Bedroom Conversations: Why Great Sex Starts With Great Communication with Vanessa & Xander Marin

Hello and welcome to reimagining love. I'm Dr. Alexandra Solomon. I have been studying relationships for over 20 years as a couples therapist, a professor, an award winning author, and as a wife, mother, daughter, sister and friend. Now I'm inviting you into this space each week as I dig into some of the toughest and most fascinating relational dilemmas of our time. If you want to discover how to create vibrant and loving relationships in your own life, you have come to the right place. This is Reimagining Love.

Hi there. I cannot wait for you to hear my conversation today with Vanessa and Xander Marin. This also happens to be our last podcast episode of 2024. We're going to be taking a break for the holidays and we will return with new episodes on January 7th. We are in fact kicking off the new year with two new installments of the Family of Origin Roles series series. If you're going to be missing us while we're away, do not fret. We've linked several guest episodes from the Reimagining Love catalog in the show notes.

So be sure to save those for.

Your holiday listening or just go ahead and explore the feed on your own. There are lots of great conversations about parenting, about breakups, sex, family dynamics, lots of other topics, so there's something for everyone. And in fact, if you visit the podcast page on my website, you can even sort episodes by topic and find the perfect one for you. I am wishing you warmth and peace as you gather with family and friends and celebrate the season and I look forward to being with you again in the new year. Okay, let's get right into today's episode. Vanessa and Xander Marin are joining me on the show today for a frank and compassionate conversation about sex. Specifically sex in long term relationships. It is so normal for couples to fall into a rut in the bedroom ranging from sex feeling kind of meh to long periods without any intimacy at all. And I am here to tell you that these ebbs and flows are part of being in a long term relationship or a marriage. And the good news is that there are actions that you can take to chart a new course with your partner and to get excited about each other again. And my guests today, Vanessa and Zander, are a couple who have been creating that very roadmap for folks through their amazing online courses, their podcast pillow talks and their New York Times bestselling book, Sex the five conversations that will transform your love life. Vanessa is a sex therapist with 20 years of experience who's been featured in outlets like oh, the Oprah Magazine Harper's Bazaar, Vogue and. And Goop. And she has written for the New York Times, Allure and Lifehacker. And Xander, well, he is a quote unquote, regular dude who left his corporate job to join Vanessa in this work. And together, they blend clinical wisdom, humor, openness, and their own personal stories to normalize talking about our sex lives and to offer techniques for improving yours. I had so much fun chatting with Vanessa and Zander about their work and about their relationship. You're going to hear about their personal experience with couple therapy and how they landed on the agreement. If it matters to one of us, it matters to both of us, which I love, by the way. And they share so many juicy insights about sex, from desire discrepancy to initiation to their amazing acronym, please. Which you're going to learn about in this conversation. I hope this episode gives you the confidence that you need to shift the way that you and your partner talk about sex and couple therapy and anything else that you may be feeling stuck on these days. Enjoy.

Vanessa and Xander, thank you so much for being here with me today. I feel like we've been circling each other's worlds for a long time, and now here we are, finally sitting down together.

Yeah. I'm so thrilled to be here. I've been following your work for such a long time. I'm such a fan. So it's great to be able to finally get to meet and to speak with you today.

Yeah. Thank you for having us.

Oh, yeah. Well, the feeling is totally mutual. I have so much respect for the work that both of you do, the authenticity, the practicality. It's really. You're both wonderful, wonderful voices in this space. And I have a ton to ask you about, about your book and your courses and everything that you have created and are creating. But. But I want to start by asking you the question that I ask all of our guests, which is the relational self awareness question. Are you ready for that?

Ready.

Okay. So, Vanessa and Xander, I would love to know how each of you is reimagining love in one of your important relationships these days.

One of the things that I am working on right now is assuming goodwill and actually trying to be a little bit less careful. And I know that's gonna sound strange, but one of the patterns that Xander and I have gotten into is we're both really big fans of communicating well. We work on our communication skills so much, and being great communicators is so important to us. But I noticed recently that we've gotten into a bit of a pattern with wanting to be so careful with our language and our delivery. And we know, you know, the language is important. How we say things is important. The delivery is important. But we had gotten in this pattern. Oh, well, rephrase that and make sure you're putting that in I language. And can you say that phrase again and try to bring your tone down a little bit? And it was such an interesting realization for me, because I was trying to juggle. Yes, this is very important. And at the same time, I know who Xander is. I know his heart, I know his intentions, and I know that he's never trying to blame something on me or trying to give me a snippy tone. And I realized I want to have a little bit more generosity in our delivery rather than being the tone police with each other. So that's what I'm reimagining right now, is creating a little bit more space for us not to have the exact perfect language and delivery.

Well, I love that because. I love that because I'm an external processor and Vanessa is an internal processor. And so, you know, we've gotten into challenges in the past where, you know, I'm in the middle of trying to process something and kind of almost like sound it out, literally. And then, you know, it sounds very different to you, and you're assuming that something said, you know, is for sure meant, like, it's well thought through. And it's often very. Not for me.

Right. Because that's one of the differences between the two of you, is that Vanessa processes internally, so that then by the time you've brought whatever your concern is to Zander, you have it relatively well packaged, where Zander, you're describing yourself as an external processor. So oftentimes what Vanessa is hearing is you figuring out in real time how you. Your. Your take, your perspective, your experience.

Yeah. And that's been one of the biggest challenges for us in our relationship, because for me, I would process it internally, and I wouldn't say something until I know what I feel and what I mean. And so when I say it out loud, that's the real truth for me. And so early in our relationship, Xander would say something out loud and then say, oh, no, actually, it's not this. It's more like this. But I would want to jump on him and think, you know, but you said the first thing. Why would you say the first thing if that's not actually what you meant? You must mean that. So it took me a long time to realize, no, that's just a part of his process. And I'm doing the same thing. It's just in my head, neither way is right or wrong better or worse. They're just different. And realizing that has been really important for us.

