E250: What Do Men Really Think About…? Part 4 (Heated Rivalry, mental load + areolas)

What do men think about women being submissive in the bedroom? Do men want women to take more control? What do men think about the couch potato outfit/vibe? Do they hate the baggy sweats and messy hair? Why do men take so long to poop? How do men feel about their partner being the breadwinner? That's a big one. How do guys feel about heated rivalry and seeing gay sex on the screen? So we just watched this couple of weeks ago, I just answer for yourself first. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Morin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back with part 4 of one of, I must say, our most popular series we have ever done on the podcast.

Yeah, one of our longest running series.

What do men really think about? Well, actually, it's really what does Xander really think about?

So really, it's no surprise that this is one of our most popular and longest running segments because it's all about me.

We started with episode 56. We also did episode 69 and 213 were all previous episodes of What Do Men Really Want? You guys are always asking us for more of them. So we decided to bring it back. And today we are covering some hot topics like Well, we're covering some current pop culture heated rivalry, maybe. Yes. We're talking about pooping, maybe a little mental load. Maybe a little bit of being submissive in the bedroom. We've got a lot of, we actually had a list of, oh my gosh, this is probably like 30 or 40 different questions in front of us that women were desperate to know the answer about. So we definitely have enough for a part 5, but I'm kind of going through this list and just picking what are the ones that, I want to hear about today.

Also, apologies in advance if you can hear a little bit of background noise. Our house is under construction. It is kind of a nonstop ordeal. It is. We've gotten to the point where it's just not possible anymore to record the podcast around the, around the times that construction will be loud. So there's a little bit of sawing every now and then in the background. We've done our best to mask it, but bear with us. Hopefully I'm entertaining enough to keep you listening.

I also want to say before we get into the questions, you know, our hope with the podcast is always that it opens up conversations between partners. Like, you know, we want to be entertaining and give you guys something fun to listen to, but ultimately we want you to be able to talk with your partner about these dynamics. And I think these kinds of episodes are really great ones because, you know, we're always careful to say, hey, we're talking to one dude right now. This is one dude, and like, yes, you know, he can, he can tell us what he thinks other guys know, but of course, like, I hear from a lot of other men.

You know, there's my perspective and there's also the perspective that we get in the position we are with a large email list, a large Instagram social following, TikTok, we get so many DMs from people, so many comments from people. So I have a good idea of what a lot of guys think in addition to just myself.

Yeah, but of course, like, not everybody is gonna agree with Xander. So I think these are really fun episodes to listen to with your partner. You can pause the episode right after I read a question and ask your partner, like, what do you think about this? And then listen to Xander's answer. Or you can listen to Xander's answer first and ask your partner, like, do you agree with Xander? Do you disagree with him? Because ultimately, like, what your partner thinks is what matters most. And I think it's just a fun way to open up some conversations that maybe you might not otherwise have had.

Yeah, yeah. And hey, I love that game of listen to the question, pause, both of you say what you think, and then come back and see what we think. Honestly, that's how we got to the point of wanting to start our own podcast. We used to do that for years and years and years listening to various relationship podcasts, you know, kind of Q&A type of things where you hear somebody's question. And, you know, of course, like, we were fascinated by this content area because it's the business that we are in. And we would do that and we would talk about it. And then pretty soon we were like, man, like, we can go off on these for a while. We feel pretty good about it. Maybe we should do this ourselves.

Yeah. Shout out to Dan Savage and the Savage Lovecast. That was a really primary one.

Formative.

Man, that man has been doing that podcast a long time. Massive respect for him. Okay. So let's get into to these questions. And I wanted to start with our pop culture one. I saw this one on the list and I was like, let's talk about it. How do guys feel about Heated Rivalry and seeing gay sex on the screen? So we just watched this a couple weeks ago. Just answer for yourself first. First, I'm curious, like, what was the experience of watching Heated Rivalry? If you haven't heard about this show, it's like become a huge cultural phenomenon over the last couple of months. It's based on a book series. It's about two hockey players 2 male hockey players, closeted male hockey players, fall in love, have a lot of sex on screen, a lot of tension.

There's a lot of secrets.

Yeah. Okay. So as a straight man, what was it like for you watching gay sex on the screen?

Well, personally, I have no problem with it. I, for me, it took a couple episodes for the heated rivalry to really heat up. Um, what are you talking about?

Well, no, no, they're fucking in the first episode.

No, no, they absolutely are, they absolutely are. Um, but for me to like kind of like emotionally get on board, I feel like the first two episodes were a little like they just like really rushed through like many years of like establishing the story and the rivalry and what was going on. And I was kind of like, I didn't feel any like emotional connection really to either of the characters yet. It wasn't until episode 3 where I was I'm like, all right, I'm in, I'm in. It got really good. Um, so for anyone that is kind of struggling and like, oh, this just seems like a lot of sex and I'm confused about the timeline, stick with it, stick with it. Episode 3, I think, 3 or 4. Yeah, yeah, it really, it really, uh, hooks you in. But, um, yeah, I don't personally— yeah, I, I don't have a problem with this. I've had gay friends for as long as I can remember. I've been like— we've been very close to you know, to a lot of men who love other men. And it's not foreign for me to see men giving each other affection. So it's not something that—

I don't think people are talking about the affection. I think they're talking about the fucking.

