Episode 10: Communication Breakdowns: We Coach Real Couples Through Their Worst Fights So You Can Get Better At Yours

What's for dinner?

Maybe if you'd come home in a decent hour, I'd make you dinner.

Wow, that heated up quickly.

Unlike your dinner.

Damn.

Today we are talking about communication. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationships. Relationship. While giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

So make sure to subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

Oh, yeah. People love communication. There's so many things that we can do better with communication. And even Vanessa and I, we are for sure not perfect at it. We've up leveled a lot, I would say, over the years compared to where we used to be.

Definitely.

But even with all the skills in the world, sometimes in the moment, it just does not happen the way you would have drawn it up.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, communication, it's really the backbone of all of our relationships, and yet we are not taught how to communicate. Like, we learn how to talk, but we don't learn how to communicate effectively. Like expressing our needs and discussing our differences and staying calm and being clear.

And effective, validating each other's experiences. We talk about that one a lot.

So, you know, good communication is really, really hard. And I can say, you know, even as a psychotherapist, I did get a little bit of schooling and how to communicate, and still, you know, I make communication mistakes all the time. And like Xander was saying, even the point that we've gotten to now, we still both make communication mistakes all the time. Today we're doing something really fun and we are breaking down your communication breakdown.

Oh, breakdown.

Oh, wicka, wicka. Oh, keep going.

I don't know. I don't have any. Any breakdowns.

Send me your breakdown, son.

Breakdown.

Oh, will you do that in between each communication thing that we do?

Yeah, we can have our podcast engineer. Just do that little. That'll be my st. My breakdown. Sting.

Great. So what we did for this episode is we went over to Instagram. If you're not following us there yet, we're at Vanessa Marin therapy. We asked people, tell us about your communication breakdowns. Tell us about a conversation that you tried to have with your partner that just went horribly off the rails. And we asked people in particular to Send us text conversations.

Yeah, we wanted them to prove it.

We wanted to see the receipts. We wanted to see exactly what you said, exactly what your partner said said. What we're gonna do today is we picked some of the most interesting ones and we are gonna read the conversation to you. We've got a little role play action going on. Not the sexy kind, sadly, but gonna do some role plays. And then we're also gonna walk you through opportunities for making different communication decisions all throughout that conversation.

Now, if we do one of yours and you're listening, do not beat yourself up and be like, oh, I screwed up here, I screwed up here, I screwed up here. Just remember, we are looking at this in hindsight. Hindsight vision is always 2020. It's much easier to look back on this and be like, okay, well, you should have done this differently. You should have done that differently. I just want to be super clear that the reality is when you are in the moment, you can know all of this stuff and it's still really easy to not quite get it right.

Absolutely. And it was interesting because a lot of people, when they were sending the screenshots over to us, they would leave this little message like, oh my God, I did not even realize how bad this was. Or I seem like such in this. I'm so sorry. Sometimes it's just in the moment, we can get really lost. We can get triggered or upset and we just. Nobody's taking the time to really think through, hey, what's the reasonable and responsible response to have to this kind of thing? So, yeah, definitely, like, don't beat yourselves up. This is not about making fun of people. It's not about saying you did a terrible job. It's using these real life examples, which I think is so valuable to see it happening in real life and learning better communication skills for all of us. So, you know, we could make a podcast episod where we go. Okay, here's rule number 564 for communication. You know, and it's just, it's not going to be as fun as if we say, okay, look at this real example of this couple where it just really went off the rails and what could they have done differently?

Before we get into that, we are going to get into the review of the week. So today's review is practical and really helpful advice. They take a really intimidating topic and normalize communicating about sex and intimacy. Would definitely recommend giving them a listen.

And we are also doing something brand new with our reviews. So we would love for you to leave us A review on Apple Podcasts. We know we say this every week, but it really is the only way that our podcast can grow. And you guys are helping us so much already. We would really appreciate you leaving a review and then DM us a screenshot over to Vanessa Marin Therapy. Unfortunately, Apple sometimes takes a few days or even a week to upload the review. So just send us a screenshot as soon as you submit it. And then what we are doing is every week we're going to randomly select one person who left a review and you can send us a description of your situation or a question, and we will send you a personalized response back. So it's just our little way of saying thank you for taking a minute of your time to leave the review. Great thing is, once you send us that screenshot, you are eligible to win for the rest of eternity, as long as we're doing this podcast in perpetuity. So just do it once, spend one minute, get it over with, and then you could win. Every week you have a chance to win.