Well, and, Vanessa, I want to go back to what you're saying about, like, your. What you're reimagining right now, this idea of goodwill with Xander and how it is, like, I. As you say it, like, I'm, like, flashing on all these different kinds of experiences as a couple therapists that I have where early in the work, I'm helping people develop a set of communication skills and strategies. And that is essential. It's essential. Right. There's no. You can't create, like, the tools create the emotional safety, but what you're realizing is there's, like, this iteration that you get to where you have the tools, you have the skills, you know what's going to work well. But then there's also a space for grace, for flexibility, and for, as you called it, like, goodwill. Kind of giving Xander the benefit of the doubt that, yes, he knows the skills. You know, he knows the skills. And if in this moment right here, right now, he hasn't kind of optimized the skills, you can dip into that bank of memories you have where you know that he knows how to communicate with you. Well, even if, in this moment, he's not demonstrating, like, top shelf A. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that that point that you bring up is a really important one. We built up that bank with each other, trying to learn the skills, practice the skills, be really specific about our language and our delivery. That built up that goodwill between the two of us. And so our goal is still to be good communicators and to keep refining and improving. But also now we're at this space of we can make a little bit of more space for not being perfect at it.

Yeah, yeah.

Cause it's. It's almost like we got a little too good with the tools and too comfortable. And, you know, it's like, you know, like, you know, a lawyer who not only knows a lot, but then knows all the loopholes and how to, you know, oh, well, we could just go a little harder.

The loopholes. Yeah, for sure. We were getting into some loophole territory.

Right. And then it gets very confusing. Cause you start having side conversations that are about tone. Right. So then you are. You're at these, like, kind of meta levels, and you're losing the thread, and you're moving away from the feelings that are underneath all of it.

Exactly. And we're drawing out conversations. They're going on so long, and they can really just start to cycle around and around and around because we're trying to get so perfect about it. So just getting a little bit more to the point.

Oh, I like that. Okay. For you, Vanessa, it's that feeling of, like, goodwill and Xander, it sounded like that was. You liked hearing that. You loved hearing this.

I do.

How about for you? What's. What's going on for you these days, Andrew? Like, how are you reimagining love?

So I was going to say something different, but then as Vanessa was talking, it got me thinking. I'm actually. I'm really in the process of reimagining almost like love and my relationship with myself because I've been. I've been on a big health journey over the last year or so, especially in the last year. I'm in the process of, like, upper palate expansion. And so, like, literally, what I see in the mirror has changed over the last six months. The way I. I breathe and the way that I sleep is different. And then I'm also on a journey with some. Some other aspects of my health where, you know, there's definitely been some ups and downs, but some important realizations in terms of just, like, needing to take certain approaches to, you know, feel as best as I can, you know, at the age that I am and the activity level that I want to be. And so, yeah, I've just been kind of reimagining what it means to be me and how to take care of.

Myself and to be in this body. To be in your. In your body. I was thinking the other day, you tell me what you think, Sandra. I think that in CIS hetero couples, I think it is so easy for women because women are given so many messages about body and body image that I think it's easy for us as women to miss sometimes. How the men in our lives have their own set of challenges with their bodies and insecurities and, you know, places of that need to be healed and accepted. And I think that it's. I just have had a few experiences lately where I have noticed women talking to men or talking about men and their bodies in ways that I think, ooh, that's a double standard. Like, it wouldn't go, you know, if I heard a man talking to a woman about her body in that way or talking about her body in that way, I'd have a very harsh reaction. And I think that women sometimes can miss some of the tenderness or vulnerability around men in their bodies. What do you think?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, men definitely struggle with their bodies. I think, you know, we have our. We're kind of on our own journey. We, you know, I don't. I don't relate with many of the things that, you know, Vanessa tells me about and sort of like her relationship with her body. But there, there are plenty of. Of other areas, I think that we, you know, we all, we all struggle with that a bit. I think that, you know, men often don't have the language to really fully express what, you know, what that is like for them. So we don't have a lot of examples of hearing about that regularly from men. But just because we don't hear about it or just because we don't talk about it doesn't mean we don't feel it.

The two of you opened up recently. I think I saw it maybe on social media about your experience in couple therapy, that this is probably not your first time in couple therapy in your relationship, but this is a new. Yeah. And Todd and I have been in and out of couple therapy at different points in our 26 plus years of our marriage. And I really was struck by the two of you talking about your experiences so far. And I wondered if you would talk a bit here about what it's been like to be in couple therapy and what it's been like to be in couple therapy as public facing figures who are talking about the experience.

Yeah. Well, I'll start with sharing the reason why we ended up going back to couples therapy this time around. So we obviously, you know, we have a big public account, and there's one thing that we have not really shared with our community before, which is that Zander is sober and has been sober for several years now. And we were debating whether that was something that we wanted to share publicly with our community and really coming to the realization that it was something that we did want to share. So we decided, let's go to therapy to talk about what this experience might be like. Like, what is it going to be like to have this information out there, to be able to have all kinds of reactions from our community, all different kinds of reaction. A lot of energy coming at us. What struck me from this time around of going back to therapy is I was so resistant as a therapist myself. I've been in and out of therap, you know, so much of my life. I believe so deeply in the importance of therapy, but I did not want to go. And it was such an interesting experience for me. One thing that was coming up was this Feeling of, you know, what we want to work on. It felt so straightforward in my head, and I had this feeling of, like, we could do this ourselves. We don't need another person, and we don't need the time and the money and the energy. It was just all these different, you know, pieces of it came up. I just. Yeah, it really surprised me by how resistant I felt and how much of a. A judgment came up for me. I kept thinking, like, oh, we don't need this. It's not bad. And I had to keep catching myself a different part of myself, had to keep catching that little voice in the back of my head thinking, well, that's not why you go to therapy, though. You don't go to therapy because things are bad or because you can't figure it out on your own. You can't do it on your own. But it really was interesting to work through that. And fortunately, Xander was a really great partner in giving me the space to be resistant, but also being really grounded in his desire to go.

