Episode 111: What To Do When Your Partner Doesn’t Want To Talk About Sex

So the reason that we find it happening more with men than with women is because women are socialized to be more expressive with their emotions, to be able to communicate about their emotions more readily. And men are given so much societal conditioning that like, real men don't cry, real men don't feel feelings. Like, don't be a pussy. Like, you know, you're supposed to hold everything inside. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vaness and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to zocdoc for supporting Pillow Talks. Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them, and treat almost every condition under the sun. Go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app to sign up for free and book a top rated doctor. Thanks to AG1 for supporting Pillow Talks. If you want to take ownership of your health, try AG1 and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and 55 free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkag1.com pillow that's drinkag1.com pillow if you have been following us for a while, you know that one of our favorite techniques in this entire realm of sex and relationship is communication. We talk about communication all the time, and particularly about how communication is the key to an incredible sex life.

We can't stop talking about how important it is to talk about sex.

We can't stop talking about talking about.

Sex and about why you should be talking about it and why your partner should be talking about it with you and maybe even talking to your friends about it because they need encouragement to talk about it with their friends and partners too.

Oh my God, my brain is about to explode. So we even wrote a book all about this, a New York Times bestselling book, Sex the five Conversations that Will Transform youm Love Life.

Which by the way, you should absolutely pick up and read. If you haven't, you can go get it at Sex Talks Book. Com. It's an amazing book. We would be so honored if you Read it and shared it with your friends.

So today we're talking about a very specific and very important subset of this whole topic, which is what to do when your partner refuses to talk about sex. So you're on board. You're like, I got it. Xander, Vanessa, I'm with you. I want to talk about it. You're all excited. You try to talk to your partner and.

Mm, Yeah, I mean, because we're talking about talking to your partner about sex, we're not talking about talking at your partner about sex. I think there's an important distinction because the unfortunate reality. Fortunate or unfortunate, I'm not sure which. It takes two to tango. Like, conversation is a two way street. It's not a talking at someone.

Yeah. Talking with. So what do you do if your partner is just not on board with you? And so what we did for this episode is we are breaking it down into the most common reactions and response responses that we hear from partners who don't want to talk about sex. So everything from being just straight up stonewalling, like, no communication whatsoever.

The stone cold stonewall.

Yes. To getting defensive, to saying that sex shouldn't need to be talked about, we're covering all of it. And we are going to give you specific tips in each category for how to help break down these barriers and get the conversation started. And a lot of the tips that we're going to be sharing with you are actually taken from sex talk. So it's going to give you a little taste of what the book is like, get a feel for. If you should pick up your own copy, you definitely should, but we're gonna talk all about it. And we are also going to help you address your own discomfort because we will get to this in a second. You might be feeling a little bit more discomfort than you realize, and that's okay.

That's totally normal.

We're here for you.

It's. Yeah. Whether it's you, whether it's your partner or it's both of you, we gotcha. But before that, we also got you with our review of the week this week.

The transition. So smooth transition.

We got you. And we got a review of the week first. This week. It is. I just sent five different episodes to a friend.

Oh, love it.

Love it. I just spent an hour on the phone with a friend and lost track of how many times I said, you should really check out this podcast I've been listening to while dissecting the latest developments in her new relationship. Literally every issue she brought up, I was like, vanessa and Xander have an episode on this? Eventually, I said, I just sent her some links and promptly found five that directly applied to our conversation. At the end of the call, she said, I gave great advice, but honestly, 90% of it came from this podcast. Thank you for giving us all the tools to improve our relationships.

I love that.

Oh, that's so sweet.

I love hearing about the ripple effect that our work creates. Like, we feel so good just, you know, we're just sitting here in our office. We are thinking about you guys. Like, right before we started recording, we were like, okay, let's think about the person that we're trying to help with this episode. And, like, we're picturing, you know, you guys starting to have conversations. So.

And we also did a little dance, too. We pictured. We pictured. We pictured you. And then we said, you know what would be even better is if we pictured you.

That's a secret.

And dance together.

That's a secret. We're not picturing us dancing with them. We dance. That's just our. That's our private way of getting in the zone to record the podcast. But anyways, what I'm trying to say is it's really cool to hear, like, the ripple effect. So we're not just affecting you. Like, then you're turning around and sharing our advice, sharing the podcast with your loved ones. Like, and maybe they're gonna turn around and share it with their loved ones. Like, that's so freaking cool to think about the ripple effect that we're having. So thank you so much for this review and reviews. I mean, reviews are another ripple effect. You know, when people see your reviews, they're more likely to listen to the podcast. Spotify and Apple are more likely to deliver the podcast to people, like, as a recommendation. So we don't just read these reviews to make ourselves feel like it genuinely helps the podcast grow. So much so we really appreciate you taking the time. Like, if you've ever learned anything from one of our episodes, please leave us a review. It doesn't need to be long, but it really makes such a big impact. At least rate the podcast. That can be done in, like, two seconds.

Yeah. And also. And also, just take a look down at your phone or whatever you're listening to this podcast on right now. And if you're not following or subscribed to our podcast, they call it different things on different podcast platforms. Smash that button. That helps us out immensely too.

