196. How Glennon & Abby Learned to Talk Dirty with Vanessa Marin

Welcome back to we can do hard things today. We are back with a woman who is really helping us get our shit together when it comes to sex. It's. She's inviting us into some amazing conversations with each other. She's getting some fire started over in our home here. Vanessa Marin is a sex therapist and instant New York Times best selling author of Sex talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. It was co written with her husband and partner in crime, Xander Marin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure and joy you deserve. If you have not listened to episode one, please go back and do that because the first two sex conversations that she suggests we have are over there. I'm not reviewing them because I'm really wanting to get into conversation three, which is about desire. Vanessa, you say that your goal with people when it comes to desire is just to help them unlock their particular desire potential. What the hell does that mean?

Well, we were talking in the last episode about how most of us feel this internal pressure that we should be having more sex. We're shooting all over ourselves. And we talked about getting in touch with what are your actual desires. There is no one perfect number that couples should be having sex every week. There's not the magic number that's gonna make your relationship healthy and whole. We need to figure out what is it that feels genuine and good to us. So with desire, there are so many things that can get in the way of desire that can block it, that can eliminate it altogether. So I wanna understand what those blockages are and create the space for their desire to be in their lives with the understanding that their desire is going to look very different from somebody else's desire. There is no perfect amount of desire.

And you say there are me aspects of desire and we aspects of desire. What do you mean by me aspects of desire?

I think sex drive is something that happens within us. The libido is something that we feel like within our own bodies. And there are a lot of dynamics that just us on our own. No matter what partner we have, there are going to be different dynamics that come up. So maybe I grew up in a purity culture. Maybe I have a difficult relationship with my body. Maybe I have never explored my own pleasure and figured out how to bring myself to orgasm. So those are the me dynamics. The we dynamics are things that happen between us and our partner. That sex drive, desire, it's something that we foster between the two of us. So it might be things like we don't feel connected to each other. We're arguing. We haven't had any quality time. We haven't had a date night. Why would I want to be intimate with this person? It may also be the kind of sex we're having. Maybe it feels like sex is all about my partner, and there's not really much in it for me. I'm not experiencing a lot of pleasure. So I think it's usually useful to. To break down these dynamics so we have a little bit of homework in either area. Ways to get to know ourselves better and then ways that we can get to know ourselves and our partner, the connection that we create together.

Yeah, because sometimes we wonder why we don't desire sex. Wonder why our desire isn't higher.

I think it's a. It's a fear that has. It's like, embedded in us from the time we're made on this earth. And I think that we put so much more priority in your sex life than maybe looking at the whole of your relationship as a full ecosystem. And sex is a portion of it. And however big that slice might be is going to be dependent on you personally and you and your partner. And so I just. I get frustrated because I think that we are all conditioned to believe that sex is the most important and. And biggest indicator of how good your relationship can be. And desire is one of those things that is ebbing and flowing all the time.

Well, one of the points that Vanessa makes about that is sometimes we can wonder why we don't desire more sex in our relationship without thinking that maybe we're having shitty sex and that's why we're not desiring it. For example, I'm recovering from anorexia right now, Vanessa, and I would have told you a year ago, I don't need food. I'm good with my five safe foods. They're fine. I'm fine. It's good. I don't need all that shit that everyone else needs. I would have told you that, and I would have believed it a hundred percent. Now I'm eating all the foods. They are so good. Okay? I am like, abby, I'm at restaurant. I'm like, oh, my God. This is what everybody has been talking about. This is why everyone wishes I would order something else. I now understand that it wasn't that I didn't need food. It was that I was eating shitty food. So if your desire is low, it could be that you're not exploring all the possibilities of food sex. Do you understand what I'm saying, Vanessa?

Absolutely. It's funny how many comparisons there are between food and sex.

It is so funny.

This is a really important connection that so few people make. The enjoyment of sex and the desire for sex. And once you hear it laid out, then it's like, it clicks. Like, oh, my gosh, of course. How have I never thought about it this way, but so few people make that connection. If you're not enjoying the sex that you're having, why would you crave that sex? It doesn't make any sense to. I never crave eating a bowl of overly steamed mushy broccoli. No, I. I never crave that. Do I judge myself? Feel like something's wrong with me, something's broken with me? Why do I never crave overly steamed mushy broccoli? No, of course. And sex is the same way. If I'm not getting anything out of it, if I'm not enjoying it, which way? More people than you would think are having mushy broccoli type sex?

Yeah.

But why would we have this raging, wild, uncontrollable desire for it? It doesn't make any sense.

In fact, you point out that one third of women experience pain during sex, are in pain. So it's like, why don't you crave stubbing your toe? Because it fucking hurts, that's why. And I don't think there's anything wrong with me because of that. So if you think one in three women are feeling that way and then we're berating ourselves for not like, waking up in the morning being like, damn, can't wait to get that paper cut.

