195. Sex Talk & That Night in Miami: Sex Therapy with Vanessa Marin

I chased desire. I made sure I got what's mine.

All right, welcome to we can do hard things today. Every once in a while, and I say we can do hard things. Someone says, that's what she said. And it becomes sort of sexual, which I bring up today. Because today we are going to do very hard things, which means we're going to talk about sex. Sex. Since we are three people who. Well, I'll speak for me and sister. Since we are two people who don't know shit about sex and one who might, we have brought in an expert today. So don't worry, don't just turn the pot off. Right now we have someone who understands.

So you're just implying, Ben, that I know about sex?

Well, I just thought.

No, she said you might. I'm jury's still out. It's only been six years of marriage, so.

Exactly. But I do want you to know that I got sexed up today. I have my fancy sweatpants on.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was very.

And I have lip gloss on. Did you notice that I have lip gloss on?

I did, but I didn't know that that's what sexed up means to you.

Well, baby steps.

Yeah, baby steps. Ironically, to me, lip gloss is sex down.

That's right. See, I'm just.

Sex down.

It's a blocker. See, this is how little I know.

These are the breaks, peeps.

Vanessa Marin is a sex therap and instant New York Times best selling author of Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life, which Abby Wambach and I have worked our way through. Vanessa, because we do not recommend anything to the pod squad unless we put it to the test first. It was co written with her husband and partner in crime, Xander Marin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure and joy you deserve. First of all, hi, Vanessa. Hi.

I'm so excited to be here.

Before you say anything scary, I want to tell you why this conversation is so important to me right now. So I'm in this new therapy time of my life where I'm having to fucking deconstruct everything. I'm at the point where it's like everything's pulled out of the drawers and now I'm like, I'm too tired to finish. Can we just stop now? Recently I was having a challenge with a friend who I love, which is. She was constantly interrupting me. We couldn't have a conversation really because her way of communication was to get really excited. When I started Talking and then, like, ask me a question. And then I would start, and she would just. And then I couldn't finish. And I understood it was like a difference in how we two were approaching things, but it was a blockage completely for me because I kept just shutting down. So I talked to my therapist about it, and I said, I think I need to talk to her. I think I need to say this thing. And then she said, well, yeah, you do. And I said, but how do I know that I'm not just super sensitive? Like, I'm going to tell her that she has to stop interrupting. What if I'm just the one who's weird? And she said, Glennon, if 10 of her other friends think that her interaction with them is perfect and you don't, you still get to say that. You still get to express yourself because it's blocking your relationship. I waited till I was totally unactivated. Usually I have to wait till I don't even want to talk to the person anymore about it because I don't want to hurt their feelings. And then it is the right time. Talked to her. It went great. We have a better communication between the two of us now. It's like this magical thing happened. It made me think so much about sex because I tend to not express myself about things that I might want, but because I think maybe they're weird or maybe they're too much or maybe.

They'Re whatever in the actual sex acts.

Or, like, in general. I don't know.

You don't like talking about it?

Yeah, because it feels like, well, how do I even know that stuff's normal or okay? But then, because I don't express it, our communication is blocked with each other. Like my therapist said, even if the thing is weird, even if 10 other people would not need that thing to orgasm or would not need whatever it is your duty in that relationship and your privilege and the beautiful thing to get to express it so that communication isn't blocked. Because isn't sex, if anything, a place where your real self can live with the person that you trust the most?

And it's like a form of communication, right? Bodies communicating with each other.

So, Vanessa, you're here with two silent sex queens. And Abby. Hi.

Hi. You guys have no idea. When I listened to those episodes, I was crawling out of my skin. Like, I want to talk to them. I want to help them be talkative sex queens.

I mean, if miracles are possible, that will happen.

I think we can do it. Yes, I think we can.

Okay.

All right, let's do this.

So I loved your book. I loved the conversations. I was hesitant about it, but we did the conversations or are doing the conversations. So just know when you walk us through this, we have some specific questions that arose for us. Okay.

Love it.

The premise of your work is that there are several conversations you can have with your partner or partners or self even, that will make your sex life richer and better. Is that fair?

