Why Great Teams Never Stay Satisfied - [Glue Guys, EP.27]

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They do a lot of research based around the heliotropic effect. Now the heliotropic.

Fucking dude guys. Fucking dude guys right here. I mean, good lord.

Heliotropic.

And basically everyone knows what it is. It's.

No, no, no. Everyone does not know what it is. I have no idea what it is, at least to me. I think what's so interesting is, like, if you're an owner or like whatever, like the decision maker who's making the hire, you sort of want to believe that you can like, win via strategy advantage, right? Or a technical advantage. And you sort of like. Because it's easier to identify those things, you know what I'm saying? And so in this case, it's like, man, I think part of the reason coordinators get hired is they can explain. I'm going to create this tactical advantage through this. Like, you guys remember when the Notre Dame coach got hired from the Patriots? Charlie.

Charlie Weiss.

Weiss. I still remember his interview, which I remember in the moment being like, this is one of the craziest things I've ever seen somebody say. He's like, we have a significant strategic advantage walking into every game, basically because he was a former NFL head coach. And I was like, wow. Like, it's so, like, that can't last. And of course, like, it wasn't. He wasn't as successful and I don't know him at all. But like even just that belief, like you can't really think that. I think if you're in the head coaching world, you know, I think every.

Every coach believes it in, in their heart of hearts. I think every coach we talk about ego and you, you gotta, you gotta have an ego to get to that, that rank. And so I, I'm pretty sure every coach thinks they're bringing something to the table. The next guy's not.

Totally. I totally agree.

Yeah, maybe.

I mean, I, I, I do think it's such a short lived advantage, right? Yeah, like, like everybody catches up quick. You're putting it on film every single game. And that advantage, whatever it is, is, is again, they're going to figure it out. Right? And I think the real magic obviously is in all these things that, you know, like the things that are like, you can't put your finger on.

Yeah, totally. But like, you know what's so interesting about that, I totally agree with you on like the, the how quickly you can catch up to it because I kind of think the best definition I've ever heard of culture is sort of like, it's like what happens when the leader is not in the room, right? Because it's like the unspoken behaviors. And so if you really think about it, the only wing that's like actually hard to catch up to is the stuff that like spreads or scales or it's like the, the decisions that are made that are not the like strategic, you know, decisions. Because that's the stuff everybody does and that's the stuff you can't like just like watch on film and copy, right? Like the trust that people have in each other or whatever. But anyway, that's.

No, you're right. Like think about like look at the Patriots, right? Like look at Bill Belichick and the culture that the patriots created for 20 years, right, of championship, like just like the standard of excellence, right? How many coaches, going back to your Charlie Weiss example, how many organizations tried to poach people from that system and duplicate that and failed, right? And failed. And they were running the same structure, right, like the same X's and O's and it just didn't work. I mean there's countless, there's like five or six of these coaches that it, that went on to become head coaches and couldn't do it and clearly. Yeah, like the, that's the point. The magic's not in, not in that stuff. Not in the X's and O's.

Going back to the. Oh, go ahead.

You know, like an analogous, you know, real time Issue that's going on now is like, the chip war in Asia, right? And the Taiwanese manufacturer, their. Their commitment to precision and excellence and quality control is unparalleled. And the Chinese chip makers, they know, like, how the Taiwanese semiconductor industry is run. They know, like, the basic components, they know the structure, but it's. It's that je ne sais quoi that the Taiwanese have that the Chinese just don't, that they can't replicate the quality. Quality of semiconductor conductor chips. And, you know, to. Just to make a business. Sports.

I feel like Brother Badier went pretty deep there. Like, where's Michael Park? What do you. Michael Parker, Exactly? I mean. Well, I mean, I don't know I should be able to comment on this, but I will.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna do a little bit more.

Reading before I do that. I can tell you this, which is that I. I mean, separately, I think that Taiwan is the most, like, influential and impactful place in the world over the next 20 years for exactly what you just said. Because if you basically believe that, like, technology is changing and the infrastructure of this is largely based in Taiwan, if you, like, just take a step back, you're like, okay, well, that's a really important place to stay independent, and China doesn't want it to be independent, and. And the US really wants it to be independent. It's just literally the most interesting place and the most impactful place in the world over the next couple of decades. It's crazy. It's like a tiny island is going to determine a lot of how the world works over the next few decades.

But even taking the talent out of Taiwan and building a factory in Arizona, it doesn't matter if it's China or Arizona.

It just.

There's something about something. Something in the water in Taiwan that is. It's magic. It's no different than, you know, that the Patriots tree or the great sports teams. And when you pluck people from winning situations, you hope they bring their magic fairy dust with them. But that is not the case. More often than not, I would argue.

One of the things I actually tell people. It's so funny. I tell people on career stuff just for what you just said on the plucking people from magic situations. I always tell people, even if you're selfish and you want to, like, have a great career and business, the best thing you can do is play for a winning team. Because all the recruiters do is they find winning companies and then they try to find somebody from there, and then they do the exact Same thing that they do in sports, right? Oh, cool. You are a VP at, you were a director at Google. You were a director at Stripe. Cool, we'll make you a VP at our startup. They just like pick. And so even if you're really selfish, the best thing you can do is just get, go play for a winning team. Because nobody goes to some like rando crappy company and then like recruits from there, they just recruit from the good ones, whether or not that person is actually great or has the magic pixie dust or whatever. And so it is interesting. That's totally the same thing that happens in tech.

It goes back to our original thesis of, you know, there's so much talent in middling teams, right? There's amazing, amazing people that can make a huge difference in a business or a team and they're just wallowing in mediocrity, you know, and if, if, if you're tuned into the subtle clues of like, yeah, this is a really crappy situation for that person, but that person, they got the magic dust, you know, there's huge, huge, huge, huge surplus in finding those glue guys, glue gals in middling situations.

You know what's crazy about that chain? This actually happened literally like two days ago. I was talking to this guy who helped build out like all of the infrastructure for Meta, okay. And he is probably like at one point he was spending $15 billion a year.

