213. Sex Fantasies: What Do They Say About Us? with Vanessa Marin

Welcome back to we can do Hard things today. Okay, so Abby's laughing already because. Okay, how do we set up this? I. So we had Vanessa Marin on the pod for two episodes recently that were all about sex and the pod. The pod squad had a big response to it, and we did two because we ended up, much to my chagrin, in an actual, like, sex therapy exercise where we had to talk dirty to each other.

Did you have a vulnerability hangover?

Yes. And so when we did those episodes, they were so awesome. But we didn't get to this last category of things that Vanessa talks about in her book, which is how to spice up your sex life when things have gotten a little bit bland. And a big topic inside of this chapter is about fantasies. Okay. Sexual fantasies.

By the way, those two episodes you're talking about are episodes 195 and 196. If you choose to go back and listen and just pray for Gwen and retroaction.

I just have to say, before we get into it, I was so proud of all of you. I couldn't believe that you went there, that you allowed me to be your guide in going there. It was such an honor. And I'm sure you guys have gotten a ton of feedback. I've gotten so much feedback from people saying that was unreal to listen to. So I just have to thank you. You did very hard things in those episodes.

We did. We really did.

You're really good at this, Vanessa.

Thank you.

You're very, very. We talked about it right after. We're like, we need to have her back right away because you're very good at challenging but also being very easy to talk to and feel safe with. Vanessa Marin is a sex therapist and New York Times bestselling author of Sex the Five Conversations that Will Transform youm Love Life, co written with her husband, Xander Marin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure, and joy you deserve. Today we asked if you would come back to talk to us about exploration. So the reason she's laughing is because, Vanessa, right before, like, five minutes ago, when we logged on and we're waiting for you, Abby kept. She just kept saying the word fantasy, and I kept screaming at the top of my lungs because it makes me so uncomfortable just the existence of that word. I don't even think the word should exist.

Did she do the car salesman voice with it, too?

No.

What's your fantasy?

Step right up for a brand new fantasy.

There's few things that, like Glennon struggles to talk about. And this is one of them, right? And it makes me giggle because I know what she's feeling on the inside when she says the word.

And to my credit, whenever there's something I can't talk about, I always want to talk about that thing the most, right? So here we are. I have requested this goddamn episode.

Okay, we're doing it. We're doing it again.

So she gets no more credit throughout this episode. Please just give her her credit now. Yes, you have all my credit. I almost requested not to be on this episode just because I can't even watch. My level of discomfort with you being uncomfortable is like a bridge too far for me.

And just before we jump in, I want to say, if you're wondering why Vanessa said that Abby has a used car salesman voice, you have to listen to the episode. What episode is it, sister?

It is 196 says the talk dirty, but 195 is not to be missed. That night in Miami.

Oh, God. So Vanessa had us talk, practicing talking dirty to each other. And I was doing my best while sweating from head to foot and speaking as if I was a robot who had just been put on the planet. And Abby was speaking in a voice like she has been recording erotic novels for a decade. Like it was.

It was actually borderline suspicious.

It was suspicious and so annoying, I had to end it. Okay, so anyway, here we are.

I do like it when you go slow.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, Jesus.

She was very good at it. I have to know, did you guys continue doing that exercise after the episode?

No.

I didn't know if you were gonna be honest.

Not one time. Vanessa. All right, baby steps.

Baby steps.

We did it publicly, and we're yet to do it back privately.

I am someone who can do something in front of millions of people that I cannot do in front of one person, and that is a real serious thing for me, and I'm working on it with my therapist. But, Vanessa, I am glad that you, whom I have never met in person, has been a part of my most intimate moment.

I'm very honored. I'm deeply, deeply honored.

So can you talk to us about what the white toast problem is?

The white toast problem is my way of describing the quality problem that a lot of us are having with sex. I think a lot of us are more concerned with the quantity of sex. We have it in our heads that there's this magic number that we're all supposed to be having, and as long as we hit that number, we're okay. And we don't really think so much about the quality. Quality of the sex that we're having. But I like to make the connection in sex talks between the quality of the sex that we're having and our desire for it, our enjoyment of sex and our desire for it. I love food, so every comparison that I make somehow comes back to food in one way or another. And so the way that I was phrasing it is, do you ever find yourself craving just plain white toast for breakfast every single morning? Right. Like, maybe every once in a while, white toast might sound like, okay, sure, that sounds fine. Maybe it's vaguely comforting if I, you know, okay, sure, I can try it every once in a while.

If you've been sick for a while.

Yes, sure. That's usually so. There's nothing wrong with white toast, but it's not something that we get excited about or that we crave. And so a lot of us are having what I call white toast sex. It's predictable, it's routine, it's not particularly exciting. So there's not much to get excited about, and there's certainly not much to crave about it. So I think if we focus on the quality of the sex that we're having, on improving it, making sure it's pleasurable and enjoyable and satisfying for both partners, that's a so much better of an approach than just trying to find that magic number of quantity that's gonna work for you.

