E228: Breaking Down A Real-Life Text Fight (pt 2.)

We have all had bad behavior and we have all.

Including us.

Including us.

Probably in the last week. Yeah.

Not communicated well. Just not done a great job. So I always like to say that because it's easy to read over another couple's argument and be like, oh, my God, why did you put it that way? Why didn't you say it like this? You obviously shouldn't have done that. But when you're in the moment when emotions are high, like, it's very easy for us to make mistakes. We're all human. So I just want to give this couple some grace that they're human, too. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today, we're bringing back one of my favorite segments. Yes, thank you. I've already forgot the word.

I got you, girl. I know that look on your face and you're like, oh, my God, I've made a horrible mistake.

I put seven words into the episode and I was like, favorite what's it called? Segment. Okay, so recurring feature. So, ages ago, we did an episode that was all about breaking down a text fight. We turned to our Instagram community. We said, okay, if you and your partner have gotten into a fight over text, a long one, not just a, like, hey, you jerk, you forgot to take out the trash. If you got into a long fight over text, send us the receipts. We want to see the screenshots. And we will walk you through exactly how you and your partner could have had this fight better. Like, where you went wrong, where your partner went wrong. Specific suggestions like, I just think it's so fun. And it was in that original episode, like, it was so fun. Fun to play with a specific example and to be able to see it written out in front of us. Like, it's. I'll say, like, as a therapist, it's always a different experience when a couple would come into the office because they're trying to recap what happened. But of course, like, our memories aren't perfect. And there's always arguments about, like, well, I said a. No, you didn't. You Said B. No, I didn't. I said A. You know, so it's like you're never getting the accurate picture of what actually happen. Yeah.

Unless they get in a fight, like.

In the office with you in the office. That. That's what I loved about this text fight. That we have the receipts word for word, exactly what you each said, and we can, like, break it down. So we did this episode for the first time ages ago. And we. I think we said in the episode that was so fun, we're totally gonna do this again. And then we forgot, did we not?

I. I thought we've done a couple of these. No, no.

This is only our second one.

Wow. Yeah, that's. I'm glad that we're doing it because I. I think that this is one of those things where it's like, I shouldn't say. It's so easy. It's so much easier to talk about communication in theory. In like, okay, here's what you should do in general. Here's what you shouldn't do in general. And it's so easy to be like, okay, yeah, my partner and I were talking about this. We're on the same page about how we want to communicate about what to do. This is how we're going to handle XYZ when ABC happens. And then when it actually happens in practice, it's so easy for it to just all go out the window. You have these really good intentions and then shit hits the fan and we revert back to our conditioning, to what we're used to, to what we're comfortable with, to, you know, that we get triggered and all these things come up. So it's so much more helpful, I think, for people to have a real example in front of them. And here we really get to marry the theory with the reality.

Yeah. And I just also love it because it gives such a great opportunity for us to share communication tips. Like, it's one thing for us just to say, like, you should use eye language that helps your partner not be defensive, but when you have, like, a real example in front of you of, like, this person didn't. Did not say this in a great way.

Here's why.

Here's why. And here's what they could have said to be better. It's just, it's so much easier to, like, see these communication tips, like, in the wild. I think you learn better as a listener, too. So today we've got. Got a brand new fight for you.

We are going to fight guys.

And definitely let us know if you like this format, because when we put out another call for more fights over text, I think we caught, like, 10 really great examples that we could work off of, so we could just.

Yeah, people are fighting, babe. The people are fighting.

Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. I'm first gonna read you a little bit of backstory about this couple. The wife was the one who sent this in, and it's a husband and wife. So maybe I will read the wife, you read the husband, and we will pause along the way to note what went right, what went wrong, what you could have said a little bit differently.

And in typical fashion, Vanessa's read all of this.

No, I haven't. I read. I've read a few messages. Enough to see. I scrolled through, and I'm like, okay. There's plenty of screenshots, so there's lots for us to work off of.

Okay. We're on more. Even more even. Playing field. I was gonna say, per usual. Vanessa has read all of this.

I don't have a head.

She requested that I not look at it. So that can get my. My legitimate reactions in the moment. But this is great. We're both gonna be. Both gonna be giving our real, honest reactions in the moment.

Okay, so this is a married couple. They have four young kids. She says her mental load is enormous. Very important topic. We have a couple of other episodes about that. If you have not heard us talk about mental load before. Um, she also struggles with her self confidence right now. So what happens? What has happened in the. He initiates sex a lot more often. His sex drive is a lot higher than hers, and when she says no to sex, she says it will cause problems. Like, she feels like he gets mad at her for saying no. He gives her the cold shoulder. So right before this fight, there was another incident of this. He initiated sex. She said no. He got upset.

Okay, great background. The table is set. Okay, let's get into it. All right. Okay.

So here's what she says.

And we're going, like, left. Left to. With all these screenshots here, right? Like. Okay, Just. Just making sure. Want to deliver this as realistically as possible. And. Sorry, who's blue and who's black?

Blue is the wife. You're black.

Gotcha.

Okay. I freeze up when we argue because I'm afraid you'll leave me. I didn't intend to make you feel undesired. It's not that at all. My drive is low and even lower from meds, which is why you initiating helps. Like, we've talked about you find connection more with sex, and I find connection more with time spent and cuddles, and it's been hard to do that lately. I love you, and I'm sorry I couldn't give you what you wanted. I hope we can start over tomorrow. This is a good start.

This is very. This is.

This is a great start.