Okay. Well, yes, maybe I haven't been privy to a lot of fucking, but I mean, love is love.

Wait, hold on.

Maybe.

Wait, wait. Did you just say maybe?

I mean—

Maybe you haven't watched our friends fuck their gay lovers?

No, I— Not directly, but I mean, look, to be fair—

What are you talking about?

To be fair, Vanessa, to be fair, Vanessa, we lived in Berlin for 2 and a half years. We've seen some shit.

Okay. All right. True.

We've seen some shit. And honestly, I've seen more shit than you because one of our really close friends, he's a big DJ and now a and now does scoring for huge, huge TV shows and movies. We love him. He DJ'd at one of the biggest, like most famous gay sex parties in the world.

And I was not—

while we were in Berlin, Vanessa was not invited because Vanessa would not be allowed in. It's men only. And so, yeah, like our whole friend group in Berlin went and, you know, it was a, it was a mix of straight and bi men in our group. And I was one of the straight ones, in case anyone's wondering. And yeah, I mean, it's a— it wasn't like it wasn't like out of the ordinary. We lived in Berlin a lot. There's a lot of mixed parties where it's like there's a lot of, a lot of gay community, a lot of straight community, just people that love electronic music. And so you see stuff. It's just part of it. It's something that I'm very comfortable with.

I want to challenge you a little bit on this one, though, because what we very, we very, very frequently hear from women, that women love watching women-on-women porn. Like, straight women really get turned on by watching female-only porn. And sometimes that can feel confusing to women of like, I'm pretty sure I'm like very straight, you know, I've really thought about it, I'm very straight, but like I get turned on watching women together. And I think that there is a way that, you know, our culture gives a lot more permission for women to explore with other women. Like, You know, I've— everyone I— every girlfriend I know is like, we've all made out with each other, right? And there's not a like, oh my God, you know, what's going on there? Whereas men don't— like, men have so much stricter— have much stricter rules that our society places on them. The idea of being gay, like, for a man is seen as a much more negative thing, unfortunately. Like, to be totally clear, like, we completely disagree with this, but I'm talking about like what culture in general tends to— the message that men tend to get is like, oh no, no, you're not like making out with your dude friends, you're not like watching gay porn. But I just, yeah, I wonder how much of that is just the straight-up socialization versus if you didn't grow up with that socialization, could you appreciate like, yeah, okay, I'm watching a sex scene that I wouldn't necessarily want to imagine myself as one of those characters, but I can still appreciate the hotness of it. Like, I'll say for me, I'm watching two gay men have sex. I'm not a part of, you know, I'm not a part of this scene in any way, but I'm super turned on watching this. Like, so do you think, yeah, could you be, could you be turned on watching it even though it's not a scenario that you personally would want to be a part of?

Yeah, I mean, to be totally honest, I did not find myself turned on watching heated rivalry?

Not at all.

Not really. No. Like, damn, I, I hate to say it. I mean, I've— I feel pretty comfortable with my sexuality because I've— hey, in college, uh, I played a couple— I played a couple games of, uh, spin the bottle with, uh, a sort of a pansexual spin the bottle, so to speak. And, um, I have— I have kissed a couple, a couple of my gay friends, and it was not a good experience for any of us. It was one of those things where both of us, like, like I had a really, I had a really close friend in college who I also DJ'd with who was gay. And I remember it was like we were playing spin the bottle and we got each other and was like, all right, we're going to do it. And it was like after a couple of seconds, we were both like, nope, nope, not for me, not for me. And he's like, yeah, you're so straight. This is not, this is not working on. So, you know, it's kind of just like, it's not for me. And it's also like, I can appreciate it. Like, it's hot for— I can watch it being like, hey, that's hot for them. I can see that they're both enjoying this.

But there was no element of like, yeah.

No, not really.

But do you think that's socialization? Just that you—

It might be. It very well might be. I feel like it's so hard to say. I don't know. Wait, but let me just say one other thing. It's not like I watched that and was disgusted. Like, I would very happily go have sex with you right after watching any of those episodes. Like, it's not like you weren't turned off. No, no, I wasn't. I wasn't turned off. Yeah. No, I wasn't.

Okay. I want to go, though, to what you think about the average man, because I think you're very progressive in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to sexuality. What do you think? How do you think the average man would respond to heated rivalry?

I think the average man is not seeking out heated rivalry and is not going to be stoked on watching it.

Yeah, it's really interesting for me to imagine that as a woman because I can watch a sex scene between any people, anybody, any combination of, you know, consenting adults, um, any combination of people, orientations, sexualities, you know, whatever, like, and see that as like being sexy. Even again, if I'm not like— I can't see myself being a part of that, I wouldn't want to do that, that's not— I am not being depicted in that in any way, it's still just like It's sex. Attractive people having sex. That's hot.

