E264: What Women Really Think About Part 3

Yeah, we don't hear from a lot of women. We don't really hear from any women that are like, oh yeah, I just out of the blue randomly got sent a penis and that just made my day.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude.

We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back with part 3 of our What Do Women Really Think About... series. We have done 2 parts of this already, and we always turn to Instagram for this. We say, you know, this is the episode that we're doing. What topics, what questions do you want us to ask women about? Do you want to like hear the insight, like behind the scenes, of what women really think about certain topics? And it's wound up being a really popular topic. We keep getting asked for more episodes of it. We also have a What Do Men Really Think About, which is really just me speaking for all men.

So it's nice when, you know, the spotlight gets to go back to Vanessa, and Vanessa gets to be the woman who answers all female questions for all women.

Um, of course we have to give the caveat that these are just, you know, a lot of times what we're talking about are our opinions. We do talk a lot about these topics with our audience, so we like gather, you know, other thoughts and opinions. But of course this is not a like, you know, absolutely scientific breakdown of what every person ever believes. But I think these episodes are really helpful as conversation openers between couples. It's a great one to, you know, pause after we've read a question or a topic and talk to each other, assuming that you have a woman in your relationship. If you don't, maybe you're not super interested. But you can pause and ask like, yeah, what do you think about that? Or what do you think they're going to answer? And then the two of you have a conversation about it and then come back and press play and listen to what we have to say about it. So I think they can be really helpful in that way. So we are covering even more of the questions that we got from Instagram in this episode. I think we also have to say, like, we are, um, we're really recording this episode under the, under the wire, under the gun.

Under the gun. A lot of, uh, less than ideal.

What does under the gun mean?

That is a thing. Like someone's pointing a gun at you. I think it's like you're under the gun. It's like, like you're under a deadline, like under a deadline or something like that.

Like, But isn't under a gun actually a safe place to be? Like if it's just going to shoot over you?

They're pointing down at you. So you're both under it and in the line of fire, maybe?

I don't know.

We got to look that one up, but we can't. We don't have any internet because we don't have any power at our house. It's actually kind of incredible that we are still able to record this with batteries full on the laptop and on the cameras. I mean, we're gonna have to check throughout the episode to make sure we're not getting too—

We cannot make mistakes. We cannot have to redo any part. Like we just have to go for it. Cause I think our cameras, our phones are literally just gonna shut off at some point. They'll run out of battery completely.

Yeah, so will our external lighting.

Yeah, our lighting's gonna turn off completely. So we just have to get this episode.

We're under the gun. We're wasting time describing it.

We gotta go. It's been a day. It has been a day, but this is our dedication to you, dear listener. This is the only time this week we could record this episode and we're like, we gotta make it happen. We gotta make it happen. We're dedicated to Pillow Talks. Okay. So I think Xander, you're just gonna hit me with all the questions. Yeah.

I'm gonna hit you with it. All right. Let's, we're really good. You okay, girl?

That's just sounded, oh God. I spilled. That sounded really weird. I'm gonna hit you with it.

That is literally what you just said to me though. I just repeated what you said, but.

No, I said you're gonna hit me with the questions and then you said I'm gonna hit you with it. What are you gonna hit me with?

The first question, because this one is a big one. It's actually a really great segue talking about hitting you with it. This, I think, was written in by a man who wants to know what women think.

I think all of these are written by men.

Well, I think a lot of women also want to know what other women think about things. So I think we got to— with these, what do women think, I do think we got a mix. I think with what— when we do the what do men think about, I think it's mostly women writing in. But I think a lot of women like to know, am I doing what other women do? Am I aligned or misaligned?

Don't care about other men's opinions.

Um, I think they do, but they don't really like to come right out and ask about it, um, which, you know, might be a problem in and of itself. But speaking of hitting you with it, Book Boyfriends— do women really want us to act like that?

You can just imagine the poor man on the other end of this, like, well, we see a lot, we see a lot of this. I gotta say, whenever, when We have to back up though and describe what a book boyfriend is. So book boyfriend is a term that comes from the romance novel world.

The spicy romance novel world.

Spicy books. So spicy books have gotten very popular in the last few years, in particular like Romantasy book, A Court of Thorns and Roses from Sarah J. Maas. There's just tons of these books out there now. And so a lot of women, you'll grow attached to a certain character and you'll call him your book boyfriend. And like, you know, it's like you have a little crush on him. You really like the way that he is portrayed in the book, the things that he does, you know, throughout the plot. So you want him to be your book boyfriend. And I think a lot of women are using this term like kind of as a little joke, but I do think it's also masking a deeper desire too to really have a partner that's like this. And I have to say—

in some ways, right?

In some ways. I I'm a fan. Like, I loved everything Sarah J. Maas has written. I've read every single thing. I've loved it. At first I read it because it felt like a professional obligation because everybody was reading these, but I was surprised by how—

And you got sucked in.

I got really sucked in. And there was one, two particular characters that I really liked.

Who are your book boyfriends? I don't even know. We gotta talk about your boyfriends.

Okay. Cassian. From A Court of Thorns and Roses.

Oh, I remember that name.

Cassian. And Rowan from Throne of Glass. I would say Rowan is probably number one and Cassian's number two.

Okay. Should I be worried?

