E265: Is This Cheating? (Part 3) Emotional Affairs, Secret Texts, and Sneaky DMs

Yeah, if y'all keep cheating, we'll keep doing these episodes.

I mean, please stop cheating and please stop doing bad things. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa.

And Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Welcome back to another round of Is This Cheating?

I think this is a crowd favorite, a fan favorite, and—

This is the third one.

It's one of our favorites.

Yeah.

It's exciting.

The third one we've done because We get so many submissions for this. We always turn to our trusty Instagram audience. We're @vanessamarin and @xandermarin, if you're not already following us. And we asked people, you know, we're doing this episode called Is This Cheating? So tell us a scenario in your relationship that's leaving you wondering, like, does this count as cheating or not? Like, it feels like a gray zone to me. I want somebody else to weigh in on this and let me know.

Or like, I feel one way, my partner feels a different way. How do we— How do we reconcile these seemingly irreconcilable perspectives?

And I think this is such a fascinating topic to get into. Like cheating is obviously a very big, very challenging, very painful topic. But seeing some of these specific scenarios and the things people are dealing with, it's very fascinating. I mean, this is definitely a voyeuristic episode to listen to if you just want this like inside sneak peek at what's really going on in other people's relationships. Yeah.

Why do you think we keep getting so many of these?

Because a lot of people cheat. But I mean, cheating's really rampant.

But beyond that, why do you think we have so many? 'Cause as we read through these, you'll see a lot of them are like, you know, the person writing in is like, this is how I'm perceiving it. This is what my partner is saying, or this is what they're claim— this is why they claim this isn't a problem. Why do you think we have so many of these misalignments or misunderstandings?

Because we love justifying our own bad behavior. I mean, yeah, like I think— I know, okay, here's my hot take.

Oh, okay.

I think that cheating is a lot more black and white than most people think it is, but I think that it's very easy for us to justify our own bad behaviors. I mean, nobody wants to think of themselves as a cheater, but I think a lot of people have been in scenarios where something happened. They were tempted in a way that they didn't think they were going to be. They kind of, you know, just went along with something that they didn't think they would have. And I mean, it's an actual psychological phenomenon that when somebody else does something bad to us, it's very easy for us to look at it in this black and white way and say like, "That was bad. That was wrong. You shouldn't have done that." But when we do something bad ourselves, we tend to justify it. "Well, I didn't mean to do that," or "I wasn't the one who started that," or "That was really that other person's thing." You already told me.

"We never talked about it." Yeah, or you bring in external situations. Oh, well, this was a challenging situation because X, Y, and Z was happening versus, oh, I was just a bad person or I didn't care about the other person and I just did it. I think on top of that though too, I think one of the huge trends when we have these episodes is we do talk a lot about, hey, you gotta have conversations, not just at the beginning of your relationship, but throughout your relationship about, how are we feeling about certain things? I think that we often assume that the definition of cheating is very black and white and almost innately understood by everyone. But I think that just like how most couples don't ever talk about, are we opting into monogamy? Are we assuming that we're in a monogamous relationship? Are we in a monogamous relationship? Are we thinking that X, Y, and Z is cheating or ABC is cheating? I think most people assume that we have the shared definition. Mm-hmm. You know, the big learning for me from these is like, most couples do not talk enough at the beginning of their relationship about what the bounds are and throughout their relationship about how they're feeling about certain things. And so then we start making assumptions. Oh, well, because I would never do this, my partner would never do this.

Yeah, the bottom line is that everybody has to define cheating in their own relationship. There is no universal, this is cheating and this is not. Like you're going to hear a lot of scenarios in this episode. And some people are going to are gonna think, absolutely not, that's not cheating. I actually think that's hot. I'd love to see my partner do that. And some people are gonna think, are you freaking kidding me? Of course that's cheating.

Yeah.

Like there is no universal right or wrong here. Every couple has to decide for themselves. But I think one of the big problems that comes up is that a lot of these scenarios don't get discussed ahead of time because they're so specific and detailed. So for example, most couples, I think, most monogamous couples have had a conversation saying, "Hey, we're gonna be monogamous. We're not gonna sleep with anybody else." Yeah. Okay, yeah, great. We're on the same page. But like we have a scenario that's like somebody's talking about sex with a random person at the gym. Like what couple is sitting down going through every single scenario of, "Okay, well let's say that you find a random person at the gym and you guys all of a sudden start like randomly talking about sex. Does that count as cheating, yes or no?" So it can be hard to pin down exactly what your definition is because there are just so many freaking possibilities. So because of that, I think that this is a great episode to listen to as a couple. Like, listen to us read the scenario, pause the episode right there, the two of you talk about would you define this as cheating, yes or no? It's a great way to help you get more clarity on your own boundaries.

