What Makes The Perfect Team? - [Glue Guys, EP.25]

Early in my career, I'd spend hours alone in the film room thinking I was being productive. But the truth was I had no idea what I was doing. I was just going through the motions. That's what finance leaders tell me. They're frustrated because they waste hours manually tracking expenses and reconciling statements when they should be focusing on driving their business forward. Be honest with me, how much of your time is spent on high value work? For many finance teams it's less than 20%. But you can change that right now with Ramp. Ramp is a free corporate card that handles all the tedious financial operations automatically so your finance team can focus on what actually moves the needle. One CFO told me they cut their month end close from five days to one. It's no surprise over 25,000 businesses trust ramp, including Shopify, CBRE and Boys and Girls Club of America. Don't waste any more time going through the motions. Check out ramp@ramp.com GG and for glue guys listeners, Ramp is offering metal cards for the next 30 days. Just go to ramp.com gigi cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.

Stop and say. Look around. This has been such a special year. Just take a look at your brother. This is the last time you're ever going to take the court with them. And all of a sudden we're about to go play the biggest game of the year. We're all crying, literally crying before the game. This topic of favorite teams, best teams occurred to me last week. I'm, I'm actually writing my book, writing my first book. Oh yeah, that'll be in the future. But what's the name of the book?

Shane, did you just drop it?

It's working. Working title. Working title.

Okay, okay, okay.

This is 26.

So we got, we got a whole year. We got a whole year. So. But breaking news, pen to paper, we have some stuff in the can with my collaborator Andrew. Her and so spent a few days together just, just talking about teams and my, my partner has a military background and obviously my professional basketball background and just, just waxing and on, on, on teams and what makes a great team and like what are your favorite teams? And so point I, I thought about when we started thinking about teams is like you're in so many teams. Like you're, you're in teams within teams within teams. Totally right. And like no one ever talks about it and you know, just in your professional life, you know you have your department, you have your division, you may have your, your client team, you have your organizational team, you have your company wide team, you have, you know, there's like, you know, 10, 20, 30 boards or teams within companies. Then you have your family team, you have a community team, you have the little league team. You may coach, you know, you know, you have teams upon teams, teams upon teams.

Right.

It's, it's like, it's probably like the most human experience that we have that no one talks about.

Right? Totally.

And you know, unless you go to, you know, get your MBA and take a, a leadership class or, or organizational psychology class or you're thinking about, you know, how, how to move large groups of people. Like the most human aspect of our existence, being part of a team. There's like no like real formal education for it. And I'm like, this is like the craziest, the craziest stuff.

Until the book, until the book comes out.

Yeah, well, exactly.

Yeah.

Hopefully this, you know, helps us, you know, win the Nobel Prize one day or at least hit the, the bestseller list.

Well, we'll. Nick, we should, we shouldn't negotiate the glue guys cut of the equity here, but we'll just follow up Shane, separately on that because, you know, it seems like something that, you know, this is a team effort that, that you know, is going to be contributing to this book.

You're one of the teams within the teams. Within the team. Within the team. Yeah. Within the team.

That's right, baby. That's right.

The residuals shrink. Every team within a team that it goes down, Robbie, as you know, as you know, I do know. So. But everything's negotiable. Thank you. So let's, let's, let's, let's, let's push out this book. But you know, I would love to have a discussion today just hearing about your favorite teams and not necessarily the business or football teams you, you've been on, Alex, but just like teams in general and just love it to hear what makes them your favorite teams. You know, do, do your favorite team share similar aspects to them? Are there other teams you appreciate after you leave them?

Right.

So I think that I hope our listeners listen and say, you know, yeah, I am on a lot of teams and like I haven't thought about how to be the best team that I can be. So I would like to start with you, Robbie. Well, like when I pose this question, who is, what is the favorite, what's your most favorite team that you've ever been a part of in your, in your 41 years of life?

43. 43. Getting old. Getting old by the way before we.

Start is, I mean, because family, that's just all be very clear, family's going to be up there for all of us. Honestly, I don't know if we all wanted to. You know, I just.

Yeah, you're. You're trying to avoid us. Just like being nice to our wives and our parents on this.

I mean, let's talk about them. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. Why don't we start that. Why don't we start the episode? Let's just get out of the way. All right. Obviously.

Yeah.

Just for the avoidance.

Elizabeth, Heidi, you know, our favorite teammates of all time.

Elizabeth, Heidi, best teammates of all time. I always tell the kids, I don't have a favorite amongst the three of you, but I definitely love your mother more than I love all of you. And I think that. That I picked that up from Carl and I think that's the right way to talk about it. You know, there is somebody at the.

Top of the list that's like the one team you can choose.

Right.

And you choose to add members to.

Oh, totally.

Unless.

Unless, you know, even as coo, you know, you're allowing other people to pick part.

Oh, for sure. No, no, I'm saying, so, like, the only family member you ever choose, that's a crazy thing like that the reason that teammate makes sense to be the best one is, like, it is literally the only family member you ever choose. Everyone else is given to you or created. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's. That's a. That's an interesting thing. All right. Yeah. So, Shane, I love this idea. As you know, I think it. One of the original insights that you gave us on this entire thing was like, nobody looks for teammateship, but everybody looks for leadership when they Google things, right? And so just the idea of, like. No, no, no. Like, what, what is it? My favorite team, work wise, Instacart. But. But I think that the teams within the teams within the teams that you've mentioned, that stuff is really unique and fun. I think that, like, talk about that.

Especially from, you know, being the newbie to becoming cfo, coo.

This is actually. Yeah, you're so right. There's so many layers within this. That's fun. So I remember, so Instacart, when I got there, had had this off site like a few weeks before, maybe a few months before I got there. Okay. And they had made, like, this sweatshirt, this swag that they had. They just like, cool hoodie with, like a little carrot on it. I'll wear it one week It's a great. It's a great sweatshirt anyway, but it was given out before I was there. And, you know, generally the way that these things work is sort of like, if you go to the event, you get the thing. If you're not there, you're not there. And it's like a little bit of a mark of, like, were you there at this thing? But I just thought this thing was so cool. And I saw all these, like, OGs wearing it, you know, And I was like, man, I want to get one of those, you know? And so I. You know, the guy who, like, made it, I was like, hey, Zane. This is the guy's name. Great guy. Like, hey, man, can I. Can I get one of those? And he was like, no, you can't. And I was like.

What'S your role? What's your role?

At this point, I was a cfo.

Oh, my gosh.

And. And I was like, well, why not, man? And, you know, Zayn, like, Pakistani guy, I thought that maybe, you know, I thought that, you know, he might have a little affinity for me, you know, as a fellow. Fellow South Asian. But he was like, no, you can't. And the real thing I'd asked him for is, like, I don't just want a regular one. I'd seen, like, one that they had made that they hadn't actually put out because they decided not to have this be the theme. But the original theme for the offset was started from the bottom, right? Like the. The Drake song. And I think they thought it was, like, too on the nose to be like. Because it implies you reach the top or whatever, right? So anyway, I was like, but I want one of those. I want the starter from the bottom one. And he's like, you definitely can't get one of those. And I was like, well, why not? And he's like, because you started from the top. Like, you didn't.

You.

You weren't here when we were at the very bottom. And I was like, oh, man. Like. But he was so right, like, of, like, not the top thing, but just like, you are here, man. Like, you.

You.

No, no, no.

That.

That. You got to earn this. You gotta. You wanna wear the swag. You gotta be here for when we have the swag and all this stuff. And so the reason I always say that it's my favorite team machine was that it took something to enter into it. It wasn't just. You couldn't just walk in the door and be a part of it. You had to, like, contribute. You had to. You had to do it. And so I remember this, like, crazy pride whenever I would get, like, Instacart swag, because it was like, oh, no. Like, they only give it to you if you really are here for it, if you really earn it. You know what I'm saying? And so to this day, when I wear this stuff, like, I have my backpack right here. That's an Instacart backpack with the carrots in it. You know, like, you can see it on the video. Like, But I'm like, yeah. Like. And people like, oh, can I get one of those?

