Episode 132: Why We Started Making Out Every Night

30 minutes. Like that's a long time. And I was like, oh no, no, no, no. Seconds. 30 seconds, not 30 minutes. Like nobody's got time to make out for 30 minutes a day, every single day. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Storyworth for supporting Pillow Talks. Storyworth is a meaningful gift you and your family can treasure forever. And you can get started right away. Go to storyworth.compillow to get $10 off your first purchase. And thanks to Jae Joo, the luxury sex toy brand for supporting Pillow Talks. Go to J E-O-U-E.com for their Black Friday sale that runs from November 10th to November 30th for up to 50% off. And thanks to Babbel for supporting our show. Babbel's 10 minute lessons make it the perfect way to learn a new language on the go. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners to get you started. Right now, get free 55% off your Babel subscription, but only for our listeners@babel.com pillow Today's episode is all about the most viral piece of content that we have ever made. We made a video about it. We posted it on both Instagram and TikTok. Currently it has 8.4 million views on TikTok, 9.5 million views on Instagram.

Damn.

This video was covered on morning shows like Kelly and Ryan and the Drew Barrymore Show. We did interviews about it with Newsweek. Well and good Popsugar, Huffington Post and the New York frickin Times who literally.

Wrote an article basically defining a term that we coined.

It's been wild. And this whole thing is all about how Xander and I make out before bed every single night. That's it. A little like 10 to 20 second ritual that we have. All of this press has come out of that. So when we originally made the video we thought it was interesting and useful. Like we wouldn't have made a video if we didn't.

But I think we just looked at it like any other piece of content that we create for social media. We were not like, oh, yeah, this one is. Is gonna slay. It was just like.

We had no clue.

It was. It was just like, okay, like, you know, this is one of the. I don't even know how many things we prep for each week, but it's just like, if. If there are 10 things that we're prepping for the week, like, this is just one of 10. It didn't stand out to me, and I don't think it stood out to you as, like, anything more or less special than any of the others. I mean, that's kind of social media for you. Yeah.

You never know what thing is going to strike a nerve with people, but clearly it did. And we've gotten so many questions about our little makeout rit. So we decided we've got to break it all down for you. In a full podcast episode, we're going to talk about why we started doing it in the first place, the benefits of doing it that we've noticed all of your questions about it. So we put up a question box on Instagram. We said, like, hit us with your questions. What is confusing? What don't you understand? What are you afraid of? Why don't you want to try it? We're answering all of those questions, and we even have some of your stories about what it has done for your relationship.

But first, we gotta read you our review of the week this week. Much more confidence and understanding. Hello. Hello. I love when people start with a nice greeting.

They start like a review with a greeting that's very precious.

It's kind of like a letter, but a very casual letter. Maybe an email to a friend. Hello. Hi. Hello. Hi.

It's like a text that my dad sends. It's gonna be signed like, love, dad.

Yeah, except the difference between this and your dad is that this is all one paragra. Your dad would have separated all of.

These my daddy text messages, and we call them dad's haikus. Yeah, he doesn't use periods. He just hits return. So it goes to a new line.

Yeah. Is it a comma, Is it a period? Is it a new paragraph?

You'll never know.

You'll never know. And he probably doesn't either. All right. Hello. I heard Vanessa on another podcast a while back and loved it. So I searched for pillow talks and began listening. I've been married for 22 years, and I'm rather introverted. My husband is the complete opposite. I was raised with conservative parents who didn't openly talk about sex or relationships, so I was pretty closed off. And Embarrassed around the topic and doing it. After listening to many episodes, I've been able to be more expressive and vulnerable with my husband. I've always loved being intimate with him, but shy at the same time. Things are beginning to change and we both notice and love it. Thank you both for the funny, honest and raw conversations you shared with us all weekly. It has really, really helped me open up.

What a wonderful review that one is. Thank you so much for taking time to leave reviews. Reviews make such a big difference for the podcast. We've talked a lot about how reviews are the best way to help a podcast grow by like reaching new people. Spotify and Apple are more likely to share it with people if there are more reviews and better reviews. But I also wanted to share this week. Like, we read your reviews every single week in our team meetings. And like internally as a team team, we really make a lot of changes to the podcast based on the reviews. Like, what are people responding to? What topics do they like? What do they want us to cover more of?

Also, it's such a great way for us to, you know, make sure that our team is also aware of the impact that not only we, but they are making on all of you and on the world. I think that's so. It's so important. You know, when you work for someone, it's easy to get caught up in the minutiae of just like the day to day stuff and like, oh, Vanessa and Xander want this so I have to do that for them. But it's, you know, we use this as an opportunity to kind of like, you know, kind of, I don't know, open, open their mind in terms of, hey, there's all this stuff going on outside of our day to day stuff, there's such big impacts that we're making. Kind of helps, you know, give people a more, I don't know, what's the word, like 10,000 foot view instead of the 10 foot view.

Yeah. So leaving reviews, it really does help us create a better podcast for you and so we're so appreciative of you taking the time to do it. So here's how you leave a review. Go over to the Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom and you'll see the review section there. And we do a giveaway every single week to say thank you for taking the time to leave the reviews. So if you hear your review read in an episode, you can email us@infoemtherapy.com and you will win a prize. You'll get to choose Your prize, actually, your choice of one of our masterclasses that you will get absolutely for free. Just as our way of saying thank you. All right, so let's get into the episode. We thought that the best thing to do would just be to play you the audio of the reel so you can hear the full thing and then we can like dissect it more together and advance apologies.

It's gonna sound really bad compared to what you are hearing of us through these nice podcast mics. This is recorded in our bathroom on with the. With the. The iPhone microphone, a bit far away from Vanessa at the tile bathroom. It's really echoey.

Very echoey.

So this might be a little jolting.

A little behind scenes too. I was balancing that phone on a Kleenex box because we didn't have anything nice enough to like, that would fit on the ledge of the sink and hold the camera.

Oh, yeah. I mean, let me set the scene. This is a Get Ready With Me video, I think. Was this the first Get Ready With Me video you ever.

I think it was actually.

So it's actually really challenging to film Get Ready With Me videos because you have to find a way to, you know, you have to be looking in a mirror so that you can see what you are doing, doing, and you have to find a way to have the camera, like, filming you looking in the mirror, but you can't have the camera visible like in the. It's. It's just like a whole thing where, you know, it's just challenging to. To get set up right. And, you know, to kind of execute these videos. It's a little more challenging than they look. I think a lot of people, I. I've always seen Get Ready With Me stuff, whether it's like actually getting ready in the bathroom or like, oh, like I'm in the car filming or whatever, and I'm like, you know, there's part of you is like, oh, that's just like lazy content creation. Right. Like. Like you're multitasking, but like, no, you're not.

