Episode 167: Should We Open Our Relationship?

Expect that you are going to develop feelings for other people. Is that something that you're willing to handle? Is that something that you're willing to talk about, to maybe get therapy about? To know that your own feelings are going to, you know, in response to your partner developing feelings are going to come up? It's like a, it's a price of admission kind of. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Should we open up our relationship? That is the question.

That is the question I was not expecting you to ask me live on a podcast.

No, that is the question that you, the listener, are asking to us, the podcast hosts. Meta. So we put up a question box on Instagram and we said, are you considering opening up your relationship so that.

You can be with us?

No, that is not an option. Now, we wanted to do an advice style episode about open relationships. We've previously done an episode about like, general guidelines and tips for open relationships. It's one of the earliest, like, episodes we ever did. Episode 31, if you want to scroll all the way back. But we wanted to cover the topic again because open relationships are something that are getting talked about more and more frequently these days. Like more and more people are trying them out, more and more people are speaking openly about being in them. So we wanted to talk about them again. And we thought it'd be really interesting to ask what situations you're in. So we asked, like, tell us if you're considering opening your relationship in any way. Whether that's like considering playing around on the side all the way up to having a full blown relationship with other people where emotions are involved. It's not just sex.

AKA polyamory.

Yes. So we said, tell us what your situation is. Why are you considering an open relationship? What are you considering? What questions or concerns do you have? And we thought it would be really interesting to talk about open relationships in this context of an advice episode. It's always fun to hear what's going on in other people's relationships.

Oh yeah, we love it. That's why we do this.

Yeah. So we get a little voyeuristic look at what's going on in other relationships.

A little zing.

A little zing. And it gives us the opportunity to share some of our thoughts, advice, hot takes about open relationships.

Before we get into any of that, though, I do have to give. I guess I feel like I've been giving caveats every single episode about. About my voice and my pronunciation. I'm actually wearing my Invisalign aligners today during this episode because I've been having a little bit of trouble with my aligners and my teeth. My expansion going a little faster than it should, and the Invisalign isn't able to keep up, and so I need to.

You got too open. Your teeth got too open.

They did my. I opened my teeth, and really, I opened things up too fast. It's 100% on me. There were two instructions given to me on how much and how to, like, crank this device to open things up, and I only followed one of those, and that was the less precise one. And, yeah, so basically, I realized I've been cranking my device open about 50%, probably, like 25 to 50% too much every single day. So compounded over, like, two and a half weeks of cranking, that's, like, a fair bit more width that I have opened my mouth up than the orthodontist was expecting and therefore created these aligners to. To hold my teeth in place. And so they stopped fitting yesterday, which was a bit of a scary moment. So I actually was advised by my orthodontist to actually crank my thing backwards.

He's closing it back down.

Lows my mouth down because I got overzealous, so I didn't have to crank it back too far. Just three cranks. This is so much detail. Yeah. You know, I'm in bed with Vanessa. We're here right now, and I feel like you're here with us, not in bed. Then. That's kind of weird.

Just telling us that. Real weird.

Anyway, Anyway, yeah, I am trying to just keep these aligners in as long as humanly possible to get my. To get my teeth kind of back together where they should be as quick as possible so that I can restart the process of the expansion.

All right, now that you have more info than you ever cared to know about Xander's mouth.

Yeah, that's not true, though. The number of, like, DMS and questions we get about what I'm doing, though, like, people want to know all about it. They do.

So before we get into the scenarios, I Just want to make our perspective on open relationships 100% clear.

Great idea.

So we are big fans of every couple deciding for themselves what kind of relationship model works for them.

And really what we think is every couple should opt into whatever relationship structure they want, you know, early in the relationship. Kind of like, you know, we have this idea that like, early in a relationship, you know, you should have like the dtr, Right. Like defining, you know, okay, are we in a serious relationship? I think societally we default to like, okay, we're making a monogamous commitment to each other being in a relationship. But really, I think instead of that, really we should be like, defining what type of relationship do we want to be in, if we want to be in one at all. And that's where the conversation about these different types of structures really starts. Rather than the default assumption that any serious relationship is monogamous.

Yeah. So we believe that any form of non monogamy is like a perfectly valid relationship structure. We want people to, like, choose what feels right for them to explore, to get curious about it, and not just default to monogamy. Because we were raised in a society where monogamy is what the vast majority of couples do. So we don't think there's one right way to do relationships. We want people to consider all the options. And as a sex therapist, I also want to support people in whatever relationship model they choose and having the healthiest and best possible relationship they can have. And as open relationships have gotten more popular and more people are trying them, I have seen a lot of challenging dynamics come up around them. Just in the same way that there are a million challenging dynamics that come up around monogamous relationships. But we've just been like talking about those openly for longer since that is seen as the default. So that's the perspective we're going to be taking on these scenarios. Like zero judgment around opening up the relationship. Like, again, we see this as a totally valid and really healthy relationship relationship model for a lot of people. And we're going to be pointing out like some of the potential pitfalls, potential not so great reasons for doing this and going about like, okay, if we are going to do this, what's the healthiest way to set it up?