I'm like, nope.

Like, doesn't exist anymore, but I have mine. And I think that. So. So one of the aspects, I think, of teams that are the great ones is you got to do something to be a part of it. It's not just, like, bestowed. You got to earn it. And earned.

Earned inclusion. Earned.

I like that. Earned inclusion. Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. And I wouldn't use those words, but.

It'S that they have a high trust bar.

Yeah.

Like, those teams.

Yeah. And like, some high standard. And everybody, like, in this case, Zane, who is a guy in our design team, was like, living the standard in the first place. And he wasn't like, oh, I don't care about. He didn't care about the title. He was just like, no, man. Like, you get that. You get the swag when. When. When we have swag at an event that you're at. And I always thought that that was just kind of cool. And, like, there's so many different teams within the teams within the teams at various places. But, like, I don't know. That's one example that came to mind. I think that aspect of earned inclusion is cool.

How about you, Alex? What comes to mind? What comes to mind to you? First off, man, I love this team. I love it. You know, and be fair, it's not the best team. All right? Instacart was the best team because they, you know, they went to the top. Well, like, yes, this could be the team.

It's not because it was the best, Right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

A couple of things just to follow up on Ravi's story. First of all, the hoodie. The hoodie, the carrot hoodie is exactly how I feel about my Hotmail email.

Okay?

Like, you can't just get them anymore. You had to be alive back then. Okay. It's like a badge of honor now. And you guys can give me about it. But you know what.

What did you have to do to get earned inclusion to get A hotmail address, whatever.

Anyway, just had to get that out there. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sensitive about it at all, so.

No, and the nice thing about it is it shows that you've been a tech luminary for a long time.

Yep, that's damn right.

Yeah.

I mean I think for me like when you put this out, Shane, it was you immediately for all of us, like jump to the, to the, the measurement. Right. Like the output, like well, championships, the good teams. Right. Like that's the great team. And so what are the teams that accomplish something and we've obviously talked a lot about earned success and how fulfilling it is, especially as a team. And so you know, it's funny, I played for 16 years, I never won a Super bowl. So like I'm like, do I just discount 16 years of phenomenal teams and teammates? You know and I guess like to me again it' just like the measurement and like what, what is important and you know when you say like certainly a favorite team or a team I'm, I'm proud of. And then I also like. It's funny, I never thought of it this way but when you mentioned the teams within teams, like I, I inherently go to the QB room because by far my best years playing. When it comes to favorite, my most favorite years or when I had the best QB rooms.

What year is that?

And I just mean the best teammates. Yeah. Yeah.

Like when you think about what's the best cubic room you spent time in, I could just.

I can. Funny it was towards the end of my time in, in San Francisco. Sean Hill, one of my all time favorite teammates was with him for a bunch of years in San Fran. And then Kansas City had great QB rooms. Chase Daniel was an amazing backup with me for a long time. Tyler Bray, Nick Foles and Patrick. I honestly had that last year in Kansas City was maybe the most fun I had with, with my replacement, you know, looming over my shoulder. Looming over my shoulder. You know, Kyle Allen was another great, you know, guy I played with that I really remember well and those. It just makes it your team within your team. Like I looked forward to going to work every day.

Well, that sounds the guys you spend so much time with, what made it so good? What made you look forward to it? Alex? Like if.

Yeah, like.

Yeah, last year in Kansas City just as the example I think at the.

Core of it, right, like what are you guys talking about?

You guys talking about coverages? You talk about players, you talk like, like so like bring us into the quarterback room.

We do that stuff. Yeah, we do the quarterback stuff, right? Like we spend hours and hours and hours watching film and we had a, the group text, just like our glue guys text and it's like every Sunday night after the game, regardless, one of the young guys presumably would text. Tyler Bray would be like what time are we going tomorrow? Right? Because I got to say as the vet, as the vet you got to set the time. And I like based off whatever my kids had going, you know, hey, we're going at 9am and you'd come in and we were lifting together, we're eating together, we're doing QB school together which is like this rehab program where we were going to go watch it. We were going to go up and watch the game the day before and then we were going to watch flip it forward and watch two games of the next week's opponent. Like and, and then every day had its own schedule, like its own heartbeat, right? Like Tuesday had its own schedule again. And we just, you did everything together and that was the expectation that Andy Reid set, you know that like Matt Nagy had set there. And I loved it because like doing it sucks to do all that stuff by yourself, right? Doing hard stuff requires such a commitment from, and sacrifice from a time standpoint and to be do. If I had to do that all by myself, yeah like it wouldn't. I, I wouldn't have loved it. I actually don't even like I probably wouldn't have played as long but then going in and doing it together, it was amazing. And I think to have a culture where all those guys were ballers, man, all those guys could play like the margin, the margin between a third string quarterback and a start. Like it's funny like from a talent standpoint they're unbelievable. And those guys all trying to reach their potential and but like as was I but I think the ability to like put the selfishness aside, right? Like you're not buying into the fallacy that like especially a quarterback because quarterback's different. Only one quarterback can play, right? Like if you're in the running back room, a lot of those running back, hey, you're the third down back, hey, you're the, the pass protection back. Like they all have a role receivers, they all play right. Like quarterbacks, the one unique position in football, like there's only one guy. Like you don't share, you don't split time. Um, and so unique. And I've also on the, on the flip side of this, I've had a lot of quarterback rooms that were Dysfunctional, where you don't trust. You didn't work together, you couldn't trust the guy next to you and not. It was uncomfortable. You know, you didn't love. You didn't love coming to work in those days. And I think it's funny when I. People ask me all the time, like my teammates that I have close relationships with that I like at this point, now that I'm retired. And so many of them I name are QBs, right? And it's like they find that funny, I think.

But yeah, that is interesting.

So, like, talk about. I love the ideas of just teams, then teams. So you have this awesome dynamic in the QB room and all of a sudden now you have, you know, a whole offense meeting, right? So now, like, like, how do you take that team? Because the dynamic is totally different, right? You guys are joking. You're intimate. You know, there's kids names and you're going into the offense offensive room and, you know, you get a brand new guard you don't know the name of and. And all these. And so like, talk about, like going from there to like the. The offensive meeting. Yeah.

Then to the team meeting like before he gets there. The only thing is, you might. You got to find right now, Alex, because you're pumping Kirkland products on this pod. They're not a sponsor. I see a Kirkland bottle that you're drinking out of, and I'm just saying, like, I don't know, like, if Kirkland wants to get airtime, they. They got to pay. I see brother Badier showing the glue guys logo and meanwhile, that might be a fine.

No free rides.

That's right. All right, so the offensive team, you.

Know, the O line has their own culture. O linemen are funny. They're a funny breed of people. Like, they're just, you know, and then when they come in the room, they bring their culture and they're big, obviously. Just big numbers, but big people, right? There's like 12 of them. They outnumber everybody, you know, and then whiteouts are kind of funny. They got their own thing going. They come in running backs, like tight ends, you know, and then it's obviously that. That's like the beauty. You know, you stir all that up in the meeting room. And I'm not. I haven't even mentioned, you know, defense and special teams. And I think that's obviously the beauty of football and how big the team is and the marriage of all that stuff and the differences. And that also is part of this, right? Like, you love those, right? You Love coming in. And again, we, we were mentioning before off air, like, the great teams, the best teams, they make fun of each other, they rib each other, they gamble, they bet with each other. Like, it's just, you know, nothing's, you know, you can't be sensitive. No, no thin skin on the best teams and like that. Those definitely jump out to me. But yeah, again, I guess I went back to. To measurement and I get. And I think, you know, because I accomplished a lot in college. I accomplished a lot in. In Reggie. Accomplished a lot in high school, you know, but professionally, there's still some teams I'm very proud of from all three of the. My teams that my, My. My. My organizations that I played for. Certainly I'm really proud of like the early draft picks at the Niners that I was with that. We just battled through so much dysfunction. We went to the worst team in football and like Frank Gore and Joe Staley and Vernon Davis and Patrick Willis and Delaney Walker and like, just fought through.

