Episode 121: When She Wants It More: Navigating Mismatched Libidos When The Woman Has A Higher Drive

If you're not talking about it, it just becomes this elephant in the room and it becomes more and more awkward because you both know what's going on.

You're not fooling anyone.

You're not fooling anybody. Like, not talking about it is never the solution to anything in life. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with 20 years.

Of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Dipsea for supporting Pillow Talks. Get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com pillow thanks to Green Chef for their continuing support of Pillow Talks. Eat clean the easy way with recipes that help support your wellness goals without skimping on flavor. Go to greenchef.com 60pillow and use code 60pillow. That's 60p I l l o w to get 60% off plus shipping every time you see a male female couple in movies, on TV shows and the conversation somehow turns to their sex life, it's always the exact same thing. The guy is the one who wants it more. And there are often a lot of jokes about that. Like, oh my God, he's so desperate he'll take whatever he can get. She's always having to fight him off of her because he's just wanting it all the time. But what if that's not what your relationship actually looks like? What if you're a woman who finds yourself wanting sex a whole lot more than your male partner? That's what today's episode is all about. Because here's the thing. Despite the dumb jokes we've heard over and over again, the reality is that in 45% of male female relationships, it's actually the woman who wants sex more. We were actually pretty flabbergasted when we polled our community and found that to be true. Like we assumed, like of course, this stereotype that men always want it more. Like that can't be true for every single couple we have experienced in our own relationship. Seasons of our relationship where that was not true, but actually pulling it and discovering that it was almost half of relationships, the woman is the one who wants it more. That was a little bit Mind boggling to us. So we wanted to do an episode specifically about this dynamic because we know, and again, from personal experience, we know just how challenging it can be to be in a relationship where she wants it more than he does. So we're gonna peel apart all the dynamics that get wrapped up into this and talk about what to do if you're in a situation like this.

Now, some of you might be listening at this point and feeling a little bit of relief, thinking, phew, okay, this isn't the case in our relationship, so I. I don't need to worry about this. Thank goodness. But we're going to talk about this more. The reality is that sex drives do shift and they do fluctuate over time. So even if you are not in the situation right now, we can practically guarantee you that there will be at least some time in your relationship where the dynamic flips. Whether it is for years, whether it's for months, a short amount of time, it doesn't really matter because it's. It's just so important to understand this stuff and know how to approach it when the time comes. But actually that time is not right now because this time it is time for review of the week.

Okay.

Wow. They went in hard with the emojis in the. In the title and I got. I don't even know what that one is. Go from this kind of looks like the shocked.

Yeah, shocked emotion.

Go from shocked and scared to cool guy with sunglasses in the bedroom. Cool dude or dudette or any kind of dude person with sunglasses in the bedroom.

Okay.

Yeah. I listen to every episode of the podcast, follow on Instagram, have some guides and have read their book Sex Talks. And I love every single one. And heart eyes. Before finding vnx, my husband and I rarely talked about sex and I never had an orgasm. What is this face? Oh, it's like covering. Oh, hiding behind your hands. Hiding behind her hands. And one little tiny bit of eye is peeking out. But now we regularly talk about sex, and every time I want an orgasm, it's an O face.

Yeah, it is an O face.

But what is this emoji actually called? Because it is not meant to be an O face. Shocked face.

Another shocked face.

Another kind of shocked face, but with an open mouth. So I like that. Oh, phase I. Oh, yeah. So every time I want an orgasm, I get one. Woo. Like, hallelujah, Party time. Our sex life was good before, but now it is mind blowing fire. Mind blowing fire actually sounds bad.

Like it does.

Your mind is blown up and is now on fire. Vanessa and Xander also give brilliant relationship advice. So it will take your relationship to the next level, not just your sex life. Star eyes party phase.

Well, thank you for this delightful review. And if you are a newer listener, let's explain a couple of things. So, yeah, we haven't.

We haven't really done this for a while.

Yeah. When we first started doing reviews, we challenged you to add emojis to Stump Xander because as you can hear, he struggles a little bit to identify the emojis.

Yeah, it became apparent that I'm not a huge emoji user. I have. I have started.

You've gotten a lot better because of this practice with the review of the week.

Yeah, I try, but I. Yeah, I just don't really think to like, oh, let me express my emotions via text, via these, via these faces that I don't necessarily relate with.

So he's gotten a lot better, but it's still entertaining to try to test him with some harder emojis. And also, everyone who wants an orgasm gets an orgasm is one of our favorite phrases, something that we came up with. We shared it in our book. We talk about it on Instagram all the time. And also, if you're brand new, we do review of the week because reviews honestly go such a long way in helping the podcast grow and be able to reach new couples. I know they don't seem like that big of a deal, but I promise you, they really are. We rely on, on your support so much. So we would greatly, greatly appreciate it if you could just take a minute of your time to go over to the Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom. You'll see the review section right there. You can leave a review rate the podcast. Also follow or subscribe to the podcast. All of those things help so much and we do this giveaway every week as our way of saying thank you. So if you hear your review read in an episode, email us@infomtherapy.com and you will get to choose a masterclass as our way saying thank you. That'll be your free gift. All right, so before we get into the episode itself, we just want to give a quick disclaimer. We strive to be as inclusive as possible in all of our content. Inclusivity is one of our core company values, and we also occasionally like to discuss dynamics that occur in specific relationship configurations. So this episode is an example of that. We are going to be talking about male, female relationships in particular, so we just wanted to share that right off the bat. So let's start off by just talking about this stereotype that men are supposed to want it more. Like men are supposed to want sex wherever, whenever. They'll take whatever they can get. And this is something that we just see constantly. Constantly in the media.

