fulfilled worker. It's the same things as parents, right? We have to create those feelings. And I think those are the true aspirations for our kids that when they get of age and we're no, we're not of no use to them or out like that. They have a proper appreciation and an awareness of those five things.

I do think you guys have heard me say this before, but it does, like, come to mind, which is, I told you that Mike Moritz has this whole thing about like, you know, most of what makes you motivated happens before you're 14. Most of your enduring motivation comes from like an event or a set of stuff that happens before you're 14. It is crazy when you think about like our kids ages, which is like, what are the things that are going to be their causes? You know, like these things that you guys are talking about, Right. Like, it sort of means that they kind of either already have it or are developing it, like, whatever.

That's horrifying. That's horrifying.

Is that crazy?

Well, I was just gonna push back. Like, on that same note, my, my oldest son very much wants to be a quarterback. Yeah. And I think he has, I mean, I. I mean, I think he has big aspirations. Right?

Yeah.

And I try very, like, it is a delicate dance for me. Like, do you have a duty as a parent? I'm sure we all feel this with kids that have highest high aspirations. But like, hey, you got to be well rounded. Hey, like, you need to have other interests. Like, you cannot just be this, you know, jock. Like, no, no, you were. You're gonna do a lot. And I push hard, but like, I also don't wanna. I don't want to seem discouraging. Of course. I also don't want to be. And again, even the extra, extra weight of like, if I just show up, if I show up at a football event with him. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, it just, like there's just stuff that comes that's great.

You're gonna love it. You're gonna love it, you know?

And I. I don't know, am I, you know, so do. Should you try to create balance? Like, again, if it does come before 14, that he's got big goals and big dreams, like, is that fine? Let them have them, foster them.

You know, I think what we're talking about is a calling. And we all hope, like our kids find a calling when whatever, that's purpose. That's cause, Right. A calling. A calling is different than what you do every single day. Right. For a longest time, your calling was to be a leader in a quarterback.

Alex.

Alex, right. Your calling, Ravi, was to build, you know, basically a multi, you know, billion dollar company from. From nothing. You were called to that. Right. And you Gave everything you had to that worthy, you know, journey. And we're willing to sacrifice, you know, energy, sleep time, fun for that journey, Right? That's a calling, right? And so, like, yeah, I would love for my kids to have that. All right, that. That would make me feel great that I've. I taught my kids to be able to be exposed enough in the world and say, you know what? Yeah, this is worthy. This is worth my sacrifice. This is worth the pain. And, like. Like, my dad and mom, like, that's what they taught me. They sacrificed everything to give me opportunities. And so that maybe that's why I'm, like, I'm.

So.

My parents had nothing. They didn't have hobbies. They didn't have, you know, they didn't go on vacation. Like, it was all my brothers and sisters, you know, and so, like, I did pick up on that. And, like, their calling was to give us every opportunity to expose us to everything they possibly could in their power so that something hits and they run with it, right? And, you know, my brother graduated with the master, started business, and, you know, my sister is an elementary educator.

And.

And, like, I would like to think, you know, my dad's watching over us, proud of that, and my mom is proud of that, you know, so, like, that's my goal as a parent. Like, find your calling.

Find your calling, Shane, and don't answer it just yet. What do you think your calling is right now? Post basketball. Ravi, how old were you when you think you, like, narrowed in on your calling or knew what it was? And again, like, I. I battle this right now. I don't have a calling. And I would. I would say parenting number one.

Yeah.

And is that the same? Is that the problem? Makes me yell at a ref, at a soccer game.

Arrived full circle.

You know, my calling. And, you know, it's part of my personal mantra. I write every single day to remind myself.

And.

