Episode 106: Exposing Our Biggest Relationship Frustrations With Enneagram Expert Tracy O’Malley

Yeah, this is a great example because it's like, yeah, from my, from my perspective, it feels like things don't rattle you. So this is, you know, just an example of how powerful having this kind of information and knowledge can be for me to realize he is being rattled, he is being affected. He's just showing it in a different way than I would. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm Dr. Just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Dipsea for supporting Pillow Talks. Dipsea is an audio app full of short savings, sexy stories. You can get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com pillow thanks to Zocdoc for supporting pillow talks. Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them, and treat almost every condition under the sun. Go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app to sign up for free and book a top rated doctor. We have a very special episode for you today.

Oh, you don't even know what's about to hit you.

I mean, they probably do because they've seen the title of the podcast episode.

But they haven't heard it. And we have because we are recording this after the interview. So we are coming to you from the future.

Wait, you didn't even say that. You just jumped into the interview. So this is a very unusual episode for a number of different reasons. Number one, it's our first ever interview. We have an expert that we're super excited to share with you. And to be totally transparent with you, we are not planning on having like, this isn't going to become an interview podcast. We take the whole idea of guests very seriously. But we have an expert that we were so excited to share with you and we think you're going to love her. And we also are doing this a little bit differently because we already recorded the interview and now we are coming back to just like set it up and tell you a little bit about it.

Yeah, we're coming back from the future. Or yeah, yeah, we are now. No, we are in the future. Oh, I'm all mixed up now.

Okay, so our guest today is Tracy o', Malley, and she is an Enneagram expert. So I want to tell you a little bit about the story of how this all came to be. So we take our team on retreats twice a year. We all get together in person because we work remotely. We go somewhere, we have fun, we connect, we work on projects. And one thing that we started doing right from the very beginning is doing some sort of, like, fun team reading to learn more about ourselves, how we can work better together. And so we've done all sorts of stuff. We've done, like astrology. We had a psychic. We did human design. We had somebody who, like, reads faces. So it's always very interesting and very entertaining. And so for our most recent one in Nashville, back in November, I put a call out to a mastermind that we were a part of, and we're like, you know, we do this thing. Does anybody have anyone they can recommend? We feel like we've kind of run through a lot of the major stuff. And so one of our friends said, you have to work with Tracy o' Malley and the Enneagram. She's amazing. So the Enneagram, if you've never heard about it, is basically like a personality types model. It's a way of better understanding yourself, who you are, how you show up in the world. And so we thought, okay, cool. Yeah, sounds like some of the other stuff we've done, like astrology type of things.

Yeah. And we were like, yeah, I mean, we kind of know the Enneagram. We've all taken the Enneagram test before. Like, we already kind of knew. Like, we thought we knew what types we were. And we had kind of been using a little bit of that information just about, like, you know, kind of like, high level, who we all thought we were. So we were like, great. Yeah, we can dive into this in a little more detail with an expert.

If you've never heard of the Enneagram before, I thought it might be helpful to just quickly run through the types. So there are nine of them, and they're all numbers. So number one is the reformer. They're the rational, idealistic type. Number two is the helper, the caring interpersonal type. Number three is the achiever, the success oriented, pragmatic type four is the individualist, the sensitive, withdrawn type. Five is the investigator, the intense cerebral type six is the loyalist, the committed, security oriented type. Seven is the enthusiast, the busy Fun loving type. Eight is the challenger, the powerful, dominating type. And nine is the peacemaker, the easygoing, self effacing type. So we hired Tracy for our retreat. We all did our assessments and then we got together to have her do a team reading. The first thing that we noticed is that all but two of us on the team were mistyped. We had taken like a little quiz online and thought we knew what our types was. Thought it sounded like, yeah, I think that sounds like me. No, we were wrong.

Yeah, kind of like astrology. You can like read. Read your. Read your whatever. Like astrology reading for the day. Yeah, I can see how that applies to me. Tracy will talk a little bit more about how this happens.

So then we had her do this, I don't know, maybe two hour long training with our entire team. And she blew our minds, like, completely blew us away. Our entire team fell in love with her within two minutes. We're all obsessed with her now. She's just incredible. And everybody agreed this was the best reading we'd done out of all of the things that we did, like, far and away. We were like, let's just do Tracy every retreat going forward. So we completely fell in love with her because she just, I mean, she has a fascinating backstory which she'll share a little bit of at the beginning of the episode. And she also approaches the Enneagram in such an interesting way. Like, I think personality models, it's very easy for them to feel limiting. You feel like you kind of get put in a box of like, oh, this is your type. But Tracy uses the Enneagram totally differently. And it's really like, as a therapist, it's very much in alignment with how I approach, like, personal development and helping people better understand themselves. So I love her approach. And it's all about just understanding ourselves better, understanding how our dynamics can interact with other people's, and being able to come into relationships with compassion, empathy, understanding. There's also this whole other part of the Enneagram that we didn't know before the Tri types, which. That blew our minds. Like, even just the name of each tri type. When she went around to our team and described each person's Tri type name, we were all just like hysterically laughing because it just the name of it nailed that person exactly. It was so good. So we thought we'd do this episode because we do get asked a lot about the Enneagram. When we do ask us anythings on Sunday, a lot of people will ask, what's your Enneagram type? And so we thought it would be useful to just talk a little bit about this model, why it can be so interesting for understanding yourself and your relationships better. But we also thought, like, obviously some of this podcast is a little bit voyeuristic. You know, we share, like, a lot of personal stories about ourselves, and we thought, you know, we can have this be kind of like a mini therapy session.

Oh, it was.

It was.

It absolutely turned into a therapy session. So we came prepared with challenges that come up in our relationship that we wanted to discuss with Tracy and we gave her free rein to just share, like, yeah, share. What are our challenges individually? And how do our challenges, like, butt up against each other's challenges, like, what are the ups and downs in our relationship? So we really went there, talk a lot about dynamics that can be challenging for us, and Tracy gave us some really practical tips for how we can navigate those. So there is a lot of it that's about our relationship, but there are so many nuggets of wisdom that even if you don't happen to be our exact types, you can use in your own relationship. There's just a lot of. There's a lot of relationship wisdom in this interview. So we are so excited to share it with you.

But before you get into our little couples therapy enneagram session, we gotta give you the review of the week. This week's is entitled thank you. Recently connected to your podcast and social media. Out of chance, my husband shared an Instagram video that inspired the Bristle Reaction podcast, which I then tuned into first. I'm still going through your episodes, but wanted to say that I'm thanking you for your content. So many points that make me feel seen. Hands up. Hallelujah emoji. Thank you for the clinical, authentic, also hilarious approach to a topic that is honestly so important. It's helped start dialogue between my husband and I, who have opposite drives, of course, and helps me reframe a lot of what I grew up with. As someone influenced by purity culture too, we've been affected with major traumas and changes in life in the six years we've been together. So we found it vital to really make sure our marriage is healthy. And we're supported as a team and partners.

Thank you so much for this review. Reviews go so far in helping the podcast succeed. It helps it get placed in front of new people so more couples can discover it. And we do this review of the week giveaway every single week. So here's how it work. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Just go to the main pillow talks page. Scroll to the bottom and you will find the area where you can leave reviews. Leave a review. And every week going forward, you will be entered into our giveaway. If you hear your review read in an episode, you can email us@infomtherapy.com and you will get to pick one of four masterclasses that you will get absolutely for free. Just as our way of saying thank you. And if you don't have Apple podcasts, other ways to support the show are following and subscribing. They're actually incredibly important. Like, just hitting that tiny little follow button makes a big difference. So thank you so much for supporting the podcast and allowing us to continue creating so many free resources for our community. All right, so let's get into our interview with Tracy. All right, Tracy, we would love to know how you discovered the Enneagram and got interested in it. Why did you start working with this model?

