E268: Ask Us Anything: Only Fans, The Ick, & Creeps In The Comments

Okay, but do we talk during sex? About the weather, about dinner, about like when our next date is.

About work, you know. No, we do not. Dirty talk, yes. Sometimes me a bit more.

One of us forces the other.

Though I've been encouraging Vanessa to talk a little more. I ask her some more pointed questions now.

I love talking during sex. I love hearing talking during sex. Sometimes I'm a little like, You're like a podcast listener.

You're like, yeah, I just like to have it in my ear.

Yeah.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are getting a little messy, maybe.

Are we?

A little nosy. We put out a question, put up a question box on Instagram saying we want to do an ask us anything style episode. Episode and like feel free to be a little nosy. Ask us questions. What do you want to know about us? Like how do you want to get to know us better? And you guys sent some good ones.

Yeah, I really— you wanna, you wanna get to the bottom of some stuff.

Some funny ones, some sweet ones, some— a lot of nosy ones.

Very personal ones.

We gave permission to go ahead and be nosy. I think we like, we like to model vulnerability. We know that our work is asking you to be vulnerable in your relationship. So we like to go first and show you like we can be vulnerable too.

Yeah, and sex doesn't have to be big and scary.

So, uh, we are gonna be going through your questions and giving you our raw, honest, unfiltered answers. Our team member helped us put together this list. She went through the question box and grabbed the ones that she thought were most interesting, and we took a quick peek to just make sure there wasn't anything Untoured. Yeah, really over the top. I don't think we actually deleted any questions. So we're going to go into it.

Yeah, let's do it. Okay.

What is your favorite time of day to have sex?

I'm going to say afternoon.

I am also afternoon.

Yeah. So like, honestly, I don't know if we've really ever experimented much with like late morning. We definitely have had some morning sex here and there, mostly driven by me. Um, you know, if you were waking up with morning wood type of situation, and it is fun because it's like, it kind of feels like you're just ready to go, and it can be kind of— that can be fun. But yeah, I agree, like, you know, Vanessa, Vanessa's experience of that is it's not as nearly as good for her, or her orgasms are I would love to have morning sex.

I think it's a fun way to start your day. It kind of just like gives you this pep in your step all throughout the day. Like, oh yeah, I'm ahead already. Yeah, we did that already. So I, on paper, would love to have morning sex, but my body just does not respond to it very well. Like sensations feel muted. It just doesn't feel as good. And we're doing the exact same things, but it's just, not having the exact same impact on me.

And honestly, for me, it's more of a novelty or an excitement. It's like, oh, like, I have this erection, let's use it. But if I'm being really honest, my experience is also not nearly as good as I know that it can be later in the day. And, you know, there's also like, you know, the fact that pretty much no matter what, first thing in the morning, like, I need to pee pretty bad. Like, if I need to pee, like, I cannot last for very long. It's like just added pressure. It's so weird.

I don't in that area.

I don't know if other guys are like that. I've noticed I need to, like, I prefer to have an empty bladder when we're having sex. Um, I feel like I'm able to have more control.

I prefer to have a, not like full, like I have to pee, but if my bladder is on the more full side, I have noticed sometimes that I feel more sensitive.

Gives you a little boost.

Yeah. Okay. And then evening sex, we actually highly discourage Or like nighttime. Yeah, like late nighttime sex. Most of us have this idea in our heads that we have sex at the very end of the night. It's like you get ready for bed, you crawl into bed together, and then that's the time that you're supposed to have sex. I think that's how we see it most often on TV and in the movies, so it just gives us that vibe. But I think that is the worst time to have sex because you're already tired, you're already wanting, like wishing you had gotten into bed earlier, wanting to have more sleep than you're going to get. And it's really, really hard to get super excited about having sex in that moment.

Yeah. And on top of that, unless you do have sex, you're basically ensuring that if one person is not on board, then at the very least you have to wait until tomorrow versus like, you know, there's definitely times where one of us might initiate sex earlier in the day or something and one person is not so into it right then. But then a couple hours later, like, your mind might change or you might feel better or we might have a conversation. Hey, like, could I do anything to support you in being more open to this later on? You know, maybe early evening or something like that. So it's like there are, there's more opportunities for things to actually work out in your favor if you are initiating respectfully earlier in the day. At night, at the end of the night, you're basically guaranteeing at the very least this is getting pushed off until tomorrow. And if typically the only time you ever initiate is then, it means, well, I'm almost guaranteeing this is getting pushed off until tomorrow night, at which point, unless it is 100% yes, then it's going to be again another day.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So for us, afternoon ends up working out the best. Obviously, like, we work together, we work from home, so we have this flexibility in our schedule to have it in the afternoon if we want to, which I realize not all people have. But for us, it just feels like It's like a nice break in the day. We both have energy. It doesn't feel like we're running up against the clock or anything like that. It just feels more spacious, more spacious time to do it.

Yeah. All right. Well, let's take it up a notch. Have you guys ever been to a swingers or sex club? I mean, swingers club, no.

Swingers club, no.

I haven't at least. Have you?

We lived close to one when we were in Berlin.

Oh yeah.

Zwanglos.

Zwanglos 1 and 2.

I think we were near Zwanglos 2. I have no idea where Zwanglos 1 was.

The Google reviews— I love the name.

The Google reviews on Zwanglos were not encouraging. Let's put it that way. Okay.

I mean, I think overall what I want to say is we are a whole lot less kinky than I think most people assume.

Well, one, to be super clear, we are not swingers. We're just not. As much as many people out there would love us to be, we're not.

We're not swingers.

At least not yet.

