141: The Spicy Book Chat: Two Therapists Dissect Romantasy with Vanessa Marin

Hey there and welcome back to Holding Space Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Cassidy and I am really glad you are joining myself and Vanessa Marin today for our Spicy Book Club. This is your official invitation. We're so glad you're tuning in. I have been looking forward to recording this conversation for a long time. Vanessa Marin is a New York Times best selling author of the book Sex Talks. She is a sex therapist and my friend and she and I have bonded over the last year or so over our shared love of Romantasy fantasy novels with some spice and some romance. And in today's episode we are sharing that love of romantasy with all of you. You are officially cordially invited to our Spicy Book Club. Okay, we don't really actually have a book club. Maybe someday, but this conversation represents what our book club conversations might look like. We are going to discuss some of our favorite series such as Acotar, A Court of Thorns and Roses by SJM Sarah J. Maas. We are also going to be giving you some recommendations for series that have been recommended to us but we haven't read yet.

If you want to head to the.

Show Notes, I actually created a document for you that shares all of the books that we mentioned in this episode and all of the books that are on our to be read list. But actually before we get there and don't worry, we will give spoiler alerts.

When that is called for.

Before we get there we are going to be talking about these books themselves. What is the pull of these books and how are they ending up on target? End caps. Now, as a busy person parent woman, how is reading actually a form of reclamation of a sense of self? What is the impact of these books on the reader? What are some of the benefits? What are some of the tricky parts? Are these books basically porn? We will be talking about it all, answering these questions and having fun along the way too. So, so glad you're tuning in. I really think you're going to enjoy this episode and just so thrilled to be sharing this part of me and this thing that I love. Reading Romantasy with all of you. You're listening to Holding Space Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Cassidy Freitas. I'm a mom to three and licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm really glad that you took the time to hold space for you by tuning in to today's episode. My hope with this podcast is to share conversations with experts from around the world and parents who've been through it so that maybe you feel a little less alone in your experiences and the messy side of being a parent and being a human and so that you can walk away with supportive steps for what to do next. Listening to this episode is not a substitute for seeking support from a professional in your area. I believe that holding space and offering presence to both ourselves and others is truly one of the most meaningful ways that we can express care. And you are so deserving of that care. All right, are you ready? Let's dive in.

Vanessa, my friend, I am so excited for this conversation. This is. I feel like this is, like, a long time coming. Like, we. We've been talking about doing something like this for a while, but rather than recording and, you know, really breaking it down, we've just been enjoying. Enjoying each other's company in the world of our shared love of Romantasy, fantasy fiction, romance novels. And so I thought there was no better person to have this conversation with and really start to delve a little bit deeper into these books and why we love them and why they're great, but also what can be potentially tricky about these books that so many are loving and reading these days. So thanks for coming back. I'm really excited.

Thanks for having me here. This is one of the interviews that I've been most excited about. I cannot wait to dive into this.

Okay, so, like, first, let's contextualize the two of us and how, like, I was trying to remember, how did it start? How did our love for each other through our shared love of these books develop? Was it like, DMs, like, when did it move to text?

Yeah, I think our friendship, the story of our friendship is really the story of Romantasy. I'm pretty sure what happened is that you were. You were posting about Acotar on Instagram a whole bunch, and finally I was like, okay, what is the series? I think I DM'd you because we, you know, we'd been in contact before. We were friendly, but weren't, you know, we weren't super close at that point. And I think I just DM'd you and was like, okay, what are these books? Tell me about them. And you were so excited. You're like, you have to read them, and you have to tell me every step of the way everything you think about these books. And so that really started it. We just started exchanging voice notes. At first, I didn't take you seriously. I was like, oh, she doesn't actually want to hear from me about what I think of these books. And I think you had to ping me a Couple of times, like, no, I actually want to hear what you're thinking as you're going through. And I remember you said to me one time as well, like, I'm so jealous of you getting to have this experience of discovering this world for the first time. So that's what cemented it for me. I thought, okay, I actually will. And so, yeah, I ended up going through all of that series and then all of sjm, and you just became my guide, telling me, like, what to read next. And we just kept going. And, yeah, it really cemented our friendship. We connected so much over these books.

We really did. I mean, like, there's been periods of time, especially when. When there's, like, a book that we're reading together or, like, I recommended something and I want to know, like, what you're thinking about it, where we are sending voice notes every day. And I always love your husband Xander's, like, background commentary, like, what are you guys talking about? You're just like, leave us alone. We're having fun here.

Oh, yeah. He's always in the background with some sort of, like, funny comment of, like, oh, we're talking about, like, the Bat Boys again or something. Yes.

All right.

Yeah, just leave me alone. Leave me alone.

