Episode 11: How Vanessa Turned Her Orgasm Struggles Into A Sex Therapy Business!

Every woman should listen to this episode. Even if you have girlfriends who are like, oh yeah, I orgasm all the time, no problem.

Does not mean that they are.

At least one of them is not. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with 20 years.

Of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

So make sure to subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

Today we are going to do something a little bit different. I will be interviewing Vanessa. Uh oh, you're in for it. Who knows? This could be like a whole new format for the podcast. But look, the reality is not that many people have met a sex therapist, myself included. When I met Vanessa, I had never met a sex therapist before. I probably heard the term before, but maybe not. Like I feel like, you know, you hear sex and therapist together and your mind's like, okay, yeah, I know what that is. I'd never heard of anyone be like, we need to go to a sex therapist. Or like, I wonder what a sex therapist would say. I was like, huh, this is interesting. I definitely never thought that I would end up in this field. I just thought Vanessa was an interesting person to tell like my coworkers about, like, oh, yeah, I'm in a relationship with, I'm getting married to a sex therapist. Sounded, and now I get to say I have a sex therapy business. Though I'm guess technically not a sex therapist.

You're an honorary sex therapist, babe.

Thank you.

I'll make you a little certificate.

So because not very many people have met a sex therapist, a lot of people also become really curious when they find out you're bad, backstory of how you got into this field. And the thing that I think most people don't know about is that some of your struggles, our struggles together, even with sex, served as your primary motivation for building this business and helping other people. And one of those particular struggles was with your orgasm.

Yes.

So today we're going to hear from Vanessa to learn a little bit more about her orgasm struggles. My orgasm journey, Vanessa's orgasm journey. What it was like, what changed how it felt and how that led to her creating this business.

Before we get into all of that, first we want to read the review of the Week and this one says enlightening and entertaining. I listen to this podcast in the morning, first thing while walking my dog and it is the best way to get my mind in the right place for the day ahead with my spouse. So many laughs and good info that not only benefits our intimate relationship, but also nourishes our sense of humor, humor and openness together as a couple. Thank you, Vanessa and Xander, thank you so much for that review. I listen to my favorite podcast on a walk with the dog, so that feels like a special thing to know that somebody else is doing that on their walks.

And thank you for reading that. Vanessa, I think that you are so much better at reading these reviews than I am. You just inject so much more personality.

Thanks. And we also just want to say thank you to everyone who is leaving reviews. It really means so much to the podcast. It helps us grow and reach more couples. And a quick little reminder that we are doing a giveaway just to say thank you for taking the time to submit your reviews. If you leave a review for us on Apple Podcasts, you will be entered into a giveaway every single week going forward. We pick a winner every week and you can send us a question or tell us about your situation and we will send you back a voice or a video message with our best advice. It's like a little mini sex therapy session.

Yeah, we actually just sent one to a previous winner yesterday. It was really nice. They sent us a great question. We took some time to think about it. We recorded a couple voice memos and hopefully really helped her out. All right, so let's talk sex therapy and orgasm journey.

All right, I'm ready.

Let's just start with People always want to know what originally inspired you to get into sex therapy. What was that very first inspiration?

It was my parents version of trying to give me the talk. So I was about 11 or 12 years old. We were cruising back from my grandma's house in our minivan and my mom and dad were in the front. My mom was driving and she looked at me in the rearview mirror and she said, if you have any questions about, you know, sex, you can ask us. I knew in that moment that what she was actually saying was, please for the love of God, do not ask us anything. We don't want to talk about this. This subject is off limits.

Yeah, pro move. The whispering. Whispering the word that gives a lot of, a lot of confidence to your kid, your partner, your friend that you're really feeling confident and comfortable with a certain topic.

Yeah, my dad Was, like, frozen in the passenger seat. Like, didn't make a move. Do you think a single thing.

Do you think that your parents strategized about this before? Like, had they planned or did your mom just kind of. Was she like, oh, shoot, it's about that time and that age. Let's just do it?

Like, was pretty much a plan beforehand, and because I'm sure they would have agreed that my mom would be the one to initiate the conversation.

Did your dad participate at all?

No, not at all. So I remember in that moment, you know, I was very young, but I remember feeling like I have a lot of questions that I want to ask.

Vanessa always has a lot of questions. She's kind of like an investigator at heart. She really missed her calling to be a detective.

I really could have been actually just, I think that week, I had made a bet on the playground with my BFF, Nikki B. @ the time, we had bet about how many holes a woman had down there, and Nikki was a boy, and he guessed 3. I guessed 2. I lost an entire.

Dollar. Nikki B. Was really knowledgeable, very ahead of his time, knowing that the answer is three at that age. Very impressive. Yeah, I definitely. I definitely drunkenly lost that same bet when I was a freshman in.

College. No, you did not. You told me this.

Before. It's embarrassing. I blame it on the alcohol. I was very. I was very. I was drunk, and I very boisterously thought that three was ridiculous. And then the next morning, my friend who I made the bet with made a lot of fun of me, and I felt really.

Silly. So here I am thinking, like, Xander's going to interview me with all these questions that he already knows the answer to. And now I learned something new about you that you've never told me.

Before. Yeah, you know, as I'm. As I am thinking about that story, I think the other wrinkle in it is I believe that I lost that bet in front of the girl that I was dating at the time.

And she didn't say anything, poor.

Thing. That being said, we never had.

Sex. So actually, I want to know now. Come find us on Instagram vanessamoran Therapy. And please make us feel less bad for thinking that women only have two holes down there. So if you ever thought that there were only two holes, too, or if you still think that there are two holes, shoot us a DM and let us know so we don't feel so alone in.

This. Yep, there's.

Three. So, anyways, back to my bet with Nikki, who, by the way, ended up coming out to me several years after that. So he was a gay man and knew more about my body than I as a.

Woman. I am.

Impressed. We salute you, Nikki. So, yeah, I did have a lot of questions. I wanted to talk about it, and even though I was so young, I remember feeling like, why is this so embarrassing? Why can't we just talk about this openly, like the way that we talk about so many other things? I had no clue at that point that sex therapy was a career, that this was something that I could do for a living. But that moment really, really stuck with me for the rest of my life. And I just kind of kept coming back to that idea of, like, why can't we talk about.

