Episode 152: Breaking Down A Text Fight

That is so fucking sad because I can almost guarantee you in 99% of these situations, what's happening is the partner truly does love you. They truly do see you in a positive way, and they are trying to give you their love, and you are pushing it away so hard. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Green Chef, the number one meal kit for clean eating. For their support of Pillow talks, go to greenchef.com pillow50 and use code PILLOW50. That's 50 to get 50% off plus 20% off your next two months. We are back today with another breakdown of one of your fights with your partner.

Breakdown, breakdown.

What was your breakdown song? You did it last time.

I think I did. I. I had a flashback as you saying that line. I was like. I was like, oh, I think I'm supposed to be like, break down and. But I think that art, our editor, added some really amazing sound effects to it. I don't think I can really replicate it this time.

Well, we'll see what he can do with your audio this time around.

Yeah, we'll see. I'm. I've been. I've been. I've kind of had a cold is for the last two weeks. My. I feel like my vocal range is not where it usually is. Not saying. It's usually very good. It's usually quite awful. But if you can imagine, it's even worse right now. So I don't really have my full vocal faculties, so I'm not going to try that hard. But.

I think it was something like that. Okay, so we have done this one time before and you guys really enjoyed it. So we've been waiting for the perfect fight.

Oh, and we got it.

Yeah. We had somebody reach out to us and sent us all these screenshots of a fight that they'd gotten into with their partner over text message. And while we do not recommend fighting with your partner over text message because it's just. It's just too easy to misinterpret tone because there is no tone, you know, so you can read. You can read the same sentence, like, what's wrong? You can read that a million different ways with a million different emotional tones to it. So we don't recommend fighting over a text message. It's just too easy to misinterpret and then get into an even bigger fight.

It is, however, the best way for us to break down your fight because it's kind of the only way we're going to get one of your fights to break down. So here we are doing it.

Yeah. So what we're going to do is we're going to read through the text message. It's between a man and a woman. So we'll have Xander read the male parts, I'll read the female parts, and we'll stop at certain points within it to point out, like, hey, you could have phrased it this way, or he could have said it this way, or, oh, they're falling into this common trap. So I like doing these breakdowns because I always think it's interesting. Let's see what other couples are fighting about, like what issues come up in other relationships.

And.

And we also want to make this feel valuable to you as well, like that you can kind of learn some communication tips and strategies and things to avoid along the way while being entertained.

But first, we are going to give you our review of the week. Our favorite podcast. My husband and I have been together for 16 years and have two young children. Pillow Talks is a weekly conversation starter for us that always leads us to feeling more connected. It's been so great to open up the conversation around all things sex and relationships, and we are more connected and open with each other than we have ever been in our relationship. We owe it to Vanessa and Xander. The content they share on their podcast and their Instagram page is unmatched. We've also purchased several courses and have utilized their free guides. Thank you for all you do. And then all the good emojis. Thank you so much. That's such a nice. That's really just. You're doing all our stuff and loving it and that's really the most that we could ask for is all we really hope for. That's why we do what we do. We highly recommend you do what these people do because you'll be happy, you'll.

Like the way you look and highly recommend that you like this person leave a review because it really does help the podcast grow so much. These reviews are very important in helping the podcast get featured, helping people decide to listen to it, because let's be Honest. Like, when you're trying to find a new podcast, it can feel very overwhelming. There's so many out there. So when you see one that has good reviews, it's being featured and you're gonna be much more likely to listen to it. So we do a giveaway every week as our little way of saying thank you for taking the time to leave a review. So just head over to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see the review section. So just pop a little review in there and then you will be entered into the giveaway every single week automatically. Going forward, if you hear your review read in an episode, you can reach out to us@infoemtherapy.com and you will get to choose a prize. Okay, let's get into the episode. Okay. Now, before we get into this text fight, I just want to say it is very vulnerable to send a fight to us knowing that it is going to be broken down in an episode. I did ask this person's permission to use the argument and he was totally happy for us to do it. But I just want to acknowledge the vulnerability and the courage it takes. Like, I probably would not want to let other people see text message fights between the two of us. Like, we are not. Nobody's in their best form when you're having conflict with your partner. So yeah, it's very vulnerable to like, let other people see and hear this. And I also want to say, like, it is so much easier when you are an objective third party outsider being able to look at somebody's like, texts and say like, oh, I can't believe you said it that way. Or I can't believe she said that. But of course, when we are in the moment, like, we are so much more human. So although we are going to be like breaking this down and dissecting it, I just want to call out that we have the advantage of this is not our fight. We are calm. We are looking back at this.

Yeah, Hindsight.

Yeah. Well, it's not really hindsight for us since we weren't there in the moment, but like, yeah, I just, I really want to make it clear that, like, this is. We're not trying to imply that it's super easy to communicate really effectively. Like, we all have bad behavior when we're in conflict.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're going to be super honest about what our reactions are and what our thoughts are. That does not mean that we're saying you, you needed to do all these things because the reality is when we get in fights in any kind of conflict. We are very imperfect. We screw things up all the time. I mean, I think what half of conflict is, is like the repair part where you get to talk about, okay, yeah, you know what? I shouldn't have said it that way. That was that thing I said there. That thing that I implied, like, that wasn't cool. Upon reflection, I am not happy with the way that feels, and, you know, I'd like to apologize for that. So I know this isn't easy. I probably would have done a lot of similar things if I was in this situation as well. That doesn't mean that I still can't, like, objectively look at it and provide suggestions or thoughts or have reactions. So that's what we're doing. Let's get into the fight.

