Episode 127: Ask Us Anything: Spilling Our Business Secrets

I just want to be super clear. This is not like in like day to day stuff. Like we're having a team meeting and then all of a sudden Xander and Vanessa have to go run off like in the middle of the podcast.

We're professionals.

Yes, we are professionals. This only happens when it is just the two of us and just the two of us talking about certain things. And sometimes it's like, oh, that sounds exciting.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude.

We share the ups and downs in.

Our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

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We are returning to, I think the most popular series that we've ever had on the podcast.

Yeah, definitely.

Which is our Ask us anything series. So we do ask us anything on Instagram every Sunday.

Because we do.

It's kind of shocking that this is also one of our most popular series on the podcast as well.

Well, I mean, there are a lot of questions. There are a lot of questions. There's a lot of questions that can be asked. There are a lot of questions that are asked and there's a limited amount of time that we are able to answer them over the weekend. Like, I mean, we get thousands and thousands of questions. So, you know, I think people always appreciate ask us anything and there's always more things that we can answer.

I think this is number four of this series, but we're focusing today specifically on questions about our business.

Getting down to business.

Getting down to business. Xander is already wanting that to be the title of this episode. Biznass. Yes, yes. Biz Nas. We're talking about Our business.

But I mean, include. We have a sex business, basically. So, you know, there's.

It's a little more interesting.

It's a little more. It's not just like, okay, how do you do your marketing? It's, you know, I don't know, how do you. How do you get freaky when you talk about getting freaky? Okay, that didn't come out right.

We did have some questions about that, actually. Not how do you. But do you.

No, not how do you. But, you know, I mean, there is definitely some overlap between the nasty and the biz.

Okay, here's the thing, though, is that we didn't want this to be like a dry business episode. Like, we. We actually do have a question about marketing. I'm not sure if we'll get to it or not.

Oh, shit.

But we didn't want it to just be like, dry, boring questions about, like, you know, what's your 401k structure? And, like, are you an S Corp or an. You know, it's just like, no, we want this to be interesting. We wanted to make an episode that you guys would actually want to listen to. So when we went over to Instagram to put up the question box, said, like, ask us some questions about our business that you don't think we would answer. Like, we want this to be a spicy episode. Spicy business episode.

You put the challenge out there.

I did, I did. There were still a lot of, like, tell us about your marketing calendar stuff. But we did get some very spicy questions. And I actually, like, I really wanted to challenge us to answer some of the ones that even made us feel a little uncomfortable. So there are some quite uncomfortable questions in this little batch here.

Yeah. You looking forward to that?

I am. I am a little. I wouldn't say nervous, but, like, I'm a little, you know, curious about how this is going to go. Okay, so we're. We're pushing our comfort zone a little bit. We are talking about topics like, if we ever get turned on while working, have we ever regretted talking about something publicly? And do we ever have inadequacy issues or imposter syndrome?

But first, per usual, we are talking about our review of the week, helping to stop the internal monologue. I am my own worst enemy when it comes to overthinking, inventing crazy scenarios, and not taking the initiative when I should have. The advice and information shared by Vanessa and Xander has brought on many aha moments and different points of views. Lately, I find myself stopping my mind spiral of thoughts which are hardly ever correct. But I just can't help myself to have a logical scenario for the current situation. More often than not, when we get to talking about it, there's a logical explanation for how it went down or why something didn't happen. I attribute this new approach to both of your advice and points of view. Thank you for giving me a new look on life and helping me to approach my partner with more understanding and less internal crazy stories.

Oh, my God. We've all been there, right?

Oh, yeah.

Crazy stories that we get in our heads.

Yeah. Or like, you said this, so you must have really meant that. Or you did this and therefore it means that.

Oh, yeah.

It's like, wait, where did that come from?

Who said that?

No one said that.

Thank you so much for this review. Reviews really do make such a huge impact in helping the podcast grow. They help the podcast get shown to more new people, help us get, like, featured on Spotify and Apple podcasts. So we do this review of the week with a giveaway every week as our way of saying thank you for taking 60 seconds to leave a review. So here's how you do it. You go over to Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom of the main Pillow Talks page, and you'll see the review section there. So that's the only place where you can leave reviews. There's like a little box that you can just type it right in. But if you're on Spotify, you can also, like, rate it. Also follow the podcast wherever you listen to. Like, just following it really does make a big difference. But on Apple is where we do the review of the week, because that's the only place where you can actually, like, write in a review. So write your review there every week going forward, you are automatically entered into our giveaway. And if you hear review read on the podcast and you can email us@infovm therapy.com let us know the username that you left your review under, and you will get to pick your choice of a masterclass. Absolutely. For free, as our gift to you. All right, so let's jump into the questions.

Yeah, Xander, bring the heat.

I'm hitting you with the first one. And we also have not talked about these questions with each other. We talked about, like, we put them into our little document that we're reading over here, but we haven't talked about our answers. So I just think it's more fun when we get to answer off the cuff.

Let's see what happens.

All right, Xander, do you have inadequacy issues? Given that I am a Trained professional. And you aren't.

First of all, I love how this person didn't ask, like, does Xander feel a certain way about this? And jump straight to inadequacy issues. But I'll be honest here. I don't anymore, But I definitely did. I definitely did early on and for a very long time. We've talked about this a lot before, so I won't go into it in too much detail. But early on, like, well, first of all, I watched Vanessa build this business from scratch. I watched. And before that, I watched Vanessa, you know, go to grad school to become a therapist, to get licensed, to get her MFT license in California, do all of these clinical hours in order to get that license and pass the test. Like, it was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. And, I mean, I was very proud of her. And I remember also thinking and just internally, like, wow, I could never do something like that. It's. It's too much for me. So when, you know, fast forward a couple of years when Vanessa is asking if I want to get more involved in our business, and, you know, I was. I was running kind of the operations of the business, and she's asking me, you know, do you want to be doing more content with me? My initial thought is, like, hell, no. Like, I am totally inadequate. Like, I can't do that. I haven't done all the years and years and years of stuff that you have done. And so, yeah, I very much did feel inadequate. I felt like Vanessa's the expert, and I'm not. However, I am an expert at being a regular dude who's a husband, who's a man, who's, you know, been married for a number of years now, who's had, you know, like, my own issues in our marriage. And so, you know, I. I did come to realize that, you know, I'm quite adequate at playing the role that I play here. And it feels. It feels really good to be able to be like, yeah, no, I deserve to be here. I deserve to be talking about this stuff. And. And I think I've also picked up a lot of just kind of sex therapy knowledge along the way by being your husband. We talk about this stuff all the time. So, you know, I've. I've. I've learned by osmosis. And, you know, I think there is something to it. It's like, you don't have to be an expert to give your opinion on something or to give your advice on something. I'm not telling people. You have to do this and listen to me, because I'm an expert. I'm like, no. Like, you can listen to Vanessa because she's an expert, but you can listen to me because I'm hopefully a regular, somewhat relatable human being that, you know, has my own experience, and I've also heard from a lot of other people. So nowadays, I feel very adequate, and I like it.

