Episode 119: Jealousy In Relationships: Why Do We Get Jealous, And What Do We Do About It?

Yeah, of course other people are attracted to my partner. They're hot, they're funny, they're a catch, they're exciting and, like, I'm so lucky that I get to be with them. And I'm so. I get to give myself a little confidence boost that this attractive, funny, like, likable person has also chosen me. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

Just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Greenchef for their continuing support of Pillow Talks. Eat clean the easy way with recipes that help support your wellness goals without skimping on flavor. Go to greenchef.com 60pillow and use code 60pillow to get 60% off plus free shipping. We'd like to thank Cozy Earth for supporting our podcast. Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for our Pillow Talks listeners today. Get up to 35% off site wide when you use the code Pillow talks@cozyearth.com. Wait, are we recording?

Yeah. I don't know any other words.

I'm sitting here thinking, like, how we're gonna start this episode off. I forgot that we were recording, and so I'm, like, looking for jealousy songs. There's, like, an Olivia Rodrigo song. And I was like, there's no way in hell Xander's gonna know Anything by Olivia Rodrigo. So I had literally just abandoned the idea. I was like, okay, we're just gonna do a straightforward intro. Santa starts singing Gin Blossoms, Gin Blossoms. Classic song. Do you know any other words to that song? Other than.

No, just. Hey, jealousy. Hey, jealousy.

Of another lyric.

Can you.

Yes.

All right, let's go. Why? How come you never sing?

Because it's so much funnier when you do.

I'm jealous that I'm the only person that gets to sing.

What if I just had, like, a killer voice? I don't, but what if I just was, like, really good at singing and I just chose not to sing, not to bless our audience with my beautiful voice? I just make them listen to your croaking.

Well, no, honestly, I'm feeling jealous that you never have to sing, and I'm always the one that has to sing and make A fool of myself. So I think you should.

I think that's just our shtick, baby.

You should just tell what is. What are more lyrics? She doesn't know them either. Wow. No. She threw me under the bus. All right, let's go. You gotta prove it now.

Talking about driving around this town. Let the cops chase us around. Something's gonna.

Oh, yeah. Let the cops chase us.

Yeah, There you go. I just got stage fright for a second. I know the whole lyrics. Okay, Obviously today we are talking about jealousy. So we turned to Instagram and we asked our community, what are the most common situations that stir up jealousy for you? So we are going to be talking about some of the most common jealousy themes this week, sharing our take about jealousy. And we have a lot of specific scenarios where people wanted to know, like, is it okay for me to feel jealous in this scenario? Does this make sense? Am I allowed to feel this? We're going to walk you through our.

Thoughts, but first I'm going to walk you through our review of the week. This podcast really helped me realize that I am not alone. This podcast is amazing. I was having struggles with my marriage and didn't know what to do or if it was me because I thought what was happening wasn't normal. I reached out to the Lady Gang podcast group and some of them recommended this podcast. Let me tell you, I ugly cried at the bristle episode because that was me and I was so happy that that what was happening had a name and I wasn't alone. Not only that, but I did what was suggested and listened to the podcast without headphones when my husband was home. I didn't know how to start the conversation and this helped. This podcast really helped me not feel alone and gave great tips on how to start the conversations needed with your partner.

Oh, my God, I love this review. There's, like, tips within the review. So listening to this podcast without headphones on is such a pro move. Like, it's just such a subtle way. If there's something that you want your partner to know or conversation, conversation you want to have, but you are struggling to have it. Like, put the podcast on. Your partner will hear it and be like, oh, wait, what did they say? Especially the ones that are about sex. Like, obviously it's going to catch your partner's ear and they're going to feel engaged. I love that tip. And I also love that you got this recommendation from the Lady Gang podcast group. And that reminds me, like, that is another way to support the podcast. So the whole reason we do this review of the week giveaway every single week is because reviews do go such a long way in helping the podcast. The more reviews a podcast has, the more likely, like, Spotify and Apple are to display that podcast and, like, recommend it to other people. So if you've ever gotten a great tip from a podcast episode, if we've ever made you smile or laugh, like, we'd be so appreciative of your support, we do this for free. It's such a labor of love, and we really need your support to help it continue to grow. So go over to the main Pillow Talks page in Apple, scroll down to the bottom, and you'll find the place to leave the review. If you hear your review, read in an episode out to us@infovmtherapy.com and we will let you pick one of our master classes to get absolutely for free as our way of saying thank you for supporting the podcast. And if you want to go above and beyond, if you're in other podcast groups, like the Lady Gang podcast group that this person recommended, like, we would love if you would recommend our episode to people who are in need asking questions about episodes that we have, that kind of stuff. And also, we've never been guests on the Lady Gang podcast, and I would love to be a guest on their podcast. So if you're a listener, send them a DM or post in that podcast group, recommend us. You know, that goes a long way. When podcast hosts hear from their community, like, oh, we want you to interview this person. They are so much more likely to respond than when we send, like, we send out a lot of messages being like, hey, we'd love to be on your podcast, but they listen to you much more than they listen to us.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a lot of work to fill your podcast with guests. And, you know, half the half of that time is spent figuring out, like, who does my audience want to listen to? So when your audience is literally telling you, we want these people, it's like, slam dunk. Like, so easy. Like, oh, yeah. Hell yeah, let's ask them.

Okay, so let's get into it today. I wanted to start us off by reading an interesting quote that we got. So we mentioned to you that we put up a bunch of question boxes on Instagram asking people to share their jealousy with us. And somebody wrote, jealousy isn't healthy. Trust and love go hand in hand. Please don't normalize jealousy. So this really got me thinking. Like, I do think that, of course, there are a lot of Situations where jealousy is an unhelpful emotion. It can even be a manipulative or abusive dynamic that comes up in relationships. And at the same time, like, I don't think we need to completely demonize jealousy.

Well, yeah, it's not that. It's not the feeling that is causing those things. It is the acting that goes after those feelings that creates those bad situations, those unhealthy dynamics.