Isn't that statistic wild? Like that? Wild even. I've heard it so many times, I've said it so many times, and it still blows my mind, like one in every three women. And the statistic was the last time she had sex. This is not like one time in my life, years ago, I experienced pain the last time.

And don't you think that equates to a much bigger part of this ecosystem, which is that if we thought sex was made for our own pleasure and part of our inherent birthright to experience the joy of sexual encounters, then one in three of us wouldn't be in pain during sex, because we'd be like, this is a problem. This is getting in the way of my birthright. I'm going to go figure this out. And we would have the kind of medical care that would take that problem seriously. But I think it's part and parcel of this whole system, which is like, sex is A thing that I give to my partner. Sex is a thing that is an obligation and an important part of my relationship. Sex isn't this inherent part of me that I have a right to explore myself and get what I want out of it.

Can you imagine what the world would look like if it was men who were experiencing that much pain?

Like, it's almost like they'd be having drugs delivered to them on a weekly basis to solve that problem. Oh, wait, they already do.

Yeah. It's so interesting. One of the things that Abby and I have talked a lot about from this chapter is we desire is not only what turns us on, but when having this conversation, we often have to talk about turn offs. We have to talk about this for a few minutes. I mean, let me read from the book. Some of the turnoffs you've heard from people here are some turn offs. Trying to kiss me with coffee breath. Getting drunk, just getting naked. No, I need a little romance first. Burping and farting.

There it is. There's the one that I have very much listened to and input into our relationship.

When I bend over to pick something up, he comes behind me and grinds himself against my ass. Deep throat and phlegm clearing.

Oh, that's one of mine. Makes me shudder.

Yeah, that's one of Glennon's.

When he eats yogurt and it's so loud. Like how yogurt is such a quiet food.

That's my personal favorite one.

Me too. Initiating by pulling out the lube and tossing it at me.

Oh, that's.

Wow.

Can we talk about turnoffs for a while? And I. And I. I want you to just talk to Abby because we have this. No, because we have this impenetrable force and immovable whatever argument which is in your relationship, you should get to be your fully human self. But what if your fully human self wants to fart and burp and, like, do things that make the other fully human self in the relationship just wish for a little more mystery?

So the solution that Xander and I came up with for this is I gave him a safe space, a safe zone.

In our house.

I said, in any bathroom, you can fart to your heart's delight in any bathroom that you want. And it doesn't matter even if I am in the bathroom with you. That's your safe zone to fart.

Okay?

And that has been working well for us. And it gives me a little bit more patience for, you know, farting. It's a. It's a bodily function we don't have Perfect control over it. So the times that it just, you know, happens, I have a little bit more grace for him. But when I see him making that effort to go to his safe zone, that gives me a little bit more patience. So it is. It is a really fascinating question of, you know, how do we navigate different preferences here? And I think the thing is, neither partner is wrong. If for one partner, farting and burping and being in your sweats all the time, if that feels like intimacy for you, that's intimacy for you. And if you share that with your partner, though, that can help them realize, you know, it's not just me being inconsiderate and not caring about you and purposefully trying to turn you off and annoy you. But like that, the way that I experience intimacy with you. And if you're a person who gets turned off by farting, doesn't like, it doesn't feel like intimacy to you, you're right too, because that's your experience.

I can appreciate the turnoff value, and I think that I have taken that very much to heart. But we work together, we sleep in the same bed, we live in the same house. There's. There's going to be stuff. I'm. I'm never on purpose trying to do something.

I agree with you. And I think it's my body problems. I think it has to do with sex. I think this is all connected. If I am a person who cannot handle body things and being human, and that's why sex is a struggle for me, this is leaking out onto you every time you are out there bodying. I'm like, gross. Stop bodying. It's all connected. I want you to be able to body.

I know. Guess who you don't shame for farting.

Who? The kids.

Our children.

I know, because they're angels. I think you're right.

I think it has to do with body. But I think it has to do with another one of Vanessa's huge points, which is the power of anticipation, which is when our people are up in our faces around all the time, you know what's going to happen.

Guess what?

You have zero anticipation of anything because it's right in front of you. And so what I found totally fascinating is the data that anticipation of pleasure is equally impactful to us chemically as the actual pleasure.

What?

So that means that the anticipation of the extraordinary sexual encounter is as good for you and as happy for you as the actual sexual encounter. But we don't have the power of anticipation in our lives when we're in each other's business all day long. And we know what's gonna happen.

First, I wanted to do something practical for these moments when the farting or the burping or the humaning happens. So one thing that we could do is, Glennon, this is gonna be your homework is to think about what is something that Abby could say in those moments to remind you that she's not doing it on purpose. It's just her body doing body things. And is there something small that she could do in that moment that is a turn on to you? Very small. Maybe it's just a little wink. Maybe it's giving you a.