Well, and I think it's also important that, like, we're not saying that you're a sex therapist or a marriage therapist or anything like that.

I'm none of those things.

Yeah.

Let me state for the record.

And, like, I don't think that you would do this without me either. Like, the whole point is, I'm the sex therapist. I have the background in training. You're the regular dude. That's our whole shtick. And, like, you know, we're able to talk about our relationships and our experiences, but we're not pretending that you're something that you're not.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely not. Like, if Vanessa, like, disappeared tomorrow, I. I would not be continuing this business on, like, okay, cool. I'm just gonna step into Vanessa's shoes. Like, I'm. I. I think I'm an expert now because I've, like, been around her for a while. Like, I would not feel comfortable doing that.

What would you do if I disappeared tomorrow?

That is not something that I enjoy thinking about.

That was a question that we got, and I took it out because I knew you weren't gonna want it.

Thanks. I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I mean, I would mourn for a very, very long time, and then I would figure it out.

Okay, this is getting sad.

Yeah. This is getting saddle.

Let's continue on. This is exactly why I took the question out.

All right, Vanessa, so why the hell do you think you're qualified to give advice to par you choose to be child free.

There we go. We got the spicy questions. Okay, so who do you think you are? So I think that I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. And we did talk about this a couple of weeks ago with our episode about, like, parents making the time for sex and intimacy. So definitely go back and listen to that episode if you hadn't haven't. Cause that was a good one. But what I said back then was, you know, this is my training. Like, I've spent years and years and years, thousands of hours, you know, training in helping support families, working with children, all of that. And I'm very careful to say, like, training is not the same thing as actual experience. I will never have that experience of being a parent. But I also, like both of us, really work from a place of humility and a respect for different experiences. And I think even if we were parents, I would never go into this business saying, like, well, because this is what we do as parents, so this is what you should do. Or, you know, I wouldn't ever assume to know what it's like for another parent raising their child in their unique family. Even if I have my own child?

Yeah. I mean, I think in, in a way, in a kind of weird backwards sort of way. Like, because we don't have kids, we are much less biased because I think if we did have kids, you know, we would, we would have kind of like our, like n equals 1.

Yeah, this is one scenario.

This is our one observation is what we have experienced with our kid or with our kids. And you know, that is not going to work for the vast majority of people. If you go talk to 10 parents about how they do X, Y or Z, you're going to get like 10 very different responses and very different approaches. And so I could imagine that if we came at this more, you know, instead of it being like, oh, like, I'm a therapist, it was like, oh, we're, we're parents and we are in a successful relationship and let us, let us be the experts. Because of that, we would be the experts with our kind of n equals 1. Our like one observation of experience, which would be our family. And the reality is, is that, you know, that would be a very biased way of looking at it. This is what worked for us and therefore it should work for you. Instead we look at, well, what is working for tens and tens of thousands of parents that we interact with, you know, on Instagram, you know, through our courses, through all of that, you know, people that you've seen one on one clients that you've had in the past.

Ye.

So it's like, you know, we are trying to like, synthesize all this information of like, okay, what is, what is actually working for most people.

Yeah, if I was not a therapist, like, we would not be talking about this at all. Like, this would just be, you know, a topic that we would not cover. But it's just because I have that, you know, that clinical training and experience also, I think, like, give advice. Like, we share a lot of tips with our community. But again, it's like, it's from this place of humility and of respect for experiences. Like, we do not tell people like, you have to do this. Everybody has to do that. You know, like, we're like, hey, we're offering a buffet to you. These are a lot of options. Your family, your relationship, your kids, your situation is unique. Nothing is gonna work for everybody. So you pick and choose the things that sound interesting to you and you try them out. But like, I'm never gonna tell people, like, everybody needs to do this. And then finally, the last thing I'll say about this is I think it's important for us to recognize that most people who have training or expertise in a topic don't have personal experience with it.

Yep.

You know, I, when I was working with clients one on one, I worked with thousands of men. I've never had a penis. I don't know what it's like to have performance anxiety. But I have training and experience and therefore can work with men. Right. So I've worked with tons of people whose experiences I never shared. And that, you know, that was fine. Like, I didn't need to have that experience.

Yeah. I mean, if, if you go see like a fertility specialist, for example, it is likely that they are going to be a doctor. It is unlikely that they have had that struggle themselves. If you go see a psychiatrist for any kind of mental health condition, it's very unlikely that your psychiatrist also has that same mental health condition. You know, like, I had a surgery in 2015 removing a, what turned out to be a non cancerous growth from my thigh. It was a really large surgery. It was pretty gnarly. And you know, I went to a really, really good surgeon who did that. And he's never had that operation done on himself yet. He's done it on tons and tons and tons of patients. And therefore, you know, through talking with all those patients and seeing what, you know, what works, that's how he has refined his approach to be so successful. So I think it is more about who you see and who you talk to than what you have experience. Obviously, experience is also important. But like, we get that experience through working with people.

So if you only want to work with people who have had the same kinds of experiences that you do, that is absolutely a choice that you get to make. And we may not be the people to like, learn from. You may not want to buy our courses that are specifically like targeted towards parents, and that's perfectly fine. That's the choice that you get to make. But yeah, I think it's just also important on the other side of it to recognize that most people don't have personal experience with the Thing that they might be coaching about, teaching about, you know, whatever it is. Okay, let's move on to the next question. This one was actually kind of a series of questions that I grouped in together because they were about the same theme. So, Xander, I'm going to ask you the first two, and then maybe I'll tackle the third one.

Okay?