Okay, so I'm like, my new media reaction is, there doesn't need to be a fight that comes out of this. However, I will say, I don't know the backstory this might be. The partner might be thinking, like, the partner might have received a very similar message to this multiple, multiple times. They might be resentful about a whole variety of other things. Just this, on the surface is like, okay, yeah, that's like, a really well thought out. And it sounds like someone who has been listening to our podcast for a while or following us for a while, because this is really well written, very clear and very neutral.

Okay, so there are a couple of great things she does. And actually, before I get into it, let us also say, when it comes to fighting, we have all had bad behavior and we have all.

Including us. Including us, probably in the last week. Yeah.

Not communicated well. Just not done a great job. So I always like to say that because it's easy to read over another couple's argument and be like, oh, my God, why did you put it that way? Why didn't you say it like this? You obviously shouldn't have done that. But when you're in the moment when emotions are high, like, it's very easy for us to make mistakes. We're all human. So I just wanna give this couple some grace, that they're human too. Okay, so. But let's talk about what I like about this. She's bringing up a deeper fear, which is she's showing her vulnerability. I'm afraid that you'll leave me.

Right.

She's also making it clear, I'm not wanting you to feel undesired. That is not the issue. And that really is the case in, like, 98% of the couples that we talk to. Sex drive differences are not about one partner being less attracted to the other partner. It's all the other stuff going on in life that's getting in the way of intimacy. It's not an attraction issue. So I like that she points out, like, I don't want you to feel undesired. She reminds him, like, the meds are one of the things that are causing her low desire. She points out that she needs to feel connected in order to feel open to sex. And it's been hard for them to find the time for, like, spending quality time together and having cuddles. She says, I love you. She apologizes, and I hope we can start over tomorrow. Like, this is all great. Okay, so how. What do we hear from the husband?

I'm not going to leave you if I'm having a hard time and not feeling good about myself. Being told that you aren't interested a bunch just makes it worse and me feel worse and why bother trying or asking or telling you I want you just because you will say no again because you aren't interested in me. Even upset, I still wanted to spend time with you. That's why I said we had time to play our game a bit.

Okay, what do you think?

Okay, well, I think I was, I was thinking about this even in the last message where she's talking about, I don't want to make you feel undesired. Clearly there's a. This is a big sticking point with them. She has a lower sex drive. He has, you know, she's scared that he will leave her. I think he's scared that he's undesirable to her. He's maybe not naming that as a big fear, but clearly that's a big thing. She's trying to tell him. No, no, it's not about me not desiring you. So before we even get into, like, what he said, I think like a huge, huge, huge important thing in their relationship just from like. And I, I could tell this just from the first message before he even hopped in. She has got to find ways to show him that she desires him beyond just sex or beyond just initiating sex. Because sex cannot be the only way that we validate our partner, the only way that we show them we want them. Because sex cannot always happen all the time.

Yeah.

You know, when things are good, sure, you can fall into a good rhythm, but, like, shit happens. Vanessa and I are in a. Are in a season of life right now where stuff is happening completely out of our control. Like family stuff, family health stuff. And it's a challenge. And like, I, I know our, our sex life is going to be less frequent, most likely because we're both feeling like, in tough situations, there's tough emotions coming up with things that are happening in our life. And so that's like, that's why we cannot rely on sex as the one thing that, that gives us that feeling of, oh, my partner really wants me, so she has got to find a way, other ways to show him how desirable he is to her. I think that so many of us are so scared to do that if we have the lower sex drive because we go, oh my God. If I do anything to validate my partner, if I do anything to tell them how sexy I think they are or how attractive I think they are, how much I want them, they're going to want sex. They're going to think I'm initiating. And so I think that we shut ourselves down from doing this for our partner. And, and that only exacerbates the situation because then it then it feels like, oh my God. The only possible way that I can feel wanted is if my partner says yes to sex. So it's like all you're doing is actually, you are raising the bar every time you go, oh, I don't, I don't want to give my partner a compliment because then they might want to have sex with me. You're raising the bar. You're making it harder and harder and harder for them to get what they need in your relationship. And then on the flip side, he has got to find ways to, to emotionally connect with her that are not just sex. And I know that that is a very common, you know, he, he is a sex before connection type. That does not mean that the only way he can feel connection is through sex. That's just the default. My default. My first choice when I want to feel connected is have sex. That doesn't mean that it's the only way. So he's got to find other ways to create connection. And I think like, this is long term. This is going to be the thing that gets them out of this hole that they've dug for themselves.

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Yeah. And, and also this, this is so, so tricky. But I mean, I think that he describes really well that kind of weird cycle that you can get into when you are the only one or almost always the only one initiating and the receiving the initiation. See, it seems like they almost always or they regularly say no. This is such a common pattern that especially men deal with is the, okay, well, you know, I don't feel good when you say no. I don't feel good about myself when you say no. You say no fairly frequently. So why bother continuing to ask? Because you're likely going to say no and I'm only going to feel worse about myself. And so it's easier to just not ask. And so he's, yeah, he's starting to kind of describe that to her. I mean, do you like the way that he described that or do you think there's a better way that he could have put that?

I think there's a probably slightly better way that he could have put that. I think, like the saying, like, why bother Trying or asking. I don't like it.

It feels defeatist.

Yeah, it is very defeatist. I think it's a different thing to speak to. Like, hey, I, you know, it's. I just want some acknowledgment that it's really hard to be in my shoes, that I'm the one who does the majority of the initiating, and so therefore, I'm the one who hears the, you know, majority of the rejections. And it's just hard to be turned down when I'm wanting to connect with the person that I love.