She's gonna fart and wink. She's gonna wink, fart.

All right, she's gonna fart. She's gonna say, hey, sorry about that. Just a reminder. That's my body doing body things. I wasn't doing it to you on purpose. Little wink, whoopsie daisies. To bring some wink face, some lightness to the moment.

Okay.

And then, Glennon, for you, your task is to remind yourself, hey, maybe this is my issue with bodies doing body things.

Yeah.

So it just a little tiny reminder for each of you in that moment, I think could bring some levity and some lightness to those situations.

I like it.

Okay, so let's go to anticipation, though. Yeah. This is incredibly fascinating research. How it was done was looking at people using slot machines. And so you would think if somebody's using a slot machine, you would think the most pleasurable experience would be winning money. What is more pleasurable than winning free money? But actually, dopamine levels, which is what gives us that, like, feel good feeling. Dopamine levels were highest when the person was pulling the lever of the slot machine. So it was actually that anticipation of maybe this is gonna be the time that I won the free money that was actually more pleasurable than the winning of the money itself. So I saw this research and I thought, God, I think there's a really interesting connection with sex here. So I started thinking about, you know, what is it like for us to anticipate having a pleasurable experience when it comes to sex? And this loops right back around to the questions that we started episode one with of then that makes you think about what is great sex. To me, I have to take that time to identify what is this vision that I want to have in my head that I can use to kick in that anticipatory dopamine that's going to get me excited. So this is just a really simple little hack that you can use to increase desire in the moment. And it's also a sneaky way of helping you get more familiar with your own desires and turn ons.

And I would say as the token non expert hetero, is that up until my marriage, I can look back now and be like, ooh, bad sex all the way through. Like, I have a really. I have. In fact, I said to my husband once, this is a sidebar, but I.

Said, just wanna let you know that sex with you is the best sex I've ever had.

To which you responded, thank you. So jury's still out. But I just wanna say that, like, I think the average hetero relationship, the woman in that relationship, and possibly the men but I don't talk to many men, are having the exact opposite of anticipation. So it's not only neutral, it's.

It's dread.

It is, I am doing, I am getting the kids through the thing.

I.

We're getting dinner on the table, we're getting them to bed and holy shit, now I know he's gonna wanna have sex. So it's the opposite of that, which is why the bristle effect. If you come hug me in the kitchen during dinner. I know where this is going, so I've gotta shut this off. We're not only not utilizing the power of it, it's the opposite that's coming in.

Exactly.

I have one thing I just want to ask you before we go into the next conversation. To me, desire is a very personal experience. It's happening in me. I'm going to do things to try to express my desire for Glennon. So in terms of creating this anticipation, would you say I should be thinking about maybe our next sexual experience that we have together in not just the things that we can do, but the experience both of us can have that could maybe cultivate desire? Because I do think for a lot of women our age, we're busy people, we've got kids, we're running around. Sometimes it's hard to cultivate desire because you're tired and you're busy. So is a good solution to that for me to think about, oh, what do I want? And also not having a goal, but having a high achievable possibility. Do you know what I'm trying to say here?

Yeah. So there's a great exercise that actually didn't make it into the book that I think could be really beneficial to talk about here. So a lot of us have this idea when it comes to desire that in order to have sex, we should feel this intense passionate need for it. I have to have it right now. And a lot of us have experienced that in other points of our relationships. So it can reinforce that belief of that's what it's supposed to feel like. But if that's the bar, that's a really high freaking bar. Especially when you've had a long day, you've been doing a lot of stuff, you don't have a lot of time to get yourself up to that level of enthusiasm can feel like a lot. So one thing that I like to suggest to people is can you think of other reasons why you might want to have sex? So it's not just that I'm feeling this passion in my body, I have to have a release. But what are other reasons? So maybe it's, I love the way it feels after we have sex when we're just lying there together and we feel so close. Maybe sometimes it's, I like to have an experience just being in my body and not doing, doing, doing all day long, you know, so if we can come up with different reasons and broaden that question so it's not just do I feel that wild, passionate, burning desire, but do I feel one of these other reasons that can make it feel much more doable? Yeah, in the moment.

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I want to talk about initiation and then sex menus, which might be my favorite thing in the whole book. I was just watching this movie called the Last Waltz, which is so beautiful just a couple nights ago, and the woman, the character Michelle Williams, keeps approaching her Husband, and he's, like, always cooking or always has his back. And she keeps trying to invite him to sex, and he keeps, in a million teeny, tiny movements and ways rejecting her. And then she steps away finally, after she's tried so many times, not in any words, but just with her body. And he says something like, you act like it's the most courageous thing you could do to, like, initiate, initiate. And she says something like, it is. It's the most courageous thing that someone could possibly do. And in relationships, the approach happens in a million tiny, tiny different ways. And then the rejection happens in a million tiny, different ways. And then so often the initiator gets gaslit by that other person. What do you mean, I didn't reject you? And both of you know that they did just with the turn of a shoulder. And so then there's this, you know, just galaxy between them. Talk to us about initiating and the courageousness of that.