Okay. Has there ever been a topic that. That you said we're not going there to? How do you decide where the line is when sharing about your sex life is part of the job?

All right, first of all, the answer in general to this question is yes. There are plenty of topics where we collectively have decided we're not going there. We also have an arrangement where if one of us feels uncomfortable with something that the other person is saying or, you know, we start answering a question, and then all of a sudden it's like, ooh, upon hearing that, I don't really love it. Like, we each have veto power over anything.

No questions asked.

Yeah, no questions asked. So that's a really important thing for us. You know? I mean, so just to give a couple examples, like, we do not give detailed accounts of, like, just what, like, sexual experiences that we have. Sometimes we share sometimes. If we decide. Yeah, if we decide to. But, like, we're never going to give.

You a breakdown of, like, okay, guys.

Last night, here's what happened. Like, it was. It was pretty good for me, but it was bad for him. Like, yeah, that's, like. That is not something that we really want to do. We also don't talk about how often we have sex.

That's the big one.

Yeah, that's a really big one. We decided really early on that we didn't want to do that because it's so easy to get fixated on the numbers. And even if we were super, super.

Clear of, like, hey, guys, this is what we do. This works for us.

This is not what you should do. Like, you should find a frequency that works really well for you, because, you know, what we find from other people is that it's not actually about the frequency. It's about the quality. It's about finding that balance that feels really good for you. Even if we did all that really, really well, it would still be so easy to be like, okay, well, Vanessa and Xander do it two times a week, or, Vanessa and Xander do it every day. And therefore, that must be the right number because they look really happy, and I want to be happy. Like, and so we just. We don't do that. That doesn't feel good for Us. And also, like, our frequency is gonna change over time. It changes, like, week to week anyway.

It's the wrong question to ask. Like, it's the wrong question to focus on. Yeah.

And then. Yeah, like, how do we decide where the line is? I mean, I think that we've had a number of conversations kind of about, like, what feels like inbounds and not inbounds for us, but in general, we don't look at it like our job is to share everything about our life or about our sex life. Like, we actually. I mean, initially, the. You know, the way that the business looks. Yeah. When it was just you, it was like you weren't really sharing anything. And that was sort of a, like, more of like a therapist value. Like, as a therapist, you are trained. It's to. To not be sharing stuff about yourself. You are. You know, you're kind of meant to be like a mirror to reflect back to your client. Right. And so. But, you know, it wasn't until I started getting a little more involved that we started sharing more and more. And it was like. Like, hey, you know, it feels helpful.

For us to be able to share.

Certain stories or certain anecdotes or certain experiences with people because it helps them relate or to feel not alone. But it's not about, like, you know, this voyeuristic thing of, like, oh, look at every single detail of our life. That's not what we're here for. We don't enjoy doing that. We don't do that. Yeah. So, yeah, for us, it's like, the value is. Is we want to be able to share with, you know, stuff that feels comfortable to us, with people, so that you can relate to us, so that you can be like, oh, yeah, they are normal people. They have normal struggles, just like me and you. But, you know, not to be, like, just baring every single thing.

Well, here's one good, like, practical example. Like, if you and I get into a conflict, we might choose to share it later on on Instagram of like, hey, here's what the argument was. Here's how we worked on it. Here's some communication tips. But we are never gonna share something in real life. Like, I'm never gonna go onto Instagram and be like, I am pissed at Xander right now. Listen to what he did. Like, I'm so upset. Like, we would never do that. Right? So it's like, you're getting a filtered look at our lives, because we can only. Like, we're only gonna share things after the fact. Like, we've wrapped it up, you know.

Yeah, you're getting the hindsight 2020 version.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then the other part of this question was, has there ever been something you regretted sharing? Definitely the answer is yes, but they're kind of like a lot of different answers here.

Shades of regret.

Shades of regret. I've definitely. We've both experienced a lot of vulnerability hangovers. Like sharing something and then realizing like, oh my God, that feels really nerve wracking to put that out there. Basically every personal story that we share in our book SAT Sex talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. I had serious vulnerability hangover about that. Yeah, There have been plenty of times where I've just. It's hard. But I think the reason why we choose to share it is because we do think it is really valuable to be open and honest with people. And especially about this topic that does not get talked about enough, that most of us have so much shame and embarrassment around. Like, we want to set an example of, like, hey, you can be brave, you can talk about this stuff, you can push your comfort zones a little bit. So that's come up. But that doesn't feel like full on regret for me. There also have been times where we've posted something and then we get feedback from our community of like, hey, this feels a little bit insensitive or like, you know, did you think about this aspect of it? And I've pulled things down plenty of times because I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about it in that way. And that's a really valuable perspective. Like one thing that comes to mind very recently, the most recent time I pulled something down was we did a like a Saturday funny Stories topic that was like, what's something funny that's given you the ick? And so we were sharing like silly things like, you know, oh, he had weird socks. Or, you know, I can't remember anything actually. But like, the one that I pulled down is somebody said when a guy has very feminine hands that don't look like they've like done manual labor or something like that. And I did, like a funny story because you have. Xander has beautiful hands that have definitely not done any manual labor.

Yeah, there's nothing gendered about these hands. They're just.

Yeah, I took his hands and I was like, look at these beautiful long, you know, piano playing fingers. And then somebody responded and said, okay, but like, I think the difference with these, the other examples that you're sharing are like, things that people could change, like choosing not to pick their Nose or something like that versus the hands. Like somebody can't change their hands the way their hands look and like saying that hands are feminine or masculine. And I was like completely right. Like, I just thought it was kind of a funny thing in the moment. But seeing that person's response was like, no, it's not very funny. It's not something someone can change. Like, it's not something that's worth sharing. So I pulled it down right then.

Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, it was like, yeah, it's like, because like I think that happens so often where it's like in the moment you're like, oh yeah, this feels like something that like I feel comfortable laughing about. Yeah, right now. Or it's like, oh, you know, I feel comfortable kind of being halfway self deprecating or something. But then you put it out there and it's like, oh, well, like I, I might feel okay with like, I might feel at peace with this but like somebody else might not feel at peace with this. And in fact hearing that is going to actually, you know, hurt them more or make them feel like more inadequate or more whatever it is. And yeah, I don't want to do that. So yeah, I would, I absolutely regret stuff like that. And definitely we take down stuff like that occasionally.