Let's get into the fight. So it starts off as so many fights and relationships do about something completely unrelated to the deeper issues that come up. So it starts off with them arguing about him shaving his beard. So I asked him for a little bit of the backstory after he sent all of this, and basically, he has a beard. She loves the beard. I relate to this very much.

Sounds like our situation.

And he was teasing her about shaving it off.

This happens sometimes in our household.

So it starts off as teasing and being playful, and then it starts to take a turn.

And honestly, as most fights do, I.

Relate to this because you've joked about shaving before too, and I'm like, no, please, please don't. I love your beard so much. Okay, so let's read.

All right, so they're talking about cutting the beard. So this. Maybe it starts a little abruptly, but this is what we got. Not quite that short. I was tempted. The dry air has really done a toll on it.

Oil her up.

Have been. Almost need to whack her down and focus on the new growth.

Whack even more.

Yeah, not going to right now, but might need to happen when it's warmer out.

Need chin warmer.

Exactly. Plus, what would be the fun of shaving it if you're not here to witness it?

Please don't.

I won't. But you know it grows back, right? Sure.

I just can't do clean shaven. Stubble is fine.

It would be clean for a day.

I'll come back around day four.

Lol. You do realize how that could sound? Mildly offensive, Shallow.

I'm teasing the next day.

Lol. Deal.

But across the board, I don't love a clean shaven face.

Honestly, the only reason I would Shave clean is if I were going to have something done to my face. I know bbs. We've talked about it before.

Well, don't make me feel shallow for having that preference.

Hmm.

Please don't do that. Your beard and my weight aren't the same.

Whoa. A turn.

A hard turn. Okay. So I had to ask him to clarify this, because I was like, whoa. How did we go from beard preferences to weight? And I guess weight has been a consistent issue in their relationship. He said that she grew up dancing. I think fitness was, like, a big part of her life. But when they met, she had just stopped exercising because of an injury. So she had gained some weight and was feeling uncomfortable in her own body. So I think that sensitivity that she has, it made it a quick place for her to go to. But I do think the original thing that they started talking about is interesting. Like, are you allowed to have a preference about your partner's facial hair? And, like, is it shallow to have preferences about your partner's physical appearance? What do you think, Bim? Is it shallow?

That's such a good question. Like, it's so tough because we ask each other for input about our bodies and our looks all the time. I think, like, whenever I go for a haircut or something, like, I'll ask Vanessa, like, oh, how do I look? Or, like, if you're gonna go in for a haircut, you're almost. You very often are asking, like, oh, what do you think if I cut this much off? If I cut that much off, what if I go way shorter this time? What do you think of if I, like, adjust the color like this or like that? So, like, you're asking me questions about your hair, about clothes, about, you know, whatever it is that you know is related to, like, you know, your sort of body or appearance all the time. So it's tricky because it's like, we both play into these dynamics a bit. And then I think sometimes it's like, as soon as we cross a line where the other person feels a little uncomfortable, all of a sudden, it can be a bit of a gotcha moment. Like, oh, no, that was too far. But in reality, it's like, most relationships already have built up this dynamic of, like, we're asking each other for advice or opinions or thoughts, but we don't have any clear guidelines on, like, okay, what is an acceptable level of involvement to have in your partner's looks? Or, like, what is an acceptable answer to the question of how short should I go with my haircut? Or do you, like, it this short or that short?

Well, I guess I'm thinking a little bit more about the, like, is it. Does it make you shallow? Aspect. And I think, like, in relationships, as long as we have this foundation of, hey, I'm with you and I love you and care about you for deeper reasons, I don't think it makes us shallow to be. To have, like, certain preferences about a partner's appearance. I think it crosses a line into shallow if that's the only thing you care about or the most important thing. And of course, like, physical stuff gets complicated because we've all gotten so much crappy socialization, especially us women, about what we're supposed to look like. So I do think, to me, facial hair doesn't really feel like a loaded topic in the same way weight was. So to me, somebody saying, oh, I have a preference about what your facial hair looks like, that doesn't feel shallow as long as that foundation, like I was saying, was there. Whereas it's much more complicated when someone says, I have a preference about what I want your weight to be.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's also shades of, like, how easy is it to impact the thing that we're talking about, facial hair? It's like, boom. You just pull out the clippers and, like, it's gone. Like, the facial hair is kind of. You know, it's almost a binary decision. Assuming that you are capable of growing facial hair, you can trim it off. You can decide to not trim so that it grows. There's not. It's not really tied up with all these other things, like, like, maybe weight and eating and food are like that. That is such a more complicated topic than something like your facial hair or even just your head hair, where it's like, okay, I cut it when I want to cut it. When I want it to grow, I don't cut it. So, yeah, and I think that that's also a really good point. You are so much more eloquent than I was in describing that. But I really liked what you were saying about, yeah, it's fine to have a preference. I would go even further and be like, yeah, where the line is, is if you're like, no, you can't do that because I won't be attracted to you anymore or I won't like it. I think when you go too hard into, like, it being more than a preference, like, a preference is one thing. Hey, I love you either way. I think you're beautiful either way. If I had to pick one, I like this one a little Better. But if you're like, no, I only like you with facial hair. Once you get rid of your facial hair, like, ew, grow, like, then it's like, then it's kind of almost like coercive and feels a little gross.

