Wright Thompson - Uncovering the Human Behind the Headlines - [Glue Guys, EP.34]

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You know, there's a great thing Bill Russell said. Your craft is how you find the best in yourself. I just find that so interesting, those things that are hiding in plain sight about craft. And so like, part of me thinks I want my kids to see me obsessed with a craft. I want them to know that.

In.

The preface to the cost of these Dreams, I would summarize the preface as something effectively like, all the people I profile have demons and are messed up and I'm messed up too, you know, and therefore I am uniquely privileged and uniquely suited to write about them. You know, I feel like that's an insight that affects all of our lives. And you know, in a big way. I'm curious as to when you realize that you had some things in your own life that would make you uniquely suited to write about these folks.

The most awkward thing in the entire world is walking into a room with someone you're going to write about and you don't know them and they don't know you. And it's inherently awkward and fraught and almost never results in sort of any sort of real human experience. And so I just started a long time ago feeling like I need to find one thing at least I have in common with whoever it is I'm going to go sit down with. And when we can stand on this tiny postage stamp of ground together, then we can try to sort of Figure something out. I mean, I was just with Jason Tatum from the Boston Celtics and we really connected over the idea that, you know, it takes me four years to write a book. I think I can probably write books at a high level until I'm 70 and then that means I've got five left and like that's five swings. And so like I wanted to talk to him about his experience of time and having arrived at the age where everything you've ever wanted is now there for you to either get or lose. And like, I was interested in that energy. I just always want to have a shared experience with somebody. You know, it's weird because you know what I always tell people when they sort of try to complain about like, this is really invasive. Why are you writing about me? I'm like, look, man, there were people who wrote poems about the gladiators. Like, this has been going on for 2,000 years. They're always 20 of you and 100 of me. And that has been true for 2,000 years. It's like complaining about the weather. Like, it just is, you know, this is so like I, I just wanted. I just like, I think we're all in the process of self discovery and of trying to know ourselves before it's too late and sort of, you know, I don't know what your guys fathers are like, but like, you know, wanting to, trying to figure out what of him I wanted to carry forward forward and what of him needed to die with me.

Yeah.

You know that when I think about him and my own kids. So I just sort of feel like every story is an accidental byproduct of or exhaust fume of me just trying to have earnest, real human interactions with people. I mean, I know that's like a foo foo. No, but like, but that's like, I mean that, you know, I mean, I just went into too many rooms and had too many transactional conversations and just felt shitty about them all and was just like, this isn't working.

Like, I mean, you have just literally described the entire reason that we're friends, the entire reason we have this podcast like that we're just tired of the transactional. And I think why we're attracted to you for beyond your talent and beyond the stories you've told about people that we care about. But like it's that the authenticity just.

Comes right through and you just won't like everybody. One of the beautiful things to me about sports is that you have a group of people who have nothing in common except the fact that they all sort of hit the genetic lottery. And so there's every. You know, I mean, in a locker room or a clubhouse or whatever, there's every kind of person in the world. And usually what I find is that they're intensely. And I'm just. I'm curious, sort of what Alex thinks about this, because, like, it feels to me that what you're doing is watching intensely personal things play out in the most public possible way. And, like, that energy was always really interesting to me.

Well, I think even you hit it with the Jason Tatum thing. Like, time is inherent in this, right? Like, everybody else's career arc is. Is a little bit like yours. Like, they can work until they're 60, 70 years old, and a lot of times, like, their power and wage goes up, right? Like, as athletes are completely inverted, right? Like, all this up front, you get. You have this short window. I mean, the NFL, the average career span is less than three. Three years. Like, you. You get a catastrophic injury. Like I had, like, if I'd have gotten it 15 years earlier, like, my life's different. And so you don't know how many opportunities you're going to get. And then the inherent, like, you hit it. There's a scoreboard, right? Like, every game, every week, there's a scoreboard. There is a win and a loss, and nobody else lives like that, for the most part, right? Like, you, you know, you. You go along in your life and you don't get that feedback that often, and you certainly aren't doing it in front of millions of people.

You know, I talked about this with Joe Montana, who, you know, is very involved in the VC world. He's friends from. From the Y Combinator, and he just finds it deeply unsatisfying because there's no scoreboard. And, like, you don't, you know, like, I find him to be really interesting because he is still struggling with what it means to have been Joe Montana and, like, his thing. What about as well as it could go. He hates George Seifer so fucking much still that it's palpable in person. Yeah, it is unbelievable. And I sort of was like, oh, that's why. Oh, he's not letting it go because he's fucking Joe Montana. You know what I mean? Like, of course he's not, but, like, I find that to be really real around anyway. I don't know. I agree with you. I think that's really interesting.

I think it's something that I. I know Joe well. It was fun.

It was.

I got to hang with him in New Orleans. At the Super Bowl.

He's so cool.