Yeah, it is. It's one of the most vulnerable and intimate things that we can do, initiate sex with our partner. And this is another area where, you know, it feels easier in the beginning of a relationship, and that makes us get scared and worried about why is it so much harder as we go on? But the main reason that it can feel so hard is because you're asking for something that you want. You know, going back to what Amanda was saying, that struggle, especially a lot of us women, struggle to really express what it is that we want. And you're putting yourself in the position of being turned down, and hearing a no in any area of your life feels shitty. But hearing a no about sex when you put yourself out there feels really, really hard. And so a lot of us wind up initiating in these very subtle ways. We're trying to just tiptoe it or just do the bare minimum. That might give my partner the sense that I'm trying to initiate because we're trying to avoid that vulnerability. But that just turns initiation into exactly that. That very complicated dance of we both know what's going on, but nobody's wanting to acknowledge it, and it just. It's a million tiny little paper cuts. So instead, I think it's important for us to all be brave and be courageous and embrace that vulnerability and be a lot more direct with our initiation. And this is where I think the piece around emotional connection comes back into it, too, is to recognize for both the initiator and the person who's receiving the initiation, what you're really asking for in that moment is, I want to feel close to you. So when we hear our partner say, want to do it? It's really easy, like, oh, God, no, I don't want to. Like, why are you initiating like that? But if we can imagine that what our partner is saying is, I want to feel close to you right now, that just instantly softens up how we might respond to them.

Because when somebody. And this is. I'm stereotyping, but when a man says, want to do it? Or you talk a lot about how sometimes people use humor to, like, you call the boob honk.

The boob honk. Yeah.

You know, someone will. Will grab your boob. And that is like, so annoying. But it's also the other person's way of not being vulnerable. Because if I'm just half using humor, then you reject me. I can pretend it was a joke.

Just kidding.

It's like the baby talk voice too.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm not actually talking dirty or, you know, talking about sex. I'm just doing the silly baby talk voice. We go to humor when we feel uncomfortable and nervous.

Okay. This is a great hot tip. Pod squad. I loved this so much. You say that we only have, like one thing on the menu. So when. When our partner initiates or says, do you want to have sex? It's very confusing because you say it's sort of like asking someone to go on a trip with you. I mean, maybe, but I need more details first. How long's the trip? Where are we going? What do I need to pack? When do we leave? When are we coming back? I need. Need more information. This is brilliant because you suggest making a sex menu which is like, do you want Taco Tuesday? Which is just like quick and dirty. Six minutes we're in and out, the kids won't even notice we're gone. Or are you asking for like an hour long, whatever that is. Sex menus. Do people really use these?

This is some of my favorite feedback that we've gotten from the book so far. People are going all in on this exercise. I have received multiple pictures of actual printed out menus, collages, laminated like, I am dying. Seeing how excited people are.

Can you send us this?

I would like to send. I just need some, like, help, Some inspiration.

Yes.

Yeah. So there, there is that. The yes, no, maybe list in the book can be a starting point. We were talking before about, like, I don't even know what the options are. That's why we put that exercise in the book. Here are some of the options that you could do. So you can start there, but I love the idea of being very playful with each and creating a handful of different menus so that instead of just initiating this, do you want to go on a trip? Like, well, I don't know, a weekend getaway, somewhere that's within driving distance is very different from a two week long European cruise, you know, so having these menus of different options of what sex looks like can make sex feel more fun, more playful. It can be very exciting to make these menus together and to talk to each other about what kind of experience feels fun and exciting to you. What are the different types of experiences that we can come up with? And then the question when you're initiating is not just yes or no, do you want to have sex? I don't even know what I'm saying yes or no to. It's, here's a menu of options. Would you like to select from the menu?

That's so good. And it doesn't always just have to be about physical intimacy. I mean, the whole sex menu thing reminds me of when we'll be upstairs and there's lots of craziness going on before dinner and you'll be like, dance with me. I'm always like. And then. But then it's usually like three minutes of dancing in the kitchen. That is a menu item. It's an indication.

You always are horrified. You're like, what?

Every time?

And kind of like scared.

Yeah, scared. Cause it's so intimate.

Let's just do it.

Okay, here we go. Now we've moved from desire. Now we're having a conversation about pleasure. Okay, I even the word pleasure. This is a big deal for me to be saying the word pleasure. Pleasure, you say, this is conversation about what do we each need to feel good? I appreciated so much your honesty about this. In the book, can you tell us your orgasm story about when you and Xander were first together?

