Episode 148: “Help Me See Where My Partner Is Coming From!” (Advice Episode)

She had me for 90% of this until she said he asked for this a couple times a year. To be fair, I was thinking when I was reading this that this was like a once a month, multiple times a month kind of thing. But we're talking a couple of times a year. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular, regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Earth Breeze for supporting Pillow Talks right now. Save 40% when you subscribe to Earth Breeze. Go to Earth Breeze.com pillow to get started for today's episode, we turned to Instagram and we put up a question box that said tell us something that you and your partner have been arguing about where you just can't understand their perspective.

What the hell are they even thinking anyway?

Yeah, like you guys have talked about it, you've argued about it, they've expressed themselves and you just don't get why is it that they are thinking what they're thinking, feeling the way that they're feeling. Like you've tried but you just cannot understand.

Why are you the way that you are?

That should be the title of this episode.

Yeah, why? Why are you the way that you are? I think that's a classic Michael Scott line from the Office. Who is it that he's talking to? Somebody to. Oh, to Toby. Why are you the way that you are?

So we thought it would just be really interesting to take these situations and break them down. We really love working with real life ex and I think it's interesting to get this sneak peek into other couples relationships too. Like what are the things that other couples are fighting about, the issues that they just cannot resolve between themselves. So we gathered up a ton of responses and in this week's episode we are going to be breaking them down for you. So we're going to be sharing some hot takes, sharing some communication tips and really helping you get inside side your partner's mind and heart and ultimately try to understand them better.

We also might not be able to help ourselves from providing a couple tips for both of you or maybe more one than the other to get through the Situation. To get over the situation. Because that's kind of what we do. We can't really help ourselves. Right?

Yeah.

But first we are going to make you understand.

Oh, aggressive.

Yeah. Because I'm going to read it to you and you're going to have to listen to what somebody else thinks about our podcast. That was really weird. I'm going to rerecord that.

No, just go with it.

That was super awkward.

Just go with it.

I'm going to make you. I'm going to help you understand just how amazing this podcast is by reading one of our reviews. Our review of the week. Just toot my own horn here. This is a must for anyone in a relationship. Wife and I have a great line of communication, but this podcast has done nothing but improve us. We. Whether relationship or bedroom advice. It has helped us come closer together while increasing intimacy in the bedroom. If you like this podcast, you need to read their book Sex Talks and complete the workbooks with your partner. We're just past the halfway point of the book and have come together and learned so much more about each other, even after 20 plus years of dating and marriage.

Oh, this is like a two for one review of the podcast and the book.

Yeah, I mean, if you are listening to this, whoever wrote this, it would also be incredible if you drop this as a review for our book, Sex Talks on Amazon, because that is a ringing endorsement and all those reviews help us so much.

I know that sounds very needy to ask for reviews in multiple places, but reviews really do help so much. They help our podcast get in front of new people. The book get in front of new people. So we do a little giveaway every week in the podcast to say thank you for taking the time to leave a review. So here's how it works. Go over to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see the review section there. Just write a quick review and you will automatically be entered into our weekly giveaway every week going forward. So if you hear your review read in an episode, just reach out to us@infomtherapy.com to claim your prize. All right, so before we even start reading some of our examples here, I have to say I was kind of surprised by the submissions that we got. Like, we tried to be really clear when we posted it. Like, the point of this episode is that we want to help you see your partner's perspective. We want to support you, give you some advice and some tips here. But in the vast majority of examples that people sent in it was pretty obvious that they actually didn't really want to see their partner's point of view. Like, the situations were written pretty harshly. I'll say of like, my partner's an idiot. They're so dumb. How could they think this? Here's the way they messed up, here's why they're so wrong. There was no curiosity in it.

No, like, openness for understanding.

Yeah, like, I. Yeah, I'm really struggling to get it, but, like, I want to understand. And let's be real. Like, we have all had arguments in relationships where you're like, I cannot understand how you think the way you think. Like, I've thought that about Xander plenty of times with all my tools, with my training, being a therapist, there have been times where I'm like, I cannot for the life of me understand your perspective in this. So I get it. Like, nobody's perfect in this. But I do think we need to be careful about the tone that comes out around it. Like, it's one thing to think like, God, I am so perplexed, but it's another to kind of cross that line into my partner's so wrong. They're such an idiot. How could they possibly believe that? Like, there was just a. Yeah, there was a. A contempt and a condescension that came across in a lot of the responses.

And I'd imagine that if you're on the flip side of that energy, like, you are a partner who thinks something or does something and you know that your partner doesn't understand, doesn't want to understand. Whenever you talk about it, it's just like running into a brick wall. Like, what incentive do you have to really, like, want to change either? I feel like it kind of just creates a bit of a stalemate type of situation.