Yeah.

I don't know. Maybe some people are actually multitasking, but it takes just as long. It's more of like, let me give you something to watch while I am creating content.

All right, let's play the clip. Get Ready With Me while I talk about why my husband and I make out every single night. So here's how it usually goes in long term relationships. When you first start dating each other, it's like you can't keep your hands off each other. Right. You're always touching, always kissing. But the pattern for most people is that once they get into a long term relationship, they really stop touching and kissing so much. And eventually it gets to the point where the only time that you're like really kissing each other is when you're trying to initiate sex. But what happens for a lot of people, especially if you're the lower sex drive partner in the relationship, is that you start becoming avoidant of any sort of touch or kissing. Like if you're not wildly in the mood, you don't want your partner to kiss you and think that it's going to lead to more. Right. But this only further intensifies that connection that kissing has to or is supposed to lead to sex. And this can even lead to what I call the bristle reaction, which is when you become so hyper vigilant to your partner's touch or kisses that you actually can feel yourself bristle whenever your partner comes in to try to make contact with you. So the intent behind our nightly makeout sessions is to actually break the connection between making out and sex. This nightly routine has taken the pressure off of us to have to have sex if we start making out. And it's really allowed us to enjoy making out just for the sake of making out. So we originally started this ritual a couple of years ago and we decided to just try it out as an experiment, like let's see how this goes. Will we like it? Will we want to continue doing it? And it went so well for us that we have continued to do it just about every single night. We will talk about the exceptions in a minute. So let's talk about some of the benefits that we've noticed for ourselves and that we think other people can experience as well. So one thing that happened for us is that it really broke that connection that kissing is supposed to lead to sex. So we fell into a pattern that I think most couples in long term relationships do, which is that we really stopped kissing as much outside of sex. Like we definitely kissed during sex right in the lead up to sex. But we weren't kissing very much outside of the bedroom. And I remember realizing that one day and feeling so sad about that because the night that Xander and I met, we made out and just made out like a little touching, but pretty much just made out for six hours.

It was a bit long.

It was excessive.

We might not do that again.

I've never done that with somebody else before. We have never repeated that. I don't know what got into us that night. It was just it was exciting. The kissing chemistry was there. We did it for hours and hours and hours, and we never did it that much ever again. But, like, we definitely made out a lot in the early stages of our relationship, and I really loved that. I mean, I think especially in the early stages of a relationship, it feels so exciting to just make out. It kind of. For me, it, like, recalls being a teenager again that just like that time in your life when kissing is just the most exciting, best thing ever. It was just so fun. But as time went on, we were doing that less and less and less to the point where it was, like, pretty much just around sex.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people have that experience of early on in their relationship. You make out at times when, like, you're not. You're for sure not going to have sex. You're totally not able to have sex. You might be, like, taking a walk on the beach and then you start kissing or. Or whatever. Like, so we do that so often early on in a relationship, and then at a certain point, it just kind of. That's gone.

Yeah. And so because of that, we had made this connection between, like, oh, if we're making out, it's supposed to lead to sex.

Yeah. If someone slips the tongue, it's like, it's on.

And it would. But, like, no, it wasn't. It's on in an exciting way. It was like, ooh, he's slipping me the tongue. And I don't. I'm not, like, ready for that. I don't think I want to have sex right now. So, like, let me pull away or try to stop this. And, yeah, sometimes it could feel, like, pressure and, you know, just. Yeah, it had this kind of heavy tone to it.

Yeah. It was charged with something.

So the reason that I suggested this make out in the first place is I was like, you know, I don't want us to only make out around sex, and I don't want to feel any sort of pressure. Not that you were ever, like, pressuring me, but just this internal pressure. It's like, I just don't want to feel these weird vibes around making out when it's been like, such a central part of our love story.

Yeah, I mean, I think you didn't want that for either of us. Like, I think that was something that was coming up for both of us was like, if, you know, if. If I slipped you a kiss or slipped you the tongue, or if you slipped me a kiss with the tongue, like. Yeah, both of us, you know, the. The opposite person would be thinking, oh, is. Is she. Or is he trying to initiate sex? Like, do I want that? I don't know. And then it's like, that's like bad vibes going into a kiss anyway, if you're like, you know, half in, half out.

Oh, yeah.

Not in a sexy way.

We're gonna talk about this more when we get to your questions about our nightly makeout. But, you know, one of the biggest questions that came up was, like, well, isn't this awkward? And I'm like, kissing was awkward for us before we started doing it, because there was that unspoken, like, wait, are you trying to. Are you trying to initiate? Are you into this? Are we. You know, are we doing it? Are we not doing it? So anyways, that was one of the main benefits for us, is that it broke this connection or this expectation that kissing was supposed to lead to sex.

And it made kissing less awkward because of that. Like what you just said.

Yes, absolutely. Another dynamic that happened is that it also eliminated the bristle reaction. So we just. Just quickly touched on the bristle reaction. In the video. We actually have an entire episode just about that. That's episode 99. So I won't go into it in too much detail other than just kind of reiterating what was in the video. Like, the bristle reaction is the name that we came up with for when you feel your body recoil from your partner's touch.

It's actually. It's kind of just like a more extreme version of what you were just describing of. You know, in. In the example of, like, you know, I kiss you, and. And then immediately you start thinking, oh, is he wanting more? Do I want more? I don't know. Maybe I should kind of pull away. It's like the next level of that, where whether it's a kiss or a touch or a hug, where you kind of. Instead of thinking, oh, I'm not sure about that, so you physically manifest that energy, and it's like, oh, you kind of feel like the.

Ooh.

Oh, okay. I better kind of back away slowly. Also, when it comes to making out before bed, a lot of people get focused on the. The physical aspect of it because, yeah, technically, kissing is a physical thing, but it actually added a lot more emotional intimacy into our relationship for a couple of reasons. I mean, first of all, because we had kind of broken that connection between kissing and sex and eliminated the bristle reaction. Like, that opened the door for there to be, you know, more making out, which can cause more intimacy in general and more emotional intimacy. It's like this sweet moment of connection right before bed. Just being able to show each other that love and then feel that love, feel that emotional connection. And also, it just allows you to be more present in the moment when you're kissing. I think that's, you know, kind of like the very first thing you were saying, Vanessa, is before. Before, when we had this straight line connection of, like, kissing goes to sexual. You start kissing and you're thinking ahead to all of this stuff. Like, do I want, you know, do I or don't I want sex? Okay. Oh, it looks like maybe we're gonna do it. Like, okay, like, should we go into the other room and, like, what order of things do we want to do? Like, how do I want to get this started? How am I feeling? And it's so nice to just break all of that and just get focused on, like, your partner being present with your partner, the sensations of kissing. And we both were like, wow. It just. Everything feels so much more emotionally connected.