This? I can really understand what you mean there because I have a pretty good relationship with your family now, and your family is really open. You're really close with your family, and so I can imagine this probably felt like a striking difference. We've already given away in the intro that you have struggled with your orgasm, so we'll get to that in a little while. But I'm curious, what was your early experience with sex and orgasm like before you got to being sexually active and having partners, et.

Cetera? So this is a story that I haven't really ever told publicly before. I had my first orgasms on the playground as a little.

Girl. How old are we.

Talking? Oh, gosh. I think maybe it was like third grade or something like.

That.

Okay. Didn't know it was an orgasm. I wasn't trying to have it, But I just noticed one day that climbing the jungle gym and the ropes and stuff like you do. Yeah. The pole like you do at recess, like, all of a sudden, one day it fel really, really.

Good. Why is Vanessa always on the pole? None of the other kids can slide down the pole. No fair. I'm actually kind of shocked that you didn't get in trouble for, like, dominating the.

Pole. It was a big school. There were lots of other polls. There were a lot of how many.

Poll. Okay, so I went to the tiniest school. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. You know, small town, like 80,000 person town. I lived in this mountain community outside of the town. My elementary school, K through 6, I think, had maybe 200ish people. I think there was really only one jungle gym. There was like two sides of the playground that was like K through three side and then the like, fourth through sixth grade side. Fourth through sixth grade side. Definitely did not have a jungle gym. Pretty sure that was probably only one.

Pole. You know, public school, man. I. We had a lot more jungle gyms around, so I don't think I monopolized the whole thing. But yeah, I mean, it honestly, you know, it wasn't until years and years later that I finally pieced together what was happening. And now that this is my career, I've come to realize, like, this is an extremely common thing. So many young kids discover masturbation and they don't know that it's masturbation. It's not sexual. It's just like an exploring of their bodies. But for so long it caused me a lot of shame, like, what's wrong with my body that this is happening. But I really like it and I want it to keep happening. And I think this is a very common.

Experience. I imagine this might be a little more common with women than men in terms of maybe even having an orgasm at a young age because you can kind of stimulate yourself in a more incognito way, you know, like, you know, no one else would have.

Known.

Yeah. Unless you were, you know, spending like 20 minutes just going up and down that pole. But, you know, the real. It sounds like your experience was just that it was like, oh, slide down the pole, like, woo. That was.

Cool. Yes, those are my early experiences with orgasm. Again, it took me, you know, many, many years to realize what that was, but it came to me pretty easily initially. And then years later, when I did start being sexually active with a partner, you know, with my boyfriend at the time, I realized that, like, I could not at all replicate that same experience. And I don't think I even knew by the time I was sexually active of like, oh, yeah, that thing that happened when I was a kid. There's gotta be some way that I'm supposed to replicate this with a partner. I think I just went into being sexually active, you know, really unprepared for it and just sort of thinking like, okay, I just replicate what I've seen in the movies and on TV shows. You know, he's supposed to get on top of me and just do his thing and I'm just supposed to lie there and it's going to be good for.

Me. Yeah. Why would you think anything else? Especially because your conversation with your parents definitely didn't include that.

Information. So, yeah, this continued for a while of, you know, many years of me being intimate with my boyfriend and just not ever being able to have that same sort of pleasurable experience of just feeling like, okay, like, you know, I felt cool, like I'm having sex, I'M such an adult, you know, I'm in love with my boyfriend, and we're gonna get married. It's just you know, realizing, like, is this it? Like, is there supposed to be anything more into.

This? You just felt like, as you're kind of coming of age sexually, I imagine, like, me.

That, you know, you're.

Moving. Yeah. Not coming of age, but you are focused on intercourse as the be all end. All right. Like, that's kind of what everybody talks about, the Mount Everest of sex. At least back then, when you feel like, oh, my God, I might never do this.

Thing. My boyfriend using his hands or his mouth on me. Like, it was fun initially because of, like, oh, this is brand new. We've never done this before. But it very quickly turned into, like, intercourse being the main.

Thing. And I imagine you kind of feel like hands and mouths are lesser than. Because of this whole metaphor we have of, like, rounding the bases for second, third, home base. It's like, no one wants a triple when you can have a home run. Like, triple doesn't score any runs unless someone else bats you in for sure. You know, the funny thing, I just thought of this right now, like, the only inkling or message I got about female orgasm. I think probably American Pie. Watching American Pie, I rented it. My parents watched it with me at home. I think I was. When did it come out? I think I must have been 16 or 17. Maybe if I were a couple years younger when I saw it, maybe this would have sunk in, because I was already kind of starting to experiment around 16, 17. But, you know, there's sort of the scene of, like, one of the girlfriends is, like, not enjoying messing around very much, and the friends of the boyfriend are like, oh, you got to do this oral sex thing. And then she's going to really be into you, and then all of a sudden, she's love. You know, it's like, oh, well, you know, girls don't really enjoy sexual activities. Except for.

This. I don't know. That definitely never sunk in for me. It always felt like intercourse was supposed to be the.

Thing. What happened with orgasm? Like, did you feel like you were supposed to be having orgasms from, like, the first moment you had sex? Like, what happened.

There? No, I don't think I even knew about female orgasm until many years later. I don't remember exactly when, but maybe it was right at the beginning of college, you know, somewhere around there. But I started to realize, like, oh, yeah, I am supposed to be enjoying this a lot more. I am supposed to be Having these things called orgasms. I did at that point what I think the vast majority of women have done at some point in their lives. I started faking orgasms. Yeah. As soon as I had that realization of like, oh, I'm expected to orgasm, I'm supposed to. Then I just felt so embarrassed that this wasn't happening naturally for me. And I think there was a sense of shame too. You know, I've been sexually active for a few years now. What's wrong that it's never happened to me? I guess I felt this sense of like having to catch up. Like all of a sudden I'm realizing this expectation that was sort of in place going back all the way to the my very first.

Boyfriend. You know, I know from experience at that age, the last thing you want to feel is like you're behind the.