If you had told me 12 years ago this is the work I would be doing, I would have laughed at you. Because I came into the Enneagram kicking and screaming. I was not at the highest point in my life. And I was working with my therapist in day two of meeting her. And she's really tough and first therapist that really could see through my my own bullshit. And she's like, hey, I want you to take this Enneagram assessment thing. And I looked at her and I basically told her to F off. I'm like, I don't need a label, I don't need a whole thing. I'm here for very specific reasons, and this doesn't fit into that. And she, with so much love, said, my dear, your best thinking has gotten you here. And this actually might help you get out of the box that not only the world has put you in, but you've also put yourself in and where you're staying stuck sabotaging all the things that have piled up in your 40 years of life at this point. And I appreciated that. First of all, she wasn't intimidated by me because I was coming in hot. And number two, that she straight shot me and really let me know what was in this for me. And it was in that first month of kind of digesting the information where, number one, I found found myself with compassion for myself, which was the first, you know, because usually we beat ourselves up. And that was definitely the case for me. It allowed me to see myself through different lenses. And number two, recognizing, oh, this is why no matter what my intent is from my heart, it's not Landing the way that I want it to on the hearts of my kids, who were teenagers at the time, and every other relationship in my life. I think sometimes we are so well intended, but something's missing and we're not connecting. And this tool immediately let me recognize that there was a better system than just my pride, my forceness and all of that. And so that was the tool that I started using 11 years ago. I was also full transparency in rehab, kind of going through my own recovery process from the obvious problem was alcohol, but there was a whole slew of other things that I threw on the table. I'm like, yeah, we got disordered eating, we've got sexual trauma, we've got codependency, we've got all this. And this tool really allowed me to sift through the wreckage at a much, much faster pace, like I said, with compassion. So I was all in with that. Then I started using it in business and personal relationships. But the number one way that I started using it first was with the relationships that mattered to me most. And it changed everything. Just having a deeper understanding, first of myself and then the other people in my life. So, yeah, kicking and screaming is how I came into it.

Such a journey. I love that a therapist recommended it to you too, because I think a lot of times we look at models like this, like your Enneagram or your astrological signs, and we think they're kind of, you know, silly or there's not a lot of meat behind them. But to have a therapist want you to do this is really cool. So, okay, for anybody who's listening who doesn't know what the Enneagram is, can you give us a rundown of what this model is?

So I'll give you kind of two quick descriptions because there's like the Google, the Google Vision or version of it, and then there's like, why you need to understand it version, which is kind of like how I talk. So I want you to know that. But the Enneagram is a dynamic 9 point personality system that combines sophisticated modern psychology tools with like spirituality. It. It brings together nine different archetypes of how we are motivated and how we are fear, how we fe. Right, great. What's in it for me? I'll tell you. So how I like to explain the Enneagram is this. Like, we have our intuition and our nervous system, and they are beautiful, divine gifts. Unfortunately, most of us bypass out of that pretty darn quick based on our experiences, our upbringing, our traumas, whatever, and we default to the parts of our Personality that protect those fears that kind of have us operating in a mode of. Not always in the highest functioning ways, right? It's survival most of the time. And when we default into those parts of our personality, you know, there's superpowers there that are amazing. It's what makes us amazing. And those same superpowers can be the Kryptonite in our life, right? And the real magic in the Enneagram is not changing who we are, but understanding who we are, but being very mindful that the come from that we kind of go about ourselves in the world is our responsibility. Because those superpowers can only be our superpowers when they're coming from love, compassion, empathy, service, grace, and a little bit of fun, right? That innocence and those same things that are the things that make us magical and amazing and powerful can be the Kryptonite in our life when they're coming from fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, and ego. You know, back when I was in rehab 11 years ago, my intensity absolutely is my superpower. It's what makes people feel safe and protected and empowered. And those very things took my ass to ground zero, right? Because when I was at that point in my life, it was all the fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, and ego. So the cool part about understanding the Enneagram is knowing that you don't have to change who you are, but you gotta know it, and you gotta know where you're coming from. And then obviously, when that one tool, you know, our core Enneagram type, you know, it isn't always the right tool for the job. I can't live in the intensity all the time. Even though it works well in some areas, there's other framework connected to our core Enneagram type. So we're more than just a number. We're more than just a label or an archetype thing. We've got these other tools in the toolbox box that when you know, it isn't the right tool for the job. We have these other things to kind of supplement into our life that can fill the gaps, kind of soften the blow of our superpowers, even when there are superpowers and things like that. But it's really cool. And I find when we use that kind of framework with the compassion and empathy and understanding ourselves, we go back into our intuition and we go back into our body and our nervous system, so that the parts of our personality that are what makes us, us, us, they're operating from the most divine gifts. Of all, which is, you know, those intuitive and. And the body, the vessel. So that's how I like to explain the Enneagram. And that's why we need to understand it.

Yeah, I thought it was so cool. And we did a reading with you initially that it. There's so much more than just the one number. I think before we did a reading with you, we had done some, like, online Enneagram assessments. And we had. We thought we were certain Enneagram types. And it was just sort of. You read the high level description of, oh, this is what this type is all about. And I was like, yeah, I think that describes me pretty well. But I'm excited to talk a little later about diving deep beyond just the number. There's this whole tri type thing and all these other elements that make it so much more than just a single year. One of nine types.

So you already started talking about this a little bit, but we wanted to focus this episode on understanding the Enneagram in your relationship. Obviously, it's our podcast. We're married, so why. And so we start with this idea of understanding ourselves better through the Enneagram. But what can the Enneagram bring into.

Our relationships so much? Let me tell you. You know, first, understanding ourselves and how others might receive us. So myself knowing that I am more intense, and although that can be very passionate and exciting, it can also be emasculating or threatening and intimidating sometimes. And being aware that that is a possibility, no matter how well intended I am, I have to understand that now when it comes to your partner. Holy moly. Like me, knowing this information has allowed me to not pick fights where I typically would, to not maybe take things as personal, even though I'm not minimizing that. It can feel personal sometimes because I understand his motive and his core fears when he's operating in that. Even though it can be very triggering and pictures piss me off, I also know that he's under stress and that's what it's really about. So I can bypass a lot of this, like, you know, bucking horns kind of thing that can happen or completely, you know, disconnecting from each other, you know, depending on your personality and who's in what dynamic. When you understand your partner and understand what their core motive and core fear is, and especially if it's different than yours, even if you don't fully understand how they operate, because you two are very, very different in a lot of ways, it really can help you get to the root of things rather than all this other clutter. That we throw on top of what's really happening in a relationship. And when that person feels seen, heard, understood and valued for who they are and you're not trying to change them and all those things, deeper intimacy, hotter sex, growth in the relationship, all of that stuff happens. But it takes two. It always takes two.

All right, so let's get into personal example here. So let's start with our individual type. So we discovered through you that I am a seven. I thought that I was a three. I really thought I was a three, but I'm a seven. So tell us, what is a seven all about?

Well, actually first, can you tell us, like, why is it that you actually may be a different number than. Than some of the more cursory tests? Because I think that was a big thing for us. We had had our whole team do the assessment and I think like half of us were mistyped. So, yeah, I feel like we might as well start with that since a lot of people might be tempted to just go do one of the freely available ones online.

You know, AI is the new hot thing. And although it's great in a lot of ways, it can't take a lot of our human experience into consideration. And unlike human design or astrology, it's more than just plugging in our birth date, where we were born and the time of day. Right. This is psychology and spirituality coming together. And I do believe we are divinely made up a certain way. But this is where nature and nurture collide. And a lot of those, almost all of the online assessments are inaccurate 65 to 70% of the time. They're a great starting point, but don't just pop it in and say, boom, poof, here I am. And the thing is, is a lot of times what comes out in those assessments are a coping mechanism or the thing that protects your biggest fear. I mistyped as a three as well. And behaviorally, I can look very three like. Behaviorally, Vanessa, you do look very three. Like. Xander, you do seem very nine. Like, absolutely. But when we get to the core motive of everything we do and the core fear, that is where our core type is rooted. And so a lot of the AI and online assessments don't hit you at all. Millions of different angles that my assessment does. And that's why a lot of times, you know you're going to get mistyped and it's not common, it's not uncommon. Vanessa, most high achieving women that I have found get mistyped as a three, especially entrepreneurial women.