Okay, I'm going to force myself to move on because this text fight that we have is so long. But I feel like I could do a whole episode just about, like, physical preferences. So actually, let us know. Come over to Instagram at Vanessa and Xander. This is definitely a big enough topic to be an episode. So let us know if you're interested in. In that.

I do just want to jump in and add one thing. I think it's a little interesting how it seems like everything is all in good fun. He said, like, lol. Like, he's laughing out loud and then he kind of.

Thank you for translating the emoji.

Well, I don't know. It's like, it's weird to be like.

Oh, you know, he's laughing out loud.

He'S lulling, and then all of a sudden he just slips in like, oh, but by the way, do you realize how that could sound mildly offensive? And, like, obviously this is a loaded topic. Like, I think that what this is is, like, they're clearly. They clearly have been arguing in the past about this thing about, like, shallow comments or something around preferences that doesn't have to do with facial hair. Like, as we will find out later, there's some stuff coming up around weight. And it feels like maybe this is a bit of a tit for tat thing. Like, perhaps she's accused him of being shallow, and now he's like, oh, well, look, here's ways that you're doing it too. And I know, I know I identify this because I used to be really guilty of this, you know, like in our relationship in the past, you know, there were. Whenever I saw Vanessa every now and then doing something that I knew that I had gotten in trouble for in the past or that I had struggled with in the past, it was so tempting for me to really go in on that and be like, oh, oh, I see you doing that thing that I just got in trouble for last month. And I know how tempting that can feel is like, oh, look, like we both do it. Like, let me get back at you. But it just always makes things worse. It's like, all that means is that you haven't properly repaired, you know, the last fight. You haven't found a way to kind of, like, accept the situation and reconcile and move on. So to me, this is just an indicator that there are some deeper issues that have definitely not been resolved. So if you find yourself wanting to do that tit for tat thing, ask yourself, okay, do we maybe need to rewind things and figure out how to come to a better resolution of whatever's coming up?

Okay, so let's get back to it. She's. She goes into the. Your beard and my weight aren't the same. What I will say is, like, about that statement, of course, when we are having arguments with our partner, like, it's very easy for us to start to see patterns or something reminds us of something. But what I would have suggested she do here in this moment is to take ownership over the fact that it was triggering a memory of something different for her. So rather than doing this hard, right? Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, what are we talking about? Like, if she had just said, hey, this is feeling a little bit triggering for me and reminding me a bit about the conversations we've had about my weight. And I know that's been, like, a tricky issue for us, so I would rather not go there, or something like that. I think that would have been a lot more effective.

Okay, so then he jumps in. I've said it before. I'm less worried about your weight and more concerned about your relationship with your body.

Okay, So I want to give him some props here because we have done episodes about your partner's, like, relationship with their own body. The, like, oh, my partner's not taking care of themselves anymore. And we talked in that episode about how complex issues with weight are. And we gave examples of, like, using this phrasing instead that, like, it's about you and your relationship with your body. It's not about your weight. It's not about what you're eating or how much you're exercising. It's like, I love you, and I want to see you treating your body with the same love and respect that I know it deserves. So I think that him pointing out I could have tweaked it a little bit. It's. I'm less worried about your weight. It would have been better if he just said, I don't care about your weight. What I care about is how you're treating your body. Okay, then she goes into. Then what snarky comment were you going to make so that she's just baiting him right there. She's. She's being aggressive. She's poking the bear. She's. She's goading him into a fight. So don't say that she's.

Yeah, she's just upping the stakes. I wasn't. My first thought was, then why do you accuse me of preferring a fit body but realize that you aren't trying to make me feel shallow when you accuse me of it. You're probably looking for real assurance and I probably haven't been the best at articulating that reassurance. I struggle with where to land between I will love you no matter your weight and stop complaining and get your shit together. You don't really help me with letting me know the level of support or reassurance that you need. Oof.

Okay, so we're going to get more like later on into the fight. This theme will unveil itself a little bit more. But the issue of, like, how she wants him to show up in supporting her and her relationship with her body is obviously something that they have been fighting about for a long time. I do not love the way that he phrased this here, like, stop complaining and get your shit together is not a very kind thing to say to your partner who like, clearly is having some sort of struggles with her body and her self esteem and confidence and all of that kind of stuff. But I do understand the. What I think he's trying to say here, which he's not saying it gracefully or kindly at all. But I think what he's trying to say is I don't know how to support you. I love you, I care about you. I want to see you having a good relationship with your body and I'm not sure how to support you in that.

Yeah. Or even like, I hear you complaining a lot about this and I really want to be here for you and I'm not really sure what my role is or what you want me to do. And you know, and. And perhaps even like, I've reached a point where it is challenging to know what to do with all those complaints. I'm not sure I'm the best outlet for all of those complaints.

Yeah. Okay. So then she says, well, I don't know how you could be okay with it when I'm certainly not. I wouldn't say you've been supportive or reassuring much. I'm not totally sure what she means by this. I. I think she might be saying, like, I don't know how you could be okay with my body if I'm not okay with my body.

I'm pretty sure that's what she's saying. That's how I read it.

Which. Let's just go to that. You're wrong Sorry, you're just straight up wrong, lady. We are so hard on our bodies, and we are the hardest person on our bodies. I promise you, nobody else looks at your body nearly as critically as you look at your own body. And this is definitely a dynamic we've heard so many times from men in relationships with women. They're like, I love my partner's body. I think she's beautiful. I think she's sexy. I don't see any flaws in it. But the woman cannot accept that. And she almost, like, hounds him about it. Like, how could you not see my cellulite? How could you not think this extra, you know, flab I have around my belly is gross?