Yeah, and then I think even take it up a notch because these are gonna be very specific scenarios. So obviously talk about with this specific scenario, what would we categorize that in our relationship as, but then I would say to make this really relevant, then try to go a step further and say, okay, so this very specific situation, we both agree that would not be okay. So can we, like, how can we define that more generally? Like, okay, so in the example that you gave of like talking to a random person at the gym about your sex life, you know, then it's like, okay, so maybe should we, you know, what is our perspective on You know, who do we— who are we both okay with, you know, us talking in detail about our sex life with? Okay, so maybe that would be like, we can talk about it together, we can talk about it with a therapist, we can talk about it in couples therapy, you know, like you can talk about it with like, you know, you know, a couple of your best friends who are like super close and you really trust. Beyond that, that feels inappropriate or something. You know, we've done episodes about AI. It's like we never conceptualized AI when we got into a relationship. So you and I— Yeah. AI, if we were just like, "Oh, yeah, well, obviously, we know what cheating is because we got together 18, 19 years ago, and we just know." Well, yeah, there was no such thing as AI. There was no such thing as dating apps. There was no such thing as all kinds of things. So it's like we have to keep having those types of conversations to get to that point. Kind of like your hot take was, it should be really black and white.

Mm-hmm.

It should be black and white. If you have had the type of conversation such that you really do understand what's going, you know, what the rules are in your relationship. I think most of us live in a gray area because we're kind of scared to talk about it because we're scared what it would mean if we disagreed on them.

Okay, before we get into all the scenarios for today, we wanted to ask you a super quick favor. Would you please subscribe to the show? All you have to do is just hit that little plus button wherever you are listening. It really, really helps. I know it sounds silly and simple, but it genuinely does make a big difference. And if you want to get a gold star, we would love for you to leave a rating or review. Reviews you can only leave on Apple. You just find like our main page, scroll down to the bottom, you'll see a little section where you can leave a review there. But it genuinely does help the podcast get in front of new audiences. We have such a great like core community of Pillow Talks listeners and we appreciate you guys so much. And we really are on a mission to help as many couples as we possibly can. So when you you leave a rating and review, Apple and Spotify are more likely to display the podcast as a recommended podcast, which means new people can find it. Because otherwise, it's very rare for new people to just stumble upon the podcast. Okay, Xander, why don't you read our first story?

All right, let's go. We had been dating for 2 years. Then his friend, who's a girl who he had a longtime crush on before we got together, reaches out to rant about her friends. But they ended up going on multiple night drives. He ended up planning a trip for her to join him and his friends without me, but didn't happen. Then he booked an Airbnb for just them two with a hot tub and messages confirming it would be just them and to make sure to bring a swimsuit for the hot tub. He then canceled because he took it too far. He took it too far, as in quote, that's what he said.

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I got one question.

What?

If it's just the two of them, maybe this is a little contrarian. I'm not trying to excuse him at all. This is kind of just like an innate take, but why, why bring a, why do you need a swimsuit if you guys are like hooking up at the Airbnb and it's just the two of you?

I mean, this is very clearly crossing over the edge. Like, yeah, the fact that this is somebody that he's admitted to having a long-time crush on, and then you're planning a private trip for the two of you, just the two of them to be at an Airbnb. Yeah, why, why? Like, this makes no sense.

No, yeah, swimsuit or not. At least this submission doesn't say, oh, well, he claimed he told her to bring a swimsuit, so obviously nothing was gonna happen.

I mean, something's definitely going to happen, swimsuit or not.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I mean, and she even— he even knows. He said he canceled because he took it too far.

So good for him for realizing.

Yeah.

Good for him for realizing. I would be concerned— yeah, I would be concerned about that judgment given, yes, it did go too far, and that's great that you identified that. I would be— yeah, I would want to really try to understand how did it even get this far in the first place.

Yeah, I mean, like, it also says that he planned a trip for this girl to join him and his friends. But not his girlfriend. Like, that's weird, too.

Yeah, how is that going to play with your friends?

Yeah. Okay, what about the night drives, though? So let's just say, remove the rest of this. If this was just he made a new friend and they're going on night drives together.

As opposed to day drives?

I don't know, night drives are a little more—

It feels like a very teenage kind of thing.

It does.

Um, yeah, I would— That, I would say that in and of itself isn't cheating per se, but it would be a big like, like, hey, what's going, what is going on? Like, what are you hope, like, why are you like, yeah, why are you, why are you doing this? Why does that, why does this feel appropriate to you? I don't think this feels okay. Do we need to have more clear conversation about what is and isn't okay? In our relationship? It seems like that is a real opportunity to, one, understand what the hell is he thinking, and two, to figure out what needs to be more clear for us.

I don't know, honestly. I think this guy just wants to do what he wants to do. I don't think a conversation is going to help. I think this relationship is toast.