It's time to get into the breakdown. First of all, we just want to say thank you so much to all the people that sent these over. It takes a lot of courage. You're really brave for doing it. Don't worry, we're not going to out who you are. But yeah, so this one got sent over by someone saying, me, total asshole and my sweet husband trying to help. So role play time. Yeah.

So the context of this one is that this couple, they were on vacation and she was trying to get the baby down for a nap, and her husband didn't realize that and came in yelling for the dogs. So we're just gonna bleep out the dog's names because we don't want to have any sort of identifying information. So I'm gonna start off with her and Xander's. We're gonna role play her hubby. We were doing good, then you came back here screaming the dog's name. Not cool.

I am sorry.

Now he's screaming, not going down. The dogs come in and they're pouncing on the bed.

Do you want me to let them back out?

I'm livid. So annoyed. He's screaming. I literally cannot handle it right now.

Do you want me to try?

I don't want to hear a word from you about being tired because I was up with him all night. No, I'm giving him some time.

Okay.

And if anyone says a thing, I'll slap them.

Okay. I love and I am sorry.

I'm about to lose my shit.

Do you want me to come try?

Omg. Why the fuck? When I want to leave him to cry, you insist on trying, but when I want you to help out, you bitch about it and say, no, I am not okay. I am just so mad right now.

Okay, sorry. Let me know if I can do anything.

You could have come back here and had a conversation with me, but I guess that's not going to happen.

Zing.

And end scene. Okay.

All right. So I think what's interesting with this. What really? The first thing that sticks out to me is he kind of jumps in, apologizes immediately. He doesn't apologize with too many words. I'm imagining he's quickly trying to fire that message. Message off because they're not able to talk in person. But, yeah, I mean, it can be challenging, you know, if you just sort of send a short apology without any other context or like. Or like, you know, I'm sorry I did this to you. I'm sorry I made you feel this way. You know, just, I'm sorry. Not the most meaningful apology. Then again, he's trying to do it quickly, but he quickly kind of ends up in no man's land here, where he says, I'm sorry. And then she very clearly kind of just starts venting. Where I can imagine, like, if it were me, I would be like, oh, okay, well, I've apologized. Now she clearly doesn't want to hear, now is not a good time to apologize. But, like, what else do you do once the venting starts? You're just like, well, here I am. I started. Now I can't stop.

Well, this is another thing that I relate to about this, is that this happens in our own relationship, that sometimes Xander will apologize quickly, and I will feel like, wait, I haven't been heard. Like, I haven't had a chance to express what I'm feeling, why your actions had that certain impact on me, why this got stirred up. And so that's exactly what I see happening here. That, you know, he says immediately, I am sorry. And she keeps saying, you know, now he's screaming, the dogs are pouncing on the bed. Like, she's wanting him to understand more about the impact that it has had on her. I think this could have been addressed by him saying, I'm so sorry. Can you tell me a little bit more about what happened? Like, trying to gather some more details from her or even saying, you know, can we talk about it afterwards? I want to hear what happened for you. Just so she feels like she has the opportunity to be heard. And my guess is that if she had had the space to share, hey, this is the impact that you yelling at the dogs had on me. That if she'd had that space, she might not have gotten so hot so quickly. She ended up feeling a little bit cut off by him just jumping to, I'm sorry. That then she kind of like goes harder about, like, hold on a second, I'm about to lose my shit. I'm going to slap somebody. You know, like, all that kind of stuff.

I wish you guys could see Vanessa. She was. She was really feeling into it there. That's hand head movements and hand movements going. Yeah, she knows exactly what's going on here. But, yeah, I mean, I think this is a great example of how apologizing over text message is super challenging. The bottom line is that text message is probably one of the worst mediums for, like, the worst channels for apologizing. You can't type that quickly. You can't really give a thorough apology that makes your partner really feel fully seen and heard and understood. In this case, he's trying to quickly fire off, I am sorry. But it's like you don't even know what he's sorry for. Exactly. One idea could have been, instead of him just saying, I'm sorry is say, oh, man, I feel really bad about what just happened. I'm sure that had a really adverse impact on you. I am here to listen to what that was like for you. As soon as you're able to come out here and we talk.