Yeah, I mean, I do think that jealousy is a normal feeling and experience to have. I think every human being is going to experience it at least once. And you may have heard us say before, like, you can't control your feelings. You can't force yourself not to feel a certain feeling. And I do think that also we can learn a lot from our jealousy because it comes up only in specific situations. Like, we don't feel jealousy about every single thing. Like, jealousy is actually very illuminating.

Yeah, it shines a light on ourselves.

Absolutely. So again, like, jealousy obviously can become problematic if you're feeling it really tense, intensely. If you're feeling it all the time, if your partner is using it to manipulate or be emotionally abusive towards you, like, of course that's a problem. But it doesn't mean that all jealousy is inherently bad. So let's share, like, some overall tips of how we approach jealousy, like the healthy relationship that we want you to have with jealousy. So I think if we take this approach of saying, like, jealousy is normal, let's not beat ourselves up for feeling it. Let's not try to force ourselves not to feel it. But let's take a look at what it's trying to tell us. What is the message that it's trying to share with us? So I would think, in particular about why are you getting jealous about this particular person thing or dynamic, and what underlying need might you have and how can you address that underlying need? So it might sound like talking it through your. With yourself and saying something like, you know, okay, I think I'm feeling jealous because of blank, and I'm wanting blank.

Let me give you a real life example.

Because something that you're jealous of.

Well, no, just. Just sort of like something that comes up for me occasionally or came up for me. I don't. I don't think we've shared this on the podcast yet, but we just adopted a new dog. His name is Chauncey.

You might have heard him tinkling around in the background.

You might have heard him tinkling around.

Our foster failure.

Yeah, our foster failure. We fostered him for a couple of days and we were like, nope, this is our dog. And, yeah, so we adopted him. And so he and Maggie are getting along great, and we've been bonding with him. And when we first got Chauncey, he was very, very enamored with me. Like, I was, like, the obvious alpha. He followed me around everywhere in the house. He just totally was in love with me. And over the last couple of days, he's been becoming more and more enamored of with me. Ye. And I mean, it makes sense. I'm. I'm out of the house more than Vanessa is, you know, so, like, she's been spending a little bit more time with him. And, I don't know, Vanessa just kind of has the big, big dog energy. Oh, big dog vibe. Yeah, she's got that. She's got the BDE big dog. And so, you know, I found a couple moments where I'm feeling a little jealous of, like, oh, like, Chauncey just is following her now. Like, Chauncey wants to be with her on the couch. And. But, yeah, but. So here's the thing, is that I could take that out on Vanessa. I could be like, oh, I'm feeling jealous of Vanessa, because, like, that is what I'm feeling. But, like, Vanessa hasn't done anything wrong. I could take that out on her. Or I could go through this process and be like, okay, I'm feeling jealous of Vanessa because Chauncey is spending a little bit more time with her. And what I'm wanting is, like, I'm wanting some connection with Chauncey. So, like, what could I do to fulfill that need? Like, oh, could I do something special with him? You know? Oh, could I maybe, Like, I could make different decisions about, like, you know, being out of the house. I could spend more time with him. I could, you know, go over and cuddle with him instead of sitting on my side of the couch and just hoping that he comes over to sit on my side. So, you know, I could either be like, oh, Vanessa, just like the dogs always love Vanessa. What about me? Or I could get curious about myself and be like, oh, what is it that I'm wanting? And how could I go about trying to fulfill that want or need?

Yeah, because the thing is, we don't get jealous about random scenarios. Like, I'm not jealous of Xander's outfit right now, for example.

It's like, oh, because there's nothing special.

Like, there's just nothing. You know, there's nothing that gets me, like, tied up in that. Like, we get jealous because there is some sort of underlying need or want or desire that we have. You know, it's. It's that person or that experience is showing us something that we want for ourselves. And so that example that Xander's showing, like, perfectly illustrates, like, if you just feel the jealousy and you feel bad about yourself and you feel like you're not supposed to feel it, like, you're gonna miss what the lesson is for you, what the insight is for you. So instead, what we want to encourage you to do is get curious, like, okay, why am I feeling jealous about this particular thing? Do I consistently get jealous about similar types of situations? And then, you know, once you might be able to identify, like, why it is that you're feeling jealous, the next step is identifying what it is that you're like. Like, what sor. Action you could take to create more of that experience for yourself. Like, Xander was saying, I could get up off the couch and go pet him and cuddle him instead of waiting around for him to come to me.

Yeah. Like, instead of being like, oh, well, I'm jealous of Vanessa, and so I need. Vanessa needs to just spend less time with our dog. Like, that's the obvious solution. Like, just stop. Stop paying so much attention to our dog. Like, that sounds kind of ridiculous when I say it, but I think, like, as we read through some of these jealousy examples that a lot of people gave, and that's the way a lot of people end up sort of wanting to react to jealousy is like, oh, I'm feeling jealous of you, so you need to stop doing X, Y, and Z. When in reality, like, in the case. In the Chauncey case, it's like, oh, okay. Like, yeah, like, it's. It actually sounds kind of ridiculous to tell Vanessa to spend less time with our new dog when instead, like, I could spend more time with our dog. I could make. You know, I could make an additional effort to carve out some nice cuddle time with him or, you know, come cuddle with him and Vanessa together. Like, rather than just wanting it to be a certain way for me, like, it was in the first couple of days when we had him.

Another tip that we want to share is to allow yourself to feel the feelings, but not necessarily act out the behaviors. So jealousy can get us into bad situations when we act out without thinking about it. So I think here it would be really valuable for us to make the distinction between taking action and acting out.

Oh, yeah.

So a lot of times we get into bad situations with jealousy when we just act out on the jealousy, we feel the feeling it's uncomfortable. And we do stuff like grabbing our partner's phone or telling them they're not allowed to be friends with a certain person or, you know, trying to make some sort of complicated rules for them. We just, like, haven't even taken the time to feel into, like, what is it that's coming up for me, and why is it coming up? And what do I need? And what sort of, you know, thoughtful action can I take? We're just acting out versus, you know, being really thoughtful about, like, okay, why is this coming up for me? And, you know, what is it that I can do to help manage these feelings that are coming up for me in this moment? So I think with jealousy, it's, you know, again, we're trying to normalize that. The experience of jealousy itself. It's a normal feeling that we're all going to feel, and it's okay for all of us to feel it. So let's allow for the feelings, but not allow for the bad behaviors. So we can't prevent ourselves from feeling jealousy, but we can prevent ourselves from acting out on that jealousy. Okay, so let's get into the specific scenarios, and I think a lot of our advice will make even more sense as we start to, like, walk our way through some of these. So when we asked people on Instagram to share what made them feel jealous, there were definitely categories that things fell into, like work, sex, friendships, and attraction to other people. Those seem to be, like, the four main categories that kept coming up over and over again. So let's get into some examples.