Yeah. I mean, I would venture a guess that you see this every day, whether you are aware of it or not, probably multiple times a day. And I think the problem is most of us are. Aren't even aware that we are seeing it. I mean, I think, like, you know, you and I talk about this all the time, so I am. I personally am now much more aware of every time I see that. And it is helpful to be aware of it and to be like, oh, okay, yeah, that's. That's that stereotype thing. Like, I don't have to. I don't have to believe that. I don't have to take that in. But if you aren't aware of it, then it's just like, it's background noise. And it's just like reinforcing these connections in your brain so that when you run into this situation, it's in your own relationship, in your own sex life. Your brain is pre wired to like, oh, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be.

Yeah, I've been noticing it a lot in social media. Like a lot of reels that are just kind of perpetuating these same tired old jokes about like, oh, he can't keep his hands off of her, and she's always having to bat him away and like, get him off of her. I just saw a reel recently. We actually recorded, like, a reaction to it where the woman made this reel that was like, things I do to turn my husband on. But then the things were like, standing, breathing, and you know, he's like, all over her, like, can't get enough of her.

Ha ha, because he always wants it.

Yeah, exactly. And there really is so much socialization that feeds into this as well. Like, men are taught from a very young age that they're supposed to want sex all the time. They're supposed to be. The initiators are supposed to be driving the interactions forward. They're supposed to be, like, trying to get sex as often as they can. And then we women get all these messages that we're supposed to want it too much. Like, we don't want to be labeled as slutty or promiscuous. But then on the other hand, we're also, like, not supposed to not want it. Then we don't want to be a prude or cold like, this very narrow window of how we're allowed to be sexual. And it's mostly, like, in response to a man wanting us, but definitely this, you know, idea just perpetuated over and over again that it's supposed to be the guy who wants it more. So, of course, it's. If that doesn't describe your relationship, that can lead to a tremendous amount of shame for both partners. So we put up question boxes on Instagram asking, like, okay, if you're the man in this situation, what does that make you feel like? If you're the woman, what does that make you feel like? And we'll share those responses in just a minute. But one response that we got that I think is just so illustrative of what we're talking about here was a man said, I, I can't imagine all caps having a lower sex drive than my female partner.

This is just a perfect encapsulation of how deeply ingrained this conditioning or these messages are. It's like, it. You know, that's. It sounds like it's like an identity thing. Like, I can't imagine, like, not being a man. I can't imagine, like, not being whatever, you know, some, like, fundamental part of you. Like, oh, the fact that you have to have a higher sex drive than somebody else. Like. Like, how is that a fundamental part of who you are? But, like, that's how most of us are operating. And, you know, speaking of, you know, the shame that this can lead to for both partners, like, I can totally imagine this conversation happening. You know that there's someone using that same line, like, you know, just, like, amongst a group of guys, like, a bunch of guys being like, yeah, like, well, I couldn't imagine. Couldn't imagine that being, like, in, you know, how my life is. Like, I couldn't imagine having a lower sex drive. Like, you know, I'm imagining a group of dudes and, like, all of them are saying that, and then there's one guy in his head who's like, but, like, that's not really my reality.

Well, I mean, if the stats play out, it's almost half of the guys in that group thinking, that's not my reality.

I know. So, yeah, So, I mean, in reality, probably half of these guys in their head are being like, huh? Like, that's not really my reality. But I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Yeah, I couldn't imagine that.

Yeah.

And then, like, you're making yourself feel even worse about it. Like, you're beating yourself over the head with it. You know it's not true. And yet you're going out and projecting, you know, this, this thing that it is true. And so you end up just coming away feeling ashamed and bad about yourself.

Yeah. And then the same conversations happening amongst women, like a group of girlfriends all together and someone starts joking, like, oh, he can't keep his hands off me. He always wants. He's obsessed with me and half of the other women thinking like, oh God, that's not me. But feeling this pressure to like, to want to be like everyone else. Like, oh, yeah, me too. Like, oh, he's all over me all the time. Like, oh, you know, he's so annoying sometimes. So it just. Yeah, it's such a difficult situation, like, because we don't talk about these kinds of situations. And again, this is so mind boggling. It's like almost half of relationships are this way, but we don't talk about it openly. So that leaves almost half of people just feeling like something is horribly wrong with them or with their relationship. And so it's like, not only are you having to deal with the frustration of having some amount of mismatch in your sex drives, but you're also having to deal with feeling like something's wrong with you. You're abnormal. You're the only one like this. Everybody else is a different way. Like, yeah, just feeling like you're the only couple in the world that has this problem. So let's get into those responses. From the Instagram box, I will share the responses that women shared. So the question was, if you're a woman in a relationship where you want it more than your male partner, like, how does that make you feel? What feelings does that stir up for you? So the most common responses were things like rejected, sad and unwanted, ugly and unworthy. Why doesn't he want to be with me? What's wrong with me? Inadequate, unloved, insecure. I have a hard time believing that it isn't about me or my body or that he isn't attracted to me. And then this was a longer response that we wanted to share. For years. I felt ashamed and angry. I would hear friends share cliches about sex and their horny partners and just want to cry. I felt too ashamed and genuinely too jealous to speak up. My partner and I got into fights about this, but your page has helped me normalize this and give me the confidence to speak up knowing that we are normal. All caps. The more I've talked about our flipped stereotypical dynamic, the more others have opened up and shared the Same. I'm working on the courage to ask friends to stop making generalized comments about men's sex drive. It just isn't true. It's still hard to fully move past the feelings of frustration and shame. I hear friends complain about partners wanting it too much and still find myself wishing I could just give my partner those vibes, that it would make this so much easier.