Yes, absolutely. So if you have not heard us talk about this before, we do a weekly giveaway to say thank you for taking the time to leave these reviews. So here's how it works. Go over to Apple Podcasts, the main Pillow talks page. Scroll to the bottom. You'll see a little area where you can leave a review. Once you leave a review every week going forward, you are entered into our giveaway. So if you hear your review read on the podcast, reach out to us@infomtherapy. Let us know the username that you left the review with, and you will get to choose one of four masterclasses, absolutely for free, as our little way of saying thank you. Okay, so let's get into the episode. As usual, we started off doing some research over on our Instagram community. We are at Vanessa and Xander. If you have never followed us there, definitely go check it out. So we put up a poll, and we wanted to know how many people are in this situation where they want to talk about sex, but their partner is resistant. So here's what we discovered. 29% of partners. So almost one out of every three partners are currently resistant to talking about sex. And an additional 23% of partners have been resistant to talking about sex in the past. So a lot of people reached out and they're like, yeah, my partner absolutely refused to in the past. But by following your account on Instagram, by, like, showing them stories, I eventually got them to, you know, to change. But that's. That's over 50%.

It's 52.

52. There we go. 52% of people who have either at one time or are currently resistant to talking about sex. But then when we were putting these polls up, Xander had the hunch to ask.

I had an inkling you had an idea.

You're like, let's ask if the person responding to the poll, like, if they themselves feels resistant. And I was like, no, babe. Like, this is all about the partner. The people who are following us, they're already on board. They want to talk about.

About it.

Like, we don't need to pull them.

Yeah, I was like, you know what? Like, yeah, probably you listening to this episode, you are more likely to be the one that feels comfortable, but your partner is. Is the problem. Right? But I was like, you know, I do think, like, a lot of people listen to our podcast and follow us on social because, you know, they are grappling with their. Their own issues around sex, and they're, you know, they're in the process of trying to overcome some shame or some hurdles or some blockages that they have. And, you know, I think a lot of people Listen for a while before deciding, okay, I'm gonna make some change. So I wanted to know, are you. You know, is the listener? Is. Is the follower? Are they themselves hesitant to talk about it? Because I think, you know, honestly, you know, it's one thing to be like, yeah, you should just talk about sex. The reality is we have to sell people on that. It's. If it were. It's just a simple thing of, oh, as soon as someone told me I needed to talk about sex, I was totally on board with it then. Like, everyone in the world would be talking about it at this point, but, you know, it's literally like, we have to sell you on it. So.

Okay. Yeah, so here's what we discovered. 47% said in the past they were resistant, but not now. So that was way higher, more than double than the 23% of partners who were resistant in the past. But I was.

Well, it's great to see because that means we're making some progress.

We're making a difference.

These are people who are following us and listening to the podcast who are like, yeah, I used to really struggle with this, and now I don't.

But 34% said yes currently compared to 29% of the partners.

Yeah, so.

So in both categories, yeah, the person themselves was more resistant than their partner, so we were like, interesting. Still a lot more work to do. But, yeah, that's why we were kind of saying in the beginning of the episode, you might actually have a little more resistance to this than you realize. So either way, we're proud of you for listening to this episode, and we're going to give you some tools.

Also, I do want to say because, like, I've. I've been here myself, I've been resistant to talking about it in the past. I think it can be really easy to kind of take our foot off the gas when we go, okay, yeah, I used to be really resistant. You know, I've had a couple successful conversations. I've totally changed. I got this. But the reality is, you know, when we are conditioned to think and act a certain way, we can break out of that. But it's very easy to slip back into it when something really stressful happens, when something triggering happens, when we haven't had to think about it or do it in a while. So, you know, if you're someone that answered in that category of, like, yeah, I struggled in the past, but not now, or my partner struggled in the past, but not now, like, this episode is still going to be super valuable and super interesting. For you? Because it can be a good way to kind of take account of like, how well are you really doing? Are some of these areas, do you pick up on these happening in your relationship? A little bit. You see signs of where, you know, it's easy to slip back into that dynamic. And I think, you know, this is one of those things where unfortunately we do have to keep it top of mind for the rest of our lives. It's so easy to fall back into those ways that, you know, we were kind of taught to act and think, you know, as a child or as a teenager or as a young adult.

So let's get started with why do we need to talk about sex?

Yeah, what's. Yeah, here's the sales pitch.

Why do we need to talk about it in the first place? And I think for most of us, the resistance comes from not seeing any examples of it. So pretty much all of us, we get our sex education from TV movies and porn. Right? Like, we get very little other education. And if you think about all those scenes that you've seen on TV movies and porn, you never see characters talking to each other about sex. So it leaves us with this idea of like, oh yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. It looks sexy and effortless and natural in the movies.

And who doesn't want those feelings? Who. She doesn't want it to just be immediately sexy, immediately effortless and immediately natural. Like that's totally normal. So it's like they've hooked you with that.

Yeah, but TV movies and porn are not meant to be realistic. They are meant to be entertainment. There's so much of everyday life that gets cut out of a scene because it's not entertaining. So I actually want to turn this around and say, why not? Why should we not talk about sex?

And you can't answer, well, that's because I, because I've never seen it in the movie.

Can you come up with a compelling, genuine reason why it would be better to not talk about sex? So let's flip the question around. It's not like why do we need to? It's like, why shouldn't we?

And if you're thinking about that and thinking, God, huh, I don't really have a good answer to that. Let me me, you know, further reinforce how important this is by asking you a follow up question, which is, what other aspect of your life, you know, where you need to do something with someone else would you expect to work with? Zero communication? So like anything in the working world, anything else in your Relationship, anything.

Parenting is a really great example.

Parenting anything with your family, your friends, like, anything that requires more than just you. What else works with no communication?

Nothing. Literally nothing. So why are we putting this pressure on sex to be different from anything else in our lives?

And, okay, and even if you think. Even if you're like, oh, well, like, sex is, like, instinctual, or. Or, you know, like this natural thing, like, okay, then we'll bring it back to eating, right? Like, you don't just, like, magically have food appear for your. For your partner and your whole family without any communication. Right? Like, you at least got to talk.

About, what are we having for dinner?

What are we having for dinner? Do we have the groceries? Have you been to the grocery store? Like, wait.