Yeah, yeah, I was. Yeah. I mean, personally, I just. I was really ready to be able to share that detail of my life, you know? Like, it's not something I don't go into detail about my story. I don't talk about it that often publicly. But, you know, one of the interesting things about, you know, kind of like, being in recovery from addiction and in sobriety is like, you know, getting rid of all the secrets that you have been keeping, and you realize, oh, my God, it is so freeing to actually not have all these things that I need to hold in and hold to myself, you know, and one of the interesting things about that is that, you know, it's like, as the years go by, you know, I. I started to realize, huh, this kind of feels like one of the last things that. It's not that it was a secret. It's not a secret to. To everyone. You know, I know personally in my life, but it was just like, you know, this weird conflict of, like, okay, it's been a while now. It's been a while. And obviously, at the beginning, this felt like, not something that you want to share publicly initially, when it's still new and feeling fragile and. But at a certain point, you're like, wait, it's been years and years. And, like, why am I needing to censor myself in this way? And so it felt really good to be able to do that finally. And, yeah, it took me getting up some courage to be like, hey, I really want to talk about this. And I would Love for us to go into therapy and make a plan for how we can do it.

Oh, I'm really glad that we're talking about this. And, Sandra, I wonder if you can talk about what helped you be patient, but also clear in the face of Vanessa's resistance. Cause I think that happens so commonly, doesn't it? One person is more ready, sees, you know, and the other person may have, you know, you, Vanessa, you named kind of the forms that your resistance was taking. But resistance takes all kinds of forms for very good reasons. You know, resistance is. It's self protective and. But how did you. Xander, what did you find helpful in terms of being patient with Vanessa, but also clear and kind of holding. Holding her feet to the fire a little bit on it.

It was fairly easy to be patient because the reality of kind of, like, this whole story between us is, like, is that Vanessa is wrapped up in a way in my sobriety story. Like, we've been together, married for a very long time. And so it's not just my story to tell. Like, you know, Vanessa has been impacted by things that have happened in the past. And so, you know, it's not fair for me to be like, hey, this. This is my thing and my thing alone. And I want to be able to talk about it whenever I want. Like, it's something that is shared between us. And so I absolutely had space for the fact that, yeah, this is something that I want to do, I feel ready to do. If it was totally up to me, if it was 100% my story and my story alone, I would have already shared about it. But it's not. It's not. And so, you know, I had a lot of space, you know, for Vanessa feeling resistant or unsure or, you know, what it was. And like I said, you know, I felt really. I felt really ready. And so it was just sort of a matter of sharing with her what that was like. Like, hey, I'm really feeling ready. Here's why I'm feeling ready. Here's what it feels like when I find myself kind of, like, needing to, like, jump over this detail or. Or give a. Give a kind of, you know, a response to a question where I'm like, that doesn't feel entirely authentic to me. And so, you know, I think it was that combination of just holding space for her involvement in the whole thing, but also saying, hey, you know, I'm noticing that this is eating away at me a little bit.

Yeah. And what it felt like. What it felt like for me or what I heard was, anytime I would bring up my resistance. He wouldn't argue with it. He validated it. You know, he wasn't trying to convince me not to be resistant. He would just say very calmly, I get it. That makes sense to me. I understand. And I want to go for these reasons, you know, so even just some. Just something as simple as that, I think that's one of the things that couples get so wrong. We really want to convince our partner to feel and think different things than they actually do. But Xander made the space for like, yeah, I get it. That makes sense to me. And I still wanna go and on.

That one, you guys got to separate the two things. Cause the two things were, are we going to disclose Zander's sobriety? And are we going to go to couple therapy? Cause there was, you know, there were two parts of it, so you had to. And then by. I imagine that at some point it just was like, you agreed enough, Vanessa, that, okay, let's at least go to couple therapy and see where it takes us. So you didn't have to have you let go enough of the resistance to couple therapy that you got in the door. But then you, you got to bring in with you the concerns about disclose, disclose. And then that became where you started your couple couple therapy work.

Yeah. And as is the case, anytime you go to therapy, more things unravel from there.

Oh, yeah.

You're like, oh, sexually. And then I, I started getting really into it. You know, there was. There's definitely times where something would come up and surprise me. Like, whoa, I did not think we were going there. I thought, I thought we were having a very practical discussion about a business decision, should we or shouldn't. But I actually, I really started enjoying it again and remembering, ah, yes, therapy is wonderful. It is very beneficial.

Yeah. And ultimately we also got to talk about just kind of what we were referencing at the beginning of this, about sort of getting into these, like, meta conversations and kind of derailing ourselves. So that was. That was a good thing to be able to talk about with someone else.

Yes, for sure. The two of you in sharing this are a living example of, you know, what I always call, like, dose based therapy. Like that you. That therapy is a tool that you can bring in and let go of, like, throughout the course of your life as an individual and throughout the course of your relationship. Because the therapy that the two of you did earlier on in the relationship is different than what you're doing now and that it can. Right. So that, Vanessa, your experience of like, oh, this is helpful. Like, I know this is a good tool for us. Something that you didn't. It didn't feel like that going in the door, but once you were in and having these conversations differently, by having somebody in there with you, you really started to feel like the value of why. Even though. Right. Even though the two of you know so much, you've written the book, you've done the courses like you are, and having somebody in it with you is just so helpful.