And I also have probably actually the strongest regret that has come up for me that we did take down is like sharing stuff about like our location. There have been safety issues that have come up for me. Like we had a reel that we had posted a while back where it showed our like what our view is. And I know that you can, you know, people are very savvy. Like you can figure out landmarks and stuff like that and like be able to like backtrack into where our house is located. And I freaked out over that. Like, I didn't think about it at all. At first. It was just filming this cute reel. But when it went up I was like, oh my God, this is a complete safety issue. So we like pulled it immediately. But I still knew like thousands and thousands of people had seen it. And yeah, like, just even sometimes I'll share about like, you know, where we're. I, I try to never share where we are when we are in that place. And I can also share like I've had experiences in my career. I've had multiple like stalker incidents. I've had multiple like threats on my life for my safety. I've had multiple like creepy and inappropriate clients experiences. And so yeah, thinking about personal safety, like, it's a tough, it's a tough line to navigate because, like, I want to share our lives with people, and I want to share, like, what we're doing and where we are. And at the same time, like, I want to be safe, too. I don't want people knowing where I live. So that's been. Yeah, that's been probably the biggest regret that came up for me.

Yeah. So if you are ever wondering, like, when we are on vacation and, you know, you're seeing us in beautiful backdrops, if you're ever wondering why they don't just say, what hotel are they at? Or whatever, that's the reason. We're happy to share that stuff after the fact. But, yeah, for us, it's important to be able to just be there in the moment and not be thinking about that stuff.

Okay. And this kind of actually goes into the next question, which is, are you concerned about being authentic while also being profitable?

This is a very good question. Yes, I am very concerned about balancing those two things. Like, for both of us, I will say integrity is a very important thing. It doesn't feel good to me to be like, oh, let me kind of gloss over some stuff in order to sell you something, or let me kind of, like, twist the story around because it makes more sense or whatever. You know, for us, like, authenticity is really important. I would rather we be as authentic as possible and kind of like, let the chips fall where they may from a profitability perspective. Because ultimately, like, I mean, I consider being profitable or, like, success or profitability is more than just, like, a dollar amount. It's also, like, how I feel about things, like, how happy I am. And I mean, I have found over the years doing this that, like, we are happiest when we feel like we are just in full alignment with doing what we love to do. Showing up, being authentic versus being like, okay, what is going to sell? Let's, like, completely, like, let's figure out exactly what we're going to say and how we're going to say it and who we need to be and all that stuff in order to, like, hit these sales goals or something.

Yeah. Well, I think this question is coming from a place of, like, people starting to get a lot more suspicious about, like, authenticity, especially on social media. Like, there's way too many of like. Like, I think you hear, you see a lot of people sharing their personal stories and then immediately turning it into, like. And that's why you should buy this product, you know? And I do think that there is, like, how do I say this to be totally Honest. Like, there is some inauthenticity in how we share our authenticity on social media.

Let's unpack that.

Well, I just think, like, just the fact that we're thinking about authenticity, there's like an inauthenticity in that in and of itself. Like, we are thinking about, like, okay, what do we want to share and how do we want to share? So we're not going to the place of like, being manipulative. Like, okay, let's change our story or like, let's make up this story. But we are definitely thinking about, like, how do we phrase this and, you know, how do we share it?

Yeah. Or like, how is this going to make sense to more of the people that follow us? I mean, the reality is, like, I know a lot of stuff about everything that we're doing. I, you know, I know all the details about a certain product that we are going to offer or something. And so if I were to just give my, like, off the cuff, like 32nd, my authentic sales pitch, it would probably not be the most authentic sales pitch because it would be coming from this place inside of me where, like, I already know all the details and I already think it's great. So the reality is I have to slow down and be like, okay, what is it that other people actually need to hear about this in order for them to really get from zero to wherever they need to get to in order to realize this is the right thing for them?

I feel like I'm not being super clear, so let me try to like, ground it in a real example. So. So one of the things that I personally have started getting a little bit annoyed by is the way that people use their story to sell one of their products, like a course or guide that they've made. So the story is always like, hey, I had this same struggle that you have right now. And I went through it and it was so hard. But then I solved it and now everything is so good and you should buy my guide. And like, I just, it starts to rub me the wrong way because it feels like people are sharing their stories in a way that's like, like so nice and neatly wrapped up with a bow manicure. I struggled and it was hard and I got through it and now it's perfect and now you should learn from me. While I. Obviously, I think it's so valuable for us to be sharing stories of, like, things that we have struggled with and like, had to overcome. Like, there's this neatness to it that just makes me feel suspicious and so I've been starting to look at how we tell stories through that same lens, and sometimes I do feel like we get into that territory of, like. Like, you know, we talk about. Yeah, early in our relationship, we were having some struggles. We had to go to therapy. You know, our sex drives were mismatched. We were dealing with a lot of different, like, stuff. And, like, then things got better. And I don't think that we, like, we have never. We have never said, like, our sex life is now perfect. Like, we went through those early struggles and it's perfect. Like, we continue to talk about ways that, like, things go wrong, tough times that we've gone through, difficulties that we've experienced, so we don't, like, wrap it up in the bow as perfectly as I've seen other people do. But there is still a, like. Yeah, sometimes it comes up from. I guess one of the other pieces of it is like, it's so hard to share your authentic story because it's so freaking complex. Like, I'd have to sit down for a month to walk through all the details of, like, what actually happened for us early in our relationship and what, you know, those conversations were like, and the ups and the downs. And what was therapy like? And when did it start to improve? Like, there's so much detail, but then having to, like, like, cram it together into like a 60 second freaking Instagram story, you know, it's like, you can't. Yeah, that's some of the stuff that comes up for me.

Yeah. Cause, like, I mean, the reality is it's not like we had this really clearly defined struggle. We got help, we figured out what was going wrong, we fixed it, and then we just sat down and we're like, all right, let's make a course to, like, help other people solve this problem. Like, the reality is, is like, like, there is, you know, with that example that you gave about, like, early on in our sex life, like, it was a lot of little things that happened over a long period of time, and then there was another long period of time in between that and when you started this business, and then an even longer period of time between when you started the business and when maybe, you know, we sat down and started, like, creating content about it or whatever. So, like, there. It's not this just, like, neat little timeline of, like, cool, like, problem solution. Now I'm selling the solution to that problem. It's like, you know, us drawing all these little bits and pieces of our story and of our experience and stuff. And, yeah, it's not this neat thing. It's like, you know, if anyone has been through any kinds of struggles, it's not like, oh, yeah, between this date and this date, we had the struggle. And then after that it was better. It was like, oh, on this date we got in an argument and then things were cool for a while and then, like, there was a big blow up on that day. And then, like, we got some help. And then for a year, like, things were pretty good. And then, like, and then for three years, it was really bad. Like, yeah, that's so much more realistic. But, like, that doesn't make for a good story.