Yes. Yeah. I think we all know that we should be talking about sex. You know, when you're up late at night googling your secret sex questions, like, why don't I ever want sex? Mismatched sex drives. You see that at the end of every article. Like, just talk about it with your partner. But the articles always end there, and there's no advice for but what do I say? How do I say it? When do I say it? And so I really wanted to create a very practical guide to walk couples through these conversations. Exactly what to say, how to say it, when to say it, and really lead you through so you're not feeling lost.

Yes. It's cool. It's good. So one of the things you said was to try to set a ground or a foundation before you start these conversations. So in terms of asking the big questions, like, what is sex? And what is even the point of a sex talk adventure for. For us? So when we started asking each other those questions, we had some interesting things arise. Number one, even the question, what is sex? That took us a fricking week.

Yeah.

When people ask you. Because before we go on the lesbian tangent, we understand pod squad, that most of you are not lesbians, but yet I'm working as hard as I can. All right. But we do feel excited about centering the lesbian experience in this because you can learn from us. And also, that's not always the way that sex is presented. So when you ask people, Vanessa, and you work with couples and you ask them, what is sex to them, do you get a lot of different interesting responses that are not predictable?

Most people respond the way you did. Like, I don't even know how to start to answer this question. I think it's really fascinating that we all feel this pressure to have an amazing sex life, to feel like we're keeping up with everybody else and we're so great in bed. But a lot of us haven't taken the time to examine some of these very basic questions of what does sex even look like for me? And what does great sex look like for me? What is this goal that I'm even working towards? So that's why these questions might seem deceptively simple. What is sex like? What do you mean? What is sex? But if you really sit with them in the way that it sounds like you guys did, there's a lot of interesting stuff that can come up from that.

You talked about sex being a wider thing for you.

Yeah, for me, it's not just like, laying in bed with you and doing the sex acts. To me, when Glennon hands me coffee in the morning, that is, like, the beginning of foreplay for possibly something to happen at some point during the day for her to be in tune with what I love, what. What is really important to me, and to deliver those things without me asking that to me is the beginning. And so it's creating this feeling of, like, love and connection to me. I can't get into bed with you unless the connection has been developed. And. And that takes sometimes days. And I'm, like, more emotional in that way. I don't do it just for the orgasm. For me, it's the full experience. And so sometimes it takes a while, a week or something before I feel that real drive, that real connection to actually, like, be in the bed and do the thing.

And from my perspective on what is sex is that, you know, I'm getting in this point in my life where I am trying to be in my body more and. And experience desire and joy and, like, juiciness and softness more and more. I don't want sex for me to be about. Like, it's all about the end orgasm. Like, I swear to God, Vanessa, I feel like I'm, like, in hustle culture when I'm in bed. Like, we gotta. We gotta, like, success is this orgasm thing. It feels like a very masculine framing of the whole thing. All I do once we start is stress about getting to the end goal, which is this orgasm thing. And so we just talked about sex being a lot wider for us than that. And I thought, well, oh, shoot, maybe that's just a lesbian thing. And then I thought, no, I bet it's not. I bet it's like a woman thing or an everybody thing. Like, we don't want to have these talks, so we just orgasm more. But so we connect more into our little pocket of the place we fall into that is just for the two of us.

I love both of these definitions. I mean, I love orgasms. Orgasms feel delightful. They're great. But we absolutely can get into this hustle culture when that's the only goal that we're aiming for, or that's the only way that we define if it's been a satisfying experience. So I do talk a lot with women about orgasm, and so many of us struggle to even receive. A lot of women will tell me, well, it feels like I take too long. It takes too much for me to get there. And I'll ask them, like, okay, realistically, if we set a stopwatch when you started getting stimulation, how much time do you honestly think goes by before you start to worry that you're being too much or taking too long? And most women will respond, like, two minutes maybe. So it's this real struggle to receive and to be present in that experience rather than so hyper fixated on the one end goal and how bad of a job we're doing at getting to that one end goal. So I always encourage people to have more of this type of description of sex that you guys are sharing. You know, especially what Abby was saying, this idea that sex can be all throughout the day, that it can be this experience that we share with each other throughout multiple days. I mean, we're getting into conversation too, a little bit. Like, what do we need to feel connected to each other so we're not crawling into bed at the end of the night feeling like disconnected strangers and thinking, ooh, I'm supposed to have sex with you now. Like, what?