Yeah. I think for me, a big part of the emotional connection was that it started to very quickly feel like this secret, special thing that we did. And obviously we turned it into this real. And now millions of people know that we do it, but it just felt like this, you know, it was like our own little special thing that we did. And I think having. Having this kind of, like, internal language in a relationship is something that creates that feeling of more emotional intimacy. These little, like, inside jokes and secrets.

Yeah. It's like, hey, there's this. Here's this cool thing that we do that we know most people don't do. And then because of all that emotional intimacy that we felt, I think that really helped us sleep better too. Every night it would be like, okay, yeah, we're gonna do this nice thing. We're going to bed on such a positive note. We're both feeling so connected and in love with each other. It just feels like a really great, like, punctuation mark at the end of the day and calm.

Punctuation mark.

Yeah, like a nice, calm period. Not an exclamation mark. I mean. Yeah, I don't know. For me, it just was so, like, I just felt like, okay, great. Like, you know, the day is, you know, really positive. It's been settled. There's no more expectations. We're just going to bed. It's just really nice going to bed, kind of feeling free.

Another benefit that came up for me was just getting my enjoyment of kissing back.

Like, me too.

Having that experience of just kissing just for the Sake of kissing. It just felt so much more enjoyable and kind of tied in with what you were saying about being more present in the moment. I think there's a way that when you know it's not going to lead to sex, like we're just making out, just to make out. It lets you enjoy that act so much more. Rather than like you were kind of saying being up in your head of like, oh, is this supposed to lead to more kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, I can also totally acknowledge how I just had started to enjoy kissing less and less because of all this stuff that we were just talking about. Like, you know, obviously when I started making out with people like in high school or whatever, it was like that was obviously very exciting. Right. It's a brand new thing. But you know, even through the time that we met, like, it was still an exciting thing. And as more and more time went on, it was just like, yeah, I think if I were to kind of rank the things that I enjoyed sexually, making out would have been quite low because it just didn't. It just didn't feel exciting anymore. And it definitely, it like, I love it now, it's great.

It also led to more sexual tension. And this is another question that we're going to address in just a minute here. Like a lot of people were very worried about the like pressure for it to lead to more type of thing. But the way that we set it up, like knowing, okay, we're just making out, it's just for the sake of doing this little ritual. Like it did create a little bit of sexual tension sometimes. And again because it forces you to be more present in the moment with the kiss and like really enjoying and experiencing and savoring that kiss. That it did create like some sexual tension and excitement. Like I found myself being turned on by our kisses in a way that I hadn't in a very long time. So we'll talk in a minute about how to navigate all of that tension. But, but it was fun to feel that sexual tension with you again. Especially after like, you know, we've been together almost 16 years.

Yeah. And I think that it helped me, at least I don't want to speak for you, but it helped me learn to appreciate that sexual tension more. I think that after a long time in a long term relationship, you almost start to feel like sexual tension is a bad thing, like, oh, someone must want something that someone else doesn't want or like it takes on this negative, negative tone, like, oh, like some needs are going unmet or something. And it's more of a. Like, I want to avoid sexual tension at all costs. But if you think back to the beginning of a relationship or just maybe in your younger years, like, sexual tension is a totally positive thing. Like, it's an exciting thing. It makes the act of sex so much more exciting when there's a bit of tension or anticipation. And then finally, I want to say. And we will talk more in detail about this, but despite the fact that we said that we wanted to break the connection between kissing leading to sex, we did find that this ritual did actually create more opportunities for us to have sex. And this wasn't an immediate thing. And we'll talk about this more later. Don't worry. But what we found was that we actually did start having a lot more sex as a result of this ritual. All right, now that we have described what this has done for us, it's time to get into all the questions. And I'm really excited for this because we obviously got a million questions in the comments for that TikTok and for the Instagram, and we've tried to answer a lot of them, but it's, you know, it's kind of hard to answer some of these questions in, like, a short comment or even in an Instagram story. So these are like, like the most common, the most popular questions that people have asked. And I. I'm excited to have a good opportunity to really just describe this in detail. So, number one, let's start with the basics. Vanessa, define what a makeout is.

Okay. This was something that I never expected to get from people. Like, this is one of the most popular questions that we get asked about it. And I really didn't think there was going to be so much confusion about what a makeout is. So our definition is just that it involves some form of tongue contact. So if you have a different definition of makeout, let us know. Come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Zander, let us know what your definition is. But that's been our only rule there. It's like, there's just gotta be a little tongue. Tongue action.

Yeah. Okay, but so then how long do we actually do it for?

Okay, we don't have a rule about this, but it's around 30 seconds most nights. If we are enjoying it and feeling excited, we'll go a little longer. If we are exhausted or just not, like, really feeling it, it can be 10 seconds. It's really not like we don't have any rules about it. It's just kind of like we see what we're feeling in the moment. But one of the funny things that happened is right when this first started taking off, well and Good was one of the first media publications to, like, reach out and ask to do an interview about it. And so I got on the phone with this reporter, and she's like, I have to tell you, like, we have been hotly debating this in the office. Like, we're on the slack thread. Like, some people just absolutely hate this idea. Some people really love it. But, like, it's bringing up some strong opinions. And, like, we're just shocked at, like, how you managed to find the time to do this. And I was feeling so confused listening to her. Like, what. What is she talking about? Like, I didn't think there'd be, like, this strong a feeling. So I was. And anyway, she's like, I mean, 30 minutes. Like, that's a long time. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. Seconds. 30 seconds, not 30 minutes. Like, nobody's got time to make out for 30 minutes a day, every single day, right before bed. Hell, no.

Yeah. I think that you had said seconds in the TikTok. And at the very least, like, in comments, we had. We had kind of said, like, oh, 10 to 30 seconds is how long we usually do it. And this sounds like a bad game of telephone. Like, one person read it and, like, didn't really internalize it, right. And was like, oh, my God, these guys are saying, do it for 30 minutes. And then it's like, off to the races on the well and good slack there.

Yeah, they were very upset, and I was like, no, please tell people it's only 30 seconds.

Yeah, like, for the last week, we've been arguing about the wrong thing.

All right, Xander, I'll hit you with the next question. Is it awkward getting it started every night? So I know I already talked about how kissing was actually more awkward for us when there was that. That kind of unspoken tension of, like, you know, are we going to. Are we not going to? But, yeah, these days, how does it.

Feel for you these days? There's zero awkwardness. It's just a habit. It's a ritual. It's something that we do. It's. It. Honestly, it feels awkward. If we were to not do it.