People hear like, oh, a sex therapist, or they have this sex therapy business.

And I think they must love having sex with everyone.

Yeah.

Your brains just like go to the extreme. They must like, they must be swingers and they go to group sex parties all the time and they're super kinky and they do all this crazy stuff. And like, there is zero judgment around that. Like we have friends that are swingers. We have friends that are super kinky. We love that. We want everybody to explore and, you know, find the vibe that works for them. But just because we run this business doesn't doesn't mean that we are having sex with everybody. So no, we have not. We are not swingers. We are in a monogamous relationship. We have not ever brought another person into our sex life. However, however, we did. So we lived in Berlin for a couple of years, and in Berlin, music clubs have— music club and sex club, the line is murky. Like, they're kind of both.

So it depends on the— it depends on the place, but there are— there's a lot of gray area at a lot of the— at a lot of clubs.

So the places that we went to, and that was a heavy partying phase of our life for us, so we did a lot of clubbing. We had a lot of like friends that were DJs. It was just— it's a different kind of vibe in Berlin too. Like, we would go during the day, um, but most of the places that we went to in Berlin had areas of the club that were sex clubs. They called it a dark room that you could just go into and have sex with people. And so sex was deeply entwined in the clubbing scene in Berlin.

Yeah, however, we have never partaken.

Yeah, we did not personally— we have not personally ever partaken. That sounds weird. Partake. We did not partook.

Partooth. Um, we did not partake.

Yeah, the spaces themselves were like not places that I wanted to have sex in.

Yeah, I think that that's— I think that's the thing is that, you know, for some, the idea of having sex in a public space or maybe in a, a space that is a little dirtier or grimier, that, that there's an excitement to that. And hell yeah, if that's you, like, more power to you. That's awesome. And, you know, definitely sometimes I, I wish like, oh, it would be fun and hot if I were into that more because there would be a lot more possibility for certain, you know, exploring certain things or having fun in certain ways. But at the end of the day, I don't find my— I'm not like, oh yeah, cool, this like kind of dark room, but I don't know when it's been cleaned last. I'm like, you know, not that I'm a clean freak by any means, but you know, I'm just like, you know, I know that we could just go home and have great sex. And it's not— I'm not like, oh my God, I'm missing out if I don't do it right here, right now.

All right, Xander, do you ever plan on becoming a sex therapist too? Not really, but I have some thoughts, but I'll let you answer it first.

Well, okay. I mean, they're technically speaking, as of, as of today, there is no governing body on who is and who is not a sex therapist. There's no—

you're a sex therapist.

Yeah. So to be, to be like a psychotherapist, a marriage and family therapist, a, um, was it CSW, like sort of what it's like, or like social worker, like a social worker, or you know, any, any other kind of specialist therapist, there are governing bodies where you need to pass a licensing exam and have a certain amount of education before you can call yourself a certain thing and put those letters at the end of your name.

So many hours.

And yes, many, many hours. It really does.

So many hours.

You're like a good portion of your life to that craft. Now, for better or for worse, honestly, probably more for worse. When it comes to sex therapy, there is no governing body.

There are no letters, you know, like, well, there is, there is, but it's not a, not a like nationwide government.

Yes. You know, as the sort of everyday regular guy in our business, I like having the everyday person's perspective. That being said, having worked with Vanessa Marin for many, many, many years now and covering all of these topics, I feel like I am part of the way there from, from like a knowledge perspective. I obviously, I don't have the clinical experience. That's not something that I have. And it's not something that I'm like, like wishing that I could go back to school to get necessarily. That being said, I definitely have some interest possibly in the future of maybe working with some men, maybe some groups of men to talk about, you know, interesting topics such as, you know, what is masculinity in today's day and age and how does that integrate with the way our lives look today versus, you know, the way that our lives have looked way back in history from an evolutionary perspective. Like, so who knows? Who knows?

This is something that I'm actually really curious to ask you, dear listener, about, because like, I see a number of different possibilities here. I do think a lot of people relate to Xander just being a regular dude and saying like, yeah, I don't have any training in this. I'm not a specialist. I'm not a professional because I think sometimes like we love knowing that somebody has that professional expertise and education and training, but also sometimes when we hear somebody talk about being a professional, sometimes we can tune them out a little bit.

Well, it's like, oh, of course they don't have a problem with that because they're really good at it. Yeah.

But when we hear from a regular person just saying, hey, I've, I've been through this and here's me being vulnerable and here's what worked for me and what didn't work for me, I think sometimes just on a human to human level, we relate to that more. So I love that we have this balance of, yes, I can tell people I'm a licensed psychotherapist, I have a master's degree, I've spent thousands of hours training, I've spent thousands of hours doing clinical work, and we have somebody who's a regular person, and we've been together for 19 years, and here's what we've learned and what we've been through. So I love that balance. And at the same time, I also think like, oh, how cool would that be to have a couple where we're both have some sort of training or expertise in this. Like, it would take it to another level that we could, you know, talk about things with even more nuance and even more, I don't know, layers and details. So I actually have two questions for you, listener. Like, what do you think would change if Xander was also a therapist or had some sort of certification or training or something like that? Um, what would feel better? What would feel worse for you?

Would we feel more or less legit? Yeah, if I was a sex therapist, or more or less relatable too.