We.

You didn't even know you're a young player in the league. You don't even know what it's supposed to look like. And you just fought through so much dysfunction and just stayed at it. And I think most of the time those teams get torn apart and dismantled. Right. And rebuilds. And the core of that team stuck it out for a long time and finally was able to find success.

Shane, there's two things. You know, how you did the earned inclusion thing, you, like, put words against what I was saying. To me, there's two things that I took from what Alex said. One was like, fun. Like when he talked about looking forward to going to work. Like, some of that has got to be that in the QB room, they're messing around with each other. They're. They're having fun. Like, there's some.

Yeah, I guess I, I kind of skipped over that. Yes. Like, that. Like you asked what we're doing and certainly it's filled up with stuff. Right. Like the things we needed to accomplish. But the vast majority of that is like, again, just hanging and.

Yeah.

You know, like enjoying the process. You, you can't enjoy that process of a Monday morning after a loss. You feel like crap getting out of bed, you're bruised up. You got. But you know, you got to come in and go do it with your buddies. Like, it just. It means that much more. Right. And. And again, it makes it bearable that rather than to do it on your own.

And then the other thing you said, I think from like the early Draft picks is like, going through something hard together. I think that's another aspect I think, you know, of, like. I don't know, maybe. Maybe not for all teams. I don't know. But I. But I think that I would imagine that for the teams within, the teams that end up being, you know, our favorites, they. I don't know, there's some shared obstacle, something, you know, I didn't have it as good as Brother Maddie.

Yeah, it was a lot of endurance.

Yeah.

Just. And again, I think, like, stick with itness.

Yeah.

It's rare. As for a group, a core of a team.

What about you, Shane?

You know, I was thinking about this, and look, I've been part of so many great teams. Holy mackerel. I've won a lot of games. I've won a lot of games in my career, in my basketball career.

It's like picking your favorite child.

It is.

And, you know, the easy answer is, like, Miami or Duke, whatever. But, like, I think about Detroit Country Day, 1995. Okay. My high school was very competitive high school, both academically, athletically. My freshman year, we had a very good team. All right. And I was all state player. And I was young, though. I mean, I was super, super young. Still six, eight. And I deferred to the seniors, and we actually got upset in the first game of the playoffs against Oak Park. And I was so hurt, my mom allowed me to stay home from school the next day. I was embarrassed. I just was embarrassed that we lost to Oak Park. Oak park was. We were the number one team in the state. They were probably number three. So it wasn't like a huge upset, but it was an upset. So we came back the next year and some of the seniors had left, and I was a year older. And the senior leadership, now, it was their time. We had great freshmen coming in and, like, it was the first team I'd been on where it was like, it was the perfect team. It was the perfect team. We lost one game in the regular season to Battle Creek Central. And, you know, I played with both of Chris Weber's younger brothers. So Jason Weber was one of our senior captains. Unbelievable guy. He was my. My mate in the. In the front court. And then his youngest brother, David, was a freshman, you know, so, like, we had, like, five, six guys played Division 1 basketball. But what made that was so cool was the competition, like, from 1 to 15, and we had, you know, like, we had guys who played, who excelled in other sports, who play basketball to keep in shape. You know, I'm thinking of The Emsley twins, Emslin twins were all state football players, you know, come from the east side of Detroit, just, like, really tough, like, good dudes. And they would give me hell. They would give Jason Weber hell. And, like, every day was a battle. Our senior point guard, Jimmy sp, for played in American. You just this tough white kid, you know, and. And just competed. Everyone competed every single day. And there was no ego. And we rolled teams, and everybody played, and we were happy for each other. And it was for the first time, I'm like, man, okay, this. This is what. This is what? Peak teammate, ship and meet a Hall of Fame coach. And I'll never forget that we knew. My question. My next question for you is, like, how do you know you're part of something special? Was the minutes before the state Championship game, we're playing East Grand Rapids in the Breslin center at Michigan State, and we're favorites to beat East Grand Rapids that game. But Coach Keener, you know, to stop and say, hey, look around, like, this has been such a special year. Just take a look at your brother. This is the last time you're ever going to take the court with them. And all of a sudden, we're about to go play the biggest game of the year. We're all crying, literally crying before the game, and we're like, we got to go, man. We got to win the state championship. And it's just like an amazing, amazing part of any team journey. You know, it's special when the end brings you tears, whether you win or lose, right? And that's. That's so special, and it's so rare. And, like, that is all we could hope for in any of our teams, that when it gets to the end, you know, whether you reach your goals, whether you fall short, you're like, man, man, that. That was different, and that was unique, and that was unlike anything I've been a part of. And so that was having that experience, like, that set the tone for the rest of the team. The great teams that I played, and I had teams where I cried before the last game with those teams as well. That was the first time. It's like your first girlfriend. So, like, when did you.

When did you.

When did you know you're part of something special? You know, was it after you left Instacart? You're like, man, that was really freaking good, you know? Or is it. Was that after, like, week eight, you know, after a game in Cleveland? Alex is like, man, this quarterback room is all like. Like, when. When do you know you're part of, like, a special team that's unique that you should really, really lock in and enjoy.

I think. Yeah, man. That's such a good anecdote, Shane. That's such a good. That's such a good, like, metric. And it appeals to my nerd side that we have a metric for how, you know, you're on a good team. I'm very happy about that. I think the first thing that's the inkling of it is Alex's point of you look forward to going to it, you look forward to being. Joining it. Like, just that feeling of like, you know, I'm envisioning you, Alex, like getting beat up in a football game on a Sunday and, you know, whatever, getting sacked, you know, and like, just kind of like getting. Have a hard time getting on a bid and then looking forward to going to work. Like, that's a great metric, you know. And so, you know, one version of that for me, Shane, at Instacart was like, you know, this story. I don't know if this is going to endear me or not, but when I was at KKR before Instacart, like in Menlo Park, I mean, it's good living. Like, it's. It's good living. The job is very hard. But, like, you know, George Roberts is there and, you know, there's a chef. It's like an amazing. You are treated so well, right? You were treated so well. And so, I mean, I show up and there'd be this beautiful breakfast there for you made by a chef that like, you know, George has hired. And so, like, in my. The office is eight minutes from my house. So that's like what I had. And I went to Instagram. Instagram's hour away. I was driving in traffic to San Francisco. And like, you know, we're a startup that burning all this money. Like, there's no. No chef making you a breakfast. And I would warm up this like, Jimmy dean sausage for 45 seconds before I'd leave. Like, you know, the ready made Jimmy Dean, you know, sausage, egg, sausage McMuffins. And I'd be eating it tasted like shit. And I'd be eating it while I'm driving to work. But I was happy, you know, I was like, I can't wait to get in with these people. I can't wait to get into it. I would get in early and the engineers would start late, so I would, like, have stuff to do. So, like, you know, when everyone else came in, I was like, all right, here's what we're going to get after. And I just remember looking forward to an hour drive in traffic, you know what I'm saying? Like, eating this Jimmy Dean sausage because I love the team. So I think the first thing was just like, no, man, I don't care. I don't care about the commute, I don't care about the food. I care that I'm gonna go. I'm looking forward to this. So that was, I think one metric. And then the second thing was, you know, inside of Instacart, you know, you said teams within teams. Like you guys heard me talk about Sagar and Will, right? These are two guys that I worked with, you know, you know, when I was there, along with everyone who I worked with. I mean, that team was amazing. But those two guys, like, they would be in my like, little. I tore my Achilles tendon. I remember texting you, Shane. At one point I just had like a normal desk, but then I tore my Achilles, you know, when I turned 35. So I was like, you know, a year into Instacart. And so I had to get like a little room because I had to elevate my foot, you know. And so I had this little room that I would all of a sudden be in rather than at my desk. And these two dudes were in the room, I mean, all the time with me. Like, they, they, they just, they would walk in and they just kind of come in like, what are we doing today? Like, what we got? And it was just, I mean, it's not like a QB room because it's not an athletic thing. But there was some aspect of just like, I just like look forward to them coming in and I look forward to like the hours we would work would be kind of different. Like I would come in early and then get home early to go hang with the kids and then get back online after they could go to bed. Those guys would come in a little later, they're younger, get in, come in a little later, and then just like stay late. So there's some aspect of like we used to joke we had a 24 hour cycle of like somebody was working on the business, you know, the whole time. And so some of you get in and they'd be like, hey, I figured this out last night and it was just so fun. And then we had this other guy named Veer who you guys might have met. He was great dude. But he would come in and Vera was younger and earlier in his career, but he did an amazing rounders Teddy KGB impression. Just a, just 10 out of 10, 20 out of 10. And veer sometimes, like, you know, he was younger, so if I would call him into the office, the people around him might think that he was, like, gonna get assigned something or get in trouble. Hey, Vera, can I see you for a second? And he would walk in and then like 75% of the time they, like, hit me with a Teddy kgb. And he would just roll his eyes. But I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, you know, something like, pay that man his money. You know, something like that. But it was just that kind of stuff. Like those teams. Jane. The moment I knew was when I was looking forward to it. And then I also knew because, like, you could seamlessly move between work and, like, fun. But it all felt like the ball was moving forward. It wasn't. We weren't messing around and not doing stuff. We were, we were working.