And I didn't always think, this. This is what I came to after I retired and struggled with my purpose, my calling. And, you know, I live to contribute to other people's journeys. I live to challenge myself, and I live to be part of a community that's larger than myself, and that does something great. Okay? And so that takes a lot of forms, and it's my passion to always learn. How can I be better? How can I help people? Right? How can. How can my journey help people? And that's why I never turned down a chance to mentor somebody. Hey, I want to talk to you. Yeah. What do you got? How can I help you, right? And so that was the same thing I did in the basketball court, right? Being the Nostead all star, being a glue guy. Like, it was about, hey, man, how do we win? How can I help you? How can I help you? I didn't really know that at the time. Like, that was. That was who I was. And that's what defined me. Like Michael Lewis defined that. And that helped me sort of say it better than I could, but. But my calling is not like, you know, it sounds cheesy, but, like, I'm. I'm here. I'm here to help. I'm here to help. That. That's my purpose and that's my calling. And so everything is. Is working towards that aim.

Yeah, I think that I. I like that because in a sense, I think when. At least when I hear calling and I'm not sure if anybody else thinks it's like, it doesn't have to be.

A totally here professional.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah. You don't have to get, like, siloed into something your whole life, you know?

You know, Alex, it's. It's so interesting. You asked and, like, I don't. Honestly, until Shane just said that, I don't know that I would have said I've ever had, like, a professional calling.

Right.

And so. And what you said, Shane, I think accurately describes what it was like in terms of, like, for me, you know what I'm saying? Like, that that's true. And I using that. I think it makes sense what you said. But, Alex, like, no, I. I don't even know that I ever feel like I, like, felt like I had a calling. Do you see what I'm saying in the moment? Like, there you asked how old was I? And I'm gonna, like, I don't know.

I'm 43.

And I still don't, you know, have one. I. I felt like I had one. I do think that there's probably two or three, like, actual implications of this. One is. I don't think I'm nearly as, like, good at defining things as Shane is. Like, Shane is good. Like, write it down. This is what I'm purpose. This is what I'm doing. Like, that's just not something I have the discipline of doing. And so it ends up being more like, okay, like, let me try to, like. Let me try to, like, have a good day today. You know, Let me try to, like, do good things and, like, be there for my friends. Be. I am very focused. Like, more time, fewer People is definitely something I think about. Like, you know, I want it to be, you know, our mutual friend Sam. Our mutual friend Sam Hinkey talks about, like, he likes being reliable. He likes being relied upon. Like, I like that. I really do want to be somebody who is reliable and relied upon. And that's, like, something I try to do, but I haven't, like, written it down. And I couldn't articulate a calling or purpose the way Shane could. I do think the second thing. And Shane, you. You and I have talked about this. Now, as we talked about it a bit, I do think that I am, like, squarely in the, like, parenting, being a good dad as, like, purpose calling, being a husband. And I do think Shane has pointed out, I think correctly, that, like, when my kids start to pull away, I will struggle with that. I think that I. I don't think I'm, like, the person yelling at the sideline ref. I think I'm, like, disciplined enough, generally speaking, to not, like, didn't you get.

Ejected or tech teed up at the AAU game? Hold on here. I mean, I don't know if this has made the airwaves yet, but.

Well, it made the airwaves. It made the air. I mean, yeah, I also got into a little stat at our debate tournament last weekend, but. Yeah, see, but I was justified. But I do think that what Shane said is, like, I think I actually. I think the way it's going to manifest is I think that it's going to be very hard for me when the kids don't need me the same way that they need me today. Like, I think I get a lot of identity out of, like, I'm a good dad. I'm like an involved dad. You know what I'm saying? Like, I will struggle when they start to pull away, and that's something I'll lean on you guys for. But, like, if you made me guess it, I think that, like, I get so much identity out of, like, being somebody who's good to my family.

I'd reframe that, Robby. I would look at that as a sign of your kids saying, you know what?

I got.

I got it, Dad. I got it, man. Yeah, you know, hey, you did your job. Yeah, you know, like, that. That was me.

Like, it's a great reframe. It's a great reframe.

When I was 18, I graduated from Country Day. Like, man, I. I wanted to blow that pop stand so quick. I thought I was so ready for the world. There was no, like, I want to I want to get out of Michigan and I went to Duke and, you know, so, like. And that wasn't like a slight of my parents, you know, they loved me and did everything for me, but, like, like, I got you, man.