3.

$15 billion a year. He was like in charge of it for Meta. Okay? So like just like he told us at one point that he had a person whose full time job, full time job was mapping the subsea, like, you know, geography in order to figure out where to place the fiber optic cables that they place subsea, okay? To make sure that they like, you know, avoided fishing places or high traffic places. Like, think about like the level of precision this guy's on. And so he's one of the few people in the world who like really knows infrastructure the way that somebody could. And then the next wave of AI, it's all, there's this, this huge build out that has to happen of infrastructure. And I was asking him like, what are you looking for? What are you going to do? He's probably one of like the, I don't know, five or 10 people in the world that knows the most about this. He didn't say money, he didn't say even impact. He's like, I just want to work with really great people, you know, again. And like that's, that's what I'm looking for. The Entire metric, he's like, you know, know, looking forward to is just like, being around, effectively being around, like high talent glue people. And I'm like, wow. Like, this guy is like in the middle of the most important trend in technology. He can, like, name his price. He can name any of that stuff. And, like, the thing that he wants is basically like a good group of peers, you know, like that. That's the entire thing. You're like, wow, like the guy who can have anything. That's the thing. He wants a good team.

Don't we, don't we all want that?

How often in sports, though, like, do you see somebody and it's, it's the nature of it, though. They're on a winner and they. Maybe they have a role that's not a feature role, right? But they, they leave because they want the bigger. You know what I'm saying? They want the bigger thing. And totally. And I think obviously in hindsight, a lot of times they find their way back, right? They kind of boomerang back.

Shane, did you know Joe Johnson in the NBA?

I graduated with Joe Johnson. So I've been playing as Joe for, For, gosh, decades now.

To me, he's like this, like, example. I think about all the time for what you just said, Alex, like, on this incredible Suns team, they're, like, having much fun. They're so good. They're, like, on a path to, like, you know, okay, these guys are going to win something. This dude's like the third or fourth option. And then he left. I think he went to Atlanta or something. Big check. And then just like, never won again. And, you know, like, to me, it was just like this total example of, you know, you had Nash, you had Stoudemire, you just had this, like, chemistry. You had that book, seven seconds. They were so good. They were so fun. And then it was like, I got to go get. I got to go get some money, you know, and be the top guy. And then just like, never won again.

What's the opposite of that? When has that worked in sports, in business? Can you think of anything off the top of your head where that's worth. You're taking the third or fourth option. Put them in a new situation, and that person becomes All Star. Hall of Famer, Harden.

No championships, though.

Yeah.

Scoring titles, lots of shots.

We got to have a discussion of whether, like, I'm biased, know, at one point, like, do you need a championship to be a dude?

Do you need a championship in, in football? It's the same way, right? Like, one of arguably. And it's, it's actually probably not even arguably. Like one of the greatest arm talents of all time is Dan Marino. It's not even close. Like, so, like when you're, like when you're building a quarterback from an arm perspective, like arm talent, it's Dan Marino. He's the guy. And he doesn't have a championship, right? He has a million yards he's thrown for and touchdowns and, you know, all the accolades. He doesn't have a championship. So the moment you go to the greatest quarterback of all time, he is not even in the realm of the discussion because of that. And I do think it's, it's fascinating football even weirder because, you know, these are one game, like, you know, basketball a little bit. Seven game series. Talent should rise to the top. And I think it's, that's argument's probably even more defensible. Football, like, you know, the ball is shaped funny, it bounces different ways. Like quarterbacks get credit for wins that sometimes they have zero, you know, zero responsibility for. And you know, like on. It's, it's, it's such a, it's an interesting thing.

What do you think, Shane?

I. I'm biased. I'm biased. So, so for me, it's not just like the ring, all right? And I can say that now that I've won two NBA championships and a NCAA championship and three high school state titles. So like I've, I've, I. All right, every level I've ever played it, but it's not necessarily the titles. And it sounds like super, like braggadocious is not. It's, it's. We all want to see how people perform when there's consequence. And the ultimate consequence is in a playoff situation and in a championship situation, right? And does that person, you know, rise to the occasion? Do they shrink? Do they crumble? And if you're never in that conversation, you never really know that, that that player and you, you cannot truly give that player that flowers because they've never faced that pressure. Look, I play LeBron James, right? LeBron James, every meal was dissected, the way he walked, the way he positioned his shoulders, every interaction with coach, you know, Coach Spo, it was on the news cycle 24 7, right? There was nowhere for LeBron James to hide, right? And this is why I think LeBron's the greatest of all time. Because he has produced overproduced, he's out kicked any expectation he ever had for himself, you know, going back to when he's 13 years old. With the eye of the media, which has never been brighter on him at all times. At all times. And he's still produced. All right. The. The Olympics were freaking amazing. We're amazing. Like, LeBron doesn't need, like, anything else to. To prove how great he is, but, like, he, at 40 years old, played amazing, knowing that if the US loses to Serbia in that game or they lose to France, it's considered a disaster. And LeBron's probably going to get the blame, right? So LeBron knows this. He's not an idiot. And so, like, that's like, legacy tarnishing, pressure. And, you know, as good as people are and the numbers they put up as. As good as the numbers that these hall of Famers put up, if you're never in that position to have your legacy tarnished by losing a single game or a series, not making to the championship, I can't put you in that ring. I just can't. And again, I'm biased.

I'm going to let Alex respond to that as the Chicago guy, the LeBron as the goat. You know, it's tough, but I'm not going to ruin our episode here by, you know, digging in there, but I'll let Alex.