Yeah. I think the reality of the society that we live in where monogamy, monogamous relationships are the default societally, the reality is we have been thinking about monogamy and dealing with all the dynamics that monogamy brings up. Really, like from the moment we start even considering being in a relationship. Like, I feel like, you know, from early teenage years you start confronting sort of like feelings of jealousy as they relate to like monogamous stuff, thinking about these ideas of like marriage and commitment and what that looks like in a monogamous structure. So I think if you do end up going into monogamy, like most people have a pretty well defined idea of what monogamy is and what the kind of general bounds of that are, because we've been talking about that from the very beginning. Whereas with a lot of these other relationship structures as a society, since they aren't as normal, we aren't always on the same page about what it all means. And so if we jump into one of them without really even ourselves knowing entirely what does this mean, what kinds of considerations are there, what kinds of dynamics can come up, then we can really be doing ourselves and our partner a serious disservice and making a lot of mistakes because we just aren't prepared for certain things. We don't know what types of things to define and what rules to have, et cetera. This podcast is brought to you by our friends at Pretty Boy Men's Skincare. Fellas, if you are anything like me, taking care of your skin was probably an afterthought for most of your life. Then one day you notice some wrinkles creeping up around your eyes. A shave before a date goes wrong and turns your face into a battlefield of razor bur. Or the embarrassment from oily skin that looks like a pizza box just becomes too much. Or maybe if you're like me, you get a girlfriend who turns into a wife who has a great skincare routine and you feel a little left out in the cold. That's where PrettyBoy's six in one Revival moisturizer and two in one Fresh Start face Cleanser come in offering a game changing upgrade to your skincare routine. They listened to what guys wanted and crafted these products specifically for men. They Blending top science with ultimate simplicity. Chosen as GQ's number one moisturizer for a good reason, Pretty Boy is all about results without the fuss. Targeting the top concerns Guys face with some of the most well researched and well respected ingredients in skincare. Their products perform where others fall short. If you want to do something simple and effective, you need to check Pretty Boy out. Go to yoprittyboy.com and use pillows at checkout for 15% off. That's Y-O-P-R-E-T-T-Y-B-O-Y.com and use code pillows at checkout for 15% OFF.

All right, so let's get into our first scenario.

I know I'm going to thank Vanessa in advance because I was going to read all the questions, but I'm actually. Vanessa is going to do a lot more reading.

I'm going to carry this entire episode on my back.

I'm going to jump in with some real zingers, though, so don't worry. I'll be ready to go. When I talk, it's gonna be fire.

Wow.

It's a real promise.

Yeah. I'm speaking it into existence.

Okay. I just got off the phone with my husband, and the topic of conversation was opening our marriage. We're male and female, 30 years old, been together for 11 years, married for five. We're thinking about opening our relationship because we want to relieve some pressure and satisfy a kink. I, the female, have a much higher sex drive than he does. He feels pressured when I ask for sex because he doesn't want to constantly tell me no. Although it's perfectly okay for him to tell me no, and I respect his no. I do find the constant rejection frustrating and deflating. He also has a kink for the forbidden, and we would both like to spice things up. Now, here's where I'm like, I needed more detail.

Yeah. What is the forbidden? You know, what.

What is the kink?

Well, I mean, my. Can I make a guess?

Okay.

I mean, my very first guess, given the way that this has been set up, I haven't read ahead yet. My very first guess is, like, cuckold. That fits. You know, it fits in with this, where it's like, he doesn't, like, constantly saying no, and he also has a kink that seems like a good fit so far. I'm like, cool, this is sounding good to me.

I mean, she said we would both like to spice things up. So, like, is she not into the kink? Not willing to participate in any sort of way? I don't really know.

Yeah, unclear. And yes, what the forbidden kink is. And forbidden is in quotes, by the way. What that is is pretty essential for us to properly diagnose this, but let's continue.

Yeah, we're just going to have to skip over that. She says we've discussed both swinging. So if anybody hasn't heard the term swinging, that's more of a casual. Like, you're just having sex with other.

People, no strings attached.

Yeah. Sometimes it's done as, like, a swap. Like, two couples get together and, like, swap partners.

Yeah, I think that's Fairly often.

Okay. So they've discussed both swinging and an open relationship. Our concerns are the following. One, will there be jealousy on either end? How will we handle it? Obvious concerns of that impacting our relationship.

At first, I was thinking, well, I'm glad that they're asking this. Then. Then I thought about it some more, and I was like, the wording of this worries me a little. Will there be jealousy? Like, asking us? Like, I, Vanessa, and I could never tell you, oh, yeah, you. You'll feel jealous, but you. The other person, won't feel jealous. Like, this is more of a question back to you, the person asking it. It's like, you got to think through this for yourself. How, you know, what is my history with jealousy? What do I think it will be like if I just imagine you having sex with someone else? Like, what does that bring up for me? Do I feel, like, repulsed, or do I feel excited? Like, I think that this is something that you really have to start gauging for yourself.

I think it's safe to say there is gonna be jealousy probably on both of your ends. And I say that because monogamy is the default relationship model. So, you know, these people have not had the experience of seeing their partner with another person. I think because monogamy kind of encourages jealousy. It's this, like, possessive, like, you're mine. Nobody else gets to have you. Nobody else gets to be with you. So I think it's very reasonable and practical to assume that there is going to be jealousy.

Yeah. At the very least, monogamy gives us an excuse almost to. To avoid jealousy. One of the features of monogamy, so to speak, is the avoidance of jealousy. If you are in a successful monogamous relationship, kind of playing by the typical monogamous rules. One of the pros is that jealousy should not come up that often because.