Absolutely. It really is such an incredible gift to give to your relationship, just having that other person there, able to walk alongside you, able bring things to your attention. I mean, there were so many moments where our therapist would bring something to our attention and both of us would think, oh, my God, I didn't. I didn't notice that. I didn't realize that it was really, really valuable. And just even having that container of, like, this is this one hour a week that no matter what else is going on, life is busy, things are always chaotic. But, like, this is our time that we're pouring into ourselves and each other and our relationships.

And I would say the vast majority of the sessions, we. We came out of, you know, feeling much closer. Like, it feels is a. You know, I think when you go proactively to couples therapy, when you're like, huh, there's this thing coming up that isn't a huge deal right now, but I could see that if this goes on for a couple years, maybe it would be a big deal. Like, that's such a great time to go because, yeah, it's a generally feel good thing. Like, you're talking about stuff. You're, you know, you're kind of, like, nipping things in the bud. And, you know, I think often, like, I would walk out with a lot more understanding for and love for Vanessa. And obviously there were a couple sessions that were challenging and, you know, just. Just being real. But, you know, but I think it's, you know, the. The vast majority, you come out of that and, you know, almost in a funny way, it. Almost you have that feeling of satisfaction of, like, having been on a really great date.

Yeah, there was, like, a lot of laughter in our sessions and a lot of joy and connecting. Yeah, it's so much more fun when you go when something's a small little issue versus when you go and you're, you know, thinking, we're. We're about to break up. We've never had that experience, but I know being on the other end of. Of the room when I would see couples, you know, when they'd come in saying, somebody's already thrown out the word divorce or breakup. It's so much more intense and challenging to work through than when you go when it's just that a little bud of an issue.

That's right. That's right. Okay, so the takeaways we want listeners to really be landing are, you can bring your hesitation with you. Right. Vanessa, you were not super psyched at session number one, so your hesitation can come with you into the first session.

And also, I even told my therapist that I didn't really want to be there. And it was great. We ended up having a really great exploration of that. So definitely, like, bring. Bring your resistance to your therapist.

Yeah. They can help you. They're well situated to talk to you about that.

That's right. And then, Xander, your point about how. Yeah. Like, the symbolic value of it. Like, the symbolic value of holding this, holding this time, and what that says, like, it's the two of you saying to each other, we matter. We matter so much, in fact, that we hold this time. And then another piece I heard you both speaking to is right. Going. When something feels like it's like the pebble in your shoe, you know, where it just is. It's at the beginning stages of being a problem. And you can bring something specific, knowing that even if you go with something specific, like, Todd and I one time started couple therapy with something specific that was about. We had adopted this puppy, and our daughter loved the puppy as much as our son couldn't stand the puppy. And we were like, it was the first time we had had this moment where the thing that one kid needed was the exact opposite thing that the other kid needed. And we were like, okay, we're tagging in a therapy. We have no idea what to do. So, similar to yours, right? Disclose, not disclose. And so you can bring in just that question, knowing that it will probably be a gateway to issues that are bigger and deeper. But to go, really to go when your partner asks you to go, to go to. You know, to not wait until, as you said, the D word has been thrown around or you feel like you're so disconnected. Because it is. It is like when you think about Gottman's research, that so much of what he has found boils down to when one person is troubled by something, it needs to be a problem for both partners.

Right.

That emotional attunement. Okay, I don't want to do it, but if it matters to you, that means, by definition, it has to matter to both of us.

Yeah, that's a rule that we have in our marriage is if it matters to one of us, then it matters to both of us.

Yeah, it's a good rule. It's a good rule. Anything else that you'd want to just whisper in the ear of a listener who's thinking about couple therapy, not sure what else would you want them to keep in mind or hold on to?

I mean, I. I think I. I would just say, I mean, to anyone, but especially to the men out there, that going to therapy is not. It's not like a slap on the wrist. It doesn't need to be something that's embarrassing or shameful. And I think that so many men think that, you know, we are supposed to solve our own problems. You know, that's kind of what we are shown societally as, like, this is what a good man does. And so I think it's so easy to fall into the trap of thinking we got to this out on our own. And if we can't, then that's a sign that, you know, maybe it's not the right relationship or whatever. But, you know, what else in your life can you do with, like, zero. Zero help? Like, barely anybody is successful with zero help or zero assistance in any area. And so it's just one of those things that can provide so much. So much value to you.

Yeah, I guess I'd piggyback off of that and say therapy can be a lot more straightforward than I think most people imagine. I was just having lunch with a girlfriend last week, and we were talking about some issues in her marriage. And she said, my husband doesn't believe in therapy, which is a really common thing that we hear. And I think a lot of people, men in particular, we have this. Have this idea that therapy is like a magic trick or something, you know, like, well, I don't believe in magic. It's just all, you know, it's a.

Whole bunch of trickery or that it's super prescriptive, like. Like the therapist is going to be like, oh, well, here's everything that's wrong with you, and you have to do this. And I'm sure if you could find a therapist that might do that. But, like, that's what you see in movies, not most people.

But yeah, a lot of our sessions were just very straightforward, you know, just kind of talking through very practical things, pointing out very practical little adjustments that we could make. So, of course, therapy has the potential to go deeper and to be really meaningful. But there's no magic tricks. There's no trickery. Or wor. Witchcraft involved in it. There's not anything that you don't have to. You know, I don't believe in that.