I got.

You're doing a good job. I got it from here.

It's an amazing reframe, and I'm going to use it separately for you. I think you could have gone to College at, like, 7. From what we hear about you.

I probably would wish I could have.

I really think. I don't know what your parents did, but I think that, like, from what I hear, that's my guess. Seven years old, and I think you'd have been fine, like, just off on your own.

Well, I was ready. It was, you know, like I said, I had a calling and I followed it.

If you could make sure your kids had one trait, just one.

Yep.

What would it be?

And it would be a hundred percent resilience.

Okay.

Never giving up. Never giving up. Never giving up. Never giving up.

And why?

Because everything could be distilled back to that. Okay.

Okay.

And the. With the mindset of, okay, this didn't work. Okay? I can cross that off the list. That doesn't work. Okay, what's next? Right?

A.

You. You'll have an insatiable appetite for learning, right? And you only grow when you learn and. And. And push yourself.

Okay?

And you always will put yourself in a position to fail regardless of what happened, right? You're gonna have some wins, you're have some losses, but you just never stop. You just never stop. And it's. It's like the most important trait to be able to move on from. And I call them macro aggression, macro adversity, and micro adversity. Right? A lot of people, like, they have a bad day and they want to stay in bed the next day, right? Just because they know the coffee spilled and the carrot ran away. Like, no, like your ability to move on to little things and big things is everything, is everything. And every successful person, any autobiography you read, that is the one common trait.

How do you foster that?

I think that you constantly remind them that. Look, did the sun come up today? Do I still love you? Yes and yes. Okay. That's all that matters. All right? Something bad's out. Hey. Sun come up today. Do I love you still? Yep. Dad. Okay, next. Next day, next day, right? And you just, you. You make them realize that errors are not fatal, right? That people are flawed. And that's okay. It's what you learn and what you. What you grow from. And, and, and, and as long as you recognize that and you're. You're one step better than you were yesterday, that's all that matters. That's all that matters. That mom and dad love you. And the sun's going to come up tomorrow, right? And we can handle anything.

What is yours, Alex?

No, I mean, talk about a hard question.

It's a deep, this is a deep. It's like Oprah. Like an Oprah day.

You don't achieve resiliency in your kid by, you know, complaining about offsides calls and balls and strikes.

No, I can tell you that. No, you do not.

Deal with it, you know, 100%.

Talking about referees before a quick story. The best thing, if you, if you want to yell at a referee without sounding like a total D bag, Eric Spoelstra had the best thing he'd ever said to a referee. Okay? Now, you know, NBA, NBA referees are used to getting yelled at by everybody every single night, okay? And this is the only time I've heard a coach yell at a reference and not get teed up by it, okay? Because he doesn't swear, he doesn't cuss, but he questions, like, he questions intent. He will yell at them. You know, hey, Derek, you gotta focus. This is important. People care about this.

Right? That's amazing.

That is the, like, that cuts to the core of every referee, all right? To infer that, like, oh, I'm not trying, I'm not trying to do my best. I don't think this is important too.

Right.

And you can never get teed up for that. All right? A ref could never, you know, throw you out of the game for saying, hey, Rev, you gotta focus, man.

This is important.

We care about this. We care about this. So that's an aside. So. No, not for you parents out there listening. That's the best thing you can say to a ref if you want to yell at them and not cuss.

And I've been wondering this, Shane, and again, not to distract us from the topic, but with the NBA playoffs going on, and I really like these playoffs that I feel like the refs have been letting guys play and there's been, I play defense especially, and there's been really, it's been really physical.

Yep.

But I can't help. But when I, you know, watching and you get some up closes the way players talk to NBA refs.

Yeah.

Like, it seems crazy. Like, no, heck no. You cannot talk to a ref like that. And it, like, the other end is like, certainly baseball. Right? Like, how Many guys have been tossed for, like, I mean, arguing a ball in a strike at the plate and not even. Not even being very animated and get tossed. Right. Like, I. It looks like NBA basketball players are literally just like embassy reps. And they're okay with it. It's crazy.