Ooh, I totally disagree.

Maybe not, but I guess, like, for most people, it's like, well, I want to be in a monogamous relationship because I don't want to be constantly confronting jealousy.

But still, like, there's. I mean, this is the other thing. There's a lot of jealousy in monogamous relationships. Like, we hear from this all the time. Like, my partner check somebody out, or my partner made a comment that my friend is really cute. Like, people get very upset about, like, the smallest little things. So I. Again, that's another reason why I think it's practical and smart to assume you are probably both going to be jealous. So then the question becomes, like, are you capable of handling that jealousy. So people who choose to be in non monogamous relationships, yes, there are some magical unicorns out there who don't really get jealous. But I think the majority of people would say, like, yes, I get jealous, feelings come up, I get triggered, and I make a conscious decision to navigate and manage those feelings because this relationship model feels like the right model for me. So it's not a. It's not that jealousy never comes up or like, you know, you have to be some magical non jealous person to consider a non monogamous relationship. But it's like, I'm making a choice that I'm willing to deal with this, with this jealousy. So the other questions here are like, how will we handle it? And you'll have to handle it by doing a lot of processing of that emotion, just like you might need to process other emotions that come up. So there's gonna be a lot of conversations, maybe there's gonna be therapy, maybe there's gonna be, like, negotiating and renegotiating boundaries. But I think one of the main points that I wanna make about open relationships is they take a lot of work, and so do monogamous relationships. This is just a different kind of work. But in open relationships, there definitely is much more communication, which is a good thing and a hard thing. The people that I know that have successfully done open relationships are elite communicators, like, next level. And it's obviously a skill that benefits, like, so many other areas of your life. And it can also be really freaking draining sometimes. Like, there's so many feelings to process and other people's feelings and combinations of people's feelings. So it is a lot of work in a different sort of way than people who are used to being in monogamous relationships are used to working on their relationship. So we've been in a really busy season of life lately, and I have to admit, we have been relying on delivery and takeout far more often than I'd like.

Yeah, embarrassing.

And so that's why we were super excited when Marley Spoon approached us to be a Pillow Talks podcast sponsor for us, like, eating healthy and nutritious food is really important, but let's be real. Like, sometimes it just feels really overwhelming. Or if you go to the other end, like, sometimes you try to cook healthy food, but it just winds up tasting really boring and bland. So Marley Spoon wants to eliminate all of these issues. They created the best tasting meal kit money can buy, and you can use our code pillow to get up to 25 free meals. So the really cool Thing about Marley Spoon is it's highly customizable. So first of all, you can get to choose from over a hundred delicious recipes every week. We are gluten free, so we put on the little gluten free sort and still I was like scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and couldn't believe how many recipes, recipes we had to choose from. We got. A recent meal was Tuscan sheet pan chicken, which was absolutely delicious. And so like I was saying, they're very customizable, so you get to pick the meal, but then you also can like make little adjustments to it. Like we had a different meal where we got to pick. Did we want broccoli, green beans or zucchini in it? I've never seen that before. And that was super cool.

Oh, yeah. And also like picking the protein, like, did we want Tuscan sheet pan chicken or did we actually want pork chops?

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All right, so I think that this question actually I would say is a bit of a yellow flag in that I don't think you have. Just by the wording of this question, I can tell that you have probably not done enough research on open relationship configurations and rules and boundaries as you should in order to get to the point where you could reasonably say, yes, we want to try this because one of the key parts of an open relationship are. What type of open relationship is it? What are the boundaries? What are the rules? And a lot of rules you tend to be around how we handle feelings. What level of other relationships are we allowed to get into? So, you know, it could be, all right, are we allowed to. Okay, you're allowed to, like, talk to someone and have sex with them, and it's like, it's just sex. Or like, okay, like, we're allowed to, like, get up to, you know, we can have, like, you know, feelings of liking someone but not love. And like, oh, all the way up to, like, yeah, like, we can be in multiple relationships where we are having feelings of love. And that's not to say that, like, you can somehow magically cut off, like, a feeling that you can stop yourself from. Oh, I'm not allowed to feel love. But basically what it is is acknowledging, hey, if you decide we don't want to be in a relationship where one of us is starting to have loving feelings for someone else, then what it is is having the wherewithal to be like, okay, I've reached the point where I can't take this other relationship any further, or I may need to break this other relationship off if I can't bring things back out of respect for my partner, for my primary partner, out of respect for the rules that we have set up. So, yeah, it's like, if the question is, oh, well, what do we do if we develop feelings? Like, what that tells me is that you haven't done enough digging yet on, like, what kind of feelings are you guys okay with each other feeling? And therefore, what are the rules or the boundaries of this openness going to be?

I don't know. I think I have a slightly different take on this question. Like, I think that we can make all the boundaries and rules and guidelines that we want, but at the end of the day, we don't have any control over our feelings.

Yeah.

So we can say, like, you know, we don't want to develop feelings for another person. You could say that until you're blue in the face. But then once you start actually being intimate with somebody, like, you can't help it, you very well may develop feelings. So I would treat this one the same as the jealousy question. Like, I would say, expect that you are going to develop feelings for other people. Is that something that you're willing to handle? Is that something that you're willing to talk about, to maybe get therapy about, to know that your own feelings are going to, you know, in response to your partner developing Feelings are going to come up. It's like a, it's a price of admission kind of thing for me. Are you willing to navigate that? And I would say, like, if the thought of your partner developing feelings for another person just makes you absolutely want to vomit, then probably opening up the relationship is not the right thing for you.