Yes, that's a really, really good point. I think we've done a really nice job of destigmatizing individual therapy. I think there's still just more kind of shame and secrecy and conf. And frankly, like, to your point, confusion about what couple therapy is. It really does challenge the notions of, like, how marriage should be, how romantic relationships should be. And it challenges those, I think challenges them in the best, best, best of ways. But I think it is still, you know, unfamiliar to. To people. And it can feel right, like w or voodoo or trickery. So I. That. That's a really good point that you're making, that it's not really to be believed in or not believed in. It just is. It's a resource and a tool that is there for you. So you have this wonderful book, sex Talks. It is just so good. The five conversations that will transform your love life. I really. It was an instant New York Times bestseller for all the right reasons. Makes so much sense why it has done as well as it has done out there in the world. And I love that you talk about sexual perfectionism. Right up top, right? Because, like, the big question is, why is sex so hard to talk about sometimes, especially with the person we're having sex with? And you start right in by talking about all these ideas that we have internalized and sexual perfectionism. So can you talk a little bit about all these shoulds that are in our heads and how they get in our way?

So the book opens up with us in couples therapy a different time. The first time we wanted to talk about what was going on in our own sex life. You know, our story is something that is so common and unremarkable. Pretty much every couple has gone through some version of it of, you know, things were super hot and heavy at the beginning. We were so into each other. The chemistry was unreal. And. And then you get a couple years into the relationship, and now I can't remember the last time we had sex. And I'm not sure I really even miss it that much. And the sex that we are having is a little bit boring and a little bit predictable. And what was so interesting for me going through that experience was even though I've wanted to be a sex therapist my entire life, I started in the, you know, doing work in the field at like 18, but. But still, I was completely unprepared to talk about my Own sex life. I didn't know what to say, how to say it, when to say it. And we actually had a lot of disastrous experiences of saying all the wrong things at all the wrong times and causing even more issues in our own relationship. So, you know, people often ask me, well, why is sex so hard to talk about? And I think the, the real question is, why would we think it would be easy? We have no examples of it. The only that we see when it comes to sex are sex scenes on TV and in the movies and in porn where sex looks easy, it looks effortless, and there's never any communication involved. Like, if communication has to be involved, something's going wrong and somebody's complaining or criticizing. And so this is where this idea of sexual perfectionism comes from, is from these sex scenes that we've all seen played out a million times over where we start to internalize this idea that great sex is just supposed to happen naturally and all the pieces that go along with it. I'm supposed to be completely confident in my own body. I'm supposed to be able to initiate with zero embarrassment. I'm supposed to be super skillful and, you know, the best my partner has ever had. And it just leads to this really crippling sense of performance anxiety for so many of us where we struggle to be in the moment, actually enjoying the sex we're having because we're so, so concerned about what we think it should look like.

Yeah. And that, and that can either lead on the one hand to some amount of faking what's going on or embellishing, or on the flip side, like a paralysis and like an avoidance of intimacy altogether because it's like, oh, well, I don't feel comfortable with that because I could never operate at this level that I feel like I'm supposed to.

Right. So what's the point? So then the avoidance is right. It's hard to want something that. Where you feel like you're going to leave the experience feeling like you're a disappointment to yourself, to your partner, that you were embarrassing, that you were. You felt embarrassed. So. Yeah. So avoidance and faking are two ways that we cope with, like, the realities of how messy and frankly, silly sex ends up being. And it's not what we see. Right. It's not what we see in movies and what we've seen in porn. I really love. You know, you start also with talking about sexual self awareness and you're. And helping. Inviting readers to really explore like their own sexual journey and that there's so Many clues that are in our own own sexual history. So I want you to tell us about the acronym, please, that you have come up with.

So if you ask the average person, you know, do you want to be great in bed? They'll say, yeah. Or do you want to have a great sex life? Yes. But then if you ask them, okay, well, what does that mean to you? What does great sex mean to you? Most people will give you a total deer in the headlights look.

Yeah. Because most people are thinking about, oh, what is it? Objectively, what is it? You know, how does it measure up to what the examples that I've seen portray? Not, like, what would actually be good for me.

Yeah, yeah. And so I noticed as I started asking people that question, you know, what makes sex great to you? People were so baffled by it that they couldn't even come up with a starting point. And for me, one of my greatest pet peeves is really vague and generic advice. So even the advice to talk openly about sexual sex, that's nothing new. We didn't come up with that. Like, you've seen that a million times. It's at the end of every article that you're Googling late at night, like, how do I bring the spark back? It always says, talk to your partner. But, yeah, but. But again, it's like, but what do I say? And how do I say it? So it's a similar kind of vibe with sex. People wanted to know, what are the options? So, like, you're saying, you know, we do have so many clues in our past experiences, both positive and negative. So. So there may have been past things where you think, yeah, I loved that. I want more of that. I want repeats of that. Then there may be other clues of. Actually, that doesn't quite work for me. So we work backwards from that. What is something, you know, if I didn't like that, then what might that be? So really giving people a little bit more of a framework of specific things to look out for. So it can be things like the positions that you're in, the length of the sex lasts, or the length that different activities within the encounter last. The environment. Environment. Like, what do you like to be surrounded by? What do you like the experience to feel like, the specific activities that we're doing. You know, so many of us, especially CIS male female couples, we really default to intercourse being the main thing. And that was certainly one of the things that came up for me and Xander is sex had started off as this really big buffet of options and then had narrowed down so much to being pretty much just. Just a little bit of making out, a little bit of groping, and then straight on to intercourse. So, yeah, looking at these different variables can be a great way to pull apart past sexual experiences and start thinking, what is it that I'm really looking for? What makes sex worth having?

For me.

For me.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. So it's position and length and environment, activity, stimulation and energy. And I. I love that one, too. Right. Because sex can have. There can be different energies in different experiences. And so for people to reflect, like, what is the energy that. That, for me, like, it's the energy that invites my sexuality forward, that invites my desire forward. How am I feeling? How's my partner feeling?