And I think this gets back to the comment that I made before of like, she's got to find ways to make him feel desired that are not just saying yes to sex. Because I think what's underlying in all of this that he probably. He may not have realized yet for himself, but, like, he described kind of like the. The outcome of the situation that he's in, which is, I feel less and less motivated to initiate sex because it feels like you're just going to say no and I'm just going to feel bad about myself. But what's really underlying that is I'm not feeling very wanted by you, and that's really hard. Are there other ways that you can show me that you want me? So I think that that is, like, you know, that's like. Like, that's probably like the A plus way of communicating is if. If you can really think about, okay, not just like, what is the dynamic or the, you know, the kind of like, the spiral that I'm going through in my head, but what's underlying that? What would. What would help solve that? And it's not just like. Because it doesn't make sense to be like, okay, well, when you say no, then I don't want to initiate. So therefore, the answer is that you just have to say yes all the time. Like, that's impractical. Right? So it's like, you got to think about, okay, so what is. What is practically underlying all of this? Oh, okay. It's that. It's that, yeah, I don't feel good about myself when it doesn't feel like you want me. Now, you can't always say yes to sex. So how can we find other ways to make me feel, like, wanted and desired by you? Because that's a really important part of a relationship.

Okay, so let's. We gotta move on. We only got one screenshot.

We're going deep here, guys. We've solved the problem in two texts. No, I'm just kidding. Let's keep going.

Okay. The next morning, she says, is our marriage really not okay? Because I've said, no, I don't love that. That's like, I am. I keep looking back through this. I'm like, did we miss a message or something here? Because it feels like she kind of turned the heat up a bit unnecessarily.

Yeah, she's right. This is a ratcheting up. But I think this. We see this so often in these. In these types of scenarios where it seems like. It seems like things are kind of okay, and then one person out of nowhere is like. It's like, ooh, I feel uncomfortable with where we left things, so let's turn up the heat.

Yeah, we. We both are guilty of that, too. Okay. So she says, is our marriage really not okay? Because I've said no. I can't help that my drive is so low. My medication really affects it. It's not that I'm not attracted to you. I am. I love you and I love sex with you and our life together. Okay, got better. But still, it's like, where are we going with this?

Yeah, but it's also kind of like, as you know, the way. The same way that we said it's a bit defeatist, where he's like, well, I. Why even bother y. Initiating sex with you? It also, I'm not trying to diminish whatever meds that you were on, but saying I can't help the fact because of my meds that that is defeatist in its own way. Like, yes, things can impact your sex drive, but you can't just say. You can't just throw your hands up and be like, oh, like, I will never have a sex drive because of this medication that I'm on. Like, like, you know, it's just one thing impacting it. So he continues, I'm not still upset that you said no. I'm upset that it seems like you don't think I'm allowed to be upset about it and that my feelings and needs are less important than yours. Sounds like he's been listening to our podcast, too. You say no a lot more than you say yes. And I rarely get upset about it. So sometimes I need the connection and validation more than others and still get a few no's in a row. Then I'm going to be upset. I'm not okay with being made to feel like that isn't allowed and my feelings aren't important.

Okay, so here we really get to the heart of having mismatched sex drives in A relationship, which, by the way, every couple has mismatched sex drives in a relationship. But there is always going to be one partner initiating more often and therefore getting turned down more often. And it needs to be okay for that person to be disappointed because it's sex. We have this tendency to think of it as just this physical act. Oh, he's just horny. She's just wanting to get off. We really write it off. But imagine this scenario and what instead he was asking for is a date night. Hey, can we have a date night? No, I'm sorry. I'm not in the mood. Okay. He comes back the next week. Hey, I'd really love to have a date night with you. Can we do it? No, I'm not in the mood. We don't have the time. Okay. Like, we would be more empathetic to that, right? Like, oh, my God, this poor guy's just trying to have a date night with his wife. And she keeps saying no. Like, we need to see sex in the same way that it is a bid for connection. It's a way to be intimate and close with each other. Like, what we're really looking for through sex is this feeling of connection. So it needs to be okay for the partner being turned down to be disappointed about it. Now, the key is how do we handle that disappointment? So the disappointment has to be hand in hand with respect for the decision, respect for the no. So there cannot be any guilt tripping, any manipulating, any pressuring, any trying to get you to change your mind. If it doesn't have respect for the no, then we're veering into that's unhealthy, unacceptable territory.

I also wanna point out that Vanessa said disappointment. She didn't say upset. Now he is saying here it needs to be okay that I'm upset. I think that upset is if we're kind of like, ranking emotions in terms of, like, how. How serious or extreme they are. I would say that upset. Because upset is usually more of an active thing. I am upset with you versus I'm disappointed is a little more passive. I'm feeling disappointed that that happened. I'm disappointed that you said. No, you're not saying, I'm disappointed in you. I'm not saying I'm angry at you. I'm mad at you. I think upset is. Is approaching anger territory. Like, because I worry that, well, different.

Couples can use the word differently, but.

I worry that she might perceive it that way. He's written this down. We don't, you know, know he's typing this so there's no voice. There's no, like, intonation. So we can't tell, like, how much emotion is behind that word. Or. Or, you know, what if he's meaning. I'm like, just a little upset, like a little disappointed versus, hey, I'm. I'm upset. I'm upset that you're saying no.

I think it's. I think different couples use those words differently because I. I say you should be allowed to be disappointed. And for some people, they're like, someone being disappointed in me is the worst feeling I could possibly feel. So some people give pushback to disappointed. So I don't want to, like, police the exact words, but the vibe is like, it's okay for you to be let down, bummed out, sad. Like a feeling of like, hey, I had wanted to connect with you, and we're not going to connect. And that's a bummer.