All right, first one is he follows Instagram models that are mostly naked he likes and comments on their photos constantly.

Okay, so for this scenario, this is one that we get asked about all the time. People are always asking us, like, is it okay for my partner to follow these accounts? Can I tell my partner not to follow these kinds of accounts? And there really is no one size fits all advice here. Like, this is something that every couple needs to have a conversation about and decide your own boundaries for this. So there are some couples who would say, you know, yeah, I do not want my partner following these accounts. It feels disrespectful to me. I just don't want them to do that. And there are other couples that think, like, it turns me on to see my partner following other accounts and seeing them getting kind of, like, fired up about it. And then they bring that energy back to me and we have really great sex with it. So it's going to be all over the spectrum. So my advice Here would be whatever boundaries you want to have around this. That's okay. You know, you get to decide that. And you and your partner have to talk out your boundaries and comfort levels together and make a joint decision about what feels good for you. For me, personally, when I read the. Like, he's liking and commenting on the photos constantly, that feels slightly different to me. It doesn't feel, you know, it's not just a passive. Like, yeah, I have these accounts that come up and, like, sometimes it's just like, you know, gives me a little bit of a zing to see, like, sexy pictures, and I do whatever. A man would never say that.

I've never heard that before. I'm gonna start using. I'm gonna.

I don't know where that came from.

Oh, that gave me a zing.

I was think I have a different thought already that I'm, like, trying to get to, and I was just quickly trying to get to there. And I don't know what a zing was, but what also popped in my head in that moment was like, it does feel similar to, you know, we've been talking a lot more about, like, reading smutty books lately, or it's like, you know, a lot of women are reading smutty books, and we get very wrapped up in these worlds and these characters. Like, especially on TikTok, you'll see women talking about, like, oh, this is my book boyfriend. And, you know, like, oh, I want my partner to, like, be more like my book boyfriend. So it's like we all get some amount of external stimulation. You know, it's not that we become committed to our partner, and all of a sudden we're not attracted to anybody else. We don't look anywhere else. It's like we're all getting a little bit of zing in different places, and, like, that's okay. But to me, the. Yeah. Liking and commenting on the photos constantly does feel like it might be starting to veer into a different sort of territory where it's like, it might be about the volume of it. Like, how much time is your partner really spending on this? Are they neglecting time with you because they're just glued to their phone, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling? Are they saying nice things about you and your appearance? Are they taking time to connect with you emotionally, you know, or does it feel like you're being neglected for your partner's phone? So I do think that that, you know, to me, that signals that there might be something a little bit more complex going on where you may want to have A more in depth conversation with your partner. But I do think, again, like, this is the general boundaries around us getting turned on by other things. What sorts of conversations do we want to have about that? And I do think that maybe we need to make a whole podcast episode about, like, spicy Books, because I do think there is something very interesting about that. Like, it's the same. Obviously, it's not visual in the same sort of way, but, like, you are picture. You know, I'm thinking about books that I've read. Like, I can picture those characters. They've been described. I have this image in my head. I visualize them, you know, having sex as I'm reading these scenes. Like, I know, you know, it's definitely. Yeah, there is a level of engagement that I have with those characters that I think it's very easy for us to look at, you know, hot girl Instagram accounts and be upset about them. Like, I mean, I'll be totally honest, if I knew that you were following a ton of accounts, like, I wouldn't feel super comfortable with that either. But I've never thought about me reading smutty books in the same sort of way. Like, it's obviously a completely different medium, but there it is. You know, it's this. It's a similarity. If we're getting turned on by other people in, you know, in context outside of the relationship.

Yeah, I mean, I can't stop your imagination. Can't stop the zing.

Can't stop the zing. So let us know if you want us to do a deeper dive into this. I thought I had a straightforward answer here, but the more I talk about it, the more I'm like, this is actually very complex. There are a lot of layers here. So let us know if you want us to do a deeper dive into this or a deeper dive into smutty books.

But, yeah, I mean, regardless of how you feel about the whole, like, Instagram model thing, like, at the, like, if you are feeling like, hey, you would love more compliments or you would love your partner to comment and like your own photos on Instagram more often, like, that is a very valid need or want. Like, that would be a perfectly fair thing to ask, completely independently of how you feel about the first part of the question. I just want to throw that out there. So, you know, if, like, that is coming up for you, like, I think, you know, it's totally fair to ask your partner, hey, I would love it if you said more nice things about me or, like, just, like, liked my photos on Instagram Okay, Xander, let me.

Turn the next one over to you. My wife gives me 0% of her free time, and 100% of her free time is spent with her best friends. Okay, what do you think about this one?

I think that probably it's not 0 and 100, but maybe it's close to. Maybe it feels close to that. We tried to, like, not talk in absolutes like that because it ends up kind of being an unhelpful way to characterize it, especially if you were to say that to your partner, like, oh, you never spend any free time with me. You spend all of your free time with someone else, because then all of a sudden, your partner will just deflect from that conversation and be like, well, no, I'm spending time with you right now, so it can't be zero percent. Right? So I think that this is a totally valid thing to have to have some feelings about. If for you, it is feeling like you're not getting any sort of extra free time with your partner, and your partner is devoting most or all of that free time to other people. I think here the big question is, are you making an effort to. To carve out free time or activities that you want to do with your wife and, like. Or is. Or is. Are you just kind of, like, wanting to, you know, have unstructured time where you guys are together and your wife is instead being like, oh, well, my friend asked me to do this, so I'm gonna go out and do that. And so I think that, you know, my curiosity is like, okay, it sounds like you. Obviously, you have a need for spending more time with your wife, and that is totally valid. So, like, can you take some action to make some plans with your wife to use that free time? Because it sounds like your wife is clearly, like, doing a lot of planning to be spending all this free time with her plan. So I'm going to assume that your wife is. Is a planner, likes to have things scheduled. And so I'm curious, like, could you schedule some things now if you started to, you know, say, hey, like, I would love to do this with you on Saturday. Could we, you know, do this, you know, go to this whatever place for a couple of hours? And she's, you know, and then she starts saying, no, I can't do that because I already have these plans? Or, like. Or she's canceling your plans because she's making new plans, and that's a different conversation.