Curve. Oh, exactly. Yeah. So I started faking it. And also a part of that was like I didn't want to be honest with myself about it either. Like I felt very embarrassed and ashamed and just like, what's wrong with me? Why is this not happening? So I kind of wanted to fake like for my own well.

Being. And back then, did you ever have any kind of conversation with your girlfriends about this? Was this a topic that anyone talked.

About? No, no, not at all. Like maybe once I got to my later years of college. Nowadays we're talking about female orgasm and pleasure much more openly. But back in my days, I'm feeling really old now. But it was definitely was not talked about at.

All. Yeah, I mean if I go back in my own history, I back through even like back to middle school amongst guys, like there was a whole dynamic of like guys that I knew at school, I found out later had been lying about certain exploits for years. Like in middle school there was a guy that I was friends with who he had moved to the town that I lived in from another city. So like nobody knew who he was. And basically he made up this whole elaborate story about how he'd been having sex for the last two years. And you know me at age 12 or something, I was like, of course I'm believing that. I have no, you know, I'm like, oh, well, he moved here from Santa Fe, which is like a bigger city. And you know, these, these city kids, city folks in Santa Fe, like they're having, they're having sex. And he like convinced all of us at my friend's sleepover, he like convinced us all like, oh yeah, like you're going to be having sex this year. And I remember thinking, like, I just thought it would be cool if I, like, went out with a girl and maybe kissed her. None of those things happen. Absolutely none of them happen. I actually know I. I went out with a girl, which meant I never kissed her. I, like, maybe hugged her twice. She wouldn't tell her parents that we were together, so we. So we never went on any dates. Real good seventh grade experience. So, yeah, I mean, just knowing that there's this whole dynamic of no one wanting to be behind the curve, people almost kind of being incentivized to lie or exaggerate about what things are like for them, because, you know, sometimes we just fake it till we make it. So it is not a surprise at all to me that you felt like something was maybe wrong with you and you maybe needed to fake it till you made.

It. I was hoping that that's how it would happen. For me, faking it, it was really a lot about protecting my partner's experience. I was much more focused on my partner than on myself. And so faking felt like the best option because it, you know, it could protect my partner's feelings and their ego. Like, he wouldn't have to ever have to worry that he was, like, not good in bed or not doing the right things. And definitely, you know, when I was in early stages of relationships, like, I wanted it to feel like we have good chemistry. It's a good fit between us. Things are just flowing so naturally. I also wanted to feel like I wasn't too difficult or I wasn't too much work. I think a lot of women have that experience in and outside of the bedroom, too. Like, we want to seem like, oh, we're just so chill and, like, I hardly need anything. You know, I'm just so easy. Don't I want to just slide right into being your girlfriend? Yeah, faking felt like the best option. So I did it, and I did it for many, many.

Years. So it probably felt good for him. But what did it feel like for.

You? Well, I think anybody who's ever faked an orgasm knows that it is unbelievably unsatisfying. So, of course, like, you're not getting the pleasure of sex that you could be having. You're not having a real orgasm. So that's unsatisfying in and of itself. Faking orgasms, there's, like, a real emotional impact to it as well. For me, like, at a certain point, I had done it so many times. I mean, I probably faked hundreds of orgasms. I had done it so many times for so long that I got to a point where I had even fooled myself into, like, thinking I was having an orgasm so I could put on this really elaborate show of this really over the top performance of I'm building up to it, and then it's so explosive. And then I'm, you know, having such a hard time coming back down to the earth afterwards. And I think I really started to fool myself into it. And then after the orgasm, there would be this moment where all the shame would just come flooding back over me if, like, nope, that didn't happen. Like, you're faking it. And I think that's really what started to happen for me on an emotional level is I started to feel like a fake. Like I was being inauthentic because I was. I was playing a role, you know, So I wasn't being myself in the bedroom. I wasn't connecting with my partners, so I started to feel like a fake. And then this extra wrinkle on top of all of this was that I started pursuing my career in sex therapy. Like, I had my first internship at age 17, you know, and started working towards, like, yeah, I really want to do this as a career. I want to help people. And so I have this extra layer of imposter syndrome on top of all of that. Like, how can I be studying human sexuality? I'm at an Ivy League university, like, getting this degree, and I cannot figure this out for myself. Like, who the hell do I think I am that I can do this as a career and help other people if I can't even figure this out.

Myself? Oh, man, I can totally imagine at age 17, 18, 19, that young of an age, let's say, yeah, like, you're doing an internship with another sex therapist. If it were me, and I was like, I really want this as a career. However, I'm struggling to orgasm, I would probably feel really inclined to not ask this sex therapist, who's a great person to ask, hey, what's up with orgasm? Because, like, sex just isn't that good for me. But I would feel like, well, I couldn't possibly ask that, because then she's gonna laugh at me and be like, what are you doing? Like, this isn't the right career for you. Even though the reality is, looking back now, I'm sure we both know that person would be really kind and really gentle and probably be like, this is so common. Thank you so much for asking about this. You are not alone. But in our heads, we go, well, we must be the only.

Person. The longer that time went on, the worse it started to.

Feel. And I can also imagine that, you know, early on it might feel really convenient. I think my partner is expecting this. I'm going to fake it because I want it to feel good between us. And the assumption, you know, probably as we keep having sex, like, I'll figure it out, it'll start to get better for me. And then time goes on and it's not getting better, and then you're, like, having these very elaborate fake orgasms. And then you're probably thinking, well, God, even if I do ever figure it out, like, what if it isn't really, like, the way that I'm faking it? Even if I did figure it out, how could I even incorporate the real thing into this act that I'm now.