That is. That was our love story. And I really think there really is something to not just reading these books, but also the experience of sharing the experience with others. And I think that there really is something to. I mean, romantasyou know, fantasy fiction has been around for a very long time, and spicy novels, right? Or smut, as some call it, has been around for a very long time. But now it's like, these books are like, target end caps. Like, they're so much more mainstream. And now with, like, TikTok and Book Talk, and people are starting to recognize that, like, oh, maybe this is something that can be part of a larger conversation, or I can share that I enjoy these books with someone else. And then we get to experience the love and joy of having this, like, shared friendship around these books and just something. I mean, I know for me, it's, like, something else to talk about besides my kids, besides just, like, just, you know, all the daily stuff that comes with being a human. And, you know, I was thinking about it, and as a therapist, I really love getting into someone's head and, like, you know, understanding, like, their inner experience and really wanting to understand how they view the world and get in. Get into their world with them. And I find that, like, fiction is kind of the same. Like, you get to really get into somebody's inner experience and enter their world. And there's something about that, too, that I think connects for me. And I also. I am someone, when we get to, like, the fantasy piece of it. I am someone who grew up reading Harry Potter, and I read Twilight, and I got swept away into these novels and just loved spending time in my imagination through these stories. And then I got. Then I got my. Was getting my PhD, and then during that time, I also was having my children, and I didn't want to read anything. I didn't want to read anything. I didn't have time or space to read anything either. And then it wasn't until the pandemic, and I was postpartum with our youngest, my third, where I started to pick up reading again. And A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas was the first book I picked up in a very long time. And it just. It really woke me up. Like, it really woke me up in certain ways that I had really missed a connection to myself that I had really missed. And it also, like, increased my libido at a time when libido is really, like, not. Was really low for me. And that was fascinating to me. And so I ended up sharing the book with a good friend who. I remember we were at dinner, and I was like, so I'm reading this book. And I was like, it's like fairy porn is what I called it. And I. It's. And I kind of, like, minimized it in that way because, you know, these books are. Are so much more than that. But it was kind of like a way to just be like, oh, just in case. Like, just case you don't like it, I'm just gonna, like, minimize it. But, like. But read it. Tell me what you think. And then she had a very similar experience where, I mean, and she just. She really took off and, like, she's gone. This is Meryl. Meryl, if you're listening, I'm talking about you. You know. You know. You know I love you. She took off, and she became my guide, right, for these books and shares all the books that she reads with me and leads the way for me. And then it was really fun to become that for someone else. Right? And. And I was especially excited to hear your thoughts about it as a sex therapist, because while I enjoyed these books and I noticed that there was an increase in my libido, and it was helping me kind of discover things that I might be interested in trying and just. I found to be actually really supportive when it came to my sex life. I also know that there's some things and themes in these books that might be problematic. And I wanted to. To understand your perspective too. So first share a little bit, if you can, with us a little bit about your journey into fantasy and your relationship to Romantasy and. And then we can kind of go from there.

I have always been a huge bookworm. I spent an embarrassingly huge proportion of my childhood at the Santa Barbara Public Library just devouring books. And I would really read anything. And for me, reading is just that immersive experience that you were talk about like getting lost in another world, really getting lost in other characters. I maybe I had that interest in psychotherapy from a very young age without really realizing it, but I loved getting inside someone else's head and seeing their perspective and their story and journey. So fantasy wasn't a huge part of like my reading experience. I did read Harry Potter and really liked that whole series. I also, as an adult, reading all the Game of Thrones books before it got turned into a TV series. And for me that was the first experience of having such an intricate world building experience. And I really liked that aspect of it. Just like, there's so many details. Sometimes too many details. You're like, oh my God, how many times we have to talk about like the pigeon pies and the huge feast they have and all this stuff. But that was like the first big world building for me. And then I really had never read anything remotely like, you know, fan, like Romantasy before you turned me on to sjm. So that was a brand new thing for me. And I also had that very surprising experience of, wow, I'm so immersed in this world. I love this world. And also I am very turned on. And I have not experienced being so turned on by books before. So that was a new one for me too.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I'd love to hear that you had that kind of similar experience. And I hope that the listener also can feel this. This like, sort of like normalization of like this is. That's. That's a thing. And like this is okay, right? Like, and I think that there's. Yeah, there's. There's really something about right now where these books are, as I mentioned, like target end caps. And, and like we have Kindles where we can like read some books that maybe from just like the COVID we may have previously felt like, embarrassed to like share that we're reading, but there's just like, I think because it's become more mainstream because we have these other, like, kind of like platforms from which we can read because we now have social media where there's like this whole. You get so much more connection to the fandom. The fandoms have always been there, but now there's like this, this leveled up connection to these fandoms. And I think there's really something fun and cool about being a part of this. To consume something that so many others are consuming at the same time and then to kind of explore what is my relationship to this thing that everybody is talking about.

You know, this has been the first series for me that I've felt so connected to other people. Like, even with Harry Potter, obviously everybody was reading Harry Potter at the same time, but I never dissected it with friends in the same sort of way. For me, reading has always been a very solo experience. Actually. I have a lot of embarrassing stories from my childhood where my. I would have play dates and my. My parents would tell me, like, an hour into it, my friend would just come walking down the hall and say, like, well, Vanessa said she's done playing. She's just reading her book. I would choose books over in person, friendships and hangouts. So it's always been this very, like, solo experience for me. But going through it with you and just, you know, all these voice notes and dissecting things. And now I have also had the flip experience. I have guided a few friends through the series and been able to, like, be in that role of watching them discover it. Like, I've never connected with other people the way that I have with these types of books. And that's been so special for me.

It really is. It's also vulnerable. Like, I think that there were a couple moments where I experienced that and we ended up talking about. About it. Which is why I love our friendship so much, because we can, like, dissect. Even the friendship where I was like, I. I'm. It. It is actually a really vulnerable experience for me to recommend a book. And then. And then I sit back and I worry, like, what if they think this is dumb? Or what if they don't like it? And. And then I had to realize, wait, that's actually. It's actually okay. You get to like. And you're a writer, you have a New York Times bestselling book, Sex talks. Like you. You know, the experience of writing something and putting it out. And now it's not yours anymore. It's the readers to make of it what they're going to. And I think there's actually something similar about Being a recommender of a book, like, you get to have your. Your and your personal experience and in relationship to this book and these characters, and then you share it with someone, and then they get to have their own too. And it might not be the same as yours. They might not like it. They might not have connected to it. And I think recently you read a book that I had read, and I was like, oh, you know, I didn't really like it. And. And then you read it and you were like, I'm actually really liking it. It's like, wait, that's great. I love that. And I've had the experience of recommending something to you that I was like, I really liked this. And then you were like, the writing kind of sucks. And I was like, oh. And then. And then what did I do? I think the next book I recommended, I'm like, hey, the writing isn't really great, but I really love the characters. And then you were reading it and you', like, wait, I'm not noticing that there's, like, that the writing's really, really bad. Like, like, you kind of had a, like, imposter moment around that. Right. So it was just. It's a vulnerable experience. And now you've gotten a chance to experience that too, right?