I don't. I don't. I don't disagree at all. I mean, I think you bring up a great point. Like, how can you have the conversation for the. The goat? Or, you know, when you start talking about, you know, these chunks of people that are. Are they the greatest or they're, you know, in these groups, if they haven't. Have they. When they've never hit the pinnacle, right? Like, they've never. As a team. These are team sports we're talking about, and they've never been to the top of the mountain. Right? Like, how can you. Even, regardless of how great their regular seasons are, how can you have that conversation? I think it's a fair argument, right? I mean, I think that. And that's what. I think that that's what intrigues everybody. Like, two. Right? Like, what. What is so special about these teams that can go get there, right. That can. That can get to the top of the mountain at climb Everest, right? And, like, what is it about them that makes them unique and, and absolutely. In a, In a. In a team sport if you've never accomplished that? I mean, I think it's. It's only fair to question. Right? Absolutely. The stakes that are involved. Right?

So Robby, what's his CEO equivalent? What is the CEO equivalent of having your foot over the coals and you got to put up or shut up, or your legacy is going to be tarnished forever.

Let's see. I thought you were going to ask a slightly different question, which is I. I thought you were going to say, like, in business, what is the equivalent of a championship? Right? And so maybe. Let me. I'll answer that and then I'll answer your question. I think the business equivalent of a championship is probably an ipo, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's probably being able to take a company public because I think it is, you know, it's very rare. It's very difficult. And it is something that, you know, people have a lot of pride in, you know, that kind of thing. So I think there's. There's some. I mean, it's not never the same. Like, you know, obviously sports are just, like, better on this dimension.

Spoken like a true venture guy.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Giving no credit to the already public companies that run the world.

I said. I said. But they all went public at some point.

You know, I don't. You say. I would, I would actually, like, flip this argument, Shane. Like, I feel like they definitely have more at risk, right? Like, they have real things at risk, right? Like, the company goes out of, like, business, right? Like, like, if I lost a bunch of games and we had a crappy year, like, oh, there's always next year, right? Like, like, there is no next year. If you, if you, like, you run out of money. Money, you go under, like, you're done.

This is where I totally agree with that. I think the big thing that's different is it's not as moment by moment. The difference that happens in sports is like, you know, like, the. If I don't perform right now, therefore, like, the game is lost. Like, business is just like a longer thing. And so it's like, if I don't perform over the next few months or six months, and CEO, same thing. Like a CEO in the hot seat, all that, like, that's very real. Like, you know, the company won't work. The company will get acquired. There's an activist investor. Like, there's like a bunch of moments. And I totally agree on that. It's the difference in sports is this, like, moment, you know, do you think.

Sales, Sales guys a little bit, live like this? And that's probably why there's a lot of sports guys in sales, right? Like, they got to hit their numbers, they got to deliver, right? Like, quarterly, annually. Right. Like, and I think they're driven a little like this, you know? Yeah, that's what you kill. Like, that's how they're, you know, kind of why.

I mean, like, going back to that, to your point, the public companies that run the world, right. Like, you know, hitting the quarter, you know, that kind of stuff. That's for sure there. But I guess I basically think it's just like the championship game is not 60 minutes long or 48 minutes long. Right. The championship game is a year long or two years long. And. And actually what's so funny is like the real thing you're trying to do as a CEO is create something that lasts for a long time. Like, Bezos has this great quote which is like, don't congratulate us when we have a great quarter because we didn't do anything for that three months that happened three years ago. Like, the seeds that we planted three years ago are showing up now. And so I do think, Alex, to your point, the biggest thing that is stressful for the leaders of companies is that, like, there's a lot of people whose livelihood depends on them doing a good job. Right. Like, you know, if they don't do well, there will be a big layoff. A bunch of people lose their jobs. Right. If they don't do well, the stock gets cut and, you know, 20 gets cut by 80%. Right. A bunch of people like, lose their retirement. I think that that stress is very, very, very real. And like CEOs age, like presidents, if.

You look at them.

Yeah. I think the commonality that I think like, that I see going back, like, Look, LeBron, I'm fascinated by like, he doesn't to your point, Shane, have this fear of failure, right. Like, he's. He's willing to show up.

He does.

He. No, but like, he does.

He's aware.

He just moves past it, right. Like, it's like taking the last shot of a game.

Yeah, he's aware of it.

Right. Like, you have to be very. To be good at that. You have to be very comfortable that you're going to miss.

Yes.

And the responsibility that comes with that. And I think the thing that I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, like every founder and. Or startup at some point, I mean, listen, we see them at the end these, these behemoth companies that then IPO and have grown into like, you know, behemoths. But at some point in their journey, there was like this inflection point, like a crosshairs that like, they did risk. There was a bunch of risk on the table, right. Like, they, it could have gone very easily. Could have gone under. And I think I'm that like, I think in order to operate in those situations, you have to have that same mentality, right? Like the, the fear of failure cannot be present at all. Right. Like you have to.

To embrace it and be okay with it. Like you said you have. I know I have it. And you have to be able to keep playing. Right? Because you guys have said you're. People feel it. Well, you meet it through it.

I think you meet it. Right. But like you're not, like you're not wallowing it in either. Right? Like it is what it is and you meet it and you, you move beyond it. I think that's kind of the, you.

Know, I think the big.

Not that I took a lot of game winning shots, Robbie.

So I don't know. You had that when, when we were in the airport that one time that guy talked about that run against the, the Saints. You know all that.

Yeah. Funny story. This is real quick, random story. I met chief's practice, I show up there. Training camp. It's still the old little college where I did my training camp. So it's kind of weird. And I walk in the, I walk in the locker room. I get there like practice has already started. I'm kind of late. And I walk in the locker room and there's only one guy in the locker room. And it's Travis Kelsey. Course like the, you know, played with him for five years. Of course he's like the last one out. And so we walk, we walk down to practice together and they have this. Have you seen these? Now these teams do this where they set up a camera. It's like a still camera on a tripod with like a question or a prompt or a riddle. Yeah. And so the guys walk by and so we're walking down the hill to practice and here's this camera. And we walked right by it and it was like, who has the best jump shot on the team?

Okay.

And so trap goes to me because there's a hoop, by the way, in the chief's locker room. They have like 20 foot ceilings.

There's a hoop.