And we even posted the question a second time on Instagram and said, like, okay, guys, here's the deal. We're only taking submissions where we can tell that there's a genuine curiosity to understand your partner's perspective. Like, this is not just a hey, vent about your partner episode. And it's not a like, who's the asshole? Episode. We do have those episodes where we're like, am I the asshole or is my partner the asshole in this situation? This is a, like, I want to understand my partner's perspective. And even in that case, like, even with more of that explanation, still, the vast majority of the responses did not show any sort of curiosity about the partner's perspective. It was very one sided and very venting. So I wanted to Just kind of start off by saying that I think we could all benefit from approaching conflict with a little bit more curiosity, really having a desire to understand our partner's perspective. And again, like I said a minute ago, I've had tons of personal experience with Xander of, like, I cannot understand how you got there. I cannot understand. So I get that this can be really challenging sometimes. But I think the important thing for us to remember is that we get into relationships because we really want to feel seen and understood. And that's one of the most special intimate experiences that you get to have with your partner when you feel like they really see you. And so then here we get into these conflicts and we're so fast to just really dig into our own experience. Like, I'm right here, and you can't possibly be right, and I don't even want to try to understand what your experience is. And we completely lose that connection of trying to see each other. So that's where, for me, like, the curiosity piece of this comes in. Yes, it's going to be hard. Yes, it's going to feel really baffling to you sometimes. Yes, of course you're going to have that part of you that just wants to be right. But can you lean into a little bit of curiosity if you are just so mind boggled by your partner's experience? Can you ask yourself, like, okay, what am I missing here? What questions could I ask my partner? What ways could I soften my approach here? What about my perspective? Could I share in a different way with my partner? So just trying to. If you bring that a little bit of curiosity into these conversations, I think it's going to go a really long way.

Also, I want to point out that bringing curiosity into a conflict or just into a disagreement or another person's perspective, that doesn't mean that you need to agree with them. And I think a lot of us forget about that because I think that a lot of us feel this temptation to make the jump from, okay, well, if I start to try to ask any questions or start to try to understand a little bit about someone else's perspective, whether that's my partner, whether that's somebody saying something on social media, whether it's something in the news or whatever, I think that we think, oh, my God, then I'm gonna have to agree with them. And, like, you don't have to agree. I can understand all kinds of things that Vanessa might think or understand ways that other people think about things. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can have empathy for them and understanding. Okay, this is what is going on for them.

So we're aiming for understanding, not for agreement. Like you want to try to understand and see your partner's perspective. But like Xander's saying, that doesn't mean that you have to agree. And I think what's most crucial here is that there's space for both people to be quote unquote, right. Like your experience is valid and real simply because it's your experience. Your partner's experience is valid and real simply because it's their experience. And it doesn't mean that there's only room for one right experience here. Like, we often approach conflict from this place of scarcity.

Yeah, there's one. There's one right and one wrong.

There's one wrong, and we are battling it out for the right spot, the top dog spot. But conflict takes on a totally different energy when you can recognize that there's space for both of your experiences to be valid. All right, let's get off our soapboxes though, and dig into these interesting conflicts.

Yeah, get off the soapboxes. Let's get dirty.

Let's get down and dirty.

Throw that soap away.

Okay, here's the first one. A reoccurring conversation my fiance and I continue to have centers around me placing too much intention on his inaction. I anticipate my fiance's needs and actively try to make his life easier, even sometimes when I don't have much to give, which is a whole other conversation. Lol.

Let's get back to that.

Uh huh. We sure will. But sometimes I want him to do the same for me too. To lessen my plate without me having to ask.

We got a podcast episode about that, don't we?

I've expressed this to him a few times to let him know it makes me feel unheard and unimportant when he doesn't implement it. But he explains it as something that is not innate for him and he truly, genuinely forgets or does not think about it. And it's not because he doesn't care about me, but it's because his plate is full and his mind is occupied. Candidly, he is much better at setting boundaries and knowing his limits than I am. We will also come back to this. I don't place intention when I haven't expressed something to him before because he's not a mind reader. But once I point something out and it doesn't happen, I do start to place some intention behind the inaction. It feels like it doesn't matter enough to him, I know for a fact that there's no maliciousness and he's not trying to hurt me. He's incredibly overworked, is a pillar for many in his family and for so many of his friends, and truly juggles a lot. He tells me it's just not how he thinks, not how he shows attentiveness or his love, and that he wants to authentically show up for me. He also says he genuinely forgets and the person who wrote this in was a woman. So our task here is to help her understand what is his perspective here. So there are a couple of things that jump out at me about this one. First, she didn't send over any specific examples. Like, as I was reading this, and this is a little behind the scenes on the recording it, I had to stop and redo it. So several times because it's so convoluted, like it was difficult to read. And I wonder if that is coming out in how she's trying to talk to him too. It's just. It's kind of all over the place and there's nothing specific to hold on to.

Yeah, I'm wondering what he. It sounds like she's saying, oh, I've talked to him about this a number of times. I really wonder what he's actually heard or taken away from that. I'd be so curious if we were able to ask him. Okay, so what is, like, what have you heard in these conversations?

Yeah, like, what are the things that she wants you to do that will make her feel loved and cared for?

Yeah. Because the interesting thing here is that it does. She says here, I want him to do the same for me too, to lessen my plate without me having to ask. I've expressed this to him and let him know. Yeah. So, like, if all she has said to him is, I want you to do things without me asking. And that's the conversation. I don't think that's enough. So I think what he takes. So his perspective is. I don't really understand what you're asking. It's obviously. This is obviously something important because I'm guessing this was a somewhat, you know, emotionally charged, like a serious sounding conversation at the very least, you know, especially if you're saying, like, I feel unheard and unimportant when you don't do these things. And so it sounds like he really cares about her. You know, he really loves her. He's. He's her partner. He obviously cares about a lot of people. It sounds like. Sounds like he's A really good friend, really good family member. So I imagine that he's in a bit of a bind in. He's. He's hearing that you are expressing a need to him, but it feels like probably it's a really squishy gray area, like, unclear kind of thing that you're expressing. I want you to do stuff. I'm not gonna tell you what it is. I'm not gonna tell you when it is that I want it, but. And if you don't do that, I'm gonna feel really bad.