Oh, yeah. It is very vulnerable to. To share that with somebody. So I. The most vulnerable for me was convincing a friend to read the Throne of Glass series. And I told her exactly what you told me. You said, I need you to read this series. You're not gonna like it until four books in, but just trust me. And I thought you were absolutely nuts when you told me that. I was like, I'm gonna read four books and not be into this, but I'm gonna think it's worth it. And then I did, and it totally was worth it. And so, yeah, turning around and saying that exact same thing, like, if we are friends, you're gonna trust me and do this. Unfortunately, it worked out, and she loved it as well. But, yeah, it's very. I think the vulnerability just shows the emotional attachments that we have to these books. Like, we're so immersed in them that it's, you know, it's different from, oh, I have this, like, you know, psychology book that I think would be really great for you to read. It's like, we're emotionally connected to these worlds, and so it feels very vulnerable to say, like, you. You see the magic here, like, I do. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. And then if they don't to. To be like, that's actually okay. And I get to still hold sacred this relationship that I have to these characters into this world and to these books, you know? But, yeah, it's. It's vulnerable. And I. There's been. There's been moments where I'm like, wait, should I be embarrassed that I'm talking about this stuff so much on Instagram? And I was like, you know what? Like, there'. There's. And there's people out there and people that have actually come to me in real life, right? Where they're like, oh, my gosh. You know, like. Like, I. Thank you for sharing all of this content about postpartum, but can I also say thank you for introducing me to Acotar or Throne of Glass or. Right. Like, these. These books that I'm. That I'm reading and it. And then that's what they want to talk about. And then I, like, light up. I mean, I light up talking about postpartum, but I also light up talking about, you know, parenting. Not just parenting, postpartum, but also fantasy.

Because it's.

It really is a part of my identity that I love to connect with people around. And so let's. Let's talk a little bit about the smut world. And, like, first, like, do you. Like, do you even know where this word smut came from? And, like, how would you define. And if you don't, that's okay, but, like, I don't know where to come from, actually.

I should have looked this up.

What is. Like, where does someone decide the word smut? Yeah, I don't know, because the words smut feels like.

I don't know.

To me, something about it feels, like, bad or, like, dirty. And, like, there's not. And that doesn't mean that it ha. That dirty has to be bad. Like, dirty could be fun, but there's just something about it that I don't. I don't, like, love the word, but that's a word that people use. And so help us understand, when someone says, it's a smutty book, what does that mean?

I think it just means that there's some sort of sexual element to it where there's some graphicness involved. So it's not just like, the two characters tumble into bed and then, you know, end of the scene and the next scene is they're waking up the next morning. It's like, no, we are talking about what's happening. What's the order that it's happening. There are several pages devoted to the action. There's probably a couple of different scenes. Of action throughout the book. So I don't know if there's any, like, specific, super specific definition, but that's what I think of when I think about smut.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And there are some benefits to reading smut and reading smutty books. And we'll get to the things that can be tricky or problematic. We're going to get there. And like, I know that one of the big questions that folks have so that they know that it's coming, we're going to explore it. Is, isn't smut porn? Or is it porn? And is if porn. If we. If we're gonna. Is porn problematic? So therefore, is smut problematic? And so we'll. We'll get there. But first, let's talk about some of the benefits of reading these spicy, romantic. We're gonna really talk primarily about fantasy, so fantasy books. What would you say some of those benefits are?

The biggest one is definitely increased libido. I mean, I think it's really hard to read these books and not feel turned on, at least in the moment. But most people that I've talked to who have gotten into this world are like, it's increased my libido overall, not just when I'm actually reading the book. So that can be a super fun one. And I've definitely heard a lot of women echo your same story of finding these books in times when they felt really disconnected from their libido, Even disconnected from their sense of themselves as a sexual being. And so this feeling of. It's this feeling of rediscovering yourself, like, oh, she's still in there. You know, she's still there. She still has that. That fire and that passion and that ability to, like, get excited and turned on. So that's probably the biggest one. But some other benefits include, for some people, it's discovering new possibilities about their sex lives. So it could be something as simple as, like, oh, I want my partner to maybe be a little bit more growly in bed. Up to maybe there is a specific act. Like, I actually am kind of curious about a threesome, or I do want my partner to use a toy on me or something like that. But there can, you know, it can just be. Serve as an inspiration of things to try.

And even for things like oral sex, I mean, a lot of these book books do center female pleasure.

Oh, yeah.

Which I imagine was going to be. I just stole one of your benefits that you were gonna say. But it's centering woman's pleasure. And a lot of my Clients are women. A lot of my friends are women. And I have heard from both. Both clients and friends how oral sex was just something that they felt uncomfortable with, and so they just didn't really ask for it or give it a chance or said, oh, I don't really. I don't really need that. Right. And then they read about it in a book, and they were like, wait, hold on. Like that actually reading about it turned me on. And now maybe I'm a little bit more interested in exploring that with my partner.

Yeah, absolutely. And I do think that's something I think SJM does really well. In particular, like, she really does center female pleasure in a way that gives us permission to ask for more pleasure. Because that's definitely one of the biggest themes that I see in my work as a sex therapist is as women, we have been so socialized to neglect our own pleasure. You know, we have all sorts of body image issues. We've been taught that our genitals are gross and weird and icky and nobody wants to get too close to them. We're supposed to pay more attention to the man's pleasure than to our own. We're not supposed to speak up and ask for what we want or give feedback. Like, there's just so much crap that gets put on our shoulders. It makes it really difficult for us to honor our own pleasure and seek our own pleasure. So I think being able to see representations of that is so important. Yeah.

To hear the male character say how much they love the way that she tastes.

Right.

Like, what did. What did Castile say? That Poppy tasted like honeydew or something. Yeah.

I was like, okay, not the honeydew.

But, you know, like. But that was. That was his way of describing that he loves honeydew, and he loves the way that she tastes. And that's hot. And that, like, to. To. And. And. And. And. And is actually very true for the male experience. And I know that you've done a ton of polls and a. A ton of. Had so many conversations with. With both partners, you know, they love the way that their partner tastes, you know, and. And. And. And regardless of sexuality. And partner. Right. Like Mal, like, love the way that a person who has female genitalia, like, tastes. And that was something that I know came up for one of my clients in particular, and that client shared with.