Okay, what about, like, when we first started doing it? Do you remember, like, did it feel awkward to, like, okay, we're gonna try this new thing. We're gonna do it every night?

Yes, it did. Because it took me a while, at least, to. To really break that connection. You know, there was the part of me that was like, okay, we're saying that we're gonna do this, but, like, you know, my brain was still wired to associate. Okay, I feel a tongue in my mouth and like, and now I'm thinking, oh, like, sex. Do I want sex? What's. What? Like, oh, is. Is I'm reading into, like, oh, well, she's still kissing me. Does that mean she wants to go longer? Well, what does that say about me? And so I would say it took me a couple of weeks to really start to quiet my mind and be able to be truly present in the moment. It does take a little while. So that part of it was awkward, for sure. But that awkwardness faded really fast once I became, like, able to just trust, like, oh, yeah, this is what we're doing. This is all we are doing and to really enjoy it.

I don't know if you'll remember, like, how you felt back then, but do you remember if you ever wanted to stop doing it? Like, was there a part of you that was like, this is dumb or this is just confusing or whatever?

I don't, I don't think so. What I do remember is before we started doing this, like, in this format, I do remember that probably even for a couple of years, I think that I remember you initiating a conversation a number of times, talking about missing making out and how it'd be fun to make out more. And we would talk about it and, you know, we never. We would talk about, like, oh, yeah, well, okay, yeah, like, let's try that or let's do that. But it was never in the context of like, oh, like, let's do it in this structured way. And I remember, I definitely felt, whenever we talked about it, like, oh, yeah, that's what she's saying now. But, like, it's going to be awkward when we do it because what about the, you know, the sex stuff and blah, blah, blah. So I definitely was doubtful about that when we talked about it before. Before. Before it was in the context of, like, doing this, this make out ritual.

Okay, well, here, this next question is pretty similar. So let me ask it to you now. Like, doesn't it make affection feel like a chore and not enjoyable?

No, it doesn't. We get this question so much from. I mean, we also get this question just about sex in general. Like, oh, well, because you got, you know, because Vanessa is a sex therapist and you talk about sex on Instagram. Does having sex therefore somehow feel like a chore because it's something you have to do for your job?

Well, I think this is even broader than that. I mean, I think this is related to what we call the fucking fairy tale from our book, sex talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. We talk about this fairytale version of sex that we've all been taught to believe or, like, taught to expect, where nobody has to. To talk about sex. Everything just happens spontaneously and effortlessly and perfectly. And so having to have any sort of, like, intention around sex or communication or even, oh, my God, structure around sex turns it into a chore and makes it feel, like, not special and it's not the way it's supposed to be. And so I, like, I. I grew up believing that sex was supposed to be like that as well. I have struggled with that in my own ways, so I feel a lot of sympathy for it. And I also realize at this point that the fucking fairytale is complete and utter bullshit. Like, what else in our lives do we expect should just happen effortlessly and perfectly with zero effort, zero communication involved? Like, we don't put that level of pressure on anything else in our life. And I think it's just an incredibly unrealistic expectation to have of our sex life. Like, if intimacy is important to us, if our connection with our important. With our partner is important to us, why shouldn't we put some effort into it? Why shouldn't we try?

Yeah, I mean, I'd flip this question around and be like, what else in your life is enjoyable? And, like, does it feel like a chore when you have to, like, make a plan or a schedule to do those things? Like, I love surfing. I go surfing as much as I can. I pretty much never go surfing spontaneously. Like, I plan for it. Like, I'm looking at the forecast the night before or multiple days before and like, oh, yeah, it looks like it's gonna be good this morning. It looks. Looks. Looks like it's gonna be good that afternoon. Like, is it gonna fit? You know, do I have enough time in my schedule? Maybe I could move a meeting around, you know, the night before. Like, I'm making sure I have food and water and, like, all my gear ready to go so that I can, like, get in the car as quickly as possible. That doesn't make the surfing any less enjoyable. And I just don't understand how this isn't the same kind of thing. Like, the stuff that we do that's important to us that we like to do, like, it is enjoyable in and of itself. It doesn't matter, like, how we get to the place of doing it. So. Yeah. And also, I mean, the other thing about it is it's like, I mean, I love Vanessa. I got into a relationship and I got married to Vanessa because I love her. And I, I. Kissing is a way that we show love. Like, why would I not want to do that thing? I mean, yeah, like, if I do think that, yes, if it does, if it feels like a chore and not enjoyable, oh God, I have to kiss my partner. Like, I might invite you to do some personal work on, like, what's coming up for you.

I think another comparison that comes up for me is around date night. Like, if you have a ritual around date night. If it's like every Saturday night we go out to dinner and we go to our favorite place or we try a new restaurant every single time or whatever. It is like having a ritual around date night that feels so special and like, sweet and exciting. You wouldn't ever leave date night. You would never be like, oh, we can't plan date night. Like, ugh, if we plan date night, that makes it a chore and not enjoyable. Or like, ugh, we have to do date night every Saturday. Like, come on. So why can't we have that same sort of attitude around, like that little bit of physical and emotional intimacy too? Before we go any further, we want to tell you a little bit more about our partners because without their support, pillow talks would not be possible. So first up, I want to tell you about Storyworth. 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All right. But, Vanessa, do we still do it even if we're angry with each other or if we're sick?

Okay, these two questions come up so often, and the answer is no and no. So we are not believers in the never go to bed angry rule. We think that sometimes going to sleep, getting a good night of sleep is the best way to address conflict. That's just, like, a very never go to bed angry is so outdated and unhelpful. So we are not believers in that. And if we are angry with each other, or at least upset or things aren't feeling good, like, we are not gonna force ourselves to make out with each other. So that's fine. We avoid it. I will say sometimes, though, if we've had a day where there's just, like, maybe we've been, like, squabbling with each other, where it's like. It's not, like, a conflict or a fight, but we're just kind of a little bit irritable with each other sometimes the makeout session can actually be a really great way to, like, say, okay, let's just, like, let go of that nonsense and, like, end the night on a good note. So sometimes it works that way. But, yeah, if we're angry with each other, no, we're not doing it. And when we're sick, hell, no. Like, I am not trying to pass germs around if we are sick. I have, like, just barely recovered from COVID I feel like my voice is, like, 95% of the way back pretty good.

You're not gurgling all the time.

We were not making out when I had Covid. Like, I. I think that there are a small percentage of people out there who still want to have that physical intimacy when they're sick. Some people even say that they get a little more turned on when they're sick. Like, wow, you do you. But for me, if I am sick, if Xander's sick, I'm not trying to pass germs.