You can't compare it to that, though, because that's, like, people's least favorite question. We hate talking about what are we having for dinner? So it's more fun than that. In sex talks, the conversations are much more fun than what are we having for dinner.

I mean, I think you can get a lot more. You can get a lot more pleasure out of sex than you can cooking dinner, let's put it that way. So, yeah, you might not enjoy that dinner conversation, but I think you would agree that in order to have good food, you know, to have good food and have meals done, like, relatively efficiently, it actually requires a lot of communication. So in order to have good sex, it would follow that it might require a lot of good communication, too.

And finally, I think it's really important to recognize that talking about sex is intimacy in itself. So again, it's not going to be one of those conversations like, what are we having for dinner? I don't know. I asked you first kind of thing. Like, these kinds of conversations can build so much intimacy. There's vulnerability. There's, like, real connection in it. So it's not just a means to an end. It's something that can be valuable in and of itself.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people feel like. Who struggle to talk about sex also struggle feeling like there's that much intimacy in their relationship. And I think that another sort of accidental shortcut your brain can take is like, oh, well, talking about it would really not feel intimate. Sex is supposed to be this intimate thing, but then you want me to have a conversation about it, and that's just going to make it feel really not intimate. And we're trying to tell you actually talking about it is one of the most intimate things you can do it. Yeah, you know, it's a vulnerable conversation. It builds connection, it builds trust. It, you know, it can create some really great positive memories. You can have some really amazing sex afterward, creating even better positive memories. So, yes, it is an intimacy builder in and of itself, in addition to the more sex that you will have because of it.

All right, so let's start jumping into our categories. So we put a question box up on Instagram. We said, what is the specific reaction that you get from your partner when you try to talk about sex with them? And we're going to walk you through the main categories that came up. So, by far and away, the most common group of responses were dismissive or avoidant. So the partner will respond with something like, it's not important, or when you bring it up, it just makes it awkward. Or even just saying, like, I don't know.

Or maybe they just, like, tell you, you know, now's not the right time. And they keep saying that over and over. And then ultimately you're like, okay, yeah, but like, it's never the right time. So when is the right time?

So we talk about this category a lot in sex talks because, like I just said, it was the most common response that comes up. And one thing that I think can happen in this dynamic is that it's very easy to feel like. Like your partner just doesn't care. I mean, and obviously, if you're hearing things like, it's not important or like, I don't know, that makes it seem like it's very unimportant to your partner. Right. But what I've discovered as a sex therapist from working with so many couples around these kinds of issues is that that is most likely not true. Like, most likely what is going on is that your partner is really struggling to process the issue.

Yeah. And I think, you know, you can flip it around and think, have you ever been avoidant about something? I think being avoidant is a super common thing that we do as humans. If, you know, if whatever the issue is that's facing us, it's not a life or death decision. It's so easy to kick the can down the road to be avoidant about something. And I think, you know, if you can think for yourself, think about a time you were avoidant about something, maybe it was like a tricky conversation with a friend about something or like a sticky work situation, and it was kind like, oh, I'm just going to pretend this doesn't exist. Were you. Did you actually not care about it, or did you actually care so much you were so anxious about you know, the situation or what might happen, that it actually felt easier to push it off. So I think it. First of all, it can be important to just kind of flip it around that way and think, yeah, have you ever been. Yeah, I'm super avoidant of this because I just don't care at all. It was actually probably because you cared so much that you were avoiding. And I myself have been the avoidant partner in our relationship when it has come to talking about sex. There was, you know, after about, I don't know, a year or two into our relationship, we kind of hit a rough patch, and Vanessa was wanting to talk about it, and I was being super avoidant. And so this is, you know, from the book, some of the things that I, you know, described going on for me at that time. So, like, one of the things was I felt really behind when she brought up something that sounded serious or important about our sex life, because I would feel like, oh, well, like, she's obviously noticed this, but, like, I haven't thought about this yet. And so, like, what's wrong with me that she's bringing this up first? Like, am I a bad partner or something? I also would get embarrassed. Like, what would it say about me that she's bringing this up? Like, oh, God, like, I must be so boring if she's saying she wants more doggy style, but, like, I'm happy sticking with missionary or whatever positions that we're doing at the time. And I also definitely kind of had thoughts of, like, like, okay, like, if. If this is, like, a struggle that we're having and she's bringing it up, like, only one of us can be right. Like, either she gets what she wants or I get what I want, which is, I guess, like, staying the same and not changing. Even though I hadn't really even thought through whether that was what I actually wanted. Just that that was the status quo. And so in my mind, it would kind of be like, oh, well, I guess it's better for me to just kind of dig in my heels or try to avoid her request because. Because I don't know how to make the broader changes that would be necessary in order for us to make any progress on this.

Yeah. So the bottom line is that it's not necessarily that your partner just doesn't care at all, but that they just need some time and space to work through their emotions.

Yeah. Or they don't know how to do. You know, this reminds them of maybe bigger issues beyond just talking about sex. And it's like, I don't even know where to start with that.

So let's talk about what to do if this is your situation. We always love starting with trying to find some empathy for your partner. So I know it's so challenging in situations like these where you're like, just talk to me. All I want you to do is talk to me.

Yeah. I've been asking you to do this for years.

It's so frustrating. And it's very easy to just be annoyed by your partner, but, like, see if you can tap into some empathy and think about what emotions or feelings could be behind their reaction. So are they actually really scared? Are they actually confused? Are they actually sad? Like, what might be coming up for them?

Yeah. And especially thinking for yourself, are there any situations you've been in where you've been avoidant of something for a long time? Maybe even something silly of like, oh, I keep putting off, like making that doctor's appointment or whatever and just think about what is that like for you whenever something reminds you of, you know, oh, maybe I should make that doctor's appointment. And what do you feel like it can be so valuable to just think about that and try to kind of apply that to your partner. That could be going on for them too.