Doing? Yeah, the longer that it went on, you know, the deeper the impact started to become, you know, around my relationship with my body, my sexuality, and with my partners. It really changed the way that I had sex. I wouldn't let my partner touch me for too long because I was worried that he would start to get bored. I wouldn't give feedback because I didn't want to, like, interrupt the flow or, like, you know, make it seem unnatural in any way. Like I was saying earlier, like, I was really playing a role. It wasn't me in the bedroom having sex with my boyfriend. It was like, you know, me playing this role of this woman who loves sex, and she's so orgasmic and so wild. I also made me lose touch with what actually did feel good to me because I'm so focused on playing this role and putting on this show of, like, everything feeling so amazing that there's no way I could pay attention to what actually did feel good to me. So I was losing contact with my own connection to my body and understanding what felt good to me. Obviously, there was no way a partner was going to learn what genuinely felt good to me because I was responding to basically whatever they would do. It just became really difficult. I think maybe one of the overarching themes at that time was that it felt very passive. On the one hand, I was being very active about putting on this show, but I was being really passive about expecting that orgasm should just all of a sudden start happening. Like, I think you said earlier, fake it until you make it. Like, I was kind of wicketing, like, okay, I'm faking it a lot. Like, when is it actually gonna happen? It felt like I was taking away my own agency during sex. Like, I'm just Kind of lying there waiting for something to. Something magical to eventually.

Happen. And then you're probably not even able to focus on the waiting for the something good to happen because you're thinking about, like, it's been about two minutes. It's time to start the orgasm routine or something. I imagine that you're probably almost watching yourself from outside your body, observing your own performance. And it's like, yeah. And it's like, okay, so this is. Did you have in your head, like, okay, some amount of time goes by and start. Then I start the thing. Like, did you give yourself a little bit of time.

Maybe? Oh, no, no, no. It was like, almost immediate. I think I would give myself maybe, like a minute and there would be this little. Little glimmer of hope, like, maybe this is gonna be the time. And I think that's something that a lot of women can relate to too. Like, a lot of the women that I've worked with have said, yeah, I would give myself a minute, maybe two minutes. And then it was like, all right, showtime. There were all the steps, slowly increasing my breath and then making a little bit more noise and then moaning even louder, you know, like, I had the whole routine. And, yeah, it was just so easy and quick to go into that. There was another piece of it that started to creep in as well. After, you know, a long time, which was resentment. I started realizing, like, what am I supposed to be getting out of this? And, like, why am I having sex? It's all about my partner. It's all about him. He's enjoying himself. He's having a great time. He's having these wild, over the top orgasms, and I'm not. I'm getting, like, very little out of this. It was this sense of resentment where, you know, on the one hand, I was feeling pretty hopeless about orgasm, feeling like, gosh, maybe it's just not gonna happen for me. But on the other hand, I was also kind of feeling resentful of my partner, of like, well, why can't you make it happen? And why do you get to have all the fun and I get nothing? That started to affect my sex drive even as well. It was like, you know, well, why do I want to be having sex if it's not feeling good for me? And I'm just doing this same old tired routine that I've done so many times, and I'm sick of.

It. It's just worse.

Work. Yeah, it was definitely a lot of resentment and started to poison a.

Relationship. Eventually, something had to change. Unless you're gonna tell me that you're still faking.

Them. Oh, that's the real twist of this.

Episode. That would be the real.

Twist. Oh, my God. By the way, babe, for the last 14 years, I have been faking every.

Orgasm. I hope.

Not. Don't worry, I'm.

Not. All right, so, but tell me what.

Changed? I can just like see that little glimmer of fear in your eyes. There's like a little, like little tiny shred of you that's like, oh my God, has she been.

Faking? Yeah. We're gonna have to refund every, every single purchase of finishing school that has ever been.

Made. I swear. I promise you they are.

Real. Tell me what, what did change for.

You? Okay, so this is another story that I haven't really told very often. And it's a hard story for me to tell, but I'm trying to get real with you guys. So there was a straw that broke the camel's back for me. There was this guy that I had started dating and he was just your classic bad boy. I knew right from the get go, like, this guy is not emotionally available. This is going to go nowhere. I am going to get my heart broken. Like I knew it, but I could be the girl to change him, finally make him not be a bad boy anymore. The first time that we ended up being intimate with each other, I was so excited about it, you know, really into him. And he started using his hands on me and he just immediately was so rough. Real hard, real fast, no warm up, no nothing. It was actually painful for me. I think the resentment kind of came to a boil in that moment of like in the past, a lot of the times have been like, this is fine, but it's not super pleasurable. But this was like, I am hurting. This doesn't feel good. So I did a very fast, really shortened version of my orgasm performance and faked an orgasm. And we're lying there afterwards and he said the most cringe worthy line to me that I hate saying, but I will say it. He said, I can play your body at like a flower fiddle. It was full of so much bravado and like macho man energy. And I almost threw up in that moment. You think that you brought me pleasure. Like I was in pain and now you're bragging about how well you know my body. And I think there was also this element of like, yeah, I've been kind of operating under this belief that like a partner should just be able to make it happen for me. But then when someone finally Verbalized that. Like, oh, I know you so well. I can do this to you so well. I was like, you, dude. No, you can't. So.

I. Did you say.

That? No, I.

Didn'T. Have you. Have you been. Have you. Have you had a lot of fantasies about going back in.

Time? Sure, for sure. No, I think I just went like, in the moment or something.

Terrible. So. So guys, guys out there, next time you're having sex, and she goes, oh, so great. Think. Think about this. Fire foreplay guides. And then that will never happen.

Again. I just didn't have the confidence at that point in my life. I got fired up for myself internally, but I didn't have the confidence to like, express that to him. But for me, that was the turning point. Like, I remember leaving his apartment and walking back to my place and thinking, I am never doing this again. I don't care how hard it is. I don't care how embarrassing it is. I am not getting myself back into this kind of situation because this felt.

Terrible. Tell me a little bit about what happened after that. That, I guess that started the orgasm journey for you. So what did you.

Do? Yeah, I mean, I wish that I could say then the very next time, you know, I had an orgasm for real. But it was a journey for me. Like, it took some time and it took a lot of experimentation and playing around. And it was very challenging for me because I couldn't find any resources, even studying to be a sex therapist, being a part of this field. Like, I couldn't find any practical step by step tools, like, here's how to do.

It. Which I guess is kind of the proof in the pudding that, like, there isn't just a simple, like, do this or do that. You know, it's like, oh, try the one of these three things and voila, you have an orgasm. That's why, unfortunately, it is a long process and that's why we have a large online course that teaches.