I love that. And it reduces the shame around not wanting sex because we're all like, why don't we want it more? Why don't we want it more? But you're saying sometimes we don't want it more because we don't want things that are boring.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's so easy for us to feel like something is wrong with us or broken with us if we don't desire sex all the time. You know, we have this idea that we're supposed to want sex all the time. And to be clear, like, desire, it's not just about enjoyment. There are plenty of other reasons why we might not desire it. And more isn't always better. Like, everybody has a natural frequency that works for them and for their relationship. But if we look at our actual enjoyment of it, it really does take the shame away and help us realize, like, there's nothing wrong with you or broken with you. Why would you enjoy plain white toast for breakfast every single day?

Can I admit something that had never occurred to me, which is somewhat embarrassing, until I read your book? I had just always Been thinking of it. Well, a. I'm just huge fan of women and feminism and the fact that, you know, women's pleasure has been historically and absurdly overlooked. Period. And mostly in sex, too. And so many women have never had an orgasm. I didn't realize. Oh, God, this is embarrassing. But I thought, okay, guys are fine. They're having an orgasm. An orgasm equals an orgasm equals an orgasm. Same, same. And not until reading your book did I realize.

She's whispering now I'm whispering because I.

Don'T want anyone to know that I didn't know this, that it's not the same.

What do you mean?

So a dude can be having sex with you, have an orgasm, and you're like, check, everything's good. But it's not even remotely in the same category as another time that they have sex and they have a different kind of orgasm.

What?

Where was that in the book? I must have skipped the man orgasm parts.

Yeah, you were like, not applicable.

Here's a way of summarizing it is that men, and really people of all genders, but we want to be having sex with somebody, not having sex to somebody. And I think because we have all these stereotypes of men of as, oh, they want sex all the time. They'll take whatever they can get. They just want the orgasm. Like, you're saying there are a lot of women who are forcing themselves to just let their partner have sex with them. Like, oh, I'm supposed to give him what he wants. This is my wifely duty. I'm putting that in air quotes. And so they'll just allow it to happen. And they think, oh, an orgasm is an orgasm. He's getting his. He should be satisfied. But so many men tell me, that's not what I want. I want my partner to be present in the moment, to want to be with me, to be connected to me, to be enjoying it as well. It's similar to what we talked about last time with Abby saying, like, Glennon's pleasure is just as important, if not more important to me than my own. Like, that's what so many men are experiencing. So it's not just, yeah, I had my orgasm, great. I'm done with it. It's. I want to be having sex with my partner. I want to be experiencing something with them.

It just didn't occur to me. I understand why guys ask women that. Like. Cause sometimes it's not as obvious. Or sometimes if she does an orgasm, there's like, okay, we talk about it and make sure it's better. But I've just never. If a guy has an orgasm, I'm like, ma, I know it was good, so now we're done. Instead of talking about it and being like, was that or was something better than that or was. I just didn't even know that was a thing. Didn't know.

Yeah. I talk a lot about the crappy socialization that women receive, but men get a lot of crappy socialization and messages about them too that yeah, they're just in it for the orgasm. That's all they care about. When the reality is they're complex emotional creatures too and they're wanting intimacy and connection just as much as somebody of any gender is.

Didn't know that. Okay, so in terms of, of the inhibition effect, I think this is interesting and rings true to me in that you would think that the longer you know someone and the more intimate and close you are, the easier it would be to ask for new things or share fantasies. But you say no.

Yeah. I have noticed what I call the inhibition effect, that the longer we're in relationships, the more narrow sex starts to look. So yeah, just like you're saying, you would think I'm more comfortable with you. We've known each other for longer. I should be willing to try new things, push my comfort zones. But if you look at the reality of what's happening for most long term couples, the way that they have sex, like you can script it out. You know exactly what sex looks like. It's 30 seconds of this and then it's 10 seconds of groping and it's 5 seconds of K and then we do it in this position and it takes this long and you know, then we jump up afterwards. Like it's just so predictable. We can script it right out. Yeah. So yeah, I've actually found that our, our sense of vulnerability seems to increase the longer that we've been with somebody we feel too embarrassed to like, oh well, we've been doing it this way for that long. I can't suggest something new or I would hurt my partner's feelings if I asked for this. Or I don't want to suggest this and get turned down. Cause it's going to hurt so much more now than it would have when we were just starting to date.

It sounds counterintuitive, but it's not. When you think about any long relationship as a pattern, like the hardest patterns to break are not with a new friend, they're with your mom. Yeah, it's like the longer a relationship goes, the more the pattern is ingrained and the harder it is to change any of it. Which is what makes this conversation so hard for so many people.

Yeah.

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So you say when your sex life got a little bit stale, you asked Xander, so what are your fantasies? Do you have any fantasies?

Uh huh.

Tell us about that conversation.