Okay. On a more practical level, one of the best things that you can do is share with your partner the positive reasons for wanting to talk about sex. So your partner might be going to this place, and I know this definitely happened for Xander in our relationship. Like, your partner might be going to this place of thinking like, oh, they want to talk about sex because all these things are wrong and they have all these complaints and it's my fault. And so they're shutting down, like, as a self protective mechanism. So we really believe that talking about sex should be a positive and intimacy building experience, even when there are challenging dynamics that you need to talk about. But I think if you start the conversation, you know, telling your partner, like, there are good reasons why you're wanting to talk about this. So it could sound something like, I know this might feel a little bit uncomfortable for us to talk about. I'm there with you. Like, I'm not super comfortable with this either, but you and our relationship are important to me. Or, you know, I want us to feel closer and more connected. I want us to be able to prioritize our love and our relationship. So you're making it not feel like a scary thing to your partner.

That can also kind of short circuit some of the, like, storytelling that might be going on in your Partner's brain of, oh, they must want to talk about it because of this thing or that thing or this thing I'm doing wrong. So just hearing the, oh, I want to talk about it because of this.

Yeah.

Can. Can preempt the sort of inference or reading into things that they might be doing in their head.

Another thing you can do, I sort of hinted at it a second ago, but is to share the challenges that talking about sex brings up for you too. Like, you are likely dealing with your own shame or embarrassment or discomfort. So share that with your partner.

Yeah. Because it can be so easy. This is kind of going back to the last one of like the. How easy it is to kind of go into this inference mode. It can be so easy as the partner on the receiving end of the request to talk about sex, to be like, oh, well, like, it's so easy for them. Like, they want to do this thing that feels really hard for me because they're good at it, because they feel perfectly comfortable with it and I'm the problem. And it can be so helpful because the reality is, in any situation, if you're suggesting doing something, it's likely not because you're perfect at it or you're a genius at it, you're incredible at it. Like, you might be. Be just as bad at something as your partner or maybe even worse at something less comfortable with something.

Well, let's not say bad at it.

Yeah, that is. That's not the right word. But like, you may be less experienced with something. It doesn't. You know, just because you suggest something doesn't mean that you're going to be perfect at it. And it can be so helpful to just share that with your partner. Share your own insecurities too.

Another very practical thing you can do is give your partner more time to respond instead of putting them on the the spot. So if you approach your partner and you're like, tell me what you want more of in the bedroom, like, that is really putting them on the spot. You've had the time to decide, like, what am I going to say? When do I approach my partner? How am I going to phrase it? But your partner is like, they're in the moment having to come up with something. So instead you can say something like this, like, I'm curious to talk about. Fill in the blank tomorrow. Can you let me know what you think about this tomorrow? So you're just giving them, you know, naturally building insights, some space for them to respond.

You know, I just thought of this. You could even kind of work in the last tip, too, which is like sharing some of the challenges yourself. Because the reality is, yeah, like Vanessa said, you've probably been thinking about this for a while. Maybe you've been thinking about it all day. How am I going to bring this up? What am I going to say? When am I going to say it? And then you bring it up to them, and, you know, you're expecting a response immediately, or your partner is thinking that you are expecting that them to immediately respond. You've had the benefit of thinking all day or maybe even all week about how are you going to do this? And so it's nice to be able to give your partner that same benefit, too, to kind of work up, you know, let them think about it, work up the courage to do it. And so it could even be like, hey, I've been, you know, I've been feeling a little nervous to bring this up. I've been thinking about this all day in terms of how I'm going to say it. And so, you know, I want to make sure that you have, you know, the same amount of time that I did to, you know, to work up the courage to this. So, like, I would love to talk about this tomorrow so you have some time to think about it. That's a great way to share with them, like, oh, this isn't just, like a thing that came out of nowhere. It's. I've actually been working up the courage to this too, because, like, I'm not super comfortable. I'm not super experienced with this either. And so let's come back to it at this date and time and discuss.

All right, our next category is stonewalling. So this is a more extreme version of what we just talked about. So this is when you're just not getting anything back from your partner.

And this was the second most common answer that we got when we. When we polled people or asked them to describe what was going on with their partner.

Yeah, so one person said, my partner goes into complete shutdown. They just look at me and don't say a word. Somebody else said, the partner responds like, I don't want to talk about it.

Or they'll just, like, not answer at all, pretend they didn't hear what you said or just, like, change the subject, like, without any acknowledgment that you are asking for something.

So we talk about stonewalling a lot in the psychotherapy field, and my experience is that men tend to do this a lot more than women. And it actually boils down to something that we call emotional flooding. It's when you're just experiencing really intense emotions, and it can have a paralyzing effect. Effect on our bodies. So the reason that we find it happening more with men than with women is because women are socialized to be more expressive with their emotions, to be able to communicate about their emotions more readily. And men are given so much societal conditioning that, like, real men don't cry, Real men don't feel feelings. Like, don't be a pussy. Like, you know, you're supposed to hold everything inside. So what can happen when somebody is experiencing emotional flooding is it literally has this paralyzing effect on the body. Body hearing actually shuts down. You can dissociate from your physical body, and you are just incapable of responding when you're that distressed. So it may not be that your partner is just choosing to be this jerk and just stand there staring at you, but that they're actually so flooded with emotions and so unsure of how to grapple with their emotions that they physically cannot do anything other than that. So here's what to do. If this is your situation at a totally separate time. Like, you have not been trying to talk about sex, you're not having any sort of conflict or anything like that. Like, ask your partner, what is it like for them when you try to talk about sex. So this is, like, very specific. You're not trying to talk about sex. You're talking about, what is it like when I try to initiate these conversations with you?