And I'm, but, and I'm buddies with Steve and like, so I know both these guys so well and they're, they've been so good to me. And these are, these are two of these guys. I told these guys, like, I got drafted number one. These guys haunted me, right? Like, like I tried to live up to what they did and it obviously fell short and it, it had such a big impact on me. But they're amazing people. And both these guys are wired. I mean, and, and these are the guys you write about, these people that, that are wired like this, that are obsessive. You know, for me, I've found it hard since retiring. This is my fourth year out of football and I tell these guys like, I, I, I, I feel like I dabble in stuff, right? Like I do some speaking and I do some investing and I podcast and I do some ESPN analysis and like I have all this stuff and I, I don't go deep on anything anymore. And I was consumed by quarterbacking for 25 years and it's gone. And now I'm like, it's different.

Do you think you don't go deep because you're just, the things you're dabbling in, don't have the dopamine hit or the, the difficulty of your old job? Or do you think you're protecting yourself because you know what it takes when you go all in?

I'm definitely protecting. Like, I, I think, like, listen, there was a trade off. My wife and I talked about it all the time. Like, you, you knew football was going to end and, and it took. I mean, my wife has sacrificed so much.

Yeah.

My kids have sacrificed so much. We've moved across the country and back multiple times. The commitment it takes. You can't sit on the fence and, and play quarterback in the NFL and you know, to, to play pro sports and like it demanded, I mean, you to be all in. And I think there was, there was a willing trade off for my family that again, it wouldn't last forever.

Yeah.

And so the crazy part is though, I retired. I played 16 years. You retire at, you know, 37. I, I'm not going to sit on a beach and drink my ties the rest of my life.

No.

So like, what, what the hell, what do you do though?

I, I mean, you know, I, I was at the, I was at Gary players last Masters and I was in the, the press room when he finished his press conference and just because of where I was sitting, I ended up so this happens sometimes in this job. You see really intimate moments that you should never be allowed to see. I was standing right there, and he comes off the stage and his wife is there. And the first thing she says to him, and I wish I could get the tone of voice right, because it killed me, but what she said was, can we go home now? And it fucking killed me. Like, I was just like, oh, my God. Like, oh, my God. You know, and so it's that thing you're talking about. It's like, hey, we were there, you know, I. I sat down with Jennifer Montana and sort of talked her through the story I was going to write about Joe. And she said, I think you're being too easy on him. Because I was sort of making the case that he had. He had left it behind. And she was like, he has not. You need to go back to the drawing board. You know, but it's just interesting. It's a. I'm fascinated by it because these jobs are so singular. And like I said, I mean, I almost think you shouldn't be allowed to watch sports on TV because people are risking so much.

No, no, we talk a lot about too. Like, I think in anything, in authenticity, there's like, speed to trust, right? Like, there's this ability. I think great leaders, they get to speed to trust faster with their. Their teams and getting them to buy in. But, like, you almost have the same dilemma. Or, like, you've got to. Can make this connect and get, you know, break down. I mean, in order to peel back the onion right there, there's got to be trust. And so how do you. How do you. How do you do it?

I mean, I think 1. I think it's you. I mean, I mean, I'm curious because this will be interesting because you can say whether this would have worked on you. Like, but, you know, I think you want to show people by what you're asking that you have thought about them in a serious, complex, earnest way. Like, I'm. You know, a lot of my questions are, hey, it seems like this. Is that right? And if that's wrong, why is that wrong? Or, you know, it's. You know, it seems that, you know, I asked Michael Jordan because I'd read a bunch about Mickey Mantle, and it seemed like there were parallels between Michael Jordan and Mickey Mantle's interior lives. And Mickey Mantle was always obsessed with the fact that he was convinced he was going to die young. And it affected every single decision he made. And so I sort of. I just. On the flyer, I was asked Michael. I was like, hey, did you like, do you ever think you're gonna die young? And he was just like, yeah, like. And then he was off. And so, I mean, I just think it's like trying to indicate to people that one you've thought about them in an earnest way. I always say the same thing you said, Robbie. Like, I always say, look, this is not a gotcha. If you want to text me tomorrow and be like, hey, I need to walk that back. Like, let's talk about it. Like, I'm here. I'm trying to find out a complex truth about something. I'm not trying to catch you slipping. Like, so. So, like, you know, and I think that helps. And I also. Everybody's favorite subject is themselves.

We've been fucking taught to not trust you. Like, I've been coached. I was the most boring interview when I played, like, because I was literally conditioned to not trust media members. Right. Like, don't let them in guard. And yet you've. You've broken down the walls on some. I mean, like these. These crazy figures. Like, one of them that I know intimately. Like, I don't know how you got Urban, you know, to. To say yes to that.

A lot of time with Urban Meyer, man.

Yeah.

Urban Meyer story is. I didn't even know Urban at all before Alex introduced us to him. But that. That's a haunting story as a father. Haunting story. As an ambitious person. Right.

I was in his first team meeting with his first recruiting class where he flipped out and started calling him Giggle Fucks. It was like one of the all time. Like, I was like, this is, like, this is incredible.