Well, you said it in an interesting way. Like it— I agree with you. It is sexy, but it's not necessarily giving me sexual satisfaction. I'm not like, oh, you know, like I'm not about to get hard. I'm not like, I'm not like, oh yeah, I want to be in that scene.

I'm not thinking I want to be in that scene, but I can appreciate it and think like, I want to go have sex with you now.

Well, yeah, I want to have sex with you. I always want to have sex with you. I'm— yeah, no, I mean, it's— yeah, I don't know. It's some weird middle ground where I'm like, I can appreciate the sexiness of it for them.

Okay.

But I'm not finding myself— I didn't find myself thinking back or fantasizing about any of those sex scenes.

Yeah, fair. Okay. Well, I think to me, I think that this is a— it's a great litmus test for men. Like, can they just watch this show comfortably and not make a thing about it?

I think you appreciate it for what it is.

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Oh, man. I wish I— I wish there was an easy answer to this question. I— this is a not data-backed perspective, but I feel like— I feel like men are a little more cavalier with what they eat.

And this is not the direction I was expecting you.

And I do feel like just from who I talk to about, you know, the way men versus women talk about pooping and their stomach and digestion, I feel like men just generally have worse poops than women or kind of just like let it rip a little more when it comes to like eating stuff that maybe they know is going to bother them later on and just don't care. But I think also part of that is that there's a lot of stereotypes of like men taking forever to poop. And so men are like, okay, yeah, I can take forever to poop, whatever, no big deal. But I do think that part of it is mency. It is a nice break. Oh, I'm going to get on my phone.

I'm against that.

Well, back in the day before phones, it was, I'm going to read the book. I'm going to read a book. I'm going to read the newspaper. Nowadays it's like, I'm going to watch a little video. I'm going to catch up on social media, whatever. Whereas when I hear you talk about like going to the bathroom and like like when I hear you and/or other women talk about these, like, unspoken rules that women have in public bathrooms of like, no two women can poop at the same time in a public bathroom. I'm like, well, with that kind of socialization, with that kind of shame, like, of course you're going to go as fast as you fucking can. Whereas I'm like, yeah, I'm like in private in this bathroom. So what if there's two guys on either side of me? Like, I'm gonna let her rip. It is what it is. Yeah.

Okay. But I do think, yeah, a lot of it is just, it's a lot more about the taking a break aspect of it.

Yeah. Instead of being ashamed, like, oh God, I got to poop again. I better do this quick and silently. It's like, yeah, I have to poop. I might as well take a little break at the same time.

But I think that's what feels really frustrating for, I'll say a lot of women in particular, It's a very long time, and I think a lot of women feel like they don't get opportunities to take long breaks like that. And we often hear from women like that it ends up being really inconveniently timed. Like, you know, it's bedtime for the kids, or we have to leave the house in 5 minutes, or, you know, the dogs are going nuts, or, you know, whatever it is. And it's like the guy will choose that time to go to the bathroom. Do you think there's some, I don't know, I guess I think sometimes women might feel like there's a little bit of passive aggression, passive aggressiveness in it.

Yeah. I don't know. I have a pretty regular schedule, which I appreciate. So for me, I'm, yeah, I don't—

Apparently Xander needs to make a gut health for men course.

I don't know. I'm working on my gut health still. I wouldn't say I have it together necessarily. No, I mean, I used to, I used to be like, I used to have like no regularity. And it's, it's not fun when it's like at any moment, like, oh God, now I got to go. This is not a good time. I think that if you are finding yourself going at all hours with no predictability, that's probably something to look at with your doctor because you should be fairly regular. I think the ideal scenario is that you're pooping like almost first thing in the morning. And that's definitely achievable with a little bit of help. So I would highly recommend that. I don't know. I can't really speak to the passive aggressiveness of it.

Well, maybe not passive aggressive is not the right word, but just not thoughtful.

Yeah. I mean, I think that that's worth a conversation in your household about what is reasonable. And I think also that maybe women could also stand to learn a thing or two from men about like taking that break.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that aspect.

Like, I get that. But yeah, what doesn't feel fair is, is, you know, women operating from a place of general shame around going to the bathroom. Oh, it's gross. Women aren't supposed to poop, even though we have to poop every day. You know, it's got to be quiet. It's got to be not smelly. It's got to be quick, blah, blah, blah. Like, get in, get out. And then using that as this is how it should be for everyone. I don't think it's fair to be like, yeah, I'm super ashamed of this thing that I do and therefore I do it quickly and so then everyone should also feel, everyone else should operate in that way.

I don't think that that's the dynamic that comes up for women. Like women have different rules about like being in public restrooms, but at home I don't think it's about a sense of shame. I think the frustration is about the amount of time that it takes and the timing of the bathroom breaks.

Well, I mean, I do hear you being like, oh, well, Well, it takes me like 30 seconds to a minute. Like, why can't you do that? And I just can't. That's not how it works for me. It's just not.