Me that she had never had an orgasm before. And then she started reading these books.

And that changed for her. Prioritize that. And that's huge, right? That's huge. Yeah.

Yeah, Absolutely huge. I Love hearing that.

I actually found a research study very, you know, have to, have to. As a, someone who's a researcher, I need to name like, it was a very small sample size, but they, they were looking at a group of women and they had half of them read like a self help book and half of them read like erotic novel they called it. And they found that there was increase in libido for both like that and that and that that it sustained. Right. And that there were elements of all the pieces that you talked about in both of these books and that that was what they, what they are hypothesizing was the reason why both experience that increase in libido and a positive shift in their relationship to sex. So.

Yeah. Well, there's also something about, like, even just reading a book that requires carving some time out of your day. And I think that's another thing that we women struggle with is we are, we put ourselves last. We're so quick and we've been socialized. It's not our fault, but we're, you know, we're so quick to put everybody else's needs above our own. And so taking that time to read and saying, like, you know, this is important. I'm taking a little bit of time for myself. And that was one of the most interesting things about the series too, is I found myself. I cannot believe how much I read in a single day. Like, I found time where time did not exist.

I do think, once again, you're like, what did you do to me? Like, I like, what have you done to me? All I want to do. These books are haunting me. All I want to do is read.

So even that, it's just an act of reclamation. Like, I'm reclaiming my own time and giving myself the space to do something enjoyable. Not just to be so focused on, like, plowing through my to do list, doing all the chores, taking care of everybody. Like, I'm gonna do something for my own pleasure.

I love that. Okay. I love that.

Hey there. If you are a California, Nevada or New York based parent, we are accepting new clients. If you reach out to the link in the show notes, drcasidymft.com, you can learn more about my group private practice that supports millennial parents. If you're struggling with triggers as a parent, anxiety, relationships, boundaries. If you're trying to process a traumatic birth experience or you're navigating fertility or a pregnancy loss, we are here for you. If you are ready to take the next step in getting support with therapy, head to the link in the show notes. Drcassidymft.com Then click on the contact page and fill out that form that is you sending an email directly to me. I will follow up with you and I will make sure that you will get connected with the right therapists in our group. And that's me included. We work with both individuals and couples. So if you are ready to take that next step. Next step heads that link in the show notes. I am so excited to connect with you.

So there's some challenges that come here, right? I will say from my own personal experience. At first, Dave, my husband, was like, what's going on? Like, he was like, I haven't said you're reading all of a sudden. And he was like, that's great. But then when I kind of of showed him what I was reading, he would start to tease me a little. He was like, so are you just gonna go spend some time with your book boyfriends now? And it took us having some conversations about this because really, at first, like, I have to put it in context, right. I had recently had a baby libido, and our sex life was really strained. And now I'm reading these books and enjoying reading these books about other people in these fantasy worlds having sex. And. Right. And he would tease me about it, and that didn't feel good to be teased about it. And I also. What we. What I would then come to discover through our conversations is it. He didn't feel really good about it at first either, you know, and once we had conversations, then we both would. We got to both experiencing the benefits of these books that I'm enjoying. But it was tricky at first. So I would love to hear your thoughts on some of the challenges or problematic components of. Of reading Smith.

So a big one, I think, is unrealistic expectations. So, of course, like, books are meant to be entertaining. You know, they're. They're meant to be exciting and suck us in. And while, like, I do think that SJM does a really great job of overall, the sex scenes are, like, more realistic than what we see in most TV and movies and other books. But there are still elements of it that aren't. And, you know, primarily, one of the big things that comes up is in. In smutty books, women always orgasm from penetration, which is just not the reality in real life. In real Life, only about 15 to 20% of women orgasm penetration alone. And even of that percentage, it's not always reliable. So I think just reading over and over again, you know, these orgasms from the penetration, like, we kind of can't help but internalize a little bit. Like, oh, that's how it's supposed to be. And then, you know, we might find ourselves, like, actually having intercourse with our partner and wondering, like, ooh, is there something wrong with me? Like, this actually isn't the most pleasurable activity. I'm definitely not anywhere close to orgasm. We actually have polled our audience, and we found that 91% of women said that intercourse is not their favorite sexual activity.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's. You know, it's. That's one of the big, tricky things. So I think we really need to keep in mind, like, that's just not the reality of how our bodies actually work.

So you're telling me that we can't. That most couples don't have synchronous orgasms?

Yeah, the simultaneous orgasms, that's another one. And also, the. The men are always able to go for around two, like, 10 to 15 seconds later, which is not very realistic. So it's not just unrealistic from. For female bodies, it's also for male bodies as well.

Yeah. Yeah.

And actually, I've gotten a lot more questions about that lately. People have been asking, like, oh, my husband, like, can't go again right away. Or, like, my partner says he needs, like, you know, needs to wait till the next day. Or he's getting older and he needs a couple of days. And I'm like, yeah, if that's. That's very normal. It's not. It's not what we read in the books that, like, you know, oh, she just needs to keep looking at him. And the stirring starts again.

The stirring of his velvet shaft, or whatever they call it. Yeah.