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So conversation one is that idea of acknowledging that sex is a thing and we would like to have it or you'd like to have it. I mean, a lot of people are in different places. A lot of people are in relationships where they're not having sex.

Yes.

What is the statistic of. Of relationships where they're not having sex? Like, a quarter of the partnerships haven't had sex in, like, a year. It's a real phenomenon that's happening, happening. So some people are coming to this because they want it to get better. Some are coming to it because it's like, oh, it's just the elephant in the room, and we're no longer talking about it because it's so awkward. I like that idea of even just acknowledging that it's a thing. Because if you're in a partnership and you want to be financially stable, you want to be raising your kids in a certain way, there's no other world in which we just think those things are going to spontaneously generate. You sit down and you have conversations about budgets and about your goals. You have conversations about your kids and what the struggles they're going through. And sex is the one thing that's like, no, if that was gonna happen. It would just happen.

It would just happen. I know. Yeah. We wanted to start with this place that just felt a little bit easier. Felt like a way of easing into it. Because the mistake that most people make with sex is we all have this belief that we shouldn't have to talk about it. It's a bad thing if we do. And so we don't talk about it until things are really bad, frustrating or bad, or we're not having sex, and then it all comes spilling out. We have a big fight. It just makes sex feel like an even scarier, more intimidating topic of conversation. So people retreat even more. So instead of going right in with, here's what I need you to change. Here's what I'm upset with. Here's what's not working for me. What if instead, we started with just getting comfortable with it as a topic of conversation, not even necessarily addressing, this is what sex looks like between the two of us. But just, can we get comfortable saying these words out loud? Can we get comfortable talking about it? So that's what that first conversation's all about.

And the specific ways that you suggest we do this is important. We notice this because sometimes throughout our relationship, we will think, okay, we should talk about sex. Like, we haven't been having it enough. We should be having it more.

I just think it's crazy that we all do this. It does such a disservice to all of us when we say we should be having more sex. Because that's based on fucking. What, like, culture is telling us we should have it once a week. We should. We should. We should. It's horrible, because we have. We need to be talking about fulfillment. What actually is fulfilling us and what is not fulfilling us.

Yeah. And shoulding is not fulfilling. Exactly.

Shoulding all over ourselves.

But the thing that I liked about the way you recommended having this conversation is that I have noticed if either of us says we need to talk about sex or immediately, it's like, icky. Like, I feel like I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. Are we in trouble? Are we not doing or, like, I will notice that Abby will feel defensive. So you recommend that the way this conversation starts is by bringing up a good old sex time in your life. Like, with your partner, probably. That's.

I mean, that's gonna be important.

That will be important. I wanna tell you about this great sex time I had with my boyfriend. Three in front of you.

Yeah. I mean, you know, sex is supposed to be a joyful, pleasurable, connecting experience. For us, a way that we experience true intimacy with the person that we love the most in this world. And if the only time you're talking about it is in negative ways, we should be doing it more. Why are we not having sex? It's not gonna feel great. And of course it's gonna put both of us on the defensive immediately feeling like something's horribly wrong, it's broken, we have to fix it, rather than can we talk about the joys that sex brings us and what we want to work towards having more of in our lives?

It's revolutionary. It did, because here's what would happen. Glennon would say, do you think we're having to have sex? I think we should have sex more. And immediately, because she's brought this to my attention, I go into, oh, I'm not craving it enough. I'm not actually initiating enough. She's having a problem with me. So then psychologically, I go down this little rabbit hole and indifferent to this idea where she'll bring up a fun time that we've had sex before. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Yes. It's like, oh, it's like calling us into our, like, high. It's like calling us into a higher self, like our highest, best self, rather.

Than it activates desire instead of shame.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly.

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Okay. Q. Vanessa, I want to ask if this is just a weird situation that we have or if you've ever heard this before.