And there's also a lot of contradiction in here too. Like, you just read the part where she says, like, I want him to do things without me having to ask. But then later on she says, like, I know that he's not a mind reader, but it's like, but you're. Those are conflicting things, like, you're wanting him to be a mind reader. So it's like she believes, maybe rationally, like, I get the whole thing that our partners can't be mind readers, but secretly I want him to read my mind and do all those things.

Yeah. I think it's almost like what I'm hearing here is that she's like, okay, look, I know he's not a mind reader. So, like, I know that he won't just do everything I want without me having to ask. But here's my. Here's my trick. It's kind of like the trick where you're like, okay, if, you know, if you get a genie in a bottle and you got three wishes, what do you wish for? And you go, okay, my first wish is to have unlimited wish wishes. Is she's doing the same thing where she's like, okay, I know he can't just read my mind, but if I tell him I want him to read my mind, that's my, like, way around it. Yeah, that's like. That's the loophole. So, I mean, in terms of what his, you know, what she has written in, that's kind of what it sounds like she's done.

I also do get very curious about, like, you know, I'm doing all this stuff to anticipate his needs, actively try to make his life easier, even when I don't have much to give. And she clearly knows that this is the problem because she said, this is a whole other conversation. Lol. So I think that there might also be some resentment starting to creep into this. Like, I'm working myself, I'm working overtime when I don't even have anything to give to make your life easier, and you're not doing it for me. So his perspective might be like, I don't want that to be the energy in our relationship.

Yeah. I doubt he's asking you to do that.

Yeah. And he might feel uncomfortable of, like, I can see that you don't have, you know, much to give, but you're still going really overboard to do these things for me. And, like, I don't really want that. And I don't want that same expectation of me. Because that's the thing. Like, when you are extending your own boundaries, like, violating your own boundaries to take care of other people, it seems like it's this very selfless thing, like, oh, I'm just. I've sacrificed myself for others. But you want that in return.

Yeah, I do.

You want that sacrificing. You want somebody else to sacrifice their boundaries in return. Like, that's the bar that you've set.

Yeah. You apply that expectation to others, and that is that, like, when you have an expectation of other people that can't possibly be met, that is. That is, like, the definition of how resentment occurs when, like, you create an expectation that isn't. That is too high or not possible or it's not communicated. You set everybody else up to not meet that.

Yeah.

And then you start to feel resentful. Oh, well, why doesn't everybody just do it the way I do it?

And she points out, like, he's much better at setting boundaries and knowing his limits than I am.

Yeah. I wonder if maybe there's a bit of resentment about that, too. Like, you know, I struggle to set boundaries. I do all these things for other people. And, God, my partner is so good at it.

Yeah. So I think part of understanding this partner's perspective is like, yeah, he does have a better, healthier understanding of how he wants to show up in the world for the people that he loves and cares about.

And.

And so, you know, just because he's not going above and beyond or sacrificing himself doesn't mean that he's not showing you his love. So I would do a couple of things. I would get really specific about what you want. What are the specific things you want him to do to help you feel loved and cared for? And it cannot be things like anticipating my needs. So, look, I will say, when Xander anticipate something ahead of time, and he just, like a small example, like, brings me a cup of tea, like, here, I made this for you. And I'm like, oh, what a man. He just knew that I would want Some of this tea, like, those are some good moments. I will tell you that.

And the reality is I wanted. I wanted some tea, so I made some tea. And, you know, I make two cups.

But we cannot expect that of our partner. Those have to be the, like, cherry on the sundae types of moments, not the, like, oh, secretly I want my partner to just, like, constantly be tracking me and anticipating my needs and always doing the things before I even have to ask for them. That's like some Disney romance, like, fairytale bullshit that's creeping into us. It's not how real relationships work. So get specific about what are the things that you want him to do to make you feel loved and cared for and focus really on, like, simple things that he could do on a daily basis. I think having some sort of ritual around this is really helpful. And I would also ask him, like, what are the ways that you do show me your love so that you can recognize that I'm sure he is doing things already to show his affection, to show his care, to show how much he loves you. But because they're not the specific, mind ready, anticipatory things that you're looking for, maybe you're not recognizing them all right now.

I also want to call out something for. For the partner, too. I don't know if the partner is listening to this, but I just think, you know, this is really valuable too. I just kind of got my spidey senses going at the end where he says, he tells me it's just not how he thinks, not how he shows attentiveness and his love and that he wants to authentically show up. For me, this is a trap that so many of us fall into is like, I just want it to be authentic. I just want it to be natural. I just want it to be spontaneous. And it's great that we have more of this kind of, like, love language terminology where we have an understanding that, like, oh, we're all wired differently. We all like to give and receive love in different ways. And unfortunately, we stop right there and we go, okay, so therefore, I just want to do it in my natural way. I can explain to you now why my natural way isn't your natural way. Or, like, you know, maybe why I'm not meeting your needs, but I just want it to be authentic. And, hey, that's great if you are with a partner with the exact same love language, perhaps. But the reality is, you know, throughout life, you are going to be dealing with people and probably in a partnership with people that don't have that exact same way that you authentically or naturally show love. And just because it's not natural to you or just because it's not authentic to you doesn't mean that you still can't do it. And I think that this person could set some reminders for themselves. That's the simplest thing, is, like, just set a reminder for yourself once a week of, like, oh, don't do this for my partner. You know, this is after you've had the conversation where she has told him very specifically, here are some things that I would love for you to do for me on a regular basis. If, you know, okay, this isn't the most natural thing for me. All you have to do to start to make it more natural for you is create some structure around that, set some reminders. And I know that there's that immediate cognitive dissonance of, like, oh, but this is natural for me. This isn't who I am. We do all kinds of things in life that are not natural to us, that are not who you are. Do you think you were, like, born to work a corporate job 40 hours a week or to go to school or, like, all these things? Like, no, we were born to do some very specific things.