Throbbing. The throbbing again. So, yeah, that's one. And I think what you were speaking to a little bit as well is. Is another potential downfall of it is, like, we get so immersed in these books that sometimes our partner can feel neglected. Or we're just. We're even. Not even neglected, but they're just noticing the difference. I mean, imagine what it would be like for you if all of a sudden, you know, Dave comes home and he's like, I'm super into golfing, and I'm gonna be golfing every day, you know, for hours a day. Like, of course you'd be like, excuse me, excuse me. Like, what's going on here? So I think it's natural, like, with such a quick change and how immersed we can get, it definitely is natural for your partner to just be like, what is. What's going on here. Like, wait a minute. This is a very sudden change, and it's taking up so much of your time. And Xander and I even had, like, we had some tension around it as well, because it was this funny push pull of. You know, sometimes I was reading the books and getting very turned on and, like, get over here right now. And so he was really enjoying it. And other times, like, you know, he would be wanting to spend quality time with me, and I'm like, oh, I gotta read my book. I want to read my book. You know? And so. And we also had the same experience of he would tease me a little bit too. And I. That felt too vulnerable to me. I was like, no, I'm connecting with these books in a way that I didn't expect to. And I'm kind of embarrassed about that. And I'm kind of embarrassed of the content of the books because I've never read anything like that, this before. So we also had to have that conversation of, like, please don't tease me about this. But I also had to be realistic about, like, okay, I know I'm getting really sucked into this series, but I can't, like, lose my connection to my regular life. And I've had other friends talk about this as well, who are like, yeah, I. You know, I've had friends who went on vacations, and I just wanted to read the whole time. Or, you know, my partner wants to hang out with me, and I keep telling him, no, I'm not going to because I'm reading. So there is the danger of us just getting a little too sucked in.

Yeah. And I mean, I think there. And there can be, like, we can have these. These big emotional reactions to a series ending. Or like, I, I, oh, yeah, I get emotionally attached. And then when a series ends, there's, like, there can be a little bit of a sense of grief and feeling down for a bit. And, you know, my kids might notice that. Like, he might notice that. And, And I don't think there's. That, that's wrong. I think that it's. It's just. It's helpful for me to kind of be able to have a name for it so that I'm just like, wait, what's. What's going on with me? Why do I feel, like, this, like, sadness and this grief to be like, okay, that's a normal human feeling. And I have spent so much time with these characters that I am emotionally connected to them and attached. And when the series ends and I don't get to spend I don't get to have that to look forward to, to spend more time with them. Like, that's. Yeah, that affects somebody and. And I think that's actually why I really enjoy like the book talk world where. And like the fan art and just reading different theories and like even fan fiction spending. I spend time there too. But it is helpful to share in my real life, in my real relationships, like, what's going on and. And to express directly that if I do feel like I'm being like they're teasing me or they don't understand, like, you know, just to explain and to also express like my needs around it. Right. Like, I need you to not tease me about this because it actually is a real feeling I'm having like an emotional feeling.

Yeah, yeah. And then I think one other thing that we need to watch out for too is comparing our relationships to the relationships we're reading about in the books. Because, you know, in these books this is. Is fantasy, right? There's these epic battles between good and evil and people are on the brink of dying all the time. And there's this intensity of the relationships that we don't experience in our day to day life. I'm not going into battle. I haven't been anywhere close to death. Like, Xander hasn't had to save me from the brink. An evil witch or something like that. Like. And so there, yeah, there is this intensity with which. And again, these books are meant to be entertaining too. So of course they're amped up. Like, you know, they're soulmates and their heart mates and all these things you just see. You read about characters falling in love with each other and having this intensity of feeling for each other that, you know, I had plenty of experiences, plenty of moments, like reading through these books and I look over at Xander and he's like, like picking his nose or burping, you know, and I'm like, damn it.

Where are your wings?

Where are your wings? You're supposed to be obsessed with me and you're ignoring me.

You're like, you don't shape shift into a dragon. So boring. No, I know. I hear you. I hear you.

You haven't sacrificed everything to be with me. So, yeah, it's natural that we compare our relationships. And I had to catch myself a few times of like, girl, like, this is not what your marriage is gonna look like. And that is okay. I don't actually want to be fighting evil and having all of humanity resting on my shoulders and like, my relationship's not gonna feel that way. Either.

Oh, my gosh, it is intense, these books, right? It's like the keys. The keys to whatever. Like. Like, you. In order to. To get those keys, you need to have there's, like, this huge, cathartic, huge, like, trauma plot that has to be worked through. And I think that there's. You know, I think that there's actually something cathartic I've experienced, too, in reading these books where in our real world, there's a lot that's messed up and there's so much pain and there's so much that needs to change. And in these books, you get to actually watch this huge change happen. And we don't get to always experience that in our lifetime and in the real world. And so I think that there's, like, things about that that can be really cathartic and really pleasurable and enjoyable to read. But then. Yeah, how. How do you. How do we get our feet back on the ground? You know? And how do we. How do we know when. Oof. I need to put the book down actually, to be present in my real world here. And like. Like this. I need to have some boundaries around this, right? Like, just with anything, like, how. How do we start to notice that in ourselves, in our lives or in our bodies?

Oh, it's such a good question. And I'll be totally honest with you, I don't think I did a very good job at it. Like, I just got sucked at that. And I went. Yeah, I went at first, but there, you know, and I believe it was actually Xander a lot of the times who kind of, you know, pulled me out of it a little bit, where, you know, we had some conversations about it, or him just saying, like, hey, I know you're really sucked into the book right now, but can we have a date night tonight or something? So it was often him that had to remind me of that. But I think, yeah, just trying to be. For me, I didn't know about the potential negative impacts as I was going through it, but I think now that these books are becoming so much more popular, so many more people are reading them, that maybe we can start having these conversations with people where they can be more prepared for this now. Like, oh, okay, I've heard this book is very addicting, and I'm really going to get sucked into it. So let me make sure that I'm being thoughtful about taking care of myself and, you know, not not letting go of too many responsibilities and all of that. But I also. I feel a little torn, too, because at the same Time. I think most. I think your average woman could really stand to give herself a lot more free time, you know? So it's like, I don't want to. I don't want to set these rules for anyone where it's like, you only get 10 minutes a day or, you know, you're doing the dishes is more important than this, because it's not like, go.

And I know. I know you want to read while you're doing the dishes. I've seen you do that. The proof you're reading while you're doing it.