Okay, so here's the thing is I do think, I think there are, this is complicated. There are a lot of really incredible benefits to these books. A lot of women, I was just talking with a friend yesterday who was saying like, these books brought me back to life sexually, especially after becoming a mom. Like I just felt like I'd lost, that contact with myself, and now I feel more alive, I feel more vibrant, I'm having a lot more sex with my husband because I'm bringing that energy, you know, over to him. So the books are really great in a lot of ways, and I think they can be complicated and not so great in other ways too. So I think a lot about— I think a lot about the golden rule in so many aspects of life and relationships. But if you were reading books and telling me that you had like a book girlfriend, or maybe there was like a, you know, even if it's slightly different, a TV show you were watching that you're like, oh, this is my TV girlfriend, or worse, like a porn star that you were super into, like I would be really hurt by that. And I think that a lot of us women, and maybe it's because these books have had such positive influences on us in so many ways, like we are hesitant to criticize or like take a look at the ways that maybe we're not relating to them in such a healthy way. Like, I, yeah, I remember I started— I don't think I ever used the term book boyfriend. I don't think I ever said like, oh, Cassian, he's my book boyfriend. But yeah, I was really conscious of if Xander was thinking about this character and talking about this character in that way, that would not feel good to me. So this is going to be different in every relationship. There are totally going to be some relationships where the couple like gets off on this together. It's really hot and sexy. Maybe they do some role play. Maybe the partner is like, yeah, tell me more about your boyfriend. Tell me what do you want him to do to you, you know?

Yeah, let me show you what he can't do.

Yeah, so, so that's why I think, like, think about it in the Golden Rule context. Like, if your partner was doing this, that should guide how you should feel about your own behavior. Um, we also get— we do get a lot of men whenever we do a reel on Instagram about, like, a sexy book. We get a lot of men. I think a lot of men are feeling defensive about these books. So a lot of men will compare them to, how is this any different from porn?

Or if we post anything about porn, then men will jump in being like, well, how is this any different from, you know, from spicy novels and like how fixated women get on these characters? I think that there are a lot of differences. This is not the podcast episode where we are deep diving into—

but let us know if you want us to do a full deep dive on this.

But yeah, there are a lot of very stark differences, I think, between those two medium of spice.

Yeah, a lot of different. Yeah, definitely let us know. You can put it in the comments on Spotify or you can come on over to Instagram. We're @vanessaanzander. By the way, follow us there if you're not already. We would love to have you. And when you're leaving a comment on Spotify, make sure you tap that little follow button. It really helps the podcast. Okay, so but going back to the original questions, do they really want us to act like that? The answer is sometimes.

Is it a yes and no? So in a per se way, yes. In all other ways, no.

It's a little Love on the Spectrum joke. Dylan, our king. Okay, so I think that books can be great because they might give you ideas for things that you want to try in the bedroom. Oh, I never thought that that would be sexy. I never thought I would like that. Oh, here's our other under the gun.

Oh yeah, I was surprised you didn't mention that. Literally under the gun. The construction at our house. We started during lunch break.

We were like, we gotta go while they're on lunch break.

We gotta get it in as fast as possible. Guys, lunch break is officially over. They are installing some hardwood floor actually in our entryway, which is literally like a new job. Which is very exciting. Very exciting for us. But who knows if we'll see how much.

Hopefully they might come pick it up. But if you hear a little thunk, thunk in the background, sorry. We're just, we're trying our best today, guys. Okay. So sometimes they give you ideas for things that you never thought to try and you get a little curious. And I think that's great and fun. Yeah. Sometimes, though, it's just sexy to read about it because it's something that you wouldn't want to do in your real life. You're like, yeah, I don't want— I don't want that. That doesn't turn me on. But it's hot to read about. And I think it's important for us to recognize that whenever we're exposed to sexual stimuli, we respond to it. If you're— you know, they've done some really interesting studies where they've put men and women, they've put measuring devices on their genitals and made them watch different kinds of porn. And I know we have the stereotype that men are the more visual creatures, but actually women respond even more to visual than men do. And people will, even when they're watching porn that they say like, I don't like that, that's not my thing, their bodies will still respond to that.

Yeah. And I think there's also an element of like once you start to get a little turned on, sometimes the spectrum of what will turn you on will widen a bit versus what you, you know, when you are in a neutral moment, you're like, yeah, no, I'm not really into that. Like, that's not something that I would seek out. But then, you know, when you're in the midst of it, it's like, oh, this is kind of exciting. That doesn't mean that like that is something that you need to seek out all the time or whatever.

So bottom line is I would ask your partner this. If your partner's talking a lot about a book boyfriend or this hot scene, like try to make it a bonding experience. Ask your partner, hey, do you wanna read that scene to me or do you wanna read it together? Don't make fun of them. That was a hard lesson that we had to learn. Xander was teasing me a little bit too much during my Romantasy reading and it hurt my feelings.

It was, well, yeah, I mean, 'cause part of what was, I think a lot of what was behind that was, it was two things. One, there was an element of me being uncomfortable with what was happening because I didn't really understand. My experience was all of a sudden Vanessa was really into something. It happened like boom. But I think the other thing is you kind of described it where at first you were reading these as a professional obligation. It was kind of a work thing and I was filtering it through that context and then things started to change and it was like, Wait, like, this isn't, you know, so I think part of the me making fun of you a bit was sort of like, was like, oh, you're not in integrity with the thing that you had originally said. I think, you know, you hadn't quite—

Oh, in integrity is harsh. Like, it's different.

It's shifted. Sorry, integrity. That's not the right word. But it was, you know, it was like, what I'm, what I'm seeing is different from what I had been hearing from you. And I think then there was a moment where it was like, You know, you were like, hey, I'm actually really like into these. I really like reading these. Yeah, I'm enjoying it. Yeah. Versus, you know, initially you were reading them like, oh, haha, I'm going to read this. I'm going to read these spicy things. Yeah. Like, it's so funny. So like, oh, these are like bad books. These are bad books, but I have to read them. And so then I start seeing you reading bad book. You know, I'm putting these in quotes and then all of a sudden you're like talking about it a lot. I'm like, oh, haha. Yeah, you love this bad book now. And it took you kind of being like, no, I actually have under— I started to realize I— I underestimated. I really like them too. They're not actually poorly written. Yeah, really. They're really exciting.

Just Sarah J. Maas. I haven't found anybody else that I like, but yeah.

Well, Sarah J. Maas, we love you.

So yeah, again, bottom line, I would ask your partner like, are there specific things that you want me to try out? Are there specific things you want me to do? I wouldn't try to act exactly like the book boyfriend because I think you might feel self-conscious about that and your partner's just going to like, there's no way you're ever going to fully capture a fictional character.