And then two, I'm also curious to know what you think about Xander leading groups specifically for men like he discussed. This is something I will— I'll, I'll let you guys in on a little behind the scenes over here. For years now, I have been trying to convince Xander to lead a men's group. I think that Xander has learned so much in his own life journey, and I'm not saying like, not from a perspective of like, Xander has all the answers and he's gonna teach other men how to be good men, but I just think that men are desperate for spaces where they can talk openly and vulnerably with other men. As women, we are given societal permission to be emotional, to have like deeply intimate relationships with our female friends. I think we talked about this in a podcast episode a couple weeks ago. So as women, like, I have deeply intimate friendships where I can share like anything and everything, and they're so life-giving. And I think there's some study that I think we were quoting that Something like 50% of men said that they don't have very many friends.

Or possibly any.

Yeah. Or I think 25% of men said they don't have any friends and 50% said like, I feel like I don't have very many. I might be getting the numbers wrong, but it was just mind-boggling. And I think men are desperate to have these kinds of conversations with men. And I think that you have learned. A lot just in life, in your, you know, sobriety journey too. Like, a lot of really incredible things. I think you could hold space for men in a really nice way. But then that— so that brings up a little bit of discomfort for Xander. I think a little bit of it feels really vulnerable. And maybe it also loops around to this training thing. Like, you're like, well, I'm not a therapist. I don't— you know, I think you're really respectful about it. You're like, I don't want to take on something that I feel like I don't have the training or the education. And so I get all of that, and I would never say like, let's advertise this as like Xander's therapy group since you're not a therapist. Like, that would be unethical, and you know, so it's not that. But I think that there's a way that you could do something like that and say like, hey, this is not therapy, I am not a therapist, but I'm still like creating this group. Versus maybe if you were a therapist or you had some sort of training, I don't know if that would make you feel more comfortable doing it. It's like, yeah, those, those two things are intertwined with each other in a really interesting way.

Yeah. So dear listener.

Dear listener, let us know.

Let us know what you think.

I mean, it's just, yeah, it reminds me of how long it took me to convince you to do content with me. Xander started in, I started this business on my own. I brought Xander in to do the operations side. So he was working on the backend, all the logistics. And it took me years to get him to agree to do the content with me. Cause it was the same thing. Like I'm not a therapist. I don't have the training that you do. Nobody wants to hear from me. I don't have anything valuable to contribute. And it took me many years to convince you that like, no, that's the whole point. And like, you do have a value. You do have things that like people want to hear. And I feel like it's a kind of similar process here where it's like, I'm caught between, I don't want to push you to do something that you don't feel comfortable doing. But I also like, I have this vision and I can see it and I can see the impact that it could have. And I do kind of want to push you to do it. We were literally just talking about this, what, yesterday, 2 days ago, I think during the dog walk. So, well, we'll just toss it out there. We'll leave it for our listeners. We would honestly like truly would love to hear from you. So you could leave a Spotify comment. You could come DM us on Instagram. We're @vanessainzander. Just say like, you know, wanted to give you feedback on what you said on the podcast.

Yeah. Are you a man who would want to talk about man stuff?

With Xander.

With me and maybe others.

Or do you think, would you send your husband to go talk to Xander?

No, I'm not.

No, don't send your husband.

I'm not doing like. He would have to agree. Yeah, no, I'm not like working with people that don't want to be working together. This is guys that want to.

Yeah, I framed that the wrong way. Like maybe if you're a woman listener who's like, oh yeah, my husband doesn't listen to the podcast. He doesn't follow you guys. But like, I think that he would actually like love to do something like that. That's what I meant.

Great.

All right, we'll move on. I can see Xander giving me the eyes. He's like, mm. I swear on my life I did not plan this, but I am wearing my brand new Quince cardigan and I get to talk about Quince. I'm so excited. This is their 100% organic cotton cropped cardigan in heather brown. I think it is so cute. I was so excited when it came in. It's super soft, really cozy. Cozy. I've been trying to wear more natural fibers and to get 100% organic. And this was $49.

Damn.

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Oh yeah.

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Have we ever thought about filming how-to slash real tutorials for some of your guides? Like a real premium service?

We are not ever going to do that. We are not going to start an OnlyFans. We are not going to do video tutorials of ourselves. You are not ever going to see us. You are not ever going to see us having sex. Sorry, not sorry. It's never going to happen. We always get it. We only ever get this question from men. And it loops into the next question that we have. How do you handle the creeps in your comment section?

Well, we put their questions in our podcast. No, I'm not. If you ask this question, you're not a creep. This is asked in a very respectful way.

I think there's a slight creepy vibe behind it.

Yeah. I mean, you do clearly want to see us.

You want to see us having sex.

And the answer is firmly no.

So the creep thing is interesting to me because I like— we absolutely have gotten very creepy comments. This is not a— the way that this one was written was not creepy, like on the surface at all. We have definitely gotten much creepier comments about my looks, my body, what people want to do to me. Never any creepy comments about you.

Well, no. There was a derogatory comment about my looks compared to your looks. It's like, how is she with this guy?

That wasn't creepy, that was just mean. They're like, you're at least a 7, but he's a 3. And of course, that was on Instagram. And of course, when you click through, her profile was all like, love everybody, kindness wins. I was like, what the hell? You just were so brutal to us. But no, that wasn't creepy. So, okay. Yes, we do get a fair amount of creepy messages. They have, they significantly decreased once Xander started participating in the podcast. Yeah, huge forcer. But I like, it's actually kind of interesting. I think that people being creeps is really just a sign of how much shame and taboo is wrapped up around sex.

Oh yeah.

That people don't feel comfortable with their own desires. It feels like this forbidden,, you know, naughty bad thing. And because we don't have healthy outlets for our sexuality or like healthy ways of talking about it, it ends up coming out in this shadowy side of being gross and creepy and, you know, all that. So that's a whole other much longer conversation for a different day.