There's also some inauthenticity in what we choose to be authentic about. Like, I mean, we choose to share. Like, we, we specifically choose what stories we're going to share and what we're not going to share. Like, there, there are definitely things that have happened in our lives where we're like, we're not talking about that or even, like, little, you know, little arguments. Like, I've thought, like, oof, you know, Xander seemed like, really a big asshole in that one or I seem like a really big asshole. Like, I don't want to tell that specific story. Like, I think inherently when you start having people who are listening to your stories and paying attention to your stories, like, you do start to develop a self consciousness about, like, what are people going to think? Like, what reactions are they gonna have? And that's what makes, makes. That's what makes it so freaking hard to, like, continue being vulnerable on an ongoing basis. This is one of our biggest struggles because, like, like I said, I don't want to wrap things up in a bow. We're not in a perfect place. Like, there are still ups and downs that we have there, you know, in our sex life, in our relationship, in our individual lives. Like, and I want to keep talking about the ups and the downs in the middle of them rather than wrapping them all up with the little bow. But when you have a big audience like you, there's. It's impossible, it's impossible to not be self conscious about. How are people going to respond? And because we've been doing this for so long, I already know in the back of my head the kinds of responses that we're going to get to things.

Yeah.

You know, so I'm more thoughtful about what we're sharing and what I'm saying about it. And I'm definitely more thoughtful about doing a ton of, like, caveats, like, okay, we're going to share this story, but first of all, I need you guys to know, like. Like, this is what happened for us. We're not saying you have to do it. This might not work for parents. This might not work for couples of, like, same sex. This might not work. You know, it's like, we have to explain everything so much before we share it, but that's what makes it. Yeah, it's like all these dynamics make it so much harder to be 100% fully authentic, even though that is our desire and our goal.

Plus, when you have a big audience and, like, also on Instagram especially, you can't tell a clear, continuous story and have everyone hear it. You know, the way that Instagram stories work, Some days people watch our stories, some days they don't. Like, so it. You know, you. Unless you're gonna put, like, 50 slides on a story where we're talking about, like, okay, so today this happened, and the next day that happened, and then there was this nuance and that caveat, blah, blah, blah. Like, there's no way to actually make sure that everyone hears all the nuances or the whole story of something. So you often do. You. You have to kind of speak in these shorter, more succinct examples or anecdotes in order to, like, get the message to people. Okay.

Clearly, we have a lot to say about being authentic, but we got. We gotta scoot it along here.

All right, I've got a question for you.

What do you call a person who speaks three languages?

Trilingual. Right.

Okay, Someone who speaks two.

Bilingual.

Okay, but what about someone who speaks just one American? See, only 22% of Americans speak a language other than English at home. And Vanessa and I know this all too well. We both have Latino heritage, but we never really got very good at speaking Spanish. And honestly, for me, at least, my.

Spanish has really, really faded out.

I studied it a lot in school, and I can barely speak any now. Now, recently, Vanessa and I were in Miami on an overnight layover, and every shop and restaurant we went into, Spanish was the first language that people started speaking to us in. And we both felt super guilty.

I mean, we both have Latino heritage.

And we can't even speak enough Spanish to converse in real time with, you know, the.

The shopkeeper or the waitress or.

Or whomever it is.

So that inspired us to get started with Babel and really start getting better.

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All right, the next question is do you worry about business sustainability with instagram yes, absolutely.

Instagram is, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. Instagram is, you know, one of the main ways that we have grown over the last couple of years. Instagram has given us incredible opportunities to grow our audience and to reach more people. And Instagram is scary as hell because of a number of reasons. But one, the algorithm can change overnight and, you know, like, it giveth with one hand and it taketh away with the other. And, you know, we have had this experience actually even before Instagram, with Google search. You know, we used to, our business used to fully be just people finding our website because we had reasonably good SEO and you know, people like getting on our email list by landing on our webpage. And I can't even remember when this was maybe like 20, 2018, 2019 or something. There was this big change that Google did to, to search where it changed the way that what they considered like healthcare organizations or something were prioritized in search. And all of a sudden our search traffic was cut in like a third or something overnight. And so, like, we know that that can happen. And that definitely happens with Instagram, where it's like, one day you're getting like a hundred thousand story views, and then the next day you're getting like 20,000 story views.

I mean, I will say, like, our story views on Instagram have tanked compared to last year. And we've talked to a lot of friends whose accounts are like similar sizes to ours. And this happens with Instagram. So even with like, when we had half of the following on Instagram that we had, our story views were like five times what they are now.

Yeah.

So that's monumental. Monumental. Enormous, enormous differences. Yeah, yeah. While, you know, I actually, if I could make a choice right now and say, like, do I want to keep the 400 plus thousand followers or do I want to go back to the 200,000 with that level of engagement? I would go back. I would 1,000% go back. Yeah, because we were. Had way more engagement, we were making way more money with Instagram. And that's what makes it really terrifying is like you don't have control over it. Like, and especially being on a topic like ours about sex, that's the other side of it, that Instagram sex content, like Instagram sex content, any sort, it doesn't matter if you're being educational or if you're doing nude photos. Like, any sort of sexual content goes against Instagram's content guidelines. So that's why we have to do all this crap, like literally Censoring ourselves. Like, we're getting to the point where I'm even thinking now about, like, not saying the words, like. Like having to be like, your, you know, male body part or, you know, or your p. Your pennies or something like that. Like, it's so bad. But y. I mean, it's really frustrating to have something, you know. Yeah. It has helped us grow. We have an amazing community there. We've connected with so many people, and at the same time, like, to have so little of it be under our control is very scary as small business owners. Like, we don't have. We don't have funding here. There's nobody, like, you know, keeping us safe, protecting us. Like, we are taking, you know, huge risks being entrepreneurs and small business owners, especially on a topic like sex. And it. Yeah, it gets really scary to see big things like that.