And one of our greatest realizations in our own sex life is that the energy that we really enjoy is silliness. I think you actually said the word a few minutes ago, too. We really like to be playful and a little bit goofy during sex. And I think that's such a perfect example because the sex scenes that we see on tv, in the movies, sex is always very serious. And most of us feel like we have to, you know, be this, oh, I forgot how to be that seductive sex kitten or the Casanova type. And actually, what Xander and I discovered is the more we are silly and lighthearted and playful with each other, actually, the more connected we feel.

Yeah. And I think what I found also is that for me, the energy is so much more important than all the other things in that acronym. Like, I could really care less about the details of which positions we do or how long it is or even what activities we do. It's more about, like, I want there to be a certain energy and a certain vibe. Like, that's what. That's what I'm going to remember afterwards. And that's just for me, like, there's plenty of people where it's like, oh, no. Like, I love doing it in these two positions. Or, like, this specific activity really turns me on, is. And so it's just so interesting talking to other people about this, because everyone's going to have a different answer, which is, I think, just so important to realize. There is no objective of here's how to be good at sex. So many of us grow up, especially men, grow up thinking, I need to get really good at sex. I need to know how to, like, give a good experience. And, you know, we already talked about, you know, the challenges with faking or embellishing and how easy it is to have your past experiences colored by, you know, things that may not really have been that real, but all. Even if they were, they were. They were real for that person. They're not indicative of, like, what your current partner is. Is going to. Like. So it can take off so much pressure of, like, oh, I don't have to be good at sex. In fact, I can't be universally good at sex. What I can do is I have an opportunity to get really good at sex with the person that I'm with. And that's going to take communication and experience and experimentation.

Yeah.

Well, and with this acronym, you're giving couples an entry point to talking about, like, what are the different qualities? And it's not right. There's no better or worse. Xander's not a better or worse lover because he's particularly keyed into energy versus any of those other ones. So it really is. It's like a palette. And that's such an interesting and important thing for partners to learn about each other. Like, I had no idea that that was really what you were seeking in an experience with me was this kind of quality of connection that we have.

Yeah. When Xander and I were going through the book, we did all of the exercises. We, like, guinea pigged ourselves. And it was so interesting. Like, despite working together for years, despite being. We're coming up on 17 years together in just a couple of weeks now, like, we still had so many conversations for the first time in writing the book and so many moments of, oh, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that about you. So there's. There's always something new to discover about yourself and about your partner.

I love it. Monogamy does not have to be monotony. That boredom is also a cue that we have stopped seeking interesting questions or have stopped seeking different experiences. Yeah. I want to talk with you guys about the physical emotional conundrum because this is so common in my practice and in all the couples that I interface with. You write that there are two types of people in the world. People who need to be emotionally connected to have sex, and people who need to have sex to be emotionally connected. And in a cruel twist of fate, most relationships consist of one of each type. That is so, so real. And, Vanessa, you did something pretty bold in the book, which is that you took a stand. Sometimes as couple therapists, we feel like we need to, you know.

Oh, I know. You can empathize with me on this one. Yeah. It was really difficult for me to write.

So first, tell us about, you know, the sort of the physical emotional conundrum, and then how you ended up, you know, taking. Taking your stand.

So y. The conundrum really describes this feeling of standstill that so many of us get to. We experience this in our own relationship for sure, too, where, you know, the reality is everybody wants both things. Like, we both want to feel emotionally close to our partner. The vast majority of us want to have physical intimacy, but we often have this sense of which one we want to come first. And that can lead to this standoff where one partner says, well, I don't want to have sex with you unless we're feeling emotionally connected. The other one says, but the way that I feel emotionally connected to you is by having sex. So we found that in male female relationships, typically it was the woman who wanted to have emotional connection first. We. We polled our audience about this, that we're actually the reverse of that. I'm somebody who wants physical intimacy as a path to emotional intimacy, and Xander wants to feel emotionally connected before we have sex. Sex.

And I think, you know, a lot of it also comes down to socialization. Like you. Most women in this country are socialized like, you're not supposed to want sex or you're not. You're not supposed to say yes. You're supposed to make your partner work for it, or you're supposed to be coy, put the brakes on. And so, of course, if that's how you've been conditioned your whole life and that's how you've seen things play out like in. In movies, on tv, then of course it's going to be like, okay, well, the easiest way to embody that is, you know, to wait until there is some kind of emotional connection, because that would indicate, like, a more serious or more acceptable. I'm putting, you know, acceptable in quotes, like a more acceptable moment to be receptive to sex. Whereas, you know, for men, it's like, you know, you're supposed to be the pursuer. You're supposed to want it whenever, wherever.

And not feel or express emotions.

And not. Yeah, not feel or express your own emotions. And so, you know, I. The funny thing for men is it often is sports and sex are the two places where we are allowed to show emotion. And so I think that is, you know, it's very often during sex or immediately after sex, kind of in that afterglow moment that it's like, oh, I can finally, like, breathe and, you know, I can like, say deep and meaningful things to my partner. And I don't feel. I don't feel bad or ashamed doing that.

So as a young therapist My approach was, you know, both of these are equally important. And I still believe that a lot of us have the tendency to write off sex as it, oh, it's just a physical act. It's just sex. But we truly believe sex is so much more than just a physical act. So I was trying to help couples see, like, you both want the same thing, and they're both equally important. So what if we just do both at the same time? I admit in the book, it did not have very good success. And it really wasn't until we were struggling with this more in our own relationship that something finally clicked for me. We were going through a period of disconnection in our relationship, and I was pushing Xander to have sex. Like, not. Not pressuring or guilting him, but kind of approaching it from, like, I think we just need to do it again. The way to, like, for us to get connected, we just gotta get it.

Done, get it done, get back in the saddle.