So this is early on in our relationship. We were starting to get into that, you know, the routine after a few months or maybe it was a year or something like that. And, and so I remember asking him that question and just expecting to hear this, you know, very long laundry list of all these fun, new, exciting things that we could try out. And then I could prove to him that I was so adventurous and down for anything too. And he said, I don't really have any. And that absolutely blew my mind. Until he turned the question the way you were hoping, not in the way I was hoping. Until he turned the question around and asked, what are your fantasies? And I thought, I don't really have any either. And so what I realized in that moment is that's really the wrong question for us to be asking because I think a lot of us have built the idea of fantasy up in our head to mean something so much bigger than what it needs to be. So if you think about what's your fantasy? A lot of us think it has to be this really elaborate scenario, like we're role playing. We're in a different era, there are costumes involved, there's like a power dynamic. And it's something that we feel like, you know, it's this secret desire. It's guaranteed to make us orgasm. It's gonna be wilder than any sex we've ever had before. So it just feels like a really big thing. And so instead I think it's so much more useful for us to ask each other what is something you're curious about trying? Because that brings the bar so much lower. It's. I'm not guaranteeing that I'm going to like this. It's not. This is the one and only thing that defines a peak sexual experience for me. And it doesn't make it feel like it has to be this big, elaborate, detailed thing. So, I mean, to be clear, if you have a very elaborate fantasy that's always awesome and wonderful and you should explore that, but not everybody does. And it's okay if we don't have anything elaborate like that.

Okay, I have to stop you there, because this is where I get confused. Just. Just this one place in my life. It's just about this. But aren't they two different things? Or not. Aren't there things that people have a fantasy about, Meaning that they think about it and it makes them very excited to think about the thing, but they don't ever want to try it in their real life? Absolutely. I can think of some things which I am effing not going to say, no matter what kind of magic you do, Vanessa Marin on my head that are in my brain that can be activated and go, okay. And if I would never in a bazillion trillion years want it to be acted out in any way in my marriage, is it two different things?

Yeah. So people definitely do have fantasies. Absolutely. But if you're somebody who freezes up to that question or you feel really put on the spot, you feel like you don't have an answer, the what's something you're curious about trying might be a better path for you to explore. But if you're somebody who says, no, I actually do have fantasies. There are things that come to mind that's normal and great as well. So they are like two different things. What you're speaking to is a very common misunderstanding about fantasies. A lot of us think, oh, if I have a fantasy about something, that must mean that I want to try it. And even if I feel nervous or I'm not sure I would want to, it's my fantasy. So secretly, I actually do want to try it. And that's just not true. Plenty of us have fantasies that are fun to play with in our minds, but we wouldn't want to do in real life. And we have these outside of the bedroom, too. Like you might have fantasized about. Somebody pisses you off. And I fantasize about saying what I really think right to their face, that we don't actually want to do it in real life. So it's the same way with sexual fantasies. And that's totally fine. It doesn't mean it's some secret desire that you have to do. It's fine to play with it. Just in your Head.

We gotta call that something like fantasy. Not gonna happen though.

Yeah, there should be words for it. Because I think that sometimes, I mean, I can just speak for myself. I would be scared to tell my partner the thing because then I would think that they would think that I would actually want to do the thing. And maybe in some situations there's things to try and in some situations there's things just to like think about and talk about and never try. But there should be words for each of those things. Because you would forgive people for being confused if it's confused.

No, I love that. I think we should come up with a new word for it. Something that I like to play with it in my head. Maybe I choose to share it with my partner. Maybe I just keep it to myself. But it's not something I want to. Yeah, it's a non actionable fantasy.

Like a fantasy and a fantasy never.

See, it's like the safety mechanism in place for fantasy thought. Because I do think that there's room obviously for the stuff that can happen in reality. And then the beauty of fantasy is that it's in a different world, it's in your mind and it can be happening while you're doing the sex and also is happening while you're not doing the sex. Cool.

A really common one for people is who are in monogamous relationships is a threesome. So the idea of it like, ooh, that does sound really hot and sexy. What would it be like to have this third person, but they know for themselves. Like, I wouldn't actually want to bring a third person into our bedroom. I think the reality of what that would look like would not feel fun to me. But boy, is it fun to play with in my head.

Interesting.

So then is that the fantasy? So maybe it's all fantasy or things you're curious about trying to. But the thing I'm curious in that scenario, the thing I'm curious to try is just like talking about that thing.

Yeah, exactly.

As opposed to doing that thing.

Exactly. So dirty talk is a great way to play around with fantasies that you don't actually want to do. So, you know, you could have a whole dirty talk scenario of imagining. Let's stick with the threesome example. Imagining what it would be like to have this other person here and you can get each other very hot and bothered. Like, you know, what would you think if you saw me kissing somebody else or touching somebody else? Oh God, you can have a lot of fun talking dirty about it. And talking dirty is also a great stepping stone. For fantasies that you might want to try out. So let's say you're thinking about the threesome and thinking, yeah, I might actually be open to it. I'm not totally sure, but it's not a hard no for me. Try talking dirty about it first and see how that feels. If you're feeling excited and it does feel like a turn on to you, then maybe you want to take another baby step, step towards exploring it. If you start talking about it and you're like, no, I don't want to imagine what it would look like for watching you touch somebody else, then that's a pretty good sign for you that you can just stop it there.