Yeah, so, like, just try to have this conversation. Don't try to let this pivot into the conversation about sex.

You're talking about talking, but you're not actually talking, if that makes sense.

But you are talking. You're using your words. You're hoping your partner uses their words too.

Okay, you may need to be a bit firmer with your partner that this is a clear need for you. And again, this is at a separate time. Like, you cannot try to reason with your partner when they're flooding. When they're being flooded. So you might need to say something to your partner, like, this is really important to me, and I need us to be able to talk about this. But you can add a sentence like this, like, I'm happy to work as a team to figure out a more comfortable way for us to talk about it. So you're not just saying, like, you need to do this, fix yourself, and come back to me. It's like, hey, we're a team. I can support you here. We can work on this. We can take time, we can build up to it. But I need us to feel like we are both doing this together. We also do have a podcast episode if your partner is male and they're the one doing the stonewalling. We have a podcast episode specifically about how men can gain more emotional intelligence. So that's a great one to listen to.

And if you're dealing with sort of ongoing or long term stonewalling in your relationship, you know, when it comes to working together as a team, to finding a. To find a more comfortable way to do it, like, you may actually need to bring in a third teammate, which would be a couple's therapist. So the couples therapist can be the one kind of playing the role of coaching your partner through either what's going on for them when you're having that conversation or actually even kind of coaching them through you guys having an initial conversation, talking about sex. Because. Because a therapist is going to be very well trained in how to handle emotional flooding or stonewalling in the moment and be able to ask questions that you might not be able to think of in the moment to help kind of elicit a response in a safe and contained way. All right, before we go any further, we want to tell you a little bit more about zocdoc. Have you ever had this experience? I know I have. Multiple times. I think each time we have moved. I'm looking for a new doctor and I'm always like, okay, this time I'm going to find a better document. I'm going to find a doctor that gets me more that I like better. And I'm asking for recommendations. I'm searching all over the Internet. Most of your friends, like, they don't even recommend their doctors. You're like, okay, that's not going to work. It's so hard to find someone you maybe even if you're lucky, you find someone, you call them up, they don't have any appointments, they don't take your insurance. You're back to square one. This has happened to me so many times, which is why ZocDoc is such an incredible resource.

It's a free app where you can find amazing doctors and book appointments online line. We're talking about booking appointments with thousands of top rated patient reviewed doctors and specialists. You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance, are located near you and treat almost any condition you are searching for. All these reviews are from actual verified patients. They are not bots. The average wait time to see a doctor booked on Zocdoc is between 24 and 48 hours. You can often even find same day appointments. And once you find the doctor you want, you can book them immediately. Just a few taps. You do not have to call anybody on the phone. It is so easy and simple to use. So the next time we are on the hunt for a doctor we are definitely going to use Zocdoc. And you can go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's z o c-o c.com pillow zocdoc.com pillow pillow let's tell you a little bit more about AG1. So when they reach out to ask us about being a podcast sponsor, they sent over a full supply of it so that we could give it a try. We both started taking it in the morning like first thing when we get up and it just makes us feel like we're starting our day on the right foot, like making a healthy choice for ourselves first thing in the morning, doing something to really support our body. So we have been enjoying it and I just want to come out and acknowledge something. I know that you are seeing a lot of people recommend AG1 and sometimes when we see a lot of people talking about something, it can like bring up this natural suspicion of like is it really that good? Like what's going on here? But to tie this in with something else we are going to talk to you about in this episode, my friend Liz Moody started talking about AG1. She is a journalist who really focuses on the health and wellness space. She really does deep dives into the research. She talks to all these of the leading industry experts and she did a deep dive into AG1 and it helped me realize like there actually is a lot of incredible research and science behind this product. So that this was like months and months and months ago and I was like, okay, cool. I get just gives you a great bang for your buck because it replaces so many other supplements that you might take, like a daily multivitamin, minerals, pre and probiotics for gut health, adaptogens, a greens bacteria blend. You get all of these things in one scoop. And I think like that convenience is so important when it comes to health. Like there are a million and one things that we could be doing to take care of ourselves and to take care of our bodies. And sometimes it's easy to get overwhelmed by all the different options and just not do anything. Like who has the time to really sit down and like think of all these different things that you should be taking. So if you are somebody who tends to get overwhelmed or like, like just wants a simple, easy step, something straightforward that you can do to know that you're really taking care of your body. Like, AG1 is a great thing to look into.

And at least for me, this comes up a lot where it's like, hey, I, I prefer to eat healthy. I think of myself as a healthy person. But the reality is throughout the week, who knows what's gonna happen? Sometimes I go out for dinner with friends or someone. I go over to someone's house and get, you know, a meal that doesn't feel particularly nutritious. I just like knowing, like, I've taken my AG1 in the morning. Like I can have, you know, I can have a meal that's just like a lot of carbs or whatever it is and not a lot of vegetables. And I'm like, that's fine, that's fine. I took my AG1 all day.