Yeah. It's more like how do we take this energy or this idea and make it us? Like what we really don't want to have happen is like, you're like, hey, let's do X, Y, and Z that Cassian does. And then like you do it and then like your partner does it. It's like, oh, like that's not what Cassian does. That's not how Cassian would really do it. Then it's like, then you're competing against just a fiction, you set up a dynamic of competition between, uh, you know, a fictional character that you can never actually know or meet or whatever, that's going to feel really crappy. So if you are finding yourself being like fixated on, oh, I need it to be just like Cassian, yeah, maybe that's a sign that you should examine your relationship with those type of novels. If you're like, wow, this is giving me a lot of exciting ideas I would love to play with in the bedroom, they don't need to be one for one what I'm reading, then Oh yeah, those are some great ideas.

I have to make one last point and then we have to move on because I feel like we could do the whole podcast on this topic.

We are turning this into a first 20 minutes on this one.

So I just have to say to the women who read these books, one of the very prominent themes— what is that noise now? It's a plane.

Okay. Sounds like a helicopter.

So one of the really prominent themes in these books, the majority of these books, is that the man takes control during sex and he just magically knows what to do and he's really fucking good at fucking.

So fucking someone he doesn't actually know how to fuck in real life.

And that's understandable to be very turned on by that. I think most of us would love to just have a partner who could like magically know what to do, just magically goes ahead and does it. Especially us women who are socialized to, you know, be more passive and not take too much action in the bedroom. But the reality is that that's an impossible standard for your partner to live up to. And it's an unfair standard to put on them too. So it can't be like, yeah, you should just know my body and you should just know what to do and like always take the lead and always be in control. Yeah. Unless your partner is like enthusiastically into that. But otherwise it's just not fair. I had the funniest conversation with my Pilates teacher the other day. She was like, my girlfriend sent me this website and was telling me this has the most incredible clothing for the best prices. You have to check it out. It's this website called Quince. She's Mexican and she thought it was pronounced quince. It's Quince. And I, as soon as I figured it out, I was like, oh my God, no, you mean Quince. And yes, they do make incredible products. I like, I'm actually blown away by how many different kinds of products Quince keeps adding, we originally started buying for— from them. We bought, um, linen napkins were the very first things that we ever bought, and I love these linen napkins. They were so much cheaper than I found at other places, but the quality was super high. Since then, we have bought clothing, bedding, shoes, wallets. Like, they have so much stuff, and they work directly with ethical factories to cut out the middleman. So you're just paying for the quality, not the brand markup. But they've got everything— sofas, ceramic cookware, premium bedding, like you will end up like my Pilates teacher's friend recommending it to everybody. My current favorite Quince item is their gauze sleeveless maxi dress. I always get compliments whenever I wear it. It's so comfortable. You feel like you're wearing nothing, but you still look effortlessly chic. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/pillow for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/pillow. Quince.com/pillow for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/pillow. Okay, let's force ourselves to move on, but definitely let us know if you want us to do even more of a deep dive into this topic.

All right, so is mental load actually something that women actually think about daily?

Yes. I, I have to admit, when I saw this question, my hackles went up a little bit. I think that there's a very interesting conversation happening about mental load online. So if you haven't heard the phrase mental load, it refers to the invisible mental labor that goes into running a household and family. So there are actual chores and tasks that need to be done, but behind each task, there's a lot of mental load.

Hidden other tasks.

Yes. So it's like having to remember, oh, we need more milk from the store. Oh, the dog hasn't been to I haven't had a checkup in a while. Oh, that brand of toilet paper is way better than this brand of toilet paper. Oh, we have to figure out how we're gonna get our gutters fixed and research who's the best person. So there's all this thinking that goes in.

Thinking about thinking.

Yeah, thinking about thinking. So there's things like identifying tasks that need to be done, identifying the options, like researching the options, picking the best option, actually doing the work. Evaluating the work, and then making adjustments and changes for next time around. So research shows us that in male-female relationships, women carry the vast majority of the mental load. And now that we are finally talking about this online— it really has only been in the last couple of years that this has been talked about openly online— I think the initial reaction from women was just pure relief. Like, oh my God, finally a word for all that work I've been doing. It felt so validating, like, yes, this is a lot of work. It is really hard. And it's really hard to show up in my relationship when I have so much on my plate, so much in my head. Like, it's hard to be present with my partner. It's hard to feel the desire for sex when I've got a million things running through my head. It's hard to like enjoy sex in the moment when I'm thinking about, oh my God, I forgot to send that email. So I think there was this huge wave of relief and validation that women felt at first.

And I think that there was also a degree to which it felt like, oh, now it makes sense why I felt this underlying feeling of unfairness or inequity in our relationship when it comes to how we manage the household, where, where I'm not being recognized for the entirety of what I'm doing. So, you know, it might be that, you know, my partner or other people are talking about how easy I have it when in reality it's not easy. Or talking about, "Oh yeah, no, everything is totally fair. He does this and I do this." And when you look at it on paper, it may look fair, but you're like, "Wait, but it doesn't feel that way because when I actually look at the amount that is going into this, it feels and looks totally different from what my partner is experiencing." Then what I think has happened is we've had a slew of different responses from men that have not felt super good for women to receive.

Yeah. So we've had the straight up confused reaction. Like, I just don't get it. What do you mean? And, you know, and a lot of that just comes down to, I think a lot of the men who are confused are genuinely well-intentioned and good-hearted, but they just don't, they didn't have that immediate like, recognition of, oh yes, that's the thing that I've been doing. So men, some men just literally need a bit more time to catch up and fully be able to understand it. Also, research shows us that men don't carry it. So they don't have that same experience that we women have. So there's been confusion. There's also been a lot of like denial of it. I think a lot of men say, a lot of men get defensive and they'll say, well, I'm doing so much. I'm making all the money and I'm having to do I do the lawn work and I take the trash out.