Are there questions that someone should ask to make sure there are safe boundaries for things like because I'm just imagining someone with a trauma history of being, you know, left or cheated on, feeling used or something like this. And then someone thinks they're doing something to deepen the relationship by being like, I want to talk about my fictional fantasy of a threesome. And that person feeling not only that doesn't bring them closer, but like locked down in fear, you know, like, how do you test the waters with that to make sure this is a deepening thing to get you closer instead of a thing that's going to alienate.

You? So talking about it outside of the bedroom first, and that's why I think a book like Sex Talks can be so beneficial, is because you're reading it, you know, outside of the bedroom. It's separate from sex. You can use it to open up these more objective conversations of like, hey, what do you think this would be like? We have lists in the book of like different fantasies and different things that you could play around with. So if you talk about it separately, I think people get themselves into trouble when they try to speak bring something on their partner in the moment. We've all heard the advice to try new things in the bedroom to keep it spicy. And sometimes we get so nervous and worked up about it that we try to initiate something in the moment and then our partner feels really caught off guard, like, whoa, whoa, where did that come from? And those are the kinds of situations where you have much more likelihood of triggering your partner or making them feel unsafe.

You said one of the most common is threesomes in monogamous couples. What are some other common fantasies and, and then. Or things people would want to try and then what are some unusual ones that you've heard?

So the most common ones are really interesting. So you hear the word fantasy and again A lot of us think really elaborate things, right? But some of the most common fantasies are actually things like romance, like having very romantic sex that feels very intimate and sweet and connected, or having sex that feels like very passionate, like really intense and kind of sweeps you away in the moment. So it's not always something like super specific like that. But the more specific ones do include, like, threesomes or group sex. A very common one for women is what I call like a ravishment fantasy, which is that your partner is like really in control in the moment, kind of dominating that type of thing. And just in general, power play types of dynamics. So whether it's like a full BDSM type of dynamic, like a dom and a sub kind of thing, or just somebody being kind of bossy in the bedroom, that's another really common one too.

Can you explain what BDSM is and dom and sub means?

Yeah. So BDSM is in the most simple way to say it is. It's a way to kind of play with power dynamics in the bedroom. So if you have like a dom and a sub, the dom is dominant in control. They're guiding the interaction and kind of leading things through. And the sub is submissive. They are sort of going along with it. But I do want to say one of the big misconceptions about it is that the dom is completely in control. In true, like, responsibly done power play dynamics like this, everything is negotiated beforehand. You're talking about boundaries, what's on, what's off the table. The sub actually has a lot of control around it, but it's a way of playing with power dynamics in the bedroom so you don't have to do anything that feels like, you know, very intense. But I think most people like to play around with power of like, you take the lead a little bit, you be in control. Now I'll be in control for a little bit.

I have a question about that. In your therapy, what is that doing for people? Is it people who usually have a lot of control outside of the bedroom that are craving to be submissive, unable to access that control in the bedroom, or is it the reverse? Like, what is the personality trait there?

So most often I do see that we tend to show up in the bedroom in the way that's different from the way that we are in real life? In real life, I put that in quotes. But in your day to day life, you're somebody who has a lot of power, a lot of control. You might enjoy being able to take a step back in the bedroom and having somebody else take the lead and guide things and tell you what to do. It's not always, always the case though. But that is the more common dynamic that I see.

That's interesting.

One of the suggestions that you offer in sex talks, which I thought was a great one, was if you're too scared to talk about what you're curious about trying, you can use the dream scheme, which is you just go to your partner. Like, I had this wild dream last night which is like we were having a threesome and it was so weird and like, whatever. What do you think? Okay.

So weird. Can you believe that? That's so weird. Unless you do think it's weird, in which case we can continue to talk about it.

Like how?

Let me know if you don't think it's weird.

Yeah, so that's so interesting. And then I was, you know, thinking about the idea of like using the sex talks books and being like, oh, you know, Vanessa made us talk about this thing. Uh huh. Which really speaks to a deeper question, which is why are we so ashamed of our desire? I'm never scared to say I really like Thai food or like, I really, I personally just prefer dogs to cats. But when it comes to sex, we have to have all our desire or fantasy. Is it because we're ashamed of it? Because, for example, you talked about the ravishing fantasy? I might, as a fierce feminist, be nervous to claim that desire because I wonder what it says about me. I don't wonder what my preference about Thai food says about me or what my preference about a certain animal or pet. But like, sexual fantasies seems to be so tied with identity, so we're scared of it. Talk about that. Like, where does this shit come from? Is this all Freudian? Like, why do some of us want threesomes and some of us want to be dominated and some of us want like feet and like, where is it coming from?