Well, also there are genuine concerns about spending that long in the bathroom. You know, we have research showing like you really shouldn't be spending longer than 5 minutes sitting on the toilet because it can prevent hemorrhoids. So there's that element of it as well. But yeah, I do think it's worth, I think it's worth couples having a conversation about how do we make the space for each other to take breaks? Yeah. That like life is busy and chaotic, especially if you have kids and like you just need a little bit of like time to yourself every once in a while. How do you guys each make the space for that and support each other in that? Because ultimately I think taking your break in the bathroom, sitting on the toilet.

It's less than ideal.

The smell of your own shit. Like that's not a great break.

No, it's not.

It's not good for your body to be sitting that long. So I think, yeah, how can we support each other in having little mental health breaks throughout the day?

Yeah. So maybe instead of being like, Dude, you take so fucking long. It's so inconvenient. How dare you? Maybe try to open up the conversation of, hey, let's talk about how we support each other in having some breaks. Because I know that often when you go to the bathroom, it seems like that's sort of what you're doing. And it might actually just be healthier if we both figure out how do we both get each other the breaks that we need so that going to the bathroom can just be an efficient process since it's not a scheduled process.

Yeah.

And unpredictable. So since it's unpredictable.

Okay, so since we're on the bathroom talk, let's just continue. One woman asked, is it uncomfortable to sit down to pee? And my guess is that the real thing behind this question is like, I would greatly prefer my man to sit down to pee so he doesn't make a mess all over the freaking bathroom. And but why the fuck is he not doing this?

It's not uncomfortable physically. Um, I think that it's I feel like when I sit down to pee, it kind of, it comes out a little bit slower because of the way you're kind of like pushing your, pushing everything downward. And I think that it kind of, I don't know, it just feels like more efficient and like, yeah, let me just get this out as quickly as I can standing up. But I think this one is just such a socialization thing. I've been peeing standing up forever. It sort of just goes hand in hand with my gender identity. And so yeah, it does feel kind of like, yeah, why would I sit down when I could stand up?

All right. Fair enough. Okay. This one was interestingly worded. She wrote, do men believe in mental load? And I just want to rephrase the question right from the get-go. Because mental load is not something that you believe in or don't believe in, like do you believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus? Like mental load is a very real thing. We've done some episodes about it if you want to get into it more. One of our very first episodes, I think it was number 4, is about mental load. But essentially mental load is the invisible mental labor that goes into running a household. So we have chores and responsibilities that we have to do, but behind each of those tasks there's also an incredible amount of mental load. So it's not just the task of somebody has to go grocery shopping. It's also needing to remember that the grocery shopping has to be done on Friday this week because you committed to baking cookies on Saturday and the kids won't eat that brand of cereal anymore. So you have to get this brand of cereal and don't forget to get toilet paper when you go to the store because we're just about out. It's like all these little details that you're constantly thinking of and running through. So it's like, it's anticipating things that need to get done planning for them to get done, identifying different ways for them to get done, choosing the best option, evaluating the work afterwards. Like, there's so much. And we have research showing that in male-female relationships, women carry the vast majority of mental load. And we are starting to recognize more and more these days the impacts of all that mental load, that not only is it exhausting, but it's also impacting our desire It's impacting our emotional connection with our partner. So it's a really serious thing. So yeah, this is not the same thing as a Santa Claus kind of thing, but I'm guessing that what she's getting at, I mean, reading between the lines, my guess is that she has a partner who really doesn't understand mental load and doesn't think it's a thing. So maybe let's get more general and turn the question into like, what do you think men think about mental load?

I think that there's a whole variety of viewpoints on this. And unfortunately, in this day and age, I do think that there's also some almost like politicization. Oh my God.

You got it, babe.

Oh my God. What?

Politicization?