And there's this constant games going on. And so Travis is like, he's like, I forgot Smitty. Like, how's your, how's your jumper? Like, do you have a good jumper? And I'm like, hell no. Like, I do not. And I'm like, trav, that's not me. Don't you know? Like, I'm the opposite. Like, I am the hustle defense. 50, 50 balls get a lot of rebounds. And he looks over to me, he says, oh, you're. You're a glue guy. Yes.

All right.

Yeah. Totally random. And I'm like. Like, I didn't. I didn't want to go into the whole thing, right? Like, I did it.

I.

Like, I was very tempted to go into the whole thing. And I didn't. Just kind of this stupid smirk on my face. And. And it's funny, I was always, like, asking him. I'm like, because he can shoot, he can play. And he was, like, telling the story. He's like, listen, on my high school team, I was the guy, right? Like, I took every last shot. And on my AAU team, I was a glue guy. Like, that was my role, right? Like, I didn't get to take the final shots, you know, and it was just the whole thing was a little bit of a trip. I thought it was a funny story.

Yeah, I think.

But I derailed our conversation.

No, no. I actually think the mistake, though, by the way, in business is that people, they. They assume that even the overnight successes are, like, done and they're successful. That the big thing, the biggest myth is that these companies that are giant, that run the world don't face these crazy moments. Even now. Like, you. Everything, everything at any company. You talk about Microsoft, when Satya Nadella took over, right, Was like losing in every way. Nobody great wanted to go work there. Satya Nadella has to turn it around. That's Microsoft. It was worth, like, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars. And it's like, turnaround. If you read his book Hit Refresh, it's all like, our culture was dead. Nobody, all the warring factions, even today, like, you look at Microsoft, they. It for them, it is existential to win AI. They are in the midst of, like, this huge moment. Same thing. You look at Meta. Meta stock price went down by 80% in the last three years. Like, the best investment you could have made. One of the best investments you could have made in the last few years was just like, buy Meta stock when it was one fifth of what it is now. But think about it. Like, that company was going through this crazy moment where it's like, they're going to get beat by TikTok. You know, their business is declining. They're spending all this money on the metaverse. Google's in the midst of one right now versus OpenAI. Like, even the companies that run the world, they actually still have these moments. Like, you're 25 years later. And so if you do think about Business in, like, I think if you look at it with any curiosity, what you really find is that even the successful ones, they're still in the midst of this, like, infinite game. That. And they're still not clear that they're going to win. Which is, that's the coolest part, I.

Think that's the fascinating correlation with business and sports, though, Like, I think is that, I mean, listen, we all. Same thing in both of them as viewers, we only see the outputs, right? Like, we only see these moments of triumph. We don't see any of the inputs, right? We don't know what makes them tick and how they got there, which is really the magic, like, it never ends. And that also, I think, speaks to why those teams are there, right? Like, it is that mindset, right? Like, again, it just, it. You're never, you're never going to reach that. And I think for all these teams, like, the focus is on the input constantly. Like, that's what they worry about, like the daily input. It's not, they're. They're not consumed with, again, I think, some destination.

That's the first rule of baseball. When someone's throwing a no hitter, you don't talk about no hitter, right? So even when things are rolling and I've been on, Look, I was on two teams, two teams, right, that won over 20 games in a row in the NBA. I'm the only player in the history of the NBA to have two winning streaks over 20 games. My Houston Rockets team back in 2008 won 22 in a row. And 2013, Miami Heat won 27 in a row. Okay, so talk about two historic winning streaks, all right? The. It's the second and third longest in NBA history, all right? Even then, you know, we knew we had a good thing going. And we're rolling and we're excited to play, but, like, by no means did we say, like, oh, man, we got to figure it out. We're good. Let's just, you know, just, just keep doing what we're doing, right? Which is, which is nuts. We won 20, 20 games in a row. We're like, man, we got. We got to bring it tonight, man. If we don't do it, we're going to get beat. And you know, that was a ma. Those are two magical winning streaks that were, they were crazy. When you get into a flow like that, it's almost hard to explain, but again, you're not dissecting it, you're accepting it. And, okay, what's next? Let's, let's keep, let's keep it going here. And then when you lose, finally lose. We lost to the Bulls in the m. Against the. When I was with the Heat, and we lost to the Celtics. When we lost to. We lost the Celtics with the Rockets. And after that, it was like, oh, like, you know, we gotta change everything. You know, this isn't good enough. The sky's falling, so you can't win for losing in this sport. You know, I've served on a few boards, and there's only been a one company that I've been on where it's been like, positive quarters over quarter over quarter, and everyone's like, this is pretty good. And it's the weirdest thing because I'm so used to going into a board meeting and being like, oh, man, like, you know, cogs are up or. Or, man, the interest rate's crushing us or. Or, you know, foreign exchange rates crushing. Like, you know, there's. There's always something. There's always something to address. There's always something to improve. And so it was finally nice to be part of a company that, you know, a couple times you're like, okay, good job. Hey, CEO, you did a great job. Right now, that is.

That is definitely not. I feel like in the startup world, there is no company. Even if things are good, basically what happens is the ambition just gets higher. And so you're never. You're never catching up to it because it's like, okay, cool. Like, we made. We made some progress. Now we had to shoot for something higher. And so, yeah, you, like, you never have. You never have a board meeting that, like, the people kind of leave feeling great about. You know, they don't tell you that.

When you sign up, though, you know, Exactly.

Like, it's just. You never. It doesn't exist.

I mean, as uncomfortable as it is, I think. But, like, that's that edge that we've talked about. Like, you have to kind of constantly keep it, right? And for companies, when they've hit these milestones, like, I think if they aren't turning their attention to the next, like, if they aren't moving the goalpost, so to speak, they'll have, like, their arc. They'll have an ARC and they're going to have this decline and die, right? Like, again, like, the lifespan of these companies, they're. It's finite. Unless there. You are constantly chasing something bigger, right? And like, unless you keep that kind of relentless pursuit.