And similarly, here's how men said they feel something is wrong with me. I feel emasculated, inadequate, flawed, guilt, frustration. I feel like I should have a stronger drive than I do. Like, shit, I feel like I'm rejecting my wife, but I'm not. I just can't find the right words to explain. Frustrating. I feel like I'm letting my partner down the.

I can't find the right words to explain. One really stuck out at me because to me it just symbols. Like, I think there are so many men out there who just. They don't even know how to talk about it or how to make sense of it. Like, it just feels so bewildering for them because it's just not something that gets talked about or acknowledged openly. Like, you just don't even know how to find the right words to describe it.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, you know, all these stereotypes are just build it up to be this very simple binary, when in fact it's not like the simple binary being like, you either want me and therefore you want sex, or you don't want me and you don't want sex. And it's like there are so many other possibilities than just those two. Like, those two are maybe like extreme ends of a spectrum, but there's so many other things going on. And I think it's not only. It's not even just like a 2D spectrum of like, of like, want it, don't want it into me, not into me. There's so many other things. But we just confront, conflate it to these two very simple things. And so then, yeah, of course you end up feeling like, yeah, like there's. There's something else about it. But I don't know how to explain it or I don't know how to explain it in a way that, that she will believe because we've all been conditioned the same way.

Yeah, we'll. We'll get into a lot of those dynamics more in a minute. But I want to talk a little bit about our story because early in our relationship we went through a season where I was the one who had higher desire. Like, you know, so Xander was working long hours at a very stressful job. We just weren't spending that much time together, you know, in general. And sex really decreased. And, you know, for you, you were so stressed and so busy and overwhelmed that it really tanked your drive. Mine was down lower than normal as well, but relative to yours, it was still higher. And I remember during this time, like, I felt so embarrassed, and I, you know, I felt really similar to all the responses that I just read from women. Like, I really internalized it. I felt like, it's my attractiveness, it's my sexiness. Like, you're just not into me. It brought up a lot of fears about the future of our relationship, too. Of, like, you know, I was like, God, what if it's always like this? Like, I think I had a sense at the time that, okay, he's stressed out and he's overwhelmed, and it's just like, it's a general, not great period for. For you. But there was also this fear of, like, yeah, what if it's just always like this? Like, and what does that mean for me to be the higher desire partner always? I had also experienced it in past relationships and felt shame about that, too. So it was just a lot of shame coming up. And I had this extra special fun layer of imposter syndrome. Like, I was studying to become a therapist. I, you know, was already working in the sex therapy field, and I just felt like it was awful. It was like, you know, on the one hand, I knew, like, it's okay if I have a higher desire, but still, I felt like it was not okay to have a higher desire. And I felt like I can't. You know, I know that stuff's getting in the way and blocking both of our desire, but I can't figure out how to fix it. It was just. Yeah, it was a whole thing for me.

It was a whole thing for me, too. It was a whole thing.

Is that the title of this episode? It was a whole thing for me.

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Now I kind of, you know, Vanessa asked me to think about this to sort of summarize my experience. And so I sort of. I sort of laid it out almost like in a timeline of what my experience was going through that at first. So, like, the first thing was that the first thing that came up was me just sort of, like, trying to rationalize it or explain it away. I think the very first time that we kind of, like, vaguely talked about, like, oh, like, oh, like, how much are we wanting sex right now. And like, oh, it's like, remember when we were first dating and, like, how much we were doing it all the time? And, like, obviously it's a bit different now. And I remember. I remember trying to explain it away, kind of like, oh, well, you know, like, you know, when we first started dating, I wasn't getting sex regularly, so it was novel and it was exciting. And now, like, we've moved in together, and now it's like, you know, which.

Made me feel awful because I'm like, oh, my God. Like, so I don't feel special anymore. I'm just like, oh, you can have me whenever you want me. But that's this awful predicament that it puts me in because it's like, oh, well, should I pretend to be more unavailable, but I have the higher desire? So the more I, like, pretend.

Yeah, it's inauthentic.

Yeah. Then it's like, I'm getting it even less. It was. Yeah. It gets into really tricky dynamics.

Yeah. And I mean, like, literally where you jumped in there, you know, for. For me, like, trying to explain that that's, like, the moment where you're like, oh, my God, I just stuck my foot in my mouth. Because, like, now how am I going to be like, oh, well, like, no, it's just easy. I get it whenever I want it. Like, I have access to you. And then it's like, yeah, so it's like you start trying to explain it away that way, and you're already in hot water and you're like, oh, this doesn't feel like a very safe topic of conversation. So, you know, then. Then that started shifting. You know, I started unknowingly making hurtful jokes about Vanessa's desire. Like, you know, like, you know, kind of making fun of, you know, moments where it seemed like, you know, she was horny or something like that. And it wasn't until later that I really started to understand, like, oh. Like, that was my way of deflecting, like, from, you know, it was a way of deflecting it back on her so that I didn't have to feel any of my own insecurity about that or. Or so that I didn't have to say no. It was like, oh, well, let's, like, preempt, you know, any kind of situation where I might have to say no and just kind of be like, oh, God, like, why are you horny right now? That's weird. You know, then. Then it started turning into, like, excuses, like, all the external reasons, like, oh, well, it's work. It's, you know, oh, it's this project. It's, you know, I've had, like, you know, these four projects at one time. They're going to be wrapping up next month.