Yeah. I mean, I think the real problem here is, yes, he says he took it too far at the end, but also, The thing that I would, if this were me and I'd found out that you were doing this, I feel like the thing that would be really challenging for me would be, okay, so you went on these night drives and okay, so maybe there was this trip that she was supposed to go on with the friends but didn't. But there's so many opportunities for this to be far more than what he's saying, where it's like, I don't know what happened on the night drive. The night, I feel so funny saying it, the night drive.

I know, the night drive. Where it's like, okay, yeah, so Based on what?

It's like either you're lying and way more, and you've just been physically cheating for a long time and you want to back out of it. And so you've said, "Oh, this thing happened and went too far and it's all over." Or you just have really horrendous, horrendous, I was going to say horrible.

Horrendous.

Horrible, horrendous judgment that shows a real misalignment between what we value or how we care about each other.

Okay, I think there are two different things here. Like there's just straight up cheating, the black and white, you know, we actually hooked up with each other. But there's also this second bucket that I think is a bigger bucket. It happens more frequently where people set themselves up to cheat, or we could say they set themselves up for monogamy failure. And I think people really justify to themselves like, oh, but nothing ended up happening.

We didn't do anything.

I I canceled it because I knew I took it too far. But they don't recognize that that's— it is still cheating in a way. Like you're setting yourself up for something to happen. And it doesn't matter if something did or actually didn't happen. There's still a betrayal involved in letting something get to that point.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that— I'm not saying that one is okay and the other is not, but the repeated nature of this. Takes it up a notch. I do think it's one thing where it's, if it were like, literally just the last thing where it's like, or not even the last thing, literally one thing happens. And you're like, oh, God, I really took that too far. That was awful. I'm so sorry. I'm like coming clean and telling you about what happened. This is the only time this happened versus it being like, oh, yeah, well, oh, yeah, no, we were going on drives. And that was fine. And oh, yeah, she was gonna come on this trip with my friends. And it didn't work out. We That's fine. But then like only this other big problematic thing happened where I would be like, well, yeah, that thing that, you know, you booking a trip, solo trip together is a huge problem. Yes. But like you repeatedly were in situations where even if you truly didn't physically cheat in any of them, you were absolutely putting yourself repeatedly in the situation to do it. Yeah.

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So they're live photos is what you're saying?

No, in the videos.

Oh, I thought it said photos.

No, no, no. Photos of her vulva, and you can hear her moaning in the videos. He said they weren't for himself, but for his friend who he was out drinking with one night. Like—

Really, bro? This is the excuse you come up with? Like, try harder. Try harder, my dude.

They're not for me, they're for my friend. Do you collect nude videos for your friend? Are you just like that good of a friend that you're out at the bars trying to get women to send you nude videos just for your friends? You can pass them along.

Well, I do—

What would the scenario be that he's actually doing this for his friend?

I do think that this was basically the— I never— I didn't actually use this as an excuse, but this was kind of what I told myself the situation was when I was, I don't know, like probably in like 8th grade. And I think my dad caught— saw like browser history of me looking at some porn sites because in my mind I was like, thought that my friend would think it was because we— he was— he was— my friend was talking about like wanting to be able to see pictures of what vulvas looked like. And then I was like, "Oh, wouldn't it be cool if I could find some?" And I did at home because we were very early internet adopters at the time. And thank God I didn't. In my mind, I was like, "Oh, I could print these out and bring them to school to show my friend. That would be really cool." Thank God I didn't do that. But yeah, I think when my dad caught me, in my mind, I was like, "Oh, well, I was only doing it like to show my friends." Yeah. And then I kind of had to have a good hard long think about it. It's like, "Yeah, but I still chose to do it." Anyway.

Cool story.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like— this doesn't seem like a good situation. And even— why would— why aren't they on your friends' phone? Like, why do they need to be on your phone if they're for your friends? It doesn't even make sense.

Oh, also it's a female friend. Like, it's not even just some random person.

Yeah, it's not even a random person. And yeah, there's a degree of connection, because I mean, if it's a random female, you know, these videos are everywhere on the internet. Like, they're not— there's nothing unique about that. But yeah, the fact that it's a friend of theirs—

It's weird.

This is— yeah, I mean, the only way I could say this is not cheating is if you guys have agreed that there's some amount kind of openness, like—

But this is exactly what I mean about there not being any universal definition. Like, I could see some couples saying like, "Yeah, I think that's hot. Go ahead. You know, I want to see those videos too. Let's watch them together." Yeah. So again, we're obviously, we're only giving our opinions about what our definitions are of cheating in this episode, but—

But clearly in this situation—

Some people might not.

Clearly in this situation, I think I can say with 99.8% certainty—

Wow.

—that that is not the case in their relationship. That, you know, that it's not like a relationship where they would be like, "Oh yeah, it's super hot. Oh yeah, like you wouldn't believe I went out and got these crazy videos. Let's watch them together." Because he's making the excuse, "Oh, it's just for my friend," right? Like if that was the situation that you guys were in, then you wouldn't be you wouldn't be getting caught with it. You would literally be bringing it to your partner. Oh my God, look at this. It's craziest thing happened when we were out last night and these videos that we took or got sent to me or whatever. But yeah, cheating.