Yeah, I do that too. Oh, if I don't make a mortgage payment, we lose our house. Okay, okay, buddy, you do that once a month. And at— in this day and age, I sure hope it's automated.

I will say, I do think that there are some men in that category who still are well-intentioned, but they just got defensive. Yeah, we have an appreciation crisis in long-term relationships. I think most people feel unseen and unappreciated by their partner. So in this time when women are trying to say like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, this is the thing, like, look, I want you to see all that I've been doing, a lot of men, even though they're kind-hearted, they get defensive because they're like, well, I want you to see all the things that I've been doing too.

Or that they're like, if I were to see that, that it would say something about me where I've been doing a good job, like it would be a judgment on me that I'm not willing or able to accept currently.

And then some men in that category are just being jerks about it where they're wanting to like invalidate the experience or saying like, oh, come on, it's that hard? Try paying the mortgage.

Yeah. Or like, or you're choosing.

Oh, you didn't do remember the like the, you know, the toothpaste type that we need.

Yeah. Or you're choosing to be anxious about it.

Yeah. Like you don't need to think about all those things.

Don't make it such a big deal.

Yeah. And they don't realize like if nobody's thinking about those things, the household turns into chaos.

Yeah. That's what I was gonna say is like at the end of the day, yes. Both men and women, if we look at the sort of stereotypical breakdown of tasks and break, you know, kind of the gender-specific, the regular gender dynamic, maybe from 20 years ago of what a man would do and what a woman would do. Yes, there is mental load behind all of those tasks. I think the major difference between typical male and typical female mental load is that the typical male mental load, it is not in an ongoing everyday thing. It is like, oh, there's a lot of irregular tasks once a month, once a week, maybe. Oh, like mow the lawn once a week. I pay the mortgage once a month. Yeah, it's a higher stakes one if you mess it up, but also it's like most people are not on the verge of messing up paying the mortgage every single month. So it ends up being like not actually that big of a deal. And so I think that that's really the main difference is like men for most of these tasks are able to compartmentalize them for a while. I don't need to think about that until a couple days before it happens. Whereas much of the daily household stuff, it is happening every day. And the stakes, while the stakes may not be we're gonna lose our house, the stakes family-wise are actually very high. It, it directly impacts everybody in the household's quality of life and the kind of general expectations, especially once you have kids where it's like, yeah, you don't want your kids growing up in a household where like you might open the fridge one morning and there's no breakfast, right? So I think that the stakes are different and that— but they're more daily and constant for the typical female mental load.

And now what's happening because of all these reactions that we've seen from men is I think a lot of us women are getting defensive because we're not getting that validation. We're not getting seen the way we thought we would. And it feels even more painful to be like, oh my God, now there's finally a word for the thing and I can describe it to you. And now we're still not getting that validation. So I think a lot of women are getting really like aggro. I don't even wanna say aggro, like defensive and angry about it. So it's just the way that I'm seeing mental load talked about online is very adversarial. And I think we're so much further. From where we all want to be around like seeing seen and validated by each other. So this is another one that we could go down a whole path on. We actually do have two episodes on mental load. I think we need to redo one of them because it was like number four that we've ever done. The sound quality was probably just as good as today is. But yeah, I will, I'll force us to stop here and move on to our next topic. But bottom line is yes, women do think about mental load on a daily basis. It absolutely is impacting our ability to show up in our relationships and our sex lives. We want to be seen. We want to be validated. It doesn't need to feel adversarial. I think we can get to a place where we're acknowledging all the things that both partners in a relationship are bringing without it feeling like you giving validation to me means invalidating yourself.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a huge one. That's, that's a I mean, we've been there in our relationship. That was something that I feel like took us many, many years to really figure out. Yeah. It's like validating someone for something or letting someone express their annoyance, disappointment, upsetness, whatever, that like Vanessa being able to express something that she is feeling doesn't have to mean, oh my God, I'm a horrible person. The only way that I can hear her out is if I accept that like, oh my God, I'm this horrible person. The person that caused this thing. Like it took us so long to figure that out. Okay. Yeah.

That's why we literally have these tattoos on our body. If you can see the video right now, we both have—

Mine's more clear.

We both have the word "and" tattooed on our arms as a reminder that multiple things can be true at the same time. Like Xander can be feeling something and I can be feeling something and it doesn't, they don't cross each other out even if they're two really different feelings. Okay, let's— A couple of years ago, I gave my dad one of his favorite Father's Day gifts ever, Storyworth. So if you haven't heard of Storyworth before, basically it gives your dad or your loved one a year-long experience. So every week they get a question sent to them about their life and they get to respond however they want. They can write back over email, they can do a voice recording. This year, a guided phone call, which might be a great option if you have some technologically challenged people in your life. But seriously, it's, it's very, very simple. My dad could figure it out and he's technologically challenged. So they take this story and then at the end of the year, they compile the year's worth of stories, their words. You can also add photos as well into a beautiful hardcover book that then becomes a keepsake that you get to cherish for generations to come. As the person gifting it, you also get to play a role in it. Like you can pick the questions that you wanna send. I remember I wanted to ask my dad a bunch of questions about his childhood. He grew up in the suburbs of Massachusetts and since we didn't grow up there, like I just wanted to know more about what that experience was like, what that area was like. And we just got so many funny and unique stories that I'd never heard before, even though I felt like I had heard all of my dad's stories. So it was a really cool experience for the entire family. Families have used Storyworth to create over a million books. There are over 50,000 5-star reviews. New this year is Storyworth's Unlimited Plan. You can buy it once and give Storyworth memoirs to friends and family all year. This year, give Dad a gift that captures who he really is before the stories get harder to remember. Father's Day is Sunday, June 21st. Order right now and save up to $20 at storyworth.com/pillow. Save up to $20 at storyworth.com/pillow. Storyworth.com/pillow. Let's move on. I got to make myself— I'm talking about book boyfriends, mental load. These are all the hot topics. Get me fired up.