Yeah.

It's not okay to be, like, aggressive, angry. How dare you. You're a jerk. You know, anything like that. So it's more about. Yeah, it's just. Just more of a gentleness around the feeling.

Okay. Yeah. I just kind of wanted to flag that because that's a word where. I'm not sure. What direction are we going more in the. I'm a little disappointed in a kind of passive way direction, or I am. I am getting upset and maybe mad and angry and. Or resentful at you. Those feel like two very different things. I think the other thing I want to call out is that he's saying. He's basically saying, so, like, like, if sometimes I need more connection and validation and I get a no, in that case, then I'm going to be upset that. I think that really gets back to the comment I'm going to keep hammering this home of, like, the underlying need for him is not feeling wanted. And so what he's saying, like, I think what's a little tricky here is what he's saying is, oh, well, when I'm in particular need of validation and you say no, then I'm going to guess then I'm gonna have a feeling about it. Is again, he's talking about he's missing the next layer of the onion. Like, he. What. What is missing is peeling that back a bit and be like. And being like, I need to find more ways to get validation from you.

Yeah.

To. To feel wanted from you. That are not just sex. Yeah. To feel connected to you. That's not just sex. Because. Because what he's kind of saying here is like, oh, If I'm feeling a little. If I'm feeling a little unsure or not 100 confident. Everything is depending on this initiation. And that's not a. You don't want to be in a relationship where. Where the stakes are. You don't ever want the stakes to be so high where, you know, this feels like. You know, it's like. It's like fourth and goal in the fourth quarter in a football game. Right. And, like, it's like, we have to score. It's the only way to win. Like, that's not what you want initiation to be, like, in your relationship, but that's what is. It feels like is happening here. He's like, oh, yeah, if you don't say yes, I'm gonna feel really bad about myself.

Yeah.

So that's. That's just not a good situation to be in.

Yeah. So I would tailor his response a little bit. I would say, like, hey, I. Rather than I'm allowed to be upset. There's a lot of, like, he's really asserting himself here. I would go gentler with this. And, like, he's saying, like, I'm not okay with being made to feel like that isn't allowed. I would say I want there to be space in our relationship for me to feel sad, bummed out, disappointed, whatever word. Feels good.

To have feelings about it.

For me to have feelings about it. And I want to feel like my needs and your needs are equally important. Like, I want to feel like my needs are respected even though they can't be met 100% of the time. I think that would go over way better. Okay. She says, no, you're allowed to be upset and feel upset about it. It came out as anger rather than being upset. And that's where the issue is, because it turns into me feeling like I'm obligated to do what you want to make you happy at the expense of my own autonomy. Great.

Okay.

We should have just went forward.

I had a feeling. I had a feeling. No.

So they're okay with the word upset? Upset is fine with them.

But she said it started to feel like anger.

Yeah, but in this specific instance, she was feeling like he was angry at her. So she made that great distinction. You're allowed to be upset, but you're not allowed to be angry. And she really clearly laid it out. Yeah. It's making me feel like I have to do this.

Yeah. Well, I guess that's why I'm saying, hey, you guys might want to discuss what are. Like, you might want to. This might sound Silly. But you might want to discuss a bit more. When I say the word upset, what does that feel like for me when I say the word I'm angry. What does that feel like for me when I say the word I'm disappointed or I'm bummed out. What does that feel like for me? And it seems so basic, but like, literally writing those definitions out and then. But that will allow you to calibrate. Okay. Because if you do that, I suspect he might be like, you know what? What's actually coming up for me in that moment, it's more like I'm bummed out or I'm feeling disappointed. And so it might be better for me to use those words instead. Because what she's saying right there is, okay, yeah, you can be upset, but it was verging on angry. So it's like if I'm ranking those words in their relationship, I bet you bummed out is at the bottom. Upset is going to be in the middle, and angry is on the more extreme end. And so I'm saying upset is a little too close to angry, where it's like, oh, if there's a little bit, you know, a little more spice with it, it's verging in angry territory. So let's recalibrate and kind of shift our vocabulary a little bit so that it's more clear.

Okay, I have to give a quick little disclaimer here. If all of a sudden you're like, what was that weird sound in the background when Xander was talking? And now there it is again. We are currently under construction in our home. There is some massive concrete jackhammering going on outside. We were very careful today. We planned to record the episode right when they take their lunch break. They've been taking a one hour, 12 o' clock lunch break every other day. But today they decided to take a 35 minute, 35 minute lunch break. So we are just gonna have to soldier on. Cause life is lifein right now. And so sorry, if you hear a little fun, little extra noise in the background there. I actually have no idea how much it's gonna get picked up. Maybe it's. Let's just hope it's. It's.

Yeah, maybe some of it can be filtered out. We'll see.

We'll see. Okay, well, why don't you continue on with what he said?

All right. So, yeah, he continues, well, I wasn't angry, just upset and hurt.

Okay. She says it makes sense that you'd be upset because that's how you like to feel close to Me, I understand that it doesn't feel good to hear. No, great. I love that makes sense is one of the best things that you can tell your partner when you guys a conflict, like, about their feelings. Your feelings make sense. Even if they don't make sense to you, just say it makes sense. It's so validating. Like, it's really good to hear as a partner.

So I like, well, don't, don't, don't lie about it. But it may not. Here's the thing. It may not make sense to you, but think about how that could make sense to them.

That's what I mean.