Breathe. Fart.

Yeah. Make babies.

I guess if you really think about it, there are very few things in life that are natural.

Yeah. So I think that that's just. That's just an excuse. Oh. I just want to do it in the authentic way for me. And, look, I want to validate this guy. It sounds like his authentic way of showing up is really great for a lot of people, like, outside of his relationship, his friends, his family. That is awesome. I'm not telling you to change that at all. What I am telling you is to be a better partner for your partner is just creating a little bit of structure to help remind you to do things that come a little less naturally for you. And probably after a couple of months of that, you will find that those things do start to come more naturally.

Okay. And I also want to talk about the heart of this question here is, like, what does it mean when we've told our partner we want them to do something and they're not taking action on it? And I will say from personal experience, this is a trap that I have fallen into as well. There have been plenty of times in our relationship where I've told Xander I wanted him to do something and he didn't do it. And I started to make this meaning in my head. What does it mean that he's not doing it. Oh, he doesn't really care about me. He thinks it's ridiculous that I want this. He's judging me. Like, all these webs that we can start to spin. But this is a really good example of the fundamental attribution error.

Classic psychology 101.

Think about it. Let's think of something that your partner has asked you to do that you have struggled to follow through on. And let's think about why have you struggled to follow through? Like, you probably come up with things like, oh, shoot, like, yeah, I know that my partner asked me to have a lunch date with them last week, but I got really busy and we had to pick up the kids and it was raining, and, oh, we couldn't find agree on a place to go out to lunch or whatever. Like, we come up with a lot of really seemingly understandable justifications and reasons. We don't go immediately to, oh, I didn't follow through because I don't love my partner.

Yeah, when negative things happen to or like, you know, when we're confronted with something potentially negative about ourselves, we are so much more likely to attribute it to an external. An external factor rather than an internal factor. However.

However, when it's our partner, we are much more likely to come up with this deeper meaning. We don't give them that same grace of, oh, they were super busy that day, or this is something new for them that it's probably gonna take a little bit of time for them to get into the habit of, or they were feeling really sick. Like, we go to. They don't really care about me. So we need to check that tendency within our own brain and recognize, like, I don't need to make this meaning out of it for my partner. Let me give them the same grace and the same understanding that I give to myself.

Yeah, there's been tons and tons and tons of research done on this in so many different contexts. And basically, yeah, it's like, when good things happen to us, we are more likely to attribute it to something internal. Like, oh, I'm a smart person. I got an A on the test. But when something good happens to someone else, we're more likely to attribute it to an external circumstance. Like, oh, well, they got lucky. I studied really hard, but they got lucky. And then it's the flip side. Like Vanessa was saying, when something negative happens, something negative happens to me. Oh, yeah, it was the situation. It wasn't me. But if something negative happens to someone else, it's like, oh, well, that's because, like, they're not very smart, they're a bad person, whatever. So it's just this fundamental bias that we have, and the more we're aware of that, we're never going to get rid of it. But the more we're aware of it, the easier it is to kind of check ourselves and be like, oh, yeah, that thing is coming up for me again.

All right, let's move on to the next one. My partner and I argue about our differing needs for affection. Let me give you some context. In the last year and a half, I've entered menopause. Before that, my need for affection was not very intense. I didn't even really like kissing, and my libido was not very high. Once I went off birth control and started menopause, my libido went sky high. But more importantly, I needed more affection from my husband. I went from having a love language of gifts to one of physical touches. I feel very confident about myself sexually and as a woman and am seeking affirmation from him through physical touch. I want to feel desired. My libido is super high, and I am constantly in need of kissing, hugging, touching, and sex. His point of view is that this has been a recent and dramatic change, and it's taken him time to get adjusted. He says that my need for so much affection can feel overwhelming to him, and he feels pressured by my need for physical touch and my higher libido. Okay, so, Xander, what's your take? Like, how do we explain this partner's perspective?

I mean, I think that the perspective. I get it. I think it's a lot of what she is saying that he is saying that this has been a. It sounds like a very sudden and abrupt and rapid change and that he has for a long time gotten used to, you know, your libido working in a certain way, perhaps your love language being a certain love language. And, yeah, I imagine that it is really challenging to, like, you know, on a dime, switch that up. Right.

And it sounds like a very intense change, too, like to say, I am constantly in need of kissing, hugging, touching and sex.

Yeah, it is kind of interesting hearing, you know, that's a. Yeah, you are. This person is writing in about. This is how they are describing it. And that already sounds like pretty intense. And so I think often we, you know, if we can pick up on, oh, something is, you know, maybe a little more extreme, we'll often downplay it a bit about ourselves. So, you know, I'm. I imagine from his perspective, it's. It is probably pretty intense, an intense Change. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that it's different. I think it's. I mean, this is a less extreme example, but, you know, it's like, if you've been together for a super long time, and then overnight, it's like, okay. One partner is like, okay, I'm going vegan. I'm completely changing everything that I'm eating, everything in the pantry, everything in the fridge. And the other partner, you'd be like, whoa, wait, how's that gonna work? I cook dinner all the time. And how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna do that? And it's like, nope, vegan. Now that is what it is. Like, get used to it. That's hard.

There is a piece here that concerns me a little bit because she's saying, I feel confident in myself sexually and as a woman, which is great.

Yeah, I picked up on this part.

She's also saying I'm seeking affirmation from him.

Yeah, I wonder what's up there.