Yeah. And. And that is also why we try to diversify as much as possible. We have this podcast that's a great way of reaching people that's totally outside the clutches of Instagram. You know, we have an email list.

Until, like, Spotify decides to take down sex content.

Yeah. Who knows?

Knock on wood.

Yeah, please, Spotify and Apple don't do that.

Please don't.

Please don't do that. But, you know, but then we have our email list. You know, we. We. We send out weekly emails, which I think are really awesome. We have all kinds of free guides and stuff that you can get on that. Vmtherapy.com subscribe yeah, vmtherapy.com Subscribe I mean, obviously it helps us from a marketing perspective if you are on our email list, but it also helps you in case Instagram decides to, you know, stop showing our stuff to people for a month, which sometimes happens. Like, like, then, like, that's the only way that you're gonna get our stuff from us.

Yeah, we have friends in, like, other sex educators or sex therapists. Their accounts have been frozen. Their accounts have been, like, shadow banned where nobody sees the content. And we've had people whose accounts have been just straight up taken away, like, closed down. So we're. Any day that could happen.

So, I mean, if there are any other, like, sort of Instagram business owners out there where, you know, the majority of your of your revenue is coming from Instagram, like, grow an email list that is your. The very first thing, like, you need to do yesterday because, yeah, you never know when, you know, Instagram will stop giving and start taking away, you own your email.

All right, let's lighten it up a little bit with our next question. Did you guys actually test out all of those different sex positions? Did you go all out or just kind of try it? So this question is referring to our guide, Next Level intercourse, which has 42 different positions. And we have really detailed explanations for all the positions, like exactly how to get into the position, how to move in that position, variations to make on it, and how to get out of it, and how to transition from that position into other positions.

All right, so what, what, what's the answer, babe?

We did test out all of those positions. Very, very intense testing. Yeah.

I mean, how do you think we got all those variations? Like, where they come. Like, we didn't pull them out of our asses, but. Oom.

Ch. No, we don't do anything half ass. Like, we really go for it. And especially, like, our favorite thing to do with sexual technique is to break down all the things that we all feel like we should know how to do, but we're not actually totally sure about. Like, where have you ever learned how to have intercourse? Like, in detail? Like, here is exactly how to move, how to thrust, where to put your arm. Like, and so we want to do that. And so we took that very seriously with this guide. We had a lot of intercourse. We also, like, we did try some of the things clothed as well, just to, like. We wanted to try things several times.

Yeah. Especially for, like, getting in, getting out, that, like, that kind of thing. Like, okay, wait, how did we get into that position again?

Like, yeah, and like, the transitions in between positions. We did some of that clothed because we were doing so many different combinations of, like, okay, let's try this one going into this one. That one's kind of awkward. Let's try this one going into this one instead. Oh, that one's way better.

Yeah, but like, yeah, when we were trying them during set, I think if I recall, it was a while ago now. It was like a year and a half ago or more. Two years ago when we were doing this. I want to say, I think, like, what we would do is we. You. We would maybe be like, okay, like, if we're going to have sex, we're going to, like, we'd pick out, like, okay, let's do like, two or three of these.

Yeah. There was a lot of testing and refining that went into that guide, and I am super proud of all the work that we did with that, and I think it made it a truly excellent guide to be able to have that level of detail. So there was a similar question to this one that said, does trying new things in the bedroom ever just feel like market research? And I will say, no, it never does to me. And I think that's because of the approach that we take to sex that we encourage you to take with sex, which is like being playful and exploring things and trying things out and not taking it so seriously. So I love trying new things out with you. What comes to mind right now is those two podcast episodes we did about, like, trying out the Internet's weirdest sex tips. Smash or pass. That's what we called it. We had one foreplay edition and one intercourse edition, and we tried out some of the most ridiculous tips. But I had so much fun. That was some of the most fun I've ever had during sex with you. And it didn't feel like, oh, we have to do research. Like, it always feels fun and playful.

Oh, yeah. I mean, also, like, yeah, well, we. We only do that when we're. If we're, like, prepping for a podcast episode about that or, like, I don't know, some absurd TikTok trend comes about where it's like, all right, do we. Do we have to try this to report back on it? I think we do. But otherwise, like, our business is. Is not like, it's not like, oh, my God, we have to try these 10 new things so that we have something to talk about. Like, it's not like we're like a travel blogger or something, where it's like, you know, we have to go stay at five more hotels to be able to have something to write about. So I, Yeah, think fortunately we're not in that position. The main focus of our business is not like, try something new every day.

Yeah.

Do you ever have imposter syndrome? Like, telling people what to do when you're struggling to do it?

You know, we should have probably move this question.

This is, like, with the authenticity.

Yeah. Up to that. So quick answer to this one is, no, I don't ever feel imposter syndrome. And that's because I don't ever portray myself as having figured it all out or being like. Like the absolute thousand percent expert. Like, it's. So I've said the word humble, like, five times already. But, like, it's so important to me to be humble and say, like, yeah, I don't know everything. I am still learning. I still make mistakes. You know, here's what I try out, that kind of stuff. So. So that approach makes me never feel like an imposter, because I'm not. I'm not pretending to be something that I'm not.

Yeah. We also don't tend to go in hard with people and be like, you have to do this one thing. This is the one way to do it. If you don't do this, it's not going to work. Yeah, I guess I kind of feel like I just sort of skirt around that imposter syndrome thing because I'm not being like, this is our methodology and you have to do these 10 steps in a row. Despite the fact that we're struggling with four or five and six or whatever it is. We talk about just different ways to do things, things that tend. Because there's lots of different approaches that work for different people. So we like to give a number of suggestions. Questions.

Do you ever think of a new topic for guides or podcasts during sex?

I don't. When I'm having sex, I'm thinking about the sex that I'm having. I feel like we have definitely thought about stuff to, to like, to talk about or new topics. Like, afterward we'll be like, ooh, that was good. Like, let's do something about that. Right. But do you think about it in the moment ever?

It's probably happened like once or twice, but it's not a regular thing at all. Okay. Similar question is how often do you spontaneously have sex while you're discussing business? A lot of people ask specifically about the podcast. How often are we recording the podcast and we have to like, stop mid podcast and go have sex?