You covered your, your bases. And they also give you these really nifty little travel packs. So when you're traveling, like, who wants a haul? All these supplements and bag of green powder, like just bring these little packets with you. We've been doing that while we travel and it's been so convenient. So if you want to take ownership of your health, try AG1 and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs. With your first purchase, go to drinkag1.com pillow that's drinkag1.com pillow. Check it out. We want to take a quick break from our podcast to tell you a little bit about another podcast that we think you will love. And that is our friend Liz Moody's Healthier Together podcast. If you've ever wanted to the Secrets to Longevity, Hormone Balancing Tips, Gut Health Hacks, how to be happier at work, make friends as an adult, Take control of your finances and more. You can find it all at Liz Moody's Healthier Together podcast. It's all about learning these actionable tips that you can implement to start transforming your life today and breaking down what's true and what's not true in the confusing world of health and wellness. I recommend starting with our episode called how to Create youe Dream Sex Life, have More orgasms, Give amazing oral and more. That was from February of 2023. We shared all of our best communication tips after we recorded that episode. We had so much fun with Liz. We like genuinely became friends in real life. Like from this podcast interview, we Love Liz so much. Her podcast is one of the few podcasts that I personally listen to, like, every week. I really think you're gonna love it. Love it. Like, Pillow Talks, Healthier Together is all about getting the most out of life and feeling empowered with the tools to do just that. So search for Healthier Together on your favorite podcast app and hit that follow button again. That is Healthier Together. To start living your best life today. Our next category is defensiveness. So you try to initiate a conversation with your partner, and they take it as a criticism instead of a conversation.

So they might say something like, God, stop putting so much pressure on me. Or, like, why are you bringing this up right now?

Or they might even try to turn it around on you and, like, come at you with a criticism of something you're doing wrong.

Yeah, well, like, you're not very good at this either.

Yeah, exactly.

Or, like, actually, I'm better than you. You didn't. You did this and that. You didn't say yes yesterday, and blah, blah, blah.

So the best way to stop defensiveness in its track tracks is to validate it. Oh, and this is so hard, I want to acknowledge, because when your partner is being defensive, like, that's just going to trigger your defensiveness, right? Like, it's very hard to have empathy and compassion towards your partner when they're being defensive.

You're like, oh, this defensive game, I can play this too.

Exactly. And then you're both, like, you know, you're both in it, just fighting against each other.

Other.

But if you really want to stop the defensiveness and just pull everything down a notch, you've got to validate it. And what you want to do is let your partner know that you genuinely do care about their experience. So even if their experience is wildly different from yours, even if you have no idea how they got to that place, like, I'm just trying to tell you some sexy ways that I would like you to initiate. Like, why did you react like this? It doesn't make any sense to me. Like, even if it doesn't make sense to you, you still want to validate it. So don't argue with them. Don't jump into sharing your perspective, which it is just as valid and just as real as their perspective, to be clear. But in order to stop defensiveness from, like, turning into this big fight, just start with validating your partner. So let's go back to that example of, like, a partner that says, stop putting so much pressure on me. So you could say something like, I'm so Bummed that this is feeling like pressure to you? That is definitely not my intent, but I know that sometimes the impacts of our actions are different from the intent.

Yeah. Or it's like, you know, hey, I'm bummed that this is feeling like a lot of pressure. And I get how it could feel that way for you.

Yeah. Just validating them. And it's really important to recognize, like, one of our favorite things that we like to say about relationships is two things can be true at the same time. So your partner's experience is real and true simply because that's their experience. Your experience is real and true simply because it's your experience. So you're not validating your partner and like, oh, okay, I guess I'm wrong and I just want to validate my partner. Like, this is not a people pleasing type of thing. This is being able to hold both of you are true and right in that moment.

Yeah. I mean, because like, the, the defensive comments, stop putting so much pressure on me is meant. It's meant to trick you into making this binary decision of either, oh, I'm right, it's not, it's not any pressure at all and you're wrong, or like, you're right, I did put too much pressure on you, and therefore I shouldn't do that and we shouldn't talk about this. And the reality is they are feeling like it's a lot of pressure to talk about that you are not intending to be putting pressure on them. You have some really positive intentions for wanting to talk about that. And both of those things are completely true.

Okay, so let's talk about how to approach conversations in a way that can. Can cut off defensiveness before it even starts. So the best thing that you can do is to make sure you're approaching the conversation in a positive way, because positive requests are far less likely to trigger defensiveness than complaints or criticisms. So in sex talks, we talk about this in a lot of detail. That the major mistake that people make when trying to talk about sex with their partner is because we're so uncomfortable with it. We wait until we have the conversation until there's something that's really bothering us, and then we come in hot and heavy with like, you never initiate sex. Why do you never want to have it? Why don't you ever want to try anything new in the bedroom? And like, of course something like that is going to trigger defensiveness in your partner. Right. So instead, we need to learn how to open up these conversations in positive ways and frame our requests as positive Requests instead of negative ones.

So here are a couple clues for if the thing you are about to say is going to start with these words, words, maybe it's a sign that you should think about rephrasing it. So if you are going to say you never, why don't you ever. Or I don't like something that is a really great clue that that is going to be a negative request. And it's really going to trigger defense in this, especially the ones like with never or you don't ever. Because all that does is it cues the person to think about. About one example, the one example they need to give to refute your entire argument. Because if Vanessa tells me I never take out the trash, if I've taken out the trash one time in our relationship, she's wrong and I'm right. Or at least, you know, in my mind as a defensive person, I'm right and she's wrong. And so you're actually inadvertently just shutting the conversation down by, by using phrases like that. Because it's so hard for someone hearing that to not go into that defensive state. Now, in addition to that, I also want you to be really careful with any requests that start with. With this kind of thing. Because a lot of people think, okay, cool, like, I get it. I'm not going to say this like, you never do this. But then they'll say something like, oh, like, you. Or we. Like we. We need to. Or we should, you know, we should have sex more. Or we should initiate more. Yeah, you should initiate more. Oh, oh, you know, something like that. And those I think you should be careful with. I just said you should. You should be careful with that because it, it can be perceived as someone, especially if they are more inclined to react defensive. Defensively. It can be perceived as sort of a challenge or a call out. And so what they might hear is, I'm doing this wrong. I'm doing this wrong. I haven't been doing this right for a long time. Like, I'm being put on the spot. I'm being called out for something that, that I've done wrong, and that's especially going to happen. They've had experiences like that in the past, not with sex, but just like, you know, as, as a child or a teenager being called out for something. It can be very easy for something like this to trigger that defensiveness. And they might not even be aware of what's going on. But you just, like, go back into that kind of mindset and you're like, already just not set up to have A good conversation.