You're, you're saying, you know what? I can see you're, you're looking at it that way. You know, I, the way that you're thinking about it, I can see how that makes sense for you. You do not have to ever say that makes sense to me. As long as you can understand that that might make sense for somebody else. That is the real key. And so many couples, thousands and thousands and thousands, probably the majority of couples get so hung up on that point in conflict that it's really not possible to, to improve beyond that. And it's like, and, and when you can't do that, there's no way that both people are going to ever come out of a conflict feeling validated. So if hear that and take that one thing away from this podcast, that is huge.

So I like that she validates him. That makes sense. That's how you like to feel close to me. It shows that she understands him. And like, yeah, I understand that it doesn't feel good to hear. No, totally validating. I love this.

But again, they are focused. They are focused on treating symptoms rather than getting to the cause of these symptoms. They're focused on, I guess that is the way you like to feel close to me. So of course you feel upset. That is a symptom of. We don't have any other ways to feel close. We haven't developed other ways for you to feel close to me. So again, I, I'm just, I'm just going to keep getting back to this. I think, I see, I see what is underlying all of this. And I think that they could, in the future, they can avoid conflicts like this by getting a layer deeper rather than being like, hey, I'm upset that you said no because I don't feel wanted. And it's, and then you have an argument about that rather than being like, hey, I don't feel very wanted right now. Can we think about Finding some ways that you could help me feel more wanted.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with you on that. Like, I think that. I think they needed to address this specific incident that happened. I would have a separate conversation at an unrelated time, not right after a triggering event. That talks about what you're saying, like, the bigger, deeper issue.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I wouldn't do that here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm not saying you shouldn't have done this. What I'm saying is now that we have hindsight on this, now that you've had this argument and you can look back, we can review the tape and you can review the tape. This is what I'm seeing, so I'm not telling you. You should have not had this. Now that you've had this, we have the benefit of hindsight to be able to see. See. Oh, okay. This is what's really going on. So this is what you guys could work on in the meantime to try to decrease the frequency with which you have these type of conflicts.

Okay. So then she sends a second message. If I was her, I would have just sent that first message and just let him respond. Because she introduces something different with the second message. She says, I worry that if I say yes when I don't really want to, then it turns into something else.

Yeah, that. Yeah, that. That doesn't seem necessary because it doesn't sound like he has ever express. He hasn't yet expressed anything about. I wish you would have just said yes.

Yeah, yeah. And she's. Yeah, she's introducing something new that I don't think needs to be here.

Right.

It's valid, but not. Doesn't need to be here Right now.

I don't want you to say yes when you don't want to. But if you make me feel bad when I get upset once in a while when I've gotten no. A bunch of times in a row, then you are telling me that you are more important than me, and I'm not interested in being part of that.

See, if she had just left it to the first message. She validated him so well. And now. But then, because she dropped in that second message, now he's back to like, ah, I'm trying to get validation. He, like, missed the fact that she really was trying to validate him.

Yeah, yeah. And I worry that he kind of took her message of, I worry that if I say yes, blah, blah, blah, that, that he's thinking she's kind of subtly implying that. That he's trying to manipulate her. Or that he's, like, trying to. Yeah, that. That he's trying to pressure her.

Yeah.

And it doesn't. We don't know the history. Maybe there is a history of that, maybe there isn't. From what I've seen so far, he hasn't said anything that's indicated, like, oh, like, I wish that you would just say yes more or, you know, throw me a bone once in a while. There hasn't been anything that's touched on that.

That.

So I. It seems like he's getting a little triggered because he's feeling like she's kind of trying to, like, paint him as, like, being pushy.

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Way.

Okay. I don't hate it. I like that. She reiterates, again, you're allowed to be upset. Then she continues. Nobody's feelings are more important than the others. Just because I'm saying no doesn't mean I don't love you and don't care about you. It makes it seem like your happiness in our marriage is tied to how often we have sex. And there's pressure with that. Okay, again, it's like, just stop. I think this is the thing. When we have fights and you and I are so guilty of this, too. It's like we try to do too many things at the same time. When you're having a fight with your partner, slow the fuck down. Cover, like, half the content that you want to. Like one thing at a time.

Or half a thing at a.

Time. Yeah. She said so many other good things, but then it's like, it's gonna get buried because now she's saying, like, oh, well, you know, our marriage is all about how often you have.

Sex. Yeah. And also, I mean, yeah, bringing up happiness is a real big, wide thing. Maybe she could have said it feels like your. Like your ability to feel wanted or validated is tied to how often we have sex. Or really, if she was being more accurate, it would be fair to say it would be kind of coming out of nowhere, but it would be fair. She's pointing out what I've been pointing out this whole time. It feels like your ability to feel wanted or to feel good about yourself is directly tied to how often I say.

Yes.

Yes. To having sex with you. But instead she goes, oh, you know, what he's probably hearing is she's saying, well, it just seems like you can't be happy unless we're having a ton of sex. Which then it feels like that just feels like an impossible argument to have. That's. It's like an unquantifiable.

Thing.

Yeah. That now he has to argue against.