Sb, welcome.

Thank you. I apologize for being late. Life gets in the way. Life gets in the way 100%.

Right. Okay. So it wouldn't have been intuitive to me that Jason Tatum would be a good subject.

So.

So I'm interested in this because to me, when I see Jason Tatum, amazing player, but somebody who, you know, he. I wouldn't have been obvious. To me, he has the depth that you would talk about. The complex, you know, find a complex learning. How'd you choose him so well?

So I'm doing a thing about the Celtics because three things are happening there at the same time that are interesting to me. The. Because of, like, the second apron and all of the insider NBA stuff. This team has a window. Yep. And you know, Tatum and Jalen Brown are, I think, 28.

Yep.

4. They're under contract until they're 32. So, like, that's interesting. You know, I met Wick the owner. This is a long story. I'm an enormous, obsessive, embarrassing Grateful Dead fan. And so I went to a ton of shows out at the Sphere in Las Vegas and I was having these big lunches every day at 3:30 and they would get out just in time for the venue to open and us to go. And so somebody brought wit to one of my lunches and sat by him and I just was utterly charmed by the way he talked about what about just his inner nine year old over the fact that he gets to sort of be the curator of the Celtics myth for a brief period of time. And, and I just thought that like I really liked that. And so I was into the idea that this team is in this incredible time of change. But the main way it's in an incredible of time of change, starting with John Havilchek's funeral, those guys have been dying one after another. John Hav died, Casey Jones died, Sam Jones died, Tommy Hindson died. And then like all of the, like, you know, one after Bill, then Bill Russell died. Yes. There are only two guys left of that dynasty and it's Satch Sanders, who Shane obviously knows from the NBA, who I love. Satch's wife just Jen just died and he's in a nursing home in Worcester. And then he's a great guy. And Satch is also like philosopher king. And so all of the young players in the current Celtics talking about the struggles of their present life, it becomes really interesting when that's woven together with old men trying to consider what it meant. And for Satch Sanders and for, you know, Satch and Bob feel like there's this really powerful life force that once strode across the world like a titan. And, and now the only memory of it is in their memories. And so it's this once incredibly powerful thing that has become fragile and finite in the memories of these two old men. And so like I thought that the way those things talk to each other was interesting. So Tatum, it's a story with a lot of different characters, but I wanted to talk to Jason about. He's met Larry Bird obviously, but he's also met Cousy and he met Bill Russell. And so it was interesting to talk to him about those guys and then about his own experience of time and feeling a window closing. And so like those things talk to each other. I basically tried to write a 75 year history of an entire franchise. I don't know if it worked. It might be terrible. It hasn't come out yet, but. But that Was, to answer your question, Ravi, that's how that happened. Yeah. Great.

Do you get the sense that the modern Celtic understands what the Celtics meant for you? And I. I mean, look, you know, I was a story of the game. I grew up in Detroit. You know, I love. I loved the Pistons. I hated the Celtics. I hated the Lake. I hated the Bulls. But, like, the Celtics meant something, you know, to, I think, our generation and us. Do you get a sense that these. These younger generation can. Can get a glimpse of what that Celtic dynasty, what that Celtic franchise means, meant to us.

Means to us.

So it's interesting. And I don't know them well, and so I don't. I hope I'm not, like, speaking out of school on somebody, but, like, I think Jalen Brown has a much. I think he really, really understands. You know, I think Jason, to be fair, Jason is in the middle of the white hot moment of being Jason Tatum. You know, one of the. But, like, one of the things that was interesting is that, you know, Bob Cousy and Bill Russell had a fraught relationship, and it was because they were Ruth and Gehrig, but they both wanted to be Ruth. And so one of the things that's interesting is a couple of people have said, you know, Bob Cousy in his old age feels incredibly guilty that he didn't weaponize his celebrity in sort of Irish Catholic Boston to try to blunt some of what Bill was dealing with. And it was like. And he feels really, really guilty about it. And the explanation for everybody, it's not that Bob Cousy was a bigot. It's that Bob Cousy was too busy being Bob Cousy to really have the bandwidth to understand how another human being was feeling. And so, like, it's interesting also to see what time reveals and what it takes away. I mean, I love that thing in the Bible about, like, you know, was it see through the glass darkly? Like, there's something about. There's something about time that allows you to see yourself clearly. And so I actually think it's really cool that Bob Cousy, as opposed to trying to be the central architect of his own myth, is sort of actively not doing that. I think that's really interesting that somebody at 96, you know, he sent Bill Russell a copy of Ta Nehisi Coates, his book between the World and Me. Like, I think that's really interesting that Bob Cousy is sending that book to Bill Russell. Like, I think that's like, teammates means a lot more than stepping onto a Court and winning a title like these guys are. You know, there's this great speech that Bruce Springsteen gave when he inducted the E Street Band into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, and he's talking about being in a band. But it felt to me how I've heard people describe teams, because he was just like, you celebrate with each other, you mourn with each other, you hurt each other in big and small ways. You like there. Anyway, it just kind of makes the hair stand up on my arm. And, like, I really felt like that these Celtics get that, you know, Sam Cassell really gets it. Like, he was really interesting. Sam was talking about how, how Paul Pierce especially has been coming around more since the older guys started dying. And he, he's like, he was just sort of wondering if that was why or if it was random, you know, if it was just a time in his life when it was time to live in nostalgia and come back. I don't know. I mean, it's interesting. I just think teams are really fascinating, and I think cultures are really fascinating. I mean, you know, I. Shane. I mean, I spent a bunch of time with, with Coach K in his last year, and it was, you know, just to feel some, you know, they, they, they walled up the staircase in the office so he couldn't go down the back stairs. Like, Duke basketball's offices are on the fifth floor, right. Of that building. Shane.