I don't think that's ever happened with the podcast. Actually. That has never happened. And you know what? I'll tell you why. Because the podcast, it requires a bit of setup. Maybe you are seeing this even we are recording some of this and maybe some clips are going out on Instagram or on YouTube. We'll see. But, you know, there's a. There's a lot of setup that happens. You know, like these mics are all plugged in. We're recording. We have, you know, a block in our calendar. So this feels like a pretty official thing that, that we are doing. I mean, yeah, we're also, like, not really talking about too much about our own sex life during the podcast or like, sexy things that we do. I will say, though, definitely when we are. I want to be really clear. This is, this is like when we are like, when sometimes when we are discussing like big picture ideas for like new courses or products or something, sometimes we've gotten turned on and we have gone to have sex. That does happen. That does happen sometimes. But I just want to be super clear. This is not like in like day to day stuff. Like, we're having a team meeting and then all of a sudden Xander and Vanessa have to go run off or like in the middle of the podcast.

We're professionals.

Yes, we are professionals. This only happens when it is just the two of us and just the two of us talking about certain things. And sometimes it's like, oh, that sounds exciting.

I will say, though, I think it happens less often than people probably think.

Yeah, I would, I would say we're.

Not just like constantly horny all day, every day. I mean, we talk about sex all day, every day. We do constant horny all the time. But like, it is a fun. It is a fun topic.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay. And that actually leads us right into our next question, which is part of a batch of questions about our team. So someone asked, how difficult is it to navigate such intimate topics with your employees?

Well, I think it is not difficult to navigate these topics with our employees. And part of that is because, you know, we go to a lot of pains when we are hiring people to make sure that it's someone that feels super comfortable talking about this as a topic because, you know, it's not like, you know, we. Most of the roles in our company are very, are traditional roles that you might find in any other business that's similar to ours. You know, like, oh, someone that manages like the online marketing part, someone that manages the social media, someone that manages customer service. But like, you know, if you were to just, you, you couldn't just plop someone from like, I don't know, customer service for like, you know, how to make money online business to. Into our business. The content of what they need to do on a day to day basis. This might be the same, but actually the, the content area of what we talk about is quite different. And so we ask people about that when we are interviewing them. You know, we make sure like in interview questions that we are actually talking about the content that we would talk about so we can kind of gauge like, how comfortable do people feel? You know, we kind of, you know, before we even get to the point of interviewing someone, we, we have a couple tricks that we use to make sure that we're only getting people applying for our jobs that are super passionate about what we do. So I think we do a really great job of getting people on our team that are on the same vibe and feel really comfortable.

So we've shared on Instagram before that we feel really proud of the Compensation that we give to our employees, we pay well above the average market rate. And we also have a profit sharing model where our employees get a percentage of the profits directly from the business. So the bigger the business grows, the more our employees get paid out. And I will just say, my little spicy take on this is that we are entrepreneurs in the online course space. We now know a lot of other entrepreneurs in the online course space. And there is a weird dynamic that we have noticed where a lot of people want to pay people as little as possible to work with them. And I think that's true of, like, a lot of businesses now. It's nothing specific to the online course space. I think in general, people try to, like, yeah, see what's the cheapest that I can get somebody to do this for? And that is not our vibe. It is really important to us to have team members that feel valued, that feel supported, that feel like they're really a part of something and that their compensation matches up, up with that as well. So we do not approach pay from that perspective. And we're fortunate that our business is doing well and we're able to, like, you know, support our employees in that way. And, I mean, I think of it as a huge privilege to be able to support a whole team of people. Like, that's amazing to me. I think Xander and I, we also come from entrepreneur families, too. Like, all of our parents have kind of had their own business or own thing. And, like, you know, I learned that from my parents early on. Like, my parents really took care of their employees, too, and, like, treated them like family. And it was very important to be a good boss.

And I mean, you also, in a way, like, you do get what you pay for.

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, if people know that you're trying to. I mean, I'm sure a lot of you listening to this right now are like, yeah, my boss gets away with paying me as little as they can. And I give that kind of work, you know, work that's in alignment with the value that I feel like I'm being shown. So, yeah, it's important to us to be really great employers. Xander, this was a very specific question, but I think I just wanted to address this one because I think there was some misunderstanding here. What do you pay for during your work retreats?

We pay for everything. Yes, we pay for everything. And actually, you know what? But the one thing that I just, I thought of, like, as I was. As I was saying this, that I want to make sure that we pay for in the future is. I was like, you know, the one thing that maybe we haven't paid for is, like, people's, like, transportation to and from the airport.

No, we pay for that.

We pay for that.

Yes.

Okay, great.

No. So we take all of our team on two work retreats a year. One is more of, like, a fun retreat for us all to be together because we're all remote. So we, you know, we're together, we do fun things, fun experiences. The other one is more of, like, a planning. So we're gonna do that in a couple of months, like, planning out 2024. So we've gotten questions on Instagram before when we've shared about these retreats. Like, you know, oh, do they have to, like, pay to get there? And are they being paid while they're there? And I'm like, oh, my God. We pay for everything. Like, all the food, all, you know, staying, all the activities. Like, we gave gift bags. Like, we do a lot of stuff on these retreats, and we pay for every single thing. Our employees are not paying for anything.

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. And if. If you are salaried, you are obviously already getting paid to be there. If you are hourly, like, you are getting paid for eight hours of work a day while you are on the retreat, plus everything paid for. But real talk, Vanessa, have you ever had to fire anybody?

Okay, this is, like, the spiciest question that I think we got, and I want to answer this, like, genuinely, but also with respect, because we. We have a lot of respect for everybody who has worked with us. I will say we have had a couple of people leave our team. Some have been completely their choice, and some have been us needing to let that person go.

Or some, like, mixture of mutual.

Yeah, some. Yeah, there have been some mutual things, I will say, like, as an employer, it's really important to, like, communication and transparency are our core company values. And so we have a lot of communication with our employees about their performance, about what expectations are of their job if they're not meeting expectations. There are a lot of conversations. So we've never done a. Like, you know, come into my office, you're fired on the spot. Kind of. Like, it's never been a surprise for anybody. Like, there have been a lot of opportunities and a lot of communication that's gone into it beforehand. But, yeah, we have had to let someone go. And that's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do as an employer. Like, again, after all that I said about how much we value being good employers, it Is so freaking hard to let people go. It's really hard. But I feel like we've done it in. In the best possible way. All right, Xander, coming down the home stretch here. What struggles do you encounter in the business world, being a business about sex? We have covered some of this.