Well, let's get down to it. How do we handle creeps in the comments? We usually just block them. You get blocked. We just block them.

Yeah.

That's that. You should see our block list. There's thousands of people on the block list.

Yeah. We have our customer service team does a first pass in our DM inbox for us. And so they send messages over to the main inbox for us to answer from like genuine questions and people trying to connect. But if there's any, so they see the creepy things. So don't even bother sending us creepy stuff because our employee is going to get it, not us. But they have full permission to just do a quick block if anything gives them weird vibes. If anything feels off, they just block.

Speaking of weird vibes, let's actually, we'll skip one ahead.

Oh, I was like, why is that one weird vibe?

Then we'll go back to that one. So speaking of, yeah, here, you ruined my transition. I thought that this number 7 was coming up next and I was like, oh shoot, there's one above it. Speaking of weird vibes, has Xander ever given you the ick and what was it for? And vice versa.

You have definitely given me the ick and I'm sure I've given you the ick. But we, I actually, I don't like the term the ick because I think people use it way too definitively. They use it as like, oh, somebody gave me the ick and now there's no coming back from that. Like you've turned me off and you will never turn me on again.

It's a way to almost like push the responsibility onto the other person too. Or it's like, where it's like, like, you did that to me, you are disgust— like, you're disgusting, you should know better. And I now, because you've given me the ick, like, I don't have to say shit to you.

Yeah.

And it's kind of like, it's a way to bypass, like, you having to take responsibility for the fact that, oh, huh, something that this person did is making me feel a certain way, and now I worry that I might need to say, like, like I might need to say, hey, I don't love it when you do that. And ick is like this weird societal excuse that we have for not having to deal with our own issues when it comes to, oh, something is kind of turning me off and it's kind of on me if I want that to change, to say something about it and have a challenging conversation where I might have to admit there might be something a little vain about me.

I also, I don't like the concept of the ick because I think we are all icky. Like, we're all human. We all do things that turn our partner off that are weird. And I actually think that's part of intimacy. That's part of being in a relationship with somebody is that we can let our guard down with each other and be human around each other. So I don't wanna be in a relationship where I am constantly being evaluated. Or am I being sexy enough? Am I turning you on enough? Am I avoiding ever doing anything that could possibly turn you off.

Am I following the anti-ick checklist to a T at all times?

So for example, there are certain things that have given me the ick that I have talked to you about, like burping is something that—

Oh yeah, well, but no, but let's get into all the ones you haven't told me about.

No, I want to walk through this example. Like burping is something that it does bother me and it does turn me off. And so I've had conversations with you saying like, hey, Hey, look, I get sometimes burping is just a bodily function and it's going to come out, but I really would appreciate if you made an effort to go into the other room or to turn your face away instead of doing it in my face so I smell it. So I have brought stuff like that up with you. But then there are other things that you do where I'm like, ugh, yeah, that's weird. But I'm like, that's just you being human. And I don't want to— tell you to change that. It's just a moment. Okay. So for example, you gave me the ick this morning.

Again?

You were. Oh. Can I say?

Well, I didn't. It was something I ate. It's not, that's not my fault.

Oh no.

That's a different moment. The sausage's fault.

That's a different moment.

Oh great.

That does give me the ick.

Oh, all right. Let's go. What was it?

Xander eats these breakfast sausages that like the sausages themselves smell really good. They're like good sausages.

They're delicious.

But on his breath, they're are insane. Like, it's just the most—

it's magic—

intense, overpowering, overwhelming smell. And I can like smell them so strongly.

It's just chicken sausage.

Yeah, but that, that is another example. Like, they're good sausages. I don't care enough to tell you like, you can't ever eat those sausages, or like, you have to brush your teeth every time you eat the sausage. Um, no, you gave me the ick one.

Okay, let's hear it.

You're peeing and you're on your phone. At the same time and then you like, you finish peeing and you just stand there with your dick in your hand and your phone in your hand for like a long time and your little butt crack's hanging out too because you pulled your shorts down. All right. Just like a little bit of butt crack.

I think I was there solo and then you walked in.

I don't know about that. Yeah, I don't know. I think you walked in, but yeah.

I just got to get all the pee out.

Oh, you just stand there for a long time on your phone. And I'm like, dude, just put your dick away and go watch your phone somewhere else. But again, it's like, that's just you being human. I use the phone when I'm on the toilet too. So it's just a thing. I don't really care enough to ask you to stop doing that. So I think we need to normalize the ick. Can we say that?

Yeah. Or it's like, can we move on? Can we move past the ick? I think it's really immature when people are like, He did this one time and now I can never see him the same. I'm like, you've got a problem internally that you might need to address or else this is just going to keep happening to you. If someone can do something one time and I'm not saying like, yes, maybe someone does a horrible thing where it's like you see something about their character. Sometimes you can't unsee that. But it's like if someone does something, oh, they made a weird movement with their arm and now all of a sudden I can never see them the same.

Yeah.

I'm like, huh, what is going on inside of you that is causing you to have this outsized reaction? So yeah, I think the thing is, yes, we can get the ick. You know, my— the one that jumps to mind for Vanessa is the way that you, when you get a bug bite, Vanessa is so funny. Like usually I'm more of the complainer in our relationship about like, oh, this hurts or this is annoying, blah, blah, blah. When Vanessa gets a mosquito bite, she will be complaining about it for like a week or more.

I think I just get more itchy.

Like multiple times every day. And then she will just start itching it like nonstop. Like, and she'll just stare at me while she's itching. Like while she's like deriving this kind of like sick pleasure out of it. And like kind of like hunched over while you do it. And I'm just like, okay, this is not. This is not sexy. The reality though is that I move past that and like 2 minutes later it's out of my mind.