I want to feel desired. I need him. Constantly need him to be kissing, hugging, touching, sex. There is a contradiction there because you're saying you feel confident, but yet that you're needing him to prove to you through this constant affection. And that feels a little bit too extreme to me. Of course we get validation from our partner. Like, of course we all want to feel wanted, but it feels like there's this intensity of the need there that I would encourage her to do more of that self exploration of, like, okay, yeah, I am going through this really sudden change. I am noticing different stuff coming up. For me, it's great that I'm feeling this foundation of confidence and security in myself. And, like, let me go even deeper into that and see, you know, how much more I can validate myself and feel good about who I am as a woman. But when we come at our partner with this, like, I need you to prove this to me with constant touching and kissing and sex and all the things like, that just feels too overwhelming to a partner. And I think, you know, he's saying, like, I feel pressured by this. So I think that's something to pay attention to. Like, it's great that he's not being judgmental about it at all, but he is saying, like, this feels like a lot of sudden pressure. So I think that that's something to explore with him to be able to talk about. Like, yeah, I am noticing all these changes in, you know, what my desires are and what my, you know, sex drive is. But I Don't want that to come off as pressure to you.

Like you said, this has kind of been a sudden, dramatic change, and I totally understand that, you know, that. What, what that must be like and how much you probably want to talk about it or, you know, kind of, you're still coming to terms with what this change means for you. And so it's. I think it's really important for you to find a way to be able to acknowledge your reality and share your reality without it coming across as pressure. If you guys can get to a point where you can separate the like, oh, here is what I'm feeling, here's what I'm wanting, but not all of those things have to be met by you. And I think that that can be a way for him to start to just come to terms with what this change as men. Because right now it probably just feels scary. It's like, oh, there's been this sudden change and now there's a shit ton of pressure. Like, I'm the only one that can solve this problem. And you know that's not what you want. So, yeah, hopefully you guys can get to a situation in the near future where, you know, you, the person writing in, like, you are able to express to him what is going on with you without it feeling like pressure, without him feeling like I have to fulfill every single one of these needs.

Before we go any further, we want to tell you a little bit more about our podcast sponsors, because we love them and we really appreciate that they allow us to bring pillow talks to you absolutely free of charge. So first up, we have Earth Breeze. So, as is the case with any of our podcast sponsors, when Earth Breeze reached out and asked to be a sponsor, we of course asked to try out the product first. So here's what Earth Breeze is. It looks like a dryer sheet, but it is an ultra concentrated laundry detergent. So you get this very tiny package in the mail. I remember when I got it, I opened it up and it does so many loads of laundry, and I didn't believe it. I was like, this is the tiniest package. How is it possible to do this many loads of laundry in this little thing? But it's these little sheets. You rip them up and you put them into your machine. I have to say, it's weirdly kind of fun to rip them up. I don't know, it made laundry feel a little bit more fun, but you just rip them up, put them right in there, and they do the job for you. So the cool thing about Earth Breeze is that they are really eliminating a lot of plastic. Xander and I are really big on trying to make eco friendly decisions wherever possible. And everybody knows those enormous laundry jugs. All the plastic goes straight into the landfill. But now you can get your clothes clean without having to create even more trash in the landfill. Earth Breeze is dermatologist tested, hypoallergenic, free of bleaches and dyes. And the most important thing is that it works. We wouldn't be hyping this up if it wasn't a good detergent. It works really well. But if you don't trust us, just give it a try yourself. If it doesn't work for you, if you are not absolutely thrilled with it, then just let them know. You don't even have to return it. You will get a full refund, no questions asked. Trust me, there is no reason not to switch. Right now. Our listeners can get started with earth breeze and save 40%. Go to earthbreeze.compillow that's earth breeze.compillow for 40% off your subscription.

All right, our next one is my husband wants me to ask him for help around the house, but I want him to just help. He says that it isn't that hard to ask. I say I shouldn't have to ask him to clean the house he lives in. We fight about this constantly.

Okay. I wanted to include this one because I knew we were going to go deep on some of the other questions. And this one is a much easier one for us to address. Your husband's perspective is one of somebody who is not aware of the concept of mental load. So mental load is the invisible labor that goes into running a household and family. So it's not just chores and tasks themselves, like the cleaning. It's also having to keep track of remembering, oh, we're out of paper towels. And we like this brand of paper towels the best. And there's a coupon that comes out on Tuesdays for it. It's all of this, this, you know, thinking and planning and anticipating and checking in on things. And so this is a classic argument that couples have where the default partner who's carrying the mental load, you know, wants their partner to be more involved. They might feel like you probably feel like you're drowning. There's so much work that you're doing. And the partner feels like, yeah, I'm happy to help. Just tell me what you want me to do to help. And what they don't realize is because on the surface that sounds like a nice thing, like I am offering to help.

Just.

Just tell me what you need. Like, that sounds like a kind thing to say, but what they don't recognize is that asking your partner to tell you how to help is just creating more mental load. So now what you are having to do is, okay, I've got to think of all the tasks that need to be done. I need to identify which are the best ones to give to my partner. I need to tell them how to do all of those things. I need to make sure that they actually follow through on doing them and doing them correctly and doing them on the timeline that they might need to be done at. So it's this enormous load that they're putting on your shoulders where you probably already have a ton of other load just to get a little bit of their help. And on top of that, like, the word choice of this here can be very challenging. Like, tell me what you want me to do to help. That implies it's your job. Cleaning the house, taking care of all this stuff is your job. And I just get to come in and help whenever I feel like it.

Out of the goodness of my heart.