Yeah. And then. And then there's. And then you're super vigilant, trying to find anything your partner says to confirm this suspicion that. That you do, in fact, hate their body or whatever it is.

But I really want to speak to all the women out there and just reassure you. Your partner loves your body. They do not see the same things in your body that you see. They do not see those flaws. Like, they love you, they're attracted to you, they think you're sexy. They want to have sex with you. Like, they really and truly are not seeing your body in the same harsh way that you're seeing it. Okay, let's get back to it. She says it makes me feel insecure because I've been a lot smaller all throughout our relationship, and now I'm not. And I know the others that you have interacted with are all small. So in my mind, you are going to leave me for someone like that. I half feel that way even when I'm smaller, but even more so now. Like, why wouldn't you be one foot out the door? Okay, so first, to go back for some context, I asked him, I was like, who are the others? And I did not get a super clear answer. This is what he wrote back. There's a much longer answer to this, but basically includes other women at varying levels of relationship. Never while we've been together, though.

So just past partners, we're going to assume, but maybe there's more to the story. I don't know. So take that with a grain of salt.

I don't know. Other women at varying levels of relationship.

I think he's just trying to say people he's been in relationships with, perhaps, but also hookups.

I couldn't. I don't know. I couldn't quite tell what that meant. Okay, but let's get back to her response. This is classic Example of somebody who does not love themselves, projecting their own lack of self love out onto their partner and feeling like if I don't love myself, if I don't see myself in a positive way, there is no way that you could see me in a positive way. And, and what you are doing with this kind of language is creating that exact reality. And it's so fucking sad because I can almost guarantee you in 99% of these situations, what's happening is the partner truly does love you, they truly do see you in a positive way and they are trying to give you their love and you are pushing it away so hard. Like, not only are you not accepting it, but you are like actively pushing your partner into an oppositional role with you. Like, you're just pushing that love and care so far away.

Also, I can tell you if you are in a long term relationship, like if you've been together for a long time, especially like this person is not thinking about the others, the people they've been with in the past.

It's interesting that she got really defensive about feeling like he was calling her shallow, but when that's actually exactly what she's doing right here. Like, she is taking herself as this complex, layered, nuanced, complicated human being and she's boiling herself just down to her size. Like, she's making that the only thing that matters. Like, oh, you don't love me because I'm nice to you and I make you laugh and we both love cooking and all these shared experiences. Yeah. Like, it's just like, oh, you only love me because I'm tiny. That's like the one thing that you pick a partner based on. Tiny or not tiny. So anytime we're walking down the street and you see somebody who's smaller than me, you're gonna go after that person. And when you're with them, whenever you see someone who's smaller than them, you're gonna go after that person.

A race to the tiniest.

She's boiling herself down to literally this one aspect of her body, which is just. It's sad. It really makes me sad. I understand how we women get to this place because we've been fed all this crap about our weight, our ent. But please just know, you are so much more than the size of your body and your partner cares about you for so many more reasons than just the size of your body.

Like I said, I haven't been good about reassuring you and I have no idea the level of support you need. Even though I've explicitly asked Multiple times. I'm not one foot out the door. I'll never be one foot out the door over your weight. Fit is my preference, but comfort in your own skin is more important. What I cannot do is listen to you complain about your weight for the rest of our lives. I've been in that relationship, and it's fucking miserable. I can't help unless I'm told how. And right now, it's just constant stress and frustration.

Okay. He was really close to delivering a good message.

Yeah. He's clearly really frustrated, and that frustration is getting the better of how he's writing this out.

Okay. I appreciate that he said, I haven't been good about reassuring you. He's taking ownership here. He's recognizing his part of it. And he's also, like, really putting the onus on her and saying, like, I need you to tell me. I've asked you, and I haven't got an answer. Like, I want you to tell me how I can support you. That's a very reasonable request. I appreciate him, like, being firm about that and saying, like, you need to tell me an answer here. He's also giving her that reassurance, like, I'm not one foot out the door. Your weight is not the most important thing to me. I do wish. I'm nitpicking here, obviously. And of course, it's easier to, like, look at the exact words that are written in front of us here. But, like, I do wish he had not said, fit is my preference. I think this is a classic example of a guy thinking, like, I'm just being honest. And, like, honesty is what builds trust. But weight and fit, like, fit is really just code word for weight. And it's just such a loaded topic with us women that. And especially knowing that they've had a history with this, that it is an area of sensitivity, major sensitivity for her. I just would not say this anymore. I would keep reiterating your comfort in your own skin. It is what is most important to me.

Yeah. The only thing I can think of here is that obviously they've gotten into this fight or a similar one in the past where he has stated that or they've, you know, discussed it and kind of come to, okay, well, fit is my preference, but is not the most important thing. So this could also just be his way of kind of owning that. Like, you know, okay, I'm not gonna, like, pretend that I didn't say that in the past. I'm not going to pretend that that isn't the case. But I do I do think that even if you've talked about that in the past and it, you know, kind of was a fight and you've talked through it and whatnot, like, you don't need to keep referring back to it. And also like, your, your views and whatnot can change on that. Like, you can keep having this conversation and be like, all right, look, we don't need to focus on the fit part. Like, let's just focus on, like, health and happiness.