Interesting.

I see it a lot and the fact that you're a self preservation 7, it doesn't look like your typical, you know, woo hoo, extroverted, free spirited kind of seven. Even though you do have that playful innocence and like, visionary aspect to you. That self preservation part of the seven I see is very often mistyped as threes. So that being said, the seven is the enthusiastic visionary. I am raising a seven, so. And my closest friends are all sevens. Cause I need these in my life because I am not wired that way.

That's why we get along so well.

It is. It's just like, I see your blind spots. I am obsessed with your work. You bring lightness to everything. That's kind of hard in this intimate space that, you know, is challenging for a lot of us. But as the enthusiastic visionary, your core motive is having all options available to you and not being put in a box and don't tell you what to do and what is possible. And I think even in the the work that you do as a sex therapist, you are so out of the box, thinking and speaking and revolutionizing what we have known as sex talks. Right? Like that is a total seven thing is like bringing a new lightness and a way that we go about things. Nothing is off the table for an enneagram 7. There is no one way to do a thing for a seven. And if we try to put you in a box, that's when we get the more spicy parts of you. Or when somebody tells you you can't do this or you can't do it this way, you're like, oh, bitch, I'm gonna show you. Like, seriously?

Yep. I am well acquainted with those spicy bits.

Let me tell you, Xander, raising one is one of those things that when she would get like that, like when she would feel like options are being taken away or the freedom and choices are being taken away. When my daughter used to get me being an enneagram 8, I was like, oh, we want to fight. Okay, I'm here to fight. I'm for that. And instead of me understanding that, oh, when Vanessa gets like that, that means she's feeling caged in or overwhelmed by people telling her what she can or can't do. And even though the spicy bits come out and usually come at the people they love the most, when you understand that, Xander, you can be a little more compassionate and know maybe some better language to use instead of, ah, don't worry about it. Like, she's gonna worry about it. She's gonna worry about it.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Don't.

Don't worry about it. Does not work on me.

No, that was.

Yeah. Early. Early on in our relationship that caused a lot of problems. Cause I kind of. I've always looked at myself as sort of a bit of an optimist and, like, just having faith that things will work out. And I'd be like, oh, don't worry. Everything will be fine, and be like, don't tell me that.

Yeah, I learned that the hard way, too. And now, like, with. With an Enneagram, what I have found, you don't necessarily have to watch your tone or your timing as much, but the language that you use with a seven is key because, like, with my daughter, I can come in hot and spicy and aggressive, but if I have language at all that resembles, like, I'm boxing her in, the gloves are coming off, and we're gonna go at it. And so, you know, raising a sensitive empath, I don't have to be as mindful with the language, but the timing and tone is important. And same thing with the boyfriend that I've got. I'm like, okay, I have to manage that. But with you guys, like, language will be everything. With an Enneagram, seven.

Oh, God, I love how specific this is. Yeah. Because I'm very specific about language. I can really hone in on certain words and can get triggered by certain.

Words, which, ironically, is interesting because it actually. It ends up. I end up feeling boxed in by the language that I'm using, which is interesting.

I know.

So maybe that's a way that you could have some empathy because, you know, you don't like to be boxed in. And so then when I hear, oh, you just said that. And therefore you must mean this, I feel like, oh, my God, The. The. This word that I just casually used without really thinking it through. Now I've been completely boxed into a perspective.

Well, let's go to Xander. Can you tell us a little bit? So we discovered he's a five. What is a five all about?

Yes.

Oh, I love fives. And fives and eights. I have a connection. So, like, I get fives. And why you do feel boxed in is because you're that quiet specialist and the investigator. Right. And so they're motivated. You are motivated by being knowledgeable and prepared and having correct information. So especially when she starts picking apart what you do say, because you're not a man of a ton of words. But when you do use your words, you're very thought out. And I don't want to use the word calculated because it's not the right word, but you're very intentional when you do speak. And if somebody's coming at you, picking it apart, it hits at your core fear, which is not being knowledgeable and not being resourceful and having the energy and the capacity to deal with the situation. So instead, you withdraw where she comes at it. Like, she's an assertive type. You're a withdrawn type. And I have the same dynamic in my relationship too. Like, I'm the more assertive type. He's a more withdrawn type. So, you know, being mindful that if you're going to come at him with a reflection, compassion on the front end of it and understanding that I know, like, you may not have seen this. And I totally get why. I totally get your perspective. Even if you don't completely like knowing that if you just come in and say, you did this and you said this, he's going to withdraw 100%. And that's his human kind of safety mechanism. Right?

The.

The Fives are the most introverted tendencies. They have the most introverted tendencies on the Enneagram because their biggest fear is not having the resources and energy capacity. So they kind of hoard all of that knowledge and wisdom and energy. And so if they feel like if they. They're going to approach a situation, if they feel like they're gonna have that deplete them, they will back out. They will back out. And that can feel very cold. It can feel very abandoning. Again, it's not personal, but it can feel very personal. And so you just understanding that even when you're in the heat of things. And I know it's so hard when all of our core fears are being nicked, because like I said, my boyfriend is a more withdrawn type. And holy crap, does that ignite all of my abandonment, wounding, and. And all my stuff. And I have to always, like, ground myself and root myself. I know this isn't personal. So how can I approach him in a way that doesn't keep him stuck in the cave? Cause I call it the Five cave, but also creates a deeper intimacy with each other.

So let's talk about the Sevens and the Fives together. What are some common strengths that this combo has? And what are some common challenges?

So in the center of intelligence that you guys fall into, like, remember when I was talking about, like, our nervous system, our intuition, and then we default into a center of intelligence where a core type is, you guys happen to fall into the same center of intelligence. So where you go to first and why you guys are really great is you're both forward thinkers, right? You're both visionary. You're both. When things are happening, your first immediate thought is, what could happen? And that could be really, really good. And that could also mean really, really, like, holy crap. Like, fear and anxiety can come up for both of you. So the good news is, you both forward think, but where you're different. Like I said, Vanessa, you're an assertive type. So you'll go towards things. Like, when things aren't feeling good for you, you will move forward and go after it to make it happen, where he will retreat. And that creates this really. It's very polarizing. Which is awesome, right? Because you both bring definite different skill sets to the table, which is amazing when you're business partners and lovers and all the things. But it can also, especially if one or both of you are off, can feel like, you know, you're in the ring together. And it's like, all right, I'm not going down without a fight, right? But, you know, his need to know all the things. Knowledge, information, energy, resources. Really important. And as a seven, you're like, what's the best that can happen? Anything is possible. And you don't always think things through before you take action. And when you're dealing with a five, that can make them feel uncertain, unsettled, unsafe. Right? So Xander, she's gonna go for it anyway.

But.

And you know this. But, Vanessa, using some language like, I know I'm about to rock your boat a little bit. I'm gonna move really, really fast, and it might make you feel this. I want you to know that I've thought about this. I've thought about this. I've thought about this. So he can understand that you aren't just kind of winging shit and you're not just flying by the seat of your pants all the time, right?

That. It's super interesting. I keep hearing you use that phrase. Like, we wanted to talk about some of the challenges that do come up for us. And, like, a lot of. I was looking at our list of some notes that we took. I'm like. I feel like a lot of them just boil down to the different paces that we each operate at. I feel like I just operate at a really fast pace, and Xander operates at a slower pace, and there's no right or wrong or better or worse than. But sometimes when I'm in that I know pace, it's like, come on, come on.

Like, let's go.

I want you to run with me.

I mean, the funny thing is that I think I don't actually operate at that slow of a pace. What it often is, is more of. It's like, you know, Vanessa will get this momentum at the beginning of a new idea or a new project. And it's not that I want to go slow the whole time. I want to go fast, too, but I want to, like, I want to make sure I feel good about, like, three concerns or something that have come up. And I'm like, just. I see that you have the energy, and, like, I just want to make sure I. We have at least just acknowledged these two or three things 100%, like, first, and then. And that's where we can get really hung up. So, I mean, I think that sometimes.