Do you have to win for that to happen or at least feel you're making progress or value? Like, like, how do you think about, like, the role of, like, okay, yeah, we're not here to just around the entire time. We're here to have a good time, but we're also here to work hard. So where does success play in that? Obviously, when you win a game on Sunday, Alex, the quarterback room is hopping on Monday, right? And the locker rooms pop. It's way easier when you win, it's like, where does success fit into that?

I think you have to be getting better. And then I'll shut up, but I don't think you have to win. But I think, at least in my world, I think you at least have to feel like you're getting better.

Better.

You know, it's hard to probably in business because, I mean, you know, like, you don't get measured. You're dealing with longer horizons. Like, you know, we're playing weekly, so you could definitely, you, you got feedback a lot. I, I totally agree with you that, like, again, this wasn't a, wasn't like a dick off session, right? Like, we were doing something really hard and intense and stressful. But to be able to strike that balance with your teammates, to keep each other loose, right? And like, to keep you and to make the process fun, especially some grueling parts of the process. Again, I mentioned Monday, Monday mornings is like, part of that. But like, I, I'm, as you said this to me and I'm like, thinking back, Shane, like, I, I would be remiss if I didn't think, like, there were definite things when I broke my Leg and I was in the hospital. And again, they're like. When I was running through things in my mind that I would never be able to do again and that I would really miss, a couple of the things that definitely stood out to me involved the quarterback room and. Which is weird, right? Like, all these life things that I was thinking about and to be randomly thinking like this actually hit me before, like getting on a field and playing football again. We would have this stupid goal post game. We would play every Saturday before every single game. Okay. We developed in Kansas City. All the guys I mentioned, we all played in it. And you get your per diem on Saturday, especially if you were traveling. You got per diem to travel. And so it was customary. Everybody's putting the per diem.

I love that football players get a per diem.

It's in the pot. And we're. And we're going. And you would be. It would be this partner goalpost game. It was. Because Saturdays before. Before in a game is like a glorified walkthrough, right? Kind of the haze in the barn is as a cliche, right? The work's done. You're just kind of mental reps. But as a quarterbacks, like, we didn't want to not kind of break a sweat the day before the game. You didn't want to not throw the day before the game. Like, you didn't want to go from nothing to. To a high volume. So we would go play this goal post game after everybody left after the walkthrough, Everybody go in. QBs would stay out. And there were normally three of us, an odd number. So we'd make one of the receivers stay out. And like the last year, the young buck always got the worst teammate. So like the. The receiver always would be the. With the young. The young quarterback. And we would play this round robin partner goal post game was fun. Like, you'd have to. Each of us had the goal post from the 5, 10, and 15, and then we'd play the best of three, best of five series. Like, it was just fun. And you'd have to run back and forth. You'd be like running back and forth, shagging for your partner, hitting this goal post. It was a blast. And like, I distinctly remember again when I was like laid up in the bed, like, I'm never gonna be able to play the goal post game again, right? Like, this is something that I'm gonna be gone. And like every Thursday night after film. I don't know if I've told you this, guys. There's a hoop. In Kansas City we played a game of Chiefs. But that, that was horse. You played Chiefs?

Oh, got it.

So we would play and all these guys hooped. Every guy I mentioned hooped except me. So like I was the worst. I was the old man. But we would play that and then we'd go out to QB dinner, right? Girlfriends would come, wives would come and we go have a dinner. Right. Like I, that those are the things I think again to combine with such a stressful environment that I think I.

You're.

You're proud of, right? That like you found a way to deal with something really hard. And again the only way to deal with it was with great teammates. And I come back to what you said earlier ship and I earlier. But I don't think of it like this, but it really hit with me. Like when I thought of favorite. It was about these great teammates, right. And teammate ship for sure.

For sure.

These guys were phenomenal teammates and they took a lot of pride in being good teammates. Like I think as, as did I. And, and I think it.

Yeah.

Just, you know.

Do you have jokes that you still, you see an old teammate that you still. I mean if you see, if you see Vera, do you ask him to do the, the rounder's impression? Like, like, like what are, what are some jokes of, of like old teammates that every time you see them that you, you still play the game? Mine is, it's. It's the stupidest thing of all time. In, in at Duke, every time our team's gone, the elevator, you better covered your nuts and all right, someone, someone's.

Giving you a ball tap, little turkey tap.

Oh yeah. And friggin Elton Brand, you know, had you know, huge mids. If you, if you were like, you know, look in the skies, you got nailed. It hurt. I mean you felt it in your kidneys. So it's like it was just habit. You get in the locker, you get in the elevator, in any hotel, any road trip, you just cover yourself up. And still to this day when I see Ultra Brand, you know, Elton is a, you know, the GM of the Philadelphia 76ers. We go and give each other a hug, but it's always a one arm hug because I'm always covering my balls and so is he. So we still as old men don't trust each other. Stupid ass game we played 25 years ago. And so that makes me laugh, you know it. Well, we'll always do it. We will always do it. We will be old men and we'll Be in wheelchairs, and we'll still be covering our nutsack up, you know, so that. That's what I think of when I think of those. Those funny stories that just will never, ever die.

So I'll give you just to keep. Just to keep that rolling. I'll give a little insight. I feel like you. You develop all this on all your teammates. But, like, Patrick, right? Again, like, at this point, I'm old. You know, he comes in, he's. He's full East Texas, right? Like, and proud. I mean, he would come in, we would go out to these QB dinners, and we go to a steakhouse. Nice steakhouse. This man would throw ketchup. He'd ask for ketchup and throw ketchup on his plate right everywhere we went. And I'm like. I mean, like, again. And then that was fun because I was the old guy. I would get ribbed for being the old guy. These guys are young and giving me grief, and this man's putting ketchup on his steak right with it and. And always ordering a Coors Light. I mean, that's it. One order.

Brand loyal. Brand loyal. Very brand loyal. Yep.