I absolutely have got my little phone or my Kindle, like, propped up on the back. So, yeah, it's like, it's okay to let yourself get a little lost, but maybe just be thoughtful. Be thoughtful that, like, it can happen. And you've got to keep an eye out for unrealistic expectations. Make sure you're still, like, creating time, you know, to take care of yourself in other ways and your partner, too. But, like, maybe just give yourself permission to get a little lost.

Yeah. And maybe, maybe, maybe if the world is, like, saying, like, wait, what are you doing? Maybe it's because the world's not used to you. The world around you is not used to you allowing that and getting immersed in something else. And so that's. That's okay to pay attention to. And I think I noticed that, like, for me, if I. If I've been reading for 45 minutes and, you know, my husband's been doing something, too, and then he comes to bed, and it's like, you know, it's like I have a little bit of energy left, and maybe. Maybe that energy can be for him, you know, like. And I can put it down, but I still. I still put boundaries around it for myself so that I can get to do it. Like getting the kids to bed at a certain hour or, you know, if I haven't had a chance to spend time with myself, which I know that I need in order to get to a place of being interested in sex, like, communicating to my husband, hey, can you get the kids down tonight? Like, I'm gonna go read, you know? And, like, we. We both get to ask that of each other on different nights. Nights, you know? And so. Yeah. Okay, so the question of. Is this just. Isn't this just porn? Like, I got that question so many times when I put up a question box about this episode that we were gonna record, and I'm super curious how you would answer that question.

It's a really tricky one. Like, there isn't Any specific definition of porn. Just like, there wasn't really a specific definition of smut. Like, I tend to use porn in a pretty broad way of just like, you know, any depictions of sex that are meant to arouse. So in certain ways, like, this does fall into that. But I do think that there are a lot of issues with the porn industry, the way porn gets made, you know, unethical treatment of actors, unsafe things happening on the set, like depictions of misogyny, violence against women. Like, mainstream porn, not all porn is horrible, but a lot of mainstream porn is horrible. And of course, you're not going to have those same sorts of issues with sjm, you know, holed up in her office somewhere, writing. Like, those same types of dynamics aren't there. But there are some similarities in the sense of, like, porn absolutely creates unrealistic expectations of what sex is supposed to look like. And I think there are some interesting comparisons around the level of connection that we develop to characters. Like the book boyfriends conversation. I struggled with that a bit myself, because you and I are in alignment. Cassian is our book boyfriend. Like, he was our favorite. We just loved talking about him and, like, he was the best. But I caught myself thinking, like, how would I feel if Xander became really obsessed with some other woman? Whether it was a fictional woman, a woman on a TV show, a woman in porn. Like, if he was talking about her, like, oh, that's my girlfriend. Like, oh, I can't wait to, you know, read more about her, watch more about her. Like, I would feel uncomfortable. And so I kind of. I kind of checked myself, like, through the series and said, okay, it's, like, it's fine for me to enjoy it and be kind of, like, silly and playful about, like, oh, that's my favorite character. But for me personally, I strayed away from using the term book boyfriend, and especially not around him, like, talking about it that way. Yeah, I tried to put myself in his shoes.

Yeah, I love that. And I think it really depends on your relationship and your partner. Right. And, like, just being really thoughtful and aware. I know I have a friend who. Her and her partner are like. Like, this is, like, fan. Like, this turns into, like, fantasy scenes for them. Like, it, like, actually turns him on too. And so that's beautiful for them, you know, And I think it's. It's about. Yeah, it's about knowing your partner and being thoughtful as. As we would want them to be for us too, you know?

Yeah, every relationship's different. It's a really. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm not. I'm not making any hard and fast rules here. For some people, this absolutely could be a turn on to talk about together and like, oh, tell me about your book, boyfriend. As I'm gonna be intimate with you. It could be super sexy. Everybody's got to feel into that for themselves. But I think it's a good first step to think about, like, how would I feel if my partner was talking about another person in this way?

Yeah, I love that. Okay, so potential spoilers ahead. Let's talk about our favorite books and, like, our recommendations. And also for the listener, as soon as you're done listening to this, go to the Show Notes. Because I compiled all the recommendations of the books that I've read and, like, a little synopsis. And there I listed them based on, like, how many reviews they have on Amazon. Not that that sign, you know, signifies that much, except for, like, how many people have read and reviewed that book, but how popular I guess it is via Amazon reviews. And so. And then also a ton of books that are on my TBR to be Read list that you. All that the folks that I've polled on Instagram have suggested. Also in the they're listed based on how many Amazon reviews they have. So just how popular they are. And we started off, both of us, with sjm, Sarah J. Maas, a Core of Thorns and Roses. And. And that will always be, I think, my first love, because it just is the book that opened me. It woke me up. And so those characters, Rhysand and Feyre and then Cassian and Nesta, oh, my gosh. And then Azriel, who I'm so excited to learn more about. I think that there's. In, like, the fiction world, there's this idea of like, like, gap theories when, like, there's gaps about somebody's story. And so then the reader gets to kind of take ownership over, like, filling those gaps and, like, create in their own mind who they want that character to be. And I think that one of the reasons I'm so into Azriel as a character and I just love looking at his, like, fanfic, like, fan art and hearing fan theories is because I don't know enough about him. And so I get to just like, like, create this, like, idea in my mind that he's like, I don't know, like, Shadow Daddy is Shadow Daddy. I. I do have a thing for shadow daddies, though, because in Throne of Glass, I think Dorian was one of my favorite characters. He's one of my favorite Characters of all time. Like, there was a TikTok once that was like, if you could, like, if you could enter a world that was like, all your fantasy characters were there. Like, who are you running to find fur first? And I love that question. And Dorian is one of them for me, because I don't. I. I'm rereading Throne of Glass right now, which is a series he's from. And I just. I love his. Like, there's something that's really vulnerable about him, but yet also really strong and really sexy. And. And I also feel like there's, you know, I don't. There's. There's more to his story. And so I think that there's, like, the gap theory thing there where I get to kind of fill in the blanks. And I just imagine he smells really good, too.

So there's so much emphasis on how everyone smells. Everyone has their own unique scent that's like, two things. Like cedar and falling snow.