Okay, there are a bunch of really great questions that you asked in that. So I wanna back up a second and go to like, it's really more of a discomfort around desire in general. I think that's the bigger picture issue. And then one piece of that is our specific shame around our fantasies and our curiosities. So I think our shame around our desire really just traces back to all the negative shame and socialization that we get around sex. It just feels so hard for us to claim what we feel pleasure from and curiosity about and enjoyment from. I mean, I've had people tell me I feel ashamed for liking long French kisses. I feel ashamed for liking to be on top when we're having intercourse. You know, the most basic, simple things that you wouldn't think would evoke that kind of feeling. People feel ashamed about it, and people feel alone in it, too. I can't tell you how many times I get the question, like, am I the only person who likes when my partner nibbles on my earlobe? No, you're absolutely not. But I think it's the shame that we're taught about sex and the lack of open and honest conversations about sex that make us feel so alone and make us feel so ashamed of it. So then we have the more niche issue of our fantasies. And the thing that comes up here is that we have this desire to want to make sense or make meaning out of our fantasies. And sometimes you can. You might be able to trace back, you know, oh, I had one of my earliest sexual experiences. I was wearing leather pants. And now, you know, I have made this association with leather. It gets me turned on. It's so exciting. So for some people, there is a clear connection. For the vast majority of people, there isn't. Though there's no specific reason why you develop that interest instead of this other interest that you could have. And I think there's this danger that comes up when we try to psychoanalyze, like, well, what does it mean that I like this? Am I actually not the person that I thought that I was? Or am I being hypocritical in a certain way so it truly is random? So the way that, you know, Glennon, you made food comparisons. I wouldn't judge you and you wouldn't judge yourself for, like, what does it mean about me that I like Thai food? What kind of person does that say that I am? And I think the same needs to be true out of our curiosities and fantasies. It doesn't seem say anything about you if you're interested in feet. It doesn't say anything about you if you like playing with latex. It doesn't say anything about you if you like long French kisses.

Yeah, it's like a right to pleasure. A right to have pleasure.

Yes. Where does it come from?

It comes from inside of you. And it comes from, you know, when you're young and you want somebody to tickle your arm, and you're like, oh, my gosh, that feels so good. So every time you go to sleep, you ask your mom and your grandma, please tickle my arm to sleep. I want you to do that because you're. You're getting in touch what feels good to you. And as you get older, you keep investing and you keep learning about what feels good, what is pleasurable. And it doesn't matter the what. It just matters that there is.

But I do. That's a great point too, Abby. Like, I think, you know, as children, we're so in touch with what brings us pleasure and what brings us joy. And there's a simplicity to it of just, that feels good. I like that. That's fun. And as we become adults, we get so many messages about, that's not okay. Don't do that. Don't touch yourself there. No, I'm not going to give you those rubs anymore. You're too old for that. We get so many messages, and so we start to shut ourselves down and we internalize that belief that pleasure isn't okay and it's not acceptable. And, you know, we're not allowed to continue having that joy and that delight in our own bodies that we were all born with and all deserve to have.

And that whole concept, like, what you're just saying, Abby, makes so much sense to me. My daughter Alice is very sensory. And I rub her back before she goes to bed, and she'll be like, harder there. No, stop. Over there. I love that. That feels so good. If you, like, panned out and just read a transcript, it would be like, God damn, I wish I could do that.

Yeah.

But it's just the idea that there's a person that loves you who wants to do something for you that feels good. In some cases, we're totally welcoming to it when it's a little child and it's a mother's love scratching your back so that they can give you some joy. And sometimes I'm amazed because I'm like, you're just over there accepting this thing I'm offering you. And you're not only accepting it, you're giving me directions about how to do it better.

Absolutely.

And I'm not mad. I'm like, that's helpful information. And every time I'm like, keep that. Please keep that, for the love of God, your whole life, you know, And I don't know at one point if I ever had that, and then it left. But this idea that someone would be there and delighted to respond to my ability to communicate to them what was the thing that made me feel most cozy and joyful and pleasurable.

I would argue you taught Alice how to do that. Obviously, there's some natural instinct, like, but you helped her, and you are a part of that Whole situation. So you can actually do that for yourself in your marriage if you chose.

Yeah, I think we're all born with that. And if we have great parents, then we get encouraged in that way. The way that you're describing this is so beautiful. And so you're. You're encouraging her to continue having that. But, like, this is why I'm so passionate about this stuff, is that we all have this within ourselves. We all have that history of, like, feeling joy and pleasure and it being simple in our bodies so we can all get back to there. Just the amount of comparisons that we can make to the last time that we talked about feedback and being in the moment. Like, I know feedback can feel so scary in the moment. I don't want to say that. I don't know what to say. I don't want to shut down my partner. But, like, just look at the simplicity and the beauty of that example that Amanda is sharing. She's giving you feedback. And it's just. It's so in the moment. It's not in a. Maybe sometimes there's a little bit of a demanding to it, but, like, it's not a. You know, it's not in a rude way. It's not aggressive. It's not hurting your feelings. And you're receiving it in a beautiful way, too. Like, yeah, of course I want to know more about what feels good. Do you want me to scratch you a little bit more over here? Scratch you a little bit more over here? And it delights me to know that I'm making you feel good. And I know that I'm making you feel good because you're giving me that feedback. Like, imagine what all of our sex lives could look like if we could have that same sort of exchange.

Or imagine if she didn't like her back being scratched. And I found that out five years from now that I thought I was doing something lovely for her by scratching her back as she went to bed. And she's like, I haven't liked that for six years. How much of an asshole would I feel like then? And she's just placating me. And think about the parallels with relationships on that one.

Right?

Oh, yeah, right.

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Like it's easier to incur thousands of dollars of debt.