So one other piece of this is he's drawing a really clear boundary and he's saying, like, I'm not going to be in a relationship with somebody who is just complaining about their weight, like, for their, you know, all the time. I do think that's a reasonable boundary for somebody to draw. Like, it is very difficult when you love somebody to watch them just beat themselves up over and over and over again. So I understand his frustration and I understand him like saying, I can't, I can't do this for my, the rest of my life. I think I would have focused this even more on, like, her relationship with herself and said something like, I love you so much and it is so hard for me to watch you beat yourself up endlessly. Like, I can't. I love you too much to watch you do that. I think that would have been much more effective because the way that he typed it, it comes across more aggressive and more about him than her. Before we go any further, we want to tell you a little bit more about our podcast sponsors, because we love all of our sponsors and we really appreciate that they allow us to bring pillow talks to you absolutely free of charge. First up, let's tell you a little bit more about Green Chef. Green Chef is a meal delivery service that makes eating healthier so much easier. We have been trying Green Chef for a very long time and having such a great time, like cooking meals together, but in a way that's so much faster. It takes so much of the mental load out of deciding, like, what are we gonna have for dinner? Do we have all the ingredients that we need? What are we gonna do? How do we make it? We love a Green Chef for how much easier it makes the whole meal prep process. You can go to greenchef.com pillow50 and use code PILLOW50 to get 50% off plus 20% off your next two months. Green Chef supports every lifestyle. Every week you get to choose from over 80 flavor packed options and you can easily customize meals to suit your lifestyle with preferences like keto plant based Mediterranean. They Also make eating clean so much easier. They have limited processed ingredients, low added sugars and sodium. Smart options. They send organic fresh produce in every box along with responsibly sourced proteins, including 100% sustainably sourced seafood, 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken. And of course it is ultra convenient. You can make dinner in under 30 minutes, lunch in under 10. They deliver everything you need straight to your door. Pre measured ingredients. Some produce is pre chopped. Custom sauces that are pre made. It's just so freaking easy. If you want to try it out, go to greenchef.com pillow50 and use code PILLOW50 to get 50% off plus 20% off your next two months. Okay, so then she says, why does this sound like I'm responsible for the level of support you give me? I can't tell you what to do or how to do it. That's like the mental load stuff. You want me to tell you what to do or what to say? I'll never ask for reassurance. It's like asking for a compliment. It's not something I seek. Okay, so she's dead wrong here. This is a. This is a misunderstanding of the mental load. So we are each responsible for the level of support that we need from our partners. Like we are responsible for telling our partner, hey, this is what I need from you. This is how I want you to show up for me. This is what I like. And what I don't like that is just part of being an adult. It's not a mental load thing. It sounds like to me what she wants is her partner to read her mind, to automatically know what she wants and needs. And she thinks having to ask for it makes it less valuable or less real. We actually have a podcast episode called if I have to Ask for it, does it even Count? Which I would highly recommend that she listen to. But I would. Yeah, if I was working with her, I would say, no, this is. This is just straight wrong.

Yeah, I mean, I can understand where she's coming from a little bit. And like, obviously they've had these mental load conversations, and a big part of that conversation is that, yeah, it is not fair in a mental load situation for, you know, the lower mental load partner to be like, oh, just tell me what kind of help you need. Because the difference there is that when we're talking about chores around the house, those are not things that are in our heads. Those are very real things that are in front of us. We both see them with our eyes. We both live in the same House, we both have the same kids. We both know that they have the same activities, the same school schedule, right? Like, we're. We're all operating with the same amount of information, and it's just a matter of, okay, are we going to do the things that need to be done versus I have all this stuff up in my head, all these thoughts and feelings, and you have all those thoughts and feelings in your head. And we are not able to know what is going on in each other's heads. So when it comes to this emotional stuff, no, like, you can't just assume that your partner is gonna know exactly what to do when you want it, when you like what you want, when you want it, right? Like, no, like, you have to be able to say, hey, I need some. I'm feeling like I could use some reassurance right now. I'm feeling really insecure right now. I'm feeling like I just wanna vent right now. I would just love somebody to listen or I would love somebody to problem solve. I am really stuck, and I don't know what to do and I need some help. Like, those are all three very different things. And the only way that you would know what you need is if you are in your own head, right? And so you have to be able to communicate that. All right? So then he jumps in because you are.

And he's saying, like, you are responsible. She said, why does this sound like I'm responsible for the level of support you give me?

He's saying, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because you are. I can be a drill instructor and cook, only clean and track your macros, or I can just love you and let you decide what, how, when you want to do something about it or anything in between. I want to help, but not be offensive or a dick.

That's valid. Totally valid.

That's great. Like, that's really great that he's aware. There is a whole range of ways that he could support or not support, and he's trying to call that out. Then he continues, babes, every time you say something to the effect of, why are you with me? Or I think you're going to leave me for someone smaller, you're asking for reassurance.

That is also true.

That is very true. So he's calling that out. And how about some acknowledgement that I definitely don't have one foot out the door, and I'm trying to help you feel better about yourself so you can be more comfortable and confident in both your body and our relationship. I'm talking to you about it instead of letting it become an issue or a resentment.

Okay, I'm on board. I'm on board with this. And I appreciate asking for acknowledgement. Like, he's saying, yeah, I want to be acknowledged that, like, I am in this with you. I'm not, like, wishy washy like, you're saying, I am. So she comes back with, okay, hold on. You want acknowledgment for not leaving me? For not having one foot out the door? Like, thanks for still being with me. I thought you were going to leave me even two sizes ago. So I think she is really misinterpreting. They're really missing each other here. She's. My take on this is that she's really misinterpreting what he's saying. He's trying to say, like, I would love to be exactly like. She basically accused him earlier of, you're one foot in, one foot out. And he's saying, I want to be acknowledged. And, like, I want you to see me that I am fully in this with you. He's telling her, I'm fully in this with you, and I want you to see that. And I think what she's. She's misinterpreting it as him wanting to be congratulated for being with her because it's so hard, because she's so big. She's putting a really negative spin on it.