Too.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I would start to be. I would be getting. Getting. I would be getting real frustrated in this situation, and I would probably. But I wouldn't. I probably wouldn't know why, because it's hard to put your finger on that. But It'd be like, wait, now I feel like I'm, like, fighting multiple battle. Like, first I'm like, now it's like I have to defend myself against pressuring you to have sex. Because I think also, there's also a big gender dynamic here where it's like, I'm really sensitive to that. When. As soon as you. Especially as soon as I, as a man, as soon as I hear something that starts to feel like kind of one of those tricky gender things. Oh, you're. You're a guy and you might be pressuring me to have sex with you, I'm gonna get defensive because that feels like that's. Hey, that's an important. That's really important to me. I do not want to be that guy that's doing that. And if you're kind of trying to subtly imply that maybe I am being that guy, I don't want to be, like, defensive, like, hey, you know, like. Like, hey, that's. But it's more of like, hey, you've leveled this accusation. We. Let's make sure we cover. I got to hear this out because this is really important. I do not want it to look or feel like I'm trying to gloss this over or I'm trying to, like, you know, just kind of leave that, you know, that accusation that you lobbed at me there. I want to make sure that we're. Because that's not like, I'm not. Okay, I'm. I don't feel like I'm in integrity with myself as a man can. If that's kind of out there in the open as something that might be happening. And I'm not. I'm not 100 sure what my partner's feeling about that. So I think that that can be. That is one of those tricky things. And. And similar with this, like, oh, it seems like you can't be happy unless we're having X amount of sex. That's another one where it kind of feels a little icky as a guy to hear because I'm like, this is. This feels like such a stereotypical male thing, this sort of, like, accusation that's being leveled at me. And I'm like, yeah, I wanna. I would wanna really dig into that. Now I'm like, okay, so now I'm, like, fighting a battle on multiple fronts where it's like, okay, we gotta get to the bottom of this pressure, you have sex thing. Now we gotta get to the bottom of this happiness thing. Like, and then there's also the issue of what we're Fighting about to start.

With. Yeah, she. Yeah. So she's really just, like, opened up another can of worms in an already, like, starting to get complicated.

Situation. Too many.

Worms. There's too many worms. She also says, and what do you mean? That you're not interested in the situation or that you're not interested in our relationship and marriage? Previously, yeah, he said, I'm not interested in being a part of.

That. Yeah, I wanted to flag that, too. We moved on too quickly. But, yeah, I don't know what that means. But that's. That's another one, like, just like I was saying where, like, you know, I don't love the fact that she kind of, like, made this one implication about the pressuring and then this implication about the, like, you can't be happy unless we're having enough sex. Sex. That's. That's, you know, another one on the flip side where it's like, he kind of left a little like a bomb or a. My, you know, the landmine right there of, like, what does that mean? Because, yeah, it sounds a bit like he's like, oh, I'm not interested in being a part of. Yeah, a part of our relationship. Part of what? That's unclear. And that's. That's gonna probably blow up in your face later on. And here it is. And also, just want to call. We're getting to point the point in text message land where it's like, how do you have a text conversation about three different arguments at the same time? Not to say it's easier in person. Maybe it's a little easier in person because you can be like, hey, let's cover this. Okay, now let's cover that. But it's, like, in text. Oh, God. This is. This is a.

Challenge. Also, just don't talk about the potential end of your marriage over text. Yeah, that's a general good.

Word. Yeah, good. Yeah, good idea. Good idea. Okay, so let's see. What do you think? I didn't say you weren't allowed to say. No, I was upset, but asked you what you wanted to do instead, and then you got mad at me that I was upset. I got more upset and angry when it felt like you were making my feelings seem.

Unreasonable. Okay, so I like that he clarifies like this. I'm not trying to say that you're not allowed to say no, that's.

Good. Yeah. All right. So then. Okay, I just said, you know, the problem with text is it's hard to have, like, three conversations at once. At this point, he starts using the respond to a message feature. So in response to her message about, like, like, you know, no, nobody's feelings are more important than the other. Then he says, well, I won't be happy in our marriage if we don't have sex. We already had that happen and seen how it.

Went. Okay.

Okay. That. This. This is tricky because that is. That is. That. That is fair to a certain extent, but that is a very.

General. You got to say it differently.

Statement that that is not going to be helpful in.

That. Don't say it like this. I would say sex is one of the times that I feel the most connected to you, the most intimate and vulnerable with you. It's very important to me. And for me, that is a really healthy part of a.

Relationship. But I don't think even that is a very key.

Part. I don't think he even needs to say this because she's not saying, I never want to have sex with you. Like, I think he's just feeling defensive. He's not feeling validated. Even though she's trying so hard to validate him, he's feeling invalidated. So he's. He's, like, digging in even deeper. And. And it just feels like a jab to say, like, we already had that happen and saw how that.

Went. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of like raising boundaries in situations where it's not actually called for. Like, it's like jumping. Well, don't worry. Like, oh, well, just to make sure everyone's clear, like, I can't be in a relationship with you if we don't have sex. Oh. Just so it's clear, I can't be. It's like, we're not talking about. About. We're not talking about ending the.

Relationship.

Yeah. Right now, you know, as of 24 hours ago, I don't think either of you were thinking about ending the relationship. So, yeah, having. Throwing those types of. Like, oh, well, this is a deal breaker for me. When it's like, we're not actually at that point yet. Is not helpful. It's like more kind of like landmines that you're just sort of throwing out there that someone might. Might or might not bump into, you know, later on in the course of the arc argument. So he drops that one there. Then he responds to the, you know, and what do you mean about the. Like, you're not interested in that type of situation? He says, I'm not interested in a relationship where important feelings to me are marginalized and I'm made to feel second Class with my.

Feelings. This guy's really struggling to feel validated. I think there's a deeper history.

There. Well, it's getting back to what is missing. He's not feeling wanted, validated.

Needed. I think validation is a much bigger, much bigger, deeper, older issue than just the sex and not feeling attractive. Like there is, there's nothing, nothing in this conversation that makes me think she thinks he's a second class citizen. His feelings are not important. Like, so there's something deeper here. There's a, there's more of a.