I. Yeah, dude. Of course, Shane. I mean, I love hammering a good joke. Like, I love just, like, the same thing. So, yeah, dude, the Veer is. I think veer is like, 31 years old now. He's, like a professional. He works at a real tech company. I will. We were. We have a text chain. Me, Will, Sagar, and Veer. That's, by the way, named after some joke that we would always tell and with no context in the middle of the day, I'll just be like, hey, Cat. We call him Cat. Like, viewer cat. Hey, Cat, hit me with a. Hit me with a Teddy kgb. And I expect a voice memo back on the text chain. A voice memo. And if he doesn't respond in, like, 10 minutes, by the way, this man has a job, like, a real job, right? Hey. Hey, man, I asked you for the Teddy kgb. Where are you? And, like, he'll do it, and he still does it, and he kind of rolls his eyes, but he loves it. And then we'll rate it, you know, we'll rate it on there of, like, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, all these jokes that, you know, we hit. I used to joke Sagar's name is Sagar, of course, but we call him Soggy, and then we call him Soggy P. Like, Swaggy P, right? And so one time I was in a board meeting, and I just thought it was so Funny. I thought this joke was very funny where I was like. And this is the first time they're meeting Sagar, but in the board meeting, I was like, this is Sagar Sangvi. He was the, you know, valedictorian of Stanford Business School. If you'd like, you can call him Soggy P instead of Sagar because his shot selection is similar to Nick Young, you know, on our team. And to this day, he's like, what the man? You know, But I don't know, we just tell the jokes.

Hammer, is there. Is there a team that comes to mind that you didn't appreciate when you were going through it and you look back and say, oh, man, like a. I. I wish I could go back and. And just be in it one more time. Or. Or. Man, I learned so much from. From being part of that team. Alex, what team is that?

The. My last season, the 2020, my. My comeback season with Washington Covid. We didn't even know if it was going to be a season. I obviously was so up in the air with even being able to play or not, and I was kind of in my own world. And again, like, trying to figure out braces. And I start the year as the third stringer. I mean, the year does not start off where I mean, we start the year two and six, right? And again, it's. I don't know, these coaches, it's a full new regime in there, right? Like, and again, I'm the. I'm the leftovers from the year before. And the season looks like it's going down the drain. It just, like, not. Not good, right? By every metric. And I think, again, like, it was such a young team. It's all, like, the same young guys that are there. Terry McLaurin and, you know, Jonathan Allen and Duron Payne and these guys and like, just young, good dudes that were working hard and fighting through this. And then we went on a run at the end of the year and we made the freaking playoffs, right? Like, and again, part of this, obviously my journey of coming back and playing with it, which was amazing, but, I mean, we made the playoffs. We were 7 and 9, right? You don't have a winning record and you make the playoffs, you know, and again, I didn't even get to play in that playoff game because of my leg. And Taylor Heinecke plays, who was awesome. His whole story was so cool that year as well, coming into the QB room. But, like, I just see the year Washington had this year again in a new ownership change and, you know, head Coach and OC or sorry, gm, but like, a lot of those same young guys that are still there and I think just Covid. And the way the world was then, like, I didn't. I didn't. I was. And maybe I was just selfishly, like, ingrained in my own journey. Right. Well, I'm playing, but, like, it was. It was something that, as I reflect on, like, just cool. It was really cool. And again, I'm so thankful for the way, like, my. My career ended on that note.

Yeah.

You know, it's a team that I'm very proud of. I love watching these guys do their thing. Still, it was so unexpected. I never expected it, you know, And I think that's the thing that I look back and I really treasure it. Right. I didn't play a long time for Washington again, obviously. Everything that happened there was my injury and. And so it's hard to compare it and not fair to compare it to, like, my time in Kansas City or the Niners, of course, but it is. It is. It is a team. And what we did that year in the, you know, in spite of everything, was just, again, so unexpected and. And cool to be a part of.

It's. It's hard. It's. It's hard in sports when you play for a lot of different teams with varying levels of success to separate them, you know, and, you know, the fact of the matter, whether it's KKR for you, Robbie, or Instacart or Sequoia now, like, if being part of an awesome team is. Is special, right? And they all got their own journeys and they all got their own strengths, and they all got their own, you know, weaknesses and, you know, a lot. A lot of people ask me about the drama that goes. Goes on in the NBA with different players and whatnot. It's like, oh, man, everyone goes through crap. Everyone.

Right?

Just varying levels. And, you know, I think as you get older and you get more further away from that time, like when you were at KKR and you were a rookie at San Francisco when I was in Memphis, you forget about some of the warts and just some of the really, really crappy times. You're trying to figure it out. And you, you know, you're crying and you're crying. I'm crying. Our first couple of years and, you know, maybe. Maybe we're all fathers now and been married a long time that, you know, we appreciate nostalgia a little bit more and can look back on the good times at a young age. That's. That's maybe the hardest Thing to tell, I think young, young people is like, man, enjoy this team.

Right.

Enjoy this team right now. And like, I know you're trying to establish yourself, but if you can just like look around and take a deep breath and enjoy everybody wherever they are on their journey, it's going to make your journey so much better because you learn so much more.

Right.

And that like, young guys just are. And gals just like, hey, let's get to the next thing. Let's get to the next thing.

I. The reason I was nodding my head, same thing. It's such a good question. Like, I don't like the under. Kind of didn't appreciate in the moment teams as much. But yeah, I just think about me. I was at KKR for 10 years. Ten years, a long time.

Yeah.

And some of the people that like, I got to be around consistently, I'm talking, I'm not talking like the, the Henry and George types, obviously there's like a gift. But I mean, like, my friends that were there and that are there and those relationships where now I've known these people for, I mean, almost 20 years.

Yeah.

Right. And you know, 15 to 20 years. And like the original Capstone team that I joined was so good. Yeah. We only had 10 people. And all these people have turned out to do like, great things or even not professionally great things. Like, they're just like, they're so good, they're so substantive. They're like family. They're very family oriented. Like, there are people that I can trust forever, you know, and like, these are relationships I made when I was, like, I met these when I was 22, 23 years old. And in that moment, you don't really realize how special it is to be around people that you can look up to. I just took it for granted. Like, maybe that's the thing. All of a sudden I had. My dad always talks about this, actually. He's like, you know, it was hard for us. We didn't have that many role models. And I, I look around, I mean, I've had, I've had so many people I could look up to and like that same thing, getting a kick. You're on all these people at Capstone that like, man, like, I want to work like you work, I want to act, I want to produce like you produce. And I want to have a family like you, you know, seem like that's, that was, that's gold. And then some of these other guys that are still friends to this day that like, they put the relationship and the friendship above Everything else. And I don't know that I realized how unique that was. You know, it's like your point, Alex, of like, you know, not having expectations and are unexpected. Like, I think that the underappreciated ones for me are like. It's almost like you took it for granted that it. I almost like took it for granted that it was always this way. And it's not, it's not always that way. To like have people that care about you and have this unique combination of context and trust. That's why some work friends can be so interesting and valuable in the long term is like, you know, part of the reason I've become so close with Michael park, who you guys all know is like, Michael has this crazy combination to me of like context and trust. He like understands the professional stuff that's going on and I just trust him so implicitly. And so all of a sudden there's like so many levels of the friendship that you can have and even has context on like the parenting stuff too. Just like you guys, you know, and what we've built together is like you have shared context. So. Yeah. That underappreciated team question, Shane, is so good. Have you had them? Are there ones that you didn't appreciate in the moment?

Yeah, yeah. Early in my NBA career, you know, the fact that we make the playoffs three straight years in Memphis, but never won a playoff game, people just. We got swapped three straight years, right? And we won 50 games. Two out of three years, 49 games, one year. I mean, one of the most remarkable turnarounds in NBA history and you just felt like we didn't win a playoff game.

Yeah, right.

And, and I had amazing teammates throughout that run. You know, I saw Paul Gasol grow from this kid who was fresh off the, the, the boat from Spain to NBA all Star. And I had some really good veterans like Bobby Jackson and Edd Jones and play with golly, just really good, like hall of Fame coaches. And it was always like, okay, at that time I was, I was always care about. All I cared about was my next contract, right? So let's get the next contract and everything will be okay. You know, like the crate. The, the craziest team ever, ever played on was the, the Houston Rockets team that won 22 games in a row. Okay. Until my team with the Heat and the warriors beat it. It was the second longest winning streak in NBA history.