Yeah.

And, and Coach K's office is on the sixth floor, and there was a back staircase that led from his office down to everyone else. And it's my understanding that that staircase has been walled off. And I feel like it's him protecting himself from his own worst impulses.

But, like, there's a metaphor in there somewhere. I think so. So there's a metaphor. I'm not smart enough to know what that is.

Me either. Me either. But, yeah, maybe he could tell us, because I certainly don't know.

You write a lot about, certainly, I think these athletes that are ambitious and obsessive in these coaches and that are flawed. Right. And then, like, the things that, that I think take them to such great heights in the sports world, obviously certainly come from some, from some scars or, or, you know, scar tissue, so to speak, and, and certainly also lead to an imbalance off the field.

Right.

Are these things that I, I just, I'm so curious, like, do you, do you battle with these same things, this idea of, you know, you have two, two kids and, like, do you. Home life and on the road and working and like, obviously it's Again, we just talked about, it's amazing to go deep on something, right like and have passion but at the same time there's, you know, said it, there's a cost.

My father was at home every night and every time I'm sitting in a hotel I'm going to, I'm gonna get off this conversation in a little bit and I'm gonna go to a hotel where I am tonight. And like every time I do that I'm like, what am I doing? Like at some point, at some point this isn't supporting your family. At some point this is vanity. At some point this is ego. At some point it is much simpler to be the two dimensional version of me that goes and does these stories as opposed to dealing with like hard parenting. My 7 year old daughter about 30 minutes ago called my 4 year old daughter a loser and I don't know how to fucking parent that. Do you know what I mean? Like writing a story about a driven athlete is easy. Going home kids is hard. And, and so like, I don't know the degree to which I'm running. Like I don't know. But I think about that all the time and like, you know, one of the reasons I'm interested, I guess maybe I feel like if I talk to enough people like this that I'll learn maybe, you know, it's interesting. Like there's a former athlete, guy named Dale Murphy who played for the Atlanta Braves who was, he was enormously famous and, and then he just sort of wasn't and I spent a bunch of time with him and he is two things. One, he's the only fully content former sort of MVP level athlete I've ever met. And he went, he went out of his way when he retired to kill the avatar and like did it in a specific way of like, you know, he went and ran the Mormon mission in Boston. Like that's a hard thankless job that, you know. And he said he went out of his way to sort of kill the avatar of Dale Murphy superstar because he just felt like that person was going to get in the way of everything he wanted to do for the rest of his life. So the problem for me, I mean, not to compare myself to Dale Murphy, that's not what I mean. But the problem for me is like I sort of thought after I wrote that story like I'd unlocked the secret to life and even I can't do it. Like I know what to do. I just can't make myself do it.

Right, can I, can I say something that is Definitely self indulgent to say it, but when you were talking, it, like, spurred a big thought for me. So for me, the worst moments of my professional career are the moments where I feel like it's like, exposes that I'm being selfish and it's vanity and it's not for the family. Right. Because you're, like, working like crazy and you. You're actually not doing something that they value or want. And so you're like, man, I'm. This is not who I think I am. You know? And so I totally. The worst moments in Instacart by far were like that. Where it's like, I'm just like, taking this thing on. And it's for me, it's not for them. I think the thing that has made that a little better for me is like, realizing that my wife and our spouses don't expect us to be perfect. They just expect us to be honest. Like, you don't actually have to be always doing something for the good of the family. You just have to tell them the. I think you just have to tell them the fucking truth, which is like, you know what I'm saying? And I think that that has. That, I think has been a big thing that's helped me on that topic, which I struggle with, and I still struggle with. But it's like, she doesn't need me to always be doing stuff for the family. She just needs me to not be bullshitting her about why I'm doing what I'm doing.