They're not okay with it. But, like, it's not a good look. Not a good look.

No, no. In some ways, I actually don't mind it because again, the 80 game season, they're, they're. They. Those are relationships. They know each other well. It does mean a lot to both of them. And I like that the refs aren't so, like, hard and fast. They're like, this is your job. You're trying hard. If you're complaining about mine, like, I'm gonna give you a little slack and not just like, tee you up on any. Any little thing. But it does seem different than every other sport.

Yeah. I also think you, like, listen, I, I think, I think that you are right that refs shouldn't have the quick, like, you can't talk to me and I'm the authority.

Fine.

That is different than to your point, some of the things where people are carrying on, you know, and mfing this guy, like, there is like some human interaction that, you know, should still govern how you can talk to somebody. And I agree with you.

You catch more bees with honey than. Right? I mean, come on.

Yeah, I like this bolster one. Okay. Alex.

Yeah. What is the quality? I hope.

Yes.

The one.

One quality.

I hope you only get one.

I think on the flip one. And then this is. I've been thinking so much about this since we talked to Harbaugh, like, so much about this. On what. What if you could boil down what he's about, right? Not just, like, in life and not just coaching. I. The number one thing that I come away with is gratitude and gratefulness and, like, can you be grateful for what you have? Like, and that can be anything. Again, like, the. The twist of when he goes and visits his childhood home, right? And he doesn't realize he's remembering how small it is, right? And he's an adult now, and he's like, it is the tiniest little freaking house. And he's telling us the story about who's got it better than us. And then next to it, though, the field where he used to play baseball is this giant house now, right? And him saying, well, obviously somebody has it better than us, right? Like. And then at the same point, though, he's flipping back and, well, I wanted to be a baseball player when I was seven years old. I wanted to play for the Yankees and realizing that, like. But I did have a nice field and I did have a new glove and that actually, you know, the kids in the Dominican growing up with less had it better than me.

Right?

Like, if you reframe that and again, like, so I guess I would, I would love. And I think I aspire in myself. But yeah, if my kids could be grateful.

Ravi, how about you?

You know, it was a bit of a trick because I have thought about this a lot prior to today. And so I have my answer, which is for me, it would be agency. Like I and I, Shane, for a similar reason to you, I think that you can kind of like get everything back to this trait, you know. So I think it's a little bit, you know, wide reaching, but like, I think this idea of like, I'm the captain of my own ship, I am responsible for my happiness, I am responsible for my actions. I can do things. I don't need to wait for permission. I think so much of that is just like, I, I'm responsible for my attitude, you know, Like, I think that it encompasses so much and ultimately like, brings the responsibility back to the person of like, what are you going to do about it? And you are enough to do something about it. Like, you just like, let's. And to me, it really addresses something that I fear so much for people I love of, like having a victim mentality. Like this stuff, like, happens to you because I think it, like, it creates so many situations where you're not happy, you're not content, you're not grateful, you're not resilient versus, like, no, like, cool. Like, I'm the. To me, I'm the captain of my own ship. Like, yeah, I don't know if it's right, but I have felt that for a while that like, agency would be the thing.

Would you subscribe to the Sovereign Child? Just, you know, is.

Is agency tied to expectation? Are you okay? Let's say, you know, Savin has high cholesterol.

Okay, yeah.

He's like, you know what? Let's have high, high cholesterol. And you're like, no, no, no. If you, if you take statins, if you exercise, you change your diet. Like, he's like, no, like, I'm. I'm gonna, you know, it's my life.

And, you know, I got it, you.

Know, and I'm okay with that. And I'm the captain of my ship and it's my decision and it's a suboptimal total decision.

That's okay. That's okay.

That's okay. Okay.