That. Yeah. But so for me, the most important first step that I took was making some really powerful mindset shifts. And again, these were not things that happened overnight. I want to be real about that. But, you know, the first one for me was I needed to realize that, like, nothing is wrong with my body. Like, my body is perfect and wonderful. I realize, like, I've been taught a lot of BS about my body. I don't have a perfect relationship with my body to this day. But I think I had to recognize nothing is wrong with me. I want to give myself the space to learn. So I shifted out of that mindset of thinking, like, I'm broken. This is hopeless. It's going to be this way forever. And I made myself have hope. Nothing's wrong with me. I'm going to figure this out. Let me just give this a shot. The second mindset shift that I had to make was believing that I was deserving of pleasure. And this was a really big one because I'd spent, you know, basically my entire sexual life, like, you know, faking my own pleasure and focusing more on my partner. And I, you know, I knew rationally, like, yeah, I'm supposed to get some enjoyment out of this, but I.

Think you have no.

History. Yeah, there was, like, a really deep emotional blockage around feeling like I wasn't worthy of it, you know, and that showed up in, like, really practical ways, too, of, like, only letting my partner touch me for a minute or, you know, focusing more on trying to pleasure him. I had to help myself recognize, like, I am deserving of pleasure. I am deserving of a sex life that feels passionate and playful and exciting and connecting and, like, deserving of a sex life that has something for me in it that I can show up into. It's my authentic and real self. And I had to get, like, a little fired up about that and get myself, like, yeah, this is bullshit, that I don't believe that I am worthy of this. I have to change this. And then the final mindset shift that was really powerful for me was giving myself permission for it to not happen overnight, because, again, it didn't. You know, it took some time, and it took a lot of experimentation, and there were times where I did feel hopeless and scared and worried that this wasn't going to happen. But I really tried to give myself that permission of. This is going to be a journey for me. I'm going to figure it out. But I don't need to put this pressure on myself. I don't need to get perfectionistic about it that it's going to happen overnight, because it's not. And so those three mindset shifts, like, that really changed the game for.

Me. And, you know, just to normalize the thing about, like, how long it takes if I just rewind the tape a little bit on my own story, I think a lot of guys out there probably have similar stories. I honestly haven't really talked, checked with too many people. So I'm curious. If you're listening and you have a similar story or a different story, let us know. For me, it took me a long time, a year from the time That I learned what masturbation was, that it was a thing that was, like, reasonably okay, like, it wasn't gonna harm me. And the time that I actually ejaculated for the first time from masturbation because, you know, I didn't really have much information or resources on it. No. No one in my family talked to me about it. It was like, one of my friends sort of had a book that his mom had given him that was, like, sort of about sex. It was, like, written for teenagers. And I had just read little short bits and pieces because it was too awkward when I was over at his house to be like, hold on, I'm gonna read this book for half an hour. So, you know, I knew little tiny bits and pieces where it was like, okay, well, this book says it's okay, so I better go play around with this. And it took me, I think, honestly, a year to actually ejaculate. And honestly, I was really scared. Like, I got close a couple times, like, right before, you know, in the weeks leading up to my first time really doing it successfully. And, like, I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I was like, this feels good. It also burns. Like, is this going to get really good or is it going to get really bad? And then one time I was like, I just have to.

See. I just have to.

Know. I just have to know. And then, you know, the. The floodgates were.

Open.

Literally.

Literally. That's a really, you know, an experience that a lot of women relate to. Like, you know, now I've coached thousands of women through having their first orgasms, and that fear of, like, what is this going to be? Like, it really scares a lot of women and, you know, creates blockages for them. But I'm glad that you share that story about your journey with orgasm, because I think a lot of women don't start trying to learn how to orgasm until they're.

Adults. Yeah. And the problem is, for me, I was. I was between 12 and 13. I want to say I still had many, many years of doing that, honing my skills, getting, you know, and, yeah, it wasn't immediate the first time as well. You know, men train themselves to come very quickly for a variety. A whole variety of reasons. That could be a whole nother podcast. Oh, yeah. Typically, most men have been basically training themselves for many, many years how to do this thing by themselves. Yeah. Efficiently as possible. They are simulating what intercourse is like with their. So then it's. Yeah, it's like, no. Should be no surprise that, you know, the first time a guy has sex, usually it goes really quick and he knows exactly what to do and he has an.

Orgasm. Yeah. But, yeah. So I think there are a couple of key points there. Like, one is that you took a lot of time, so we need to recognize, like, this is not an overnight process. It takes time. But also, you started early. And I think when we're younger, we have a little bit more, you know, grace with ourselves, like, giving ourselves more permission to, like, explore and try things.

Out. Oh, yeah. I had all the time in.

The world living in your little mountain.

Community. Oh, I do. I go to bed. I go to bed. You know, I'd be like, oh, well, what am I gonna.

Do? We should post a picture, like, with this episode of what? The house that Xander grew up in in the middle of a redwood.

Forest. Oh, we can. My lot. My loft bed in my.

Room. I can see a single house from it. It literally was in the middle of the woods. I like to tease him that he grew up without electricity or running.

Water, but that part's not.

True. Not too far from the truth, though. But, yeah, so, like I was saying, like, I, you know, I work with a lot of women who don't start their orgasm journey until their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. And, you know, once we get into those later stages of life, like, we have a lot more pressure on ourselves, and we feel like, oh, my God, I'm already so behind. You know, what's wrong with me? I'm never going to learn. But the reality is, it's like we're just starting at a different.

Time. Yeah. I really think once we get beyond those teenage years, like, are we kind of have, like, a clock that's just ticking, like, life is busy. Things are happening. We don't. We don't feel like, oh, yeah, I have all the time in the world to figure this out. It's like. It's like, hey, I have all these demands for my. Conflicting demands for my time. And, like, am I really gonna spend, like, an hour every night for a couple months trying to figure this thing out? That feels, like, really challenging. So skipping over all the months and months of trials and tribulations, like, once you figured it out and now that you've been doing it for a long time, like, what is it like, what is life like? What is sex.