Yeah. Because then for me, it feels like you don't believe in me and my vision and you're not getting excited the way that I'm getting excited. And so therefore, you're pulling me down 100%.

So, like, with my daughter, like, she, you know, she's a seven, so no stupid idea, she wants. Wants to do all the things. And in my mind, because I'm wired a little bit more in my tri type, also, like Xander, I'm very, like, even though I'm very intense and assertive, I'm also very calculated. And I'm strategist, too. And so when my daughter is no stupid idea time and brain dumping all the big ideas in my brain, I'm like, how the hell is that gonna happen? There's no freaking way. And I know this, but I have to say, listen, you're gonna freaking do all of it. No problem. What two are we doing right now? Like, let's. Let's pick the two apart that you want to do right now. We're going to put all the other ones on the board. They're all happening, no doubt about it. And with that same excitement. So she knows, like, oh, cool. Because A seven just needs you to believe that you believe that they're going to be able to do all the things.

I can do all the things, Babe.

And A five needs to understand that you have some thought process. Process and all this. And you're not going to put him in an uncomfortable situation, especially where he might look stupid or incapable. And because you're business partners and lovers and marriage partners and life partners, it's really important that even though you do move very, very fast and in your tri type, all three are assertive types, so you will move way faster. And Xander does move fast, but it'll never be at your pace. But being mindful that she needs to understand that you believe in her and that everything's possible. And he needs to understand that you take his safety, security, and need to know a few things. Just a few things. I mean, you guys have been in this together, what, 14 years or something? 15 years together?

Yeah, we're coming up on 16. Yeah, 16 this year.

So obviously he gets it. But the more that you can respect his need to know just even a couple things, things will allow him to buy in and be as excited as you in the let's freaking go aspect of things.

And maybe what I can try is, like, you know, when you have an idea or something, you're starting to run with it is that I can acknowledge, like, hey, I'm super excited about this idea. I totally believe in it. And, like, I'm. I'm so excited by it. I just. I have these two or three just nagging questions that are getting in the way of me going. Going all in on the excitement just yet. I just want to be able to talk. Talk these few things over so that I can go all in on the excitement with you.

Don't use the word nagging.

Nagging.

Okay.

Because for me, what it feels like is that. Is that, you know, I am excited about something, and there's. And inside of me, there's this battle of I want to be really excited about this. And there's just these two things that I want to just talk through with someone so that I can feel 100% amazing about it rather than just disregarding them. And I worry, you know, often Vanessa will hear those two things, and she will come to the conclusion that I'm not excited about it. And I'm like, no, I'm, like, 95% excited about it, and I just want to get rid of that other 5%.

What I'm curious, like, what is that about me that I can get the wind sucked out of my sails so quickly?

Yeah. I'm like, this isn't even a big concern that I have, but it feels like it to her.

Feels like it.

Yeah.

Because you're a visionary and you see the end zone, and you see at the very end of this how beautiful it is. And you don't love the process, and you don't love the systems to get there and all the details. You just want to run real fast to the end zone, which is amazing. Who doesn't love to score the touchdown, right? And, like, celebrate in the end zone? But for him, he needs to understand for him to be running down the whole, you know, field with you, he just needs to understand a few things. And the other thing that you as a seven, this is a beautiful reason why you guys also work. And I remember when I was telling my daughter about her sevenness, and I was telling her, she's connected to the five. You're connected to the five. It's one of your supplemental tools in your toolboxes, the five. And she was like, oh, my God, that's so boring. And it's too much information. And what I usually like to say to a seven, it's like you guys walk around with glitter and seeds in your hand, right? And you throw them around. And that's what we love about you. You get us all really freaking excited. Like, very, very excited. I mean, you have couples that are telling you, like, all the seeds that you've been throwing out and all the these beautiful things that you've created for your audience, like, you've made them excited to try things that are very scary for them. So that is your gift. The thing with the seven, though, if you're throwing your seeds out, you know, knowing they can produce the most beautiful fruit, if you don't have the container in the environment for them to take root, then, you know, the wind is going to blow or the. The rain is going to wash them away, the birds are going to eat them, and nothing gets produced. So as a seven, knowing that you kind of have to go into a five cave from time to time, just tiny, tiny bits of time, not for very long, to create that environment, that container, so that all these beautiful ideas and creations and visions that you do have as a 7 can actually take root and produce the end zone vision that you have. So knowing that you five is your strength card.

Yeah, I actually, I do have that in me. Like, I can go really deep into a research mode and, like, gathering information. I can get obsessed about. I mean, even something silly like skin care, you know, and then I'm researching, oh, what are the ingredients and how do they put stuff together? But in work, like, I can definitely go, you know, okay, let me figure out. I'm gonna gather all the information for this new course that we want to make and what's the outline and what's the flow of it? So I definitely can go to that, like, information gatherer part of my brain.

This also has to do with that self preservation part of you, the instinct of. Of the seven that you happen to fall under. It's safety, security, and comfort. Right. So it can make the seven, like, for work. It's very different because that is like, I mean, you love what you do, you're passionate about what you do, but it's also what keeps a roof over your head. It's also what gives you security. Right. It is what you do for a living. And especially if somebody is slowing down your process and you're headed towards that end zone, whether it's the vision or the safety and security. Yeah, it's gonna ruffle your feathers a little bit and you're gonna be like, let's go, let's go, I wann it. Or you're going to be angry and get more rigid and perfectionistic and critical.

Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about Dipsy. We have been getting DMS from so many of you telling us that you are experimenting with Dipsea and really loving it, which makes us so excited to hear. So Dipsea is an audio app that shares short, sexy audio stories. So it's like, like a sexy podcast. You get to listen to a story, it's right into your ears. It is a very interesting and novel way to get yourself turned on and excited. You know, low desire is one of the number one complaint, probably the number one complaint that we hear about from our community. And this can be a really incredible and simple way to light a little bit of a spark. So there are hundreds and hundreds of stories to choose from. The app is designed by women, for women, and there is a story about anything, anything and everything that you can imagine. So you can explore old favorite fantasies that you have. You can experiment with some new fantasies that you might not have realized that you had. There's just so much to check out within the app and they're even releasing new content every week. They're even starting to expand into sleep stories if you need a little bit of help falling to sleep, some wellness sessions and also sexy stories that you can read. So if you have been curious to read some stories, I know a lot of people these days are hitting up those book talk books, but this is an easy way to have a couple of options all within your fingertips. It's a really great app and the bottom line is that you can have a 30 day extended free trial. Dipsea is offering this just for listeners of Pillow Talk. So. So with a 30 day free trial, it's like there is nothing to lose. Check it out, see if you like it, see if it's lighting that spark for you. If it's not, there's nothing to lose. But I really think that you're gonna be surprised by how Exciting. It can be. So go to dipsystories.compillow to get that extended 30 day free trial. 30 days of full access. Go to dip S E A stories.compillow dipsystories.compillrow a few weeks back we did an episode called is this normal? And this is also a question that might come up around your health. I mean I think we have all been there, right? We are secretly googling these symptoms that we have trying to figure it out. I know Xander often resorts to the guys group chat because you have a doctor friend. So you guys all send him like your messages about your weird symptoms and just try to figure out what the heck's going on.

Yeah, you know, I try to help my friend get to play Dr. House. The reality is he's a surgeon. He's not like a family practice doctor. So I don't know, maybe I don't trust him so much on the regular everyday stuff. But you know, if I need a surgical issue, the group chat is great. The reality is I don't need a surgical issue 99.9% of the time. So that's where Zocdoc comes in.

In ZocDoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them and treat almost every condition under the sun. So it is time to stop driving yourself nuts to like be increasing your anxiety because you're just googling around trying to figure out what's going on. Like just turn to ZocDoc to be your trusted guide. You can make sure they're in your neighborhood, they have great reviews, they are available for appointments right away. Like Zocdoc just makes everything so easy. It really lessens the burden, minimizes any surprises. So go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's z o c-o c.com pillow zocdoc.com pillow well, let's get into the tri types now because this was something that I had never known about before we did that session with you. So can you describe like what are the tri types and then tell us, tell us what our tri types are.