Oh God.

Annoying thing. I noticed.

Annoying thing about both of us.

Okay. When we start talking about sex, an old sex time or whatever, first of all, it only lasts like 11 seconds because then I can't take it and I'm out.

But the conversation. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Clarification.

That was another time of life when I feel this annoys the shit out of me. I feel like when we start talking about sex, I go into this annoying baby voice. Oh, and Abby goes into this like fricking pat Sajak, Wheel of Fortune voice it's like she's selling a car and I'm a baby. Suddenly. What is that a thing?

And why this is the first time ever.

Oh, that's the thing.

It is.

That's a thing. That's your discomfort. So it sounds like you're able to do the 11 seconds of conversation. You can do it. You're experiencing the positive benefits, which is great. I love it. It's working. But then you're hitting the limits of your comfort zone.

Yeah.

And so that's when we start to go into the baby talk or the car salesman over the. I do this myself too. Don't worry. Like, there are times where I feel uncomfortable too. And so that's just our way of trying to kind of protect ourselves. We go more into a jokey mode, like, oh, I'm not really being serious. I'm just doing the baby. The cute little baby talk voice.

Yeah.

So the task for you guys is to see can we extend the 11 seconds to 15 and then maybe to 20 and then maybe to 25, where you can sit in that energy with each other for a little bit longer. Every time.

I didn't know that I went into a car salesman.

It does work. You're saying to your partner, hey, do you remember that time in, you know, Miami or whatever, you just like say that thing.

I do.

Do you remember that? Yeah.

Uh huh.

And it's like not. It's so different because when I think about when I would bring up sex to you and I would say, I think we should have sex more, it's not like I was saying that or trying to have sex. It wouldn't be in bed, it wouldn't be at night, it would be at 3 o' clock when the kids were there. So clearly I'm not really trying. I'm just playing a bike.

I have done the audit of our life and this is area in which we're failing. And I want it to be noted for the record.

And so that's really challenging for Abby to hear because you're sharing it at a time where you guys can't really do anything about it. And you're sharing it in a way where you're not making a request. So she doesn't know, you know, does Glennon want to be having more? Is she trying to initiate right now? And when we talk in terms of should, it's like we bring in this whole audience of other random strangers and what everybody else is doing, we're comparing ourselves. Oh, well, everybody else is having More sex than us. So we should, should be, right?

Yeah.

And then, Glennon, for you, it's. It's disconnecting you from your own wants and desires and needs. Like, it's easy for us to say, oh, we should be, or is it bad that we're not? And it takes a lot more work to turn inwards and ask ourselves, well, do I want to be?

Yeah.

And what is it that I want more of?

Yes.

That Vanessa has been talking to my.

Therapist that claims a lot of, like, responsibility in it. That would be an interesting way to start a conversation. Like, hey, I want to try this, or I wanna, I want this.

She would say to me, Vanessa, so like, are you feeling disconnected? Are you. Do you want. And I'm. And I'd be like, no, I'm awesome. Everything's great. I just feel a shouldness from the world. Okay. Wow.

And that's, that's a really big thing for all of us to sort through too. We all feel like we should be having more sex. We pulled. It's at this point, about 70,000 people have filled this survey that we created about how much sex are people really having? And we looked at what are their satisfaction levels? Do they want to be having more sex? Everybody across the board said, I feel like I should be having more sex.

Really? Regardless of their frequency.

Wow.

But what's the why there? Why should we be having more sex? What is this idea that we all have of the more, more, more, more, more we do it the better versus again that. That turning inwards of like, what is it that actually feels good for me?

Hmm. Sister, do you have anything to add as the token hetero?

If I could go back, I would say that, like starting this conversation as in, in the same vein that you talk about, do you want to have kids? Are we going to go to a church? Just acknowledging it as a factor of life as like, what do you imagine and dream sex will look like for us in our relationship? Because I am very sensitive and defensive and insecure. And so even when people suggest in all aspects of my life, when people make suggestions, I take them as criticism.

That is the truth.