Okay.

99.8%.

Why don't you read the next one? Cheating.

He went to a sex shop/porn movie theater and never told me. I finally found receipts at his house while tidying up. The place looks like a sex shop for supplies, but they have two movie theaters showing porn, private VIP arcade rooms, and more. 'People are just having sex openly in the theaters and there's prostitutes who walk around offering services in the theater. I was heartbroken.' He says he didn't have sex with anyone, but if that's true, clearly went to have sex with himself while watching porn, naked women, and other people having sex right next to him.

This is actually a tricky one because if it's a, it's like it's two businesses in one. It's a sex shop for supplies, but also it has these movie theater sex rooms as well. So I guess we have to see what did the receipts say. She literally has the receipts.

Yeah, why?

Like, are the receipts for him watching movies or are the receipts for like, no, he was buying lube and toys for the two of you to use together? Like, that wouldn't be cheating.

Yeah, but I would feel like, I would say, okay, yeah, so if you're just going to buy lube and some sex toys for you guys to use, Why would you choose to go to that sex shop?

Maybe that's the only one they have in their place.

That would be fair. Though that would also, to me, kind of feel like it would be a smart thing to do to be like, "Hey babe, I'm gonna go buy some stuff. This is the only sex shop we have. God, it's such a— it's so annoying." Or let's go together. Yeah, let's go together. Or like, "Man, it's so weird and annoying that the only sex shop we have in town also has all these opportunities for more to happen. I'm going to go— I'm literally just going in to get whatever versus being found out way later. I mean, the problem with someone, your partner finding out about something way later is that you have to expect that their mind is kind of going to run through all the possibilities and assume the worst because you weren't upfront about it.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, I mean, but honestly that would be my first thing is just why did you choose to go to that one if not to, you know, to access the seedier element of what is there?

Well, but again, even then, like it's still complicated. So let's say that he went just to go watch porn and masturbate in this movie theater. Again, like some people would say I don't want any porn in our relationship, that feels like cheating to me. Other people are like, like, you know, you get to have your own relationship with your own body and, you know, masturbating is okay and watching porn while you're masturbating is okay. So I think some people would not necessarily define this as cheating. The piece around other people having sex in the same room is really interesting to me.

Yeah.

Because at least within our community, whenever we ask about porn, I feel like we have a pretty even split of some people feel like, "I don't want porn to be a part of our relationship. Like, that feels like cheating to me." And a lot of people, you know, I'd say probably half and half, a lot of people saying, "No, like, porn is fine. Maybe there's some, you know, certain guidelines or obviously, you know, we don't want that being the only thing that we're doing." But like a lot of people are totally fine with having porn as a part of their relationship. So with porn, you're watching other people have sex. But this idea of being in a room where other people are having sex, but you're not participating in that, is it any different?

Well, yeah, I think that the live nature of it makes it akin to, you know, other, other ways in this day and age that there can be like a more live or direct element to porn.

But if you're not participating in it at all, This is a really interesting thing for people to talk about in their own relationship.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have an answer. I don't have an answer other than it is important to talk in your relationship, 'cause I think the problem is many couples may have had the conversation of, "Hey, is porn okay, yes or no?" And if that's the only conversation you've had, one partner can assume, "Oh, well, that obviously means that any, that like we just are talking about you watching porn on your computer, like at home alone." no one else around, right? And the other partner could be like, "Oh yeah, no, I have complete permission to like do that in a live setting, to do that like, you know, with somebody else." Mm-hmm. Right? So it's like, that is clearly not, especially in this technological day and age, 'cause like this shit wasn't possible 10 plus, well, the porn movie theater absolutely was possible 10 plus years ago, but like the stuff we have available to us us online with porn and cameras and video and all that stuff is a completely different ballgame. So, yeah, like it's not— it's not enough to assume that a conversation that you had in a different technological era covers this one. Like have the conversations, please.

Yeah, I guess I'm kind of mulling it over, the like live nature of it. I guess it feels more like there's more possibility of setting yourself up for failure here. Yeah.

And there's like roving prostitutes in the area?

Yes. I was trying to take that part of it out. I was just thinking about the actual act of watching other people have sex live versus on a screen. There is more possibility that maybe you, you know, you could get involved versus obviously watching them on a screen, you couldn't.

It's really kind of like saying, "Oh, well, like, wait, you went to a sex club?" And the partner's like, like, yeah, I was just doing my own thing, watching other people, right? Like, where it's like, okay, yeah, if that is true, then yeah, technically you weren't— you didn't touch anybody, you— no one touched you, you didn't do anything, you were just masturbating, or you were just watching. But yeah, I mean, I think like just my own common sense barometer where I'm at right now in my life is like, yeah, that feels like a step beyond. Like, you've had to take a number of steps from porn is on the table to what I'm doing now is okay.