Yeah. So I am somebody who I figured out how to orgasm on my own in my teenage years. It felt pretty straightforward, pretty exciting to me.

Very good job.

But I really struggled to have an orgasm with a partner. And I actually never did. Up until I met Xander, I faked every single orgasm. I felt like something was horribly wrong with me. So it was my duty to fake it, to make sure that my partner, their ego didn't get bruised. Sometimes it was to make them feel like, oh, the chemistry is so good between the two of us. I have an orgasm in two minutes of penetration. And so I hit this breaking point. Before I met Xander, I had this awful experience having sex with Somebody who bragged about how easily he was able to make me orgasm. And that was just the line in the sand for me of, I'm not doing this anymore. And so when Xander and I started being intimate, then I had this whole other experience of, now I'm trying to allow myself to receive, but I still don't know exactly what I want. I don't know how to describe what I need, because I don't know what it is that I need. And I noticed that here's this guy who seemed very kind, really funny, really sweet. We were connecting and clicking in so many ways. But when it was us having sex, he would touch me for a couple of seconds, and then we'd scoot right on to having intercourse. And I kept thinking to myself, God, like, this guy is really kind of all about himself. He's not making any effort to pleasure me. He's not even asking me, did you come? And I eventually got really, really frustrated, and I finally blurted out something at him. A lot of the lessons in the book were learned the hard way. If I did the exact opposite.

I liked that about the book. I liked it.

I've learned better. But I said something up to him about, you know, it just feels like you don't care at all about my experience. And I said it in a very aggressive, mean way. I was upset. I blurted it out. And to his credit, he managed to stay really calm. And we had this conversation about Orgas. And he told me that he had had a past partner who told him, oh, you know, the best thing for you to do is not really pay attention to it. Like, women. Sometimes we orgasm, sometimes we don't. But just don't ask about it. Don't put any pressure on it. Just ignore it. And so he really thought that he was being the nice guy. Like, oh, this is what women want. They don't want me to ask about it. They don't want me to put any pressure. And it was such a fascinating experience for us. And this was really one of the first moments that I realized how important talking about sex is. Here we are having this wildly different experience. He's thinking, he's being such a good partner. He has the cheat code to what women really want. And I'm thinking, selfish jerk, should I break up with this guy?

Right?

And I very well might have had we not ended up having that conversation and realizing, like, oh, the thing that you think I need is very different from what I actually do need.

Wow.

And there's so many morals from that. Like a. Any Experience with a prior partner does not necessarily necessarily apply to another partner, but there's a little bit of truth in that. Like the whole like, I need you to come, I need you like that kind of pressure.

Not, not good.

Because we don't want that.

We don't want that.

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I'm not here. I've gone dead inside.

What do you mean?

Just. I'm just envisioning. Okay.

This is where we get into it. This is where the silent sex queens become talkative sex.

I'm going to ask you a question. Have you ever faked an orgasm with me?

No.

Okay. Because that is.

But that is because you told me early on that if I faked an orgasm with you, it would be absolutely devastating.

Yeah.

So this is a thing that I have done with you many times, Vanessa. I'll be like, this just isn't gonna happen. Like, I cannot. It's not gonna happen. And you are fine with it. Like you. I always felt like with men it was like some fucking ego thing or it was my duty. Like it was my duty to have an orgasm with a man. In the same way it's my duty to laugh every time they tell a fucking joke. That there is some imbalance of the universe that will happen if I don't perform. Because this is experience for them.

Yeah. Orgasm can feel very performative for us. So I do want to validate. It's totally fine to not want to have an orgasm in any particular interaction. Orgasm doesn't need to be the one and only way that we define a successful interaction.

That's right.

But I think the language here is really important. So it's not going to happen to me. I get curious about, is there self consciousness coming up for you? Of, I'm taking too long, I'm being too much. Maybe my partner is getting tired and just wants us to move on. Versus if you were to say something to Abby, like, I feel satisfied.

Now.

You know where that's a genuine. Like, I've had a good experience. I've felt connected. I feel filled up. I'm satisfied. I don't need it to have an orgasm. I feel satisfied without that. But that's a very different.

What a reframe. What? A reframe as opposed to it's not gonna. I just said it's not gonna happen. Like, that's hustle culture.

It's like a disclaimer.

Yeah.

It's also a disconnection. It's not gonna happen. That's something like outside of yourself versus a. And I feel satisfied.

Well, because all I want is to make sure that you feel pleasure. Right. Like it's my highest priority more than even having an orgasm myself. I'm always thinking, I would prefer. If we were to choose here. I prefer her to have pleasure and an orgasm. But, you know, sometimes it might not necessarily happen.