I mean, still probably top five, right, Shane?

Yeah, it's the fourth longest.

Yeah.

Fourth longest streak in NBA history. 22 games in a Row. And this was like the most organic run that I've ever seen in sports. Because when we started this, we were like, I don't know, probably in the, in the, the eighth spot in the playoffs. Okay. It wasn't, it wasn't like this was a team that was a top four seed in the, in the Western Conference. And this is when the Western Conference was San Antonio, Dallas Lakers. I mean, it was, it was murderous Row. And our, our team was great. Yao ming, obviously, Trace McGrady were all stars. Yao Ming gets hurt probably eight games in. If we win eight in a row, you know, they, they insert Dikemu Mutombo, may he rest in peace. And he like turned back the clock, turned back the hands of time was getting like 10 blocks a game. TMAC was scoring. We were pulling guys out of the G League and they were hitting game winners. And like, it was, it was like the purest time I've ever spent on a team. Because we couldn't explain it and we didn't want to explain it. You know, you're talking about throw like a, throwing a no hitter that no, like, no one talks about. Like we won, you know, we won like 16 games in a row. And like, no one would talk about the streak. Nobody. Because like, no one wanted to like, acknowledge it or jinx it. And people are talking, you know, are you guys going to break the lakers, you know, 32 game winning streak? And we're like, dude, we're like, we don't know what's happening here. And it was, it was, it was so pure and like this. I just never forget going around the city of Houston and just like everywhere we went, people were just like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Now we won 22 games and we climbed to the fifth spot. That's how, that's how tough, that's how tough the, the Western Conference was. We went from the eighth spot to the fifth spot in efforts.

Yeah, it was crazy.

It was crazy. And you know, I'll never Forget that our 22nd win was against the Lakers. We played. I knew Kobe was coming. As a national TV game. They preempted everything, put us on there. I knew Kobe was trying to come and end the streak by himself. You know, Pago sold him play. He was hurt. Someone's like, oh, this guy's gonna shoot the ball 50 times and try to, you know, make it about him that he beat the streak. And it was, it was like my, like my Mona Lisa. It was my best game ever as a defender. And that's when like, I got famous for the hand in the face thing and, and it pissed Kobe off. It was great. We won the game and it was like, it was, it was the peak innocence of a team I've ever been on. That has been great. And so I, I wish I could go back to that team and enjoy that run a little bit more and, and. And appreciate it while it was going on versus trying to ignore the success and the innocence.

What year was that for you?

Golly, that was 2009.

So were you, like, what year in the league?

I was probably like my eighth year in.

Okay, gotcha. Because it's funny, I do think there's something to the age, right? Like when you're young, I think there's so many distractions sometimes and you're so. Your insecurities can get the best of you and you just kind of you. I think it, it's easy to lose perspective on things. I can so relate to the. I don't know if this happens in business, but in football it definitely happens. A lot of like former old players come around, right? And they talk to the team and they. It's the message that we just said, right? Like before you know it, it's going to be gone.

Enjoy it.

Enjoy this thing, right? Like, let it rip. Don't let the, you know, kind of all this stuff. But when you're a young guy and someone it's. It's spoken to you and almost at you, like, I can't tell you how many times it's like, okay. Huh? Like, you know, you, like, you wouldn't even.

Yeah.

Like this guy doesn't know what, you know, this old timer doesn't know what, what, what it's like now. So it was hard. But I do agree the best examples though, to your point, Robbie, were like the guys that actually lived it next to you, you know, like the mentors that actually, like, that's. You got to see up close and personal that ended up having the biggest effect on me for sure. Right? Like that, like when I could see somebody enjoy an off season process, right? Like enjoy a training camp day, enjoy a Monday after, you know, like coming in. Even if you got your, if you lost a heartbreaker or something, like it's month, you got to come in and like, you know what I'm saying? There has to be ability to like, own it and move on and laugh at it sometimes.

So I. Dude, I think there's, I think on that point. So no, that doesn't really happen in business. I mean, right? Like they don't, like, come back and tell you to enjoy it.

Um, but your role as a board member now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, when I give the Fireside Chat, I'm like, oh, guys, remember, I do try to tell people when it's hard, though. I'm like, listen, like, the stuff I miss from Instacart is the hard times. I don't miss the good times, I miss the hard times. And I'm like, I am like. I do feel like real man. Like you guys are in it, you know, you're in the.

You're gonna.

You're gonna tell the stories based on this or you tell the stories based on the scars, right? You don't tell the stories based on like. And then this thing happened. And then this was great. And this was, you know, nobody cares. I do think that one of the things I was thinking about, Alex, when you were talking, there's that Maya Angelou quote of like, no one will remember what you said. No one remember what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel. And so the thing about it in the old timers telling you is like, the words don't matter. It's like you gotta feel it. And the only way to feel it is to watch somebody, you know, how they sound, how they seem almost when you don't ask them what they say, you know. And then I do remember this, like, on the, like, people enjoying it. And I've talked about this before, but like, the guy who's the current co CEO of kkr, Scott Noddle, like, he was so impactful to me without knowing it at different points, because, like, when he would talk in front of the company, he just like, looked like he was having a good time. And when you'd see him walking around, he looked like he was having a good time. And I remember being like, damn, you can like, do this kind of stuff, but enjoy yourself, you know, like you. And that was very affecting, you know, and he didn't even know, but, like, it did matter to me. But I think that you. One of the things I'm thinking about, about, like, what Shane was saying of, like, you're so focused on the next contract or whatever the equivalent is in business. I was definitely focused on that stuff too, is it's a little bit like, you know, when you're a teenager, like the whole world is just sort of like, you kind of see the world just about you, right? Yep. And then a lot of times, reality.

Is perception, or perception is reality.

Yes. But what's interesting is like, you know, a lot of times you sort of, like, describe. People, describe life is like, there's the teenage period and then there's, like, your adult period. It's like, no, like, there's, like, there's periods within your adult period, too. And, like, it's not like a, it's not a step change. Like, I would bet when I was, like, in my mid-20s and in my, you know, whatever, like, I was always seeing the world as, like, what does it mean for me? What does it mean for me? It's not one quite as much as when I was a teenager, but, like, for sure, I. My point is, it's, I think it's more of a progression than I think we give it credit for. I always tell my parents, like, my, like, peak selfishness with them was, like, between 18 and 31, like, basically before we had kids, like, leaving the house into when we had kids, like, because I just didn't think about it that much. And then after we had kids, I, like, gained a better perspective. But I, I think there is something to this of, like, I wish I had the perspective I have now when I was going through that stuff when I was, like, 20s and 30s.

We'll say that we're gonna say that in 20 years, too. About this time, my dad, I'm sure.

Was gonna listen to this and laugh and be like, son, you're still dumb. You know, you still don't get it, you know, but he's right, right?

I literally wrote down every single team I've ever played on and kind of, like, went through, you know, the aspects of them and things, like, before this. Shane. And it's funny you asked about, like, well, is winning or success important? And, and Ravi, you said, you know, improvement. You do have to have an element of, like, playing well, right? Like, they're, like, of what you were doing was working.

Yeah, I think so, too.

You know, like, I, I, I mean, I just say this because I realized, like, I haven't spoken about any of the terrible teams I was on when I was playing. Like, you know, like, that just inherently sucks and is not a good experience. And so, like, not.

No.

And, and I think ultimately it's because I didn't know what I was doing, right? Like, I didn't know. And so, but that is a part of this. You can't leave it out. You can't discount.