It's interesting. And I don't know if you guys feel like this, but, you know, some of these books have done really well. Like, I came pretty close a couple years ago to sort of quitting ESPN and just being like, I don't. What? You know, what? You know, I mean, I don't need to do this anymore. This. I'm on the road a lot, and one of the real factors for me was it would be so weird if the thing. The job I had where I felt the most like myself, my kids never ever knew that version, knew that person. I thought that was really. I thought that was really weird. Yeah, it's like they're gonna, like. Like, at some point. Like, you know, I hope they find something they're obsessed with. I hope they find something that they love doing. You know, there's a great thing. Bill Russell said that, like, you know what? Like you're crack. Oh, my God, I wish he said it so much more eloquently than I'm capable of saying it, which is annoying considering how good at basketball he was. But, like, so, like, your craft is how you find the best in yourself. Craftsmanship is how you find what's best in yourself. And, like, I think if you find something that you treat as a craft, then you want to be great. I remember that Michael Lewis story about Shane. Like, I remember that so well in just being like, oh, shit. Like, there are hidden levels to this. I don't even really understand what it is I'm watching. And, like, that's part of the magic of it that, like, I'm in a narrative version where it's good guys and bad guys and it's magic and bird and It's Michael and LeBron and all of that. But, like, there is a version of this thing that's happening that is hyper technical and almost art. And, like, I just find that so interesting, those things that are hiding in plain sight about craft. And so, like, part of me thinks, like, I want my kids to see me obsessed with a craft. I want them to know that no.

One talks about craftsmanship. No, no one talks about crap. No one talks about calling.

Right?

And, you know, I know for all of us, you know, on. On the screen, it's. It's who we are, right?

And.

And as much as we don't want it to define us, it's defined us, right? But I think we're okay with that.

I'm just luckier than you guys because, like, I don't mind, doesn't require my bot. I just have to be able to get on and off of airplanes. You know what I mean? Like. Like, so, like, it's interesting to me that, like, you have these lives that are shrunk and, like, it feels like you must, like, here's my question, I guess, to both of you is like, it would seem to me that it would be very easy to get in a deeply unhealthy cycle of trying to maximize every moment because you can hear the clock ticking. And that could actually become counterproductive. And I'm just wondering how you manage to put everything into something without let. Without actually losing yourself in the minutia of it.

I mean, I feel like I've told this story so many times. Like, I never thought I'd play pro ball, and my dream was to play college football. I loved college football. And so when I got to college football, like, there was no clock ticking. Like, I was living my dream, like you wanted, about calling.

Like, I.

Again, like, I just love. I was getting my education. Like, I was a student athlete playing For a crazy coach, you know, like, but it, he made you bring it, like, it, it was awesome and I loved it. And as a result of that, I think being blind to all that, there was no ticking clock. I didn't feel pressure. I was playing with house money, you know, and all of a sudden I'm the number one pick. And it flipped me on me, it changed. That clock was there and I told you, like Joe and Steve and I was the number one pick and I got to be Peyton Manning too. Like, you know, and it just all of a sudden it distracted me. And I think to that, to your point, like when you hear all that, you got no chance. Yeah, right. Like, no. No chance. And it took me a long time to ever feel like, like to even understand it, that I was, how distracted I was. I was my own worst enemy.

Right.

For a long, long time. And how amazing it was to like finally get back on the other side. And I've talked a lot about like, obviously the guys that have helped me, the teammates and coaches that helped me get back to it. I think the thing that makes it so special was like, knowing that it's fleeting.

Right.

Like, like anything.

Right.

Like if it was, if I could have done it till 60, it wouldn't have been nearly as cool.

Well, it's that great thing. When Roman generals would go back into Rome, the conquering general, they would always have someone sitting on the chariot behind room, whispering in their ear, all glory is fleeting.

I, I tell that story all the time. You wrote that. I, I tell that all the time. I want to hear Shane's answer.

Well, right. You know, I think I have, I had a different perspective. I looked at as, at it, as it was a train leaving the station. And either I was going to be on that train or I wasn't.

Yeah.

And so it really wasn't about time. It was about, okay, the ship's pulling out. I better be on it. Once you're on it, right. It's Willie Nelson. The road goes on forever and the party never ends.

Right.

And so, and so the, the, the concentrate of time, it didn't. Doesn't really hit you till really the end. And you start to feel that, oh, I used to be able to do this. I can't do this anymore. What's, what's going on? Right. But when you're in it, when you're really in it, once you, once the train has left the station and you're on it, man, you're, you're, you're just trying like hell to stay on that train. Right. And it's not even in the back of our mind. We always know it's going to end someday. We know, we know. We hope it ends on our terms and not someone else's terms. That's the best we can hope for. But when you're, when you're in it. I did not think about my mortality, and that's probably why I really struggled when I retired. I never really gave thought to my mortality, who I was, what I was, until I wasn't that guy anymore. And that was the hardest lesson I.

Ever had to learn.

Just emotionally, spiritually, psychologically. But it came from, the train is leaving. I better be on that train. Hey.

Right. Did you ever read the David Foster Wallace? Do you like David Foster Wallace?

Yeah. The Federer?

Yeah. The Federal one, of course. But did you read the one he wrote about the tennis player, this woman, Tracy something?

Oh, Tracy Austin, yeah. Yeah.