So we. Yeah, exactly. The get back in the saddle kind of sex. And so we had sex feeling very disconnected from each other. And afterwards, it. We both felt so icky. It didn't actually create that connection that I thought it was going to create. And there was just this feeling of this. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel good. And so what I. What I realized through that experience was couples need to have a base level, a foundation of emotional intimacy. Otherwise, sex just doesn't feel safe. And even in our relationship, we're like, you know, we do have a lot of trust and goodwill and foundation built up. But even then, it was like we were just in a small season of disconnection. But sex didn't feel good. So I. That was my stand of, you know what? Even though I'm a physical intimacy first type, and I really want my type to go first, I do think that it's important to focus. Focus on emotional intimacy first. If we don't have that foundation of emotional intimacy, it's really hard to feel truly safe having sex.

And because I think the other side of that is that it is okay. And it is understandable that, you know, most men. I'll just, you know, speak to men here, since that's the stereotype that, you know, that most men don't feel comfortable having too much emotional connection outside of sports and sex. So it is totally understandable that. Yeah, well, of course, if that is one of your two outlets, like, hey, yeah, I want to feel emotionally connected, so we gotta have sex. Totally understand that. And, you know, you can't go your whole life being like, okay, well this is, this is just how I'm wired. And the only way I'll ever have emotional connection is through having sex. Like, you know that that's taking a very close minded view of things. Of course. Like, if all you need to do is use sex as the proof that, hey, you are capable of, you know, emotional intelligence, of talking about your feelings, you know, you're able to do it in this situation. So that should be the proof that you need that you can do it in other situations. It's just, it's gonna be uncomfortable at first, it's gonna be vulnerable and, you know, so it's an opportunity to work on that. And you know, on the flip side is an opportunity for the emotional connection first partner to work on breaking down that association of like sex just being this physical itch. Because, because then, you know, the, the physical first partner feels super invalidated whenever you hear language. Oh, God. Like, oh, you just always want it.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And interestingly, we've also found that a lot of women in male, female relationships struggle to bring that emotion and presence into sex. Like, one of the most fascinating things that we hear from men in relationships with women is, you know, she tells me that she wants to be emotionally connected before sex, but then once we're actually in the moment having it, it's like she's not there. So it's a really interesting practice for so many of us women to bring our full selves into the moment during sex, to be emotional, to be vulnerable, and also to linger in it after we've had sex too.

In the way that you both are describing it, like, it is like you're speaking with such compassion to the other facet of the experience. Like, Xander, you are reminding us that the physical first people are craving physicality. Not because they're like horny, out of control, but because it's a, that's the opener to. And it feels like, right, and it feels like that's the way to have emotional closeness. And so you are both validating that and then challenging that. Actually you need to have a, you know, a broader palette. You need to have lots of entry points into emotionality. And then, Vanessa, you also, right, you're pushing back a little bit on this idea of, of for the emotion first people. It's like, okay, so you say you want emotional closeness. Like, let's have that really be a through line. How can that truly become something that is embodied? Like, can you stay, can you stay with your emotions inside of your body, you know, even around sexuality.

Yeah.

Before I let you guys go, I wanna just talk a little bit. You guys do such good work around initiation and rejection and these patterns that couples get into. Because it does. Like, there are ways that couples in, especially in longer term, sexually monogamous relationships kind of fall into patterns of who is initiating and how do you initiate. And losing sight of how tender rejection or declining sex feels. Even with the person who you know is the. Is the parent of your children and the person you built a life with, it still stings your heart to have somebody say no to you sexually. So you have some really beautiful, like, best practices for both how to initiate and how to decline and how to handle those moments of, like, are we, aren't we that feel so fraught for couples, Even couples who are well into their sexual journeys together.

Yeah. It's so important for us to recognize the vulnerability that goes into initiation. And unfortunately, a lot of us are so uncomfortable with initiating or being initiated with that we turn these moments into jokes. Or we make fun of our partner like, oh, leave me alone. Or oh, stop doing it like that. Or our partner is initiating in annoying ways, like the classic boob honk, you know, just coming up behind you and squeezing your boobs like some bike horns, like, that's really going to turn you on. So it just can lead to these really challenging experiences in the moment. And it's very easy to have a knee jerk like, no, stop, leave me alone. But the reality is that initiation, even when done not very skillfully, it really is very vulnerable. And it's so important for us to recognize that and to take some steps towards improving our initiation skills and how we handle those moments. Moments. I could talk to you for, like, another hour just about the initiation, but let me go through a couple of tips. The first thing that I want to say about initiation that I think so many of us get wrong is you don't have to be turned on to initiate or to accept your partner's initiation. And that goes. This goes back to the TV and movies, right? Like, people are always wildly turned on. They're so hot and heavy and, like, dying to run into the bedroom and turn, take their clothes off. Love. But the reality is for most of us is, you know, that the desire doesn't come into the equation until after we've agreed to be intimate. I love the concept of willingness. So one of our super practical tips is, rather than asking, do you want to have sex right now? Because even just that word want implies, oh, God, I'M supposed to be really turned on, instead changing it to, are you. Are you open to being intimate? Just that one word makes such a big difference.

Or are you open to getting turned on?

I love. I love that phrase. Yeah, it just creates so much more space then when it comes to. So let's say we're just going to skip ahead and we're going to say, Xander's initiated with me. I'm just not open to it whatsoever. Couple of things that you can do. One is we always recommend giving some sort of reason because it's very easy to take. Take rejection personally. You think, I'm not hot enough, I'm not attractive enough, my partner's not into me anymore. When the reality that we hear from couples is we're turning down sex for external reasons. I'm exhausted. I have a headache. I have this huge presentation tomorrow that I can't stop stressing out about. I've been touched out because the baby's been clinging to me all day. So you don't need to have an excuse for why you don't want to have sex. But often just sharing what's going on with your partner in an authentic and an open way can help them understand it's not about them. It's about the situation that's going on. And then our favorite tip is suggest something different. So, too often what happens is, you know, like, Xander will initiate with me. I'll just say, no knee jerk reaction. And then we both feel weird and awkward and uncomfortable, and we go to separate ends of the house. And now we feel even more awkward and weird and uncomfortable.