Here's what's not okay in my, in the agency framework, right? Oh, I have high cholesterol because you and mom are Indian and you know nothing and you know, it just happened to me and it's like more, sorry. All that might be true, but you haven't done shit about it. Like, you haven't even tried to get rid of it. So the thing that I want to avoid is the like, woe is me. This happened to me. And I have nothing to do if somebody says, again, like, it's easier on something to your point, like, not like life and death, but like suboptimal, like, yeah, yeah, like I'm willing to accept the consequences. I don't want to do something on that. Like, sure, that's totally fine with me. And like, you know, I think there are plenty of things where I don't think I've like optimized something at all. Right. Like I, I, I, I don't think, I mean, I don't have like a incredible diet, you know what I'm saying? Like, I, I eat all sorts of stuff that I probably shouldn't eat and I recognize that that will cause some level of health consequence that's different than if I was like really disciplined. But I'm like, yeah, cool. Like I'd ra. I'm cool with this trade off. I think that that's okay. Yeah, so I'm okay with that. But I like both of your guys's too, of like they, they all can hearken back to. Like they can be sort of all encompassing. The resilience can be all encompassing of like you always have hope that you can get better if you're like, I'm just going to keep going. Right? Yeah, you kind of at the core, what you really want is to be grateful for what you got, you know, and so all of them, this is why one thing is really hard. All of them have like, good explanations for them.

Do you think you, you know, for both of you, do you think you learned those lessons before you turned 15 and that was a, that's a core component of who you are, or did you learn that through the trials and tribulations of life?

What do you think?

The Anti Moritz theorem?

Totally.

I think, I think the most important.

Thing that we think we want our kids to have. Did you learn that before he was 15? So does that matter?

The reason that I like in some ways endured hardships and Tough years and came back after my leg and like, the stubbornness. I don't think it's a coincidence that the number one phrase I heard through my childhood was get tough.

Huh?

Like, I don't think that that's a coincidence. I just, again, like, you know, pretty boy from San Diego. Like, I don't think that that, like, you know, again, that's all that was like a challenge. It was just the way of life. Anytime I complained, anytime anything happened, that was the phrase that I heard. So I do think that that happened early on in, in my life. And my kid, I, I again, so for mine, are you asking about gratefulness? Yeah.

Gratitude. Was gratitude a core component of the Smith household.

My parents very much tried to instill, I think, how good we had it. I mean, again, I grew up in a middle class family. My dad longtime educator. My mom worked for the county San Diego. So like, But I grew up thinking like we had everything right. I never, I never wanted. But my dad, dude, like, so frugal. Oh my God. Frugal. And, but like, as a kid. No, your kids are selfish. I was selfish. No, again, I just talked about this. Like, hell no. I did not have gratitude. Yeah, of course, A long time. And I think you got to see the world and like the big picture and how lucky you are and, and not that same time, like, the hell no. I've, you know, I've thrown pity parties for myself, you know.

Robbie, how about you? Did your parents talk about agency or something? Like, you know, you know, agency. What agency? In other terms.

You know, Shane, I, I, I don't know. I mean, I was trying to think about the answer to this as you were talking and I was kind of.

Like, or, or did they live it?

Yeah, I was like, my parents lived it. They didn't. Yeah. See, this is the answer I was thinking of. You just took it out. The words out of my mouth. It was, it was what you said. It's the lessons you learn when they're not trying to teach you something. You know, like, I saw that my parents valued and respected self sufficiency. You know, like I, I saw that whether or not they said it. My dad would say it, sure. But it wasn't like the only thing, you know, but I could tell that they respected people who kind of took responsibility.

Yep.

You know, and what's so interesting on this thing is like that for sure was there throughout my life in terms of them behaving like that. But I wasn't like that all the time. You know what I'M saying like some of this shows up later and it shows up later when you have your own moments of like, well, what do you want to do? What do you want to be about? You know, like, I think that. But that was not something. It's not like I was like this, you know, all the time. Like my mom to this day talks about how there's like parts of me that are not surprising at all and there are parts of me that are surprising to her, you know, from when I was a kid. And so I think that yes, it was like embedded in there, but it took a while to like show up, you know. But it is the Shane Battier lesson of the, like the things I learned when they weren't trying to teach me something. Much more so than like words that said this is important.