Politicization. It just didn't sound right coming out. I think that there's also some almost like politicization or polarization around this concept in terms of, in terms of how you view gender roles in a marriage. And unfortunately, gender roles in a marriage in this day and age are somewhat— expectations are somewhat different based on your social or political views. So So yeah, I mean, I do think that there are, there are many men who feel like, you know, hey, a man's role in a household is to be the financial provider, the pro— you know, the financial/stability provider, to be out at work, you know, like, oh, you know, I'm kind of hearkening back to the hunter-gatherer days, like he's the hunter, she's the gatherer, right? He's out at work, he's making money, she's at home gathering, making the house nice, etc. And that's what the arrangement is. And I think that if you are both— I think how you feel about mental load really ultimately boils down to how you view your marriage. Is it an arrangement to provide, you know, one person provides stability, the other person provides comfort? Is it a— is it something else? Is it, hey, we're best friends who love each other and care about each other and want to just— and, you know, the marriage is about— it's about love, and, um, it's not about like an arrangement of I do— I do X, you do Y, and that's that. I hate to say it, but I think that if a man just really truly believes that he is in sort of an arranged, a marriage with a specific type of arrangement, he's not going to believe in mental load. He's not really going to hear you. He's just going to say, "Hey, I'm holding up my end of the bargain. This is what I do. You got to hold up your end of the bargain." So I think that you're kind of barking up the wrong tree trying to be like, "Hey, mental load is a thing," if the real problem is you have different conceptions of what the arrangement of your marriage is. Now, I do think that many couples do not have differing perceptions of what the arrangement of their marriage is, but haven't really— just haven't really talked that much about how the roles and responsibilities are actually delineated. And a lot of men haven't really understood the ways that we have been socialized to operate in a household and in a relationship versus the ways that women have been socialized to operate. And I think that once men can start to better understand, "Oh, she has been socialized to pick up the slack everywhere by default to do things. Oh yeah. Oh, there's a birthday party coming up. Oh yeah, of course my wife is going to get the present. Christmas is coming up. Yeah, of course she's doing the shopping." That's what she does. And I think it's like we've gotten to this point in relationships where, you know, kind of these socialized gender roles just sort of kick in from the very beginning. And without realizing it, we get to a point where it's like she's doing a bunch of stuff that he's not really even seeing or understanding. And especially when you layer in having kids and then there's this whole, you know, the whole idea of like the default parent being the woman typically where it's like she's just expected by default to do all these things without being asked. Whereas he is kind of sitting around being like, oh, you want me to feed the baby? Well, you got to ask me. Or you want me to get the whatever? Oh, just ask me. My recommendation would be to try to broach the topic rather than being like, hey dude, there's this thing called mental load and you got to figure it out. Rather talking like, hey, so I'm starting to realize that I'm doing a lot of stuff by default in our relationship, and I don't love the way that that feels. And I would like us to do a better job of being more partners in that regard and start talking about these are the things that I just do without being asked or because I expect or I think that you expect them of me. Let's talk about these and figure out should Should you be doing some of them? What should I be doing? Should I not be doing some of these things? Because a lot of it too is like a lot of women just start doing things because they think they're supposed to do it. No one ever asked them to do it that way, doing it maybe to a standard or doing it in a certain way that takes a certain amount of time that no one actually cares about that much. So I think it's just, yeah, it's like broaching the conversation of like, here's all these things that I realize that I'm doing. I've maybe been doing for a long time, but do you even care about this? Can we put it all on the table and talk about what the expectations actually are?

I think that the best way to introduce mental load to your partner, and especially if maybe you've tried it in the past and they've seemed resistant, is to share with them research shows that couples who share household chores and mental load equitably, and that doesn't mean 50/50. Yes. In a way that feels fair to both of you in your unique situation. But relationships where chores and mental load and responsibilities are shared equitably, those couples have way more sex than couples that don't share it.

Yeah. And I think also—

Way more sex.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you are the woman who is feeling like she has an unfair amount of the mental load, I'm assuming that that mental load probably has a big impact on your sex drive, your ability to even start to be able to think about sex. If you have a list of things a mile long and it's 6:00 PM and your partner initiates sex with you and you're like, wait, there's like 10 other things to do. Like, I can't even, like my brain can't even compute sex right now. That is another really great way to start sharing, hey, I am starting to realize that when I have all these things on my mental to-do list, it is really hard for me to get into the mood when you initiate sex. And I don't want to be in a situation where I'm constantly turning you down or constantly feeling like, God, why can't he see that I have all these other things to do? So how can we work as a team to better tackle the to-do list? Because If we can do that, then I am going to be so much more amenable to, to being open to having more sex with you.

All right. Our next question. What do men think about the couch potato outfit/vibe? Do they hate the baggy sweats and messy hair?

I don't think so. I don't think so.

How do you feel when I'm wearing You've got a whole— Your sweatshirts and baggy sweatpants and my hair up in a disgusting unwashed bun.

In some ways it's kind of cute and sweet. And I will say you have a pretty wide array of lounging attire. I do. You have a pretty wide array and you have some real like sexy but seemingly comfortable lounging attire.

I've been trying to upgrade my lounge attire lately. I'm glad you've noticed.

And yeah, and I don't know. I think that I like, I've, yeah, I too am aware of, yeah, I could wear some really grubby stuff and I'm like, when I wear the super grubby stuff, like I also like don't feel as good about myself as when I'm like, yeah, I've like taken a shower. My hair is kind of kempt, not unkempt.

Wow.

It's not unkempt. I don't know if anyone even says that. My hair is not unkempt. I don't know. I feel like there are small things that we can do to look semi-presentable. I'm not trying to say we have to look good all the time at all. But yeah, I mean, I think I'm also aware of like, yeah, I should upgrade some of my lounge attire too. It's not always the most appealing for you too.

Okay. But what about when I'm like really in the worst of the worst? Like I'm wearing your sweatpants and your sweatshirt, like there's no glimpse of my body happening.

Well, the moment I take that shit off of you, you look like you do when you're naked. So it really— I mean, I find you extremely attractive. I love you. I think that you're the hottest person in the world.

In the world? Wow. Aggressive.

For me. For me, you are.