Yeah. I mean, in general, we don't recommend that people have big or serious conversations over text message because it's so easy to make communication mistakes and misread things. That being said, we understand that sometimes text is the only way that you can communicate. It actually is the best way that you can communicate, you know, in this circumstance. Like, they were physically separated. So we get it. Like, communication is not perfect. None of us are. But, yeah, I totally see your point. I also think that what would have been beneficial for her is to go in one of two directions. Either tell him that she needs to venture or make a specific request. So I see her kind of like going all over the place and her reaction, just a lot of emotions coming up. But I think if she had said to him, I just need to vent for a second, and then had the space to say, like, God, I'm so tired. I was up all night last night and I thought I was so close to getting the baby asleep. And this is really Hard, you know, that probably would have felt good to her to go through all those details. Or she could have made a specific request like, yes, I do need you to come in here and take the dogs away. Or, you know what, let's switch roles, and you put the baby down, down, or something like that, going one direction or the other. And I think those are good options for most of us in almost any communication situation. Do I need to vent, or do I want to go into, like, problem solving mode? That might have helped focus her a little bit.

Yeah. Or it's like, do I want to vent? Do I want to make a request? Or do I want my partner to go into problem solving mode? Because I think I can really relate with him. I think he is defaulting to problem solving mode of, you want me to take him back out? Can I try? Is there anything you want me to do? And problem solving mode. I think it's something that men especially are really likely to go into. It's kind of like what we're socialized to do. And unfortunately, going into problem solving mode when the other person just wants to vent is sort of like a perfect storm, because they're just like, I don't want you to do anything. I just want you to listen. But when the person's not actually able to say, hey, I just want a vent, I just want you to listen. And then you're also like, okay, well, okay, shit. What can I do to fix this? You're literally creating a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah, okay. And then I just want to make a couple of other quick notes about some things that I'm reading on her end. Obviously, like, we never condone any sort of physical violence. So when she's saying, you know, I'll slap them, my guess is that was just kind of a phrase that she was saying out of frustration, not an actual threat to put her hands on anyone. But I just want to be super clear. Like, we never condone that. That's. It's not okay. And I also think, you know, we want to be careful about using curse language in conversation. So I swear, like a fucking sailor, I love using cuss words, but I try to avoid them in arguments, especially because it feels really aggressive to your partner. So she's saying, you know, like, why the fuck do you do this? And, like, you know, you bitch out about it. Stuff like that. Like, just trying to take those words out can automatically help soften the language up.

Yeah, I mean, curse words are funny because there's a lot of variations of Them based on your tone. And I think like tone really can change the meaning of curse words significantly in text. It can just be not candy. It is very difficult for there to be any of that context there. And so it's just fully open to interpretation.

All right, so let's move on to our next one. So this is between another husband and wife couple and they're discussing the fact that they haven't been having very much sex lately. And I think this is a really interesting example for us to go through because there are some really good things that they do in this conversation. Like, it's obviously a hard conversation for them. They don't do it perfectly. None of us do. But there's a lot of good stuff in here too.

And the other piece of context is that they have three year old twins.

That's right. Okay, I'm sorry that I don't show you as much affection as you would like. I will work on it.

It doesn't really bother me. I don't understand what happened and I think maybe you're not happy.

I am happy. And I don't want to be with anyone but you. I think it's just part of my life right now with me being a stay at home mom and you always working. I don't know. I feel like I give so much of myself for the kids all day long that at the end of the day I'm just done for. I mean, I think it's safe to say that kids happened and a lot has changed, but that doesn't mean I can't work on it.

Yeah, that's probably true. It is what it is, I guess. Just feel we aren't very close anymore. We were over the weekend and maybe that's what made me think of it.

I know I feel the same. Like we aren't very close anymore, but I've felt like that for a while. Seems like it comes and goes. I'm hoping that them going to preschool in the fall will help. I think I really need some time for myself that isn't just a run to the grocery store or having quiet time during a nap.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't know, it just sucks that I feel like you don't hug and kiss me anymore. Sex is more of a fight now than anything. When you used to be the one that would want to do it all the time. Now I feel like every time I try, I just get turned down. Just made me question some things.

Yeah, we definitely need to work on things. Probably need to start with Communicating a little better. I have a hard time expressing myself when we talk in person. Seems like it always ends in an argument and then the silent treatment. We get like four hours of time together when you get home from work. And it doesn't help that the kids go to bed so late which gives us like one hour of time. Just you and I. I think just not having time is a huge thing for us. Especially since you work on the weekends. It's like there's never time.