Yeah. So I think what I would say is, don't tell your wife I want us to spend more time together, because that just feels, like, too vague. It's hard to take action from that, especially if it feels like you're not really getting very much time at all. So instead, what I would do is, like, Xander's saying, is make specific requests of time that you want to spend together. And I would also think about trying to create some sort of ritual out of it. So maybe you could say something like, hey, babe, I would love if Wednesdays, like, every Wednesday was just our special day where we have dinner together, we watch our favorite show, you know, whatever it is. But I think if you carve out, like, one specific day and it feels like a special ritual thing that you guys do, that could make it a lot easier to adhere to as well.

Yeah, I mean, I think I. My best guess in this situation is that we probably have two very different types of partners. One partner, the wife, is probably, you know, more of a planner, a scheduler type. And I'm guessing that the person asking this question is probably someone that enjoys more, like, unstructured plans or flying by the seat of their pants. And so I can imagine this dynamic can be pretty common in that type of situation because, like, one person is like, oh, great, it's a weekend. I just want to have no plans. And, like, yeah, maybe we end up doing things, but it's, like, nice to just have free time and to kind of, like, sit around and see what happens. And then the other person is like, I really don't feel comfortable with that. I want to have things planned out. And so the result ends up being that, well, the time ends up getting planned out because the other partner didn't plan anything. And so then both partners can just feel totally at odds about that. So if that's your. If that's your situation. I like what Vanessa said about, like, carving out a day or even carving out a range of time. I feel like there's a way to schedule relatively unstructured time that would feel good for the kind of unstructured person, but also feel okay for the scheduled person where it's like, hey, I know. I know that you don't love, like, sitting around without a plan. You know, for me, that's something that I really love it. You know, I feel really close to you, and we get to just kind of, like, I don't know, sleep in or have a couple of hours where we could watch a show, we could go out for lunch or whatever. So I would love it if on this day, we could have a couple hours where you know, where we do something like that, where, you know, I don't want us to be sitting around doing separate activities, like, we're going to hang out together, but we're not going to have an explicit plan, like, going into that time of, like, we have to go here or there.

And the last thing I'd say about this one is it's a perfect example of acting out versus taking action. So you could act out and be grumpy AF with your partner, like, going out with the girls again, or, you know, like, where are you going? This kind of thing.

Thing, like, you never spend any time with me. Why don't you love me?

Yeah. Or you could take the time to think about, like, why am I getting jealous about this? Ah, this one is very easy and obvious. I'm getting jealous because I miss my wife. So instead of being an asshole to her and driving her even farther away and like, oh, I don't want to be with this person who's cranky with me all the time. I'm going to go hang out with my friends instead. Like, by taking thoughtful action and telling your partner, you know, like, yeah, I want us to have a special ritual together, or like, I want us to hang out and do this type of thing. Like, that's gonna make such a big difference. And you're also just gonna be able to validate yourself as well. Like, yeah, it's okay to say, like, I miss my wife. I like my wife. I don't wanna hang out with her. All right, let's move on.

All right, next one. I'm jealous of coworkers getting kid free time with my partner. We don't get kid free time until after kids bedtime, but then we are exhausted and our brains don't function as well.

Okay, so this person has already taken that step of identifying, like, why is it that they are feeling jealous? So they didn't just say, like, I'm jealous of my partner's co workers. There actually were some, some messages that we got. Some people were just like, I get super jealous as soon as my partner leaves the house for work. And. And so those were a little bit more clear of, like, yeah, you haven't taken the time to figure out why that is. This person has. Like, my co workers get to have kid free time with my partner. And that makes a lot of sense to be jealous about. Like, that's such a challenge for parents and it's such a monumental shift in your relationship. Like, when you guys started your relationship, it was just the two of you. And you got to have all that magical time together with like just the two of you. And with kids, it shifts the balance completely, completely and permanently. Where, you know, you're just not going to have until the kids are out of the house, like you're just not going to have as much of that special quality time that you used to have. So makes perfect sense to feel jealous about your partner's co workers getting to experience them kid free, like no kids around, just being able to be with them. So then I think, of course, like the next step is identifying. Like, can the two of you create more kid free time together? And of course that's challenging. I do not want to make that seem like it's just super easy. But I think if you just start from this place of identifying, like, I miss my partner, I want to get to have these experiences with them. Like, I mean, that's advice that we give to all parents is even if it's just a few minutes a day or half an hour once a week, like carve out a little bit of time where the two of you can just be the two of you. So whether that's like going out on date nights, you can get creative with childcare. Maybe it's swapping off with a friend of yours so you guys each get to have a weekly date night. Maybe it's finding babysitters or asking family members. Maybe it's, you know, having creative date nights, like at the end of the night when the kids are asleep. Like, there are a lot of different ways that you can try to do it. And again, it's not easy. But I think what your jealousy is pointing out to you right now is that it's needed and it's worthwhile.

Yeah. Because I, I know that it can feel really tempting when you're in the midst of that emotion to feel like, oh, well, it's just, it's impossible for us to get any kid free time. Like, that's not gonna happen. So like, so then it feels like the answer is like, oh, well, I like, I wish my husband like couldn't talk to anybody at work or I wish he had a job that he hated with shitty co workers that sucked or something like that. Where it's like, oh, well, yeah, then I. But like, would that actually make you feel any better about the situation? I doubt it. Because, well, one, your husband would be less happy overall because he would be less happy in his job. He wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone, wouldn't like the people that, you know, he gets to communicate with. So he would be coming home with probably a much more negative energy and you still wouldn't have any kid free time. And so then in the very little kid free time you get after their bedtime, where your brains aren't functioning, it's gonna be even worse because he's gonna be really depressed and negative. So, yeah, all the answers still point back to the underlying need, which is, hey, we need. We need to find a way to have a little bit more kid free time.