And, like, I didn't get a good night of sleep.

Yeah. I didn't get good stomach. Yeah. But then it's like all these reasons, like, okay, like, are these reasons ever going to end? Like, yeah, it was those projects, but, you know, this project's wrapped up and then new projects started and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, then that kind of shifts to, like, okay, so maybe these external reasons, Like, I keep having external reasons, and they never fully go away. So then maybe it was like, maybe I should just stick my head in the sand. Like, maybe this will just get better on its own, right? Like, maybe if I can kind of do the bare minimum or, you know, like, okay, well, yeah, we had sex. Like, we had sex last night, so we should be good for a while. And I'll just, you know, hope that next week everything changes magically. I think so many of us live our lives that way in some form. I, for so long had that. You know what? This is just gonna get better. I'm feeling really optimistic about this. I'm not gonna do anything about it, but something is gonna change. And then eventually this started manifesting itself in performance issues for me. You know, it's like this issue is kind of like, you know, banging on my door. And eventually, you know, stick your head in the sand long enough and, like, your body responds. So, like, you know, we would. In a moment when we would be having sex, maybe I would struggle to get an erection or I would lose my E partway through, or I would have premature ejaculation. And then I would start feeling really bad about myself because I'd be like, well, God, like, don't you, you know, like, oh, well, you wanted it. It's been so long. Like, what's wrong with you now? You don't even, like, what's the deal? Like, you don't want it now? And it just felt like this impossible, like, well, like, do I want it? Don't I want it? Like, I did want it, but now, like, my body's telling me I don't want it. What's wrong with me? And then the next time you start thinking about getting intimate, you start thinking about what happened last time, wonder if that's gonna happen again. And then eventually that, for me, just kind of turned into a bit of the bristle reaction for me. Honestly, and just avoiding situations that I worried might turn intimate. I didn't want to have to deal with performance issues. I didn't want to have to make excuses. I didn't want to have to say no. And ultimately that manifested itself in just like really poor self image, you know, of for myself. And I think like, even as our sex life started getting better, that self image kind of self worth stuff stuck with me for a while. And that really stuck with me for a long time. I had to do a lot of personal work to really get to the bottom of that. And, you know, fortunately, I can say now for a number of years, like, I, I do feel really good about myself. I don't. That stuff doesn't stick with me anymore, but it stuck with me for a really long time. And I just think that's what happens when we don't talk about it, when we're not willing to talk about it openly.

Yeah. So the tldr of our story is it was a whole thing.

It was a whole thing. It was a whole. Not a lot of fun.

Yeah. I mean, we could do a whole episode just like talking through that stage of our relationship. But, you know, we wanted to be able to focus on, on this topic in a more broad sense, but also just be able to share with you guys like, this is something we've been through.

Oh yeah, we know what we're talking about.

Like all. We are all too familiar with it. And also, just one quick note, if you haven't heard us talk about what we call the Bristle Reaction, check out episode 99, the Bristle Reaction. What it is, how it happens, and what you can do to fix it. Yeah, that's a very popular episode. Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about diploma. We've been getting so many DMs from you guys about Dipsea, so it seems like you are loving hearing about them as much as we are loving having them as a podcast sponsor. So if you've never heard of Dipsea before, it's an audio app full of hundreds of short, sexy audio stories designed by women for women. So it's just a really fun app to listen to. Like, these stories are very sexy, they're very enjoyable to listen to, and I think it's the perfect podcast sponsor for us because listening to audio stories can be a great way to turn yourself on. So if you feel like you're just missing that spark within yourself, you're just like wondering what happened to your drive. You're not feeling like that vibrant, excited, passionate version of yourself that you used to be, or maybe you feel like you've never been, or maybe you're in a different situation where like, you and your partner want to be intimate later that night and you want to get yourself excited and in the mood. Like, Dipsea is just such a great app to play around with. They bring these scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes, very realistic characters. So there are stories about second chance romances, adventurous vacation flings, and some hot and heavy hookups. They're also a really great just values match for us. They are radically inclusive. They have stories for straight and queer listeners. 56% of the stories are voice acted by people of color. And they are releasing new content every week. So if you find some favorite stories that you like and you just want to play those over and over again, that's cool. But you can also find something new to explore every single week. And they've even been expanding into more like wellnessy types of stories. So you can find soothing sleep stories to lull you to sleep. There are wellness sessions and they're even adding written stories too. So there's just so much to check out. We really love this app. We love hearing your stories of how it's just getting you fired up and feeling sexy and excited again. And the best news is that for listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.compillow so you can check out 30 days of full access for free when you go to D I P s E. A stories.com pillow that's dipsystories.com pillow. Now let's tell you a little bit more about Green Chef. So this past week I really put Green Chef to the test. You might have heard us say before that we get Green Chef every single week. We love using them as our meal prep delivery service. And the way that we break it down is I prep all the ingredients I chop, I like, you know, get everything in order and then Zander cooks especially the meat. I am not good at cooking meat. So you cook all this stuff. I'm like your sous chef. And we love breaking it down this way. It makes it super easy. It makes meals just like come together so quickly. But Xander was out of town.

Uh oh.

And so I had to do all of the Green Chef by myself.

How'd the meat go, babe?

I am very proud to say I killed it.

I'm sure you did. Because Green Chef gives very straightforward, easy to follow instructions right so it couldn't have been that bad.