Yeah.

And that's also okay, by the way, when you say it's not gonna happen, that doesn't offend me. You can. You still use that. That language.

But I think Vanessa is right. And you know this. You say this to me all the time. It's almost always because I feel like it's taking too long. I always am. Like, it's taking too long, it's taking too long.

It's never. Not one time. It actually is sad to me because it's over.

I know, but Vanessa, I still don't believe her when she says what. I know, but I know that that's crazy to me. Crazy. But what I'm saying to you right now is that I still. When she says that, that's crazy, like it's not taking too long. I do not believe.

So. Do you.

That's what she asked.

Can we try something?

Help us through this. Yes.

Okay. I would love for Abby, I would love for you to describe to Glennon what does it feel like for you to give pleasure to her, and what does it feel like? Like as time is continuing on, your time is. Is ticking down, ticked on. What does that feel like for you?

And.

And so I want Glennon just to listen to it and see what gets stirred up for you as you hear her talk about what her experience is of giving you pleasure.

Okay. This is super personal, so I'm not sure this is going to actually make the cut, but that's fine. Yeah, here I go. I think that what I am experiencing in terms of our sex and me pleasuring you and you going through the experience is I am actually trying to. And this might sound crazy, but I am trying to experience your feeling, like, how you're. You're feeling it. Because a lot of times, especially with lesbian sex, there's one person who's getting stimulated and one person who's doing the stimulation. Obviously, there's lots of ways to have sex, but when I am stimulating you, I'm trying to experience it as if. If I am experiencing. I'm trying to feel how you're feeling, and that's truly what I'm experiencing. So when you're saying it's taking too long, you're cutting me off. That's taking that the experience I'm trying to transmit. I'm trying to literally experience what you're experiencing through energetic forces. I have never, not once thought. Never, not once thought, holy fuck. Hurry up here. And so I. I think that that's kind of my experience of it. And I think when your experience of sex might be. This is taking too long because of the history you've had with sex. That is not what I'm feeling. Does that any of that make sense?

So Abby is saying. It's not even that. She's saying, like. Like, it's okay, babe. I'm happy to hang in there with you. Like, she's saying, you're cutting me off from having an experience. That's how much I want to give to you.

Yeah.

So what does that feel like for you to hear, Glennon?

I feel like, first of all, I just cannot believe we're talking about this. Second of all, I feel like everything that she said is true to her, which feels like new revelatory information.

Do you actually think it's bullshit, though?

No.

You think I'm telling the truth?

Yes.

That's cool.

That's really cool.

I don't know if you understand what a big deal that is for me, but for me to believe that is a very big deal, understand what she's saying. And it made me think, oh, if I'm saying it's taking too long or it's not gonna work, it's almost. I'm trying to not be too much, but actually, it's kind of could be insulting to her because I'm like, you're not doing it fast enough.

I never take it that way.

I know, but, like, it could be.

Yeah. Yeah. So this would be so great for you guys to repeat this a few times and maybe even before you have sex with each other, for Abby just to take a moment to say, like, just a reminder, like, I want to give to you. It feels good to me. Every moment that I am giving to you is a moment of pleasure for me. So remind that, like, you need that repetition for it to really sink into you, Glennon, and to really internalize it. Another thing that can be helpful is, especially in the times where you're feeling a little bit of doubt creep up, is like, imagine that. That she is literally handing you a gift. It's a beautiful gift, all gift wrapped. There's bow on it. She's handing it over to you. And imagine yourself, like, do I want to just push that gift back at her? Do I want to ignore the gift? Or can I allow myself to take in the gift? And then for you, in the moment, you're still going to have the voice. There might be a little voice back in your head saying, like, I don't know, it still might be too long, or, I Don't know. I'm feeling uncomfortable. But if you can find a way to distill what she said down to one phrase that you could remind yourself of in the moment. So, like, okay, there's that voice telling me it's still taking too long, but let me remember her saying, giving you pleasure brings me pleasure. Or whatever it is like something super short that you can remind yourself in the moment.

I mean, I like that in terms of. Even when you talked about, like, I'm satisfied, I'm trying to learn how to eat that way, it's not like there's an amount that is right or too much or too little. It's like intuitively feeling like, is that enough for me? Am I satisfied? So bringing that into sex is just.

I wonder too, because it's like thinking about it. Vanessa, you just said something like, am I too much? You're too much. Ness is pleasurable to me. So you're almost withholding in some way more of my pleasures. When you're thinking, oh God, like, I'm taking too long, I. This is more difficult than it should be, or whatever the story you're telling, you're actually cutting me off from having the pleasure that I'm seeking in our connection. Your too muchness in your mind is what I'm in for. Like, that's what I'm here for.

Can you feel my hands right now?

Oh, my God, Vanessa.