When I want to get some brownie points, because I'm helping. So this is, again, like I was saying, like, a very classic argument that comes up in couples, and the reason that it comes up is because there's not an awareness of mental load. So the good news here is that we have a couple of podcast episodes to help you out. Just search for mental load and pillow talks wherever you listen to podcasts. And we even have a mental load workbook that we can link in the show notes for you that helps you come up with the specific plan for sharing the mental load in your relationship so you can stop having the same argument over and over and over again.

Yeah, I mean, this is a pretty understandable perspective for somebody to have who doesn't actually have any clearly assigned responsibilities. This person is just thinking, oh, yeah, no, the responsibility is my partner's, and I just want to help out. No, like. Like, the quick solution is that he also needs to have a number of responsibilities that are just his. They're not yours. They're just his. And then, yeah, you shouldn't be needing to ask him to help on those. They're his. He's got to do his stuff. You do your stuff. Boom. All right, our next One is. We're 32 with two kids, three and one. Some of my husband's friends are single and still living like they're 21. They will invite him out to the bars and when he goes, he stays out all night. If I don't pester him to come home, he's home by 3am at the earliest. I trust that he's not cheating. I just think it's irresponsible and not cool that I have to spend a weekend day or two because of hangovers, cleaning up and watching the kids while he's sleeping all day, hungover. He acts like I'm a bad wife for not wanting him to go out. Now, to be fair, he asks for this maybe a couple of times a year, but it's still a conflict every time.

Okay, this one was so interesting because she had me for 90% of this until she said he asked for this a couple times a year. To be fair, I was thinking when I was reading this that this was like a once a month, multiple times a month kind of thing. But we're talking a couple of times a year.

So.

Okay, let's get into what is the husband's perspective? His perspective. My guess is that. But I'm a dad. I'm a husband. Life is very busy, very full. I'm doing a lot of things, and I miss my friends.

I want to blow off some steam a couple of times a year, I.

Want to blow off some steam. I want to hang out with my friends. Okay. And I want to pause here for a second because, Zander, this is something that we have talked about, like, the ways that men get when they're hanging out with each other, and especially if it's, like, it's been a while. You know, I've been with the kids and with family and doing stuff, and now I just want to, like, be with my boys and blow off steam. Like, there's some toxic masculinity that can surface very easily and very quickly. So, like. Yeah, I just. I want you to speak for a second to, like, maybe ways that he might be getting kind of wrapped up and lost in the moment and.

Yeah.

Doing a little more partying than maybe he maybe even.

Or intended to earlier in the night. Yeah, I mean, this. This is a very real thing. This is something that I certainly have struggled with in the past. Yeah. I think that especially if, you know, you got a bunch of guy friends and you don't see each other that often, that time that you do get together can be really built up into, like, oh, my God, we gotta get everything out of this moment. And a lot of kind of immature behavior can surface, a lot of sort of pressuring behavior. And then where that toxic masculinity comes in is kind of like the, like, oh, like oh, you don't want to do this because like you gotta go home to the wife and kids. Like, oh, like be a man and like do your own thing. And I think that there can be, there can be a lot of pressure around that. What I found personally with that is that, is that we also have some personal responsibility in that pressure where. What I found is that it's like when I kind of like play into that and allow that to happen, it's so much easier for you to get caught up into it and also for your friends to be like, oh, well, like basically what he's saying is that like he's okay with me pressuring him to do this because he actually secretly really wants to and I'm just like helping my friend let loose a little. What I have found personally is that I'm just. If I'm just like no, like I'm going home at this time, like that that is what it is. Or like no, like I don't want to, to have 10 more drinks or like no, I don't like. And just kind of being really clear that like my friends don't like goad me about stuff. But I think that what happens with guys is that there's sort of this dynamic of like, okay, well if someone really wants me to stop, they're gonna say stop. If they're not doing that, they actually want it secretly and I'm just helping them make it happen.

Okay. So yeah, I mean I think his perspective is he wants to have some time to himself, to be with friends, to connect. He's probably getting a little swept up and like being in the moment kind of thing. But it doesn't sound like this is a really over the top or wild desire on his part. This is not an every weekend type of thing. I will say like we're kind of going a little bit into like helping you problem solve here. But I will say like I think it's important that you have some time to connect with your friends or do your own self care. I think sometimes when we have our partner is doing stuff for themselves and we're not doing anything for ourselves, it's very easy for resentment to build up.

Yeah.

And I also will say the hangover thing, like he's got to sack up and deal with it. Like you cannot have two days, two extra days of just being totally off to deal with your hangover. Like that's a little over the top.

Yeah. I mean what I was going to say is that I think that another thing I agree with everything you said about like his perspective. I think also his perspective is, is probably that he is struggling to be as honest with himself and with you as he needs to be about what it is that he is really asking for. I think he is thinking, oh, I'm just asking for a night out. It like barely even impacts anything anyway because you know, it's like, probably the kids are already in bed by that point. And then you know, I'll be back that night, it'll be late, but whatever. And you know, I, I will be there the next day. And he's not being very honest with himself about, okay, what is the actual impact on me of this? Like, okay, I am going to be out of commission the next day. So I imagine it would be a different ask, it would set a different expectation if he was like, hey, I want to take a day and a half to like be with my friends. And you know that half that, you know, whatever, like half of that time is me sleeping because I'm going to be hungover. I think there's some power in claiming it's, hey, this is what I want to do. It's going to impact me. I'm going to be hungover tomorrow. I'm not going to be able to do this. So instead of asking, instead of talking about, hey, is it cool if I go out with my friends? You got to just be, you got to ask for what the reality is. And the reality is I want to go out with my friends and I want to sleep in until noon the next day because I can't do shit and just be honest with about it. And I think that often we are not honest with ourselves about this. Cause we don't really want to accept that reality. That is the situation that I am in. I can't go out drinking all night like I was 21 and like bounce back at 8am the next morning. It just ain't happening.