Yeah, this is, this is next level enneagram stuff and this is really where emotional intelligence and critical thinking and and full bodied understanding of ourselves. And this is also why you can, this is probably also why you mistyped as a three because it's in your Tri type. It's also why like, like you and my daughter are both sevens, but you're very different. Like, you're motivated the same way, you fear the same way. But how you go about getting those things looks very, very different because your tri types are really different, right? And so remember at the beginning when I was talking about the intuition and nervous system, I'm going to keep going back to that, because that's the holy grail in all of this, right? Is to be able to be in that as much as humanly possible. And then we default into the center of intelligence where our core enneagram type falls. So you guys fall into the thinking center of intelligence. Well, there's two other centers of intelligence on the the enneagram, and three types fall into each of those centers of intelligence. So there's three in the thinking center, the five, six, and seven. There's three in the instinctual or body center, which are the eight, nine, and one, and then there's three that fall into the feeling center, which are the twos, the threes, and the fours. Now, we do use all three centers of intelligence. Obviously, we will always use our core one to exhaustion first, almost always. Like, you'll go through all of your seven and five ways. You'll use the lines and the wings that are connected to you, the other kind of tools in your toolbox. But when that doesn't always work, this is when we'll kind of default to the other centers of intelligence. Now, in the instinctual center of intelligence, those three types, where I'm included in that, we go into what is happening right now. Like when, when things are happening, we are very instinctual. What is happening right now? Those three are motivated by some form of independence, autonomy, and control. And then in the feeling center, those three types, the twos, threes, and fours, go into what has happened, right? And they're motivated by significance. Now, you guys being in the core type, in the core center of intelligence of the thinking center, you're motivated by certainty. What could happen now when we are operating in what is happening now and what has happened for you two, you dominate in a type, in the instinctual center, in the feeling center. It doesn't mean you're ever motivated like those two types that you also lean into. But they are great resources and they can be very amazing, right? When we use them proper ways and also in other ways, they can also kind of see where we go down a different rabbit hole. Hole, right? And when I was understanding my own tri type, I was like, well, this Makes a hell of a lot of sense. Like yeah, I'm an eight and I'm spicy and I'm aggressive and all those things. But when I go into the past, I operate a certain way. And when I'm going into the future, I operate a certain way. And so this is where our tri type comes into play. And so you, Vanessa, like I said, you have all three of the assertive types. So there's three assertive types, there's three withdrawn types, and there's three compliant types. And you happen to have all the, you know, and there's one in each center and you have the assertive types in all three. So even though you're a self preservation seven, your tri type is the seven, three, eight combo. So when you are operating in the feels and into what has happened, you operate very much like a 3, which doesn't like to slow down at all. Like they are see a goal, hit a goal. See a goal, hit a goal. So when you have your big ideas, this you immediately like okay, let's go. Right, because even when you kind of seek evidence from the past, you don't always look at like the bad things that happen. You see how this has worked out for you, so you're just gonna go right. And then in the instinctual center, you dominate like an 8, which is what I am. And they're not afraid of anything. And they're like about being strong and the flex and proving like I got this, I got this. So you can see where that 7, 38 combo can be really, really amazing to make things happen. But also where you can leave people in the dust and it can make people feel, make you feel unsafe to people. Cuz it's like, God, has she really thought this through or am I just part of the plan here? Is she really into me or is she really like care about me? Right? So understanding that that mover and shaker, which is the archetype that that tri type is called, I mean you're the entrepreneur of the Enneagram, even with the tri type. And so understanding that the 3, 7, 8, like I said, you're called the mover and shaker, which means you're ambitious. That's the three innovative, that's the seven. And the eight is protective. So you want to be efficient and happy and straightforward. You are a go getter. You are focused on the prize. You're an expansive powerhouse. You see the big picture and have the will and the strength to make it happen. Like I said, you're an empire builder for sure. And obstacles are seen as competitive challenges. Whereas for somebody like Xander, like, the obstacles can slow down his whole process. Because his tri type is completely different than yours. Completely. So the cool part about this is, is each of your tri types don't have matching numbers. And so you bring a lot of elements that you need to be a great team together. But without understanding of that, it can create friction and disconnection. If we don't know what we're working.

On, we bring six of the nine, our forces combined.

Hey, six and nine. It's a good little number right there. So for Xander, obviously, he resides in the Thinking center as well. And as a five, you know, he will always be motivated and fearful like a five. But how he operates in the instinctual center is very, very different than you in the what is happening now? He operates like a nine, which is the Peacemaker. Right. And they are like the Yoda of the Enneagram or, you know, the Eeyore of the Enneagram, depending on where we're at in our level of health. Right. So a nine at their best is that faith, the wisdom, the seeing the bigger picture, the inclusivity, the how we make this for the greatest good of us all. Right. And he's also a social five. So he is all automatically kind of operating in how we fit in the collective here. But that 9 energy brings this faith and wisdom and. And how do we speak this in a way that honors us all and what's in it for us all. Where, Vanessa, you can be like blinders on and just going for the end zone all the time. And it's why you guys are great as long as you understand that. And then in the Feeling Center, Xander operates like a two, which is. So do I. And that is the compassionate, empathetic, considerate helper. So that 5, 9, or the 2 and 9 are very service driven for other people, where the 5 is kind of the intellectual gatherer with that 5 or with the 9 and the 2 combo. Partnering with the 5. It's where we feel his heart. It's where we feel like, whoa, we have to think about this. We have to think about this. We have to think about this because he is thinking about the greatest good for not just you two as a couple, but like especially in your work for the rest of us who will be digesting and, and leaning into your content and in your creations. And so as the 25 or the 52 9, he's called the problem solver. Really great. When you got a mover and shaker, you need. You need an integrator, like a mover and shaker. Can't operate without an integrator. Problem solver. And that is what Xander is. So with the 5:2:9 combo, he's caring, which is the 2. Right. Knowledgeable, which is the 5, and accepting, which is the 9. So he wants to be helpful, wise and peaceful. He has a shy, gentle, reserved nature and tends to focus on what is harmonious. Right. And when he's not at his best, this is where self abandoning can come in. This is where numbing out can come in. Right. So like it's really, really great that he's got these, but we also have to be mindful. Like this is where I can kind of shut down and go into the shell and go into that five cave where nobody can find you.

Yep.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting hearing you describe that especially sort of like the, the social element of the five and hearing the way that you described that. Like, I can see how, yeah, for me, you know, the, the way that I can feel empathy and also sort of like see this bigger picture of how I, or we fit in with other people. It, it at times can be really exhausting from a social or an emotional perspective if I have any type of anxiety because can. It can turn into social anxiety really quickly if it's like, oh, I don't fit or I don't belong here, or like I'm not able to be, I'm not able to bring the harmony that I want to be able to bring to a situation.

Well, and your tri type is interesting because the 5 is super objective and able to disconnect emotionally, which is great. It's what makes you great. But then you've got these competing things in the other centers that are empathetic and are sensitive and are considerate of others. And so when they're clashing against each other, it is exhausting and it is like, I'm tapping out. I can't, I can't keep at this pace. And so just understanding of that about yourself and where you can get into trouble, obviously is when that be. That becomes too much for you. Either you isolate and shut people out or you might focus excessively on the needs of others, which creates, you know, a codependency trap or, you know, the self abandonment kind of things. So struggling with that, just being mindful of it. And it doesn't mean we pull out the shame stick when we kind of go into the unhealthy. It's like this is where we find compassion. And where can we use this, this other framework to kind of meet ourselves where we're at with compassion, empathy, love, grace, and then also take action. Because inaction, when you feel overwhelmed is what happens for the problem solver. It's when it's too much, you feel like you're not good enough. There's no harmony possible. And you are tapped out of energy and resources and knowledge. Xander's like, I'm out.