Yes, I agree. Just sucks because after work I want to see the kids too. And you. Maybe we should just work on being closer. I don't know how though. I just don't know what I can do to help. You want to be intimate anymore so it's frustrating.

Maybe we need a relationship therapist or.

We just try to figure something out. It's not like we hate each other, it's just that you don't like me. Lol.

Okay, that's not true lol. I'm just not obsessed with you. Like when we first started dating, a lot has changed.

What do you want me to do to help? You want to have sex and stuff like that again? What do you think could help?

I think what we are going through is normal too by the way. I mean it doesn't feel good or normal I guess. But I don't think any couple with two toddlers has a perfect life. Not work so much on the weekends lol. I honestly don't know. That's why I think a relationship therapist could help.

I can try to stop working so much on weekends and I don't know. I don't want to do that yet. That just costs a lot. I just think that if we had sex more often than once every two weeks, we'd be better off.

Yeah, you're probably right. Also, maybe not drinking so much during the week. I know you've been working on it but it's a little bit of a turn off for me.

Deal. And maybe we could actually have good sex instead of just banging quick and being done and playing on our phones.

Lol. Yeah, let's just keep working on it, not have sex and then forget about it till next time you want to have sex and then start this all over again?

Yes, I'll try. Sorry, no more drinks for me until Saturday. Or only drink on weekends. That would be best.

You don't need to say sorry. We both just have some stuff to work on and need to keep communicating. All right, so there's a lot of good stuff there, right? Like I think Overall, they're being really kind to each other. Obviously, it's hard for us to read the tone. We're doing our best little recreations here. But it sounds like they're staying pretty calm for the most part. They're both brainstorming lots of different possibilities. The stuff about not drinking, the stuff about trying to have better sex and not immediately go to their phone. Like, they're both being team members in this, I think. And I also appreciate that she's looking for more resources. Like, she's saying, well, could we work with a therapist on this? Because I'm not really sure what could help. So there's so much stuff that they're doing. Right. Oh, and also she's trying to normalize, like, hey, we're not alone. I think a lot of other couples struggle with this too, with balancing, you know, time for ourselves, time for us as a couple and our kids.

Yeah. I mean, I think that the first thing that really stuck out to me at the very top was that it seems like he's kind of downplaying what it is that he wants, or he's being a bit wishy wash. Or he's saying, like, the fact that she doesn't show much affection. He's saying, well, it doesn't really bother me. But then he's saying he doesn't understand and maybe he thinks that she's not happy.

So it obviously does bother him. So it's like, it's okay for him to come out and just say, you know, like, yeah, my feelings are hurt, or I'm looking for more of this, or, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah. Especially because later he gets into, you know, like, I'm really missing having sex with you. I really want to prioritize that. So it doesn't make a lot of sense. At the beginning. He's saying, oh, you know, it doesn't really bother me. I think that when you have a need that you want to express and something that you really want to work on, it's far more likely for it to happen if you can be really clear and not wishy washy about what it is that you want, rather than being like, well, I don't know, it might be nice if we spent some more time together. It's just really hard for either party to get super motivated when you're kind of hearing, like, doubt being unsure strewn in through all the comments.

Yeah. And also when he says, you know, it's just that you don't like me. Lol, you know, he's trying to, like, play this off as a joke or downplay it. Like, that's a really vulnerable thing to say to your partner. And I think he deserves to say it clearly, indirectly, and, you know, obviously not as an accusation, like you hate me or anything like that, but just telling her, you know, sometimes I wonder if you like me, if you like spending time with me, if you, you know, want to prioritize me, that kind of thing. I mean, I think in general, what these two could benefit from is actually, like, a bit more of the really honest truth with each other.

More directness.

Yeah, more directness. Like, again, they are being so kind to each other, and I think that's really wonderful. And it's so hard to do. And at the same time, like, sometimes we need to say those hard, honest, direct truths with each other. So the words that were going through my head when I was reading this one is something like, it makes me sad that we love each other so much, and yet we're really struggling to make the time for each other, or we're really struggling to feel truly intimate and truly connected with each other.

Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is it can feel really hard and vulnerable to actually put it all out there and fully admit things are not where either of us wish they were. Things are not where it maybe feels like they used to be. And we need to put some effort into getting them back to there, whether that's going to therapy or something else. You know, I think clearly he may have a little bit of a block about going to therapy because she suggests seeing a therapist, and he immediately says, or just figure something out.

Just figure it out on her own.