Where basically the conclusion is sort of like her inability to be introspective during the playing career was maddening for him as a writer, for everyone else listening. But it might have been the thing that allowed her to be so excellent was just like this single mindedness. I don't know, I. I feel like I hear a little bit of that in what Shane's saying.

You know, it's interesting. Like, I, I remember the. We forget him now, but the, the Les Miles who was the football coach at LSU for a long time. I was down there for something. They kept playing those Alabama games every year that were huge. So I just felt like I was in Baton Rouge for weeks every year, like. And I was standing next to him when he got the phone call from the Baton Rouge Police Department that the Honey Badger had been arrested. It was one of the greatest things because I heard one side of the phone conversation. Hello? Yeah. What? No, What? He did? No, it was great. It was like. It was a Saturday Night Live skit. But anyway, one of the things he said was I was like complaining that he was like, it was hard to get to some of these players. And he was like. And I said something like. Like, they're not going to. I'm not after bulletin board material. And he's like, you don't get it. I'm not worried about what they're going to say to you, but I'm worried about what you're going to say to them. And I don't like you having access to their psyches and their doubts and their fears. It's so true. And it was just like, I don't restrict my players media access because I give a about bulletin board material. It's because I don't want reporters asking questions that validate their deepest insecurities and feel. Yeah, he's like, this is fragile, man. Yeah, like, you know, I was like, okay, I copy that. I get it.

This is like, this is a completely random thought. But I've, I've thought about this for a while. Listen, I didn't grow up religious. I'm like very, very agnostic. Like, the only time I went to church is when I spent the night at friend's house and I had to go to like mass the next day. Obviously. Like, then when I became pro, like, it was my, it was my everything. Like, especially before my family, like, you know, before I had a wife and a kids, like, it, it was, it was everything. And I think because it was so much that like, again, I, like I was holding on way too tight. Right? Like I, I analyzed and overanalyzed everything. And I've been around these guys. I played with so many teammates that have this like, ridiculous faith. In what? In any religion. But, but obviously in America, obviously predominantly Christianity. And their faith is so strong that like their sport doesn't mean as much to them. And yet then, and then in turn they go out and they play with a freedom. Right? Because like, and there's almost a power in it, if that makes any sense.

It feels to me from the outside that, that to be great you have to have the ability to both live self destructively 6 inches in front of your face and also not give a shit. And I just don't really understand how those two things talk to each other or how you learn it or if literally this is just you're either born with the thing or you're not. Like, I don't even really. It's just, I don't think we understand at all what, like where the sort of greatness that we're talking about comes from. At least I don't think so.

It comes from so many places. Right, right. I mean, you could hear my story, Alex's story, rugby's story, and they're, they're parallels, but they're all shaped very, very different. You know, growing up a mixed kid, you know, questioning my racial identity, you know, to Alex, you know, just getting one, one scholarship offer. Right. To Robbie being the, the, the, the guy who will never be as good as his brother. Right. And those lessons, we talk about this a lot on, on our, on our podcast. It's the lessons you learn before you turn 18. That they shape everything, Right? And we all internalize it in very, very different ways, and it manifests different ways, and it comes out in different ways. And, you know, one thing that, that is common between all of our guests that are, that are, Are successful is that there's, there's like an edge. Whether it's professional edge, a personal edge, a spiritual edge, an emotional edge, it's the edge that's, that unites everybody and, and that edge looks different, everybody, but there's definitely an edge that makes, Makes people just push a little harder and, and achieve a little bit more.

It's like that great Marv Levy quote. You know, he wanted his teams to do what other people were unable or unwilling to do, 100%. And it's like, you know, I mean, I, I. Anyway, that's, that's really interesting because, like, the edge, I mean, you know it when you see it. Yeah. You meet somebody and you're like, oh, like, they're like that person.

They're not gonna stop.

Manson lamps, I call them, like, crazy eyes. You know, somebody's got Manson lamps, you're like, oh, okay.

We all said we want a person with edge. We all want. Oh, we want that person that will burn. Burn the ships and go after it. But we're also scared of that person. Like, we don't want to associate with that person. Right.

Excellence. True excellence. It cuts across fields. It's not. There's not very many, but. Right. You know what relentless.com takes you to if you go to relentless.com.

No, type.

You type. Type in relentless.com.

If this hits me up on a watch list, I'm gonna be.

No, it's not going to take you to a watch list. It's not, not safe for work.

Oh, it goes to Amazon.

It goes to Amazon. The original name that Bezos wanted to have or that he bought and wanted to name Amazon was relentless.com, i think was a fucking. You know, it was a bookstore. And this dude started it thinking it should be called relentless.com because that was the only thing that he thought mattered. That's crazy.

That's totally insane. I mean, it's like, you know, Shane, Shane knows Pat Riley well.

Yeah.