I followed the instructions. I cooked it all myself, even the meat. I did a great job. I had wonderful meals that I got to enjoy on my own. I will say, usually when you go out of town, my eating is pretty sad. But thanks to Green Chef, I was able to keep eating healthy and eating well. I think my favorite meal that I had was it was like Memphis barbecue chicken salad. So I like cooked the meat and all these spices and barbecue sauce. There were some pecans in there, some tomatoes. It was really, really good. And again, very easy to put together someone like me who's not a great chef on my own. I was able to to put together a delicious meal.

Yeah, I'm jealous. Sounds like you ate a lot better than I did on my trip.

I probably did, actually. So we really enjoy cooking with Green Chef. They are the number one meal kit for eating clean. And you can go to greenchef.com 60pillow and use code 60pillow to get 60% off plus free shipping. You can kickstart your clean eating routine this September with 80 plus weekly options featuring nutritionist approved and foodie approved recipes. Choose from eight meal preferences including new quick and easy calorie, smart delicious discoveries and plant based options. Green Chef delivers everything you need to eat clean the easy way. Go to greenchef.com 60pillow and use code 60pillow to get 60% off plus free shipping. Okay, so next, let's talk about the ways we make it worse.

So we tend to do that most of us, unfortunately, despite good intentions. I think most of us unknowingly make these situations way harder on ourselves and way worse for ourselves.

So the first way that we make it worse is by not talking about it.

Don't stick your head in the sand. Don't do what I did.

You know, if you're, if you're not talking about it, it just becomes this elephant in the room and it becomes more and more awkward because you both know what's going on.

You're not fooling anyone.

You're not fooling anybody. Not talking about it is never the solution to anything in life. It's like you're not hiding, you're not fooling anybody. You both know what's going on. So not talking about it just makes it even weirder, even more awkward, even more difficult to overcome. Another way we make it worse is by making jokes. And I put that in little air quotes as I said it. Trying to, like, use humor or trying to deflect to, you know, the situation. So like, women will make jokes about their partner being like, kind of wimpy or even make jokes about him being gay. That's something that I heard a lot as a sex therapist. And just to be totally clear, like, we do not think there's anything wrong with being gay. We do not like seeing like, being gay being used as like an insult to people. But, you know, a lot of women were like, oh, well, if he's not like, like, you know, trying to rip my clothes off every moment of the day, then maybe that means he's secretly gay. And then men would make jokes about like, oh, well, she's like a guy in the bedroom or that kind of thing. So it's like just any sort of joking, any sort of mean spirited joking. Like, obviously this is not making it any better, it's making it way worse.

Yeah. And then like I was just saying, you know, from my experience, this is something I did. But. And a lot of men do this too is turning it around on their partners. Because here's what happens. Like, guys can often identify how it makes them feel knowing that, you know, their sex drive is not seeming as high as their partner's. Like, you know, like, all the things that we read, like, I feel like shit, I feel emasculate. I feel like something is wrong with me. But the thing is, is they struggle to sit with or to process those emotions. I know that that was how it was for me. I could very quickly tell you, yeah, I don't like this, this sucks. But it was that discomfort of like, I don't know how to like sit here dealing with this because it's not going to go away immediately. And so instead of, you know, instead of processing those emotions or talking about those emotions, they lash out at their partner instead. Like, why, why are you so horny? Like, what's wrong with you? Like, why are you, why are you acting like such a guy? And that just further reinforces to the partner that something is wrong with her.

Another thing that women often do is trying to repress their own desire. And this is something that I experienced myself too during that time. But I wanted to read a quote that somebody sent in over Instagram. One woman said in response to my partner's low sex drive, I learned to repress mine. So it's not such a big discrepancy. I was rejected so much that I stopped initiating altogether. I just wait for him to want sex. He blames low T and being old and tired and makes it seem like I'm ridiculous for wanting it all the time.

Huh? So, yes, the. The external excuses and then. And then, yeah, there's a lot about it.

There's a lot wrapped up in that one story. But I think that, yeah, what I was really paying attention to is the, like, yeah, I learned to repress minds so that it's not such a big discrepancy. I shut it down. I wait for him to initiate. You know, it's just. Yeah. Like, really cutting yourself off from a really wonderful and beautiful part of who you are. Like, our sex drives are such a great part of our identities, you know, that to feel desire, to want to connect with another person, like, that's a beautiful thing. And to try to shut that off or pretend it doesn't exist or ignore it or deny it, like. Like, that is such a cruel thing to do to yourself.

Yeah. I mean, just think about, like, any other key part of who you are and, like, imagine repressing or just like, not allowing anyone to see or acknowledge another fundamental part of who you are. Like, that's just. That that's hard.

And similarly, a lot of women will withhold initiation. And this is something I also did at the time as well.

Hey, let's turn it into a game. I'll show. Let me show you what this is like.