Has there ever been an ick that you asked me to stop doing? Something that was giving you the ick so much that you—

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

No.

Yeah. And I don't think I've done very many for you. I can't really think of anything other than farting. It's just a burp on the other end, burping and farting.

Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I also wasn't— it wasn't like regularly like, oh, I'm just like letting them rip as I initiate sex with you.

Not as you initiate sex.

Yeah. No. So no, the ick is here and then it's gone. Okay.

Next question. What is your favorite course you guys have made?

Favorite in terms of like the content inside of it or like through the course creation process?

You can answer both.

I— well, maybe it is both. I don't know. I mean, I would, I would say, um, Ultimate Sex Positions. It was really fun, the creation process and the testing process. We obviously had a lot of sex. We also had a lot of test runs, like clothed test runs. Just, hey, would this work? Would that work? What would it be like to move from this position to that position? And that was, I feel like, brought us really closer. We laughed a lot. We had a lot of fun. And, you know, we just, we just found that out and be like, oh, what, what would this be like? And you're like, oh, I'm kind of getting a zing talking about that. Like, maybe we should do it in real life. Um, that's kind of fun. So yeah, that, that was a lot of fun. We put a lot of love went into that in more ways than one. And, um, and it's, and it's just, it's such a good It is such a good product. I think that a lot of people underestimate the power of just getting a little more knowledge. So there's a little more out there than just missionary, doggy, cowgirl, reverse cowgirl, maybe. Like there are a lot more options and just being aware of some of them, like it can be really fun.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun to develop. We also just did an update to it. Adding a bunch of—

We did.

I think we're up to 17 or 18 new positions with our favorite sex pillow, which we will have to link to that in the show notes too. We'll link to these guides as well. So that has been super fun trying to explore like how many different positions that actually work, not just random like, oh yeah, do this weird backbend.

Yeah. Or like put the pillow, put your elbow on the pillow and then do whatever.

Yeah, it's totally a position or like what actually works. So that was a lot of fun. I think, yeah, I would say the development of that was my favorite one because it was just so bonding and connecting. And not only that, but it, we realized in the process of testing it in that way, we were like, oh, we should tell people who are buying this to do the same thing. Like when you're first trying out these positions, like do a fully clothed run so you can get a sense of like, okay, here's how I would have to go. Here's where you would have to go. Is our bed the right height? Do we do it this way or that way? So that way, like you get a little bit of the nerves and the awkwardness and the giggles out doing like a practice run. And then also like literally labeling it as, hey, this is just our practice session. We have to come up with a more fun name for that. Practice session isn't very fun, but like this is our, you're sort of saying to each other.

It's like your walkthrough, you know, like in NFL, they do like a walkthrough the day before.

Our bone through. Ew, I don't like that. I don't know. I'm trying to think of something different than walk. But like we explicitly said to each other, each other like, okay, this doesn't, this doesn't count as real sex, this is just us testing. And just putting the label on that made the pressure come way down. We felt like we had so much fun with each other. And I think you can do the same thing with really anything new you try in the bedroom. Like, this is just practicing, it doesn't count, it's not real sex, we're just practicing and see how it goes. And then that way, that it helps you build the confidence. So that was the most fun to develop. I think my personal favorite guide are the Ultimate Foreplay guides because they're just— it is seriously like the most no-brainer purchase. Like, what you get compared to what the price is is just out of control. I love the emphasis on female pleasure. We're really working to like close the orgasm gap here, make sure women are enjoying themselves more. But I think we took like a lot of— let's be honest, a lot of people roll their eyes at foreplay. It's just like, oh yeah, yeah, you got a new foreplay before you have sex, or like, oh, that was like something I had to—

like, that was like expected of me, like before I started having regular intercourse. And you kind of have these associates, oh, it's like something that my partner wants out of me, but like, I don't really want to have to do that. Haven't I graduated past that?

Yeah. So we took that and instead show you how to make foreplay the main event, how to give each other the best experience you've ever had, how to absolutely like blow each other's minds. And the feedback that we get from people is just, it's so cool. The stories we get of like, my husband couldn't speak for 10 minutes afterwards. I felt like I was transported to another planet.

Like, yeah. And also cool, like the ways that people feel good about themselves after the amount of power and self-confidence and agency that people get out of that, that they are not prepared for. They are not prepared. They're like, oh, I, I used to like hate doing this. I used to just skip along. I used to to do everything in my power to avoid this, and now I can't stop thinking about it. It's like the most fun part, and we do it so much more, and I feel so confident and like so much more in tune with my body, so much more in tune with my sexuality because I know what to do and I feel good about doing it.

Yeah, we— I, I just think those guides are so amazing, and I'm in the middle of doing a major update to them, so highly recommend scooping them up now because our team in the team meeting. Yeah, they were like, they were like, you need to increase the price of these.

Like, this is crazy.

So grab it now because once, once you get into one of our guides, you get lifetime access to it and you get all the future updates that we do to it totally free. Like we absolutely could charge because it's basically like a brand new product. So much new stuff I'm adding, but we take care of our people. You will get it for free. So we'll put those links links for the foreplay guides, the sex position guide, and our pillow. We'll put those all in the show notes so you can check them all out.

Okay. Well, now we're onto who honestly initiates more between the two of you. This is an up and down one.