Another thing that you can do to minimize defensiveness is to make sure that you're talking about something sex as a team sport. So you want to talk about things that you also want to try or change or work on so it doesn't feel one sided. So if your partner feels like you're approaching them, like you need to do this and this and this and this and you're not taking any responsibility or ownership for anything that you're going to do, like, of course your partner is going to feel defensive, like, why is this all on me? So if you're talking about it as like, you know, this is something that I would like for us and here's what I'm wanting to do and like, you know, action that I'm going to take, like that's going to make it feel more like you're a team. Our next category of responses is something that we're calling the deflector. So it's very similar to defensiveness because it's like trying to turn things around on you. But you might hear responses like, it doesn't bother me, you're the one with the issue.

Or like, I'm fine with things the way they are.

Or even a more extreme version that we heard from some people is like, well, I'm not sex obsessed like you. So the basic idea behind the deflector is that they're saying like, I'm fine, I'm happy, you're the one who has the problem. So because this one is so similar to defensiveness, a lot of our tips are going to be the same. You know, approaching it as a team, making positive requests, that type of thing. But we wanted to put this one in its own category because we did have another tip for it. You want to talk to your partner about the teamwork aspect of relationships. Like the bottom line is that we get into relationships to be teams. Like, otherwise spend your life by yourself. Like if you like being on your own and just doing everything by yourself, like be a single person, but like.

You want to do everything your way, there's a very easy way to do that. Do it your way, but don't get anyone else involved.

But we, yeah, we become partnerships because we want to have a partner, we want to be doing life with somebody else else. So, you know, if something is an issue for one person on a team, it's an issue for both people. So that doesn't mean that your partner needs to care about the exact same things in the exact same ways that you do, but simply that Your partner needs to value your desires and your needs and your requests so that they need to be willing to say, like, okay, like, if this is something that's bothering you, something that you want to change, like, I'm going to be your teammate in that.

Yeah. And you can even. You can even try to think about or call out examples of things that maybe your partner wanted in the past that you didn't care about that much, but you wanted to support them because you're a partner. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of things, like, unless you do every single thing together exactly the same way, there's going to be examples of this, maybe an activity that they like to do that you just don't care about out at all, but you support them in doing that because you know it's important to them. So just having a couple examples that you can call, not in a defensive way, like, oh, like, it's so messed up that you're saying this because I do all these things for you, but just like, hey, you know, like, you know, just. It's kind of selling them on, like, why teamwork is important and supporting each other. And here are some ways that, you know, I support you in things, and here are ways I would love for you to support me and things. And one of those is having these types of conversations.

And that is a very, very important clarification here, too. So the idea behind this teamwork thing, like, we're talking specifically about the communication around sex. We are not talking about the specific sexual acts. So in other words, like, you can't say to your partner, like, well, I want more sex, and because we're a team, you have to give me more sex. Like, your partner is still their own person. They get to decide what they want to do with their body. So, like, this cannot be used to manipulate your partner into, like, more sex or trying specific things. This is solely about the communication. So, like, I just want us to be able to talk about it. We're teammates. And if there's something that's coming up for me that I would like to discuss, like, we should be able to discuss it. So just about the communication, not specifically about the sex.

Yeah. And also, like, you know, I think it could be. I don't want it to be used in a way of, like. Like trying to compel one partner to have more sex. Because I feel like a situation that could very often come up is like, you know, one partner. It's like, hey, I, you know, I would love for us to talk about Sex. And the other partner's like, oh, well, like, you say no every time I initiate. So, like, why should we even talk about it? Kind of has this implication of like, oh, well, like, I don't want to talk about it with you because we don't have as much as I want to be having or something. So it's sort of like turning it around on them. Well, like, yeah, why would we do that? That. Because you never even want to do it. So, you know, it's, it's like talking about, hey, it's important that we are able to talk about these things so that we can figure out how to get better at it together.

And that's where I think we also loop back around to the point that we made at the beginning of this episode about, like, communication is the intimacy. So you're never going to find a partner who wants the exact same kind of sex that you do every single time you want it. Like, like, there are always going to be ways that you feel kind of mismatched. But as long as you guys are able to talk about it, like, that creates intimacy and closeness and helps each other know. Like, yeah, I care about you. This is important to me. Maybe I don't want exactly the same thing, but like, I value and respect you and your needs. Like, truly, if you guys are communicating about what's going on, you can overcome so many seeming incompatibilities in your relationship. So making that clarification to your partner too is like, I'm not talking about the specific acts. I'm just talking about us being able to talk about this openly. Okay, now let's talk about what to do if you try to talk about sex with your partner and they think that sex just should not be talked about. So it's a fundamental belief that sex should not be discussed. Shouldn't need to be something that you guys talk about.

Yeah, so this most commonly comes up with someone just saying sex should just happen naturally. We don't, we shouldn't need to talk about it. I'm not going to talk about it. It's just supposed to happen.

Okay, so here are our tips for what to do in this situation. First and foremost, you can just blame us. We love coming up with a good, like, blame us technique. So you can say to your partner something like, well, actually this sex therapist and her husband wrote a book about talking about sex and it became a New York Times best selling book. So.

So it must be important.