No, I want acknowledgment that I'm willing to talk to you about these things where most men would not or would be a dick about it and tell you to lose weight. You're not helping your cause, buddy. Why? Why do you need to say that? Why? Why do you need to say that? That doesn't. That doesn't help your cause. All it does is hurt your cause. And it's not key to your argument at all.

Yeah, he's trying to say, I am not that. But all that she's going to do is read into, like, oh, well, that's really how you feel.

Well, yeah, because.

But you just don't want to be seen as a dick.

I don't actually even care if you lose weight. What I care more about is your happiness.

Okay, I'm going to stop here and just nitpick this sentence. I don't actually even care if you lose weight. I think she's going to interpret that as, yeah, you do. You secretly do. So I would just make it more straightforward and say, I don't care if you lose weight. Just take out the. Actually even, like, just make it super clear given that he knows what a trigger this topic is for her.

Also the line he is at right before or like most guys would be a dick about it. Because what she's probably going to hear is, well, I should be a dick about this, but I'm not going to because I'm so. Because I'm so nice and you should give me extra credit for being extra nice because I'm not doing the thing that you really deserve. Like that's what she's going to hear because she thinks, oh, well, I, you know, I deserve, I deserve to be left because I'm gaining weight or whatever it is. What I care more about is your happiness and because your relationship with your body has changed, you're less happy. I'm trying to be a supportive partner.

Thank you. No sarcasm. I appreciate that she did that there. This is a perfect example of tone. You don't get any tone in text message. So that could have been a very sarcastic thank you. But she's making it clear. Yeah, thanks buddy. She's making it clear. No sarcasm. Good job for her there. She says, I am self conscious about my weight. I will figure it out. Ideally I just feel loved and supported regardless. I don't know how that looks or what those specifics are at the time. It's also harder to do from afar. This is a long distance couple, by the way. Honestly, I just am always waiting for you to leave me. That's the larger issue. Okay. I love this look. She's softened. You can like feel. I know I just talked about how you can't tell tone in text messages, but I feel like you can feel the softness that has crept in. Like she was getting really like ramped up before, but now she's like bringing it back and she's being really vulnerable here, which I think we'll see what he responds. But usually in arguments when we're really vulnerable and we share with our partner what's actually going on with us, that is the key to just softening up that tension and starting to be a team again. She's just taking ownership of this. I am self conscious and I also really appreciate that she's just saying, I don't know what I need right now. That's okay. Sometimes we hear the question what do you want? And we feel like the answer should be so obvious, but it's a really difficult question. A lot of times we don't know what we want and even if we like want to know what we want and want to be a good communicator and want to set our partner up for success and want to be clear about our needs and all the things, like, sometimes we just don't know. And that's okay. That's part of being human. But if we can share that with our partner, like, yeah, I don't know what I need at this point in time, and that's really hard for me. Like. Like, that's great. That's totally wonderful. And she's. She's also. We're finally naming, like, what is actually the issue here. She's just afraid of him leaving her.

And I'll give her props, too, for the way she worded it. I know this is going to be. This is a hard thing to hear, is being on the receiving end of it, but the way that she says it, honestly, I am just always waiting for you to leave me. She could have said, honestly, like, you've been about to leave me for the last. Last six months or year or whatever it is. She could have, like, accused him of that, which would have just. That would have just driven the wedge further. Because then he, you know, then it's turning into a logistical argument where he's like, no, like, I'm. I'm not always about to leave. Like, what makes you think that? Blah, blah. But she's going, I have been waiting for you to leave me. Not putting any blame on him for that, of course. That's a hard thing to hear still. And I'm sure that, you know, if I heard you say that to me, I would feel really sad and maybe a bit hopeless because I'd be like, oh, my God. I don't know how to make you think otherwise, given that. I feel like I've been doing everything in my power to show you how much I love you and care about you, but I appreciate that she worded it that way.

Yeah.

Okay. So then he says, I'm a pretty good person and partner. I know I put you through the ringer in 2023, but I want you to know that I'm here for you now, no matter what. Sexiness is an attitude, not a size or number on a scale. You've lost that part of your sparkle. I'm wanting to help you get it back while being respectful.

Okay. See, we did get some softness from him, too. Like, he's. He's being vulnerable. He's taking ownership of some stuff. I did ask him because I was very curious about, like, what happened in 2023, and he said that she was, like, so much emotional support for him during a really difficult, like custody battle with an ex, a lot of other issues. He went into a mild depression and she was just like a total rock star for him during that time.

Oh, that's great.

So, yeah, she was a really, really good partner to him. He also totally used one of our lines. Sexiness is an attitude, not a size or a number on the scale. Which I appreciate we are here. Like, we try to give you guys content specific phrases to share with your partner. Like, we want to help you come up with the words. So good usage of that. And I think, yeah, just him saying like, I want to help you, I want to help you get it back. Just one tiny nitpick is he keeps mentioning the being respectful thing. And I do think that it might make it easy for her to read into. Like, you do want me to be thin, but you're just trying to be respectful, not being one of those dicks. So I might just like take that out. But that's a tiny little nitpick thing. So let's see what she says next. She says, listen, I'm a middle aged perimenopausal woman. It's not super sexy. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to be around. I question if sexiness is even possible as I get older. We gotta stop here, girl. Yes, it is. Do not talk about yourself this way. Sexiness is possible at any age. Okay. She says, or honestly, I don't really much care if I'm sexy or not. It's never really been a goal for me. So this is. Yeah, it's like I wanna, I wanna give this woman a hug. I wanna give her a pep talk. I want her to know, like, you already are sexy and beautiful and wonderful. I don't even need to know what this woman looks like to say that. And I, yeah, I wish that I want her to get to a place where she can see that.