Is there an alternative? That's. This is all we know. This is all we know. All we know right now. Is like, keep moving the goalpost. It's good. Like, what, what, what is the alternative? Like, in a, in a positive way, right?

I don't, I don't. I don't think there is one.

Well, I don't think I do. I did a lot of work with the, the Sports Organizational Dynamics Institute, University of Michigan, and they have a very, very interesting slant on, on business run out of the Ross Business School, and they do a lot of research based around the heliotropic effect.

Okay, now, the heliotropic, dude, guys, right here. I mean, good lord.

Heliotropic.

Did you notice? I didn't say anything in the semiconductor conversation, by the way. Just sat here.

You know, you got to read different things every now and then. The heliotropic effect is actually a, A term from biology. And basically everyone knows what it is. It's.

No, no, everyone does not know what it is. I have no idea what it is.

Where, what direction do plants grow?

Towards the sun.

Towards the sun.

All right. Heliotropic. All right? They are drawn towards the light of the sun. And so obviously the sun is the giver of life. And so, yeah, why wouldn't you want to go towards whatever gives you light? Right. If there's a heat source that's like a fire, where do the plants grow? They grow away from campfire sites, right? They grow away from things that are negative and destructive. Right. And so kind of the thesis behind the heliotropic business effect is like, leaders can operate in the same way. Like, if you want people to optimize into, to fulfill their greatness, are people going to grow towards whatever the workplace sunlight is? Yes. Are they going to grow away from whatever the workplace destructive force is? Absolutely right. And so, again, this is a counter mindset that we have on teams in leadership. If you look at the history of all medical research, right? Like, 98% of all medical research is based on getting the human population from poor health to moderate slash average health. Right? There's very, very, very, very, very little research about taking someone who has, you know, moderate to good health and getting them to optimal health. We're so wired to avoid pain and ultimate loss. You know, there's a real good argument in, like, hey, let's focus on, like, how do we squeeze out that extra couple percentage points on the other end of the spectrum. All right, things are going okay here.

Let's, let's.

Let's squeeze out a little bit more here. And, and it's, it's, it's a different way to think about how you lead, how you interact with people. And so, you know, with my kids, I try to explain this theory to them. So when I'm being a real, a real dad and uh, I'm, I'm not being heliotropic, they remind me, they said, dad, be more heliotropic, which I think is very wise for their, for their, for their age.

I'm fat. So on this note, I, I love that you brought this up because to me this, this is the deal with Tua. Right. Like again, so Tua came out and talked about his experience under Brian Flores, who was, I guess the campfire in your analogy of the plants. Yes. You know, and of a, of a.

I'm tough that you made an analogy there.

Well, that was a tough negative coach, you know, and he spoke about his experience there of like, you know, kind of being told that he wasn't good enough maybe and he didn't deserve it. Right. And like that how much that wore on him. And you know, now he plays for, for, you know, Mike McDaniel and who comes in and tells him how awesome he is. Right. And like what a great fit he is in the system and what a great tool set he has and how perfect he is for the Dolphins, you know, to be the Dolphins quarterback. And certainly he's flourished in that. Right. And he's, you know, I grown under that kind of positivity and warmth. I've never thought of it as a heliotropic plant perspective, but it's, it's no different. Right. Like the power of positivity. And you talk about this all the time, Shane, like certainly kind of the water cooler things like who provides energy in a company. Right. And that you do want to gravitate towards those people. You want to be, you know, sun, like.

Yeah. Be the sun.

Did that make any sense?

Be this. Yeah.

You have a puzzled look on your face.

Well, I mean. Well, I mean, Shane made two points, one of which I definitely agree with and one of which I'm not sure if I agree with yet. Okay, so the one I definitely agree with is the, like be the sun. Because ultimately if people don't want to be around your energy, if they're not inspired by it in one way or another, if they're not, if they don't want to do their best work because of your energy, like you're losing as a leader, period. And so that I wholly agree with. I'm definitely not going to use the word heliotropic because I'm not very comfortable in the Sciences. And so I leave that to the side. The thing I don't know is I think what you said at the beginning, which was sort of like, is there another way to live other than constantly trying to get more in a company?

Right?

Because I think the point was like, never satisfied, you know, keep on setting the bar higher, all that. I don't think in business there is another way to live. I don't think there is like a path. There is no equilibrium in my opinion. Like, I think that people have this opinion that like, I've thought about this a ton. There's in startups, they talk about this peacetime versus wartime mentality of like, are we in peacetime or are we in wartime? You have to behave really differently. I think it's just all bullshit. I think it's totally wrong. I think, I think you're only in wartime like the peacetime doesn't exist. And the reason is, I think the big thing that happens is people sort of have an assumption of like, tomorrow are we alive or are we dead? And if you believe that you're alive tomorrow, you actually can focus on the not most important thing because it's like, oh, it's all good, we'll get to it tomorrow. But the people that are the best in a startup or in any company, I think have an attitude of like, if we don't fix the most important thing now, we're dead tomorrow. And so my point, when I come back to business and this is what I was saying, I'm not sure if I agree with the first point, is I don't know if there is a way to operate in business and have any chance to ever be great without a general attitude of like, if I don't do it now, we will die. You know, like, I don't think there is an equilibrium that can exist. Whereas like in your life maybe there is, I don't know. But in business I don't think there is. And I actually think it's a huge mistake that people make consistently is, I.

Guess my like, is positivity a part of this? Well, like, I get what you're saying, like the edge and that we like the urgency. Yes, right. That, that, that, that you have to have. Yeah, I, I, I understand that. But, but like this whole idea of like, I, I do think you have to build the winning culture and the winning, like mechanisms before you become a winner.

Yep.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Right. Like, I, like that's the order of operations. You, you know, you don't win and then all of A sudden you're a winner. Like, you've created these things beforehand.

Yeah.

These like, standards and structure, and that's what leads to success. There is a level of positivity that you have to. Have to go, like, to go do that.