Yeah, screw it.

And you can be right in front of somebody and be completely out and they may see you, but they're like, something just happened energetically and they can't put their finger on it. And it can. That's where, you know, it can feel cold and not caring. And we both know, like, that's not the case. But being mindful that. And I can do that too. I can do that too. Because you and I have similar tri types. I'm different, obviously, of the eight and you have the nine, but I have the two as well. So just being mindful that that can happen and how do you move through that or communicate in a way, it's like, listen, this is what's happening right now. I don't feel real good about this and I'm just going to go to my little cave temporarily and it isn't personal, I promise you, but I need to kind of gather myself here and I'll come out of this better, stronger, and ready to rock with you.

Yeah, I've definitely found that when I'm feeling that way, just the, just the simple exercise of just trying to express to Vanessa, like, oh, I'm feeling a little withdrawn right now, or I'm feeling bummed out or I'm feeling, I'm feeling whatever. Just naming that that a little bit. I mean, then that brings that connection back.

Let me ask you something, Vanessa, when he says that to you, because Sevens don't love being stuck even in hard feelings. So I have a friend that's a self preservation 7. And when her husband and partner gets into like, I'm not feeling so good, I'm feeling withdrawn. I'm feeling maybe not my best part of her before she understood this was like, okay, okay, now let's get a plan to kind of bust you out of this. Do you try to rush his process?

Yeah, I mean, that's definitely my instinct is. Yeah, I mean, when he says, like, I'm just feeling bummed about something, my instinct is a little bit of panic and like, oh, God, like, I don't want to linger here for too long. And so it's interesting because I have the therapist part of my brain that says it's just a feeling. And we, you know, we just have to feel our feelings. And when we feel them, the feeling feelings pass faster. But the instinct is definitely feeling like, I've gotta, I want him to get out of it quickly.

You know what's really interesting is that so like I am the problem solver. Right. And you, you, you know, you don't love it when I jump into problem solving mode when it comes to visionary stuff. But what you just described, you know, what both of you were just describing, is that from an emotional perspective, you are very much a problem solver. It's like, oh, oh, you're not feeling good. Here's a plan. And so it's just, it's interesting how you don't love the, you don't love like the objective problem solving, but you, you lean into the emotional or like the energetic problem solving.

Yeah, I do.

Because a 7 doesn't want to be boxed in by somebody else's vibe. And if you're. Yes. And if you're low vibing her problem solving, whether she's conscious of it or not, is kind of a self serving kind of problem solving. Cause she's, she doesn't want to be stuck in the low vibe. And, and Right. Yep.

Yourself server.

I mean, we're human, for crying out loud. I mean, it's like, oh, crap, there it is.

Like, no, that's such a good way of describing it. Yeah. I don't like, I don't like getting stuck in the vibe when the vibe's not right. I don't like it.

So although you love and want to.

Help it, when I solve, when I solve problems for the greatest good, I want to make, make you feel better. It has nothing to do with me ever.

Exactly. And that's like, that's the cool part of understanding this. It's like, and you don't have to like when you, when I told my friend about that because she was dealing with that in her partnership and I was like, well, you realize that you, you only want to help him right now because it's take, it's bringing you down. And you come by this very innocently because you are such a high vibe, let's freaking go kind of person that even for a split second if he's there, like you're set self preservation, comfort, safety, security, like it's robbing you of that. If he's. And if he stays low vibe too long, how is this going to impact you, right? And same with my partner. He's a self preservation type and he's a self preservation 4 and it can get really dark. And me as like this one on one enneagram8. I'm like all about intensity of experience and I have to really navigate that otherwise I'm gonna blow some shit up in our relationship if I don't understand my part, his part, and how the parts come together.

That's interesting. And yeah, another dynamic that comes up around that. I think it's so interesting in relationships how we get ourselves into these very contradictory kinds of situations. Like on the one hand, one thing that I find myself feeling like wondering about is it feels like nothing ever rattles Xander. And sometimes that even annoys me. I'm like, I can't get thrown off course so easily and I can judge myself about that. And Xander's just like steady and calm and even. So sometimes I'm like, I kind of like want to rattle you or like, I want to. I want you to be bothered by things maybe. So I don't feel bad about being bothered by things. But then when he is bothered by things and I'm like, no, you're messing up the vibe. So just. Yeah, I think that's a good example of like, we send our partner really contradictory messages sometimes.

Yeah, it's this like, come here, go away. Like, show me something, but not too much or. And I want you to know with Xander, like, it does rattle him. He just internalizes it where you get more. Like I said, you're the more assertive type. So you'll go after to kind of make that not feel so intense for you where he withdraws and he goes inward and takes it in and then, you know, that's a whole different thing. He does feel it and it does rattle him. But how he expresses it is very, very different.

Yeah, I'd say it doesn't not bother me.

Not. Not like he feels all of it. He does.

Well, yeah, this is a great example because it's like, yeah, from my, from my perspective, it feels like things don't rattle you. So this is, you know, just an example of how powerful having this kind of information and knowledge can be for me to realize he is being rattled, he is being affected. He's just showing it in a different way than I would.

I got to think about it first.

Yeah. And feel, think and feel. Because he, I mean he has like in the 2 and the 9, they are compassionate and empathetic and. And feel the energy of people and situations, but his five part of him is, like, analyzing how this all makes sense. And so, like, he. He. The two types that are in his tri type that aren't his core type are the most empathetic. So he does feel all of it. All of it.

Okay, here's one of Xander's contradictions is that I know that he's a thinker and he spends a lot of time, like, you know, in his five cave. And he's also an external processor. And that can drive me nuts sometimes because there are times where he's just. The way that he figures out what he thinks and feels is by saying it out loud. And he'll say something like, okay, I feel xyz. No, actually it's more like abc. And as that very literal, very language focused type that drives me me nuts because I'm like, no, no, you said xyz. So I don't care that you're saying it's actually abc. You said that. So that means you feel that.

Which is funny because you are a brain dumper of, like, visionary ideas and you change your mind all the time, right? But because he says something, then changes his mind, it throws off your vision and that pisses you off or like, it annoys you. And that's normal. Like, he will. Like, he is very analytical. He does have to process. And because he feels safe with you, he verbalizes it. With most of us, he won't verbalize it.

Oh, yeah. I don't.

Right. Right.

Interesting.

Yeah. I mean, I think about it too much, to a fault with other people. And that maybe limits my. It. It hamstrings my ability to form quick connections with people.

The other thing, Vanessa, is he's connected. The five is connected to the seven as well. And it kind of manifests more under stress. So when he feels overwhelmed, his brain can operate like a 7. Not necessarily in the visionary, but, like, he's got too much going on upstairs. And if he doesn't verbalize it, he might spin out or isolate even more. So when he does start verbalizing and verbal processing outside for you, recognize that he might be in a seven zone, which means if he doesn't do this, he might isolate even more and shut you out even more. So just like, even though I know it's annoying for you to slow down and, like, be like, wait, you said this now you said this. It's too much information, right? Just recognize, like, oh, okay, he might be overwhelmed with too much information. He just needs to, like, dump all this on the table for me.

Me I like the, the understanding that he's doing that with me because he feels safe doing that. I don't think we've ever. I don't think I've ever heard you say that before. That you feel it's not something that you can do with other people.

He's not afraid of looking stupid with you. He's not afraid of looking like, he doesn't have all the answers with you, which is huge for a five. Fives usually don't verbalize anything unless they know for sure it's true and it's accurate. So the fact that he does that with you is, Is a compliment.

What, a reframe?

Yeah. Well, I mean, because I, I feel like we've talked about this before in that, like a lot of the things that I struggle with outside of our relationship, like, socially or whatever. Like, you, you've never had that same experience with me. Like, and I feel like you've commented on that before. You're like, well, how you can't not be good at that because, like, you're great at that with me. You don't have any trouble talking about this with me or sharing, you know, do whatever it is. And, and at the same time, it's like outside of my relationship with you, a lot of these things are really challenging, interesting.