I mean, Pat's insane. And, you know, one of the things I didn't realize is that you guys have seen the movie Hoosiers. Yeah. Where the Dennis Hopper, Dopper Hopper walks drunk onto the court. That happened to Pat Riley in real life. His father walked onto the court during a game. He was shooting free throws. He heard the noise he turned around and Walt pris below his high school basketball coach, who he worships, had to go get his dad off the court, drunk dad off the court and get him on the bench. And you just realize that like we're all really sophisticated but we're also pretty simple. And like, you know, there's an inner hurt 10 year old child and a lot of high achieving people that they don't ever really make peace with.

I love that in that piece about Pat, the whole concept and again like trying to find balance. But the Malibu house, dude, right? This idea of the Malibu house. And again for us as athletes, like this early retirement and like again you have access potentially to it, right? Like Pat had access to it, right? He could have been done how many times. But again, are you just going to go watch sunsets the rest of your life?

It was, it was one of the all time great things because all he had done for six months is talk to me about just want to go to Balibu and then miss the playoffs on the last day of the fucking season. My phone rings the next day, I'm like, hello. And he's like, you want to go get a drink? And I was like, yeah. So we went to the Smith and Wolinsky bar right by his house and we're sitting there and, and after like three martinis, he goes, you want to know the biggest lie ever told? And I'm like, what? And he goes, that I'm going to retire to Malibu. And I got my notebook out and I'm like, like I'm writing this down, I'm using this. I don't want to hear shit about like this is going in the story.

The thing that's crazy, right, is you think about these things on your point of like most interesting topic is yourself. Like these people know the stories you write. They know that they're going to go deep and they, they work with you on them. Because I almost wonder, do you think there's an element of. They want to see what they're like. Do you think that they want to read it later and learn about themselves or.

No, I don't know. I mean I want that to be true more than anything in the entire world. In my most vain spot. I want that. You don't think so?

Shane, you're making a face hard. That's really, really hard.

Why do they let him go?

This. I think I'm a. I think I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing. I think I just show up in a goofy hat and a notebook and I'm really friendly, and they don't really know what's happened till it's already happened. If I'm being honest.

I think that's right.

I think that's more the space.

Well, do you think they like it, though, at the end? Like, do you think mj, like, do you think Tiger. Forget Tiger. Because he wasn't.

He didn't. But Michael said to sd, who. You guys know where. Where did he learn all of that? And she was like, you told him. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, don't. And so. And then there's somebody else who I won't name. I'll take this to my grave, because they told me in a moment of anger and weakness, and they probably shouldn't have, but a story ran. And then either the next day or the day after that, they went to their regularly scheduled marriage counseling session where their wife reached into her big bag, pulled out the ESPN magazine, threw it down on the desk, and said, see?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, like, no, I don't. I don't know, man. I think, like, I think somebody's PR department sets it up, and they probably should have asked better questions.

I, I. I kind of agree with Rovi on this. Like, listen, I think there's probably. Are certainly. There are some people that get set up and maybe don't realize what's happening. But, like, I think some of these. Listen, I. I've known Urban. I know Urban really well, man. He. He knew what he was getting into. I'm sure Pat and Michael. Like, I think there's an aspect that. Listen, we only have one vantage point, right? Like, I. I only see things through my. My lens, and I. I'm interested. I. I'm. I'm curious on this, right? Like, I've had people tell me, oh, you should write a book. You should write a book. Like, I don't know. Like, I. I don't even know how clearly I see things in retrospect. And, like, I. I think it would take somebody. I think it's more interesting from an outside perspective.

Well, you know, it is interesting that, like, one of the things with Urban is that, you know how it works. Like, he doesn't remember your name. Like, you know, he was calling me the wrong name two days in. And. And then I went talk to Tom Herman about that, and then I went to. We were driving to Cleveland to a baseball game, and there's that book that Urban gives to everybody. I can't think of the name of it, but it's the book. And I Went through that book in my hotel room the night before with a highlighter and a pen, and I highlighted every passage in that book that I thought described Urban Meyer's interior life. And then we got in his car, driving from Columbus to Cleveland, and. And I just started reading them out loud to him. And finally he was like, read that again. And then we were in. And then it was then I. Like, I could have moved into his house, but he was totally disinterested right up until the moment when he was very interested.

Well. Right. I think that most people who have achieved a lot have a hard time telling their own story. They don't know what their story is. Right. And so that's where you come in.

Right.

And so I don't think people necessarily want your story, but they don't know how to tell their story. And so that's that. That's how you're able to get access. And once. Once you gain the trust and you obviously have the credibility, you know, that's everyone. Everyone wants a. You know, a legacy, you know, especially people who. Who achieve. But most people can't write their own story.

Yeah, but I think also people. Dude. Jane, the only thing. And this is the part I have a small disagreement with you on. I don't know if they have it at the beginning, but I think everybody wants to be seen. And basically, dude, what they believe at some point is that you see them, and then they're like, okay, let's go.

You know, I think everybody. There's always such an. Everybody has a story. They tell themselves about themselves.

Yes.