Um, thank you.

So yeah, I'm— I, I don't ever find myself unattracted to you.

What if I've been wearing the gross sweats for like a week straight?

Okay, maybe it's worth discussing. Hey, what's going on? I see that you've been in the sweats nonstop for a week. How are you doing? Like, you know, can I support you?

In getting dressed. Okay, so it's not something that necessarily bothers you, but I mean, do you greatly prefer me to be in a cute outfit?

I don't mind it.

Do you prefer it?

I don't know. That's a good— because at the same time, this is weird, but at the same time, if you are always looking super cute, then I'm going to be like, ooh, I better up my game. Like I'm not— like I can't be wearing the disgusting loungewear too.

Could this be a hack if you want your partner to upgrade their look? Just start like—

Upgrade yours?

Upgrade yours.

Maybe. Maybe. I mean, like within reason, like, you know, not going to start wearing like suits around the house or something.

But interesting.

Possibly. I don't know. I think this one feels like a very unique conversation for your relationship to have.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. I mean, do you feel more attracted to me when I'm wearing an attractive outfit versus a schlubby outfit?

I feel most attracted to you when you're naked.

Okay, well, second most attracted to me.

Um, yeah, I guess I do. But I don't feel unattracted to you ever. So it's— I want to be really careful with what I'm saying because I know how it can sound if I'm saying, oh yeah, no, I am more attracted to you and you're wearing a, like, a nice outfit. I worry that so many people will hear that as Well, then you need to wear a nice outfit because I'm unattracted to you when you don't.

Okay, so you're saying you're—

I think that's some girl logic.

You're not— yeah, it is girl logic. You're not unattracted to me wearing a schlubby outfit, but you appreciate the cute outfit.

Yeah.

And I'm guessing it's probably more about the confidence because, like, I don't feel confident wearing a schlubby outfit. I'm, I'm going for just cozy, or sometimes I'm not feeling good about myself and that's why I'm wearing the schlubby outfit. But if I'm making the effort to get myself dressed, to put together something cute, like that's usually a sign that I'm feeling myself.

Yeah, I definitely feel better about myself when I'm like, I look good in this outfit.

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This is a big one. Um, I know from experience because we did this for a short period of time in our relationship. I sure as hell thought I was gonna feel good about it, and I absolutely did not feel good about Yeah. This is a very real thing where you have to experience it to really know how you feel about it.

So the quick backstory in our relationship is that early in our relationship, well, we both had jobs and then— And you made way more money than I did. And then once we moved into a house together, I went back to grad school.

Yeah. Then I was mostly sole breadwinner. You made a little bit of money on the side.

I made a little bit of money, but you were like, I can take care of our finances so you can really focus on grad school and trying to like get through your hours and get your license as quickly as possible. So once I got licensed and I'd started building up my business a couple years later, and then we were moving to Berlin, which we talked about earlier.

I wanted to quit my job. I was miserable.

Yeah. So I said, hey, let me return the favor. You supported me for a few years financially. I can support you for a few years financially while you figure out what you want to do next.

Next.

And yeah, that, and it sounded fair and equitable on paper. Like I'm just returning the favor that you did first, but you really struggled with it.

Yeah. It definitely ate me up inside for a while. I mean, and honestly, I didn't really feel better about it until we started working together and I started doing some other work on the side and making more money and being a more, I won't say equal, I don't know at that point it was impossible to quantify, but being more of a contributor to our household. Yeah, I mean, it definitely got to the point where either I would've needed to really address that with myself, going to therapy probably, or do something about it in terms of start working again. I mean, I started to do some work again, because part of it was I didn't really have anything to do. This wasn't like a stay-at-home dad situation where I'm taking care of the kids all day long. I think that can be a very different scenario where it's like, "Hey, I'm not going to be contributing financially, but I'm going to be taking care of the kids full-time or taking care of the house." That's a very different thing. We were living in an apartment in Berlin. There wasn't I was taking care of the house, but there wasn't a lot. There wasn't that much to fill my time. And so, yeah, I could have been like, "Hey, I'm really struggling with this. I need to talk to somebody about figuring out what's coming up for me." But at the same time, I think what I also was realizing was, hey, I am not very happy when I don't feel like I have any direction in my life. Once I started having some direction and feeling some more purpose with work, then all of a sudden I was like, oh, I am way happier now. So I definitely think that this is something to discuss. But also this question is being the breadwinner. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's not working and she is. It might just mean she makes a hell of a lot more money or just a little more money. So yeah, this comes down to socialization because the way that we are socialized, the way we see this portrayed is that typically the man is either the sole financial provider or the majority financial provider. And yeah, even though the data out there does show men typically make more money than women, um, there are many households where that is not the case. And so yeah, I think that— I don't think it's a switch that you can flip where it's just like, bro, just be okay with it. Like, it is a deep-seated thing that has been socialized into us where it feels almost like, what is your worth if you are not providing financially? So yeah, I do think that that is not something to take lightly where it's just like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to be the breadwinner, you deal with it." I think that's something where it merits a lot of discussions. It merits potentially talking about getting some support for the guy in terms of therapy to talk through it, because this shit gets in really deep, at least in American society. So yeah, I think that is a very real thing that isn't just a like, hey buddy, like, learn to deal with it, but like, get some help and talk, talk through it. Because the crazy thing when I look back at it is like, I felt so worthless. Like, even though we were living in Berlin, we were renting out our we were renting out our condo in San Francisco, and that was basically covering our mortgage and our rent in Berlin. So I was, and I was, you know, the majority owner of that house in terms of like how we had bought it. And so even still, like, even with all of that, like, you know, I think that if I had gone to therapy and started to talk it out, I would have started to unravel like, oh, like I am contributing in a very real way. Whether or not I am getting a paycheck every 2 weeks. But, but even though all that stuff was happening, like, it just like, it didn't really, it didn't really occur to me that I was contributing in a certain way. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a real thing.