It's a beautiful thing. It's a compliment. And I, I've experienced that too with really deep conversations with my partner. It's like he has no problem. I completely opening up to me. And then in other areas of my life, I'm like, come on, you got this in you. But I get it. And I also recognize that that means he feels, you know, intimacy is into me, you see, and having that level of intimacy with somebody like you have the, the most beautiful form of intimacy in the fact that he feels safe to open and let you see all parts of him, even the parts that have no idea what the hell's going on. Which for a five, that is like their biggest fear is not being knowledgeable and wise and prepared. So next time it annoys you, just remember it's a compliment. And you'll find the endearing parts of that. And what I'll usually say to people is like, especially in romantic partnerships, imagine your partner is a four year old and how would you speak and think about them? You would never be like, God, you're so annoying. Sometimes times four year olds can be annoying. I've had two, so. But most of us look at the innocence of a four year old and it's like so every time I'm annoyed with my partner, I try to picture that beautiful face of his as a four year old before I come in hot and spicy and aggressive. And I try to find the more gentle way to communicate that I have needs here in this relationship, in this partnership too. And I understand where you're coming from and where can we meet in the middle so that we can move forward together.

That's such a great tip that I think anybody can use. And also for interacting with ourselves too, when we go to places of self judgment.

Yeah, you and I talked at length about that.

Oh, yes. I got a framed picture of myself that I look at every day, me and my mom. Okay. I want to just give Xander some tips for dealing with probably the situations that get you the most frustrated with me, which is what I now understand from Tracy. When I get into my visionary mode, you know, it's like I have the vision of how I think things are supposed to go. And this can be for enormous, like big business decisions. And it can also be like what I'm going to have for lunch, but.

Food is very important.

I felt very validated by that when we talked.

And you like my daughter. When I take her out to eat, I. I just prepare myself. The bill is gonna be very high because she wants everything and wants to just have one bite of everything. I'm like, I do like to try.

A little bit of everything. It's true, but so with these visions, I can get knocked off course very easily and I can get frustrated or feel upset. And I know that you are often on the brunt end of that frustration and that upsetness. So how can I better manage those moments and how can Xander better support me in those moments so that they don't feel like they rattle us as a couple so much?

Well, for Xander, like I said before, like, language will be everything and front loading with whatever you're going to reverse engineer for her, which might slow the process down with like belief and excitement that all of it's possible. I believe in you. I'm as excited for you. And in order for that to happen at the pace you want, Vanessa, we gotta reverse engineer a little bit. But I promise you, if you like, meet me here, we can move forward much faster. Like, that's a beautiful way to execute that language. Like everything with the sevens, like, we're doing all of it. All of it. And I'm very excited. And enthusiasm is key for them because they pick up on the energy of if I am in my strategy energy, the sevens in My life are like, you don't believe in this. This sucks. Or they'll move on to somebody else who has that same excitement.

Yeah, that's so. This is, this is so. This is so good. Because what's going on inside of me when I do that is I'm really excited. I'm just like, look, let's just be objective about this for a second. Let's just talk through these two things. There's nothing personal about any of them. It's just like simple, straightforward, logical stuff. We gotta get out of the way so that I can. Can be super excited.

Xander, do a cartwheel. Do a cartwheel. Do something like a dance. Rah rah. Get some, get some pom poms or something like with. With my sevens. Like, even if. Because I'm going into strategy and reverse engineering immediately and everything and I'm poking holes in everything. It's just how I'm wired and it's why I'm great. But when I'm dealing with a seven, if I don't, energetically, even though like my brain is going, oh my God, oh my God about impossible. Impossible energetically, I have to be like, okay, be enthusiastic and, and supportive of where. Who they are first so that they actually buy into my strategy. Because the thing is, is the sevens in my life know I am their biggest fan, hype girl, cheerleader, like believer in them. And because I am that and I get to that energy right away, I'm the very first person when it comes to reverse engineering, creat. Creating systems around it. They trust me because I see, hear, understand and value where they come from. Even though, Xander, I don't know how they function. I really, really don't. Most of the times I really don't. But Lord knows you and I need more of that in our life. So the more that you can get and front load heavy with enthusiasm, then you can kind of like luber up a little bit for the strategy. So it is perfect word for that.

And you know, you know what's, what's really interesting about I just thought of this, is that like, I probably kind of got set back a bit in that regard because so my. My first career out of college was I worked for four years at a consulting firm. And I was very successful there because of, because of the type that I am and because of that even keeled energy and not getting excited about things until I had all the details. Because then, you know, I'd be working with. With a partner on a project and be like, okay, let me get all the detail. Let me ask all the questions in a calm way. Then I go back to my desk, I get the team together, and like, it's, let's fucking go on this. And so that was super successful. But it was because I was working with all a bunch of people that are probably the same types, because those types of people tend to be successful in the consulting.

Now you're working with the ultimate visionary, which is the opposite of that. And you love her, and you love her and it's your life partner. And so, like, there's a lot of moving parts there, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think we will need to listen to this episode and go back and listen to Tracy describe it, because when she said it, I was like, okay, okay, good. But then when you were practicing it, like, earlier, and you're like, I have the two nagging questions. I'm still thinking about nagging. And I'm like, ugh, not the nagging question.

What I need to do is when I'm asking the. The questions, I need to just do a silly dance. Because we've discovered recently when the vibe. When Vanessa's vibe seems to get thrown off and she's like, you know, and she's going downhill, and I'm like, wait, what's going on? Like, I feel fine. I just. I found. I just. So I'm. I'm horrible at dancing. I just start, oh, I've seen your moves.

You're good.

Move my body a little bit. And Vanessa laughs. And then everything is cool. It's true.

The vibe check. It is. It's.

You know, when we're so used to people like Vanessa being so high vibe all the time. And one of the things that sevens get frustrated with is when they are low vibe. We're so used to them not being that we try to fix it or we try to rush their process. And, like, what you just did is be playful. You're not trying to fix it. You're not trying to give her strategy solutions, but you're making light and playful. Like, that is probably the greatest strategy to help her when she's in a low vibe is being fun silly, and not trying to micromanage how to get her out of that.

Yes.

The more playful you can be with her when she is like that, the more that that's gonna go away faster.

We stumbled upon an enneagram solution here. Yeah. Because Xander's approach for basically our entire relationship was like, trying to talk me out of it. And like, and. And the more. So this is when we reverse and you become the pursuer and I'm the distancer. Like, the more you would push at me, the more I'm like, mm, mm. I don't wanna. I'm stuck, and I don't wanna get out of being stuck. But then when you switch to this, like, playful, fun approach, then it was like, okay, I can't help but of course it's hot. It's hot.

Then, yeah, my daughter, she's. It's two sevens in a relationship with different tri types. But like. Like when he. When they try. Like when you try to work a seven out with strategy and, you know, words, they. No, they will feel like you're boxing them in even more. So more playful, more innocent fun. That's the surefire way to get a seven out of the funk without, like, telling them they. Their low vibe.

I think one of my favorite parts of the Enneagram and just this conversation that we're having, is the way that it encourages understanding and empathy for each other. Because especially in relationships, it's so easy for everything to feel so personal. And I mean, I do this all the time. Like, you're doing this to me. You're like, being, you know, mean or rude or difficult, like, on purpose.

And you're doing it because you know exactly what's going to happen. And you want me to feel that way.

I think we all do this. You know, it just. It feels like, yeah, we happen to magically find parts. Partners who trigger all of our shit, and we magically trigger all of their shit. But this is just a way of understanding. It's not that we're trying to torture each other or be mean to each other. It's just that our stuff interacts in different ways. And if we can use the Enneagram to draw back and sort of look at it more objectively, like, okay, here's all of our stuff. We're laying it out on the table in front of us, and this is how these pieces fit together. And these ones have a hard time fitting together. It's a really different approach. I think it can help so many couples feel so much less stuck.