However, you know, I think from reading through this is. I'm not. I'm not so sure that they're kind of, quote, just going to figure it out, given they're looking at. They're kind of saying, maybe when they go to preschool, things will get better. Or, like, maybe we do less work and things get better. I think that it's very easy for us to focus on external things changing that will somehow magically change things for us internally. And that pretty much never happens. Something might change externally, but then something else will happen. You'll find another way to fill your time. And so in order to really make progress on a relationship, you have to identify, yes, I want to make progress. Something is not where I want it to be. I need to do these specific things, and I'm going to do those things whether or not this external thing changes or not.

Yeah, well, they did at the. At the End make a specific plan about the drinking. You know, it's great to see that. And I would encourage them to make something even more concrete, like see how that weekend went of trying it as a little extra experiment, and then maybe that becomes kind of a guideline in their relationship. I also wish that they could do that around, like, right at the very beginning. She says, you know, I think maybe I need a little more time to myself. And I wanted her to be more direct and have that be a specific request. And so that could be another thing that they could create a game plan around, is how are we each going to carve out a little bit of time? Even if our days are really chaotic and full, how can we carve out even five minutes of alone time that we could each get to just do our own thing and be by ourselves? Overall, lots of really great stuff here, and we hope it's as useful for you to see examples of, you know, good stuff happening, too, as it is for the more challenging conversations. Okay, our next one. It's not a text conversation, but the woman who sent this over to me described it really clearly. And this is another one that I could totally picture happening between the two of us. I was relating to this one a lot. My partner and I got into it about taking a hot pizza out of the oven. We had spent hours making dough from scratch and prepping the toppings, but we didn't realize that the center was rolled a little too thin. Once in the oven, it started to fall through the grates, getting melted cheese all over the bottom of the oven. I noticed and started panicking. I was like, oh, my God, the center is falling. I attempted to take it out with a cookie sheet, but it was clear that I needed help. I shouted for him to come help me. I realize now that I should have just asked for help, but instead I said, can't you see that I'm struggling? Come help me. And the first thing he does is grab a plastic spatula. We had the oven set to 475 degrees Fahrenheit, so I was like, wait, that's gonna melt. It's plastic. He throws the spatula down on the counter and storms off, very shocked and still freaking out about the pizza. I managed to handle the situation after I asked him what that was all about, and he goes on to explain all the reasons why the spatula was the best idea and it would not have melted, and that I always shut down his ideas. I was completely blindsided that the conversation was turning into, you never like any of My suggestions when I thought I was way more justified to be mad he was playing on his phone while I was literally manning the fire. Then he did not help and stormed off. It spiraled from there into, okay, well, if I never liked your ideas, then why don't you say something in the moment or give me a chance to change my mind? In my opinion, I'm a reasonable person. Maybe my initial reaction to do something is maybe not feeling it. But if he voiced like, hey, I'm actually really into this idea, then I think I would be like, oh, okay, then, yeah, I'm not feeling it. But I'm also not against it that I can be swayed. Alright. We have definitely had our fair share of arguments around stuff like trying to pull the melting pizza. And by the way, what a tragedy. Freshly handmade dough just dripping down to the bottom.

No, I would eat it.

So in moments of crisis, like, obviously the pizza is not a huge crisis, but like, it's. It's a mini crisis. A mini pizza crisis. It's really easy for things to get heated really quickly. We always encourage couples to come back and talk about what happened after the crisis has passed. For me, what really stood out? We're not talking about the pizza here. There's obviously some deeper stuff that has gotten some stirred up for each of us, and this happens all the time. But I think it's really hard for us to recognize that we get really fixated on the like, but it's a plastic spatula and that's a hot oven. Of course it's going to melt. You know, like, we get really fixated on the logistics of what's happening, and we don't take the time to look for the tender little underbelly of what's actually going on in that moment. You know, one of the reasons why I related to this one so much is that I have a tender little underbelly myself. Feeling like in moments of mini crises, we have to come up with a better word for this. I don't know. I don't know what it means, but in moments of mini crises, I have the tendency to feel like I'm alone in dealing with them or I'm the primary person who has to deal with them. And that Xander's more like coming in to help or be of assistance. But, like, it's a very lonely feeling that comes up for me. And that traces back to lots of stuff from my own history. It would come up with a partner other than Xander. There are dynamics in our relationship that have sort of exacerbated that or brought it out in different ways. So it's like, you know, that's a really a naughty ball of string for me. And I wonder if there's something around that for her, too, of this feeling like she's the one who has to be the default partner in times of crisis. You know, it sort of reminds me, like, there's a mental load to it, too. You know, going back to our mental load. Episod that's been so popular of, like, yeah, I'm the one who has to carry that load of dealing with these situations.