But this is why, you know, this, like, my, like, entire philosophy on this is stolen from Adam Grant. But, like, the demanding and supportive, like, you have to have both. And supportive to me is the positivity. And like, in the Flores example, what it sounds like is there's no support. Right. It's just demanding. It's just, you suck. And it's like, that doesn't work. Right. But I would say I don't think the all supportive works either. You also, for sure, it can't just be that you're a Pollyanna. Right. And so I think you need both for sure. But to me, the positivity has to be like, guys, we have a chance because you're so good, to be great. It would be such a shame to waste that chance.

Right.

Because we will be so happy for so long if we can earn that. But I do think you kind of have to start with, like. Like you said Shane before, like, the only chance you have to do anything great is to have great players. You should tell them that they're great, but then you should hold them to a standard of being great. Even parents that we would witness, like, we all have friends who, like, we have people who were around who, like, only are nice to their kids. There's this whole thing of, like, don't ever say no to your kids.

I'm like, their kids are usually assholes.

Yeah, exactly, right? And then there's other people who are just, like, ridiculous to their kids. And they're never, like, kind. They're just tough all the time. And you're like, that doesn't work either. So. But I think people are definitely experimenting with one or the other. And I think it's crazy.

You know, I. I live the heliotropic effect from my dad. And he did, like, one of the greatest things for me. My dad, Big Ed Badier, was always known because he always had his book of stats every. Every little league game. He went to every basketball game, every football game. And, like, that's why I, like, I love math and data as a kid because, like, he taught me, like, batting averages and ERA and all these things. Well, he was like the official statistician. And for my basketball games, never coached me in basketball, always my baseball, football coach. But I'd play a game, and after the game. He would show me the stats he was taking and I'd come off and I'm like 9, 10, 11 years, whatever years old. All right? And I would come off, he's like, man, you had like 32 points, 26 boards and like 15 blocks has.

That's pretty good, you know, And I.

Was like, that's pretty, that was basically.

My stat line too when I was pretty good.

But like at the time, like I thought that was real. I had no frame of reference of like, like how hard a block shot is or how hard it is to grab 10 rebounds. I was like, I knew I was like, good, I was the best player out there. But like now looking back at it, like, there's no way I could have put up those numbers in a 32 minute in a game. And youth basketball, right? And so my dad like, and I don't know if it was like intentional, but like he filled me with such amazing confidence. Like, yeah, this is the baseline. 30, 32, 25 and 15. That's, that's like a normal game for you, Shane. And like, I believed it, I believed it, like that was normal for me. And so I grew up. It wasn't until like I got to high school and later when they have official stats and you understand, okay, like 10 rebounds a game is a heck of a game and heck of an average. And I'm like, wait, was my dad lying to me all these years? But like, you know, it did the trick. I had this belief and I wasn't like a super confident kid and I was never a cocky kid by any stretch. But like, I'm like, yeah, these are the baseline, these are the baseline numbers for me. And so, you know, I lived heliotropism and you know, for all the parents out there, you know, lie your ass off when you're watching your kids games, you know, there's, there's very, very little downside until you get into high school and they understand what the, what the real baseline of stats are for their sports.

I can't. All I'm Picturing is like 11 year old Shane, who must be like a whole foot and a half taller than everybody. Just like Dikembe Mutombo and all these little kids out there just crushing a bunch of mom crushing souls out there.

You know, Totally just. It wasn't outlandish. It wasn't like, this is a ridiculous, it wasn't like 25 blocks. It was like 15, like, okay, I might have gotten 15. Okay, so it was, it was, it was within reason, but 15's a lot.

Imagine these poor little kids who got.

I know, just baddie ages dominating these dudes. These guys are probably like you said, a foot and a half shorter. I think that the thing also that your dad did there, that I do think is a big important part, is like, you have to figure out what personality the person has and what their actual thing is. There are people that are really like, they need to be built up. They need that confidence. There's other people who are cocky and they need to kind of be brought down a notch, you know what I'm saying? Like you, you, you. And I have no idea. I'm tua, right? None. Zero. But like, you kind of have to figure out what makes them get that motor going and then the job is to like bring it out of them, you know, rather than I talk about this all you get, you can't play one note as you have to actually change it. And your dad, like, he must have noticed that you, like, needed to know you were so good, you know, And.

I think this is a common thing. Again, like, not to come back to it, but like in football with the Brian Flores and the TUA thing and this is at universal, but like defensive coaches, defense is a tough. It's tough, man. Like, it is an aggressive. It is an aggressive like Hunter's mentality. Right? Like these guys, and that's often what gets coached over there. They get coached hard and all of a sudden now you flip. And on the other side of that spectrum, Ravi, like what you're saying, a first round pick quarterback dealing with expectations, and he definitely maybe has doubt on whether or not he's good enough. And all of a sudden a defensive head coach is just beating him down, thinking that he may respond like a.

Yes.

You know, a middle linebacker. And that's just not the same. They're just so different. That's such a unique thing about football. Right? Like a D tackle's job is so much different than like a quarterback's job, yet we play the same sport. And, and I think that your point, like, you just, you, you can't treat them the same at all.

Do you explain along the Flores line, do you explain Brady having success with Belichick? Because Brady was like, he was kind of middle linebacker. Ish. Right?

Well, no, definitely.

Right.

And I think this is the other.

Thing, you know, headbutting guys. He was like an aggressive quarterback, right?

Really? Really? Yeah, I think definitely. Mentally, you know, and in a different place. I don't think Brian Flores was there for rookie Brady. Yeah, he he caught the last 10 years of Brady, which at that point had already won three Super Bowls. And I think Belichick often used as an example, and he coached. He coached Tom really hard as an example for the whole team. That, like, nobody was above this. But I don't think he did that as a rookie for Tom. Like, I think he definitely brought Tom along, right? And then that even evolved over the arc of his career. And you're exactly right that I think even the personalities are different. There certainly are guys that come in the league that are incredibly confident, borderline cocky at quarterback.