How about definitely not opening up the relationship? I mean, if, if that's what comes up.

Okay. And then their third question is, is the communication in our relationships strong enough to handle this? So for me, you mentioned like the idea of a yellow flag earlier. For me, this question is a yellow flag. If you're wondering, is our communication strong enough to handle it? I think that means no, it's not strong enough to handle it.

Yeah. Or yeah, perhaps not yet. I will say, I mean, like, I'm impressed the way that they wrote at the beginning of just sort of the dynamic of like, there was a lot of just seeming acknowledgment and acceptance of like, you know, the situation that they are in. Like, I like the way that she and I assume he acknowledges, like, you know, this is the dynamic in our relationship. Like, I find myself saying no a lot more than I would like to. I don't like the way that feels. You don't like the way that that feels, you know, like that. It doesn't sound like this is a contentious thing. Like, this was described in a pretty like non emotionally charged way, which leads me to believe that it's not. This isn't like a. This isn't like a super tricky dynamic in their relationship. That it's not like causing constant frustration or resentment. It's more of like they're at acceptance of, like, this is where we are at with this and we're. Let's think about, let's think about ways that we can address this rather than it being like one, one of us has a problem and the other one needs to fix it.

Well, I guess I'll loop back, you know, to the overarching question here is should we open up our relationship in this scenario? My advice would be no for some of the reasons that we've gotten into in like answering their follow up questions. But also, and I'm gonna really just like spoil my whole perspective on open relationships right on this very first question here.

Great. You're gonna blow your load.

I'm gonna blow my load. My perspective is that people should try open relationships if they philosophically have this belief that monogamy does not feel like the right thing for them. If it's this idea of, like, I want to love multiple people. I want to be intimate with multiple people. Like, I have the room in my heart. I have the capacity for this. Like, this is what feels right and.

Natural to me and something that feels exciting.

Yes. Versus opening up a relationship to try to solve a problem in the current relationship.

Yeah.

I have seen a lot of couples attempt to solve their relationship problems by opening things up, and I have never seen it successfully work out in this way. So, you know, one of their very central issues that they're having here is, like, she has the higher sex drive, he has a lower one. By the way, we do have a podcast episode about this. I think it's called When She Wants It More. Such a common dynamic. But I think the issue is they need to spend a little bit more time figuring out how to navigate their natural differences in libido. So listen to that episode. We give a ton of tips. We also, you know, she mentions, like, the whole. There's a lot of dynamics that are coming up for them around the initiation of sex and being turned down for sex. We will link our course the Art of Initiation in the show notes for you because this is such an important skill that every couple needs to have, like learning how to initiate sex successfully and learning how to turn down sex skillfully and receive a turn down skillfully. So I think there's still work for this couple to do here. And no shame, like, this is something most couples don't know how to do this correctly. That's why we made the course in the first place. So I think there's some work to do there in figuring out how to, like, fine tune that and feel better about how this functions in their relationship and then come back to the question of, like, okay, well, now that our relationship is feeling smoother, we understand how to navigate our natural, normal differences. Like, are we excited about the idea of exploring an open relationship? We have a special treat for you today. We're joined by our friend Liz Moody, host of the Liz Moody Podcast. Liz is a longtime journalist who shares real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up and every part of your life. If you missed the beginning of this series, we had tip number one last week. And today we are back with tip number two. So, Liz, take it away.

Thank you, Vanessa. Okay, tip two is a little bit controversial. People either are like, yes, this was so intuitive, or I cannot believe this is true. And this is to put your phone completely away during conversation. This is based on research into what's called the face down. Phone theory. One study found that if tech is on the table at all, even face down, people will be less engaged, they'll be more distracted in conversation, and they will report less enjoyment after a conversation. And then another study found that the smartphone on the table at all, again, even face down, is going to impair our cognitive capability and functioning during the conversation. Even if people feel like they are giving their full attention to the conversation.

Oof, that is scary. And I can totally relate. I know what that feels like. The phone. I always put my phone face down because it's sort of like my signal. Like to you, Vanessa, that I'm really trying to concentrate. But you look at the phone some, you're like, ooh, I want to turn that thing over. I want to see what's on there.

You just feel it. Like you feel the presence of the phone there. You want to check it. Just like it vibrates. I mean, even when it's not actually vibrating.

That's because we disagree on how to do our do not disturb settings. My phone does not vibrate.

I think a really important part about this tip is you really want to put it out of sight. Out of sight is out of mind. The second that that phone is within your sight range, it's going to be detracting from our relationships. And our relationships are why we are having these conversations. They're the thing that study after study has shown makes us the happiest in our lives. And that phone drawing our focus is taking away from our ability to connect to the thing that matters.

This is a really important one in romantic relationships because we hear from our community all the time how frustrated and annoyed people get about their partner's phone usage. So something really simple like this, I think can make such a huge impact.