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There's some tough choices.

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This one is so interesting because it's really open ended. There are a lot of different shades of this one. So, you know, obviously like, we can't give you a very tailored answer to your situation, but I think this is something that a lot of people might relate with for various reasons. I mean, I think the first thing I would try to get really honest with yourself about, like, okay, so like what is it about this other woman? Or what is it about the relationship that your partner has with this other woman? Like this friendship that your partner has with this other woman that you're feeling jealous of.

I would actually start it with the what is it that he's saying about her? Yeah, like is it just that? But I guess where my brain goes to immediately is it just the way that he talks about her? Maybe you feel like he doesn't talk about you in that same way or hasn't in a while. So I think that's such a key thing that gets lost in long term relationships is we stop talking to and about our partner in positive ways. It sounds so sad and simple, but it's really very true. So maybe it's like it's even the simplest things of like, oh, Jenny said the funniest thing today. Or like Jenny was so nice, she brought me an extra Coffee from Starbucks, where you're like, oh, why don't you ever talk about me in that nice way? Or anything like that.

It might just be that, oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think jealousy also limits our ability to kind of process things. And we start seeing things in this binary. Like, if you're feeling jealous and your partner is like, oh, yeah, like, Jenny told me this funny story about whatever. Like, what you hear is like, like, oh, well, like, do I. I never tell you funny stories. Or like, oh, like, this cool thing happened to Jenny and it's like, oh, do you think, like, I should be doing that? And it's like we start flipping everything around like, oh, well, there must be a reason that he told me this. Like, he's trying to imply that I should be doing that. Or like, how come I never do that? And those type of comparisons are like, oh, well, how come? Like, oh, well, you must be saying, I don't do this, or you wish that I was doing this. Like, that's just the jealousy talking.

I think I will say about this one too, though. You are not allowed to tell your partner that they can't have friends of whatever sex they are attracted to. Like, you can't say, oh, I'm getting really jealous about this friendship. And I want to make a boundary that he's not allowed to have friends that are women. Like, that's not an acceptable boundary to have. I think a lot of people have this idea that, you know, your partner, if they have any sort of relationship with somebody of, you know, whatever gender they're attracted to, that that means they're going to be tempted to cheat or they are going to cheat. And I just think that that ends up being very controlling. Like, it's understandable if you feel some anxiety or fear about being cheated on. I mean, a lot of us have been cheated on. It absolutely does suck. But just because your partner is attracted to that general sex does not mean that they're going to be attracted to every single person that they have relationships with, have friendships with, with. And definitely does not mean that they are going to cheat on you. So I'll just say, like, yeah, we can't use jealousy as a way to control our partner's behavior in this kind of way. Like, we're allowed to have friendships outside of the relationship.

Yeah, I mean, also, you. You could also flip this one around of, like, if you don't love that. He's talking very often about. He's. He's. He's obviously telling you about what is, you know, what he talked about with his friend. And so I think there's a good question of, well, what would you rather that he keep all of that a secret? Would you rather not know anything about what is going on? Yeah, with that, like, you know, I think that's not really a good answer. It's like, he probably feels like he's just letting you in on his life and he's trying to be like, show that he's being trustworthy. Like, oh, yeah, hey, we were hanging out and we talked about this. Or, like, this is what is going on with this other person. And I doubt that he is thinking, like, oh, yeah, let's. Let's rile up my partner by. By telling, you know, telling her about this. You know, this other friend that I have, he's probably just thinking, like, oh, yeah, I'm just, like, sharing my life with you. So, yeah, I think that's another way to think about it. Like, would you. Would you actually be happy. Would you be happier if you knew that he was, like, hanging out with this friend all the time but never told you anything about them? Like, I doubt that. All right, our next one. Vanessa. When I see my husband having a good time. Good time is in quotes. So I'm not sure exactly sure what this means.

It's another case of confusing quotation marks. Yeah.

With other girls, like, laughing with them.

Okay. This is another interesting one as well. So, of course it fits into our standard formula of, you know, why is it that you're feeling jealous in that moment? Maybe it's that you feel like you don't have very many, quote, unquote, good times with your partner.

Yeah. How much are you laughing?

Yeah. How much are you guys laughing together? So, you know, that's definitely something to look into together. And I would say my same advice that I just said for the last one, like, we can't say, you know, he's not allowed to talk to women. He's not allowed to laugh with other women. He's not allowed to have friendships with other women. Like, those are not acceptable boundaries to have. I will say about this one, though, I think this kind of jealousy can actually be a very positive thing in a relationship. So I know, like, when we've had experiences of going to parties and I see you talking to other people and not even women necessarily, like, anybody. Like, I get to see you in a different sort of light and see you being funny and kind and charming and thoughtful and, like, all that stuff and just being, you know, like, not being a part of that conversation. But Just watching you from a distance, it actually makes me feel grateful to be with you. Like, look at him. He's so cute. And, like, yeah, of course he's charming these people. Or like, of course people are laughing. Like, it makes me feel good. To me, this feels like a. I wouldn't describe it as jealousy for myself personally, but it just feels like a healthy sort of.

What's it like?

It's like, attraction.

Yeah. It's like I have an attractive partner. I have a partner other people are attracted to. And I don't just mean physically attracted, but, like, yeah, energetically attracted to. And, like, that's my partner. Like, yeah, Like, I love having a beautiful wife. I think Vanessa is really beautiful. And, like, I'm proud of that. I don't want to be like, oh, yeah, now that we're married, like, don't. You know, don't show your face. Don't look good. Don't. Whatever. Yeah, yeah, you know, like, I'm proud of Vanessa.

Yeah. It's like, you know, who's he coming home with at the end of the night?

Me.

I mean, I actually have had some times where I felt a little bit of jealousy, but it actually felt like it kind of fired me up to, like. Like, to be with you, where it was like, oh, yeah, I see what that girl is trying to do, and it's not gonna happen.

Yeah.