And so I find even, even like beautiful overtures of like, introduction of new things, I take as, oh, you must not have been happy with before. Whereas if, if there had been like the level setting conversation of like, what we want sex to look like is ever evolving and trying new things and going on this journey together of seeing what's possible, then that framing and taking that framing into your relationship, then adding things and trying new things becomes a like, oh, look, this is consistent with what we've said. It's our mission, no pun intended, to try this throughout life instead of like, oh, gosh, this exciting new thing is exciting. But I am taking it as a secret shame of my prior failure to. To satisfy. Or else you wouldn't need this new thing. And I don't think it's ever too late to have that conversation. I'm actually, like, excited to have it. But I think it sets a framework where you can get off the like, oh, this is personally about my failing, that we're doing this new thing.

Exactly. Yeah. And you're actually speaking to a very common dynamic that comes up in hetero relationships where actually the man is the one that takes on that perspective. A lot of women say, you know, I don't want to suggest that he try anything new because he takes it as an insult that he hasn't been doing a good job previously. So that's definitely a dynamic that comes up. But, yeah, if we set this foundation of what is it that we want to experience together, that we authentically, genuinely ourselves want to experience together, then that helps reset all these other conversations down the line. So that's why we start with this one. And it also has the added benefit of these conversations start to feel like flirtation. And it awakens that desire and that energy because, like, yeah, oh, you remember Miami. I mean, the second that you guys said that, both of your faces lit up like, we remember Miami. Oh, yeah. So it just makes sense.

I mean, they're so excited.

I'm almost remembering Miami.

Like, oh, yeah, Miami. That's right. So it just. It brings us lightness.

A lightness? Yeah, like a zing and a reminder.

It's like a reminder. So it brings it to the top of your mind. Sometimes if you haven't done it for a while, like, you forget because you get busy.

Life is. And it gets scary once you haven't done it for a while. And there's questions in here. You can ask each other, what does great sex mean to you? What's your absolute favorite part of sex? And if you are bringing it up, it's scary, because to take sister's example, if you've never talked about finances, and then suddenly you bring up finances, it feels like you're pointing out something that's wrong. So you can just, like, have an excuse and be like, my friend gave me this book, so now we're gonna talk about the thing, Right? You can just use that as an excuse. What do People do who have never had great sex with their partner. Like, if there's no Miami, if we are missing Miami in our relationship, if we have nowhere to point back to, how does one begin this conversation?

That's a great question, and I want to normalize that. Not all couples have that hot and heavy stage at the beginning of a relationship. And not all couples have these incredible experiences to look back to. So if that's the case for you, I just want to assure you I'm a believer that great chemistry can be created. It's something that we can actively work on. But what you can do is think about things. Smaller things that you enjoy that your partner does. Maybe it's the way that they kiss you. Maybe they just give really good hugs. Maybe it's an outfit that they look very sexy in. So you're still talking about it positively, but we're just talking about smaller acts rather than some amazing, incredible Miami sexual experience.

Oh, my God.

And you have to. And you have to give yourself grace. Everything doesn't work right. So I've tried all your things.

You're a good student.

I am. So I would, like, walk in the bathroom and be like, you look great in that.

You did it yesterday. I put on a new suit. And she was like, wow, you look really good in that. It actually touched me.

Really?

Yeah, I noticed. I was like, huh? Before this book, you never. You were never talking about what I looked like. And I am. Every single day. I like, comment on the way that I like your beauty and the way that you're doing something different. And so since reading this book, oh, I should wear that suit more or.

Right. And that's complicated, too.

I'm not trying to.

Because I don't necessarily feel like that. It makes me feel seen to have someone constantly comment on the way I look. It's not like I'm trying to be mean back to you. It's just.

I absolutely don't think that.

Okay, so, Vanessa, we're gonna need us a private consultation. Okay.

So we'll talk about it afterwards.

Okay, great.

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I know we're still on conversation one, but I do do think in some ways it's the hardest one for people who haven't talked about sex before. So can you tell us about the post game too? Because this is a way of entering the sex conversation. If you are a couple who already is having sex but you want to talk about it more, you, you can launch the conversation in something that you call the post game.