Well, I'm just going to hit you with one more. Cum on the face. Hot or not?

It's such a good transition to go from mental load to cum on the face.

Yeah. Do you think you can do this one in 30 seconds?

I think cum on the face is hot.

If you think it's hot. If you think it's hot, then it's hot.

I mean, this is the perfect one that you got to pause right here and you have to talk in your relationship about what you like and dislike, what you think is hot or not hot. But I think it's hot because it's such a crazy power imbalance. Like, like coming on somebody's face is a very intense act. It's a very like dominant act. When you're getting your face come on, you're being very submissive. Obviously like you can do it with different kinds of energy too, but I think that it's because it feels so animalistic and raw and naughty. I think there's something very hot about that. I will say So for me personally, that's only in the context of a loving relationship. I would never, like thinking back to my single days, I would not let a guy come on my face that was like somebody casual because it absolutely can feel very degrading. And if it was done by somebody that I didn't trust, if it was done with degrading energy, like, yeah, you take that, you know, I wanna make you feel small, I would hate that.

But if it's Xander, Cassian, or Rowan, it's good.

No, we're not talking about that. I'm not talking about them that way, but in— yeah, if it's with you, I know that you respect me, I know that you care about me, you love me. It's just like an energy that we're getting into during sex, and I think that's what sex is there for. Sex is a way that we play. Sex is a way that we try on other experiences and energies and vibes and things that we wouldn't want to do in our day-to-day life. Like, I would never want you to do anything degrading to me in real life, but I think there's something about allowing ourselves to go to these places during sex that we wouldn't do in real life that feels transgressive and naughty and exciting in that way. But again, it's because there's this foundation of the two of us of like, this, this doesn't mean I'm degrading you, this doesn't mean I don't respect you, this doesn't mean I'm trying to make you feel bad about yourself.

I think even beyond the, the power dynamic of it too, there's an argument also to be made for just the fact that like sexual body fluids can be hot if you are not, you know, ashamed of sex or ashamed of your body. I think most people that get through a lot of that shame that most of us have been socialized with, most of us have grown up with, tend to find, well, yeah, bodily fluids are hot. It's hot when we have sex. The fluids that our body makes when that happens, when we're turned on, like, fuck yeah, that's hot. Like, honestly, if you, if you were able to to cum in the same way that I was. Like, I would very happily be like cummed on my face by you, and I wouldn't like— I don't think I would even—

I mean, that's babysitting.

Yeah, like, but I would, I would, I would be all about that, and I wouldn't— I, to me, it wouldn't feel like, oh, it's this interesting power dynamic. It would just be like, yeah, that's hot.

I will say though, it can be— cum on the face can be challenging about where it gets. If it gets in your eye, that's really uncomfortable.

Close your eyes, which It's kind of funny because then you can't actually see the thing happening. It's more—

Well, you don't want to watch it shooting at you. That's scary.

Yeah, no, no, I know. Wear some glasses.

Goggles.

Yeah, goggles. Your cum goggles. It's not beer goggles. It's cum goggles, guys.

It reminds me of that, that like Nickelodeon show.

Oh God, the—

where you'd get like gacked. Yeah, you get slimed. Like the colorful slime and they're wearing their little goggles. What was that?

I was not allowed to watch TV as a kid. I've only heard about Nickelodeon. I've never watched it.

You love saying that whenever we talk about this. You love saying that as if you don't know that I also was not allowed to watch TV, but somehow—

Talking to our listeners, babe.

Somehow I was able to pick up on a lot more cultural knowledge than you were. Oh my God. That's going to really bother me. And I can't look it up because we don't have internet right now, but it was like Nick— All That? No, that was like a— get show. Please tell us in the comments.

I'm sure it was a variety of Nickelodeon things.

No, there was like one main, it was like a game show.

Oh yeah. I know what you're talking about.

There was also that different show that was like Legends of the Hidden Temple.

Yeah. Well, we used to, I grew up, the amusement park that I grew up closest to was Great America in like San Jose, Santa Clara. And they had a little like Nickelodeon zone where you could get slimed.

Oh.

Yeah, I know.

And that's how you get a fetish for cum on the face.

No, I've been to been to Great America multiple times, but I've never been to the Nickelodeon Zone. All right, well, you know, let's just kind of continue in that, uh, in that direction, so to speak. Dick pics, naked mirror selfies, are they wanted or unwanted? This is a broad question.

Another great one to pause right now and ask your partner, what do they think? I have to give the caveat that I have never consensually received a dick pic.

Yeah, we don't do nudes.

Well, when you and I met, we had phones that like you could send a picture, but it was super grainy. It took a ton of data. It was like really tiny.

It probably cost like a dollar to send a photo.

I had like a slider phone. So it was like, you know, the screen was this big. You'd be like, what is that little thing? So all the people that I dated before you, like, they're technologically— like, we couldn't even take a dick pic. And then when you and I started dating, like, you couldn't really.

Very quickly you could though.

Yeah, but I guess we just— we never—

we never developed a habit of it.

And we've always— we've, we've never had to be long distance. We've always spent a lot of time with each other. So there— it was kind of like, what's the point in our relationship? Like, I see your dick plenty. I don't need to see pictures of it as well. So I gotta give that caveat.

Then you see all the, just like, all the stuff online of like someone's account gets hacked and then there's like, and then you're like, okay, yeah, what do I stand to gain?

I don't want those pictures of me out there.

I can see you naked whenever I want.

I will say though, I think that women enjoy naked pictures a lot less than men do, but I don't think that's because we're not visual or we're not sexual. Remember that study that I referenced earlier that shows women are actually even more reactive to visual stimuli than men are. I think what it comes down to is that women make taking a naked photo an art, whereas men are just like, "Eh, there's my dick." The nudes that I have seen women take are beautiful, like so creative, great lighting, great angles. They're like doing a little bit of a tease where you can see a little bit but not everything. There's a story in the photo. Women are great at taking nudes, and men are just like, "Hey, G, I was hard." "I just peed and my dick's out. Let me just take a picture of it." A lot of times they're not even hard. That Wes Wilson from Summer House, his nudes got leaked recently, which by the way, totally uncool. Do not leak anybody's nudes. I haven't seen them. I won't go look for them because I think that's not cool.