Also, I just thought of this as you were describing that, you know, she kind of has this gut reaction or feeling of, he should have been able to see that I was struggling. And then she describes later that he was actually over on the couch playing games on his phone. I actually doubt that he could have seen she was struggling. So I wonder if there's almost sort of a test thrown in there of, like, I'm struggling. Is he going to notice? Is he going to notice? And typically, with these type of tests, we are just setting our partners up for failure and kind of, by extension, setting ourselves up. Yeah, failure, too, because. Yeah.

You know, and for him, I wonder if maybe it sounds like there's some sensitivity for him around his ideas not being valued. And so this is such a great tool that you can use in your conversations. Again, you know, after you've had a chance to kind of cool off, you come back to it and ask each other, like, what was the tender underbelly there for you? And if you can get curious about your partner's experience, you can learn a lot about yourselves and about each other. So I might be totally wrong. Different things might have come up for each of them. But to have that opportunity to ask each other, like, what was that moment like for you? What was that tender underbelly that came up for you?

You know, for her, since she recognizes. Yeah, you know, I shouldn't have yelled initially and, like, I should have asked him, just, hey, can you come help? Another thing is, you know, if she's. If she's finding that she realizes that she feels like she always is manning the crisis, or, you know, he kind of checks out and leaves her in charge. This could have been a great opportunity to make a request earlier, like, say, when they put the pizza in the oven and say, hey, you know, this. This pizza is going to be cooking for the next 15 minutes, would you mind staying in here, kind of splitting the pizza monitoring duties? Rather than. He might be like, okay, well, it looks like she's staying in here and probably don't need two people to do that, so I'm just going to wander off and do something else.

Yeah, make a request earlier. Just some other little details here. It sounded like he said to her, you never like any of my suggestions. We recommend that you never use the words never or always.

How about you barely ever use the word never?

There we go. Because what happens when you use one of those words is that you both just go into lawyer mode. So if Xander says to me, you never help me cook dinner, all that I have to do is think about one instance where I helped him cook dinner, and he's wrong.

And it's pretty easy to find one instance.

Whereas if we take that word out of our vocabulary or both those words out of our vocabulary, then it gives us the opportunity to talk more about the. The feelings. So when we use never and always, we go into the logistics, but what we want to talk about is that tender little underbelly with the feelings.

Yeah. And if I could just do a very quick makeover of his. You never like any of my suggestions. Instead, that's very. Even if you take the never out, you tend to not like my suggestions. That comes off as very accusatory. He's telling her, you don't do this. There's a way to rephrase that where he can take responsibility for feeling that she doesn't do that or perceiving that. So you could say, when I tried to do the spatula and you told me that wasn't a good tool to use, it reminded me of a number of times where I came away feeling like my suggestions weren't valued.

Yeah.

And that way, he's taking responsibility for feeling that way rather than just saying it in black and white. You. You did not value my suggestions in that moment. Because that also, even though you're not saying never, it still sets it up for just a black and white argument where it's like, either you do value his suggestions or you don't, and there's no room for gray area. Whereas if you say, you know, if. Sometimes it feels to me like my suggestions aren't valued, there's a lot more room to talk about what that's like.

Because then I could say, oh, you know, I had no idea. Like, what is that like for you? What gave you that impression? Is there any history for you around feeling like your ideas aren't valued? You know, there's so much more space versus just like. No, I agreed with your suggestion. The other day, you know. Right. You get into, like, a deeper, more meaningful territory with your partner.

And so we kind of see what happens because of the use of never and that sort of accusatory, like, you don't like my suggestions type thing. So she probably hears never, and that cues her to go into lawyer mode. She kind of immediately goes to, like, invalidating and poking holes in that argument by. So she then goes to questioning, how can you even feel that way? Because you've never before told me. And she uses the word never again. You've never told me. I don't value your suggestions. And so, you know, she kind of immediately just invalidates his feeling. He feels like his suggestions aren't valued, even though he didn't say it that way. Immediately there's this really big wedge thrown in the middle of them.

A wedge of pizza, perhaps?

Yeah, a wedge. A slice of pizza. All right, we are getting into our final communication breakdown.