The post game. Yes. Abby will be very familiar with these.

Right?

So.

So we always recommend starting with talking about sex outside of the bedroom first. Again, it's just setting that foundation like we've been talking about. But then the next step is to start talking about sex closer to the act itself. And I think that the best starting point for that is right after you've just had sex because it's fresh on your Mind. And it gives you specific things that you can talk about, like specific data points. So we don't need this to be a full, you know, 60 minutes. We're going through every single play by play type of thing. But it can be something as simple as that was really fun. I liked that position that we did. Oh, I liked the way that you touched me in this place of my body. So it can start very, very simple. But you're just using that recent experience to keep talking about the things that you liked, the things that worked for you and the things that you appreciate about your partner.

Yeah, that one's harder.

How does that feel?

Thinking about it feels sweaty.

So can we start simple? Like, even if it's something as basic as. That was really fun. I liked that I feel close to you right now.

We do those things.

It's the specificity that does it.

I don't know why that's so scary. The specificity. Yeah.

So saying, saying something like, I liked that. The way that you were touching me. Something like that. That feels scary.

No, I think I could get behind that. I think I could do that.

Okay.

I think it's just maybe it's the. During it that I. It's like shut down. Someone has pushed the master power cord and I'm like, vanessa, can you talk.

To sister about that?

Yeah. I feel like we need to figure this out. Like, why is this the case?

I just want you to talk to my sister about this because she says what the things. She is out in the world saying the things.

She.

She walks into a room, everybody waits.

For her to say the thing.

She says all the things. Why is she quiet? Can you just talk to her? Vanessa?

It's one of the most vulnerable times to be vocal. And that's why we set these conversations up in this order where first we're talking about sex, totally separate from sex, then we're talking about it right afterwards, and then we can work up to talking about it in the moment. So I want to normalize that. I'm a sex therapist and there are times that I catch myself like, I want to say something but I don't know how to say it or I'm worried about being awkward or it's going to come out wrong. This just happens. It feels very nerve wracking. But it's an incredibly intimate experience to be in that moment with somebody and communicating with them. Like, it forces you to be very present in that moment, very connected to somebody. So if we can sit with that feeling and get a little bit curious about it. If you picture yourself in the middle of sex and imagine trying. And let's. Let's again start with something simple like that feels good. If you picture yourself saying that, like, what gets stirred up for you?

I think that feels good is. Feels like totally fine. Because that is like an affirmative endorsement of what's going on.

The.

The like, what do you want? Or something like this feels. That's when I go mental lockdown. What is the underlying thing? For me, the most vulnerable thing is like, I need you and can you do something for me? And so it feels like the. The most concentrated distillation of that is in this moment where it's like in a sex moment. Because then it's like a. Am I supposed to know what I want? Why do I lack this, you know, encyclopedic knowledge of the things you're supposed to want? I don't even have the menu that you talk about to know and be like. So I'm supposed to say it, and then what if it doesn't work? And what if, like, all of no.

Control over getting what you want. Wow.

Okay. There's so many things that get wrapped up in this question. And actually in the book, I talk about how I think that what do you want? Is a bad question for us to ask. Really puts you on the spot.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

And it gives this idea that there is supposed to be this super specific answer, like, just circle my clitoris 10 times with your left index finger, and I guarantee you that I will have an orgasm immediately after that. Right?

Yeah, it's the.

It's an implicit yes.

It's an implicit, like, promise on delivery on my end.

Exactly. It's a request. And it's also usually made without any vulnerability. But on the other person's side, like, what do you want? Is like, you say something super vulnerable, but the person who's asking it isn't saying anything vulnerable. They're just requesting that you do.

Yeah, that's true. So how do we fix this?