And. And there. Then there's the story that is told about them. And I think the most interesting thing in the world is living in the space between those two and see how they talk to each other. But, like. But, you know, the idea that, like, you. I have. I have a very definite story I tell myself about myself that would be pretty easy for a cynical journalist to tear apart. Like, it would fall apart pretty quickly under aggressive questioning.

Yeah.

Like, what's that mean? What are the ramifications of that?

Yeah.

And who. Which journalist would. Fuck it. I don't want a cynical one. But which journalist would you let write the Wright Thompson story on you?

Nobody. I've done this to too many people to let somebody do it to me. No, but, like, I think we all believe that if people would just see me, like, I see me, that everything would be great, that my intentions are good. You know, Like, I think one of the. There's a trope of modern stories that I hate when it's. People make really subtle suppositions about, well, the word clearly. When I read the word clearly, I want to throw up. Because, like, someone saying, well, clearly they thought, or clearly the mo. No, you don't. Fuck you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, no. And so, like, that drives me crazy when people take actions and then try to intuit motivations. Like, I don't. That. That makes me crazy. That's like my third rail as a reader because I'm like, you don't know that, and you're probably wrong. But, like, I think the story you tell yourself about yourself is a kind of armor, you know, like you use to just go through the world. I mean, like, the jobs, you know, that's so good. You know, that's so true. You know, like. Like the. The. Nobody has ever considered my work in the way that. That Shane and Alex's work was discussed. Their craft was discussed often by people who were more interested in, you know, who hated who in the locker room than in why I need to get Kobe Bryant to these six square meters on the court because his shooting percentage goes from X to Y. And so, like, I just feel like that those things are armors and you just. If somebody could just see you like you see you. I don't know. I think people are always desperate for that. One of the reasons I think people trust people too much in situations like this is that they're desperate to be seen. And you just think that, all right, there's somebody. There's an athlete right now that I wanted to write about that. I don't think I can name them because it'd be embarrassing to them. But I went to meet them and it was very clear to me that the way to get them to trust you was to traffic in their own feeling of. Of always being shit on or always being disrespected. And it was very clear to me that all I have to do to get to move into this person's life is do that. And I just wasn't willing to do it. Like, I just knew what to do and was like, I'm not doing that to this person. Like, they have no idea that I can just say X, Y, and Z, and then we're off to the races and. And it just sort of felt like I need to leave this person's house. Like, they're, you know, like, they're not. This is not. They. They don't know what they're getting into. They don't really want it. I don't know, Like, I just think you gotta be like a human being first.

We always ask everyone. Our podcast is called Glue Guys, right? Who are the glue people in your life and why?

My best friend in the world is a magazine writer named Seth Wickersham, who I talk to every day. Who's incredible. I talked to him an hour ago. I'm not sure I could have done this job without someone who I knew had my best interest at heart, who was also doing it. So it was always going to give. Like, I mean, we're both very competitive, but also, like, my father taught me very early that somebody else's success is not your failure and that, like, it's not zero sum. And so, like, I think we're both very happy for each other when we do well and it's helpful. My uncle, Reeves Neblit, who's my mom's brother, he and I are very close and he really stepped in after my father died. And like, he's really important to me and he's somebody I run business. He's a very successful person and I run everything past him. Just like, like heat check, you know, like, just let me, like, because I don't know anything. Like, I'm a 48 year old toddler, you know, like, I don't like a. I don't know. And like, you know, I don't know anything about money. You know what I mean? Like, I just, like, I don't know. Those are the probably glue guys for me. You know, I've got a. You know, it just matters. And I also think, like, people who've walked your walk. Yeah, Like, I think they're. I'm sure this is true for you guys. There are people who know things about you that, you know. I thought it was very interesting ending back where we started. I thought it was very interesting that there are things that Bob Cousy and Satch Sanders know about Jason Tatum that Jason Tatum doesn't even know. He doesn't know. Yeah, like, I think that's really interesting energy because in a certain sort of narrative arc, those aren't different characters. Those are all the same person, different points on a continuum. And like, just because Bob Cousy played in black and white and made $10 an hour as opposed to $700 million an hour, the fundamentals of it, the wanting, the dreaming, the working, the risking, the claiming that shit is exactly the same. And like, I just feel like, you know, this isn't. That story isn't a story with 20 different characters. It's a story with one character.

Yeah.

And they're just at different spots on the circle, but.

Right. We are eternally grateful that you came on with us. We love your writing. And just speaking for myself, I mentioned this to you but you. You have made me a better son because I do things with my dad while he's alive that I wouldn't have otherwise done had you not written the way you've written. And you've made me more curious and a better friend and because of the way you write. And you've also made me more interested in the world. So we are deeply grateful. And you're an all time glue guy.

Oh, you got time. This was really fun. Thanks guys so much. I'm gonna now go replay every dumb thing I said six hours in my head as I go into some deep spiral. Just if you want to know what my crazy is.

Thank you.

Thank you, Sam.