Okay.

Well, I never thought that I would be singing on a podcast. Breaking barriers here.

Oh, my God.

Oh, wow. I've done it again, people.

I'm so proud of you. Breaking barriers. What a trailblazer. You.

I am. I'm so pleased with myself. All right, so there's a little context to this one.

This is another husband and wife couple. The husband is the breadwinner for their family. The wife works part time. If the husband's work schedule changes, which is what happened in this particular example that we're going to be reading to you, it turns to her to either call out for work or to find childcare for her son. So she said that this is a fight that the two of them have a lot. Henlo, I'm very stressed.

Why?

It just feels like another situation where everything falls on me.

I'm not mad at you. I just got done being yelled at by customers and just sat down to eat before calling you. I know you're venting, and you aren't wrong for that, but sometimes the way you word it feels more personal.

It just gets hard when I'm the one who always has to figure something out. You never have to worry about calling out of work. That's not an accusation, it's a fact. And sometimes it gets hard and it's embarrassing.

And I understand that. I stress big time on finances. One day of work is $200 gone. I have their two kids on my mind all the time in that regard. I appreciate you handling these things. When I think an issue is settled that isn't, I get frustrated because I don't want to come off like, I don't care. I thought I was just taking him to your mom's. You didn't tell me it was weighing on you, so I didn't pursue it any further.

Okay. I don't feel like you're getting what I'm trying to say, so let's just end this now and pick up on it tomorrow. Good night. I love you.

All right, I think this one is really interesting. This is a really good one. A lot of good examples here. I think at the very beginning, he says, why? Single words in text, I think, can be challenging.

We don't know what the tone is. Like, it could be like, why tell me? Or it could be a why would you be stressed?

Yeah, it could be like, why period. In this case, it's why question mark. But it's so easy for us to interpret things in, you know, God knows how many ways. When I read this, I kind of of read that almost as, like, challenging, like, why would you be stressed? Rather than, you know, like, you can get the same thing. You know, you can still ask why someone is stressed and also validate them. I'm bummed that you're stressed. Like, that must be really hard. Do you want to tell me what's going on for you?

Yeah. And so it. With this particular situation that they're dealing with, it makes a lot of sense to me. You know, so they had this arrangement, it sounds like, where he's the primary breadwinner, so it's maybe makes more sense for it to fall to her to either arrange childcare or be the one to call us out at work. That being said, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have impacts on them. You know, like, it's a challenging situation for her to deal with, even if they've agreed that this is what they're going to do. And so she starts off by saying, it just feels like another situation where everything falls on me. I think it could have been helpful, and maybe she could have gotten a better response from him if she had said, says, you know, something like, hey, I know that we have this agreement about how we handle work schedules and stuff like that, and I'm on board with it, doing us doing it that way. And it has an impact on me. And sometimes it's really hard for me.

Yeah. Because I think, you know, what she says, it just feels like another situation where everything falls on me. And so without that acknowledgment of, like, I know this is my job, and also I'm feeling stressed without that it's very easy for the other person to hear it's unfair, that this is falling on me, and that it's somehow up to me as the person hearing that to, like, fix this problem or to change things and maybe put him in feeling this sort of, like this impossible choice of do I make more money for our whole family because we, you know, we. We really need to, or do I not do that so that you don't feel stress? And I think that from reading the rest of this, she's not trying to say you can't work.

Yeah, we have to change the arrangement.

Yeah, we have to change the arrangement. She's not saying that, but it's so easy for him to take that away from just hearing. It's just another situation where everything falls on you.

Marble mouth on that one. So I think also the use of everything reminds me of what we doing were just talking about with always and never. Yeah, I mean, she's saying everything falls on me. She's not even specifying, you know, the daycare situation, the childcare situation, or, you know, whatever it is. Like, everything is falling on her. And so I think that puts him into a bit of a defensive place where he then goes to like, hey, I just got done being yelled at by customers. Like, there's stuff falling on me, too. I'm stressed out, too.

Yeah, you want to start comparing? Like, she hears that she's saying, everything's falling on me, and he's like, wait, hold on. Like, I had a shitty day too.

Yeah. So he does do something really good. He says, I know you're venting and you aren't wrong. So that's really nice of him to call out. Like, you know, I know you're just needing to vent right now. I know that. You know, and he's trying to validate her feelings. You're not wrong in feeling that, but he's just saying, like, it feels personal the way that she's saying it. So that's. It's a clue to her that she could have changed the way that she shared that with him.