What do you say to someone who's listening and they're like, you know, my teams are okay, you know, like, we haven't broken any records. You Know, fiscally, everyone kind of likes each other, but, like, it's just fine. I mean, I think some people go through life never experiencing a team of success. So, like, like, like, if you're listening and you're like, no, you guys are full of crap, like, you know, what do you. What do you say to that person?

So I have a good friend whose name is Tom, okay. And he has a great expression. He used to run his own business, and it was like a successful business for sure. But I think he would say in the moments where it didn't feel like the business outcome was going to be crazy successful, he's like, dude, like, one of our values was celebrate the work, right? You got to celebrate the work. And that's where I think you can bridge this gap a little bit. I thought it was like a great expression because when Alex, like, you got to be playing well. I do think that, like, even if the ultimate outcome is not exactly what you want, you can still, like, do. You can still do play well. You can still do great work. You can still feel like. And, you know, you're doing great work. It's like kind of go to bed at night knowing you, you went out and did it. You. You did a good job and you cared. And I, I thought that that was really insightful when he said that. And at some point, I'm going to have him come on with us. But. And the name of the episode should be Celebrate the Work. But, like, he, he told me that, and I, I thought that was. I thought that was very effective, very appropriate, I think.

Shane, I guess, you know, you posed that question to, like, for our listeners. And, and in some ways, I feel like I'm in the same boat now, right? Like, my, My playing days are done when it was something very tangible. Right. And so now what? I. I guess I just go back to what are the measurements, right? Like, what do you. What are you really measuring by? Like, what's important, you know, for you? Because in football, it's so black and white, right? Like, it's so binary. Like, I, I can't help but think that, like, as we're talking about this, like, Giannis a few years back, like, loses whatever round that was.

Yeah, yeah.

Press conference. And here he's like, had an MVP caliber season. They lose in heartbreaking. And he gets. Immediately. It's like, was this a failure? You know? And, like, I just thought it was really cool for him because really, like, again. And I. My whole NFL career falls in this boat. If that was the way it was a failure. I didn't win. I never won it, you know, and like, but I don't, I don't view it like that. Yeah, and, but that's hard. And I guess that measurement's hard and sometimes unfair, but at the same times when you get out of it and, and for me now, like, it's hard to find a measurement though. And now I'm on the whole other side of this, like, yeah, you kind of, you know, you can drift, you know, and be adrift and so trying to like, be more, you know, for me, conscious, I guess, about what's important.

You know, you know, in your day, in your day job in espn. I mean, you're lucky you have guys who've been through it though, you know, and, and Teddy Brusky and, and Randy Moss and you know, guys who've been in locker room. So trying to recreate that, that feeling is in a different way, you know, it's hard. It's totally, you know, you know what it is and you've been there and you know, you may not have the competition element anymore, but you know what, what that feels like to be a great teammate.

Right?

Yeah, no, for sure. And I've told you guys this, like, I mean, this isn't anything. And again to come, I guess it comes full circle again back to the QB room because for me, Sunday Countdown with ESPN has like been the most fun by far I've had doing tv. But it's just because of the people.

Yeah, right.

Again, it's just because of your people. And again, that's no different. Right? It's groups, tech, group, text, giving each other, you know, enjoying live TV and freaking ratings and you know, like, it, it's not easy either. But yeah, like, again, it's probably the exact same things why I enjoy doing the Sunday so much and, and yeah, it is a team that I, I, I'm proud to be a part of.

Well, so I think, I think the pride thing, Huge deal. Huge deal. And Shane, as you think, when you think about the elements in the book, I do think like being proud to be part of the team is like a really big sign of like a team that you care about. And it's like kind of the same thing, but I think that element's important. I also though, I think so. You know, Shane, obviously you know him. Alex, do you know Sam Hinkey?

I know of him. I've listened to some of his stuff.

So he's like a very dear friend and he has this great thing which is like he's like, look, you know, he's like, I really like being relied upon. I really like being reliable. That's like, something that he, like, really values and cares about. And I do think that, like, one of the, like, abstract things I think about a lot is, like, it's really nice to be relied upon and it's nice to rely on other people, even though it's not like, something that necessarily comes naturally. But the real teams that end up happening, I think the ones that I care about, if I, like, really try to think about the ones that I've loved. And this includes, like, coaching our kids, you know, flag football team. It's that, like, you're relied upon. Like, people, they're. They're looking at you to do certain things and you're relying on other people, too. And this is why I like, like the group chats on my. My favorite app on my phone is like, you know, imessage, right? It's the text messages because that's where, like, so much joy happens on that, which is when we get a group texting blue guys. Like, I love getting that. Right, and I love that I'm expected to respond and send stuff back, but you know what I'm saying, like, I think that I can. That's a big, important element. I think Sam really has expressed that well to me of, like, he really likes being reliable and being relied upon. And I. I think about that. I think that's a very important element of the teams that I've loved, and that's why the teams are everywhere. But I really appreciate that feeling.

I think. Yeah, he's talking about being trusted.

Yeah, being trusted, right?

Being trusted. Showing competency, showing integrity.

Yes.

Showing benevolence. That's a good way to put it. Just being relied upon and relying on others. That's all we can. Hey, that's our human nature, right? I mean, this is evolutionary. We were in the bush in Africa, hunting for dinner in the savannah, in the. The bush. Russell, right. You feel much better when you have your boys with you with spears versus alone, right?

Totally.

And. And if something were to go down and there was another tribe about to take you down or saber. Sabertooth, tiger, like, you want. You want the people you can. You can rely on, right?

Totally. And this is the thing. This is the thing that's so crazy is, like, when somebody asks you to do something, if they're actually genuinely grateful and they actually need you, they thank you afterwards, right? And they're like, oh, my God, thank you so much for doing this. And the real answer is you're like, honestly, this did more for me than it did for you. You know, I tell people that a lot, which is, like, if a person I respect calls me and asks me for my help. Right. On any. On, like, work stuff or anything, but let's just say work stuff at the end, they're always like, man, I really appreciate you picking up. Thank you for being there. I'm like, this did more for me than it did for you. You know, like, you wanted my opinion, and you want. You cared, and you trusted me enough to ask, like, you know, one. I'm very proud that I'm still on the instacart team. But, like, part of what I'm proud of is, like, when Fiji calls, I. I tell her, I'm like, you know, she's like, oh, I appreciate you picking up so late. And I'm like, I appreciate that you actually care what I think about this topic, you know? And I. And I think that's, like, a crazy lesson of, like, you know, does more for the person being asked than the person doing the asking.

Yeah.

You know, really? How do you think it goes for, like, how many employees does Instacart have now? Not include. Not including shoppers.

Like, 2500 to 3000. I think it's like, 2800. How do you.

How do you think it goes for these teams? Right, because how big was the team when you first arrived?

300.

Right. All in one. One space, I'm assuming, for the most.

Part, you know, and, like, all in one space.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And it's different, right? You get these big companies and you've had success, but, like, I think for a lot of people that maybe feel disconnected and don't feel all these things that we've just talked about. Right. How do you. I mean, is it. Can you. Can you handle both? Like, I mean, can it be done? Can you be at scale like that and still create trust and connection and pride and, you know, all these things we've talked about?

You know, I think so. I think this is where the teams within the teams, though, do ultimately. I think this is where the genius of that sort of, like, statement comes in.

The Urban Meyer unit.