And we have a number of episodes that help people reclaim their focus and to put those phones away and actually break free from that really strong addiction that phones have on us. Phones are designed to be wildly addictive. They're modeled after slot machines. And so we have a ton of science on various episodes of the podcast that will help people break free from that addiction and reclaim their time, reclaim their focus, and reclaim their relationships. But this specific tip is from one of my all time favorite episodes. It's called these microhabits will make you happier, healthier and wealthier. And it's jam packed with little tiny tweaks that you can use to see big results in your life.

We will make sure to drop the link to that episode in our show notes and make sure to come back Next week to hear Liz's next episode tip. Okay, let's move on to the next one. I just recently brought up the topic of an open relationship with my husband, and he is not here for it. I am desperately reeling from infertility trauma after over a year of trying to conceive, only to find ourselves grieving multiple miscarriages, then follow that up with multiple failed rounds of infertility treatment. Fortunately, we've finally conceived our miraculous miracle baby. But now, on top of this experience, I'm managing a full time job, a toddler, and I've thrown up every single day for the past 20 weeks and counting. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. This sounds awful. My husband, though amazing in every single way, really misses our relationship and being intimate. He hasn't asked or suggested anything and is fully committed to leaving the ball in my court as we rebuild. But I can see him struggling. Unfortunately, everything about an intimate relationship makes me want to gag and the guilt has begun to consume me. I suggested that we open our relationship temporarily so that he can have the aspects of a relationship that he is missing and so that I don't have to bear the burden of feeling responsible. Am I totally insane? I don't think so, but he disagrees. Xander, what is your just absolute snap judgment? Yes or no. Should this couple open their relationship?

No. Hard no.

I agree.

Hard no. Well, because you want to open your relationship for him and he doesn't want to. Like, that's. That's all the answer. Like, that's the answer right there. I get that you think that you're doing him a solid, but you are trying to suggest something to relieve your own guilt rather than actually examining and working through your own guilt, which honestly may be keeping you in these guilty feelings longer than you need to be. Like, I think there is a path to examining what is coming up for you and both of you probably in couples therapy, where you could probably get through a lot of these feelings that are probably honestly keeping you in these feelings far longer than you need to be. And yeah, I think you're suggesting a band aid when there is actually a full on, like, healing that can be had from this situation via therapy and talking and communication.

Yeah. So you're totally right that the like for him aspect of it is a big red flag. Also for me, the temporary part of. Of it, like, yeah, opening your relationship is not a temporary band aid that you pop onto the relationship. Like it's a philosophical change way of life. You know, so just thinking of it as this, like, Temporary fix isn't the thing. And also, when you look at it in that way, like the way that this person is describing it, they're describing sex as being this purely physical act.

Like, oh, he just needs to go get it somewhere else.

You're talking about it like, yeah, like hunger. Like, oh, my husband's hungry and I can't cook, so I'm gonna hire a chef. I'm gonna hire a chef. Exactly. But it's not.

But only temporarily.

Sex is not just sex. It's not just a physical act. I promise you that. Your husband, like, if he just went out and had sex with somebody else, that would not solve anything for him.

He'd feel worse. I think he would feel worse.

He's wanting to feel connected to you, emotionally intimate with you. Like the two of you have been through. I totally wanna validate that and, like, send so much sympathy and compassion. Like, of course you're not feeling open to sex. Of course it feels like it makes you wanna gag right now. Like, you have gone through so much and so has your husband.

Yeah. You've gone through this together. And I imagine he's feeling locked out. Yeah, locked out of what's going on. And he's like, hey, I just went through hell with my wife and I. And I wanna, like, I wanna be able to be there with her.

Yes, exactly. And I think that this, I would far as to say, like, he's trying to love you and you're not allowing him to love you. Like, he's saying. He's not suggesting anything. He's saying, you're insane for wanting to open up the relationship. He is saying, I am fully committed to you just having the ball in your court. I will be here. I will be patient. Of course he's struggling. Like, he loves you, he wants to be intimate with you, but the fact that he's struggling does not take away from this beautiful gift that he's trying to give you. Like, he is telling you, I'm in this with you. I am your teammate. I am your partner. Yes, this is hard. Yes, we are struggling, but we are going to get through this together and.

Probably, I mean, go even further. I'm not trying to pile on, but I think it's just important to be able to acknowledge and recognize this stuff. Probably you suggesting the open relationship to him probably makes him feel really dismissed, un understood and just really not valued. Because he's like, I'm doing you the biggest solid I can. I'm all in. I am double down on you in this relationship. Like, I'm doing this for us, and I feel, like, completely unvalidated and unrecognized.

Okay, so we are in total agreement on this one. Don't open up your relationship. Be teammates in this. Yes, you've gone through something really traumatic, really challenging, but you have a partner. You have a real partner, the kind of partner that so many people are desperate to have. You have a real partner by your side, wanting to get through this together. Like, the two of you get through it together. And it's okay if it takes some time. It's okay if you need to go to therapy, Find some sex therapy. Do one of our guides or courses. Like, just be in this together. All right, here's our next scenario. We are new to this conversation, so we haven't decided anything just yet. Just exploring the idea of it. But we've been married for eight years. We got married when I was 18 years old, so I've never been with anyone else. He's never been with anyone else. We are very happily married. We have a solid sex life. It's fantastic. However, we have been a little curious about what it's like to have sex with anyone else. Not have an emotional, intimate relationship with someone. Just sexual. Maybe partner swap. We don't know. It's not exactly something we can go about talking to people about or searching for it.