Life? Tell me everything that orgasm live. It's good, man. So, you know, when it comes to sex, like, now, I have this confidence that it's going to be a pleasurable experience. So you Know with you and I. Yeah. I just feel that confidence each and every time. Like, I know I can get myself there. I know I've now taught you how to get me there. So I feel just this confidence of, like, I'm going to get something out of this. This is going to be a good experience for.

Me. If you want an orgasm, you got an.

Orgasm. Yeah. So it's increased my sex drive for sure. Like, now I want an experience that's pleasurable. It makes sense for me to have a sex drive. I feel very open when you initiate with me because I have that confidence of knowing, like, yeah, I'm going to have a good time. Like, okay, I also initiate with you, which is something that I did not do for the majority of my sex life. For me, it just sort of felt like, why do I want to initiate this thing that, like, I'm not really going to get a lot out of it? It's very similar to the sex drive issues during sex. Like, I feel like I can really relax. I can be present in the moment, I can enjoy myself. I can actually be there rather than, like, in my head or, like, spectatoring. Like, I used to be. Like, I was almost watching myself have sex rather than actually being in that moment having.

Sex. Do you ever catch yourself still, like, that old habit of, oh, has it been too long? Like, should I start my thing? And then you remind yourself, like, oh, no, that's.

Not. It did at the beginning stages of our.

Relationship. Yeah, I can understand that because there, I imagine there still is that desire of, I want this to be perceived as easy or as. As like, we have a good.

Connection. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But at this point, you know, we've been together almost 14 years, so I've kicked that habit. I've been having real orgasms a lot longer than I was faking.

Them. Yeah. Because we actually definitely had a little. Not friction, but just like a reckoning at the beginning of our relationship in terms of figuring out how to ensure that you had as many orgasms as I did or that you had as many orgasms as you wanted. It was definitely a dynamic at the beginning where, yeah, I think, you know, you may have been kind of prioritizing, like, our sex life.

Feeling. Well.

Yeah. I mean, uncomfortable. And then eventually it was like, oh, this is a serious thing. Like, we gotta get this down and get it.

Right. Yeah. You know, when you and I started dating, you had been told by a past, by the ex girlfriend before me, that orgasm was really difficult for women and just, like, not really, to focus on it. Like, that was the nicer thing to.

Do. It was like, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. It's equally enjoyable nonetheless. So, like, better for me to not worry about.

It. She'll appreciate you or you as a.

Man. Yeah, like. Like, she will appreciate it if you, the guy, focus on enjoying yourself. And if she comes, she.

Comes. I came into our relationship with, like, this really, you know, budding new relationship with my orgasm of, like, still working on all these things about asserting myself and believing myself worthy and, you know, the technique aspect of it and all of that. And so, yeah, we had a miscommunication early in our relationship where I started to feel like, huh, this guy doesn't seem to care at all. Like, he's not really focusing too much on me. And it wasn't like an egregious thing, like, this guy is such an. An asshole. But it was definitely like, you know, I'm trying to assert myself a little bit more, but I'm not really, like, feeling much from him. And so we finally had to have a conversation where I said, yeah, like, I want you to focus on me, and I want my pleasure to be a part of it as well. And that was a very hard conversation for us to have. But I'm really glad that we had it. And I'm glad that I also could recognize that, like, it wasn't a malicious thing from you at all. It wasn't like you were just being selfish and you didn't care about me. It was like. Like you thought that that was the best thing for you to.

Do. Yeah. And even if my story was a little different that that past partner, like, she was having a lot of orgasms with me, and I knew the way that it worked for her. It's very likely I would have come into our relationship being like, oh, yeah, you do that one thing that really works for her, and that's, like, the key to orgasms. It very likely wouldn't have been great or wouldn't have worked for you. It's very likely we would have had the exact same situation come up, like, the same type of misunderstanding. Because I think a lot of men feel like once I figured out how to do her orgasm, you just do that one thing, and that's the answer. And the reality is every woman is.

Different. This is such an important thing for heterosexual women. Obviously, we're being a little heteronormative right here for heterosexual women to recognize. Like, I think it's very easy for us to assume bad intentions from Our partners, because so many of us have had complicated relationships with our orgasm and haven't been experiencing a lot of pleasure. And especially if you've been with somebody for a long time, like, it's really easy to feel like, God, he's so selfish. He doesn't ever think about me. He doesn't care. You know, he's just focused on himself. And the reality is, like, you know, as women, we're taught a lot of BS about our orgasm. And men are taught a lot of BS about female orgasm.

Too. Or even worse, a guy, you know is with an early partner and she is faking, and he thinks, oh, I know what to do. I know how to. I know how to make women have an orgasm. And probably most or all of their partners after that do the same thing. And so it just reinforces this idea of, oh, yeah, I'm competent. I know exactly what I'm doing. So. So, yeah, like, you know, is it possible to have some empathy or sympathy for your partner who really, maybe thinks, truly thinks that he is doing the right thing and it's actually just been the wrong thing the whole time? And he's.

Never. Of course, like, there are some people who are just, you know, jerks and selfish and whatnot. But, like, you know, the majority of us are just operating from a place of unrealistic expectations, lack of education. We're all just kind of trying to muck through it on our own. So I think so many women feel upset at their partners or resentful or they struggle to have honest conversations about it. But I think it's important to recognize, like, your partner may not mean to be, you know, coming off this way. Your partner may think that they're doing the right thing or, you know, doing a good thing for you. So I think it's just an opportunity in relationships for us to, like, come back onto the same page. Come back onto the same.

Page. Yeah. And I think it's a really good reminder for women that, let's say you had, you know, in your past relationship, you were orgasming consistently. It's a good reminder to be patient in a new relationship, because it is not. It's not always a simple matter of, oh, I did it once, or I did it in this last relationship, and now it's easy. It's a. There has to be communication about it. There has to be a little bit of work and maybe even a little kind of growing pains to kind of get settled in and, you know, teach your new partner how it works best for.

You?

Yeah. All right. So we got a little sidetracked there, but let's get back to, you know, what it's like for you.