This is a— Uh-huh. I just brought this up yesterday, actually. I think so currently I am initiating a lot more than you are, but I'll say for the last I don't know, maybe the last year or so, you had been initiating a lot more with me. And actually to the point where you kind of asked me like, hey, I would love if you initiated more. Like, I want, you know, we're having a lot of sex and it's great, but like, I like feeling desired by you. And yeah, we had kind of gotten into this pattern where you were initiating so frequently that I just, there like wasn't even the space for me because you were, you were on and ready. Um, but we've made a, we've made a flip in, you know, just recently.

Yeah, I wanted to give you some space. Yeah, you know, to work your magic. And, uh, things can swing back the other way, or not back the other way necessarily, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that's always ebbing and flowing, and I think it's important to make it interesting.

Yeah, make the space for that too. And I, we also both appreciate that initiating is very vulnerable. Even when you've been— I actually think it gets more vulnerable the longer you've been together because you have a buildup of more times that you've been turned down and being turned down is really tough. And even in our relationship where we very rarely turn each other down, I can't even remember the last time that happened. But even in that like best of the best case scenario, it still feels vulnerable to— reach out and say, hey, hey, do you want it?

Wanna do it?

Wanna do it? So yeah, I think just making space for the vulnerability and recognizing that there are going to be seasons that you go through too. Like, I think when you brought it up with me, it was not from a place of I'm upset or I'm hurt. It was just like, hey, I'd love this more often. And now I'm kind of in the place yesterday, I was like, yeah, I'd love it if you initiated more often. So it's nice to have those conversations when it's like that versus a You never initiate with me.

Yeah.

We are all about hydration in this household. Xander got me on the drinking water train. One of the things I'm very grateful for.

That almost sounded really bad.

But we love Cure Electrolytes in this household too. They're made with coconut water and pink Himalayan salt. Come in these really convenient little packets that you can just toss in your car, your purse, your luggage. They are delicious. The flavor is amazing. The flavors are really great. Peach mango, berry pomegranate, watermelon lemonade, strawberry kiwi, ginger turmeric, blood orange, tropical punch. Like, you're gonna find something that you love in that list, right? They also have a really great variety pack so you can try out a bunch of different kinds. There's no added sugar, no artificial sweeteners, no junk that you can't pronounce. You just flip that packet over, you can read what all of the ingredients actually are. Xander especially loves them when he goes on his surf trip. Just being able to rehydrate as quickly as possible after hours out in the ocean.

So important.

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Should we answer on 3? 1, 2, 3.

More. This is such a misconception people have.

How would it be? I like, I would love to hear from people like, why, why do you think that it would be less? We hear this so often. If we were sex workers, for example, and like our job was to have sex all week, then I could imagine that, oh, when we are off work, then maybe, yeah, I might— I very well might not want to have very much sex outside of work. But the difference is talking about it versus doing it. Like, I would imagine if you— if there's some sport that you love and you are like a commentator for it or something, or, you know, I don't know, like you love tennis or something and you're like talking about tennis all week, but you're super busy and you don't get to play tennis. I would imagine that as soon as you get off work, you're like, hell yeah, I want to play tennis, right? So yeah, I mean, sex is much more like a sport, a hobby, an activity, something that you gain satisfaction out of. So if you're sitting around talking about something and not able to do it, then then yeah, you want to do the thing that you're talking about.

Yeah. And I think especially for sex, like, it— the more that we talk about it, the more that we want to do it with each other. That was one of the biggest realizations that we had when Xander started working with me, is now we were talking about sex all day, every day for the business, but we started realizing that we were having a whole lot more sex. And it took us a while to make that connection, but we realized, I think it's because because we're talking about it more often. When you don't talk about sex very often, each individual conversation feels like a lot of pressure. Yeah. You oftentimes read it as initiation. Oh, my partner's bringing up sex. I mean, they want to have sex right now or they're upset with something. Our sex life isn't going the way that they want it to be. So each individual conversation takes on so much more weight. But when it is a regular frequent topic of conversation, each of those individual conversations feels like there's no pressure behind it. It's just, we're just talking about it the same way we talk about what do you want to have for dinner? What's the weather going to be like today? When's your doctor's appointment?

And I think that the trick with it is when you talk about it more, it allows you to be able to almost have this, I don't know, I'm making this word up, this term up right now. It allows you to almost have a lot more micro-initiations throughout the day where you're talking about something and you're like, "Ooh, that actually sounds fun. We should try that later." You're not like, "We need to drop everything right now. We need to get off of this meeting that we're on and go have sex." That does not happen in our life. That's another question that people ask us. That is not what we are. We run a professional business. This. Um, we, we really do here. We, we have a real team, real employees. Like, we're not just like sneaking off to have sex. That being said, yeah, the talking about it does allow you to kind of tee up, oh, that would— we should actually do that more, or we should try that. Or like, it, like, you know, honestly, it allows me to be like, oh hey, Matt kind of giving me a zing right now. Like, that, that sounds exciting. Like, I would love to have sex with you later. Like, I feel like it just creates way more opportunity for micro-initiation or just initiation throughout the day in a positive, fun way. Because I think that a lot of people are thinking about it from the perspective of like, oh God, if we have to talk about sex all the time and sex is a dangerous topic where an initiation is this dangerous minefield where it's like, gotta be perfect and it's gotta be right, then it's like, we're gonna be be like talking about it and kind of getting all like possibly hot and bothered, but like we can't actually initiate it until these certain times. And then like, oh God, it's just gonna be feel icky all the time. That is not going to work at all. But I think most people realize, oh, we start talking about it, we start feeling better about like, oh, it, it is safer to initiate whenever. It is okay to say, hey, I would love to have sex with you in a couple of hours once we're back together or done for the day. And that doesn't feel like a dangerous topic.

And Yeah. Okay, but do we talk during sex? Um, about the weather, about dinner, about like when our next date is.