Okay, let's move on to the next one. When I was 5 months pregnant.

Ooh, this is gonna be a doozy. Just from the start.

Let's just set a rule that when your lady's pregnant, just be on your best behavior. She's doing something really hard. Don't be an asshole during this time.

Yeah, don't attempt to be consistently at that level. At what you might think are the very like bleeding edge of the bounds of your relationship. That might just be a smart idea.

Okay, when I was 5 months pregnant, my husband was on a work trip and took naked pictures of a random girl he met at a bar.

At least it wasn't, you know, his longtime friend. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Took naked pictures of a random girl he met at a bar in her bathroom after going back to her house with her and her friends. He called me that night and said he was being a wingman for his friend and coworkers who were single and was so proud of himself for telling me and being honest. He got upset that I got mad about him for going in the first place. Bruh.

Cheating and gaslighting.

What is this, like, all this wingman shit?

The only way—

What freaking excuse is this? No, I wasn't cheating, I was just doing it for my friend.

Yeah, if you set the—

I think.

If you set the— you took naked pictures alone with her in her bathroom, part aside, and it's like, oh yeah, I was with my friend, you know, I was with my coworkers, and one or two of them were single. And, you know, so like we met, you know, we met these people and then we went back to their house. I can see a vague argument. At a certain point though, in a long-term relationship, I can also see that, yo, just go back to your hotel room "Go to sleep. Be smart. Your wife is pregnant. Don't be an idiot." But I can understand the being a wing person for your friends. If it was like, "Oh, we were trying to help my friend out who had been single for a really long time and was hitting it off with this person." I can kind of understand that. But that is not what happened here. You Yeah, you were taking naked pictures of somebody.

Just no. Just no, buddy.

This is just gross and not cool.

It kills me that he was proud of himself for sharing. Like, what? I mean, I'm glad that he shared and came clean. Otherwise, she probably never would have known. But like, on what planet do you think you get brownie points for this?

Yeah, I mean, I hope that this— I mean, I don't think that this is the the foundation for a successful relationship. I'm so sorry because you were 5 months pregnant at the time.

I don't know— I'm sorry.

—how far along you are or how old your kid is. I'm so sorry that this happened. And yeah, I mean, unless your partner is able to take full accountability for what happened and understand how what they said to you afterwards was very extremely manipulative and gaslighty, and how wrong that was given the situation and really take some ownership and taking steps so that things like this do not, cannot happen.

Yeah.

Um, this is not the recipe for long-term success or trust or love connection, anything. All right, on to the next one. He went to the gym and became friends with this woman. They got close and so did I would hang out with her one-on-one. She would sometimes drop him back home from the gym, 'cause he doesn't have a car. Never thought it was weird, till he opened up and talked about his past sexual experiences, like seemingly a therapy talk, but I still found this to be too much and crossing a line. Then one day he said at the gym that he'd fuck her. He meant as like a friend joshing around kind of comment. She felt triggered from her past and stopped going to the gym. She stopped wanting to see me. Now, a year later, she wants to talk to him about it to clear the air. Can't tell if I can deal with them going back to being friends.

Okay, this is weird. All right, let's break this down into pieces. I think telling somebody that you would fuck them, that feels like it crosses a line for me. And I don't care if you're joking about it or not. And again, for some couples, this is gonna be like, that's super hot, I don't care, whatever.

The thing I can't tell is, was the the person writing it, was she there at the time, or is this like he found out later? I can't tell. You know, it's sort of like, "Oh, like I'd hit that," or like, "Oh, you know, if this were 10 years ago," like, or, you know, "If I met you at a bar." I don't know. Like, it's not great. It is really not.

It's not great.

It's not great at all.

It's not like the worst thing in the world, but it's not great.

What I'm trying to gauge is like, is it like she finds out later that he's like, "Oh yeah, I'd fuck you at the gym," but he swears that he meant it in a friend-joshing kind of way. Or like, were you there and you were like, "Yeah, it was not a smart thing to say, but it wasn't like, 'Yeah, I'd like to go to the bathroom and have sex with you right now.'" It was in a different way. To me, those feel a little different. Like, is she backing him up on this? Like, "I wish he hadn't said that, but it wasn't like, to me, it wasn't like across the line, but I can understand how that was triggering for the woman who received it." Yeah. That I can't tell. It seems like she's a little bit kind of like not super upset with him about all of that. It's more her— the question is, I can't tell if I can deal with them going back to being friends, which is a valid concern.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's fine in this scenario for this person to say, to like draw a line and say, yeah, I don't want you to be friends with this person. Also because like the woman herself got, you know, felt uncomfortable clearly.