Okay. Next question. What do men think about women being submissive in the bedroom? Do men want women to take more control?

Again, this is such a— I think that there's a lot of this. This one is— I don't think there's any right or wrong answer. This is such a personal, person-by-person thing that this is, I think, one of the very good reasons to have sex before marriage and to have sex early on in a relationship to figure out what is the sex like, what are the vibes between us? Are we compatible in terms of the energy that we want to show up with, in terms of how submissive or dominant one or the other is, or how fluid that dynamic is? Because this is a real, real thing. Um, and I think a lot of people get into trouble with this because they don't experience that until much later in the relationship. And at that point, it feels like, oh well, we're already so locked in and committed, but we can't like overcome these differences in terms of the type of sex that we want to have or how we show And I mean, ultimately, like, sex is one of the— one of, if not the most major thing that differentiates a friendship from a relationship. So we got to give that the respect it deserves. I think there's, there's probably a small subset of men that do genuinely really want a submissive woman 100% of the time, a very small percentage. Then I think there's probably a larger group that would like a woman who is relative often a bit more submissive but is able to be a bit more dominant, dominant occasionally. Then I think there's probably another like equally sized group that is like, you know, hey, I kind of want like something in the more like 50/50, 60/40. Range when it comes to that. And then there's probably a— then again, another smaller subset of men that are like, yeah, no, I, I want a generally more dominant woman sexually. So again, I think this is something that is— you gotta suss out, figure out via discussion and experience early on in a relationship to make sure that there— you guys have a balance that actually feels good to both of you.

Well, I'm guessing there's also, also the question of like, let's, let's not talk about the different extremes of it, but do you think like the average man wishes that his female partner was more active in the bedroom?

Absolutely, yes. And I think it also, like, being a little more active, being a little more dominant, I think these are also proxies for confidence. Hmm.

Say more.

Like, I think that men, most men would love to see their partner feel and project more confidence in the bedroom. And I think that one of the main ways to do that is to take a little bit more control. Not all the time, but sometimes. And so I think that's— I think that men, most men are not like— if you go, if you stop a guy in the street and you're like, hey, what's the biggest problem in your sex life? Most men are not going to be able to put their finger immediately on, I wish that she was more confident. Or if you're having a conversation with your partner, he's not going to be like, Hey, I would love you to just be more confident in the bedroom because that's an empty request. How do you just become more confident? But I think a lot of men would, when they say, oh yeah, I'd like for you to take control a little more sometimes, what's underneath that is probably they're looking for someone that projects some more confidence.

Well, what does it feel like as a man though when it feels like your partner is not taking control, not engaged, like when it feels like it's on your shoulders then?

Yeah, I mean, it just feels like it's all on me and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm, I'm responsible for this. This is about me. It's not about her. It's not about us. And it's like, okay, I got to— I got to somehow make this enjoyable for me and also enjoyable for her. But I'm not really sure if it's enjoyable for her because she's not really like giving me a lot of feedback. And yeah, it just, it doesn't feel like a co-created experience. It feels like something you're doing for you. And I think this gets at, I think, one of the base fears that most men have in long-term relationships, which is, is my partner actually into having sex with me? Sure seemed like it at the beginning of our relationship, but I am really not sure. Is sex just for me or is it Is it for us? I think that's one of the biggest underlying fears that men have in long-term relationships. And when a woman is just kind of letting it happen, it plays into that fear of, oh yeah, no, this is just for you. It's not really for me.

Okay. Do men care about going down on us if we haven't showered that day?

I think most men— there, there are the men that have some shitty socialization around going down on women that are like, oh, it stinks, it smells, blah blah, like probably making the bad jokes about like bad names for genitalia that have to do with stinky things, which is super shitty. And those men aren't really gonna like going down on you at any point in time, whether you've showered or not. Um, I think that men, good men that enjoy oral sex because they've been fantasizing about that genitalia and about doing that since they were about 13 years old, don't give a shit. They just want to get their face in there.

I mean, I want to be like—

but to be clear, like, there's a—

yeah, there's like a within reason.