You know what? It's easier to get divorced every six years and start over than to fucking have this conversation so you can keep morphing your sex life with the same person. I like the idea of what is something that you might like to try, what's something you're curious about trying? And if you're going to ask that of Your partner, you must bring your own first. Because it's not fair to ask somebody else to be vulnerable if you're not bringing something. Would you agree with that?

Absolutely. So let's back up for a second and talk about, like, why is it important for us to try new things? Because we've all heard this advice. There's nothing new about it. And a lot of us kind of roll our eyes about it. Like, it feels like something you see in a cheesy women's magazine, like spicing it up in the bedroom. Right. But research actually has shown that when we do new things with our partners inside and outside of the bedroom, it lights our brains up. It's just so exciting to us. It's a new experience. Experience. It helps us see our partner in a new way. And regardless of how it actually ends up going, it feels like a bonding moment. Think about dates that you guys have gone on. You're not gonna feel excited about. Oh, yeah, there's that Italian restaurant that we go to, like, every Tuesday just around the corner. That's not gonna be the date that you remember. You're gonna remember, oh, that time that we went and threw axes. Or we went to that super weird murder mystery party that we hated. Like, we remember the novel and unique things.

I wanna do. Somebody invite me to a murder mystery party.

Do not need.

We can all. Can we have one later? I'll set it up.

Well, it's Glennon's fantasy. Way to ruin the surprise.

The murder mystery. So trying new things in the bedroom, it really is the best way to keep your sex life feeling interesting and exciting and feel like you're falling in love with each other, even though you've been together for years and years. But the problem is that a lot of us think about trying new things and we get really freaked out for a lot of the reasons that we've already talked about, like, making it feel too big. Like, oh, I have to go have a threesome. That's the only way to keep it spicy. Or we try to spring something on our partner in the moment, and we really catch them off guard. And then maybe they are judging us for the thing that we tried to do. So in this chapter of Sex Talks, I really try to dial it back and, like, let's talk about ways to ease into trying new things so that it doesn't feel like this scary, overwhelming, throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool type of experience.

For me, this is really ringing. Ringing really true, because it's like, oh, what's next? Are we going to be like, polyamorous? Do you know what I mean?

It feels like fantasy. Slippery slope. Yes, yes. But that's an important question to have. We have a friend who introduced polyamory, and her. Her partner wasn't so as scared of the polyamory as she was afraid that this is just the way that her partner was trying to tell her that eventually she's gonna want a divorce. So it's like, is that an important part of the conversation? Like, I'm not just saying this because it's. It's an easier way to say something else. It's like its own thing.

Absolutely. So I think one of the best starting points is, let's kind of reframe this, because a lot of us here try new things, and it feels like, ooh, the bar just keeps going higher and higher. If I try this one new thing, then I have to try something more. And it's like, you know, we have to do all this wildly kinky stuff. And there's nothing wrong with kink. It's wonderful. It's incredible. But it's not what everybody's interested in, and we don't have to keep pulling that bar up. So instead, a great starting point is, can you just bring back some of the things that you used to do with each other that you haven't done in a while?

Yeah.

Upcycle.

We're going to start up cycling a lot of things that we used to do and that we used to love. I promise you, everybody listening to this can think of at least one example of, oh, yeah, we used to do that all the time. Why haven't we done that in a while? So it's not just doing new things. It's doing different things.

Yeah. Or old things.

Or old things.

And you say that. I like the idea of there's lists in the book, but you can make these up yourself, too. Of, like, yeses, nos, and maybes. That's good. So you could have a conversation. There's a list in here. I cannot read them. What is this?

Come on, read a couple.

Read a couple.

Just read a couple.

It's not your thoughts.

I like this part where you can say you're curious about a thing, but there's different levels of that thing that you could do. For example, say you're interested. I have a question after this list. Okay. Say you're interested in sex clubs. The first one could be, you're just open to talking about sex clubs, or you're just open to watching erotica about sex clubs.

What's A sex club.

That was my question. What the hell is a sex club, Vanessa?

The first role of sex club is.

We don't talk about sex club.

I spent a couple of years living in Berlin, so I thought you were going to say it's got very sex club. A sex club is a place that you go to to have sex. So there are people who don't know each other, they're having sex. Or it could just be a sex club party. In most major cities, you can find networks of sex parties where maybe it's not a club specifically, but it's held at somebody's house. But it's basically a group experience of having sex. There are multiple groups of people having sex in the same space.

It's like a big orgy or different orgies or people are just finding, like, singular partners to have sex with or. All of the above.

All of the above.

And you went to these places?

I, you know, I was living in Berlin. I had to explore something.

Hey, when in Berlin. You know what I mean? That's what I always say.

Oh, my God. That is so fascinating. Okay, so talk to us about the yes, no, maybe list.

Yeah. When it comes to trying things in the bedroom, sometimes we just freeze up and we don't feel very creative, and we think, like, I don't even know what is a new thing to try. Then we judge ourselves and feel ashamed. So it's like.

It's like when you're wanting to watch tv and you're like, I want to watch tv, and now I can't think of a single show.