Yeah.

Big fat now.

I mean, I. I think that also, like, there. There's. There's some percentage of people out there just that really, like, want to live in absolutes. Like, want to live in sort of, like, the binary or the extreme of, like, I want. I want to take this piece of advice, and if. If I'm getting this piece of advice from this expert, they must be saying, I have to do it 100% at the time. It's always or never. And I don't Think we have any advice that's really always or never. There's always shades of gray. There's always middle ground. Like, life is not lived in the absolute or in the extreme. Like, life is very much a gray area of things in the middle. And I think advice is all about, here's what, you know, here's what we think is a best practice. Something to do when it is practical or to do as much as possible. But no one, we can never live this, like, 100%, okay, I always, 100% of the time, always do this or I never do that. And I, you know, unless you hear us saying you should never, blah, blah, blah. Like, our advice is meant to be taken with a grain of salt. Like, this is something that's great to do if you can, when you can, as much as you can, but not like, I have to rejigger my entire life so that I can never not do something well.

Okay, the next question that we have kind of fits in with that. A lot of people said, what if you just don't enjoy making out all that much?

Yeah, this is a really good question. I think we've actually learned a lot about this through. Through this piece of content. And also, we did a kissing episode early on.

It was one of our first ones.

Yeah. Early on in the Pillow Talks history, because we were getting a lot of questions about that. And we found out through polling people in that first episode, like, there's actually a lot of people out there that don't love kissing. And I didn't know that. Kissing has always been a part of my sex life. I guess you could call it my sexual awakening. And I think same for you. And, yeah, I just never. I never knew that it was like, oh, some people just really don't like kissing, but people don't like kissing for all kinds of reasons. So if you don't love kissing, then definitely don't force yourself to make out. I think you could find another form of physical affection that you guys like and try to do that every night. Maybe that's just like a cuddle or a naked cuddle or a bunch of pecs, whatever it is that you like to do that brings you close together, then, you know, talk about that and do that. It's not that the making out is somehow better than anything else. It's that. But for a lot of people, kissing, making out is an enjoyable way to have that intimacy.

Okay. How do you bring it up to your partner without hurting their feelings? And I want to ask this to you because we heard this question a lot from women about their male partners. There were a lot of women worrying, like, oh, I'm going to hurt his feelings if I suggest this or if I even say that I want more like non sexual physical intimacy.

Well, in terms of how to bring it up, I think a really simple way that millions and millions of people have taken is to just share that reel or share that TikTok with your partner or this episode and say, what do you think now when it comes to the hurt feelings? I guess I'm curious, like, what are we talking about here exactly? Is it like you would be hurting their feelings because you are suggesting making out more and therefore you are implying that they are not making out with you enough currently? Okay, well, I mean, I guess my first question to that is, like, why is that. That, why is that like one person's responsibility in the relationship? It's not like one partner is responsible for initiating makeouts or the amount of making out that you do, and the other partner bears no responsibility for it. Right. Like, this should be a joint thing. Like, hey, I, you know, hey, I think it might be fun for us to do this more together.

Well, I think a lot of women feel like men are sensitive to criticism. You know, we hear a lot of stuff of like, men's egos and, you know, they're so fragile. So I think a lot of women are worried that if you say, if they say I want to make out more, that the guy's gonna take it as an insult. Like, oh, I haven't been doing it enough. But so I get what you're saying, that like, it's not just, just his responsibility to make sure you guys are having adequate makeouts.

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, okay. So, yeah, there, there is a whole thing about, you know, yeah, men are really sensitive to criticism. I don't. This is not criticism though. This is a suggestion. I think, though I think the interesting thing about that, the, the criticism stuff or the being open to suggestion stuff is that it's almost a. Yeah, men might be. It's a chicken or egg thing. Like, yeah, men might be sensitive to this, but it's also like, are we creating an environment in which men are maybe more sensitive because we are avoiding all of these potential conversations. We are not, you know, if we are not giving our partner the possibility to respond to a suggestion or even a criticism, like a constructive piece of criticism if you have it. If they never have that opportunity with you, they don't have any reps doing that. They don't have any Experience doing that. Like, if in the 16 years Vanessa and I have been together, if she had never made a suggestion to me, she'd never given me any kind of constructive criticism, and then she did today, I would be like, oh, my God, like, what. What is wrong? My ego. This has never happened. This must be really fucking serious.

So we're babying men, you think?

I mean, like I said, I think it's a chicken and an egg thing. I think that men don't have a great track record of responding well, so then we avoid putting them in those situations, and so then they become even less capable of responding positively to those situations. So, I mean, I think that there's some amount of, like, Band Aid that needs to be ripped off in these cases. I think that it's, you know, hey, look, you can't control how your partner is going to respond or react to something, but what you can control is how you show up, what you say, the energy that you bring to something. And so I think that the only way that your partner is going to get better with receiving things like this is, you know, you doing your very best, bringing it up in a calm, mellow, constructive, positive way. And, you know, seeing how they respond. Avoiding the situation isn't going to help you. And coming at it in this, like, oh, I don't know what you're gonna think about this, but what would you think if maybe we. I'm not saying that you're doing it wrong, but, you know, coming at it from that energy also is like, you're setting them up to be like, oh, she's saying it's not a big deal, but it's for sure a big deal because she's showing me it's.

This is all about the delivery. And I think this question is a reflection of how uncomfortable most of us are with talking openly about sex. We don't have the experience doing it. We feel embarrassed and awkward and nervous. And so any sort of communication feels like a criticism. But here's the thing. There is nothing critical about this nightly makeout.

Yeah, that was my first thought. I was like, okay, where's the criticism?

There's no criticism there.

It's just in your head. It's this inferred criticism. And I think it's. You also kind of have to take responsibility for, like, that's your. That's in your head. You're. This is. This is your brain not wanting to do this and coming up with reasons to convince you not to do it.

So, of course, if you go to your partner and you're like, we never make out anymore. You never kiss me. There's no intimacy in our relationship. This is all your fault. I can't believe you've let it get there. That's bad.

Do you even know me? Yeah.

Like, of course your partner is going to have their feelings hurt and be defensive and probably not going to want to do this, but that's not how you share this. Instead, you can say something like, hey, I saw this reel today. I listened to this podcast episode. They're not going to get defensive or upset. Like, it's just all about the delivery.

All right, Vanessa, we got a lot of questions about this as well. Like, people saying, well, we're already in that place where whenever we do make out, it feels like it should or is supposed to lead to sex. So, like, how could you do this?

So that's exactly why you should consider doing this. Like, if you're in that place where you feel the expectation, the pressure for it to lead to more, that's exactly why you should consider this.