Yeah.

Like she broke off contact with both of them. I do think like if I was in this scenario, I would probably give my partner permission to have a conversation with her because it sounds like she's wanting to clear the air and maybe like say like, hey, that really upset me that you did that. I thought we were friends. You crossed a line. I think he owes her an apology and I'd be fine with that, but yeah, the idea of like the two of them becoming friends again, it could feel a little less uncomfortable. But I want to talk about the talking about sex with another person. I think this is going to be a real hot button issue for people that a lot of people are going to disagree with. Personally— I, and this is probably because this is our profession, you know, we talk about sex a lot and we wind up talking about sex with a lot of different people once they find out what we do.

Is this a bad time for me to tell you that I'm actually really uncomfortable with that and I want us to stop?

We talk about sex with a lot of people, so I personally don't think that talking about sex with somebody is cheating. Of course, it's all about the intent. Like if you're talking about, "Here's what I would do to you if we fucked," yes, that's That's not cool. But if it's kind of processing— like she said, like, it seemed like a therapy talk. Like, yeah, here were some experiences that I had in the past, or like, here are things that I, you know, have struggled with, in the same sort of way that you might talk about relationship challenges.

Mm-hmm.

Like, yeah, I've really struggled to be vulnerable, or I struggle with communication, you know, something like that. I don't think— Just straight up the idea of talking about sex with another person crosses a line.

Yeah, I mean, here's a great example. Like, let's say that they were at the gym together. I don't know where the person writing in is in all this, if she's like always at the gym with him or not, but whatever, set that aside. Let's just say that like they're at the gym and they're friends and they're talking. I could see a scenario like this happening. What if she's like, she's like, "Oh, I was, you know, I was like out on a date, I was like, you know," "Hey, I was, you know, on a date with someone last night, and we like, you know, went home afterwards, and we started having sex, and he lost his erection, and like, I didn't know what to do." And then the guy goes, "Oh yeah, you know, that's really tough. Like, that's happened to me before. You know, here, like, here's, you know, here, oh yeah, like, here's a couple examples of times that that happened to me, and here's how I handled it, or here's how I felt about it." Like, that doesn't feel inappropriate, per se. Like, I feel like you're doing this person a service if you feel like you have a good way to handle that. I mean, because it's like, we tend to shy away from these challenging conversations. That's literally why we do what we do. And it's like, if you feel like you have some value to add to help somebody feel more comfortable with something, then absolutely go ahead and share it. If— Yeah. Your partner is on board with that. If your partner is like, I do not want anybody ever knowing anything positive or negative about our sex life, then that's an understandable perspective for someone to have. But I do think you also have to evaluate, hey, do I feel like, do I feel like that's something that I can deal with long term if I believe something really different? So it's like, yeah, I could see an example like that where it's like, you know, you're just trying to relate with someone and she had maybe a tough experience and you're trying to like help her understand what happened and give some examples from your own sex life, then I would say no problem. But yeah, it's really hard to tell from this question. Do you wish you had more fun in your relationship?

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Okay.

Did you know that couples who get better sleep have more sex?

I mean, the more sleep I get, the more up for it I certainly am the next day.

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Hey, I can see the text message. Hey, letter U. You still come the same. Still come the same.

He said, if we were both single, I would show you.

Gross. I mean, yeah, she shouldn't have asked that and he absolutely should not have responded that.

She's married, by the way. The conversation also spoke about sex drives where she asked about mine. Girl! Oh my God. And he told her it was low and he would prefer it 5 times a day.

Whoa, big daddy.

Also, I found these in deleted messages, over 400 messages. Oh no, this is not good.

I mean, yeah, he clearly knows that he shouldn't be having this conversation.

He's deleted all the messages. Yeah. This is a no. This is a hard no.

No, hot doggy. It's a no for me unless—

This is a pretty—

Unless this is a part of your relationship that we like sending flirty, sexy messages to other people.

I don't think so. Not if she's sending this in.

I agree. I agree.

This is a great example of like talking about sex, that this is like a bad example of that versus having more of like a therapy type of conversation with a friend.

Yeah, this is flirtatious.

Yeah. Like, what would it be like if we were fucking each other kind of thing.

So you're effectively sexting each other.

Yes. You're definitely sexting each other. Yeah, the bottom line here with this one is this just feels like inappropriate, unnecessary conversation. I hate that the other woman is like bringing up trying to compare like your sex drives, which is super weird. And yeah, this is definitely something that feels like it crosses the line.

Masturbation in general, I genuinely struggle to find my own feelings on this. I don't think it's a clear yes or a clear no. I think you're entitled to explore your body and have a relationship with yourself. And I also think that your partner should get an opportunity to connect and that masturbation shouldn't be the default. I'd rather be in a relationship that prioritizes amazing sex together.

Yeah, okay.