Exactly. So instead, we present you a menu of options. It's not a complete menu, but it's pretty extensive. It's a lot easier to choose items from a menu than to just come up with something out of nowhere. So we have these lists in the book where you can look at. Okay, here's one option for something. So here's a random example, like masturbating together, side by side, you're both masturbating, and it gives you the opportunity to think of. All right, is this something that I'm interested in? So the obvious categories are. Yes. Yeah, that turns me on. That sounds sexy. Maybe I have done that before, but haven't done it in a while or. No, it doesn't feel interesting to me. For certain things, there might be things that don't feel safe to you, and then the interesting category is maybe. So I love including that because I think there's so much gray area when it comes to sex, and it's important for us to think about. Like, yeah, what is something that I might be open to? So the maybes might come up for you. If it's like, it depends on the partner. Like, I wouldn't want to do this with somebody I just started dating, but maybe if it was a trusting, long term relationship, that would feel good. Maybe it's the circumstance. Maybe it's, ooh, you know, if I had a partner who was really into it, I would do it, but I wouldn't do it just for myself. Or maybe it's like, there's a piece of this that could be intriguing to me, but maybe not this piece of it. So it just gives us this opportunity to turn it around, to examine it a little bit and to figure out what are those gray areas for us.

And then you can make a jar, like the conversation jars, and you could just pull one out when you got some extra time.

Yeah. You and your partner fill out these lists separately, and then you get together to compare. What are the overlapping yeses and the overlapping maybes.

Hold on, hold on. When you get some extra time.

I don't know.

What do you. What do you mean?

When you get some extra time or.

Like to have sex with to begin with?

When you get some extra time and some extra energy and you're like, let's try something from our sex fantasy jar.

Got it.

Right?

Got it.

People on TV shows, people seem to be very into role playing. That's a big thing, right? People, like, meet out at a bar. My entire experience of this is from Modern Family. You meet out at a bar and you pretend you're somebody else. Do you think that it's possible that we're scared of. Of conversations about fantasies with our partners because we're afraid we are not enough for our partner? Because Vanessa, Abby and I did a list in here, and it was like, what of these things do you find sexy? Do you remember this? Okay, you know, it's fine. We worked it out. But one of the. It was like, do you think this is sexy? Do you think this is sexy? And then one of them was like, do you think being athletic is sexy? And I said, yes, and she said yes. And I was like. Because I felt like, oh, but I can't be that thing. I can do a lot of things, Vanessa. I can do a lot of hard things. I cannot suddenly become athletic, you know, and that's not a big deal. That is not the point. The point is, is it scary for us because we're afraid things are going to come up that we feel inadequate to meet.

I do think that comes up for a lot of us. And I think what's so important for us to recognize is that the vast majority of people don't have an incredibly narrow, super specific version of what they think is sexy. A lot of us say, I find all of these things sexy. So it might be I find athletic people sexy, but I also find these types of body types sexy. And I also find somebody's personality and their energy and I don't really care what kind of container their spirit is held in. I find them sexy too. So just because your partner says they're curious about a certain thing or they think that something is attractive or sexy, that doesn't mean that everything else that is not that thing is not sexy.

That's right.

It's a much wider experience. So that can come up. Sometimes with role play, people think, oh well, do you want me to role play this character? Because you don't think, think who I am is sexy, so I've got to play the naughty school girl or the nurse or whatever it is. And that's just not true. We all find lots of different things sexy and it's fun to play around in that space with each other.

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Do we get closer to each other when we try new things in bed or out in the world? And do we remember those things? And do we have a better time at those times? Because the thing is better and new. Or is it just being vulnerable with someone else at the same time? Is that it? Because it's like we don't want to have these conversations or try these things because it's too, too awkward and too vulnerable and we're exposing parts of ourselves and that's why we don't do it. But is it the sex act that brings us closer or is it actually just entering into this scary, vulnerable, revelatory place with each other? As if like when we go on a hike to a place we've never been and we're both like, what the fuck? What do we do next? And we're scared with each other and it's new with each other and we're revealing different parts of ourselves. Is it about the sex at all? Or is it about new territory together and being vulnerable?

It's about that. It's about the new territory and the being vulnerable. Vulnerability is what makes us feel close to each other. It's what makes us fall in love with each other. It's what makes us attracted to each other. And that's something that we forget in long term relationships. We've normalized it at the beginning of a relationship. We know I'm gonna feel super vulnerable with this new person. I'm letting them in, I'm letting them see me. Maybe they won't like what they see, but that's how we fall in love. Vulnerability. And then all of a sudden we get into these long term relationships and we're become deathly afraid of that vulnerability and we forget. Like that's what makes the closeness so you can have with your sex life. Like we could script out for you, okay, here's the perfect sexual interaction that the two of you could have of the things that are safe and you've always done and they've worked in the past. And that's going to get really boring and really tiring very quickly. It's the act of being willing to put ourselves in those vulnerable spaces with each other that creates that real intimacy. And especially with trying new things. Like some of my favorite experiences with Xander. Sure, we've had incredible sex and those times come to mind, but there have been also tons of times that come to mind of like we tried this weird sex tip that we saw on TikTok and it went horribly wrong. And we laughed like so hard with each other, you know, that it was just this incredible bonding moment. So it's not about having perfect sex. It's about having vulnerable sex.