But you've heard about them.

I've heard that he's completely soft in all of them. I think this is a very common thing that men are just like, yeah, here's my dick. So if you want your partner to enjoy your nudes, make them more artful.

Yeah, make them seductive. Leave a little to the imagination.

Good angle, good lighting, clear the stuff out of the background. Like, we don't want to see all your laundry, your weird lotion bottles.

I was about to say lotion bottles. Yeah, take the lotion bottles. There's always like some, like a Costco-sized lotion bottle. Lotion bottle, like, come on, bro.

Or like a tub of Vaseline or something. It's like, no, get that out of there. There's this great creator online. I'm totally blanking on her name right now, but she specializes in teaching poses for like people of all genders that are really like beautiful and artful. So it's like Sarah, something with an H. I don't know. I'm sure you can like—

This is not a sponsored, uh, mention.

Yeah, I don't know her personally. I've just come across her account and been like, oh, this is very creative. What an interesting business to create. But yeah, maybe do a little research, find some nice photos, some nice angles. I think she'll appreciate it a lot more. And always ask. Don't just send— I think that's the other big thing too. Like, don't just send an unwarranted— is that the word? Don't send a dick pic.

Unsolicited?

Yeah, unsolicited. Don't send it like without asking beforehand. And you can make that hot. Be like, oh, I was just thinking about you and I took a little picture. Can I send it to you? Like, it doesn't have to be a— Do I get your consent, ma'am, for me to pass along? Sign on the dotted line. Yeah. You don't have to like make it weird. You can still make it sexy. But yeah, ask your partner if they want to see it.

Yeah. We don't hear from a lot of women. We don't really hear from any women that are like, oh yeah, I just out of the blue randomly got sent a penis and that just made my day. I was so not expecting it. My boss just randomly sent me his penis. No!

No no never.

Yeah so to be clear guys I know that maybe this is a secret fantasy that you're like oh yeah she's gonna secretly love it.

Yeah no— It's no if it's if it's a trusting relationship if it's something that you've talked about you've asked maybe play it up a little bit because you spent some time taking the pictures or excited for her to see them turn it into a sexy date night between the two of you where you're like we're gonna take naughty pictures of each other and bond over that like create the scene together where work on the lighting together, swap taking photos of each other, show the photos to each other. Like, that could be really fun and sexy too, and then you create a little folder of, you know, fun photos to look at when we are apart or when we, you know, want something fun to look at.

Great idea.

You're probably bad at foreplay, but that is totally normal. We are not saying this to make you feel bad or ashamed, even though I am a sex therapist therapist, I was bad at foreplay.

I was bad at foreplay too.

And that's because foreplay is a skill. This is one of the most important messages about sex that we really try to drill in. Like, none of us are ever taught how to have sex, how to do foreplay well. So it's kind of like basketball. Like, I know generally how basketball works. I could kind of like muck my way through playing it, but I'm not gonna know how to actually be good at it unless somebody teaches me how, like how to actually play the game.

Yeah, and that's exactly where our Ultimate Foreplay Guides come in. Want to take your foreplay game to the next level and actually have fun doing it? These guys are all about exploring, experimenting, and discovering exactly what makes your partner melt.

So we give you step-by-step instructions. Like, there's no vague or generic advice here. We literally lay it out exactly what to do for you, and we cover hand jobs, blow jobs, fingering, and oral. We also have tasteful custom illustrations and GIFs that show you exactly how to do each move. You're a podcast listener, so clearly you like hearing things. So we have—

like, in your ear—

we have an audio version of the foreplay guides. We also give you a written version too. It covers over 100 different techniques, secret hacks, precise spots to maximize pleasure. So you're Seriously, it's everything you need to feel confident, playful, and adventurous in the bedroom.

Yeah, this is our number one top-selling guide. So head on over to vmtherapy.com/foreplay. That's F-O-R-E-P-L-A-Y to check out the guides. Um, we're also going to link to it in the show notes.

Get ready to laugh, play, and discover new ways to turn your partner on and yourself too. Zan—

All right, honest question. How many arguments start because of the fact that you're both just really tired?

I'd probably say like 60%. This is not scientific, but, uh, a lot of fights are just plain sleep deprivation.

Yeah, at a minimum.

Cuz when you're not well rested, everything feels bigger.

You're more reactive, less patient, less interested in connecting, and less interested in other things as well.

Yes, including that.

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I do not.

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I really want people to get over this whole idea that sex is dirty and that we have to like shower before and or after.

You got to be squeaky clean.

Yeah. Bodies are bodies. Bodies are not meant to smell like cotton candy and fresh laundry. Like, bodies are bodies. And I think it's remnants of a lot of shame and sex negativity when we feel like we have to, you know, shower beforehand and we have to shower afterwards. I will say, of course, we need to keep basic hygiene in mind. So if you're a plumber, if you're doing manual labor all day, if you're a nurse, you know, like you're genuinely concerned about dirt, grime, germs, sweat.

Like, yeah, if you take your— if you take your pants off and you can smell yourself and it's not a pleasant smell, that would be a great sign to take a shower whether or not you are having sex. I think that maybe that's the, you know, people think, oh, well, in order to have sex like that requires a certain level of cleanliness. Honestly, I think it's just a kind of a regular assessment. Assessment. Am I, am I super sweaty? Can I tell that there's an odor when I, you know, maybe touch myself? And like, does my— do, you know, my fingers smell? Like, okay, that's maybe a good sign. Yeah, right. Like, that would be a great time to take a shower, sex or not. So like, the evaluation should just be like, do— like, do I need to take a shower independent of sex? If the answer If the answer is yes, take a shower, then have some sex. If the answer is no, then have at it.