Now. Well, I think one of the most exciting developments is that it feels like I can have, like, a lot of different kinds of sex now. Like, in the past, it was just the same performance over and over and over again. And now it feels like there can just be so much more variety, so many different flavors to it. In a similar way, like, I can bring so much more of myself into the bedroom. Like, I can bring different, you know, my full self. Like, I don't just have to be playing this very narrowly defined role. I feel authentic, I feel whole, which feels really great. And then the most exciting thing is that there have been impacts outside of the bedroom, too. Like, it's really increased my confidence. It's increased my sense of worthiness. I just feel like now I'm the kind of person who I know what I want. I know how to ask for what I want, advocate for what I want. I know that I deserve what I want. It's changed a lot. It's changed the way that I show up in the world. It's not just. Just who I am when my clothes are.

Off. Yeah, I can imagine that. You know, this is an area of life where it is really scary to ask for what you want and to advocate for what you want, given the way that we've been kind of set up societally and with messages in the media and movies. By figuring this out, it's like, hey, if I can do this here in this. Really scary. I've grown up feeling kind of ashamed of this part of my life. If I can do this here, why can't I do it elsewhere? Yeah, that's.

Cool. Sure is.

Buddy. So. So it was so cool, really, that you decided to build a business around it, which also real cool. But, yeah, like, how did you get to the point of, like, I figured this out and now I need to help other.

People. It was a pretty immediate thing for me of, like, ah, I figured it out. I need to teach other people. And I think recognizing, like, how alone I felt in my journey and the struggle that I had trying to find real resources and tips, I was like, I have got to figure out how I can teach this to other people. So I started off in my private practice, you know, working with women one on one and trying out different techniques and seeing, you know, because I recognize, like, I am one person, and what works for me is not going to work for every single other woman. And So I started really, like, testing and refining techniques with these women that I was working.

With. Did you give them.

Homework? Oh, yeah, lots of.

Homework. Vanessa loves.

Homework. I do love.

Home. I'm sure I. Most people hate homework, myself included. I'm sure Vanessa would be like, oh, I got so much homework today, I can't.

Wait. I always had to give this disclaimer with my clients of like, I love the word homework. I know you might hate it, but we can, we can come up with a different word. But basically just started really testing out all these different techniques and getting feedback of like, this worked, this didn't work. What if we tried it this way? Eventually, you know, over the series of a few years, developed this system that I was felt confident of. Like, okay, this is a replicable system of there are different elements of it that, you know, different women are going to respond to different parts of it. But, like, I've got a really clear system. And so that was the point where I created Finishing School, which is our online orgasm course. That was back in 2015 is when we launched it. There's still that same drive and motivation that was originally inspiring me, this idea of, like, why can't we talk about it? So. So it's helping women. Let's talk about orgasm more openly and more honestly. But let's not stop there. Let's also give really step by step practical techniques for how to do it so that you're not left feeling like, well, just don't think about it, drink a glass of wine. You just have to let it happen. That never helped me. So I really wanted to be able to share realistic and practical advice with.

Women. And now you've taught thousands and thousands and thousands of women via Finishing School how to orgasm, which I think is so incredible. Just because, you know, you. You started out, you know, seeing people one on one in a private practice in, you know, an office building in San Francisco. And like, if you had kept doing that, there's no way that you would have been able to see that many clients in this period of time. So I just think it's so awesome that you identified sort of that there was like a systematic aspect of this that was not out there in the world and that it could be packaged up into a course that can help 10 times more people than you could ever.

See.

Yeah. In a lifetime in a private.

Practice. You know, I'll be fully transparent. Like, obviously we make money off of Finishing School. Like, this is how we support ourselves. It's how we support our team. Like, this is A business for us. But this is also, like, extremely personal for me. Like, I've been through this. I understand how hard this is. I've cried so many tears over this. I get it. And that desire that I have inside to, like. Like, help other women not have to keep going through the pain that I went through, like, this is the greatest honor of my life to be able to do this kind of work. It's not just a business thing. Yeah. It's my life's purpose. It's the reason that I was put on this earth. And so I feel so honored to be able to do this. And, you know, every time I hear a new success story, I cry. I still cry to this day, like, recognizing that I can have this impact and that it all came from something that was so painful for me for so.

Long. Oh, you're gonna make me cry. So. All right, so let's. Let's lean in. Let's lean into those emotions. Like, what do you. What do you think the biggest things you've learned from offering finishing school.

Are? The first one was just recognizing that I wasn't alone. I felt so alone in this for so long and, like, so embarrassed and ashamed. Recognizing, like, just seeing that there have been thousands of women that have signed up for the course, like, it's still to this day, is like a. Like, okay, I wasn't alone in it. And, you know that. I think that's been one of the most powerful things that other women have said. Like, they. You know, a lot of people say, even just finding out that this course exists, like, makes me feel better, you know, even if they don't even end up signing up for it, it's just, like, just recognizing there are other women who struggle with their orgasm. Like, oh, my God, I'm not.

Alone. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, oftentimes, you know, when we. Every now and then, we kind of have these special live rounds of finishing school where we do a bunch of live coaching along with it, offer a bunch of fun stuff, and, like, you know, we've sort of, like, released videos about that, and I feel like every single time we do that, we put those videos out, we do a live, and we kind of cast the net wider than just our immediate email list or our Instagram following. I'm just always, like, surprised to see the number of people that are like, oh, my God, I thought I was the only person in the world that couldn't do this. You know, I've been having sex for 30 years, and, like, I never even considered the possibility That I might be able to figure it out and, like, you've given me hope again. Yeah, that's pretty.

Cool. It is pretty cool. Cool is the theme of this episode, isn't.

It? That's pretty cool. All right, so what else have you.

Learned? So I also learned that orgasm is not something that just happens. It's not a passive process. It's an active process. And that was. That was a myth that I was living under for so long of just kind of lying there, waiting for it to happen, hoping that one day it magically.

Would. Living under a big, heavy myth. I've never. Living under a.

Myth. That's not what I.

Said. Yeah, I don't know.

Living. Living under a rock, Operating under this.

Myth. Yeah, living. Living under my myth.