About work, you know. No, we do not. Dirty talk, yes. Sometimes you need a bit more. One of us or some other. Though I've been encouraging Vanessa to talk a little more. I ask her some more pointed questions now.

No, I, okay, I love talking during sex. I love hearing talking during sex. Sometimes I'm a little like, you're like a podcast listener.

You're like, yeah, I just like to have it in my ear.

Yeah. Sometimes I'm just like, I'm so lost in the sensation that it actually feels hard to put words to it. So it is something that I have historically struggled with and have worked on getting better. I mean, we even made, we have an old like dirty talk guide that we made that was inspired by my experiences of learning how to get better at it. I was really, I I was actually very self-conscious about it when we first started dating. I loved hearing it, but I felt like I don't know what to say and I feel embarrassed and I don't want to sound stupid. So I overcame that. And yeah, it continues to be something that I'm consistently trying to remember. Like, yes, it's great to enjoy the sensations and get lost in the moment and enjoy the experience. But like, I also love like communicating with you in the moment too. Yeah, I don't like the experience of like totally silent sex. So we have music and we're usually talking like throughout.

Yeah, honestly, I do struggle. Not struggle, but like it is far less enjoyable to me. The very, very few times this very barely ever happens to us now. But like, you know, in the past when it was like, you know, traveling somewhere, you're around, you know, you're like around other in someone else's house or something and you're feeling like you need to be quiet. That's hard. I'm used to us being able to kind of be free with each other.

Are you guys super touchy touchy kissy kissy behind the scenes?

Behind the scenes, no.

Would you describe us as touchy-touchy, kissy-kissy?

No, I wouldn't. I am more of a physical affection kind of guy than Vanessa is. But that being said, I'm not— Honestly, I feel like what I've been finding recently is my physical affection tank is is very much filled up by the amount of sex that we have. When we're having a lot of sex, and in general we do, I'm like, not like, oh God, I need to be touching her all the time.

Yeah.

I've really found that. But I think that, yeah, we're in a place of like consistency and regularity now that we—

Yeah.

A much more consistent and much more regular place than we've been in maybe ever in our relationship. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not like needing that all the time?

It's so weird. Like I love sex and I need like frequent regular sex to feel connected, but I'm not actually a super touchy person.

Yeah, like not like if it were up to you, like I might, we probably would give you like a kiss goodnight and that might.

Kissing is different.

Okay.

Like kissing, we make out every night before bed. That's one of our number one rules to, it's not as an initiation to sex, not as a lead up to sex. It's just to have a makeout session for the sake of making out. And I like kissing throughout the day too. But touching, I just, yeah, it's like not as much of a thing for me. Early in our relationship, it was actually like Xander had to ask me for more touch because I just, I don't naturally touch. So I had to be very—

It's not your first thought.

Yeah. I had to be very intentional and thoughtful about like, okay, Xander really likes touch. Let me like try to touch him more often. So I enjoy touch when it happens. But I just don't think to do it that often naturally. Maybe it's the same. Maybe I'm the same. Like my tank is just so filled by the amount of sex that we have that I'm not like, I don't, you know, feel that desire, but I like giving hugs and I like holding hands. I'll reach out and like grab your hand and we're like on a dog walk sometimes. But yeah, other than that, I wouldn't say we're super touchy touchy, kissy kissy.

But we're not, I mean, I feel like we know plenty of other couples where it's like, You don't really ever see them touch and that's not us. Yeah.

No, no. But I also do not like PDA. I'm weird about that actually. Like I will not do a big kiss in front of other people. I think it just, it feels kind of rude to other people, even though I think a lot of people don't care. I don't know. I've got a weird thing around that.

So yeah, no, we're in that place of Love Island right now where this is very topical and it won't be by the time this episode comes out, but you are not Jack. Who is like, oh, I'm okay with PDA.

Yeah. Let's make out in front of everyone.

Okay.

Is it weird that our parents know the intimate details of our sex life since we post it on social media?

I mean, are the details really that intimate? Like what the details that we share are like, I guess that's sort of my pushback is how intimate of details are we really sharing? Like we're not—

we have sex.

Yeah, we have sex about it and that we have sex and we talk about it more. We talk about advising people how to have great sex. Um, yeah, I mean, we've talked to—

we've, you know, we've shared details.

Yeah, we have, we have. Okay, I think that there was a time in my past where absolutely this would have felt like, oh my God, there is no way in hell. Part of my sobriety journey in when I got sober The truth of the matter was a lot of my dirty laundry was just out there for my family, for Vanessa Marin's family. And that was the situation. And the same, in getting help, you have to be able to be messy and talk about what you've been struggling with and what you've been going through. And you can't really stay sober if you keep everything to yourself. Yourself. But I don't know anyone that is able to successfully do it who's like, "Yeah, no, I'd never told anyone all my deepest, darkest stuff." And it's really hard because that's just shame. Shame is a hell of a drug that will keep you struggling. And I had to go through that experience of it felt really fucking uncomfortable. Oh my God, everybody knows about this. And then it was like, "Oh, everybody knows about this." and they also, they still love me. They still care about me. No one's looking at me differently. I was really lucky that that's how it happened for me. And it was also a great experience of like, okay, yeah, shit can hit the fan and shit can be messy and vulnerable and you can come away stronger for it. So for me, I had to have that experience. I don't think everybody needs to have that experience in order to start being more vulnerable because if that were true, that no one would ever be vulnerable until they have these crises. But yeah, for me, I'm really fortunate. I'm able to look back and be like, God, I'm so lucky that I was able to have that experience because now I'm like, compared to that, talking about us having sex a lot doesn't really feel big or scary.