Well, and then you might be able to find some sort of different compromise from there. Like if that's the ask, then you might say like, okay, then you need to take the kids to your parents so that I don't have to be wrangling them and trying to be quiet so you can sleep all on the same day or you know, okay, well if you want that, then I want to go on a girls weekend.

Yes.

You know, so it just becomes like a more with all the cards out on the table, you can make more of an arrangement from there.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, to me, this looks like if he's doing. Let's be generous. You said a couple times a year, like, you're doing this like four times a year.

And a couple is too.

Okay, a couple is too. You're doing this two to four times a year and it kind of knocks you out for. Let's say it knocks you out for like 24 hours. Like 24 hours. He is useless. He's either not in the house or he's hungover, sleeping, taking care of himself. We're talking about two to four full days. And like, you know, I think on a lot of people it's like, hey, I'm gonna go on a trip with the guys for the week. I'm gonna go on a golf trip. I'm gonna go on whatever trip with my friends once a year. And like, you're gonna go on a trip with your friends once a year. And that's like a thing that we can support each other. And it sounds like for him, unless he's also going on all kinds of trips with his friends and leaving you to deal with everything, it sounds like instead of going on a trip, he's just wanting to break this up in a different way. So I think that you got to think about what do you want to be able to do and not have any responsibilities.

All right, here's the next one. We were going out to dinner with family to celebrate my dad's birthday. We decided to go to a nicer restaurant. I was wearing a dress, tights and heels. My husband picked out a relaxed button up with a T shirt and jeans. I told him that the outfit he picked out was nice, but too casual for the restaurant we were going to. My husband has been to this restaurant before and knows it's a fancier place. My comment was immediately met with intense frustration. Over our years of being together, we've encountered situations like this more than a handful of times. I always try to take it from the perspective of, you picked a nice outfit, but it doesn't fit the vibe of the place we're going. But he still seems to get upset. He says it's because he wants a choice in what he's going to wear. But I truly can't understand why he gets as frustrated as he does.

Oh, this one is so good.

All right, what do you think? What's his perspective?

Here's what I think his perspective is. I think that probably that this has nothing to do with the actual clothes that he is wearing for the restaurant that you are trying to go to. I think that Likely he may be feeling like he doesn't get a choice in more than just what it is that he is going to wear on a given night. So I don't know what else is going on in your life, but I suspect that this feels like a small situation that kind of parallels something larger going on.

It is indicative of.

It is indicative of how he feels in your relationship. And he is using this as almost like a straw man to. He's sort of like waging a proxy battle or something. Like, you know, like, he is not happy about feeling like he doesn't have much of a choice in other elements of his life or in your relationship. And then he sees this happening, goes, oh, yeah, this one. Now I can do something here. I'm gonna. I'm gonna be different and wear some jeans today. And that's, like, how I'm gonna protest.

I agree with you. I think, though, even if we take this at face value and say it's just about the clothes, I think what he's just trying to say is, like, these are the clothes that I'm wearing on my body, and I want to be the one in charge of it. So I understand your perspective of, like, I'm trying to help him dress appropriately, but he knows what appropriate is, and he's choosing something different. And, like, that's fine. I don't think it really matters that much. Who cares if he's slightly more casual than everybody else? Or who cares if he's slightly more casual than everybody else? Like, that's fine. He's an adult. He gets to deal with whatever discomfort he feels like. Maybe it's actually something different where he dresses really casually, he goes to the restaurant, and he's like, oh, shit, everybody's super fancy. And I feel out of place. Well, you know what? Next time you guys go to a fancy place, he's probably going to change it up.

Yeah.

So I think this is a really good example of the kinds of arguments that we need to just let go of in relationships. Like, his outfits are causing so much tension between the two of you. It's clothing. Who cares? Like, just let him wear what he wants to wear.

Yeah. I think. I think if you truly feel like what he wears is going to reflect so poorly on you. To whom? I'm not sure. But that might be something for you to. To really consider. Like, how does that really impact you? And, you know, maybe this is a small area where you could just let him make a choice for himself and deal with the consequences.

If I was giving advice Directly to this person, I would say, like, just stop telling him about the clothes. Or you could even have a conversation with him where you say, like, hey, I'm here for fashion advice. If you ever need it, you can come to me and I will help you understand, you know, pick out an outfit or figure out what is the dressiness level of where we're going. But otherwise I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and let you pick your clothes because you're an adult. But I do think, like Xander said at the beginning, like, this is probably indicative of something bigger. When you find yourself in a relationship arguing about things that seem really dumb on the surface, it's usually a pretty good sign that there is something lurking deeper down below.

Oh yeah.