Yeah, I was gonna say we covered some of this in the question about, like, sustainability and Instagram. So there's obviously the stuff about sort of like the Instagram algorithm, shadow banning, censoring, etc. I think the other big, big or two other big challenges. One is advertising. Advertising is very, very difficult, especially because most people. Facebook is basically the place to advertise. So, like, Facebook, Instagram and yeah, like, Meta will effectively not really take our advertising money.

We.

Maybe some things could get approved, but it's like, oh, total crapshoot. And very often it's just. Just things get dis. Would. Would get disapproved because of, you know, they kind of lump us in with like, a sexual service which is against their. Their terms. And so, so basically a number of years ago, we just stopped trying to advertise and instead just focused our energy and our resources on trying to grow organically. That's why we have a larger social team and put out a lot of content. So we focus on creating new content rather than driving, driving, like leads from advertising to content or courses that. That we already have. And then I think the third thing would be almost sort of like pr. Like, it is tough to get booked on things that, you know, might help us grow our audience because we talk about sex. And that was a. That was a huge thing that we ran into when we were promoting our book. You know, like, basically, like big morning shows would not have us. We were actually booked on one of the biggest morning shows there is. We had been booked for a very long time. We were about to be booked on. I seemed like, very likely to be booked on many of the morning shows. And then that just all disappeared in a moment because there was a sex scandal at one of the big networks amongst their anchors. And all of a sudden no anchor wants to have the word sex sex coming out of their mouth, even though it is not about their, like, their sex life. It's about, like, helping you all in the world, like, talk about sex in a healthier way that would hopefully avoid all of these scandals that are coming out at these TV networks. But yeah, like, so a lot of people just don't want to talk about. About this. This subject, don't want to use their platform to, you know, to promote something that maybe could. Could. I don't even know. I don't understand. It's like they feel like, oh, well, maybe this could. You know, this could reflect poorly on me when my own sex scandal comes out. And it's just like, it's. It's crazy making. But you know, that that is what it is. So I'd say those are our struggles. I. I think we're pretty at peace with that now. You know, we just try to show up and do the things that we know we can do, and we try to do everything we can.

Speak for yourself. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm at peace with it. Like, it feels. I mean, it just feels challenging. Like, I know that the work that we do is really important, and I want our business to grow bigger and serve more people because it's. It's so important. It's so valuable. Like, I don't want to get famous for myself. Like, I want to be able to help more people have amazing sex, overcome the sexual shame that they have. Have. And so it does feel, like, really frustrating to me that normal tools that are available to any other small business owner, like, just aren't available to us. And especially knowing, like, how important this work is, how big of an impact it makes, like, the stories that we hear from our community every day about the impact that we've made. I'm like, I want everybody to be able to have these kinds of experiences. So it definitely does frustrate me. And it just. I guess there is some level of acceptance. I know, like, this just is what it is, and this is a sign that our business is so needed still. But it's. Yeah, some days it can be. It can feel tough.

Yeah, I. I guess what I meant when I say we've come to terms with it is, you know, instead of focusing on, like, oh, we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't do this. We instead think about what can we do? So, okay, we can. You know, instead of all this money that we would be spending on advertising, we can spend that on another social employee, and we can create more original content, and we can do this. So. So I just like to think about, like, what can we do and focus my energy there, because it takes a lot of energy to be upset about something or to be focused on, like, the can't. Like, you know, then you'd be like, oh, God. Well, if we could advertise, I would set up this type of campaign and we could do use, you know, these Type of graphics and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, that takes up a lot of mental energy. And instead of going down that whole path, I just get to go down, what can we do? Like, oh, cool. Like, let's make an original reel about this subject. Subject instead.

And that is why we rely on you so much to help our business grow, too. Like, the word of mouth is really the best way for it to grow. Like, the podcast reviews, sending episodes to your friends, posting about it in your stories, getting, you know, doing a book club about our book with your friends, or just, like, lending them your copy. Like, it makes such a big difference. Like, it really is one of the only ways that we're able to grow. So that's why we appreciate you so much for being able to help us out.

All right, final question, Vanessa, do you have a business bucket list? Like, any special guests that you would want to collaborate with?

There are so many people that I would love to collaborate with, but off the top of my head, I mean, the be all, end all would obviously be Oprah. Like, I would. I would die. I would melt into a puddle and die if I could do something with Oprah.

And I mean, we're just down the street, Oprah, it would be so easy.

Be really easy. I also love Brene Brown so much. Like, same. To be able to collaborate with her in some way or be on her podcast, be amazing. Mel Robbins, armchair expert, Skinny Confidential. Like, those podcasts are so huge, too. Like, being able to share our message on that platform. Jay Shetty as well, like, any of those would be really huge. So, hey, if you have any connections with Oprah, Brene, you know, Mel, just want to call them up and say you've got a really cool guest.

Yeah. Help us out. We can't advertise, so advertise for us, please.

I will say, though, especially with podcasts, podcast hosts really pay attention to their communities.

Oh, yeah.

And so if their favorite podcasts that you love listening to, like, if you want to DM them or, like, email them in and suggest just us as guests, that actually you would be shocked by how big of an impact you can have just shooting off a little DM or leaving a comment somewhere, like, it makes a big, big difference. All right, well, that is it for this episode. If you are a new listener to our podcast, welcome. We are so glad you stuck around for this episode.

Yeah, this was a good one.

And we would love to encourage you to follow pillow talks and whatever platform you like to listen to podcasts on. So you'll never miss out on a new episode. Remember what we said right at the top of the episode, like following the podcast or subscribing to it, like it actually makes a really, really big difference. So we're so grateful for that. So to follow you just need to head to the main podcast page where it lists all of our episodes. You'll see the word follow under the logo on Spotify, and on Apple Podcasts you'll see the Follow with a plus sign button in the top right. So you just go ahead, click that follow button and you're ready to stay up to date with all of our future episod. And we mentioned a few things in this episode so we will be sure to link those in the show notes like the description of this episode. We mentioned our book Sex Talks. We mentioned getting our our email list@vmtherapy.com subscribe and we mentioned our guide Next Level Intercourse. We will put links to all of those things down below.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we.

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