It's like, yeah, because, I mean, it was. It was vulnerable, and then it was. And then it's sort of like, like, you know, the conversation is just cut off.

Yeah.

And then you feel even more vulnerable.

Yeah. And it just. It feels like a lot of couples treat it as this all or nothing thing. Either we're doing it all or we're doing nothing whatsoever. But instead, like, suggest something different that the two of you could do that you are open to. So even if it's something really simple, like we're just going to sit on the couch and hold hands while we watch the trashy reality TV show to let go of all the stresses of the day. Or, like, we're gonna go on a little walk together. Or can we just do a hug? Like, just something like that can. Can make it feel like you're still connecting with each other. You're still doing something with each other, rather than this awkward retreating to Opposite ends of the house.

And who knows? You might even find out after doing that activity together, you might actually feel more open to the intimacy in. In the first place. Especially if you were, you know, an emotional intimacy first. First type. You might be like, well, I don't feel enough connection where we're having sex. Feels safe right now, so why don't I suggest a connecting activity? Something that's gonna feel good for both of us. And then. Yeah. And then surprise, surprise, you might. You might actually be more excited about it after that.

Yeah. Not as a guarantee, but just as a. Just as putting in. Putting in that effort, which I think also, like, effort gets such a bad name in relationships. Like, that is like, that's. That's the investment. Right. Saying like, Vanessa, for you to kind of counter Xander's offer with another idea is you putting an effort into the relationship, which, to your point, then, like, kind of cushions the no for Xander and isn't. Right. Keeps you from spiraling out around, what is it about me? What is it about her? Where are we going? And kind of like all of that anxiety that we. That we get filled with. So you've cushioned it.

The effort is so funny too, because if you think about the early stages of dating somebody, putting in a lot of effort with you was such a compliment. You know, Like, I remember talking to my girlfriend saying, like, oh, this guy Xander, like, he's calling me. He's inviting me on great dates. He keeps checking in with me. Like, the effort was such a good thing. And it felt so good to me to be on the receiving end of it. And it's so ironic and bizarre that we get into these relationships and, you know, years down the road, like. Like, oh, we have to put in effort. What's wrong with us that we have to try?

That's right. When it truly is, it is still a compliment. Right. It's like what we were saying in the beginning about the couple therapy. Right. That is an effort that you're making towards a relationship that says, this matters so much. As we wrap up here, I know that you have. I mean, so your book is gonna be in the links in the show notes because everyone needs a copy of this book. It is wonderful. I just sent it to somebody in my life today who needs it, and I want to have it. Yes, but you also have online courses, and in fact, you have one about the art of initiat. Do you want to tell us just a little bit about online courses and kind of what's, like, what's the preferred Path, you know, into and through all the different things that you guys have going on.

Yeah. So our focus is helping couples keep the spark alive in long term relationships. And like I was mentioning earlier, my biggest pet peeve is the vague and generic advice. So we have guides and courses that are so detailed and specific and really walk you through all these things that we feel like we should know or we beat ourselves up for not knowing, but in a really like, fun and playful way, like zero shame. It makes it really enjoyable to explore it with your partner. So you can find all of our stuff at vanessa and xander.com It's Xander with an X. Some of the ones that I'll call out that your audience might particularly enjoy are the Art of Initiation. We talk all about like, exactly how to initiate, how to navigate those moments where you're not quite sure are we going to or are we not? It's a really great course. We really believe that if couples can get initiation right, it's really the key to unlocking so many other aspects of your sex life too. And we also have our Ultimate Foreplay Guides and Next Level Intercourse, which are both more technique based guides that walk you through really fun and exciting techniques, techniques to try out with your partner. If you're somebody who's like, I don't know what great sex is to me, or I don't know how to describe what I want, I'm not sure I really even know what I want. Those are excellent starting points for you too.

It's been so nice to spend this time with both of you. Thank you so much for, for being here with me today.

Thank you for having us. This has been such a great conversation.

Thank you. And you're welco.

Thank you, Vanessa and Xander for joining me today. You know, I get so many questions from you all about sex, and I think lots of people understandably feel despair or panic when the dynamics in the bedroom change. People can start to have scary thoughts like, are we doomed?

Are the good old days over?

What's wrong with us? Well, I really hope this conversation has served as a big hug and has reassured you that the peaks and the valleys are normal and you can actually have a lot of fun co creating a new intimate environment with your partner. A space where you're having new conversations and getting to know sides of each other that you may not have encountered before. I strongly urge you to check out Vanessa and Xander's excellent book Sex Talks, as well as their podcast Pillow Talks. And if you're down for one of their sex challenges, head over to their website and check out their offerings. All of that is linked in the show notes, as well as some Reimagining Love episodes that we're highlighting from the back catalog that you can check out while we're on our little holiday hiatus. So until next year, be well. Thank you for listening to our show. Our producers are Elizabeth Vogt and Mary Chan and Katie Pagich of Organized Sound Productions. Our theme music was composed by Slade Warnkin. The show is executive Produced by me, Dr. Alexandra Solomon.

Do you have a relationship question that you want answered on the show? Visit reimagininglove.com to send in a written or audio question. Questions can be about intimate partnerships, family relationships, friendships, you name it. If you're looking for more love and relationship content, you can find me on Instagram @ Dr. Alexandra Solomon or visit my website DrAlexAndRasolomon.com where you'll find my blog as well as the intimate relationship 101 e course based off of the popular class I teach at Northwestern University. Thank you for listening and see you next week here on Reimagining.