Yeah, it's like, what does snow smell like? But didn't I send you a candle, like, after you finish Throne of Glass to, like, help you with your grieving process? And it was like, like the smell of Rowan, like, his, like, pine scent. But. So who are you running to if you, if you woke up and, like, all of your fantasy characters were in this, like, world? Like, who are you running to find first?

Probably Rowan. I. Yeah, I really fell in love with him so much as a character and his story arc. I just. I loved it. So probably him and then Cassian and Az maybe together. Because they would be together.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, at the same time. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I know. So Rowan is from Throne of Glass, and he. He is. I love. I love him, too. I love that he was the first person to be near and with Aen, who wasn't afraid of who she was becoming. Yeah. Yeah, she was.

Because really, do you. She was also my first, like, grumpy character, too. And I, I, I realized I'm kind of into the grumpy.

What was Aen's nickname for him was like, buzzard. You buzzard. You old buzzard. And there was something. I. I was into that, too. But let's actually talk about this piece. The age gaps. There are these huge age gaps in, like, power dynamics and stuff that come up. What are your thoughts on that?

You know, it's so funny. I never really noticed the age gaps as I was reading it. Like, I think we talked about it a little bit afterwards, and I was like, oh, yeah, I guess there was. But for Some reason it wasn't super present to me in the moment as I was reading it. And I think that these. A lot of these series that we're talking about are really interesting because the female characters are so powerful and strong and more powerful too. Yeah. So it didn't feel like age gap, like, in a porny or cheesy way to me, like, oh, it's like the principal and she's the cheerleader or something like that, you know?

Right. Like, these. These are like fairies that are, like, 500 years old and the human who's, like, 20. And so, yeah, that's a pretty huge age gap. But then obviously there's the storyline of, like, her stepping into her power. And in these books, oftentimes the male protagonist, like, stepping back or, like, supporting her or, like, kneeling to her, which is really hot too, so.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. We love a man who is comfortable with female power.

And. Okay, just really quick spoiler alerts ahead. If you. Spoiler alerts for all of SGM's world. So Crescent City, Throne of Glass, Acotar. What are, like. Do you have a theory of how, like, now we know that these, like, worlds have all crossed in one way or another? In Throne of Glass, we see Aelin falling through the worlds and Rhysand's power reach out to her. In Crescent City, we see them actually enter the Acotar world and the characters are now involved with each other. Do you think Throne of Glass is coming back? Like, how do you think. Do you think that, like, at some point we're gonna have all of these characters together, like, fighting the Asteri or the Valge or, like, the. Whatever. Whatever each world calls it. Like, are they all coming back? Please say yes, because I need more Dorian.

So I really think so. Like, I. It has to. She can't link just two of the series, but not the third.

Yeah.

So I. My hunch is that they will all come back together in some way or another, and I'm. I am here for it.

And so I heard that she's working on another book that is not these three. Isn't like another Crescent City book or another Acotar book. And isn't Fall isn't like, necessarily another Alen book. And I say that because the way that she worded it made me. Me feel like she is maybe gonna visit some. Maybe she said directly she's gonna visit. She may be visiting old characters or old worlds that we may have thought the door was closed on. And I'm really hoping that it's Dorian and Manon's story because I feel like there's a. There's more there. I mean, he's. He's supposedly has a regular lifespan and so like, at some point Emanan doesn't. And so I'm like, there's, there's got to be something more there about him. And the princeling and the witchling.

I would love to see that. I really, really want that to happen.

That is my hope. That is my hope. Okay, so in terms of our recommendations, A Court of Thorns and Roses. Sarah J. Maas.

Yeah, that's gotta be the first.

That's got to be the first. And then, and then do you say Throne of Glass or Crescent City comes next?

I say Throne of Glass because honestly, Throne of Glass is my favorite of all three, despite not liking it for four books. You were totally right. Like, I loved it.

Well, she started it when she was 16, so she was so young when she started it.

Yeah, it makes a lot more sense. I hope that. I kind of wish that someday she would go back and kind of re edit it because I think the books I themselves could be so much better with some better writing and editing. But I also just want her to continue making new books. So I'm a little torn on that one. But yeah, that ended up being my favorite series overall. But I don't think it's the best first series. I think Acotar is like the entryway. Yes. Everybody's gonna like it. It's a crowd pleaser. You'll like it from the first one or two books. So I say start there. And then I would read Crescent City last.

Yes.

And it honestly was not. It's. It's definitely my least favorite of the three. I'm not super sold on it because I don't feel as connected to the character, especially Bryce and Hunt. I don't feel anywhere near as connected to them. But the third, the most recent book, the third one, I did start to feel more interested in it. Like, okay, we're heading in a positive direction here.

Yes, for sure. And then you. And then we've both read the Emprean series, which is Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. I think my take is entertaining and like. And I was sucked in real fast. Like if from the, from the get go, you're like, oh, we're, we're. We're like going to like a war school. Like, there's dragons. Like, so it's exciting, spicy. I didn't love it as much as, like, I feel like the rest of the world did, but I Don't know what. And were you kind of on the same page?

I loved the first book and I would say, like, go through all of SJM and then read the Empyrean series. The first book is so fun. You read it so quickly. Could have been a little smuttier, in my opinion, but then I didn't. Both of us, we did not like the second book very much. I felt like the character. It felt like, wait, these aren't the characters that I fell in love with from book one. So I, yeah, I didn't love the second book, but I still think it's worth reading. The first one's worth reading at least.

And we will keep reading them as they come out.

Yes. Right.

Yeah, that's agreed. Yes, we'll read them together. And then there's the Blood and Ash series. And so this was a series that I recommended to you and I was nervous about recommending. Let's do. Let's do this section. No spoilers.

I.

Because, yeah, because we're doing recommendations here. I next recommended you to you to read the Blood and Ash from Blood and Ash series. And would you recommend that for folks? What are your thoughts?