Yeah. Because that you're in a place where basically you are going to inherently make out less and less and less as more and more time goes on. You're going to have less kissing and less emotional intimacy because you are refusing to face that. That connection.

Yeah. So you want to break that connection. That making out is supposed to lead to sex. So if you're feeling like, you know, it just feels too high pressure or too high intensity, like, you can start with more cuddling at first. Like, if just the making out feels like that connection's so strong, back it down. And like, do, you know, just cuddling or hugging or something like that. But again, it's like. Like, if you have that connection, you gotta break it.

And I think the other thing is, like, yeah, if you're gonna work in something like cuddling, too, and, you know, you are worried that there is this really strong connection, is working in a lot of compliments with that cuddling. Like, any type of physical affection that you start doing, and it's not leading to sex. It's like, hey, it's so nice that we get to do this. I feel. I get. I love feeling this close to you more regularly. I think that that really helps, too, so that it's, you know, not feeling like, oh, like, why. Why is my partner all of a sudden cuddling me more? Why is this happening? It's just. It's a nice way to lay the groundwork, to kind of bump it up to the kissing suit.

Okay, so let's talk next about the expectation aspect of it because this was another area where we got like, this is one of the top two, you know, areas of questions that we got. So I want to read to you a bunch of different questions that we got, ranging in intensity. So we start off with simple, like, you know, people were asking, like, well, how long did it take before feeling like there wasn't this expectation of sex? One person wrote, I'm the low drive person in the relationship, and I'm worried that the first few nights he's going to think it'll lead to sex. And that stresses me out. Another person said, my husband doesn't understand how to not want sex after kissing. A couple of other people said, like, my husband hates it when it doesn't go anywhere after. What do we do then? Or that would blue ball my husband. And then we got this really intense one. This person wrote, it would spark rage in all caps, all caps, if it didn't seamlessly, no question, no hesitation, lead to intercourse.

Can I cover that last one first?

Sure.

Leave. Literally pack your bags and leave. Right? Like, this is. This is not a healthy relationship to be in. If this is, if this is your partner, this is not safe for you. And I hate to say it, but that's just. That's just like the biggest red flag, alarm bells, glaring thing that this is not going to get. Get better unless they deal with their rage issue on their own and unfortunately not with you in the picture.

And yeah, it's unacceptable to rage at somebody for not being open to sex at any point at any like that. It's just completely.

Yeah, I mean, that's like emotional and likely sexual abuse.

Okay, so I know that was an intense one. I wanted to include like a bunch of different, you know, varieties of questions all along this topic of expectation.

All right, so, yeah, let's go back to the beginning and easier.

Let's go to the back to the easier.

Let's ease our way into this.

Okay, so of course we understand, like, expectation is something that comes up around this. If you've had that connection that we only kiss when we're having sex, or we only, you know, when we kiss, that's the lead up to sex. Like, of course you're gonna feel a little bit anxious or worried about, like, okay, but so, like, what, what happens with this? And like Xander was saying earlier, like, this did come up for us of like, okay, wait, but I am getting turned on. And like, what do we do? And does she actually just want this to just be kissing? Or are we supposed to lead to more? So, like, there is some of that dynamic there. So I want to talk a bit about, like, practically, if you're interested in trying out the nightly makeout, like, how to get this set up. So if you have any sort of concern about the expectation, our recommendation is to make a firm rule that it does not lead to anything more for a set period of time. And this is what we did initially. I can't remember the exact timeline that we did this. I think it was somewhere around a month. I said, I want to just make out. I don't care if either one of us gets turned on and wants more. I really want us to have this experience of just making out for the sake of making out. So it was very explicitly set up that way from the very beginning, which put us, you know, made sure we were on the same page. Of course, like Xander was saying, there was still a little bit of that.

Like, it takes a little time to unwind that. I think it took probably for me, it took a couple weeks.

Yeah.

But just half that time.

Having that expectation right at the beginning, I think was really important for us. And one thing that we even did in that very early stage, like, there were a few times that we both got turned on and wanted more, and we actually just made ourselves get up out of bed and, like, spend a couple seconds outside of bed and then get back into bed and kind of, like, reset. It was like, okay, we did the makeout. That's the end of the makeout. We did our ritual. We're, like, breaking this up, going somewhere else, and then we come back together and, like, actually started.

Ooh, that make out gave me a little zing.

A little thing. Xander's been, okay, this is, like, deep cut for pillow talks listeners. You made so much fun of me, like, months ago for saying something gave me a zing. But Xander has been saying it gave him a zing for, like, the last week.

Yeah, you know, I'm slow on the uptake. You know, I'm slowing the uptake, but.

Now it's catching on.

I actually really like it.

So the hot.

Yeah. Yeah. If you get a little zing, then. Yeah, then just give yourself a moment to unzing.

Okay, so make it a rule. Say, I like. I don't want us to have it lead to anything more. I really want us to have this experience of just making out for the sake of making out. And, like, it might even help to tell your partner, be like, this is not reverse psychology. This is not me being, like, you know, we're not supposed to have sex, but secretly I want you to initiate sex. Like, be really clear with your partner of like, I just want to have this experience.

Yeah. And I mean, I think we're going to talk in a second about, you know, after that set period of time, like what can happen and what our experience with this has been. I think, you know, if you're hope, you know, hopefully you play this, this episode for your partner. I think that you know it for a set amount of time. Yeah. You might be dealing with some discomfort or I don't even know. Discomfort is not even the right word. But just some, you know, it can create some charge and maybe it's not. Things aren't going to go in the direction that you're used to them going in. But I think long term there are some huge benefits for your sex life. And long term, this, you know, disconnecting these two things. As much as you might think, oh, well, what are you trying to make it so that, like, I just don't want sex anymore. It's actually the opposite. Like, actually this practice will ca. Will most likely cause you both to want sex more, to prioritize sex more, and to be more in tune with. With your own needs.

Okay, so let's talk about what happens if somebody gets turned on. Because this was such a big fear that was coming up for a lot of people. So here's the thing. Your partner is allowed to get turned on whenever they get turned on. We cannot control when we get turned on.

Yep. Just like in everyday life, you never know when it's. That thought's gonna strike you.

Yeah. So it's okay for your partner to get turned on. And that doesn't mean that it's being disrespectful to you or it's not obeying the rules of what the whole makeout routine is. Even in the beginning of it, like your partner is just allowed to get turned on. This came up in particular from women really worried about their male partners. Like, he's gonna get hard, though. You know what? He gets hard all the frickin time.

Yeah. You just don't know about it.

Well, and just because he gets hard does not mean that you have to do anything about it. Like a hard penis. If he's hard, he can take care of it himself or it'll just go away on its own.