Okay, interesting.

What's your gut take here?

Yeah, so at first I thought that they were just saying they wanted to do it because they didn't have any experience. And I don't know if that on its own is the greatest, but the fact that they're like, hey, we love our sex life. It's great. We're both feeling curious about what it's like to have sex with someone else. Like, they're clear about what it is they're looking for. Like, not an emotional, intimate relationship. Like, just sex. And if they're both, like, excited about that idea. Yeah, there's absolutely some options. Like, some kind of, like, swinging some kind of, like, no strings, you know, like, hookups only or something like that. Seems like it could absolutely work. We don't have any details about, like. Like, how do they feel about the idea of jealousy or whatever. But, I mean, God, I would. I would almost encourage them like, this. A baby step in just examining this and thinking about what this could be like. It's almost like, go to, like, a sex club or something like that. Not to have sex with somebody else, but just, like, to kind of, like, dip your toes in the water of, like, Seeing other people have sex with each other or like, you have sex, like, in a. In a place, like, where other people can see you or something of just like, is this something? Yeah. Would we want to, like, have, you know, a threesome or group sex? Or will we just want to swap? It seems like you're open to a number of ideas, so there's a lot of ways that you could dip your toes into this to even drill down on what it is that you want without kind of, like, crossing any lines yet.

Yeah, I feel the same way. Like, I. It feels like they have a really solid foundation. They are on the same page about it just wanting to be a purely sexual thing. So I would give them my green light to continue doing some research. They said, we're very new to this conversation, so it's time for you to do some research. Figure out different options and possibilities. Talk about what different scenarios would feel like for you. Listen to that older episode that we mentioned that goes through more of the logistics of getting this set up properly. But I would say keep exploring. Keep exploring, you two, and report back. Okay, here's the next one. My husband's fantasy is to watch me have sex with another man. He thinks it would be really hot. And while it's fun to fantasize about, my husband actually wants this to happen. We have had many very open discussions about it. I'm not completely opposed to it. However, I feel that it would change our marriage in one way or another. I don't feel like it can ever be a fun thing that happens here and there. I think that even if we were both 100% okay with it beforehand, it's likely that one of us would feel bad about it afterwards. For example, I might feel eternally guilty about it while he loves it. Or I might love it and he might become extremely jealous. Or I might feel uncomfortable with it. But now that my husband has experienced it, he might want me to keep doing it or not be satisfied if I didn't continue doing it. It sounds very fun and sexy, hypothetically. But even if there is the tiniest chance that it might harm our marriage, and I'm not willing to take that chance. Xander, what is your gut reaction here?

I'm going to say no, they should not do this based on what she wrote in.

Okay.

However, I almost want to, like, encourage her to change some perspectives, to perhaps be more open. Like, I want to actually convince her of a couple things, like, to maybe push her away from the no direction in a weird sort of way.

Okay.

So I Think that if she is, if she is worried that every, like, about every little thing that could possibly go wrong, if that. You know, I think we're all wired in different ways. Some of us are like, you know what? Like, I'd rather deal with consequences once they happen. Some people are like, I can see that there's a hundred possible consequences. I want to weigh every single one of these before I decide to do something. If you know about yourself that, like, you are kind of a. You like to brainstorm worst case scenarios and worry about those, I would say this is probably not for you because you are 100% right. Any one of these things that you listed here, they could happen. But they, but then again, they could happen. They could not happen. Like, any of these things that you listed, these are all things that could happen for almost anything that you guys do in life. This is like a wacky example, but, like, you could go out to a brand new restaurant and like, one of you could get literally obsessed with that restaurant and be like, I can't eat any other food. I can only eat this food. Like, that sounds wacky, but, like, the reality is anything you could go do a new hobby and one of you gets like so into it, that's like all you ever want to do. You know, it's kind of like. And this is an extreme example again, most of us accept the fact that airplanes are really safe and that we fly on airplanes to travel. But the reality is, like, any flight that you get on, it could crash. There could be a horrible outcome. But we just sort of accept that, yeah, a lot of things that we do, getting in the car, getting on the bus, whatever bad things can happen, but we live with the fact that they can happen. We decide to defer thinking about those things until it actually happens. And I think with all this, like, yeah, all of these things could happen, but like, there are ways to deal with all of those things in the moment as they happen, rather than being like, oh, my God, like, this could happen, therefore, I can never even consider it.

Yeah, I mean, I think I totally agree with you on that. And like, that even if there's the tiniest chance it might harm our marriage, like, anything, there's the tiniest chance that literally anything can harm your marriage.

Get in an argument tonight that blows your relationship up about something completely unrelated to this, like, that's just the reality of life.

Or you could even say the exact opposite. Like, there's the tiniest chance that not following through on this fantasy could harm your relationship. Like, everything has a tiny chance of harming your relationship. So I, like, I do think it's good to think through all the scenarios. That's definitely one of the tips that I give to couples considering opening the relationship. But I think you're right that, like, the way that I read what is written here, it does feel like there's a lot of underlying anxiety that, you know, it's just like, that's these scenarios, these possibilities, like, that just is a part of life. I think as it stands now, this person's not ready to follow through with something like that. But I think you're right, Xander, that, like, there's some reexamining of the perspective before, like, really and truly making a decision here.

Yeah.

Okay. Our next situation is from a woman married to a man. My husband and I recently got married, and I couldn't be happier with my choice.