Yeah. And I mean, also, it's just tough the, like, she's saying it's not sexy. And I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to be around. That's just going back to that really kind of self deprecating, that self deprecating thing that he's saying. Hey, this is really hard for me to hear and I don't know how to support you in this because it's not. You're telling me like, oh, I don't want to be around and I do want to be around. So it's just kind of. That, that's just a challenging thing. You know, she's kind of Softened. But then she's going back into that, that self deprecating place, which I worry might start to turn things back. Back the wrong way. So then he says, replace the word sexy with happy. Then also, that's a fairly bleak outlook. Oh, this here. This is exactly what I'm saying. Also, that's a fairly bleak outlook. There's acceptance of who you are and then there's using circumstances as an excuse. The first results in happy. Oh, yeah. All right, let me, let me mansplain this to you. The first results in happiness. The second is what I'm hearing from you.

So I, I think what's going on here is just his confusion about, like, you know, he did say before, I don't know how to show up for you. I don't know how to support you. So this sounds, this sounds like you know him. Like, wait, do you want me to show up as the, like, boot camp, you know, instructor, Instructor, Instructor, instructor. The boot camp instructor to like, hey, don't use your circumstances as an excuse. So I think he's like a little bit all over the place. She just says, I'm not going to fight my age or where I am in life. So she didn't, she didn't take the bait. It's not turning into a fight on her end. She seems like a little bit sad and resigned right now.

I think it's less fighting against and more of lessening impact. Like, if you truly are Perry, not that you've taken a test or consulted a doctor.

Buddy, stop.

Then there's a lot of different things you can do to make the impact less from food, exercise, supplements, and even prescription medicine and hormone treatments. You just don't have to sit by while your hormones are all over the place. Your periods are irregular and your weight is fluctuating just because you're 44. Why would you just shrug and say, oh, well, especially when those things are affecting you negatively, both physically and mentally. All right, this is. This is tough. I can see both sides of this. He's really. He's kind of. Well, I don't know. I don't.

Do we disagree here?

Well, I mean, what I. It sounds like what his experience is is that she is saying, hey, I am. Whatever. I'm having these symptoms. I must be. I must be experiencing this specific medical condition because of my age. I don't know for sure. I'm not like. But like, but just like, oh, this is just what happens at this age. Rather than looking into, like, oh, are there any things that I can do?

Oh, Boy, am I working such a man right now. I feel like this is just such a stereotypical male response. You both. Both you, Xander, and the guy here are going into problem solving mode. And she's not asking for that. Like, she. The way that I read this, she's just feeling really sad. She's finally gotten to that vulnerable center within herself, and she's just like, I feel. I feel sad. I don't know what to do. I don't feel like myself. And he's leaping into problem solving. So much detail. Food, exercise, hormone test, prescription medication, hormone. Like, she's not asking for any of that. And so I think him just going into that level of, like, she's just gonna shut down completely or it's gonna turn into a bigger fight. Like, she doesn't need that right now. At the very least, I think he could have said. What would have really saved him right here is if he said, hey, what do you need right now? Do you just want to vent or do you want me to give advice? Or he could even have said, like, I've got a real good pep talk just in the back of my head for you. Can I give it to you right now? But she doesn't need this. Yeah, we don't need the problem solving.

Oh, yeah, those are. That's all totally valid. I was. What? I. I was reading this as. This is something, this talk of. Oh, it's just my age. It's just menopause. I was. I. What I was reading into this was that this has been an ongoing theme for them over the last, like, six months or something. And he's just, like. He's saying, like. Like, it's. It's frustrating. You've been complaining a lot recently, and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I. What I was reading in here is that he's saying, I've been hearing this from you a lot. I've been hearing you talk, oh, it must be menopause. It must be my age for a long time. And it's just starting to sound like. Like an excuse to. To not take care of yourself, to not care, to not look into solutions. I wasn't reading this like, oh, you just said you might be menopausal. Ah, I happen to know all kinds of stuff about that. Let me tell you all the solutions. So she doesn't actually engage. In fact, she doesn't respond. And then it looks like the next day he writes back, did you have a good snoozle?

She says, I guess.

And he Sends the hmm emoji.

And so, okay, so I don't think I'm wallowing. And what pain. I think maybe some of the message might have gotten cut off here, because I'm not. I'm not sure where the wallowing and the pain came in from, but we're just gonna continue.

You are wallowing by not doing anything about things that are making you feel bad about yourself. The pain. He puts that in parentheses.

Yeah, See, it's just like, again, we're going into the pro. Like, he's going into that drill sergeant mode, boot camp, instructor mode. And, like, she hasn't said that that's what she wants or needs. So to me, this just feels like he's just picking at it. Like we're picking at the scab instead of moving on.

Yeah.

She says, okay, so this is all stuff that makes me feel worse about myself. I'm really not interested in taking those shots. None of this makes me feel better or supported. Just shit on.

So I should just keep my mouth shut and let you hopefully figure it out on your own, even though it affects me deeply and our relationship.