Yeah. It also takes care of itself on its own pretty quickly.

Yeah. It's not like it's this like helpless penis, like, oh my God, I'm Hard. And now you must take care of me.

Yeah. I won't get soft again until, like, you touch it. Like, no, it just goes away pretty quickly.

Yeah. Especially this whole concept of blue balls is so ridiculous. It creates so much pressure on people. Like, so we really need to dispel it. We've talked about this before on the podcast as well. Like, there really is no such thing as blue balls. Nobody's balls are actually turning blue. It's not causing, like, excruciating pain. Like, when you get turned on and you don't have a release. Sure, there is a little bit of a. Like, I wanted that. But you know what you can do very easily if you're feeling frustrated or there is some tension or you just really wanted to have a release. You have two hands that can take care of that penis. Release those balls very easily, very quickly. It does not mean that your partner, or you as the partner, is obligated to take care of it.

Yeah. And I think the other thing that I want to say about this is that that discomfort or whatever that Vanessa was just describing it, it is relatively proportionate to the amount of time that you have been kind of continuously turned on without it leading to anything more. I think a lot of people get this somehow this idea that, like, oh, he got hard for a minute, for a couple of minutes, and now all of a sudden he's gonna get blue balls. No, that's not how it works. The only time in my entire life that I have ever felt that sort of discomfort in my groin area after not having an orgasm was the night that Vanessa and I met and we made out for six hours. I walked her home in the middle of the night. I came back home and was about to go to bed, and I was like, like, oh, this feels a little uncomfortable. You know what I did? I masturbated. And it felt better right afterwards, and that was that. And that's the only time I have ever had that experience in my life. So all the, you know, all the men out there that are complaining about blue balls, sorry, dudes, it's bullshit. And to all the women out there that are worried about it, like, if you are going to. If you are going to make out for many hours, if that's what you want this ritual to be, maybe that could be an issue, but that is not what we are advocating here. Also, I just want to blow your mind a little bit on the blue balls thing. And if you're really worried about. About boners not leading to orgasms and any discomfort that would cause your male partner is hard for a lot of the night when he is sleeping.

On average, men actually have five erections a night. And each one of those lasts about half an hour.

Oh, my God, half an hour. Hold the presses. So that's like five blue balls a night. By this logic of, like, the make. Like, okay, how is your. How is your make out? We're not saying that you should make out for 30 minutes. Like, if he got an erection, it's not going to last that long. Like, he's getting that hard or more hard for longer in his sleep every single night. And does he wake up like a maniac who, like, needs a release? No, he doesn't. And you probably had no idea that this was happening. He's probably not told you that that's happening. And he's probably not told you that's happening because it is not causing. Causing him any discomfort. So, so sorry. For all those of you that Say kissing for 30 seconds is going to give you blue balls, I'm calling.

Well, I'll also say, like, even if it does cause some tension or some discomfort, you can very easily take care of that on your own with your hands. So it's nothing to make your partner feel bad about.

And it's also, like, I think ultimately it's like, that's the sexual tension thing that we have been talking about. And I think that can actually be a healthy thing to share with your partner, too. Of like, oh, yeah, like, I am, you know, definitely, you know, hey, that turned me on. Like, kissing you is. Is. Is hot for me. It makes me. It makes me want you. And it can be a discussion of, like, oh, well, like, hey, like, when is the next time that we can have sex? Like, let's make a plan for how we can make the sex happen. Because I really want you. I like you. I like having sex with you and I want you.

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, let's see if we can enjoy the tension or enjoy the tease, especially in that early stage. If you're making, like, a rule of it's not allowed to lead to anything more like, let yourself experience that little bit of a tease and, like, enjoy it. The zing. Get the zing. Okay, so going back to this general theme of, like, the expectation of sex that this creates, I think this is also a reflection of the ways that we really struggle with initiation.

Oh, yeah.

Like, if we're not being clear with our initiation, like, all these moments where there's any sort of contact, like, this is what a Lot of the bristle reaction is about is like, I can feel that you're wanting to initiate or you're trying to push the kiss to lead to more.

The assumptions.

Yeah, I'm uncomfortable and I'm drawing away and I'm bristling. All this kind of stuff, stuff can happen. So we are going to link our course, the Art of Initiation in the show notes for you. This teaches you how to navigate desire and how to navigate initiating sex in a relationship. So learning how to more skillfully initiate, how to make initiation feel like an actual invitation to your partner that they want to say yes to and not just like a I think he's trying to initiate, I don't really want it and let me pull away kind of thing. And it also leads you through how to navigate those moments when one of you wants to be intimate and one of you does not. Because that's a very frequent thing that happens in a long term relationship. It's not a bad thing. It's not a sign that you're incompatible. It's just a reality of being in a relationship. And it's so crucial for couples to understand how to navigate these moments. Like for you, if it's your partner who's the one who's feeling desire, for you to understand that it doesn't matter if your partner wants sex, if you don't want to, you don't need to like, you don't need to create this pressure on yourself or like force yourself to have sex. But really understanding in those moments, like, how do we navigate that, how do we communicate? How do we actually maintain intimacy rather than completely shutting ourselves down, like making our partner feel rejected. This is just like, initiation is one of the most important skills that couples need to learn. And unfortunately none of us know how to do it. So we're super passionate about this course and how important it is. And we will link that for you down in the show notes. Okay, I want to read this next question. The thing holding me back is lip balm. I like to wash my hands after applying it. And we got some similar questions. They were like some very logistical questions. A lot of other people were like, not after I've done my skincare routine, like, he's not kissing me, he's gonna wipe all my, my creams and stuff off. So I just gotta say, and I will say this as somebody who has an extensive nighttime routine and very expensive creams and balms and the whole stuff, guys, we gotta prioritize intimacy with our partner over skin cream and lip balm.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, the positive impact that. That emotional intimacy will have on you long term, I think will outweigh the use. The use of those skin products. Yeah. Honestly, the better you're gonna get, better sleep, you're gonna feel better, you're gonna be more calm, you know, like, less cortisol, more oxytocin. Like, those things actually are going to make a huge difference. The skin care is like a band aid to the flesh wound. Like, let's fix the flesh wound.

Wow. No, I mean, I agree with you, though. Like, having that connection, prioritizing connection with our partner is going to have such a bigger long term effect on aging and all of that. But, like, just the logistical stuff of this. Like, and again, I get it. Like, I've had times where we've made out and I can feel you. I'm like, I gotta apply my lip balm again. I'm gonna have to do the second thing. Or, like, my cream's coming off. Like, I do understand it, but it's just not as important as our connection with our partner. So rejigger your nighttime routine however you need to. Maybe, like, making out the very last thing in bed just isn't gonna work for your schedule. That's fine.