Great.

Such a funny way to like, my.

Choice, my choice, my husband, my choice.

It sounds like you, like, went to a store and, like, picked a husband off the shelves and, like, can't be happier with my choice. The other three that I left on the shelf were not nearly as good. Okay, okay.

We don't know the context. It's possible that that's what happened here.

Like, how would you feel if I said that, like, Xander just couldn't be happier with my choice? Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

But it's like, I'm glad you chose me.

It strikes me as such a funny way of describing your partner. Okay, we're continuing. However, as we were figuring out what we wanted our relationship to look like and discuss what we found hot, I got to come back to the idea of being attracted to women. I've since accepted that this is a part of my sexuality. And now we always talk about which girls we find attractive in movies and TV shows we watch. I've never had an actual romantic or sexual experience with a woman, and the idea of it sounds interesting, but I also worry about the potential of this decision to impact our marriage. He's more than fine with me exploring, even said he might want to join. And while that part sounds really exciting, I'm worried about the instability of three person arrangements. My husband and I have amazing communication. We're at a really good place in our relationship. But still, I'm afraid to do anything that might jeopardize. As you said in your episode on threesomes, introducing any third person to a relationship is a risk. And this relationship is so precious to me that I don't want anything to Hurt it very similar to our last question. On one hand, I think it would be exciting to experiment. On the other hand, I'd be okay if I never got to do it. So it's really difficult to make that call because I'm around 50. 50 on the whole thing. Xander, what do you think?

I mean, I guess what I'm missing in here is how does she really feel about missing the possibility of missing out on having any sexual experiences with women? I guess I don't have a good read on how important is this really to her. It's kind of couched constantly and, oh, well, I'm so happy in this relationship. And, like, you know. Well, you know, I've kind of like. She does say she accepted this as part of my sexuality. That's kind of interesting phrase. Actually. I accepted that that's part of my sexuality is sort of like, oh, okay, I guess this is my sexuality. But what I haven't heard is, have you accepted that you're fine with never pursuing this? I'm not sure.

I feel really torn on this one. And it is a really interesting one because this is such a common scenario that someone's in what seems to be a heterosexual relationship, but they are actually interested in other gender, too. And it can be this difficult sense of identity erasure. You know, like, you feel like, well, everybody just assumes that I'm straight. And also, there's this whole dynamic of, you know, this is a part of my sexuality, but I never had a chance to experiment with it. And at the same time, it's like, I think we have to be careful with sexuality about. Like, obviously we use the word experiment a lot, but, like, this is not just like, your sexuality is so central to who you are. It's not like, oh, I'm just gonna experiment with getting Rocky road ice cream instead of cookies and cream tonight. Like, it's not a, like, just casual little experiment. And I think I see this a lot in. In situations where the woman is interested in other genders, where she's. There's a way that, like, especially women on women, it feels less intimidating to men. Like, I think most men would be like, oh, yeah, it sounds so hot if she were to hook up with another woman. And it's like, okay. But, like, I mean, yes, it is.

The way many men think about it. You know, throwing myself in here, including myself. Yes.

But I think a lot of men think of it as, like, oh, well, it's just like another chick that's just hot versus, like, ooh, her fucking another dude. Ooh, that sounds scary. And I'd get jealous. But it's like, well, she's bisexual. Like, I. There. She's equally, you know, she's attracted to women. It's not just a. Like, oh, I'm just doing it for fun.

Yeah, but she doesn't have a dick. She doesn't have this dick.

Oh, God. So I don't know. But yeah, I can't get a real. It's like, I want her to be able to experiment and explore part of her sexuality, but I also don't want her to treat experimenting with her sexuality as this, like, casual. Like, oh, yeah, I'll just hook up with a girl. Like, it actually could be in a way even more painful. Like, maybe you do have some experiences with a woman and you think, like.

Like, oh, I really missed out on this.

I missed out on this. Or I'm developing feelings for this person. I want to explore what it's like to have an emotional relationship with a woman, not just a physical relationship. So I feel like she's got some soul searching to do to figure out, like, there are two. Two ways that this can go. One is that she says, okay, you know, I am bisexual. I do wish that I realized this about myself earlier. I do wish I had some time to experience. Explore that. There is a grief in realizing that I'm not going to get that opportunity, and I accept that grief and I'm just, you know, that's okay. Versus a man. I'm realizing that I'm bisexual. This feels like a really central part of my identity. I can't imagine living my life never having explored or experimented with this part of my identity. Like, I need to do this. Like, I think it. It's one of those two paths that she's got to go down, and she needs to take a little bit more time to figure out which of those feels closer to her experience.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

I feel like this could be a podcast episode in and of itself. So I. If you're interested in us talking about being bisexual or just not hetero in a hetero facing relationship, let us know if you want us to do an episode on this because there's. There's so much more to unpack. But we've got, like, one more scenario.

To get through the not hetero episode.