And it's opened up a lot of conversations like within my family that we never would have had before. Like in my family growing up, we did not talk about sex. It was not an open, you know, topic of conversation. But once I pursued this career path, my parents, when I was an adult, started talking to me about sex and it felt really healing and special to be able to talk with them about it. So we, like, I've actually I've actually talked with my parents a lot about their sex life, especially during the last few months as my dad has been on his cancer battle and there've been impacts on that. Talked a lot about my dad's penis with my mom and with my dad. So I think that's actually a beautiful thing to be able to talk about. Have there been moments where I've felt embarrassed? Have there been moments where I've had a vulnerability hangover?

Absolutely.

Oh yeah. Like absolutely. It's not easy, but it's valuable. And I think because it's valuable, we continue doing it. Like I remember when our book came out, your mom read the book like cover to cover right away. And I—

She was so proud. Yeah.

But I was like, oh my God. Like the book talks about us doing butt stuff.

There's a whole chapter that opens with— Toilet paper labia.

Yeah. Alexander's finger in my butthole and, you know, oh God. So that was definitely embarrassing. But again, it just, it's like, whatever. We got it. We gotta do it. We see the benefit of doing it. We see the ways that we're able to like make a difference in the world. So that keeps us allowing ourselves to be embarrassed. Okay. How many positions per session do you guys typically do? You?

That is an interesting question.

Mm-hmm.

It really depends on the type of sex that we're having. I think sometimes it can just be one position. For the most part, even if it is just one, there's a lot of like variations, a lot of variations, where technically it's probably more, probably more like, yeah, three. So like probably In, in theory, if you were watching us, which you won't be, but if you were watching us, you would probably see what looks like, you know, maybe at least 3 per session. I mean, sometimes we'll do more like 7, 8. Yeah, 9 if we are, if we are taking it slow and spending some more time. Yeah, on it, like, you know, some Saturday afternoon sex.

Um, yeah, I think I'd say probably 3 to 5. 5. And again, it depends on how you count them. But yeah, we're like moving our body in a certain way. I don't think we ever have like just straight up missionary where nobody moves or changes the angle at all. Like that never happens.

Yeah.

We're at least changing the angle like 3 to 5 times, I would say. And then yeah, in an instance where we take more time, we might run through 8 to 10 kind of ones. And I would say overall, We probably have maybe 15 to 20 different positions that we like fairly regularly hit.

Yeah. Now I do think the one thing I want to call out there is when you say 8 to 10 in a session or like 15 to 20, we're not necessarily talking about that. Like, that's not the number of times that like basically, you know, like, like I, you know, penis is entering vagina and then leaving and then we're completely moving around and then reinserting. I mean, like, if you get Ultimate Sex Positions, and especially once you see what we've done with all the pillow positions, there are a lot of positions that seamlessly can be moved between, you know, both just sort of moving body parts, moving angles, propping yourself up in a certain way where you don't need to like take it out and put it back in. And I think that's where a lot of people get tripped up on positions. They're like, oh, you know, It's like, it's awkward. Like, okay, we got to stop and then we kind of got to move. There's no stimulation happening during that time. Then we got to get back into the rhythm. Most people don't realize that there are ways to go through a lot of different positions very seamlessly without ever stopping, without changing, you know, changing the vibe or the rhythm. And that's what most people are missing out on, on really great sex, I think.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I will say, I think Like, the— well, I know this from experience. We also know this because we have done the research and asked you guys and analyzed the data. The people who use— who have more positions in their general repertoire, you know, like we just referenced, 15 to 20. The more positions people have in their repertoire, the more satisfied they are with their sex life. There's a very clear relationship. Where people with, you know, people who have 7 to 9 positions that they regularly rotate between are much happier than most people who responded to our survey said. You know, we asked like 16,000 people. It was like the majority of people did have 2 to 3 in their regular rotation and they're moderately satisfied with their sex life. The people with 5 to 7 and then 7 to 9 and like 9 plus were way happier. Like to be an 8 out of 10, 10, people needed to be doing 7 or more on a regular basis. And I can also definitely say I can't really think of any of our peak or best sexual experiences that didn't have a number of positions that we cycled through.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like I just, yeah, I can't think of any time where I was like, oh my God, that was one of the best sex, like the best sex of my life or one of the best times we've done it this this year where it was like just one position.

I really don't think we've like— I don't think we ever do just one position.

Yeah. Or even if it was like just what we might say is like 3. I feel like the best ones are when we take our time and we are going through different— we're going through different things. And that's really the secret to enjoying it more, guys. It's really that easy. Okay.

If you could only do one position for the rest of your life, what would it be? Should we do it on 3?

Oh, okay.

1, 2, 3. Missionary.

Pillow missionary.

Okay. I'll change mine to pillow missionary.

Missionary is kind of a cheat code because there are a lot of seamless variations that can occur where you can stretch missionary into like 5 or 6 different positions that you will experience very differently. So it's kind of a bit of a cheat. Like if you were to be like, reverse cowgirl, there's not a lot of options there. It's basically going to be almost the same every single time. It's kind of like, well, what's your favorite food? And you're like, oh, well potatoes, because I can have french fries, I can have mashed potatoes, I can have baked potato. That's sort of the cheat code. But I would say the pillow, with the pillow, because, which is, yeah, vmtherapy.com/pillow. If you want to see what the pillow is, get a little discount on it as well. The pillow opens up even more sort of seamless variations. Yeah. I think, which, so it creates more variety from less, I would say.

All right. Well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. Next week we release new episodes every Thursday.