Actually, yeah, I think it is something that's very important. There's also an opportunity here to connect over shitty socialization that you've both received. So if your partner says something like, oh, we shouldn't have to talk about that. Connect with them in that, you can say something like, you know, I thought that for the longest time too. Like, and you can even say, like, yeah, in movies, you never see characters talking about it. Or maybe you guys are both like, purity culture survivors and you got specific messages saying, you know, sex is shameful and it's something that you shouldn't talk about. Like, you can share that with your partner. Like, yeah, I know we have this shared history around this. Or, like, that's something that I used to believe as well. But, you know, I am coming to believe something different and share with them those positive reasons for talking about sex that we mentioned at the top of the episode. So you're kind of getting their buy in on this idea of talking about sex.

Yeah. Give them the sales pitch, too.

Next up, we have what we are calling the woe is me response. So this happens when you bring something up to your partner and they just immediately start, like, lashing out at themselves about it. So they might say something like, oh, I know, I'm such a terrible partner. Why would you ever want to be with me? I'm no good. I don't fulfill any of your needs. You should find a different partner. And so what happens in you is, like, you start to feel guilty. You see your partner beating themselves up. You feel bad, and you're like, I.

Didn'T intend for any of this to happen.

And so you might leap to, like, no, no, no, you're wonderful. I love you. Like, forget about what I said. I'm so sorry I brought it up. I didn't mean it. I don't need that from you. Like, everything's fine as it is. So you kind of. You, like, backtrack to protect your partner.

Yeah. It's like you change course to actually end up giving, like, building them back up and giving them all. All these compliments, which may actually kind of be in conflict with the thing that you are trying to bring up.

Yeah. So this one is very tricky because it seems like your partner, like, oh, no, my poor partner. This is so sad. But actually what they're doing. And sometimes this is conscious and sometimes it's subconscious.

I think it's very often subconscious until you start to kind of dig into the dynamic and be aware of, like, oh, this is something that I tend to do. And then at that point, it's kind of of like, okay, maybe you're still using this and you know about it, even though it's not very good for us.

Yeah. Like, the bottom line is that this behavior is manipulative. So it's important for you to stand your ground and, like, not back down from wanting to have this conversation. So say to your partner something like, I don't think you're a horrible person, and I feel really sad that you're going to that place within yourself. But again, you're, like, still staying firm of like, I want to have this conversation. I want to. To you talk. Talk about this thing. Another thing that you can say to your partner is like, I'm making this request of you without making a judgment of you. Like, this is, you know, this is not me attacking you or judging you or criticizing you. Again, this is like, a lot of the tips that we've shared in different categories apply to, like, all the categories. Like, this is why you start the conversations positively while you phrase it as requests instead of criticisms.

Yeah. And I think in this one, you know, being able to. If, you know, if you're able to stand your question ground and say one of these lines, then you could close things out on a. You know, this is still something that's really important to me. And, you know, I want to give you some time to process and think about this. You're obviously not in, you know, you're not feeling great about yourself right now. So, like, you know, let's come back to this tomorrow at this time. And so that can give some time for, you know, for them to diffuse themselves a bit. I think the other thing I want to say about this is, like, I want to acknowledge if. If this is a dynamic that comes up in your relationship a lot. I know it can be really challenging to get out of this because you feel like, you know, you feel like it's your job to, like, build your partner back up when they kind of spiral downhill. Especially if you have people pleasing tendencies, it can really feel like that's what you're supposed to do. Like, that's, that's how you think. That's your way of having that intimacy or, you know, help, you know, feeling like, oh, we're being vulnerable together and I'm telling my partner all these positive, positive things. But I think you have to understand how it's. It's not actually helpful.

Yeah.

In the relationship because, you know, you're not able to get what you need out of things and you're actually ending up. You're being manipulated into giving them compliments, which you know, telling them that they're actually doing a great job at things that maybe they're, you know, not doing the greatest job at currently. And so it kind of hamstrings you later on from being able to, to, you know, to be able to, you know, ask both of you to work on certain things because you've already told them, oh, no, you're doing great at that. You don't need to worry about it.

All right, and our final category of responses, we wanted to include something about trauma. So your partner, you know, you're trying to have the conversation, but your partner shuts down and it's a response to past sexual trauma that they have experienced. So, so trauma is obviously a really complex category. We cannot do it justice like in a podcast episode. But we did want to point out our free guide, a survivor's guide to reclaiming your sex life after abuse. We have that@vmtherapy.com Survivor It's a course. It's not meant to be a replacement for therapy. We wholeheartedly recommend that anybody who has experienced sexual trauma should, should get psychotherapy, should have a container for processing those experiences. And we created this course to give practical strategies for making sex feel safe and pleasurable again. So that is a great starting point. If your partner has experienced sexual trauma. There's also a component of the course that's specifically for partners of people who have experienced trauma. So you may find it really helpful yourself to check that out. All right, well, that wraps up our main categories around responses of why your partner does not want to talk about sex. If there are any that we missed, any that you would like to see us dig into a little bit deeper, you can come DM us on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Zander. And if you're interested in checking out our New York Times best selling book Sex talks, you can find that atsex.

Talks book.com including getting the audiobook, which is a great option because I think I know you're listening to this podcast. You like hearing our voices? We read the audiobook ourself. So it's. You would want to go to sextalks book.com click we have a link to Amazon to go purchase and you can purchase the audiobook from them or the.

Hardcover or the ebook version as well. Those are all linked to atsex talks book.com and if you come back to that page after you have bought Sex Talks, just fill in a very short, short form on that page and we will send you a free 69 page workbook. That helps you go even deeper. But, yeah, a lot of what we've talked about in this episode is covered in even more detail in the book. And, of course, we also get into those five crucial conversations that we think every couple should have. So check it out.

All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. And join us again next week when we talk about complements.