I'm gonna have to change. I'm drenched. That was so beautiful.

And I'm very proud of you guys.

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I feel like I do want to talk about all the people right now who are listening that are like, fuck you, lesbians.

Yeah, yeah, I got a little bit of that going on.

Because truly, I mean, in the book, you talk a lot about, you know, orgasm and couples and all of the things about how we've been taught that we should all be having orgasms through vaginal penetration and how that's not a thing. But the really tough part of the chapter for me, when thinking about all of the hetero friends that I have, were the part where you talked about the women who the problem is not that their husbands don't know how to give them an orgasm or that they're faking or that whatever, is that their partners don't care if they have an orgasm. The quotes that you have about, you know, my husband says he doesn't feel like taking the time to make sure I orgasm. My boyfriend won't go down on me, even though that's the only way I orgasm, because he says he doesn't enjoy doing it. When my husband and I have sex, it feels very one sided. He reaches climax and then he stops and leaves me hanging. I mean, what the hell? What do you do then?

So first I do want to say that these men really are in the minority. Okay, that's great.

That's awesome.

So one thing that I. I really want women to be able to internalize is the odds are that your partner wants to give to you the same way that Abby was just describing wanting to give to Glennon. Like, I think that's really hard for a lot of us to believe, but whenever I talk to men, 99% of them are like, no, I genuinely enjoy giving. It's not a, okay, fine, sure, you can have your 10 minutes. It's a, I am getting enjoyment in every single one of these minutes, no matter how long it is. That being said, of course, there are people who are selfish in the bedroom who are really big jerks. Like, some of those stories that I got just absolutely shattered my heart. But for me, one of the most interesting experiences writing this book, writing it with Zander, was that we had a lot of these conversations for the first time or in a new way. And one of the things that he was sharing with me is all of the pressure that he felt growing up as a man around being good in bed. And he would tell me, you know, I feel like I'm always supposed to be the initiator. I'm always supposed to want it more. I'm always supposed to know exactly what to do at every step of the way. I'm supposed to pull the interaction direction along, be in control of it, and I'm supposed to Give you this incredible jaw dropping orgasm that no man has ever given you before. And when he first shared that, I kind of laughed like, okay, yeah, whatever. And he kept saying, like, no, like, you don't understand. Like, it's very painful for me. And he's a very, like, very progressive feminist man. You know, I didn't expect that level of pain that he had just growing up, you know, internalizing all of that pressure. And what I came to realize is I think a lot of these stories where, of course, on the surface, these men are being raging assholes and it's completely unacceptable to treat your partner that way. And I think it's a reaction that's coming from a place of really deep pain and wounding. And there's an opportunity there for both partners to realize the ways that they are in pain and the ways that they're causing each other pain and to have a really beautiful healing. So that was actually the story that I tell at the very end of the book. One of those women who I. I admitted, like, I felt very cynical about this. I was like, kick this guy to the curb. Get rid of the whole man. And she reached. She reached back out to me to share an update story of very similar dynamics coming up for him, of all this pressure that he felt as a man and all these things that he had seen in porn and stuff. He was taught by purity culture, and he learned to totally change his approach, and he understood the pain that he was causing her. So I do think there's an opportunity.

Here for couples, but only if you talk.

Only if you talk about it.

And this is the magic of what you're getting people to do here. I liked how you talked about how so often one partner will fake it or in order to protect. To save an ego. Right. Or to save a fake piece or whatever it is. But we're doing that at the sacrifice of our real connection. Like, are you actually trying to save an ego or save your relationship? Because it's only an opportunity if we tell the truth. Vanessa, dang sister, did you want to say something? Because I was going to already try to get Vanessa to commit to coming back to talk to.

I've written notes on my hand.

You have? She's never done that before in a podcast. I really do want to ask you if you'll come back to talk to us about fantasies and. And I have so many questions and talking dirty because, oh, my God, I feel like you have an entire.

I really want to make you guys talk dirty a little bit.

Yes.

Can we do it in the sex time. Okay.

All right. Oh, my God.

I still gotta work on talking clean.

And then we can start with.

That's okay.

We can start. Let's start with talking clean. But this was the thing that really. That really got me listening to those past episodes. I was like, we've got some work to do here. So I think a lot of us, we think of talking dirty as. It has to be dirty. It has to be like what you see in porn. Very over the top and super explicit and corny.

Yes.

That's not the only way to talk dirty. It can be talking clean, but the whole point of it is being able to talk to each other during sex. Like that is one of the most intimate experiences to share with each other because you have to be. You have to be present in the moment with yourself, your own body, your own experience, and you have to be willing to share that with your partner. So I know it sounds big and scary, but I have a very practical exercise that we can do to ease our way into it if you guys feel comfortable with it.

I am super comfortable, Vanessa.