My first question is, what is the relationship with masturbation in your relationship? Because I assume there's sex. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be the default. I'm wondering if it is turning into the default for one or both of you.

Well, I think this is a really great topic that all couples should talk about. What is the role of masturbation in our relationship? You know, we've shared before that I feel really strongly that we can't 100% police each other's masturbation. Like, somebody's entitled to have a relationship with their own body. Just because you're in a relationship doesn't mean that you never get to have your own experience with your own body ever again. Now, that being said, there absolutely are ways that masturbation can be unhealthy within a relationship if that's the default activity, like the main thing that you're going to— if you're choosing to masturbate over choosing to be with your partner on a consistent basis, if you're consistently turning your partner down for sex but then going to masturbate by yourself. Yeah. If you're masturbating in ways that are like actually harmful to your sex life. Like there can be a lot of complications there. So I think that good general rule of thumb would be to make sure you're prioritizing your intimate connection together over masturbating. So when you feel the impulse to masturbate, to ask yourself like, could I go invite my partner to be intimate with me instead? And it's okay if like sometimes Like, they're different experiences. Sometimes we don't feel up to partnered sex, but we wanna masturbate because it'll help us get to sleep faster, or it's just like a quick little release, or trying to relieve some stress, something like that. So it's not always like this one-for-one, you know, I'm choosing to masturbate, but that means that I am not choosing to have sex with my partner. But I think in general, trying more often than not to be intimate with your partner, or at least inviting them to be intimate.

And if your partner's like, hey, I'm not in the mood right now, "Great, go masturbate." Yeah, or I think a key red flag is if you are finding that one person is initiating sex and the other person is regularly turning them down because they've just masturbated or they're not in the mood, they're not up for, they're not capable of having sex because they have recently masturbated, then that is probably a great sign that there is not a healthy relationship with masturbation or there's just unclear, you know, there's an unclear arrangement about how and when sex is prioritized.

Okay, let's do some rapid fires. We got a bunch of responses that weren't necessarily like longer stories, but we can just give our quick hot takes on them. Sending late-night text messages to a longtime friend/co-worker that I can't sleep. "not cheating." Is it like the person is sending, "I can't sleep," or are they sending, "My partner can't sleep"?

Oh yeah.

The partner is writing it in saying that I can't sleep.

I think that's supposed to be quotes. I think it's supposed to be, "I can't sleep." The person texting is saying that they can't sleep.

Yeah.

So I would say, in and of itself, it is not cheating. It is getting dangerously close close to putting yourself in an unnecessary situation.

Yeah.

But I mean, it's like, is that the only thing? Are they somehow like sleep accountability buddies or something? Like, but yeah, like, I'm so interested in why the question is about that part of the text messages. Like, what else? What else is going on in these text messages? We've talked about it for too long. What's your yes or no?

Not cheating, but knock it off.

Flying too close to the sun.

Yeah.

All right, masturbating while thinking about someone other than your spouse.

Not cheating, but I think that you should be careful about this.

Potentially problematic.

Yeah, potentially problematic. I would apply the golden rule here. Like, how would you feel knowing your partner was thinking about about somebody else while masturbating. Like, I think this can be okay. Like, sometimes you just have a random fantasy, like, comes into your mind. Sometimes it's about, like, a celebrity or, you know, a movie character or something like that. I think who it is can take on different— like, if you're like— Your best friend. You're thinking about my sister or, like, my best friend, then that's like, oh no, please don't do that. But if it's, yeah, if it's a celebrity or something like that that you know that there's, you know, never a chance that person's gonna meet, and the general idea of not thinking about, like thinking about someone other than your spouse, I think that's really the golden rule thing here. How would you feel knowing that your partner was doing that?

And also, it can be dangerous to your own sex drive, basically, if you are, like your own sexuality, I think, if you find that the only way that I'm able to get aroused or the only way that I'm able to orgasm is with this very specific fantasy about this person, that is probably a good sign that you've kind of like created an overly worn neural pathway that isn't going to be beneficial to you. So probably start— try to do some work to unwind that.

Sleeping with a mutual friend 3 days after ending our 4-year relationship.

Well, it's definitely not cheating because your relationship is over.

Yeah. Hurtful. Yeah, I would totally be hurt in a scenario like this, but it's not cheating. You guys were broken.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I feel this sounds to me like probably just confirmation of why you broke up with this person.

Well, it sounds like the person probably broke up with them to then go have sex with the friend.

Confirmation as to why you should long-term be glad that this is over. I know that you can't 4 days later, 3 days later, be like, "Oh, I'm so glad that I got dumped." But like, you know, it's a nail in the coffin. Having a dating app to make friends, but never meeting these friends in person.

I think being on a dating app when you're in a relationship is cheating.

Yeah, I would say cheating unless you very explicitly have been like, yeah, we're, that's super hot and we're both into that.