Alex, the football thing is so. I thought so much about what you said. A few. You guys both said it like. Like offensive football is a ballet, right? Like, the coordination that you are doing is just insane. And defensive football is a hunt. Just like. Just like. So what you just said of just. Even at the most basic level, the way you coach somebody who's about to try and go on a hunt versus the way you coach somebody who's about to and coordinate a ballet, those are really, really, really different, like, jobs to be done. And then within the offense, like you said, oh, there's some people whose job is to protect. There's other people's whose job, like the wide receiver versus the dt. And so it's just like this incredible difference in people, you know, and even within, like, offense, defense. And it really goes back to, like, you. You have to, like, know the person. And then the other thing that's crazy is you have to know that the same person might need to be coached differently at different times, right? Because people gain confidence and grow in a certain way, and then they start having higher expectations, all that. And so this is why it goes back to your point from a few episodes ago, and you kind of laughed when I described someone as a people leader. You're like, that's the only kind of leader that there is, right? Like, the only real leaders are people leaders. And it actually goes back of, like, that's the only answer. That's the answer in business, too. Like, in my world, right? You might have somebody who's on the same management team. You might have somebody who's made enough money, right? And so money is not the motivator anymore, right? You might have somebody who. This is their first go around, and they got it, they need it to work, and all they want is the dollars, right? You might have somebody who's motivated by the success of their. The team underneath them. It's just totally. And it's very specific. And you can't use the same strategy on each of them. And I think football is like a much better example than most because there's so many players on the team that play.

And I think it gets lost a lot in coaching because there's so much focus on the X's and O's.

Right?

And Shane, you talk about this all the time with Coach K. Like that's actually maybe was his biggest strength and certainly something that he intentionally turned as a focus to. But like so often we get enamored by like it's the triangle offense, you know, or it's this, it's the west coast offense. When in fact that probably has actually very little to do with the championships. More so than, than the people part of it.

We call it individualized consideration. One of the most exhausting things for any coach and any leader and Coach K was I actually talked to Coach K today and still to this day he's 77 years old and he's asking me questions where I have to look inside myself and be like, oh, what do I really think? And so you never turn those genes off, whether you're a parent or a friend or a coach or retired. The first time I ever went to Cameron, it's a very special place for me. Didn't lose too many games. I think I lost four years. I think I can count one, two, three, four games in four years. So it was a house of horrors.

Amazing energy, humble flex right there.

It was a hard place to win.

I will tell you. I think that was just a flex. I'm not sure there was any humility in the flex there. I think it was just a straight flex.

I'm proud of that. I'm not, you know, that's hard to do. So I'm proud of that.

I mean Shane, you won the second most games of anyone in NCAA history. Like you, that, that's, that's what, that's what you.

Number. Who's number one? Who's number one?

And then when you, you know, talk about people who had a four year career, I've won the most games in NCAA history. So the story is there's a guy from Gonzaga, Primo's. Brezich. No, not Primus. Brisich. I forgot his name.

Five year guy.

Five. Yeah.

And didn't play a lot. Great.

Great programming.

Exactly.

Great. So nothing but respect from Mark Few. Great program. They won a lot of games. And I, I graduated Duke winning 131 games.

Okay.

No one won more games in four year period than I did. So we won a lot of games. And there was, you know, all these guys, guy from Ohio state, guy from Kansas, a couple guys, freaking zag. Always got close, you know, but I felt like Mercury Morris, you know, whenever someone got close, I said, don't call me when you're on my block. Call me when you're at my front door. Right? And you know, sure enough, a player from Karnowski, I believe his name is, in his fifth year at Gonzaga. Surpassed my all time wins record. And so now he's the all time winning this college basketball history player in history. But I would add with an extra year.

You want to put the asterisks on it.

There's no asterisks. He's the all time winning this. He's won more games than anybody. I just, I'm happy that I did, I did my damage in four years.

Presmic Karnowski.

Yep.

For a quick winner.

Winner.

Winner.

Absolutely. Winner.

Shout out to president.

Yeah, Shane was saying, you know, you special. Special. First time you went to Cameron, special. Even. Even before you'd won all the games.

But a funny story, the first time I went to Cameron, I was there on a unofficial visit with my coach, high school coach. We drove down. So North Carolina saw Duke. Well, Duke. Duke's like this fortress. Cameron's like this fortress and there's never any open doors.

You drove from Detroit?

Yeah, did a college tour and I was a sophomore.

Is this an official? Okay, like unofficial.

And we get, we got to Cameron, it was like 9 o' clock at night. So all the, you know, all the lights are off, all the doors were locked. So I'm like racing feverishly. I mean, you know, I'm here, I love Duke. I just want to see Cameron indoor stadium. And so I found like one like exit door that was like cracked open a little bit. So I jimmy it open and I go in. The whole place is dark. And at Duke they used to have these huge like long, like, I don't know, 20 foot, 30 foot, like felt banners on one end with all the retired jerseys and then on the other end all the championship banners. Well, on Cameron that night, those are the only things that were lit up. So I look up, it's all dark and I see, you know, Danny Ferry, number 35, Christian Laitner, 32, Grant Hill, 30, you know, 33. And I look up and the first time I saw it and I said, Huh, 30 seemed like a pretty good number. I'm going to be number 31 and I'm going to retire that jersey. That was the first time I ever went to Cameron and in high school I wore 55. It was the biggest jersey. But I said, I'm going to come to Duke, I'm going to wear 31 and I'm going to retire that jersey.

Dude, that's a sick story. Even Alex, as a Duke hater, is impressed with that.

Is it retired?

And sure enough, I had a pretty good career, you know, four years, 131 games. And my jersey was retired in my, one of my last home games my senior year. So if you go to Cameron, you see, you see one more 30 off the board. So I did my job trying to close out the 30s.

Dude, that's awesome.

Very freaking cool.