I think that's so good that's so hopeful because pod squatters, like, listen, this is what I'm thinking. I'm like, I can't do these things. Like, I'm gonna feel so awkward. It's gonna be so weird and uncomfortable. And that will be proof it. It didn't work. But what Vanessa is saying is that when it is weird and awkward and you're embarrassed with your partner, that is proof that it is working, because you are both outside of your comfort zone together, and you're catching each other, even if you're just catching each other in a laugh instead of an orgasm.

Yes.

And it's also, when you've been with someone for a decade, you can have this kind of resigned chip on your shoulder. That's really awful when you think about it. But I think so many of us walk around with it, which kind of like, I know everything there is to know about you. We have read that book 16 times. We know what we're dealing with here, and it's just like an avenue for the truth that that's not the case. We're just reading the same pages. But there is, like, a whole. Both we ourselves and this other person is this living thing. And we don't think of our partners as living, evolving things. We don't think of ourselves as that. And so it's just a way. Way to add life. Right. Because when you're doing the same shit every day and you think you know everything there is to know about someone, you're already setting the ceiling of what things will be. But when you believe that there's still life there to figure out, then you're engaging in life together and surprising yourself and each other, which is not common when you've been together for years and years and years. One thing that you're not full of is surprises.

True.

Absolutely. So we did a whole podcast episode where we made ourselves the guinea pigs, and we tried out all the weirdest TikTok sex tips that we've seen floating around. And so one example was it was to lick your partner's armpit. And so I licked Xander's armpit. It felt very strange. It felt very awkward, and he liked it. And it was like this moment of delight for me of, like, I never knew this before. I didn't know that you liked having your armpit licked. It brings me back to that conversation about, like, childlike delight and wonder in our own bodies. Like, wow, I discovered a new part of you. I've been with you for 15 years, and I've never licked your armpit.

You know, thank God for TikTok. You never would have.

But like, again, we tried a lot of things that were hard, horrible.

Like what? Tell us some more things. I can't handle this.

There was a, a fruit roll up blowjob. I could not get the fruit roll up to stick. It was like choking me. It was all over the place. It made a mess. But again, it's like we laughed so hard, could not get it to adhere. It was falling all over the place. It was terrible. But like, we laughed so hard about that. And like, you know, it just was such an incredibly like funny and bonding experience that I'm never going to forget. And that was not perfect sex. Like, I didn't do a good job at giving him a blowjob. You know, I, I could look at it in a, in a different way, but it's like we both chose to show up to be vulnerable, to giggle with each other, to just like have an experience with each other. And I'll remember that so much more than, you know, some perfect sex that we had a different time.

Vanessa, it's a story you'll be passing down for generations.

The fruit roll job. I know.

Okay, we're gonna stop there because we could go on forever, but we're just gonna challenge the pod squad to be vulnerable. Be vulnerable in one way or another. Find something out about your people that you didn't know before.

It makes so much sense to me. It is hard to maintain an open hearted sense of vulnerability all the time. So like, if you have gotten into a little bit of a rut of or narrowed sex space, this is like going into the bedroom is an opportunity to, to open up and be that vulnerable self that you once fell in love with, even yourself. I miss that part of myself from like the early days of our marriage, you know, like not just the desire and the drive, but I miss like kind of how I was like confidently walking around like, like my didn't stink, you know, like I was awesome.

Then we learned it did and then, you know, it's all downhill from there.

And now we've done a lot of.

Winking ever since we have a fart wing.

Also, if you are very scared of these conversations, theoretically, I heard this from a friend that you could send a link to like an article or you could write up in a text some of the things that are from sex talks. And then you could send and say like, hey, let me know something on this list that seems interesting to you because it's, it's just you're sending a few. You're like, that's it. You can tell me tonight one of these things that might seem interesting to you, and it's very less like sitting down, eye to eye, being like, I want to know your stance on armpits.

Exactly. Yeah. Similar to the dream scheme, you know. Yeah. It's just finding different ways of bringing it up with our partner so we don't have to feel so ashamed and embarrassed about it. But I just think there's so much potential for us to tap back into our own vulnerability, our curiosity, that sense of like, yeah, I don't know everything about my own body and my own interests and I don't know everything about my partner and their body and their curiosities and like this beautiful place of us being able to explore together and being vulnerable together and bonding over it. Regardless of how the experiments turn out.

So good.

The more awkward, the better, the longer you'll remember it.

Thank you, Vanessa. Let's start with the things that feel easy. It's all about the baby steps. Bring back the things that you used to do that you don't do anymore. Start there and that'll give you the confidence and the motivation to then go.

To a sex club.

Try some other things. Yes, go to a sex club.

Buy my ticket to Berlin.

When all else fails, if the competition doesn't go well, just go to Berlin.

Packing my Fruit Roll ups and heading to Berlin.

And stop by Miami on the way back.

Exactly. Thank you, Vanessa. Thank you, POD Squad, for hanging in there. Once again, we did hard things. We'll see you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

Us.

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