Rock. Sure, I was living under the myth rock. But, yeah, it was. It was very important for me to write, recognize that it's not something that just happens. It's something that you have to be active in. And I eventually came to realize, like, that is actually a super cool thing, that I don't just have to wait for a partner to make me orgasm. Like, I make myself orgasm. I learned how to get myself there. I taught my partner how to get there. Like, it was a very empowering experience for me. At the end of the day, even though I felt so nervous and scared about it going into.

It. Oh, there's some. There's some meta life lessons in.

That. Oh, for.

Sure. Don't wait around for someone else to bring you success or to bring you the thing that you want. Like, it is within you. You can get it. You can make it happen.

Yourself. And so, yeah, so in terms of, like, making it happen, when I really kind of narrowed down what my process was, I realized there are three main ways that we can tackle the orgasm issue. So one is the mental and emotional aspect of it. So a lot of us have blockages around. You know, we don't know the truth about how orgasm works. We feel afraid of what it's going to look like. We feel like we don't deserve pleasure. You know, there's so much emotion that this process can stir up. The second one is the technical aspect of it. So this was the thing that, like, you know, one of the things that I really struggled with is that I couldn't find any tips for, like, how do I actually do this? So there are technical tips about, like, how to masturbate. Exactly. Step by step, what to do, what kind of foreplay techniques to use with your partner. And by the way, we, of Course, don't like the word foreplay because it makes it sound like it's lesser than. But you know, the specific techniques to use on your own and with your partner. And then the third one are like partner dynamics. So those are things like, you know, allowing yourself to make requests in the bedroom to take up time. It's helping to educate your partner about how female orgasm really works and more importantly about like, how your body works. And then I think the coolest thing that I learned about my orgasm journey was that it ended up being about so much more than just orgasm. Like, it changed so many other aspects of my life. It's probably touched every aspect of my life in one way or another. These are the coolest stories that we hear about from women in finishing school. Sometimes we get these emails that are like, yeah, orgasms are cool and great, but like, here's what actually happened to me too. You learn so many lessons along the way. It becomes about you knowing yourself and going through the, this process of self discovery of you tuning into your body and feeling more like at home in your own skin, about learning that you are worthy of pleasure, of connection, of joy, like, of so much worthy of pleasure. You know, it's just, it becomes this huge journey of self discovery, of increasing your confidence, coming home to yourself. And so that's just been such an amazing gift for me of, you know, starting off at this place where I felt like, like I'm so broke and something's so wrong with me and recognizing like, you know, it wasn't just that I learned, oh, I'm not broken now I can have orgasms. It was like, oh my gosh, like I. I'm becoming a totally different woman than I was when I started.

This process that's really so amazing. And you know, being here on this journey with you, I have seen that in so many of the testimonials we get from women who have been in finishing school. Stuff where it's like, like, you know, hey, I finally asked for that raise at work because I'm just not scared anymore. Knowing the fears that I've overcome in the bedroom, like, that is way worse than anything else that I'm scared of, like, in the outside world. And, you know, like, I've had this career change. I finally have the relationship that I want. We're doing the things that I want to do. It's so awesome. I'm so proud to be a part of this with.

You. Oh, thanks. It's pretty cool, isn't.

It?

Yeah. All right, so that is my Story my journey with orgasm. And, you know, I'm sure that a lot of the people listening to this episode are women who are struggling with their own orgasm. So I really wanted to make sure that we didn't leave you hanging here, like, just telling you my story. So we have a really great starting point for you. So I mentioned a minute ago that there are these three main categories of blockages that prevent women from orgasming. They're the mental, emotional, the technical, and the relational. So we actually have a quiz. It's brand new. We just put it together for this episode. It'll help you identify what blockages are coming up for you, because I realize it might sound like it's kind of obvious, but it wasn't for me. It definitely wasn't. So we put together this quiz to help you really uncover which blockage it is and then also give you specific points of, like, what are your next steps from there? So we will put the link to the quiz in the show notes. Definitely check it out. It's really useful starting point for you and really want you to feel empowered and excited about starting this journey for yourself. That is the very first thing for you to do after you finish listening to this episode. And then we also had another little idea that we thought could be great as well. You know, we think that every woman should listen to this episode because there are so many of us out there that are suffering in silence. And even if you have girlfriends who are like, oh, yeah, I orgasm all the time, no problem, it does not mean that they are, I promise you, at least one of them is.

Not. Yeah, I mean, imagine how it would feel if you're, like, out to brunch with five of your girlfriends. Four of them are talking about, like, the amazing sex and the amazing orgasms they're having. The fifth one is sitting there thinking, man, I really want to fit in. I've talked about sex before. The reality is I'm not having great sex. I am not having orgasms. In fact, I don't know how to do it. How motivated do you think that she will be to just be like, hey, you know, actually, despite the fact that I've told you I'm having great sex and orgasms before, actually, I'm not like most people. It's just been years and years and years of just conditioning yourself to not lie is not the good word, but just to say that you have for convenience.

Sake. So what we would love for you to do is to share this episode with your girlfriends. And you don't have to say anything about it. You don't have to say, hey, by the way, I've never had an orgasm or anything like that. But it's such a gift that you can give to the women in your lives to help them get better information about orgasm, to open up these vulnerable and raw and honest conversations and that we can just all start talking about this more honestly. Because, yeah, I mean, I was definitely somebody who. Who faked for so long, who lied about this to a lot of my friends, and I would have loved for somebody to send me this episode when I was struggling. Like, it would have felt like such a weight off of my back to recognize, like, oh, my God, I'm not.

Alone. So that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. We really want to thank you so much for listening. We also want to thank you in advance for sharing this episode with your friends. Because we just, we know how powerful it is for people to just hear and be able to relate with different aspects of this because so many people go through.

This. And if you are, you know, hearing us talk about finishing school and feeling like, oh, my gosh, I'm a little excited, a little nervous, like, maybe this sounds like it could be a good fit for me. Just keep an eye out on our email list. If you're not already on it, go to vmtherapy.com or our Instagram account. We're at Vanessa Marin Therapy. Just keep a little eye out. There may or may not be something coming your way.

Soon. Yeah. Something very exciting. Until then, though, join us again next week when we talk about letting your partner love your.