That's awesome. Alex, is your number retired at Utah? Do they retire football players numbers in college?

So you cannot retire football player numbers. There's too many players. So, like in college, that's why, like, there's so many guys on the team. That's why you'll see, like, even in college, offensive and defensive guys, there's like two number twos. Yeah, they just have so many bodies. So you can't actually retire another.

Shane, when you, when you got inducted into the Duke hall of Fame, did you feel the same thing? What was there? Or did you already feel it with the number retiring? You know, like.

I was at that point, I had already gone into the College Basketball hall of Fame, so. So the first question is, why? Why do I have to go to the Duke hall of Fame? Second after the national.

Just kidding. You bring up a good point. It's funny. So, like, I ran, I gotta tell this story. I found out I was going into College Football hall of Fame on air with Randy Moss.

Oh, no way.

Who?

I've played.

I, I happen to play with him, you know, like this guy, he's a gold jacket. Like, I mean, he's the first ballot. He's one of the greatest football players of all time. And not to like, de. Minimize the College Football hall of Fame, but he had a very similar, like, kind of like pretty serious. Like, like I'm already in the Pro Football hall of Fame. Like, you know, like, what, what the hell took you guys so long? Like, there should be an order here. Like, it should escalate, you know, like, like. And honestly, I kind of find it pretty perplexing too. I'm like, wait, he's not already in. Like, what are we doing? Yeah, you know, it's funny.

It's funny, guys, I don't know.

These are these, these are, these are.

These are, these are first World Problems?

No, no, no. Whatever is above the first world. These are Dom Perignon problems. The order of the hall of Fame that you enter.

Honestly, though, Robbie, like, you know, it's. It sounds like, super cliche, but, like, you know, I'm sure I speak for Alex. Like, we're just proud of our body of work. Like, you know, totally. The hall of Fame is unbelievable. The Ring of Honor, unbelievable honor. And I'm. I'm happy people still remember who I am and are excited when they see me and. Oh, you know, I used to watch you as a kid, you know, make me feel real old, you know, but, like, the joy was, like, in the grind and the games we won, the teammates we play with, and the big games that we played in and won and lost and. And so, you know, when you're. When you're old lions like us, you know, you're still. You're still doing it. You're still in the game and doing it. You know, those things are just for nostalgia purposes, right?

Did you.

Did you see the CJ McCollum thing he wrote when he got traded from Portland? Yeah. Dear Portland Alex. It's on the Players Tribune. It's really good. He just, like, wrote a letter to Portland when he got traded to New Orleans. And the best part about it, like, he writes this, like, kind of. It's like this moment, and he had just become a father, too, so it was really cool because it was like a love letter. But it was like, you know, talking about growing up and talking about giving back and talking about becoming a father. You could just, like, it was a really cool moment to, like, get into somebody's head, basically, for what you're saying. And the thing that he said. And Chen, you just talked about, like, you know, the thing that matters is the body of work and then the teammates and the grind. Like, there's this section where he talks about, like, thank you. And then he does. Basically makes it its own paragraph, and he's like, for my teammates. And, like, it's like, the biggest part of the. Thank you. And then he, like, just goes through each of them of the people that meant something to him. And you just, like, got like, a real window for someone like me who's never played. Right? Like, you get this window of, like, the thing that mattered to him at the end is just, like, the guys that were on his team, you know, and the relationships that he built with them. And you both have talked about, like, the thing you miss is the bus, right? The thing you miss is, like, those moments and I. So I actually agree with. From a distance, your point makes sense to me. Like, it's not about the accolades. It's like the in between moments that you guys got to have with people. Like, that feels like the real thing that, like, you look back on with pride, you know? Right.

Would you agree, Alex?

Yeah, I mean, I think I would add I. In like, the. Again, to go back to what we were talking about earlier, though, it's. It's not just being around them. Right. Like, we could go hanging out, all of us, and occasionally we do from time to time. And it's great to see them and it's great to reminisce, but it's, like, not the same as when you were in it.

Yeah.

And I think the stress and urgency of the sport and like, when. It's probably similar to, like, companies when you're really in it and like, that, again, you have that sense of urgency. Like, everything. Everything's heightened, right? Everything's heightened. And even those bonds are heightened because you're going through those things together, like, the unknown together, the ups and downs together. And that's what I think really makes that kind of obviously so special to. To go through that stuff.

And.

Yeah, so I. I think that's what makes it. Again, those things are so heightened. Right. Like, you're getting. You're trying to do these really hard things, and, you know, your. Your boys next to you, you know, along the way, that's.

That's. That's what you see when I walk in a camera and I'm. You know, I show my kids that I used to be somebody. But, like, you look up, you know, you remember the journey, you remember the teammates, you remember the games, you remember the. The bus rides, you remember the wind sprints. Like, that's. That's the fun part of. Of. Of all this. It's great to be recognized.

I have, like, a very nerdy take on this, but I think I'm right. Okay, so, one. Have you guys ever read the poem Ithaca?

No.

So you read it? I have it, like, printed out framed in my office. Okay. This is Alex. Sorry. Like, this is like the Shane Heliotropic. I'm gonna go for a second. But, like, read it. Read Ithaca. Basically, like, this whole point of, like, it's all about the journey. Like, that's the. So what of it. But it's like a beautiful. And the thing that I actually think the reason people are interested in sports is what we've done is we've compressed life into, like, this, like, sports just a super compressed version of life, right? You know, you are going through highs and lows. You have like real moments. It's just that it happens in such a short period of time that you get to like, witness it and you get to be a part of it or whatever. But, like, the whole reason people like it is it's like the most compressed version of the drama that is your life. And people love seeing it. And I think that it's why I think it's universal. It's why I think it's worked forever and why I think it will continue to work, because people care about what other humans do and how they experience life. And so that's why I think people like sports. It's just like we compressed a hundred year or ninety year life into 48 minutes or 60 minutes.

That's it.

It's a nerdy take, but I believe.

Sam.