Because I got there first, you know, so it's like, it's. It's as long as obviously, if. If it was. If I was watching you with another woman and you were, like, touching her or, like, you know, if crossing any sort of boundary, then I'd be like, you know, fuck this. This is not okay. But if all you're doing is, like, just talking and laughing, and maybe you're like. Like, point out me from across the room or whatever it is. Like, you know, it's just like. I think that's actually a great situation to feel a little bit of, like, positive jealousy about. Like, oh, yeah, other people want my partner, and I get to take them home. Like, they've chosen me. We are together. It's not a. It's like, I don't want to make it sound possessive, like, he's mine kind of thing, but, you know, there's just, like, there is something that can be kind of exciting. So maybe. Maybe see if there's a way that you can get a little bit fired up about it. Like, yeah, of course other people are attracted to my partner. They're hot, they're funny, they're a Catch. They're exciting and like, I'm so lucky that I get to be with them. And I'm so. I get to give myself a little confidence boost that this attractive, funny, like, likable person has also chosen me. So I think this can be a great experience. Okay, let's move on to the next one. I'm dating a divorced person with kids. It's hard to feel like the outsider in the family when I see photos from the past. How do I get over this?

Ooh, this is a good question.

This is a really good question.

I'm sure it's a very common situation too.

And I think, like, it all, it also just fits in with a larger theme of your partner's past.

Yeah, like my partner has a past.

My partner has a past that I was not a part of.

Yeah. And, and I can imagine this is obviously a very different scenario from like, if you get into a new relationship with someone and they don't have kids, there's a general expectation that like, you know, you're not going to be like pulling out the photo album from their last relationship and like walking through that. Whereas obviously this is a totally different situation. It's not just your partner, it's your partner and their, and their kids. And they have had a whole life before you got there. And you can't just erase that. You can't erase those memories. And especially for the kids, like, you know, the kids can't be like, oh, okay, like my parent has like a new, is in a new relationship, therefore we can't talk about the past. Like, you know, kids aren't thinking about it that way at all. You know, maybe, maybe, you know, the partner could, could potentially be a bit more sensitive to. Like, okay, I'm not going to bring up like, you know, specific memories about like my old partner, you know, with, with my new partner. But like, you know, the kids aren't gonna necessarily do that and of course, like you're gonna want to have like photos up, you know, that are, you know, that are like your kids memories and stuff. So I think that this is sort of a two parter. Like, I think that there is some amount of just, just straight up acceptance that you need to be able to get to, about, you know, hey, my partner and my partner's kids have had a whole life in the past and that's not going away. And that's, that's something that I need to be able to respect and to celebrate. And the second part, which is I think kind of getting to the more of the getting over this is seeing that you have a huge opportunity to create a new life and new experiences and new memories with this partner and their kids. And you get to create those memories and literally, like, take those photos that might go up on the wall that are going to go in the scrapbooks. Like, you get to be a part of the new chapter. And so, you know, I think that if your focus is more on, oh, all this stuff in the past feels so uncomfortable, like, you're probably energetically not so much, like, creating those new, you know, really fun memories in the present, such that in the future you'll be talking about those. So I think it's just a reframing of, like, hey, from today onward, like, we get to write a whole new chapter together. Let's focus on that stuff. And, you know, I think it'll start to feel more comfortable and easy to accept that stuff in the past where it's like, you know, as more and more time goes by, like, you know, the kids and everyone will be talking about more and more memories that you're making right now.

Yeah.

And so it will feel easier. But I do think that there's just a basic kind of acceptance that you need to get to. If, like, the kids aren't going to stop talking about the past, they're not going to, like, take down the photos, nor should they. Like, you imagine how that would feel to you when you were a kid. Like, that just wouldn't work.

Yeah, I guess maybe this sounds a little bit cheesy, but the way that I look at our partner's past is like, everybody has a past and there's literally nothing that we can do to change it. Like, we cannot turn back time. So we can drive ourselves nuts thinking about all the things our partner has experienced in the past and how we have zero control over any of that. Or we can view it the way that I view it, which is just that, like, everything in your past led you to me. And maybe we can even get, like, I don't know, kind of spiritual about it. Of, like, if you didn't have the past that you had, maybe it wouldn't have brought you to me. Maybe our paths wouldn't have crossed in the ways that they did. So I try to get myself, like, of course there are moments where, you know, especially earlier in the relationship, not so much now that we've been together for, like, 16 years, but, like, of course, at the very beginning when I'm thinking about your exes or, you know, that kind of stuff, it's like, oh, it's a little uncomfortable. But I, I do think it's still, like, there's a way of looking at it of, yeah, like all of those experiences that you had brought you to me, and I'm grateful that that's how our paths have crossed.

Yeah. And I mean, I think it's also important to remember. That was a great point after 16 years. Yeah, I don't really remember like a lot of that stuff from before that very well. Like, you know, the. When we're thinking about, like memories and getting sentimental, it's so much. 99% of the time it's about stuff that happened in the last 16 years. So I think that's just important to remember that as more time goes by, more and more of that kind of like memory bank of like, your, your memories will be focused on the more recent stuff than on the stuff that was like, way in the past. So, like, you literally just have to make those memories and like, let the time go by and this problem will solve itself.

Is that our tip? Just wait 16 years.

Yeah, just, just wait 16 years and.

You won't feel jealous anymore.

Easy. Yeah, just, just force yourself to not feel jealous for 16 years and then you won't, you won't ever have to again.

Great, great advice.

All right, how about this one? Vanessa? My wife doesn't initiate, but has said she does masturbate often. It makes me jealous of her toys.