There's a within reason here. Like, yeah, I can, you know, I can have gone through the whole day and be like, I have no problem with you going down on me. But like, I don't know, if I like went to the gym yesterday, I didn't shower, I slept, I woke up, I went to the gym again, or I just went surfing or something and I like haven't showered, I'm like, this, this is not a— I'm not like gonna put my dick in your face. Like, I should clean up. So it's It's a within reason kind of thing, but the idea that like you need to have just showered in order for your partner to enjoy your vulva, no.

Yeah, yeah. I think the, you know, obviously as women we get a lot of socialization about our genitals, that they're icky and weird and smelly and taste bad and all that stuff. So like, of course we've grown up to feel really sensitive about that and, um, worried about that. And it's really fucking annoying that as men you don't get any of that.

Honestly, my experience with taste and smell is that that is much more impacted by where you are in your cycle than by like how many hours it's been since you showered. Like the vulva and vagina are self-cleaning. She takes care of herself. And yeah, I think that where you are in your cycle plays a much bigger role. In, in taste and smell than in like, yeah, the hours.

Yeah, so it's, it's an interesting middle ground because I think the idea that you have to, uh, you know, that you have to be like freshly showered immediately beforehand is really unhelpful. And also it just creates a real barrier to intimacy if it's not only like, oh, we have to find the time for sex, it's also like I have to find the time for a whole fucking shower. Like, that's ridiculous. But yeah, so like we don't need this idea that like you have to shower immediately before beforehand. And at the same time, like, yeah, let's also be realistic. Like if you've been working out, if you're doing hard manual labor, whatever it is, like, yeah, there is a basic level of hygiene and thoughtfulness that we want to have. But in general, I think the easiest thing to do is just get a baby wipe, like something that's one of those wipes that are just water wipes, no scents, no soaps, no nothing, just like a water wipe. And you can just wipe yourself down. Like that's easy peasy, really fast. Not a big deal. Okay, let's do one more question. Oh, I had 3 more that I wanted to ask you. So pick a number between 1 and 3.

3.

Okay. How do men feel about areolas? Do they even notice them?

I don't think so. I mean, in general.

Do you know what an areola is?

Yes, it is the area around the nipple.

Great. There you go.

Yeah. So I know that areolas can be different sizes and colors. Shades, I should say.

Yeah.

Colors means no one's like got a blue areola. Yeah. Different shades. I mean, to me it's just like it is what it is. Just like different women have different size breasts. Different women have different size nipples, different thickness of nipples, different size of areola. It is what it is. In general, I'm more focused on just the breast in general or the nipple itself, maybe. I don't know. It's just— yeah, I'm like, whoa, those are hairy. Oh, whoa. Like, it's honestly— men are so much more interested in the female body in general than any individual part. Like, yeah, it's just I feel like I say this every single time we do these episodes, but women, when they look at other women and who knows, I don't know, do you do this when you look at men? Like the way that you undress— I'm putting this in quotes— undress a woman in terms of like, oh, let's— how big are her boobs? Oh, does she have a belly pooch? Like, what about her love handles? Blah, blah, blah. Or like, how do I compare this part, this part, this part, this part? Well, I'm curious if you do that to men, but men do not do that. I've never heard a man be like, oh man, she's so hot, but her calf is weird. Like, if only that little— like that one love handle. Like, I've literally— things I've never heard a man say. It's like like, I think a man thinks in general about attractiveness of just the entire— the face and the entire body. It's like, it's a, it's a collective, it's a more meta thing. And it's— yeah, you can absolutely have body parts where it's like, yeah, it's fucking hot, banging ass. Um, but it's not like men are not like, oh yeah, okay, great ass, plus 5. Weird areolas, minus 3.

All right. Good to know.

Do you do that to men though? Because I know you do it to women. You women, not like—

Yeah, I know. I think women are much harder on each other than we are on men.

Because our bodies are a bit different or not so, you know, not quite as comparable.

Yeah.

Like different type of muscle tone and whatnot.

We compare our bodies to other women's bodies, but we can't compare our bodies to men's bodies. So I think in general, Yeah, we're much gentler on men's bodies than we are.

Interesting.

We are our own worst enemies, for sure.

I mean, men also do compare themselves to other men at times. It's definitely more of a like workout gym, like muscles thing, where it's like, oh man, those guys' biceps really pop. Mine don't quite look like that. Yeah, I don't think we do it in nearly as extreme a way as women do, but yeah, similarly, it's just we do not do that to women. So think about about how you look at a man, unless of course you do analyze him in gory detail. I can assure you men are not doing that. But yeah, assuming you look at a man and you're kind of like, okay, the collective, like, what do I think about this guy? Like, that's how he's looking at you.

All right, well, thank you, Xander, for speaking for all men. I did it once again. You did it. I hope this opens up some great conversations between you and your partner. And you can always DM us on Instagram, Vanessa and Xander, if you have a question that you want to ask Xander. We're also gonna do another like, what do women think about? So if you have a question for that, you can DM us too. All right, well, that is all for us today. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.