Do it another time.

Make out on the couch before you go into the bathroom, and then do your nighttime routine. Like, it's fine. Make adjustments, but don't prioritize your lip balm over your partner.

Also, what about some chapstick? I'm holding some chapstick in my hand right here. Doesn't require getting my hands dirty or not dirty, but, like, lip balm all over my hand. I'm assuming the only thing you do.

I have one I apply with my.

Fingers is I like to wash my hands after applying. So it's all over your fingers. But I mean, just put some chapstick on. Oh, that was easy. Right now, here, I'll give you some asmr. Oh, that didn't make a good click when I closed it. Darn it. All right. And finally, is it okay if it leads to sex more often than not?

Okay, so this depends on where you are in the process. If you're just starting it or you're curious about starting it and you feel nervous about the expectation of it leading to more. I say make the rule where you're not allowed to for the first month or however long it is. But if you've been doing it for a while and you're enjoying it, then I think it is fine. If it does lead to sex But I think you want to just be thoughtful about making sure you're continuing to have more non sexual physical intimacy. So the whole point of why we started this and why we recommend it is because we think it's important to have some physical intimacy that's separate from sex. So if you're finding like, okay, this is just leading to sex, like, the vast majority of the time, like, just do something else. Like maybe it's more cuddles during the day or hugs during the day or, or you kiss each other hello and goodbye, like, just add something else. But I mean, I'll say for us, like, it does often lead to sex as well. We're still very clear with each other that, like, that's not the point of it. And I think we have been so inspired by how much we've enjoyed the nightly makeout that we are now making out during the day a lot more often and like touching each other throughout the day a lot more often. So we've like, we do both things. But I would say, yeah, if it's, it's just leading to sex for you, add something else in.

Yeah, I mean, what I have found with this whole experience is that I am so much more tuned in to my body and my experience when I'm making out with Vanessa. I'm much more. I'm. I feel like I am much more able to be quickly turned on and get in the mood because I'm like, oh, this kissing, this is really nice. Like, I'm tuned into the sensation of that and it's like, oh, this is really nice. And if I'm finding myself regularly during that nightly makeout session, like, oh, like, wow, this is really getting me going. That's actually what I found is that's a really good sign that like, I'm not prioritizing sex enough earlier in the day. That's like a good sign to me of like, oh, I think that I, you know, I have a stronger desire for sex than I have been sort of acting on or initiating. And so that's a good sign for me of, ah, okay, let's, you know, do I need to make some better space sometime earlier in the day to have sex with Vanessa? Now when we do end up having sex, you know, because of the, or not because of, but following or in, you know, continuing on the makeout routine into sex because it's right before bed, usually that turns into pretty much like a quickie, I would say, right? Like, it's not, it's not usually like, because, you know, at that Point. It's like, we're ready for bed. We're usually pretty tired by the time you go to bed. So, like, we're not really wanting to spend a lot of time having sex. And so I'm like, you know, that's not like the only type of sex that, that I want to be having is sort of that super quick. Like, okay, yeah, let's, let's get this done so we can go to sleep. So yeah, sometimes it does lead to sex, but really for me, it just leads to more awareness of like, oh, yeah, what are my needs? Oh, am I, am I wanting to have more sex? Like, okay, let me make sure that I'm helping Vanessa out so that during the day there's a good slot of time that we could do that in. Or what does my schedule look like tomorrow? How can I kind of carry over this energy that I'm feeling now into tomorrow? Or think back to this memory of, oh yeah, remember once you started kissing her for a couple seconds, you got really turned on. Let's try that again at 6 o' clock instead of at 9 o'. Clock.

All right. And let's wrap this up with some notes from you guys about how trying the nightly makeout has helped your relationship.

I discovered you because of this reel. It has completely changed our sex life for the better.

We just started trying it out a few nights ago and we feel like teenagers again.

We love it. I get butterflies for my partner of six years every time.

I thought this one was so creative and interesting and perfect example of what we say about, like, take our content and like our tips and ideas and make it your own. Like, you don't have to do anything exactly the way that we say it. But this person said, we live in a high rise building and have adopted it for elevator rides. If no one else is in it with us, we go to town for the length of the ride.

Love it.

That's so great.

That's so good.

I love that.

Tried it. Loved it. No more bristle effect. And we are way more intimate now.

This is how I found you guys. And our sex life has totally transformed because of it. We don't do it so formally, but adding in more non sexual intimate touch has boosted my libido and lessened my bristle reaction. So with that one, we didn't talk too much about the libido boosting effect of it because that wasn't really a part of our story. But this was something that we heard from so many people who tried it. They were like, you know, I didn't realize how much I was missing making out, how much I love making out, and what it a huge turn on it is for me.

Yeah. And like, conversely, it's like you're suppressing your libido in a way by suppressing doing things that bring you emotional intimacy, that bring you that sexual zing.

Sexual zing. I keep thinking about how we need to come up with a name for our Nightly. And like, we can't just call it the Nightly Makeout, but like, Nightly Zing. Nightly zing.

I was actually, I was actually thinking.

That sounds so cheesy.

You know what I was thinking though? I was thinking that we. You've still not come up with a good name for pillow Talks listeners. And I was like, we call them the Zingers. No.

Okay, well, if you have any great ideas for either of those names, what we call the Nightly makeout or what we call you, our beloved listeners, DM us on Instagram, Vanessa and Xander.

All right, this person said boyfriend and I did it every night and noticed huge changes in intimacy and connection. Then when we stopped, we felt a major disconnect. Once we started again, we were back on track. I like this. Basically, like a little, you know, scientific study. Control test. Control test.

And the last one. Best change ever in our 45 year relationship.

Hell yeah.

I love that. That's so freaking cool. All right, well, we hope that this has inspired you to give the Nightly Makeout a try, whether it's following it exactly how we did it, or putting your own unique little twist on it. And we would love to hear from you if you do give this a try. Come on over to Instagram or at Vanessa and Xander. Let us know how it goes. Let us know if there are any other questions that we didn't get to in this episode. But yeah, we'd love to have you as a part of our community on Instagram, if you're not already following us there. We post lots of fun content. We have clips of the podcast. We just started recording it, so you can come see us recording. Maybe we'll do. We'll do a video of Xander's sensual chapstick mid podcast recording application. We. We do little clips and of course, tons of information that we don't cover on the podcast as well. Just like that viral reel that this whole episode is about. So we are at Vanessa and Xander. That's Xander with an X on Instagram. And we will also link the art of initiation course for you down in the show. Notes, Notes.

Well, that's it. For today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we do the second edition of Dead Bedrooms.