Ooh, good one. Okay, we have a general piece of advice here when it comes to masturbating in long term relationships. So first of all, I do want to say, like, there is something different about masturbating versus being intimate with your partner. For most of us who have figured out masturbation often masturbating is quick, it's easy, it's to the point, it can often just feel like a stress relief or a way to help us get to sleep faster so it doesn't feel like as much time or effort or like, you know, obviously there's no emotional connection that has to go into like being intimate with yourself. So it can feel very different. That being said, our general guideline, which it doesn't need to be a hundred percent of the time, but in general, in long term relationships, we think it's best to initiate sex with your partner first before masturbating. So if your partner, it's basically like, if you're feeling open to intimacy, invite your partner to be a part of that with you before you decide you're just going to do it on your Own. So again, this does not have to be 100% of the time. There may be times where you're like, you know what, I'm just not really open to being intimate with my partner, but I want to have a quick orgasm so I can just go to sleep faster. That's fine, but let's say like 80% of the time, try to invite your partner to be intimate with you first. If they're not open to it, then go masturbate to your heart's delight. So maybe play this podcast out loud like our reviewer recommended. Play this out loud while your wife's nearby so you guys can have a conversation about this. But I think that that that's a great rule for all couples to at least discuss. Maybe you want to make some modifications to it for your relationship, but the general idea of inviting each other to be intimate first.

Also, if you are feeling jealous of your wife's toys, one idea is to initiate some sex and invite those toys to join the party.

Oh, yes.

With you. Because you might find yourself having a lot more fun and feeling a lot less jealous of those toys.

Yes, that's a great, great idea. We'll also link to our Art of Initiation course in the show notes. It's a really fun course for couples to go through together to learn how to get more confident and more excited about initiating. It may be that your wife actually just doesn't feel confident enough to initiate with you in the moment.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like there may be an underlying need or desire here of like, hey, how come my wife doesn't have ever initiate sex? I think I might really like it if my wife also initiated sex in addition to me initiating sex. So I think that that's like a huge one because I mean, that's the other way to consider it. Like, yeah, if your wife initiated sex more often, like, would you feel differently about the masturbation and the toys? Like, that's, that's another way to look at it. Like, I don't, you know, it's probably the long term answer is probably that both of you are initiating sex so that you both feel wanted and desired.

Here's the next one. Xander visibly checking out other people that they find attractive.

So you're saying you want their eyes to stop working? Is that what you're saying?

Yes.

I mean, this, this is, this is one we hear all the time. I mean, again, there are a lot of shades to this one. I think that there can be an expectation sometimes in long term relationships or once you get into a Committed relationship that all of a sudden, like, like I was joking about like, that basically all of a sudden your eyes stop working and you never look at anyone else. With the idea being that, oh, well, I don't ever want my partner to ever find anyone attractive so that I don't ever need to feel the slightest bit of jealousy. But I think the reality is, is that is impractical. We, you know, we have eyes, assuming those eyes are working properly. You see things with those eyes and yeah, you can try to look away or whatever, but, like, you know, you cannot literally go through the world without, like, ever seeing anybody else and ever having the possibility of having a zing. Like, like Vanessa would say, I'm. I'm liking this. I'm so upset that having a little innocent. Having a little innocent zing. You know what? This is actually, you know, this is actually very interesting to. To comparison, to make. To jealousy itself because we're saying, hey, like, you can't. Like, the goal can't be to not feel jealous, but it's what we do with it that that matters is we could take action or we can act out. And let's not. Let's try not to act out. I think this is the same thing with this checking other people out. We can't stop our partner from seeing other people. We can't stop ourselves from seeing other people. But what we can control is, like, what we do after we see someone. Like, you know, is it. I'm just thinking of that meme of, like, the guy and the. The girl walking down the street and.

The girl, oh, and the guy's turned.

The guy's like, turned. Yeah, turned around and she's, like, looking at him horrified. Like, like, if that's what is happening, you know, if your partner's, like, consistently doing double takes or like, staring or like, making comments or whatever, then yeah, absolutely, you guys get to have a conversation about that and kind of like, what. What is actually going on or like, what feels acceptable in your relationship. But yeah, I think it all depends on. On what the partner is doing.

Yeah, well, and this is another conversation that all couples need to have because there are going to be different levels of com. So again, it's like you can't make a boundary that says you can never be attracted to another person. But you could say something like, hey, I understand that you're going to, like, other people are going to catch your eye, but please just be discreet and like, don't do it around me. Don't make it obvious. And there are going to be couples who are, like, I think it's hot to check out other people together. Like, you and I, we, like, when we see somebody who's really attractive, like, we'll point them out on the street, and, like, we kind of enjoy that together. We have the zing together.

We get zing. We get zung. Do we. Is that. Is that the plural or the past tense? Z, Zung or zung.

Zed.

Zuned. Young and zed.

So it's gonna be different for every couple. Like, you know, I'm not saying the way that we do it is the right way. That's just us. So have a conversation with each other about, like, here's what I feel comfortable with us doing and not doing. Also, though, even if you and your comfortable. Even if you and your partner feel comfortable, like, pointing out attractive people, please just don't be creepy about it. Like, don't leer at them. Or, like, you know, I just. I always feel like I have to say that, like, you can respect somebody's beauty, but in a way that is respectful.

Right.

So do that.

But, yeah, and. And speaking of respectful, I mean, I think that, like, you know, if in the moment you are noticing your partner is, like, doing a double or a triple take or, like, literally turned around on the street, like, ignoring and is staring at someone, it's totally valid to say, hey, you know, hey. This feels uncomfortable and disrespectful. Like, you know, I think it's not a good look to see you, like, literally, like, turned around, like, John floor staring at someone like. Or like, she can see you doing that.

Like, don't make somebody feel uncomfortable just for existing.

Yeah, I feel uncomfortable in public seeing you do that, knowing that, you know, you are my partner and I know that you're making this person and feel uncomfortable. That is a totally acceptable thing to say to talk about, like, your own comfort and how, you know, how it feels gross or yucky or offensive to you. I think what's not okay in the moment is to, you know, kind of, like, slap them on the wrists and be like, you're not allowed to look at other people, because what your partner hears is it's like, that's like being like, oh, like, you're not allowed to taste this food that you're eating.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right. My husband gets jealous of my best friends and my love of Taylor Swift. I'm wondering why his jealousy only seems directed only at other women.