I liked it, but I didn't love it. And so I would. I'm going to continue to read it. And I, without making any spoilers, like, I did really love the direction that it's heading in. So I think it might get more interesting. But for me, like, the. That the world and the storyline weren't as compelling as other things. But it was still a good read and I would still recommend it, especially for somebody who's maybe you've gotten through all of SJM and you're like, I'm desperate. I need to read something else. Like, it's a good alternative.

Yes. And so. And then you also read the Crowns of Nyaxia series by Carissa Broadbent. Yes.

This is the one that we. That you didn't love. But I actually really liked it. I think, think I would say Carissa Broadbent is a better writer than all the rest of the authors that we've been talking about. Like, her. Her writing actually feels like good writing. Her. Her world and story aren't as good, but I, I enjoyed it. I think I. I would say I liked that series better than from Blood and Ash.

Yeah. Yeah. And after you said that, I was like, you know what? I think it also, like, matters, like, when you read the book. And I read this right after my first read of Throne of Glass when I was. I was very sad And I was like, this was the most incredible series I've ever read in my life. And I. Then I went to that book and I think it was just like. I'm like, this is not. You are not Rowan. Like, you're not Dorian. This isn't aen. And I think that's what happened for.

Me with Blood and Ash. It was like, not the same. Not the same.

So I think when the next book comes out in the Crowns of Nyaxia series, and this is the Wings and Serpent. Serpent and Wings. Wait. Yes.

Yeah, it's always. Yeah, it's always a something about a serpent. Can't ever get the names. Yeah. Something with a serpent.

And I think I'll keep reading it. I'll have to find, like, a good synopsis. I don't think I'll reread it, but I'll get a good synopsis and I'll keep going. And then a book that I read was Zodiac Academy and the Ruthless Boy series. And I. You started the Ruthless Boy series? That's like the Dark Fae. And I don't think that you finished it. Like, you read, like, the first and you were like, it was okay. I started Zodiac Academy and I stopped because there was such a, like, bully romance thing theme going on that I was like, this just isn't my thing. I'm not into bully romance. Like, you're not? Like, don't. Don't bully me. Like, I'm used to Rhysand. Like, don't. Don't bully me. This is what I mean. And so I. I stopped and then I kept going and I found that I eventually got sucked in. Now, the series is huge, and I think that they could have ended it, like, several books ago, but I really do find the world really fascinating. I love shapeshifters. I love the magic that they have, and it's pretty spicy, so that's one to check out. But it's. It's bully romance in the beginning, and then eventually we get past that. And then. Oh, I did want to name a few of my favorite Germine. So I read a lot of Draco Hermione fan fictions. And I think that I started you off on the wrong one. I started you off on Manacled, which is really dark and actually is not available, I don't think anymore, for, like, the public to download because that author got a book deal. So she's turning Manacled into a actual book that's not Draco and Hermione characters, obviously, because she doesn't own those characters. But you found that book to be really dark and was hard to read because it was a character that you loved as a child going through a lot of trauma. And that was not fun for you, right?

Yeah, it was. It was very traumatic. I mean, it follows the plot of the Handmaiden's Tale too. And I had to stop watching that show because it was just too much for me. But I will say I once I realized, like, okay, I can't read all the trauma anymore, I went and looked up a synopsis of what happened in the rest of the books. I did want to find out and I was like, okay, that's really freaking cool. Like, yeah, the way that it fits into the Harry Potter universe is very cool. I just could have done without a whole lot of trauma. Trauma, Trauma, yes, for sure.

I found that book. That was my first dreamione book too, that I read. And I was. It was such a. It'd been so long since I had read Harry Potter and I really was like, it was so great to be back in that world, but it's a very dark book. And so that wouldn't be my first recommendation. For folks, there's the Mortifying Ordeal of Falling in Love, which is a favorite of mine. And if you just want something that's low stakes after reading something really intense and you would love to reconnect with some old characters and see what would have. What it could have been like if Draco and Hermione ended up, that's the one I would go with. And then I have a few others that I share on the PDF that you can find in the show notes of our recommendations. And then there's a bunch of other books that have been recommended by other people that like Divine Rivals, Cruel Prince, Shadow and Bone, the Broken Bond series, A Touch of Darkness, Crave, Shatter Me, the Bridge Kingdom, and then Bride, One Dark Window and Two Twisted Crowns. Those are some of the main ones that I have not read but are on my to be read list. And once I get there, after my Throne of Glass reread, then I'm going to come back to you, Vanessa, and be like, hey, which one do you want to read together? Because I love. I love reading books with you.

I know, it's so fun. I'm really glad that we discovered this and get to enjoy it together.

And I love reading with you as much as I have loved having this conversation with you. Vanessa. Thank you you so much. You have written a book and you're an incredible writer yourself. And so please share with the listeners who are avid readers and interested in talking about sex about your book as well as where folks can find you.

Thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate it. So you can find my book atsex talks book.com and it's called sex talks the five conversations that will transform your love life. Everybody knows that we should be talking about sex with our partners, but most of us don't know how to do it. Like what do I say and how do I not hurt my partner's feelings and when do I say it? So Xander and I wrote the book together to give you a really practical and very fun guide to having the kinds of conversations that are actually going to draw you closer together and get you having all the fun, exciting, spicy sex that you are loving in the book books too. So you can find that atsex talks book.com and then you can also connect with me over on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. We show up on stories every day and talk about sex and relationships, help you feel normal, make you laugh, and give you lots of great tips.

You really do. So I'll share links to all of that in the show notes for folks to go and find you and your book again. Vanessa, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you did, you might want to hit that subscribe button to be the first to know when future episodes air and go and explore some of those past episodes. Maybe there's a topic in there that you've really been wanting to learn more about. You can learn more about my private practice at as well as my parenting courses and workshops at the link in the show notes. You held space for yourself today. You carved out the time and you tuned in to this episode. I hope you take a moment to honor how meaningful that is. Yes, to me for sure, but also for you. Thank you for tuning in and I'll catch you next time.