And I find that super interesting that it, like it takes us to be 40 year old men, fathers of, of multiple kids to be able to articulate that. Right? Yeah. And yeah. Would our journeys have been different if we've been able to have the definition of that earlier? Right. But like, I guess that's the definition of getting old and being. Getting wiser. Right?

Even young. 41 now, you know?

Yeah, yeah, you know?

Yeah, that's right.

I, I think Shane, though, what you just said, it's like, Alex, you talk about being selfish as a kid. I think I was extremely selfish until we had kids. I think there was like a massive difference that happened not just with my own kids, but with my parents when we had kids. Because of course, like with the kids it's like you're gonna do stuff for them and it's like so, like there. But the other thing that happens, I was like, oh my God, somebody did this for me. I could not like that. It was so crazy. And I, and I felt so terrible for like the 10 years between college and having kids where I was like, God, I've been such a. You know what I'm saying? Like, I haven't acted like I need to see them as frequently as I should, you know, Like I just. And then the kids come and you need help. But also it's like, oh my God, like I can't believe I've been like so. Distance the right word. But like so not thinking about these people as much as I should, you know?

Yeah. But again like you like your parents were okay with that because they taught you agency. That's the whole point. Like.

Yes, exactly.

Like, I'm sure they're worried about you, you know, as all parents are. But like Also, like, proud of you that you were like, okay, a. But like, he's out there and he's doing it. He's working for KKR and like, he could pay the bills. Like, we've done our job, right? So.

Yes.

Don't be, don't be so hard on yourself.

Yeah, Rajen definitely was calling 100. He was definitely calling his parents.

Dude, dude, you're going to love this. You're going to love this. Okay, so we had a few. A few friends threw a surprise party for their friend for a milestone birthday this weekend. Okay. And the party was at our house and Alex was there, you know, and it was like, just like some people in Woodside in our community. Great. My parents are in town and so they happen to like be there and they meet some friends who like, they've spent time with before, but like, they spend more time with them this time. And we're sitting at dinner and a couple of these friends, we were with them at Thanksgiving last year and Thanksgiving last year we were going with friends to Cabo. Cool. My brother and sister in law, like, hey, do you guys want to hang out for Thanksgiving? We're actually, we have plans. We're going to Cabo with some friends and somehow it's like, why don't we come too? I'm like, okay, cool. So it's like, like, like a few Woodside families and like my brother and sister in law, so like, they don't know anybody and like their kids, whatever. And dude, you would not believe the amount of fucking time that these people go to the lengths of telling my parents how great my brother and my sister in law are at this party. Like, just. Yeah, you would believe it just the whole time. Oh my God. You know Rajan and Priya, oh, they're so this. Oh, their daughters are so this. Oh, they're so this. And I was like, guys, enough. Enough of this. I mean, like, I'm at my own house throwing a surprise party for somebody and all anybody wants to talk about is my brother and how great he is to my parents. And I was like, I can never escape this. I'm 43 years old. How we're still here, you know, the same shit.

Alex, I think that we need to have Rajan on the show as, as a glue guy. Guess he's friendly. He's a friend of the show, friend of both of us. We played golf, you know, just, just, you know, I feel there needs to be some things that are just aired out. Let the world know, you know, and.

Clearly Glue guy clearly he has shaped his little brother, right? I mean he has had a profound impact on this glue guy. I mean that's a great idea.

I can't wait. You guys are right.

I mean I will say Rajan has amazing agency.

I will say that he has amazing agency. He has amazing resilience. He's got amazing gratitude. You know, he's gone he's pretty parents.

Did a hell of a job. Hell of a job.

He did a hell of a job. You know, if I wasn't dude he's funny, charismatic he's handsome. He's better golfer he's a great golfer which is really the thing that hurts the most, I think. You know, like and the worst part about it is he's so nice, you can't even be mad. Such a good dude.

He is a good dude.

See it all it all impacts us. SHANE Before I met my brother when I was before I was 14.

Sam.