I feel like it would be so amazing if they could get to a place where she is able to express in a constructive way that she is feeling stressed, that she's feeling like many things are falling on her, and that he's able to hear that in a way where it doesn't feel like a challenge to him or like, you need to change. You need to make a different decision. You need to work less. You need to share this responsibility with me. And to get to a place where he can hear that and be like, man, that sounds like a lot. And I think that's totally possible, you know, if they can each remember that they are allowed to feel stressed and also have a responsibility and also have an arrangement. And, you know, I think that, you know, in this case, like, if he had just asked for a little more detail at the beginning of, like, oh, like, tell me what you're feeling. And if she had kind of put her thing about feeling stressed in the context of, I'm feeling stressed, and I also. I also recognize that I need to do this. It's best for our family. Yeah. And I'm also feeling stressed. Like, I feel like they could be. They're so close to being in a really, really positive place in terms of communication.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think just a couple little tweaks to this conversation, and it could have felt so good for both of them. Okay, so here's another small thing with her. It's like she does throw in a you never. So let's just take the never out. And then she says this line, that's not an accusation, it's a fact. And I think that's another really challenging phrase to use. I think people use this in different language, but, like, this bottom line of, like, that's a. A fact or that's the truth. And again, this is something that puts us into lawyer mode. And it may very well be true. He may literally never once had to call out from work so that he could deal with their childcare situation. But the way that it's phrased it just immediately is going to put the partner on the defensive, and it's not going to make the two of you feel like a team. So I think it would be fair to say this is not something that you've had to deal with before. You know, like, it's fine to say the reality of, like. Like, this is how we deal with it. It's not something that you have had to deal with. But just softening that language a little bit can really go a long way.

Maybe what they could do is he could offer, you know what? I will. I will call out of work one time, sacrifice that $200 just one time so that I can have gone through it so I can relate a little more with you on that, or. So you just kind of throw in something like that that, you know, it's not like you're trying to make it fair, because it's not ever going to be fair, but just kind of throw it in there of like, hey, how would that feel? How would that feel for you if I tried doing it once just so that one time I can know what it feels like.

I wonder if she'd take him up on that. I'd be very curious.

She might not. I bet you that if you're listening to the guy here, if this happened to you, try offering that. I think that can oftentimes soften things because a lot of this is like, there's sort of under the surface maybe a bit of resentment of her thinking, oh, well, he would never do this. He's never had to and he never would. And so kind of using that interesting.

One, you have to be careful with the tone of that because I could see it coming off being very aggressive and putting them both into lawyer mode. We're like, okay, fine, well, I'll do it once then. And then you can never complain about it ever again. So it's like, you gotta be really careful with the tone there.

But if, yeah, if he really genuinely feels like that's something that he could do because he cares about her feelings and wants to be able to relate with her, that would be a great suggestion. If it's gonna be a. If it's a bluff, don't do it.

That wraps up our communication breakdown. There's my sting. So we really hope that you guys enjoyed this. We hope it was useful to see these real life examples of couples having real life communication challenges. And again, we just want to say thank you so much to the couples who were very brave, put themselves out there. You know, we're really vulnerable and shared. None of us likes to share examples of times that we made mistakes or weren't at our best. We just really appreciate this and we would love to do more of these in the future if you guys find them useful. So head on over to Instagram. Again, we're at Vanessa Marin Therapy and let us know if you liked these. If you have any communication breakdowns that you want us to break down, send us some screenshots of your conversations. But we really hope that this was useful for you. If you have a question that you want answered on the podcast, leave us a message at 774-P-I- L&O-W1. That's 774-Pillow-1. We have our very own hotline. It just goes straight through to voicemail. No one will ever pick up. But it's really fun for us to be able to incorporate real stories and actually have your voicemail recordings. So let us know what you want us to do us to cover on the podcast. And finally, if you want to learn even more about our best communication tips, we have a free guide that we know you are going to love. So it's called the Golden Rules of Communication, and it is our tried and true fundamentals of communication. So we will include a link to the guide in the show notes for the episode. So definitely make sure you check that out. It's completely free. It's some of our best tips.

That's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week for when we talk about Vanessa's journey with orgasm and how it led to us starting this business.

I know how one woman's lack of an orgasm led to an empire. An empire.

Not quite yet.

Not yet. But we're working on it.

See you next week.