Like, it's like testing your partner. Like, okay, well, if I don't initiate, how long will he go until he initiates it? And it just turns into this awful, awful game where, again, coupled with the not talking about it, but you both know what's going on. Like, it's just terrible. So, yeah, withholding is never the solution. And again, I understand the instinct to do it. It's like initiating sex is wildly vulnerable. That's why we created a whole course all about this. But you. So it's natural to want to protect yourself from that vulnerability and just say, like, well, you know, I don't want to do it. And especially if you feel like there's a high likelihood I'm going to get turned down because my partner doesn't want it as much as I do. Like, of course it makes sense to want to protect yourself in that way. But again, it, like, it turns into you denying a part of yourself, you denying these, like, really beautiful, normal, natural desires for connection that you have, and it turns into like. Like, yeah, this. This really gross game that you end up playing with your partner that doesn't feel good for either of you. So let's talk about the reality. The reality of sex drives in relationships. The most important thing that we want you to get from this entire episode is that it is normal for the woman to want it more. I hope that at least that 45% statistic helps you realize you are not alone. This is so much more common than you think. But I also really want you to understand that it's totally normal. There's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with him. There's nothing wrong with the relationship if she's the one who wants it more. So here's the thing about sex drive is that in every relationship, couples are going to have mismatched sex drives. Like, it would be too weird of a coincidence that. That every single time one of you wanted sex, the other magically wanted sex in that exact same moment. You guys wanted the same kind of sex in that exact same moment. Like, it's just not realistic. And I know we always go to the food comparisons, but they're just always so good. Like, you and your partner don't always want the exact same food all the time. Right. And, like, we don't get ourselves worked up about, like, oh, are we incompatible? Like, I wanted Italian and he wanted sushi. Like, I really want to encourage people to think of sex drive in the same way. Like, we feel desire for sex just like we feel desire for food in different moments in different ways. And that's okay. And if we dig into this a little bit more, like, sex drives are also relative. So I think we can get ourselves into trouble putting labels on ourselves, like, oh, he's the higher desire partner, or, she's the higher desire partner, because it's relative to the specific relationship that you're in. So you could be the higher desire partner in one relationship, but the lower desire partner in another. So there is no, like, right or wrong when it comes to sex drive. And there's no, like, scale. Like, there's no, like, oh, I have an eight sex drive, and he has a four sex drive. It's like, it's so relative from relationship to relationship and even from day to day. Like, there might be days where your sex drive feels like. Like it's through the roof. And then there are days where you're like, huh, Normally I'm pretty high desire, but, like, you could not pay me to have sex today.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people try to conceptualize it in terms of, like, oh, how often? Like, how many times a week do you want to have sex? And it's like, yeah, but, like, that's not that helpful. Especially, like, at the beginning of a relationship, because, like, what does that actually. What does that actually mean? Like, there's so many other factors that go into it. And also, like, if you've been in a number of relationships, like, I would. I would venture a guess that, like, you know, you tend to kind of fall into an equilibrium with every partner. And it's like, you know, maybe with one person, you wanted it every night of the week, and with another person, you wanted it twice a week, or, you know, whatever. I'm just throwing out random numbers. So it's like, yeah, I think if trying to reduce it down to just a number isn't very helpful, then it actually feels kind of impersonal because it's like, oh, well, he said he wants it it three times a week. We've only done it twice this week. There's only one more day left. We. We better do it or he's gonna be unhappy.

Yeah, exactly. And also, like, sex drives fluctuate from day to day. Like, I just gave that example. But also, like, throughout different seasons in your relationship. So obviously, we shared about this season where I was the higher desire partner, but we've also had plenty of seasons where Xander was the higher desire partner and plenty of seasons where it felt like our sex drives were, like, really on the same page. So I just think, like, overall, be careful about the language that you're using to describe it. Like, even if you're just thinking about it on your own, like, don't label yourself the higher desire partner. Don't say things like, I always want it more. Because it just. It changes so much. It's so relative. Like, we need to see it as being more fluid and flexible. Otherwise, we're going to lock ourselves into these roles.

Yeah. I mean, I can speak from experience there and that. Yeah. I think, you know, that. That did a lot of damage to me for a long time. You know, I really just. I characterized myself because that's how I thought of it. That's how we talked about it together. You know, this was before we really knew any better. But, yeah, I just felt, yeah, I have a low sex drive. I'm the lower sex drive partner. And it felt in those moments, you know, I think even when we started talking about it with some more nuance and, you know, you started talking about, like, you know, the relativity stuff, there was a part of me that was like, kind of like mean voice in my head, like, all right, Xander, like, let's be real. Like, you're never actually going to feel like that. Right. How could this. How could this ever change?

Yeah.

And, yeah, I mean, it wasn't until I did a lot of work to really, you know, to learn how to kind of accept that, you know, there's that, whatever, that malicious voice there, I don't have to listen to it. And then it's like, yeah, one day you kind of wake up and you're like, oh, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe the tables have kind of turned. But it wasn't until I was able to stop listening to that that I had any chance of breaking out of that.