Well, I had to include this one because we have a lot of swifties on our Team, so they might be able to understand jealousy towards Taylor Swift. I mean, I. It's the second part of this question, though, that really interested me. Like, why is my husband's jealousy only directed at other women? The idea that came to mind for me is that I think women have more emotionally intimate relationships with each other than men do with each other and even sometimes than men do with women. Like, there's just a way that we women are able to be, like, you know, with our close friends, just so emotional and connected and intimate with each other. And men are not given that same societal permission. Like, men are not allowed to be emotional, emotional creatures. Men are not allowed to, like, cry in front of their dude friends or, like, talk about their real feelings with their dudes. And, you know, I think when I, like, watch men interact with each other, sometimes I get so sad because I'm like, wow, that's. That's the extent of your friendship? It's like talking about the weather and golf and slapping each other on the back and, like, making dick jokes. It's like, all those things are fine and fun. Like, that's great. But if that's, like, the extent of your friendships, I mean, it's just really tough. I feel sad for men that they are not given the societal permission to have the same sorts of relationships that we women have. So I. I think that's my little hunch that maybe that's coming up for that man. Maybe he feels jealous because he doesn't have those kinds of relationships with people in his life, or maybe he's feeling jealous because he feels like the two of you don't have that kind of relationship. So I would get curious and just ask him, say, like, hey, I've noticed. Notice that sometimes, like, some strong feelings. And I wouldn't even say jealousy. I'd say, like, sometimes it seems like some strong feelings come up for you when I'm talking about my friends or Taylor Swift, and I'm just, like, curious what that's like for you. So open up a conversation. But that's my hunch.

And then finally, Vanessa, my partner, has no jealousy, and it actually makes me feel kind of bad about myself not saying I want him to be a jealous maniac, but maybe a twinge here and there, a zing.

Okay, so when I first read this question, when we were preparing for this episode, like, my thoughts were, you know, we don't. Like, obviously, we wanted to normalize jealousy in this episode and say, like, it is an experience that we're all gonna have. It's okay, let's just be thoughtful about what we do with it. And so my initial reaction to this question was like, no, like, you don't want your partner to be jealous of you. Like, let's not encourage it to that extent. But actually, my mind has changed now that we've gone through some of these scenarios, particularly around the one of like, having a good, quote, unquote, good time with other girls. Because I, I think maybe that's the experience that this person's speaking to. They're s. I mean, they say, I don't want them to be a jealous maniac. Like, they don't want the red flag, creepy, manipulative kind of jealousy that they want to feel. Maybe can we come up with a different word for it?

I think they want to feel wanted.

Yes.

I think that really what it is.

Yeah.

And that what they want, you know, they. They want it to be like, oh, well, like, we know we're out at a bar and you see me talking with, you know, another person and I want to see my partner, like, leave the conversation that they are in and come over to me or something like that. Like, that's. And I think what that is is like, you know, just a feeling like you want to be wanted, you know, because I think that, yeah, there are plenty of people where it's like, yeah, I just don't really feel very much jealousy. I feel super confident in our relationship. I trust you. Like, I'm gonna let you talk to whoever you want to talk to. Like, I trust you. I'm not like looking around the room, like trying to figure out where you are or are you getting into any trouble?

Trouble? Yeah, I'm having a good time, quote, unquote.

Stop being so bad. Stop zinging all over the place. So, yeah, where. Where was I with that? But I mean, I think that, yeah, this person just probably wants to feel a bit more wanted by their partner. And I think that would be a perfectly fair thing to express. What I don't think would be fair is to be like, oh, like, I want you to get protective with me when we're out at parties. I want to see you, like, wanting to push other people away from me or something.

No, I mean, I, I can sympathize with this too, because you are a very non jealous person and there have been times where, or, you know, I think that we are. Yeah. As women, we are socialized to believe our men are supposed to be kind of like protective of us or like, she's mine kind of thing. And even though Logically and rationally, I do not want that. There have been little times, right, I think I've felt something very similar to what this person is saying. Like, I don't want you to be this jealous, you know, creepy maniac. But, like, yeah, I want that sense of being wanted. Or I want to feel, like, admired, or even just, like, I want you to. To see the. I want you to see other people seeing that I'm a catch. So I'm trying to think about, like, if I were to just approach you and say, I want to feel more wanted, I feel like you would not know what that means and you would not know how to give that to me. So I'm trying to figure out, like, how do we make this a more, like, specific request that this person could give to their partner?

Well, I mean, I wonder, because if this is something that is going to just be like, you're asking your partner to do something that is very against their nature. Wonder if this is honestly, like, a fantasy that you want to play out. Like. Like. Like literally setting up a scene. Like, I like, hey, I think it would be super hot if we went out to a bar and, like, you know, and, like, you know, I. You know, once I start getting hit on by someone, I want you to, like, come and, like, seal me away, and then, like, we go home and have sex.

A little role play?

Yeah, like. Like a little role play. Like, to literally play that fantasy out, because I think that's a way. That's a way to do it that is still respectful of your partner. Because you're just saying, I want you to play this role in this. I don't want you to change and become this jealous person. But I want to play with that jealous energy.

Okay, that could be an interesting way to play with it. I also think maybe. Maybe the easy way to phrase it, just to ask your partner, like, why do you think I'm a catch? Like, why do you think? Or you could even say it this way. Why do you think other people would be attracted to me? Or, why were you first attracted to me? So I like that because those are, like, specific questions that you can ask your partner. Again, I'm all about the specificity. If you just tell your partner, like, I want you to make me feel more wanted, they're just gonna be like, I don't know what that means, so I'm not gonna do anything about that. So try asking your partner those questions. Why do you think I'm a catch? Why do you think other people might think that I'm a catch. I think those could be some good conversations for you to have. All right, well, we hope that this has been an interesting, evocative, A zinger of an episode. Zinger of an episode. We hope it's got you thinking about jealousy in some new ways. So we're gonna put one other thing in the show notes for you. We already mentioned that we're gonna link that art of initiation course for you, but we're also gonna put on our sex and connection challenges in there. Both of those challenges are so good at bringing couples together. You will be having new experiences together, creating new memories, creating something special just between the two of you. So it's a great way to get out of your jealousy rut by making you focus instead. Instead of just sitting around simmering in your jealousy.

Do something.

Do something. And let's put that energy and that attention into connecting more deeply with your partner. So those are two different challenges. We have our sex challenge. We have our connection challenge. All the information will be in the show notes for you to check out.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we answer the question, why do guys do this?

I'm excited for that one.

It'll be a zinger. It.