Yeah. And I, and I, yeah, I just want people to not feel so much shame and embarrassment around it. Like, we don't have to be absolutely squeaky clean. It's okay for bodies to, you know, just be bodies doing body things. And especially genitals, you know, we don't— for women, you know, we're not supposed to use soap on our genitals. That actually disrupts our pH balance and ironically can lead to more odor because your vagina gets irritated when it's not it at its natural pH balance. So I want us to like get over that shame, but of course, you know, basic hygiene is important too. Also, there's a nice little in-between too. If you're like, uh, you know, yeah, no, I didn't do any manual labor, I'm not like, you know, I don't feel like I need a shower, but I still like don't feel my greatest, like a little organic unscented baby wipe can be great too. Just give yourself like a little wipe down for people of all genders. Like that can be a nice thing. Just no scents and no nasty ingredients.

Yeah. I mean, is this overly simplified? Take your underwear off. Give them a sniff.

If you're like, woo, it's time for a shower. I think that is complicated. That's complicated for women.

Well, I guess our own smell, because I think there's also a pheromone issue. Your idea of what smells good on me is very different. I'm like, oh God, like I forgot to put deodorant on and I don't smell good. And Vanessa's like, come closer.

No, I think that's a tough one for us. Maybe for men that trick could work. For women, we're so socialized to believe that our genitals smell bad that I think most women would smell their underwear and think like, oh, I smell horrible. I'm going to have to go shower.

Okay.

But maybe for men.

Yeah, no, I think that smells like ambrosia. Ambrosia. All right. I guess we'll move in the slightly less explicit direction now, but still kind of explicit. Why do women share about their sex life so openly with their friends?

Well, women share about life in general so openly with their friends.

Yeah, more openly than men typically.

Much more openly. I mean, we women, this is one of the few things that's good about being socialized as a woman in this country is that we're given permission to be emotional creatures. Like it's okay for a woman women to be really close with each other, to like share with each other, to be very open and vulnerable and intimate with each other. So whereas men are told that they're not supposed to be that way, they're not supposed to have feelings, they're certainly not supposed to express them, and they're certainly not supposed to express them with male friends. I think you get a lot of conditioning that like, oh, that's gay. I don't know how emotions became gay somehow. Not that being gay is a bad But, um, yeah, men just don't do that. And that is one thing that I feel so grateful for because the intimacy that I have in my friendships means so much to me and it impacts my life in such a positive way. Whereas most men— oh, I can't, I can't remember the statistic, but there was some awful statistic I saw recently. I think There was like, they asked men, do you have a best friend? And something like only 20, 25% of men said yes. Like the vast majority of men said that they, I think the vast majority of men said that they didn't even have any friends.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what the stat was.

Like no friend. That's crazy to have no friends. There's a huge loneliness epidemic, you know, for all people, but I think especially for men because of all the shitty socialization that you get. And even you, who is very in touch with his emotions. I think you have friends who are more in touch with their emotions and more open and vulnerable than the average man. You'll still come back from hanging out with your friends and I'll be like, oh, what'd you talk about? And you're like, sports and the weather and surfing, the surf report. And I'm like, okay, what else? Like, what's going on in their lives? What are they struggling with? You know? And you're like, oh, well, we didn't really talk about that. I'm like, if you don't even wind up talking about stuff the majority of times with your friends? Like, what's the average dude? Yeah, literally zero, you know, no emotional depth to those conversations. So I feel really bad for men that you get such crappy socialization around that. But going back to the question, I think sex is just— sex is a part of our lives, so we talk openly about it with our friends in the same way that we talk about other aspects of our lives. And for the most part, I think this is a really good thing. Obviously both of us are very much in favor for people talking about their sex lives openly. I think it leads to a lot of healing. It busts up the shame that we all feel. It increases our confidence. It makes it easier for us to talk about it with our partners and to make improvements to our sex lives. So I think talking about it openly is important and good. The flip side of that coin is every couple is going to have a different line line about what feels okay to talk about. I think we did a, we had an episode recently of the Am I the Asshole series where I think it was the husband complaining that his wife had shared really intimate details.

Yeah.

Like his penis size.

Yeah. Like with like the mom and sister or something. And then they were like, they had been calling him a name that was an inside joke for a long time. And then he only found out about it. About it later and was just absolutely mortified and also really upset. Yeah, understandably.

So I think you're allowed to have boundaries. You're allowed to say, you know, I don't want personal details about my body revealed, or like, I don't want you to talk about this aspect of our sex life with your friends. It's something that each couple is going to have to navigate between themselves individually. So if this question is stemming from, I wish my partner wasn't talking about this aspect of our sex life with their friends. You're allowed to ask for that. It can get tricky because I think you're, we're also, we're each allowed to have trusted friends that we turn to to be really vulnerable and open with. So I don't think you can make a blanket statement of like, you're not allowed to talk about any aspect of our sex life with your friends.

Yeah, if your gut reaction is, I don't want my partner to talk about anything about our sex life, that's private, that's ours.

Yeah.

You might want to examine some of your beliefs or maybe shame that is coming up for you around sex. I think that that might— that can be a very knee-jerk reaction when you're like, oh, I feel really uncomfortable with this topic. It's gross and it's dirty, and I don't want anybody knowing that I'm doing that. And so if you're— if that is what's coming up for you, oh, that's just not natural, or that's not normal, or that's just between us, then, you know, try to be a little circumspect about what might be happening or what might be coming for you. But yeah, no, I think it's, yeah, it's ultimately, it's like, you know, we have to have discretion in what we share. And, you know, and yeah, it's not going to be perfect. There's not going to be a perfect line to draw. These details are okay, those details are not. Yeah. But I think that it's also like, if you were sharing something with your friends and then like we went out for dinner altogether or something and you noticed one of your friends like starting to say something to me or something, you would probably need to make a decision. Am I going to have a talk with that friend? Is maybe this not going to be a long-term friendship or someone that I share those type of details with since they don't really seem to be able to handle it very well? So it's like, this is an ongoing work. I think all of us do this with our friends. We talk about things and we do trust our friends to have appropriate discretion discretion with what we tell them. And if that discretion gets broken, we have to either have a conversation with them talking about, hey, this is why this didn't feel appropriate to me. I would request you not do this again. Or, you know, if it's something they're repeatedly doing, we might have to evaluate, is this a good friendship for me? All right, next question. I'm not able to last very long. Do women like being finished off with hands or fingers, or does that feel like a last-ditch effort?