Well, and one of the things that I know that you guys really heavily communicate with everyone that uses the tools that you guys provide is that it's the intent and the integrity in which you use them. And I mean, Lord knows I wasn't introduced to the Enneagram earlier than I was, because I would have used it to manipulate, to shame myself and others to try and control. Right. So I want to remind you, listening Right now, this is a tool, and it's the intent and the integrity in which you use it that will make it magic in your relationship. Right? Cause if you're gonna use this and then like, say, oh, Xander, you're doing such a five thing, and it's coming with the shame stick, not okay. It's like, babe, I understand where you're at right now. And, like, I get it, I get it. Like, that's a total reframe. Even if it annoys you. Like, Like, I. I am annoyed by my partner, who's a four ways of doing things. But if I say that like, oh, you're being such a four instead, I'm like, I understand that your natural tendency right now is to retreat. And I get it. And I'm gonna let you know if you do that without communicating where I'm gonna go. And that doesn't end well for either of us. Right? It's just using this tool with integrity and beautiful, compassionate, loving intent. That is how you make your relationship stronger, better, more powerful and more intimate. Which we all know where that leads to, right? It's what you guys all talk about. It's the good shit. Real good sex happens when you allow this intimacy and understanding of each other at a deeper level really come and all the cards are put on the table with no fear of anybody using those cards against you. And that's the magic of the Enneagram. When used properly and with the right intention. Intent behind it. Love it.

Do you think the. The types show up in the bedroom in the same way, too?

Yes, they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great.

So I just need constant enthusiasm in the bedroom. And that's.

And options and fun and. And he. He wants to be technically really good and wants to know he's doing everything the way. Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And there's. And not always in a healthy way. So I'll use myself as an example, because, you know, I'm going to be fully transparent. Like, as an eight, I'm the most intense and aggressive on the Enneagram. And in my past, when I wasn't my healthiest, I would use that as a power manipulative way to lure and get what I needed and what I wanted. And if I was that good and that intense and that powerful, they wouldn't leave me. And quite honestly, the very opposite happened because that intensity was emasculating or threatening or mean. Right. But now that I know, like, how to use this. This intensity in a beautiful way, and because I'm with a Partner that is equally as intense. It's awesome. It's awesome. But I've been with partners that weren't. I've been with partners that weren't. And understanding this information might have made that a little bit. Bit better. And having more language around that. And when I work with couples, we do talk about this because it does show up. It does show up. And especially, you know, that emotional connection, you know, for. You've got the two types of people, right? The people that find connection through the physical act, and some find it through the emotional act. Right? You guys talk about that all the time, and especially in the emotional wins every time. I know you don't like that, Vanessa. Right? Like, you're the more physical one, but most of us, you want to be able to opt into that, because that will override everything. And this information and knowing how to use it will show up in the bedroom in all the most beautiful ways, too.

So what is one thing that I can do to give Xander, as a five, the best ever experience? And what is one thing that he can do to give me, as a seven, my best ever experience?

For you, Anything she wants, like, nothing is off the table. Give me the no stupid idea list of all the things that you want to try tonight, and I won't reverse engineer a damn thing about it. We're just gonna be playful, fun, laughing, innocent. Like, the more laughter, like, you guys doing all the sex tips, like, that's probably the thing that likes to do.

I was just thinking about that because I was like, that. The prep that we did for those two episodes, like, technically, that was some of the worst sex we've ever had because we were trying terrible tips.

But it led to.

But it was like, the experience overall was one that I will never forget because it was so much fun. Like, laughing and trying these and having this, like, list of things that we were gonna try. Like, it was super fun for me.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and also, that's, like, where I think my relationship with our sex life really changed, was that I used. There was for. I don't know, probably more than 50% of our relationship, I was scared to try new things because I wanted to be technically competent or I wasn't sure that I was gonna like something. And so I would manipulate the situation to shut down ideas and, you know, to. To kind of direct us back towards. Towards the. The familiar. And when I finally realized that it has. That it has nothing to do with. It's. It's not about me and how good I am, and it's just, it's just about the shared experience that we have that's like when things completely changed.

And for him, even though you guys probably know this but like he is a romantic, there is a part of him that is a romantic that to the nine like he's going to tend to want to just make it about pleasing you and making sure you have the best experience. But that two part of him and that nine part of him, there is this underlying desire of their needs being met. And without having to use words, he will never probably typically ask for what he would ideally want. And so the more that you could maybe slow down and just get real serious in a romantic, sensual kind of way might light him up with. But he doesn't want to have to ask for it. He will never want to ask for it A because he doesn't want to look incompetent even though I know with you guys it's different. But just whether he's conscious of this or not, that 29 part of him in the tri type wants him to believe that his needs aren't as important as yours. So anytime you can go over the top with taking care of him without him having to express it or verbalize it, win, win, win, win, win. And promise you he will over deliver for you every freaking time.

Yeah, I love that. So I'll. I can make you king for the night and you can come up with a list of terrible sex tips for us to try together.

Great.

Okay, Tracy, I could talk to you for many, many more hours, but I will try to draw to a close here. But I know people are of kind going to want to learn more about how they can find you, how they can work with you. So can you tell us all the things?

Few things. So obviously getting the right typing is important. Otherwise it's kind of like, you know, a GPS system. Like you want to go to Mexico but you're put in the wrong coordinates, you end up in San Diego, which isn't a bad place to end up, but it's not where you're intending and where you're supposed to be going. So having the right information is really, really I have an assessment that is accurate over 95% of the time. And I've created custom blueprints. It's like your roadmap. It's seriously your sole handbook that gives you all the ins and outs of who you are, all the components that are attached to you so that you know what you're working with. Now, obviously, just like anything, you know, having the handbook is one thing. And if you don't know how to make sense of it, it can get a little challenging. And especially if you're in a partnership. I do individual sessions, and I do couple and partner sessions all the time, and those are my favorite. And we do talk about sex in those. Like, I go for it because it's important if there's problems in the relationship, that's being affected, for sure. Right. And so we. We do talk about that. So I do partner sessions as well. If you want to dabble in the Enneagram, I have a podcast called Lead with the Enneagram. I talk about all things leadership, personal and professional. I do have an episode about sex as well, because that's part of, you know, I take the holistic approach to who we are so that you can attack it at all ways. You can find all the information@traceeomalley.com I'm also on Instagram @tracyomalley for all that information.

Awesome. And I know you put together a little discount code for our audience as well. They can get 5% off the Enneagram blueprint if they use the code pillow.

Yes. So you can go to my website, the Enneagram blueprint. That's where you get typed accurately. Plus your. Your blueprint, you will get the special sex talks pillow discount for all your people.

Awesome. Well, we definitely highly recommend the couple's session. This has been very enlightening. I feel like I'm going to have to go back and listen to it a couple of times and you know where to find me, take some notes. But thank you so much for spending time with us today and sharing all of your wisdom with our community.

Thank you. Absolutely. My pleasure, you guys. You're doing beautiful work in the world, and I'm just honored to be a part of it.

All right. Wasn't that amazing?

That was great.

I love Tracy.

I know. Me too.

She's so great. This was so helpful. Like, I. I just. My mind is blown. I really do want to go back and listen to that again because I was focused on, like, you know, being an interviewer and trying to make sure the podcast, like, flowing nicely, but I kept catching myself being like, I have to really re. Listen to that. That was so good.

There's some real good nuggets.

There's some really good stuff. So, honestly, I do not take recommendations lightly. I'm a little bit bonkers about recommendations because when I recommend something like, I really feel like I'm putting my integrity on the line.

And.

And so it's a big deal if I recommend somebody. And I just love Tracy so much. I think she's wonderful. I love her heart and her energy and just cannot highly recommend working with her if you feel drawn to or just at least following her, checking her stuff out. She's so great. And we will put all the links that she mentioned in the show notes. So we hope that that's been helpful for you just learning more about the Enneagram, how it might be able to serve you and your relationship, stoking some curiosity.

Yeah. Let us know what you think Let us know what you think about the Enneagram. Let us know what you think about having Tracy as a guest. We love your feedback. All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we'll have advice from our queer community. For our queer community.

Sam.