So we also want to talk about sex drive and attraction. I think especially when we're in a season of a relationship where it feels like our sex drives are mismatched or there's some sort of conflict around our levels of desire. Like it's very easy to boil sex drive down into thinking that it's just about attraction. And again, this is yet another dynamic that I did myself. I get. It's like, it's just such an easy path to thinking and especially if you're a woman, it's such an easy path to like, he doesn't want to have sex with me. That means he's not attracted to me. Like, he doesn't think I'm sexy, He thinks I've gained weight. He doesn't like the rolls that I have on my body. He doesn't like the way my genitals look or smell or taste. Like we go straight into that area. But it's just not helpful. So first of all, it's not true. Like I can tell you as a sex therapist, like, your partner's desire and your desire, they are wrapped up in so many other dynamics than just attraction. Like, of course attraction feeds into desire, but especially in long term relationships, like it plays a much smaller role than most people realize. So your sex drive is going to be and your partner's sex drive, they're going to be affected by things like their stress level, their mental health, medical conditions, medications. There can also be a lot of relationship dynamics like lack of emotional connection, maybe not liking the way that sex gets initiated, not feeling very much pleasure during sex. Okay, so not only is it just not true that it's not about just attraction, but when you turn it into just attraction, that puts so much pressure on your partner's shoulders because now he's in a position where he's feeling guilty and self conscious and broken because he's not feeling very much desire. And he's also feeling like he has to prove to you how attractive you are with his desire. So it's like his desire, it's not even about him anymore. It's about proving something to you. And that dynamic of, like, men having to prove attractiveness to women, like, that's a struggle for men, even if we take this whole sex drive thing out of it. Like, this is. Is one of the most common dynamics that comes up in male female relationships where women, like, we're so freaking hard on ourselves and we've been socialized to be that way. It's not our fault, but we're always feeling self conscious of, like, I've gained weight. I don't look good. My stomach is making little rolls when I twist in that position. It's weird. My genitals smell bad, they taste bad. And so men are already, like, they have to spend a lot of time and energy, like, trying to convince us that we're attractive, which I think is like a really hard thing to do, you know, just for a man in general. But then it's like, yeah, if you add that extra layer of, like, now I have to prove it to you with my desire or with my erection that I'm attracted to you. And, and there's even this dynamic of, like, so many of us women, we fight off men's attempts to, like, assure us that we're attractive. Like, this is so freaking. He's like, you're. You're so sexy. I'm so attracted to you.

Stop saying that. Don't say that.

No, I'm not. I look awful today. I've gained 20 pounds. Don't say that. You know, so it's, it's so much. It's like so much pressure to put on a man's shoulders. So long story short, I know I got. I'm getting a little hyped up about that because I, you know, she is.

I like it.

I feel like. And again, it's because I've done this myself too. I, you know, I've. I've been on the other end of it. I get the, like, the self consciousness that comes up. I get the, like, we just want that reassurance. But I promise you, it's not helpful. It's not working. And it's putting so much more pressure on your partner's shoulders. So don't turn it into this matter of just attractiveness. Don't ask him, like, oh, you're not attracted to me anymore. Oh, you've noticed how much my body has changed. You don't like my mom bod. Like, you're not into me. Like, don't turn it into that. It's not gonna help either. Of you, I promise. Okay, deep breath. Vanessa.

Let's talk over.

Let's talk about. Let's talk about what to do. We're obviously not going to just, like, leave you hanging here, like, wondering what to do. So our first tip is going to be no big surprise to anyone. Talk about it. You have to talk about it. Get that elephant out of the room. Like, you both know what's going on. Just acknowledge what's going on. So I think listening to this episode together can be a great starting point. Like, listen to this together. Pause it at certain points, talk about, like, do you agree? Do you disagree? What do you think about what they just said? Like, use this podcast as a conversation opener with your partner. And I really think that there's a great opportunity here for the two of you to connect over the bullshit gender socialization that we all receive. So as the woman, you can lead with, like, you know, I'm realizing, like, I got so much shitty socialization about, like, I'm not supposed to feel desire and I'm supposed to, you know, let you lead and take the back. Back seat. And I'm just realizing, like, how much that's hurt me. Or maybe it's more like the body confidence stuff for you. Like, you know, I'm realizing, like, I've been socialized to think that my worth as a human being lies in how attractive I am to you, and it, you know, puts all this pressure unfairly on both of us. So just, like, leading with that and then allowing your partner to share, like, if you can, if. And this might be tricky, like, he might have a hard time opening up and saying, like. Like, yeah, I. I feel, like, angry or upset that I've been given all this socialization that, like, I should want sex all the time. Like, that might be tricky to get him to open up, but there is such an opportunity here for you both to say, like, yeah, like, we're dealing with just such crappy stereotypes and socialization, and this really sucks that it's invading our relationship and making us both feel bad about ourselves.

Yeah, I mean, I think that there. If you can get there, there's a huge opportunity to bond over that and even to turn it into a bit of a fun. Or maybe not fun, but, like, an interesting game. I alluded to this earlier on of just, like, you know, in all the moments throughout the day when you kind of catch one of those stereotypes getting slid in and something you read or something you hear of just, like, calling that out together. Like, oh, gender. Yeah, bullshit, bullshit gender stereotype. You know, don't do it like, oh. You know, you hear someone referring to. Referring to like, oh, men always want it more. Like, don't say like, oh, not for us. I think it's just calling out like, oh, bullshit. Gender stereotype or something, something like that. So that it's. So it's like you're each calling bullshit on it. You're not. You're not calling attention to like, oh, but we don't look like that. Because I think that can kind of like, in a backhanded way, especially for the guy. He might feel like, oh, but I just want it to be the way it's supposed to be. And what she's really saying is that if I just could, like, flip it around, then everything would be okay. Okay.

So, yeah, so if you're the woman, like, don't get discouraged if you try to talk about this with him and he's, like, initially reluctant or shut down or, like, mumbling.

I don't know. Give him a number of tries.

Give him some time. But I think another thing that you. Another, like, pathway in or another way to try to open the conversation could be to talk about what sex means to you. So I think one thing that happens with so many of us is we get. Get stuck talking about sex as just a number, like we were talking about earlier, like, oh, we're supposed to have it three times a week. Or we think about sex just being, like, purely about physical pleasure. But the reality is that there's a deeply emotional aspect to sex as well. And so if you go in with your partner and you're just talking about, like, oh, well, you. You only want it once a week, and I'm wanting it three times a week, like, that's just gonna. That conversation's gonna get nowhere. But if you can talk to your partner about, like, what does sexual sex feel like for you? What is the emotion that comes up for you? What is it like before, during, and after sex? So being able to share with him things like, you know, I feel so close to you, or I love that sex is something that only you and me get to share with each other. Or I love how goofy and silly and playful we are during sex. Like, talking about it more in that emotional sense is going to be such a better conversation.