So instead of asking your partner, what do you want? Which puts all the mental load and effort onto their part, give them options and give them two options. Because I think when we have two options to choose from, it narrows down the choice so much faster. So if I ask you, what do you want for dinner? I mean, that's one of our least favorite questions, right? If I say, do you want Mexican or do you want sushi? You're like, sushi or actually, neither one of those sound good. What about Thai instead? It's just Easier for our brains to focus and that binary so your partner can give you options of what to do. And the other piece of this, though, is that when we think about it in this way of like, oh, well, now I'm supposed to tell you something specific and I'm supposed to guarantee that it works. That's when we're getting into that very goal oriented, hyper fixated on orgasm thing that we were talking about earlier. Right? So rather than thinking about it as like, what do I want? What's going to make me orgasm? I like to think of it as what's something that I'm curious about experiencing right now. So maybe it's just, I would love for you to kiss me a little bit softer or I would love for us to pick up the pace a little bit. So it's not about what's going to bring you the maximum level of pleasure in this moment. It's just what's something that sounds kind of good right now. And then one other piece of this that I have to mention too is I make this comparison in the book that when we go into a restaurant, when I go order the chicken salad, I'm not telling a waiter. I guarantee you that I'm gonna love this chicken salad. It's gonna be the best chicken salad I ever had in my entire life. I promise you I will finish a bite of it.

You won't regret delivering this chicken salad to me.

What we're doing is I'm thinking, this chicken salad sounds good. I think it sounds good enough for me to give it a try. But I don't know, maybe I am gonna like it, maybe I'm not gonna like it. And requests in the bedroom can be the exact same way. I'm curious enough to try this. I have a sense I'll probably like it, but I don't know. And let's see, let's see what that experience is in the moment.

It's so much less stressful.

Great.

I love it.

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So conversation 2 so excited for the rest of the day is a question that you begin to have, which is, what do we need to feel close to each other? Is that. Am I saying that right?

Yeah. So it's going back to what Abby was saying of, you know, sex starts with the coffee cup. You know, that connection starts and we can feel it throughout the day so that we're not feeling like strangers at the end of the night, then trying to all of a sudden be intimate, intimate with each other. And this is something that a lot of people really underestimate. We tend to compartmentalize sex. We think of it as it's just this thing that we do in the bedroom with the lights off at the end of the night. It just happens over here. But we can't compartmentalize our sex life. Like, the level of connection that you feel or don't feel with your partner all throughout the day is going to affect whether or not you want to be intimate with them at the end of the night or whenever it is that you are having sex. So this chapter is all about what do we need to expand experience that connection, that closeness, so that intimacy doesn't feel like this huge leap.

Yeah, I have a couple questions about this conversation because you did make it very clear that there seems to be people who need emotional connection first so that they want to have sex. And then there's another type of person who wants to have sex so that they can have that emotional connection. And one of the things I think is cool and you just took a stand in this chapter and you said, sorry, the deal is that the emotional connection first people win.

I did. And that was hard for me to say because I am somebody who experiences connection and closeness through physical intimacy. My husband Xander and I, we can be not in a great place. We can be feeling disconnected and I can still want to have sex with him and know that I'm going to feel closer to him afterwards. And so I did not want the emotional intimacy people to win. I wanted my thing to go first. And this was something that Xander and I had a lot of conflict about in our own relationship. Before I finally put words to it, I kept feeling like, you know, in. In tough times in our relationship. I kept feeling, why doesn't he want to have sex with me? And what I eventually was able to realize is that he was feeling so disconnected from me that the idea of having sex didn't feel safe to him. And so I realized this really does come down to an issue of safety, and it doesn't mean that emotional connection is better than or more important than physical connection. So I want to be clear that, you know, at any level of intimacy, they're equally important. But it's that issue of safety. If one partner doesn't feel safe having sex with another person, that's a problem. So that's why I took a stand and I said, I think we do need to focus on the emotional intimacy first.

That's such an important point to make, because I feel like there's very few things in relationships that are quantifiable data points as to if you're doing quote, unquote, well in your relationship or not. It's like, you can't quantify. I just don't feel real close, or I don't feel real safe, or I feel like we're missing each other. There's no, like, check the box. Yes, that's going well, or, no, it's not where you can support it, but you can say, well, we're still having sex, but, like, not all sex is. Is created equal.

Right?

So you could be doing the thing where both of you feel radically distant, but you're still having sex. So, hey, it's not like we've reached that point that a lot of relationships are going through where they're not even having sex.