Yeah. An old hookup from years ago slid into my DMs to flirt. I flirted back, but we never met up. The club. You admitted you're flirting. You're flirting with somebody.

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's at the very least, it is some degree of emotional infidelity.

I don't know though.

Is it like infidelity is like maybe too far of— it's such a great— it's, I guess I would probably say, yeah, technically it is not cheating, but it is highly questionable.

I have to take back my hot take from the beginning of the episode.

Yeah, I was actually kind of surprised. I was kind of surprised by that one. That's why I added my caveat of, well, assuming you've really had all the conversations, yeah, it should be black and white, but—

No, no, no. What I meant to say is, okay, cheating is not black and white, but—

Physical?

Doing dumb shit is more black and white.

Oh, okay, okay.

Than most of most of us give it credit, like most of us think it is. Like just don't do stuff like this. Come on, people. Okay, but I will say though, I don't necessarily think that flirting is cheating. I think that it really depends. There are a lot of shades of flirting. Like I think just being friendly with somebody and kind of batting your lashes and smiling, like I think that that that's a fun way to like bring the zing into daily life and then you bring that energy home with you to be with your partner. Like I think that can be really, like innocent flirting. I think there can be innocent flirting and then there's flirting where it's like, what are you doing? Come on, don't, you know, like talking about do you still cum the same and oh, if we were, you know, I'd show you, da da da.

Yeah, getting into specifics.

Yeah, there's definitely, some stuff here. So, but I think in general I tend to go a little bit more on the side of like flirting is, is okay as long as you're, as long as you are aware of what your intentions are. If you're like, I'm just, you know, being a little flirty energy into my day-to-day life, like that's fine versus like I'm trying to flirt with somebody because I want them to want me or I want to see if they're open to hooking up with me, like obviously.

Well, I mean arguably the guy that took the naked, the nude pictures while he was being the wingperson, yeah, could claim, well, my intention was to be just a wingperson, and you know, my like horny single friend needed these nude pictures and was too drunk to take them himself, so I had to do it.

Sending and receiving nudes from other people. Okay, see, this is where I should have said my, my hot take. Like, just don't do this, guys. Come on. Sending and receiving nudes.

Well, I can't control if people people want to send them to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, meeting up for lunch with an old partner and not telling your spouse about it.

It's not cheating, but that's not advisable. I wouldn't—

Just tell them. Why wouldn't you tell them?

Yeah, why don't you want to tell? Like, it's the why don't you want to tell them that is a problem.

There's no issue with meeting up, you know, for lunch with an old partner.

I mean, I assume the reason you didn't tell them is because you thought that they would not be okay with it and you wanted to be able to do it. Even if it's just for reconciliation or you know that nothing is going to happen, but you don't want to be in the situation where then your partner forbids you. Replying to a girl's IG story with fire emoji and what is it? The drooling emoji.

No, don't do it. Don't do it. I'm not— no.

Yeah, I mean, not cheating, but just don't. Don't do it.

This is the theme of the episode. It's not cheating, but just don't.

Just don't.

I'm straight, but I was drunk in Vegas and pecked a girl on the lips. I love this. I love that it was just a peck.

I just say that depends on what your partner thinks about that one.

Oh, I say straight up not cheating.

A peck?

She's straight. It was just a peck.

Yeah, okay. Texting an ex and reminiscing about their previous sex life together. Don't do it. I mean, that's kind of getting into the—

That's cheating. Yeah. Paying to sext with strangers. He will even send pics. I want to know like—

He will even? Like, that's what he's paying to do.

What is this app where you like pay to sext with strangers? It's kind of cracking me up.

Someone's just making out like a bandit from that.

Sex with strangers app. This is cheating.

Yeah, yeah.

Come on, guys.

Using toys alone when you agreed to only use them together.

Not cheating.

Not cheating, but you are breaking a relationship. Like, like you're being unfaithful to the rules of your relationship if you have agreed that that's not something—

I think that's a dumb rule. Why, like, you can't make a rule that said you can only use this toy with me. That's weird. That's weird to me. But I'm, I'm curious. What do other people think? Okay, those are our hot takes. Would love to hear your thoughts. Do you agree? Do you disagree with us? You can leave comments on Spotify or on YouTube. By the way, our full videos of these episodes are on YouTube. A lot of people don't know that. Or you can come over to Instagram. We're @VanessaMarin and @ZanderSandler. I'm sure we'll have a post up about this episode. Let us know what you agree and disagree with and feel free to send us a submission too. I think we will probably continue doing these episodes. Is this cheating part 4? And if you can't get enough of this topic, you can go back and listen to parts 1 and 2.

Yeah, if y'all keep cheating, we'll keep doing these episodes.

I mean, please stop cheating and please stop doing bad things that you know are going to set yourself up.

Yeah, we really want to decrease the incidence of cheating. Incidence of cheating within our community. That would be great. So just stop.

All right, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.