Okay. I want us to pick a phrase that feels straightforward, forward, so. And it can. It doesn't need to be explicit at all. Something like that feels good.

Okay.

I like that. Keep going. Anything like that. So, okay. Do you guys have a phrase that comes to mind?

Yep.

Should we say it out loud?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Oh, we have to say it.

I mean.

Yeah, this is gonna help you. This is gonna help you.

I've got like three go to's. All right, Vanessa, I've got.

Wait, wait.

No, no, don't. Feels good.

Let's do a different.

Oh, my God.

Let's do a different one.

A different one.

Oh, touch me there.

Touch me there.

Okay. Touch me there.

Does that feel like something that you want to get comfortable saying?

What do you want to say?

I mean, I. Truthfully, what I. Oh, my God. What I usually want to say is, like, slow it down a little bit. Thank you.

Oh, okay.

This is so important.

Okay, so what we're going to change that around to. I love it. I'm so appreciative of you guys going there. So I talk a lot about feedback in the book. We're gonna turn it around into. I want you to slow down. Turn it into. It feels so good when you go slow.

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

Okay, so this is what we're gonna do is first, I just want you to say that a few times out loud, and you can look away from Abby you can close your eyes, whatever you wanna do to make yourself more comfortable. But just repeat that phrase and let yourself laugh. Be awkward, get the giggles out, but just repeat it until you're gonna feel this moment where it kind of sinks in a little bit. Like, okay, that wasn't so bad.

Okay. So, like, you want me to say that out loud?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And so for most people, are they saying it to a million and a half people who are listening? Okay, it's fine. Vanessa. It feels so good when you go slow. It feels so good when you go slow. It feels so good when you go slow.

Don't. Don't look at her yet.

Nope.

Nope. It feels so good.

Yeah, just keep going. You can close your ey, otherwise you can look away, but just keep repeating it.

It feels so good when you go slow. Okay, I've got it. I've got it.

Do it one more time.

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

Okay. And say it even slower.

Okay, let's do it one more time. It feels so good when you go slow.

Okay. Does that feel more comfortable? You want a few more repetitions?

Um, I just think since I'm on a podcast, I'm not gonna feel fully comfortable, but I think we've gotten to the threshold of comfortability that I'm going to reach.

Okay.

She is sexy.

So now can you and Abby look at each other? And I want you guys to go back and forth saying the phrase. So, Abby, you're gonna say it too.

Okay.

And again, when you say it at first, giggle. It's okay. Be silly, laugh about it, look away, close your eyes, whatever you need to do, but just keep repeating it. And you're just gonna go one person at a time, going back and forth.

Okay.

Just keep repeating it until it starts to. You get that sinking in feeling of like. Okay, that felt a little bit easier.

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

It feels so good when you go slow.

Keep going.

It feels so good when you go slow.

It feels so good.

I feel like you're so much better at this than me. It's just like being in bed.

No, it's okay. Do the baby talk voice a few times. Get all the energy out around it.

It's okay.

This is exactly what the exercise.

It feels so good when you go slow.

It feels so good when you go slow.

Slow. It feels so good when you go slow.

It feels really good when you go slow.

Ooh, some ad libbing. It feels so good when you go slow.

It feels really good. When you go slow.

I'm good.

Oh, my gosh.

I want you guys to do it when we're off camera. When we're not, look at Sister.

She's like.

And repeat it a few more times.

Okay.

But just. It's. We just need the repetition. We need that repetition for. To settle in, for us to get a little bit more comfortable and so you can break it down into steps like this. So for some people, you might even want to start by yourself. I'm just going to do it in my room with the door closed. Nobody's around. I'm just saying that phrase, and then you're in the same room, but maybe you're looking away, you're closing your eyes, and then eventually the two of you looking each other in the eye and saying it back and forth.

I love it.

And the next step from there would even be, can you play around with the tone, with the inflection and see what feels the sexiest for you? So is it when you put the emphasis on it feels really good. Is it. You know, the emphasis is on the slow. So play around with the tone, the delivery of it, until you find that way of saying it that just like, ooh, yeah, that feels good. And that feels like me, too.

This is like.

It's finding the words and the delivery that feels like us rather than, oh, that's what I saw in this cheesy porn.

Yes, Vanessa, you're really good at this.

Yeah, this is my personal podcast. I feel.

And Amanda, I'm sorry we didn't. We couldn't do it with you, but.

You know, she do not have enough time for me. Vanessa.

Vanessa, thank you for your work, everybody. Go get sex talks. I'm telling you. Thank you, Vanessa. I love you, Pod Squad. I did really, really freaking hard things for this Pod Squad today. Yes, you did.

You're laying it.

Proud of all, leaving it all in the field. Doyle, feel today we can do more things, y'.

All.

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