Yeah. What do you call it? Absolutely. Unit leaders. I think this is where, like, all this research is, like, you don't leave your company. You leave your manager. Right. And I think so much research. I actually heard about this the other day with someone. Like, there's actually a ton of researchers. Like, do you have friends at work? Is, like, such an important question as to whether you stay or not, you know? And so I think. I think, Alex, you're definitely right. I think it is much harder. There's this number of, like, Dunbar's number, which is, you know, 150, where effectively, it's sort of like once you're in a group that's above 150, it, like, really starts to become harder to keep it together because not everyone knows what everyone else is doing. That's actually, like, the reason that it breaks, I think. And so I do think is the higher and higher and higher you get, like, you know, you don't have context, and, you know, a lot of times you don't trust. But I think this is where, like, it's all about, like, the teams within the teams within the teams, you know? And then I also think this is a little bit. I'm, like, not sure this is true, but I do think we're, like, storytelling species, and I do think people react to stories, you know, And I think it is easier to keep people together if there is some shared story that you're, like, you know, believing around, you know, and this is why, like, missions are important and all that. So, yeah, I think. I think it can be done. I do think it's difficult. But, like, yesterday I was telling you guys before we started recording, like, when I was at Sierra, this company that I'm on the board of, like, they have 130 people, and they're, like, winning, you know, and, dude, like, the vibe in their all hands is so fun because it's, like, this incredible number of people that, like, everybody's in it. Everybody's got the same goals, right? And they're excited and proud to be there. They're. They're improving, they're winning, and, like, they're just having. They're having so much fun.

Do you bring up Dunbar's number to that group?

No, I did not. I did not.

But that's an irresponsible board member.

I mean, you know, why, Shane? You know why, Shane? Shane.

Shane.

I was there to rap. I was not there to, you know, talk to them about Dunbar's number. Right. They had achieved a financial goal that was a stretch.

Do you. Do you feel comfortable sharing this story with. Yeah.

Happy to do that. It was actually. It was so, so fun. Yeah. So this company had hit a. A stretch financial goal, and their wonderful sales leader, Reggie had been like, hey, listen, like, if we hit this goal, you know, you got to do something for us. You got to. It'll make it Fun. And we agreed on a super stretch goal and the company hit it. And, you know, kudos to Reggie for maybe he set me up. I don't know. I don't think so. I think he.

You picked the number though, right?

Yeah, I'm not gonna share the number, but I did pick the number. I did pick the number like you said. So, you know, but, but you know, I might have gotten. I might have gotten, you know, snookered here by. By, By Reggie. But. But I respect it because he's an amazing sales guy, so. Amazing leader. So anyway, I said, went in and you know, I. The deal was if they hit this goal, I had to wrap Rappers Delight, okay, The first verse of Rapper's Delight. And I had. So I, you know, I brought what I thought with my A game. I wore a tracksuit that's appropriate for the 80s full tracks. I'll send you guys the video. We're not going to put in the show notes, you know, but I wore a full tracksuit, I had a big gold chain on. And I, I wrapped the first verse of Rapper's Delight in front of this company. And the thing about it, and Shane, you'll appreciate this so much. And Alex, you will too, do like, that's an absurd site, right? Like some idiot board member who's obviously doesn't know what he's doing, like rapping in front of you. If you want to be cool, right, you could make that person feel pretty bad, right? Like, of like, what are you doing? Right? Like, you really could make me feel terrible up there, right? Because, like, yet this company. And this is what was so fun. They like, so bought into it. They bought into it so much that they talked about it before of, oh, if we hit this goal, then this guy's going to rap. And like, they, like. And like, they clapped along with the song. They were cheering everything that I would do to like, you know, remember, I go in the tracksuit. They could be like, oh, my God, you look like an idiot. They're like, oh, it's Sierra Green. You know, they. By buying in, they took this thing that could have been really embarrassing and not fun at all. And they made it so fun. They made it so fun. And I'll remember it forever. And they're like. And I hope they feel like, oh, like he did something that was humiliating and difficult. Right? But it wasn't humiliating because they made it fun. It was amazing. It was awesome. Um, and it also gave me something with the, with the kids where, like, I told them I was doing this they're like, oh, my God, dad. Like, what are you doing? And so I, like, were practicing with the kids over the weekend. And so it just took this thing that, like, you know, it comes from their success. But it was. It was such a good example of, like, the magic that can happen in a team. And I would imagine that that's something that I know I'll remember it. And I think that the people that were there will remember it.

I think you're discounting your role in this a little bit. I also think it's cool that you went all out for it and owned it, right? Because if you also were too cool or self conscious, you wouldn't have got the reaction that it did. And the whole thing doesn't work right. Like, again, the trust.

And I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. And, Alex, I'll tell you so, one, like, one of the values of this company is craftsmanship. Okay? They don't have, like, 10 values. They just have a few. And one of the values is craftsmanship. And I was thinking about it, and I was like, if I go there and I just, like, show up and don't do a good job, they're gonna be like, dude, come on, man. And I was like, well, craftsmanship. All right. I gotta, like, I gotta do it. I gotta actually commit. I have to try and be good at this. I have to wear the outfit.

And it was machine and a bucket hat just coming out.

Come in. Next week on glue guys, 80s rap from Ravi Gupta.

That's right. That's right. You know what? When we have our live event, like the Acquired guys, Shane, then we can get that. We can do it. You're obviously a karaoke expert from all the Bad Oak stuff, so, you know, I know you'd appreciate it.

You know, I try. I try. My latest event, we had a live karaoke band, and I had a backup singer. And I was disappointed that I always lead off for the first song. And I did Easy Lover. Phil Collins, Philip Bailey, underrated banger. Sets the Mood. And the guy didn't know the words, so it kind of left me out there for the high part. So.

Wait, what?

Yeah, everybody knows this song.

Shane, what are some of the other, you know, first song, you know, that you've done at this event? Because if you always started off y. You know, I think I've seen in the past that when you did it in Miami, when your LeBron did Rick James, Y, if I'm not mistaken, that's pretty cool.

Chris Bosch did Barry White. My first. My last my everything LeBron did. Rick James, James Jones did. Cisco Thong song. So leader of the. I mean, he went all out. He dyed his hair silver. So we've had some amazing, amazing performances. The first ever bad Bear, when it was Bad Oki, it was Eye of the Tiger by Survivor. And so did.

Did I see. Did napkins come out?

Napkins did not come out. No. No one got married. We reserved that for weddings.

Oh, that's okay. I didn't know.

I didn't know. But it's for the kids. For the kids.

Would you have done the napkins if you had been appropriately or overserved? Shane, at Alex's hall of fame thing, even though it's not a wedding, would that have been a possible situation for.

Napkins as a sign of love and respect? And if I felt the mood was right, I would have done it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it would have been. It would have been good. That. That event. That event, I think earned napkins, you know, I. I think so. I think the backup singer idea for the karaoke band is really. That's fantastic.

It's next level as someone with a terrible voice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Live band. So you get. You got a. You got a guitar player, keyboard player, drummer, and a backup singer. It's legit. It's legit setup.

So if.

If you ever have a chance to go sing live karaoke, do not pass it up. It'll change your life. You'll never go back. You'll never go back.

So, Shane, what have we learned today about teams?

Well, my takeaways are like the first memory of the great teams that we've all played for. Centered around fun.

Right.

And centered around very memorable exchanges that are timeless. Whether it's catch up or a ball tap. Right.

You know, ketchup ball tap, or Teddy kgb. Somehow there's something together in there. Yeah.

I love what you talked about. Earned inclusion. That's. That's a. That's a major theme of not just allowing anybody to be part of a team. Yeah. You got to earn your way on. When you do, it means something more. And as a result, the sort of. The mission of the team means more. Everything just means more, right?

Totally.

Nothing's for free. And through that, you know, you earn context and trust, which is like the. The fiber of. Of, of of that fabric of a team. And so, and maybe most importantly for. For our listeners, like, just appreciate. Appreciate the teams you're on. You're on a lot of them. You're on a lot of them, and they're all in different places, and especially for our younger listeners, trying to. Trying to make it take a deep breath, look around and appreciate your. Your teammates around you, because it does go fast. And, you know, we've been all been part of amazing teammates, but even we regret not smelling the roses and appreciating the people and the. And the tasks we focused on on those teams. You know, at the end of the day, when we're on our deathbed, that's all we got are the teams that we're on and the people we're on them with. And so just slow down and enjoy it because it's worthwhile.