History. And I think another thing I'll say here, I, I can't say, I can't know if this is happening in their relationship or not, but, but I know this has come up for me. I know this comes up for many, many men. So I think that there can also be a dynamic in male female relationships where men typically were socialized to be less comfortable with feelings and expressing feelings and sharing them. And so as a result, we don't engage with that type of stuff very often. And so of course when we do, it feels like a really big deal for us. But the flip side of that is because we don't have a lot of practice with it. We often come in really hot or we come in, in an unskilled way sharing our feelings. And so I think that what can very often happen is I'm thinking, okay, I don't usually do this, but I'm going to get really vulnerable with how I'm feeling and that's going to be a good thing. Right? Like my partner wants me to be more emotional, wants to know more, wants me to be more vulnerable. I'm finally going to do, do it. And you're not realizing that you're doing it in a really unskilled way or in a potentially hurtful or harmful way and your partner calls you out on that, or your partner gets upset or has what feels to you like a disproportionate response. And so it can feel to me like, like, oh, well, God, I barely ever like share my feelings like this, but whenever I do, it goes horribly wrong or like you don't validate me. And so it feels like they're not important to you, but we're not recognizing that. Hey, the issue, you know, the main issue is that I don't do this enough. So I feel really, I'm not, I don't feel prepared for how to share this in an effective way that my partner is going to hear in the right way. And so it's kind of this catch 22 for. For men of, like, how do we express our emotions when we don't have a lot of practice doing.

It? So then she continues. Okay, well, I'll just go off my meds then. Okay. Don't make suggestions that you're not actually gon do. This is something that you do actually, that, like, I used to do that sometimes you get. There's an anxiety that comes up. You just want to, like, resolve the issue. And so you'll make a suggestion where I'm, like, I'm obviously not gonna do that. Like, I'm not gonna let you do that. That's not a good. It's infuriating when it happens. It's like. And like, come on. Like, you're not going off your meds because of your sex life. So I don't. I. Oh, that makes me upset. So she says, and maybe we should try couples counseling, because this has been a recurring fight. Great. Yes. You definite couples.

Counseling. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? No, you don't need to go off your.

Meds. Well, it'll help bring my libido back and resolve the problem, so why.

Not? Yeah. I hate to say this, because I have been guilty of doing this a lot, but really making a comment like that is actually is. I hate to say it. It's just manipulative because what you're doing, you're. You're polarizing. You're saying something really extreme so that you are forcing your partner to jump in and say, oh, no, you don't need to do that. That. So. So that now. Now the partner. So that, like, what's going on behind the scenes now is you're like, oh, well, my partner now is totally on board with the meds. So now that. Because now you can be like, the next time this happens, you can be like, well, I. I told you, it's all the meds, and you told me that I should be on the meds, and that's just a manipulative way to. To argue. All right, so then he responds because you said they help you feel.

Better. Yeah. And if it ends with you leaving me because I'm saying no, then will I feel better then like, you guys? They're getting so derailed, going so off.

Track. Well, I mean, she said at the beginning she has a fear of him, of him leaving. So it's like he has a deeper issue with validation. She has a deeper issue with fear of abandonment. Sounds like some couples therapy to talk about those issues. Not the sack. The sex. You can talk about after you Guys talk about these deeper issues because, honestly, if you start to solve these deeper issues, the sex thing will probably start to solve it itself. All right, so then he says, it has been fine and great for a long time now. I was upset last night, but I wasn't angry at you for saying no. I would have gotten over it in a day or two, except that you made me feel like I'm not allowed to be upset about it. Before you had the meds was when we had less sex because we were less.

Happy. I told you a lot last night that you're allowed to be upset about it, and I've said it a lot today. True. You are allowed to be upset about it. It Love that she keeps reiterating it. It's okay to be disappointed being told no. It's vulnerable to initiate. And I get that. It really felt like I was being punished. It's just the same. We're. Now we're getting into, like, you know, going around the cycling around saying all the same things, like, she's starting with the validation. Just leave it there. It really felt like I was being punished and you were taking it out on me because I said no. Because of how you talked to me after. Yes. You asked me what I wanted to do, and you said it in a way that was.

Hurtful. You said it, but you didn't act like it. You just acted like I was unreasonable. See, this. This is. This is the reason why Vanessa is saying is great that you validated him, but then don't go into it really felt like I was being punished because now instead he's not hearing the validation, he's instead jumping into, well, you. You validate. But then you accuse me of something, and now I need to defend myself. So, yeah, this is. This is why that's not effective. Because she keeps saying the validating things, but then she keeps saying other things, and so the validation never actually gets through to.

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Whatever. Well, we're all allowed to have our feeling. Like if he's upset, she's allowed to feel upset that he's upset. But again, it's like we just have to validate the core experience. You're allowed to be frustrated. I was upset because it was like I was being punished for saying no. It's not unreasonable for you to be disappointed, but I don't think it's fair to treat me differently. We're going in circles. We keep coming back to the same thing, and I don't know how we resolve.

This. Well, I don't know what to tell you. I'm upset. I'm going to treat you differently because I'm upset. I'll get over it. But if that's how you are going to react anytime I'm upset, then it's just going to make me hide it. And that's what I did before and it didn't work, so we might as well stop now. When I hit it, you are upset that I hit it. So I don't know what to do. We have been happy and good with the kids and having an okay amount of sex and I've been trying to do less business stuff or cleaning or whatever and spend more time with you instead of instead. So we have more time together with just us. Work has been crappy, kids have been stressful for me lately, and I've been feeling unattractive and shitty about myself and maybe you just aren't attracted to.