And this is just becoming the symbol of it. So my guess is exactly what Sanders is too, that he's feeling like he doesn't have control. He doesn't have, you know, say so over other things in his life too. So he's, it's coming out through the clothes. So I might use this as an opportunity to get curious and say like, hey, is there anything else that this is reminding you of? Or the feelings that are coming up? Do you feel them in other areas of your life or of our relationship too, but just let him wear the clothes. All right, and here's our last one for the day. I'm a stay at home mom. We have one 11 month old boy. My husband sells insurance and works a lot, five to six days a week, 10 to 15 hour work days. He's allowed to make his own schedule and often chooses to book appointments with clients rather than come home and hang out with me and our son. In the last three weeks, he's canceled two date nights, very last minute, that we had planned for for at least a week. I try to explain to him that when he chooses work over me, it really shows where his priorities are. And it makes me feel like he doesn't really care about me or spending time with me. And it makes me sad. I get that he has to work a lot to provide for us and I'm so grateful. However, when we have a date night planned and a babysitter scheduled to come over, and he calls me an hour before they'll be here saying that he can't make it, but hasn't made any actual effort to make it, that hurts. He says he needs to work hard now so that when we're older we can do whatever we want, whenever we want with no monetary restraint. I can see his side of Things, but also, what's the point in having a lot of money at the end if we're not happy as a couple along the way? He just wants to make and save as much money as possible and doesn't care who he blows off or disrespects to get it. Oh, and ends on a real zinger there.

Wowza.

Doesn't care. Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here, but I want to start with you, Xander, and with an exploration of men's relationships with money and being the provider.

Yeah, I mean, I think that said, being the provider really becomes a kind of extreme identity for a lot of men. It's the way that we see masculinity portrayed so often in the media is like, you know, especially in this stereotypical situation of, like, woman is stay at home, mom. Man is out there providing and making money, and it can feel really intense. I have to take care of my family. I have to set them up. That's. That's like, my one job. And then a lot of fear and anxiety can come up around that, especially because it can feel like a weird dynamic. Like, okay, I'm out here working and making all this money, and then I'm spending it on my kids, and my wife is spending the money, and I have to save for retirement and all these things. And I think that can just. It can turn into this identity, this extreme need to be like, okay, well, I just have to make the most that I can and work the most number of hours and feel very alone. Like, well, that's my job. My partner isn't working, so, like, I can't really talk to them about it. How are they gonna understand?

Yeah, And a lot of men tell us, like, I feel like I'm. You know, we talked earlier about mental load. A lot of men tell us, I feel like I'm carrying all the mental load around the finances in our relationship. Like, of course, it's different in every relationship, but we do hear very often men saying, like, my partner isn't aware of what we make. They aren't aware of where the money is. Like, what are investments. They aren't keeping track of a budget. They're, you know, sometimes I'm, like, concerned about the spending. So it's this. This hyper fixation on, like, my identity, my worth is being a provider. And also this fear and this feeling of aloneness. Like, I'm doing it on my own. Or maybe it even feels like my partner is actively taking away from my ability.

Yeah. Working at cross purposes.

Yeah, exactly. So I completely understand her perspective of, like, yeah, I want to be spending time with you. And the date night thing sounds very annoying that he, you know, did it so last minute. So to me, that sounds. That just feels like a sign of how intense the pressure is for him that he's canceling these things where it's like, you know, yeah, we had this plan for a week. There's a babysitter, there's all the arrangements made already. And also, like, his fixation on not on any sort of enjoyment of the current. It's like, all about setting us up for the future. That's really a big indicator that this is about anxiety for him and fear and anxiety. So I would want to try to get to understand his perspective better. I would ask him some questions about, like, how was money handled by your family when you were growing up? How did you see your parents talk to each other about money? Or how did they split up the money load between them? What kinds of lessons were taught to you, directly or indirectly about money? Like, my guess is that there's a pretty painful history for him here that is driving him to put so much energy, so much time into trying to stockpile this money for their future. And I think if you were to ask him those questions, that would help tap into a sense of empathy and deeper understanding of him.

I'm also curious if you guys have talked about what your money goals are together, your money perspectives are together as a couple, because it sounds like he very obviously has this perspective of, I want us to be able to retire and be set up and not have to worry about money. And that is a totally valid perspective. And then you writing in, have an extremely valid perspective too, which is, what is the point of having a lot of money if we're not actually happy when it comes time to spend it? So I wonder if you guys have really shared those perspectives with each other, because I think that's. I mean, that is a huge. That is a completely valid perspective. What's the point of being totally set up if we, like, hate each other by the end of it or if we're not even together? So I imagine you guys haven't talked about that very much because I think that that could be a real light bulb moment for him is like, hey, like, I'm not feeling very happy with the way this is going. Like, what's more important, this theoretical retirement where we hate each other and, you know, we're like, barely talking to each other or, like, the here and now and, like, but, like, what are Some ways that we can try to accomplish both of these things while still being happy in the moment.

And I will say, just as one last little piece here, like, it does feel like there's some judgment creeping on, creeping in on her part. Like she says, you know, when he chooses work over me, it really shows where his priorities are. And then, of course, that, like, zinger of a last line. Like, he doesn't care who he blows off or disrespects to get it. So my guess is that he's feeling judged for wanting to provide and set up and, you know, this secure future for the two of you. And when we feel judged, we often just dig in harder to our own perspective. It's not like he's like, oh, you think I'm an asshole about money? Okay, cool. Like, let me stop being this way. He's probably feeling like he has to dig in even more. So again, I think that's another reason to open up some more conversations here. I think you guys have barely scratched the surface of what your relationships are with money. And I think there's some really deep and powerful and important conversations for the two of you to have. All right, well, we are going to wrap it up here. We have a bunch of other scenarios that we did not even get around to because. Because we got so excited by these examples and really started digging into them. So let us know if you like this format. If you want us to do another episode of it, come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. And just give us a follow over there, too. We obviously do a lot of research for all of our Pillow Talks episodes over on Instagram, so having you there really helps us. We can get more stories, more poll results, all the fun sort of stuff. So come follow us, Vanessa and Zander. And we will also link to that mental load workbook that we mentioned. We'll put that in the show notes.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about how to be a supportive partner to someone with penis performance issues. Sam.