Women want to come. Like, we want to be able to have orgasms too. And it's really important to recognize that you are way more likely to make a woman come with your hands or mouth than you are with your penis. Intercourse for a woman does not create very much clitoral stimulation, and clitoral stimulation is where we get the majority of our pleasure. So our clitoris is like a man's penis. They actually are— those two structures are biological equivalents. So think about, like, what would sex be like for you if what we defined as sex meant your penis wasn't getting touched at all?

Or it was like, it would get touched for a second and then we'd be like, all right, 5-minute break. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, we got touched, it got brushed in passing. You're good, right? You're good. Okay, yeah, let's keep, uh, you know, rubbing your balls for a while. And then it's like, oh whoops, touch your penis again.

So if you want a woman to feel pleasure, you need to have focused stimulation on her clitoris. So if you don't last very long long, one of the ways that you can— because I think for men this can be very embarrassing to feel like, yeah, I don't last very long, I don't have a lot of control over my orgasm, it, you know, it ends right when I felt like we were just getting started. It can be a real blow to your confidence. And one of the ways to increase your confidence is to focus on your partner and make sure that she's able to come. So I typically recommend that she comes first, because then you have that surge of confidence. You know, you've made her feel good. And we women— so most men, when you orgasm, you have a refractory period where you just, you can't come again.

You can't get hard.

You can't get hard again. It doesn't feel good again.

You don't even want the idea of sex.

Doesn't even sound good. We women don't have that. We can keep going. Sometimes we'll have like a clitoral oversensitivity where like, don't, don't touch my clitoris. But again, because intercourse doesn't create a ton of clitoral stimulation, most women can keep going after they've had an orgasm. Also, women are capable of having multiple orgasms without that refractory period. So if you make her orgasm first, she's gonna feel good, you're gonna feel good, and then it doesn't matter so much if you don't last as long.

Yeah, you're not going to be so focused on lasting longer, which counterintuitively you may actually find yourself lasting longer. That can— that is often the very first prescription, so to speak, for people who are struggling with coming too fast is, hey, let's completely take the pressure off of you and how long you last. Let's just give your partner at least one orgasm first, and then you get to do whatever you want. And, you know, that can be a way to start to train yourself back into, oh, okay, what is it like when I actually am not in my head constantly about how long is this gonna take?

So my recommendation is to get her off first, but it's also totally fine to get her off afterwards too. I think the key—

It's a preference thing, right? Yeah. Like you talk about this with your partner ideally.

And I think the key is really about your attitude when you do it. So if you come and you're really embarrassed and you're like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Like, can I like do something for you? And you're like desperately trying to like fiddle with her clit.

Like, that's not good vibes.

Yeah. That's not gonna feel good for her. And she's gonna have this feeling of like, this is, it's over already. And this feels weird and bad. And then she's probably gonna get self-conscious about how long she's taking and like, oh my God, he's probably so bored. He already came. Like, this is just done. So she's probably gonna struggle to let herself receive. But if you just go right into like, okay, now I'm gonna focus on you and take care of you. Sit back and relax, girl. Yeah. Relaxed. I'm gonna keep going as long as it feels good. If you approach it with confidence rather than like anxiety, then she's gonna feel way better. And it's, and it's definitely like, if you make it feel like a last-ditch effort, she's gonna feel that. But if you make it feel like, babe, strap in, I'm here to make you feel good, she's gonna feel that too.

Yeah. And I think ultimately, if this is a long-term committed relationship, this is This is a conversation that is worth having and continuing to come back to. I know this is the conversation a lot of men don't want to have because they don't want to admit what's really going on. But I promise you, if you just come clean about how you feel about this and say, hey, this is— I'm noticing this is something that I'm really in my head about a lot. I feel really awful and embarrassed and ashamed when it happens. And that's really hard for me because I want to make you feel good. I want to make sure that you are having an orgasm. So I would love for us to talk about like how we can make sure that you get what you need, whether it's first, whether it's second. I want to talk to you about what that can look like so that I, I think that if I was able to know that we have a plan, then I can approach sex much less in my head. I don't need to be so worried about me being the boss. Bottleneck in sex, right? And so yeah, I do like your suggestion. For the most part, yeah, I totally agree. Let's get her to come first in an ideal world. But yes, you may find as you're talking about it, if she goes, you know what, I actually get really overstimulated after I orgasm, and even vaginal penetration can feel like too much for me, she might be like, yeah, no, I would rather that you come first and then you focus on me. Or if she's like totally loves receiving, it's like, yeah, that Actually sounds super hot. I would love, I would love to have the experience of just lying back knowing that it's all about me afterwards. Like, you know, so that's why the conversation is important. I get that you want to be able to just know what the magic bullet is where you don't have to have the conversation. But I promise you, if you have a conversation, you'll let her in, you'll be vulnerable. She will like you, love you more because she gets to see what's going on with you and you will end up feeling better too.

All right, well, we are gonna wrap it up now while our lights and cameras are all— I think they're still alive. Yes, I think we made it. Thank you so much for bearing with us for the sound quality. We always try to give you as high quality of episodes as we can, and I'm a little bummed about this, but I appreciate everybody's patience and understanding with some less than ideal circumstances. But you You know, we've never missed an episode in like 5 years of doing this podcast. Wow. Like we always want you to get an episode every single week. So that's our dedication. But yeah, appreciate the patience ahead of time. Thank you so much. It will not be this way next week. All right. That is all for today's episode. Thanks for listening and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.