That's why the question, what is sex Is so important. Yeah, that's why. Because sex, it could be that sex, the act without the intimacy and safety, is not sex at all.

And I think for Xander, I think that was so brave of him to.

Say, because I think a lot of people in his position, they're not only, like, don't want to have sex. They're actually, like, mad that you do. Because we both agree that we're distanced from each other, but you want me to hop in bed and pretend like we're not. That can feel really insulting to people's souls, to be like, how could I possibly do this with you when we're not actually connecting at any other point in the day?

So this dynamic in male, female relationships, Xander and I are actually the reverse of what I usually see. It's usually the man who's wanting to experience, like, physical intimacy to create that emotional intimacy. And so this can be really interesting because so many women will say exactly that, like, it's insulting that you want to be intimate with me. And it feels like I'm not even a person. You don't even care about me. You just want to have a release, you know, with me. And it can create a lot of tension in relationships. So one thing that I lay out in the book is that for a lot of men, you know, we talk so much about crappy socialization that people of all genders receive, but men are socialized that they're not supposed to be emotional creatures. It's not safe, it's not acceptable for them. And a lot of men will tell me, like, sex is the only way that I feel comfortable being vulnerable with my partner, being truly intimate, being emotional. So I think it's really important for us to see that aspect of it. That even if it feels to you like. Like I'm just a piece of meat, how could my partner want to have sex with me? Can you imagine instead that those might be the only times that they allow themselves to be vulnerable and let down their walls and truly connect with you?

And maybe they're so desperate to connect with you, like I am so desperate to connect with you. And I agree with you that all these other times we're missing each other, and this is the one place where I can be assured that we are so, like, I need it even more because of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's. That's a really different way of looking at it.

Before we end this conversation, I want to ask if you are a person who is finding yourself wanting to say no a lot to sex in your relationship. You call it the bristle effect. I deeply understand the bristle effect. That every time your partner. Not. Not you Past relationships, that every time your partner approaches you, you just feel like, bristling and you can't even control it, and you kind of wish you didn't, but you feel bristling. You said if you are finding yourself saying no to sex a lot, maybe you're not saying no enough in other areas of your relationship. Oh, my God, say things about that.

That's amazing.

Yeah. I find that if you have that knee jerk reaction around sex. And to be clear, we are all allowed to say no to sex when we want, however many times we want. Nobody should ever feel pressured or pressure themselves to have sex that they don't want. But I have found that when you feel that knee jerk reaction and it feels like every single time, that's just the place that you go to immediately, there very well may be some relationship issues, some sexual issues for us to dig into as well. And it may also be a sign that you don't feel the agency to say no in other areas of your life. And this feels like the one place that you can say no. So that the no comes out so much stronger in this because it's that part of you that is not being expressed in any other part of your life. And when it gets a chance to come out, it really comes out.

Yeah, because maybe I wanted to say no to making dinner five times a night. Maybe I wanted to say no to not being the only one that takes the kids everywhere. Maybe I want to say no. Whatever. And then now you want this no. It makes a lot of sense to me that, like, the buck stops here, people. Exactly. This is my body, which will not be given up for you. Mm. Yes, exactly. When we come back in episode two, we are going to start talking about desire. What do we need to get turned on? Oh, fuck. Okay.

We'Re going to.

We're going to do it. That's what she said. We will be back with Vanessa, who is amazing. Don't you just think she's. So she says.

We'll see you next time. POD Squad.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the POD helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire I came out the other side. I chased desire I made sure I got what's mine and I continue to.

Believe.

That I'm the One for me and the cause I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks Our map our final destination we lack We've stopped asking directions to play places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do a hard thing. I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem Sometimes things fall apart and I continue to believe the best people are free and it took some time but I'm finally fine. Cause we're adventurers and adventure when heartbreaks our map our final destination.

We've stopped.

Asking directions to places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back Back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard. Adventurers and heartbreaks are mad we might get lost but we're okay with that you stopped asking directions to places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our lives bring we can do hard things yeah, we can do hard Hard thing yeah, we can do hard things.