Me. They both can't help themselves from, from continuing on.

But. But I do think he might have said something in a way that she might understand it though, about the.

Attractiveness. Oh, yeah, there's a. There's something for them to actually bond over here. They're both feeling unattractive and a lack of, of self confidence. So there's something to connect with over here. Okay, going back to him saying, like, I'm gonna treat you differently because I'm.

Upset. What does that.

Mean? Yeah, I think that I'm unclear on what that means. They need to have a separate conversation of how do we handle disappointment in the moment. I think it sounds like they probably should give each other a little bit of space that he needs to go off on his own and like, self soothe, calm himself down down. Then they can come back together and try to do something bonding and connecting. But I don't think it's okay to say I'm gonna treat you.

Like. Is that like, I'm gonna like, oh, well, if I'm upset, then I'm gonna be a dick to you? Like, is that what you're trying. Because I think that. Yeah, it's like, if he had a moment to think about that, like, I, I would. If I were talking to him, I would push him on this. I'd be like, so what is it that you are trying to say here? Okay, well, when I'm feeling. Are you saying that when you say no to having sex with me, then I'm allowed to what? Like I'm allowed to call you names? I'm allowed to like, be a dick. I'm allowed to like, get sarcastic or whatever. Like, I think it's. If you actually have someone spell out what it is they're trying to say. Very often you would realize, oh, yeah, that's not really what I'm trying to say. I don't feel. I don't want to. I don't feel right saying to my partner that, oh, yeah, if you do X, Y and Z, then I'm allowed to do all these things or act in a certain way. You. You quickly realize, oh, yeah, no, I. I don't really want to be. I don't really want to be giving myself permission to do that in any.

Situation. Okay. She says, I understand not feeling attractive because I'm in that boat. Great. I just really don't know what to do. We keep saying the same things and I don't know how to go.

Forward. I don't know. I'm going to get upset sometimes. Just like you would if you asked to cuddle and I said no most of the.

Time. If I found some relevant podcasts, would you.

Listen? Oh, I know it's.

Coming. Oh, I see our. I see our.

Podcast. Sure. I just don't want you to think I need you to say yes if you don't want to. I'd like you to say yes more because I love our sex, but I wanted you to be into it. Just sometimes that means you are going to be saying no when I might need it more than just want.

It. Okay, I like that. I like that she redirected the podcast. I like that he said yes. I don't. I'm not okay with this, like, differentiating between needing sex and wanting it. Sex is never an actual need. Like, it's not dying. Yeah, nobody's dying from not having sex. Like, it's very, very important. It's a part of a relationship. But I'm a little confused by that statement. And I don't love him saying like, yeah, they're. I'm gonna be more upset in the times when I need.

It. Yeah. If I was talking to him, I would wanna really drill down on that and be like, think back to the last time you felt like you needed.

It.

What. What was under. What was under that? Like, what. What else was coming up for you? Was it that, oh, I had a really shitty day and I had a lot of negative self talk and I was feeling like I was really unattractive and I wasn't sure if my partner wanted me? That is very different from, like, oh, I had this unsatiable physical need. Like, I. Where, like, I just was thinking about sex 100% of the time all day. Like, I doubt that that Was that really. He's just feeling really down about himself. He's feeling really undesirable or unwanted. And so he pivoted into, ah, I know it will fix that sex. But in reality, it's like, you know, hey, is there a way for me to come home to my partner and be like, man, I had a really shit day. I had a lot of, you know, I was. I looked in the mirror and I wasn't happy with what I saw, and I was feeling really down about myself. Like, sharing that type of vulnerability with your partner that your partner is gonna, like, be like, oh, my God. Like, I. I think, you know, if they hear that and be like, oh, man, that sounds so tough. Like, hey, I. I think you're super attractive. Or like, hey, like, let me cuddle you. Let me, you know, like, let me help you try to help you feel better about that. That is actually going to be the emotional connection that your partner wants. That's going to make her feel much closer to you and actually feel more open to having sex with. With you, rather than you being like, I'm feeling really down about myself. The only way for me to feel better is for my partner to say yes to sex, which she's unlikely to do. Yeah, that's. That's really.

Tough. Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna wrap this conversation up here. Lots of. Lots of lessons learned along this conversation. But I think that, like, one other thing that's coming to mind is I think that she needs to do some initiating.

Too.

Yes. It's a big misconception that. That only the one who's turned on needs to initiate. Like, we need. Everybody needs to initiate. We have plenty of other podcast episodes about that if you want to learn more about initiation. But I think that would really help, too, if he's not the only one being put in that.

Vulnerability. Yeah. I think she kind of mentioned because of the meds, that for her, it felt helpful for him to be doing the initiation because her sex drive is lower. But I think that actually, yeah, you want to flip that around and not say that she needs to be doing all the initiation. But. But I think that, you know, we talk about this a lot of finding ways to. Finding ways to realize that initiating sex doesn't have to be, I'm initiating sex because I'm wildly horny. It's. It's that, you know, hey, I am. I want to initiate some closeness with you. I want to initiate an opportunity for me to get more in the mood. What do I need to get more in the mood. Is it some emotional connection? Is it some combination of emotional connection and maybe some physical touch? Something that's maybe gonna start giving me something to respond positively to? So, yeah, I think that that would be so, so huge, because also, that's gonna help him feel wanted and needed.

Too. All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening, and join us again next week. We release new episodes every.

Thursday.