Yeah, it's like, I get that. Like, he obviously wants to continue the conversation and come to some sort of resolution or plan, which is valid, and they should. Like, they just left the conversation the day before, which a lot of couples are guilty of. We've done it ourselves, too. You just kind of work yourselves into a corner and you're like, oh, fuck it. Let's just stop here. But you have to loop back around to things and, like, create some sort of resolution or some sort of, you know, plan for going forward. So I understand that he wants to address it, but she clearly is not in the place to address it yet. So he could have said something more like, hey, I'd really love for us to finish this conversation. Like, is now a good time? Or should we come back to it a different time? But, like, I want to make sure that we address this. But the way that he said it is pretty aggressive. She responds, no one else is going to figure it out for me. I always figure it out on my own. I'm saying, I've had enough shit for today, thanks. So she's drawn a boundary and saying, I'm done.

And then he says, but you don't have to. That's the advantage of having a partner. I'll drop it, though. Just know that your unhappiness doesn't just affect you.

It's a mixed bag here. It's like, yeah, he's trying to say, like, I'm, you know, I want to be here for you. I want to be your teammate. I want to support you. I just need to know how. And of course, like, his. The way that he's communicated has made it really clear that, like, he doesn't know how to support her, and he really would benefit from having some more feedback from her.

Yeah. I mean, I think what may be going on here is that he doesn't respond in the most skillful way right here. But I think that what is happening, like, if I were in his shoes, I would be feeling. I would be feeling a conflict between. She's just said, yeah, you know, I'm gonna have to figure it out on my own. That's what I always do. And that's a perfectly valid thing. If that's what you want to do. Hey, this is my problem. I want to figure it out on my own. That's on the one hand. Then. On the other hand is his experience over the last however many months it's been of her complaining about a lot of this stuff, like, you know, oh, I'm feeling really bad about myself. All these things are happening. I don't like it. Blah, blah, whatever it is that she's been saying where it's like, well, that doesn't really feel like I'm figuring it out on my own if it's like a big part of what they talk about all the time. And so I think that he's feeling some conflict between those two experiences of what she's saying there, and then the reality of what's been happening where it's like she's complaining about it. And maybe I kind of want you to help me or talk to me or, I don't know. You know, I don't know what it is that she wants, but this isn't the behavior of someone who is just figuring it out on their own.

Yes.

And so I think that there's a way that he could have said that of. I'm feeling confused hearing, you know, hearing you say that. I get that you're saying that you want to figure it out on your own. And my experience over the last however many months has, you know, has not been that. It's been that I've been pulled into this a lot, and I don't know what my role is, and it's hard for me to reconcile those two things.

Yeah. So let me go clean up this last sentence he wrote. Just know that your unhappiness doesn't just affect you. I do think there's a positive intention behind that statement. But it would have been much more effective if he said, I want you to know that I care about your happiness and it's hard for me to see you being unhappy. But what it sounds like, just know that your unhappiness doesn't just affect you. What it sounds like is he's just complaining for himself. Like, ugh, I'm impacted by your unhappy happiness.

Yeah, it sounds almost like a bit of a yeah. Oh, if you're unhappy, then that makes me unhappy and we can't have that.

She says, yeah, there's not really anything that you can do. You don't have to stay with me if you're not happy because of me. Leave.

Oh my God, she needs to stop saying this.

She. Yeah, so she's taking it like, she's taking that as a selfish statement that he's just complaining about himself. But then she goes to a very extreme place of, well, fine, then leave me.

It's either like she's ratcheted it up 10 notches or she's doing the like extreme self deprecating thing, like, oh, well, you've just been about to leave me anyways, it's finally time that you did it. And neither of those feel very good. And so he goes just like that. Wow.

What? Just like that. If you're unhappy with me, you don't have to be.

You care about me so little, you're fine with just breaking up?

I'm just tired and want to go home. I don't want to fight or argue or any of it.

Are you not home?

Yes. It's just how I feel when I don't like where I am. I just want to go home to where it's safe and everything is okay. And your parents will take care of you when you're tired of being where you are.

Oh, home, home. Well, I'm done for the night. The petty, competitive voice in my head is telling me to call your bluff and I don't want to. So go have fun with Erica. I'm going to go check out the curling national championship. If you want to chat later, let me know.

You know, I do appreciate, like, he's being honest and saying, like, yeah, I've got this petty, competitive side of me that wants to keep this going. But you know what? I'm not going to. I think it is powerful when we name parts of ourselves like that and we make a conscious decision not to go in that direction. So I, you know, it's a little de escalation here. She says, have fun on your date.

You know, it's not a date. Stop it.

And that is the end of the conversation. We leave you in a real cliffhanger there. That's like a whole new fight that's just about to start off.

I know. It feels like a whole. A whole repeat. You could go right back to the beginning.

I know. I want. I really want to know the story of, like, what is. Why is she calling it a date? What's going on here? Were these the other women that we were talking about earlier? But alas, we get left on a cliffhanger. All right, well, that is the end of our text fight. We hope this has been interesting for you, getting to, like, get this sneak peek at a real fight between a real couple. And we hope you've picked up lots of great communication tips along the way. We'd love to know if you like this format, so please come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. We also have a ton of content there that is super valuable. Like, we'd love to have you join our community over there if you're not already a part of it. But let us know if you like this format, and the next time you have a text fight, please send it over to us because it's so fun for us to get to dissect it and share it with everybody.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about non sexual foreplay.