So I think it should be pretty clear by now from everything that we've said that, you know, the solution to this is, is not for her to find a way to lower her sex drive to match or get lower than his, you know.

Well, actually, I want to say that, because we get that question often, like, there is no way to lower your.

Sex drive, I guess, outside of the repression thing. But it's like, you know, that's gonna. It's gonna come out somewhere else.

There's no healthy way. There we go. There's no healthy way to lower your sex drive.

Drive.

There are healthy ways to increase your sex drive, though.

And if he wants to have a higher sex drive, there are things that he can do. But the key word here is like, if he wants to. Like, if. If he's happy with where things are at, he doesn't have to increase his sex drive. It's not like Vanessa was saying, you know, it's not like, oh, well, you need to lower your sex drive or you need to increase your sex drive, because the reality is, like, our sex drive. Well, one, like, we can't ever get to this perfect state where our sex drives are totally even, but at the same time, like, our sex drives are also not fixed. Like, it's not just, like, stuck wherever it is. Like, you know, we do. We can do things to work on it, and we're here to normalize. Working on your sex drive. And, you know, one of the things that you could listen to if you want to work on your sex drive is episode 76, how much do you really want it? The sex drive episode.

So, like I was saying, like, there is no healthy way to decrease your desire, but she can find other outlets for her desire, namely masturbation. Like, I think masturbation is just such an underlooked tool for mismatched sex drives. Like, of course, when we are wanting intimacy, like, we're also wanting closeness and, like, emotional intimacy as well. So you're not going to be able to have the exact experience that you would be able to have with your partner on your own. But if it is a situation of, like, yeah, I'm just. Just horny, I need a release sometimes. And, like, we're not, you know, fully on the same page. Like, masturbation is the best way to even out those mismatches in your sex drive.

Yeah, I mean, and hopefully you can get that just, you know, physical intimacy or emotional closeness in other ways that doesn't necessarily have to always be sex. Now, I think that's a totally separate issue if what you're running into is, like, one partner doesn't want, you know, enough emotional closeness. And I think that's a topic that is a. That is a whole separate episode. That's a whole, whole thing. But, yeah, it's like, if you can have that emotional closeness, you know, hopefully, you know, you can kind of, you know, ease some of that, I don't know, physical pressure, so to speak, with the masturbation. And another vastly underlooked technique for. For balancing the scales a little bit is working on improving your initiation. I think this could be for either the partner who, you know, identifies currently as the higher or the lower desire partner. I think that so often we initiate in these roundabout ways, these unclear ways, or we avoid it all together. And that just exacerbates the issue of feeling like one person has a different drive than the other. Because it's like, you know, in the times when you do want it, you don't know how to initiate, or you don't initiate, or you don't do it in the right way, and it's like you're shooting yourself in the foot or you're not even doing it at all when you do want it. And then maybe even the person with the lower sex drive struggles to initiate, and you're missing, you know, opportunities to have more sex with them, to actually have a different experience than just feeling like you're at opposite ends of the sex drive scale.

And I think this is especially important for women. Like, as women, we do not get taught how to initiate. We're not supposed to initiate. Like, the guy is supposed to be the one doing it all the time.

So I can't say men are taught. Taught that well.

Yeah, I know, to be fair, but, like, yeah, there's just all this belief that we have that, like, we should never have to be the ones to do it. And so we don't do it, we avoid it, or we don't know how to do it. So we do it in these, like, strange or awkward ways. So there's so much opportunity here to learn how to initiate, to learn how to do it in ways that your partner's really gonna. Like, that's gonna get them excited about being intimate. Like. Like, we've found that so many times when a couple says that they have mismatched sex drives, actually what the problem is is that they're not initiating properly. So when you learn better initiation, it actually can solve a lot of the mismatches.

Oh, but where do you improve your initiation? That would be our course, the art of initiation.

Of course we have a course for this.

Of course we have a course. Yeah. The art of initiation is it helps you and your partner finally understand what you both need to feel enthusiastic about intimacy. And then once you understand that, how to do it in a way so that you both feel that enthusiasm, you both feel that connection and that excitement. So if you want to check that out, it is@vmtherapy.com initiation. We're also going to put a link in the show notes. We've gotten so much incredible feedback on this course, especially from women who identify as wanting sex more. Because, like Vanessa was saying, women typically are socialized to not initiate or feel uncomfortable with rejection or whatever it is. And we break all that down in this course and show you how initiation doesn't have to be this big, scary thing, especially if you go through our process of figuring out exactly what the best ways to initiate are in your relationship.

And our final tip for you here is, is to honor your sex drive. We really hope that we've just driven home the point that there is no right or wrong sex drive. Nothing is wrong with you. Nothing is abnormal or broken with you. Whether you're the partner who wants it more, the partner who wants it less, whether you think of yourself as the partner who wants it more, or as the partner who wants it less. Remember, those labels are not super helpful. But yeah, we just want you to acknowledge that, like, like, your sex drive is your sex drive. And yes, it's going to be fluctuating. It's going to change. It's going to evolve. It's not this fixed number. But don't pressure yourself or, like, feel like anything is wrong with you. Like, if you just naturally have a higher desire overall in most seasons of life than your partner does as a woman, like, that's okay. It's normal. It's fine.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about unwanted touch in relationships.