Not not heter. But everybody thinks I'm hetero. All right, here's our last scenario. My husband and I are considering some form of non monogamy, but I don't know exactly what that looks like or what would be appropriate boundaries? What's worth it as far as risk and reward goes for changing the dynamics in such a strong way? Our relationship history is that we've been married for nine years together for around 13 years. We both come from strict religious backgrounds. For me, a lot of purity culture upbringing. I never got to explore my sexuality growing up and was told marriage was the only way. So I've only ever been with my husband. He had lots of opportunities to explore. And being a man, his purity culture upbringing was of course not as intense and did not affect his sexuality in the same way it affected mine. He so generously offered a few years ago for me to have the option to explore. However, after a lot of thought, I realized I can't get back what I lost the opportunity to explore when I was younger. That I could open the relationship, have new experiences with other people, but I would still have to grieve the missed opportunity for a healthy view on sex and sexuality that I didn't get in my early 20s. So I decided against it. And yeah, this is like some of what I was speaking to a bit earlier too. Like, there is just a grief involved and I love that this person is pointing that out and just saying, like, yeah, I'm never gonna be able to get back what I was lost. So rather than trying to chase after something, let me just like honor, acknowledge.

And grieve that, yeah, I think that this is an extremely mature way of this person has really thought this through. That it's like that, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's very generous of your partner to offer that. But, yeah, I think a lot of people would be like, oh, okay, great, I'm gonna take that, I'm gonna do a bunch of things and then I'm gonna realize that didn't actually solve the problem. It didn't make it go. Like, all the stuff that happened to me growing up in purity culture, all that trauma, didn't make that go away. Didn't make go away. That's a separate issue. And yeah, and like, the exploration being younger, like, yeah, you can't ever get that back. You can't go back in time and do that. You can explore now for different reasons, but you can't go back and explore for exploration's sake when you're young.

However, recently I realized that I'm bisexual. Very similar question to the last one. And this has led us back to the discussion of opening up the relationship. I feel a much stronger want, need to explore my sexuality with a woman than I did when he previously offered. I love him so much and enjoy our sex life. But it has been riddled with problems, mostly due to my purity, culture, trauma, abuse. I've put in so much effort to heal. And he's been really supportive along the way. I feel almost like I'm owed this opportunity. Not from him, but from the way that sex was taught. That fucked me up. Clearly. I know that's not the reality. Won't fix the past. So I'm trying to be realistic with what do to. To expect with opening the relationship. However, I'm not comfortable with him exploring, even though I know that's super hypocritical. He's okay with that for the time being, but clearly that could change. This one takes a real turn for me.

Curveball at the end.

Yep.

I was about to be like, okay, I think that you may be ready to really start considering this. I mean, I'm not gonna say you can't consider this because of that thing at the. It's so tricky because the, the weird thing is that it seems the way that this is written, that the husband did suggest that they open up the relationship in a one sided way. It didn't seem like there was a suggestion that he was also going to be exploring because he.

We don't know.

We don't know. But it seems like he was kind of like, hey, you know what? I realized that like you didn't really get the experience. I did. I'm okay with you going out and getting it. So it's like on the one hand that's kind of like the offer that got made and perhaps the offer that's still on the table. That being said, I am really curious. Why is it that you are so not okay with this? I mean, I think I can see.

It'S that, yeah, not is written in all caps. I'm not comfortable.

I mean it's. I think where that's coming from is, you know, she admits it. This idea that she feels like it's owed to her. So it's like, well, if this is owed to me, it's about me. I don't love that he doesn't get like he's not, you know, the world kind of fucked me up. So I, therefore I deserve special treatment or I deserve something, you know, beyond what my husband deserves. Which is a tricky, It's a tricky line of thinking. And like, I'm not saying that you're wrong for thinking that it's fucked up, that fucked up things happened to you and fucked up things happen to all of us in different shapes and sizes. And that's life in a fucked up kind of way. And yeah, it's like we don't get to use our trauma or the shitty things that happen to us as an excuse for why we get to do something different or be treated differently than somebody else.

It is tricky because I don't want to be so black and white as to say like, like, if you're opening the relationship, both people have to do things. Like there are situations where, like, one partner truly does feel comfortable with the other exploring. And they're like, yeah, I don't, I don't feel the need to myself, but I'm happy with you doing that. And again, like, we're all about, there's no one size fits all relationship model. There's no one thing that's going to work for everybody. So I don't want to make any hard and fast rules like that. But I think the, if it was just a scenario where she, if she was like, like, you know, I'm, I would like for us to open things up. I'm fine. If he, you know, he says he doesn't really want to, that's okay. But like, I would be okay with him. Like, that feels different to me than her saying, like, I'm absolutely not okay with him doing anything outside or even.

If it was like, well, he's saying that he doesn't want to, but it's important to me that like, you know, that it's not this one sided thing. But I'm finding it really hard for me to like, truly think through what that's gonna be like since he's, since he's saying that he's not going to. Yeah, like I, that would be a, you know, someone might feel that way and that would be an honest way to acknowledge that of like. And I would be like, yeah, that, that's fair. I think that's fair. If you're like, I think I'm okay with this, but I'm really struggling to like fully think this through since my partner is like saying they're not. I can act on it and I trust that they, they're probably not for a while, but they could in the future.

Also. The other thing that gives me pause in this one is our sex life has been riddled with problems.

Yeah.

I'm curious what we need to know more about that. Obviously we should have given this disclaimer at the top of the episode, but obviously we're just getting a little snippet of very long, complex histories. So that's always the caveat that we like to give, like, super easy for us to sit here in our bed and be like, yeah, don't do it, or, yes, do it. But we don't know, like, the exact full story here. But, yeah, I would love to see them coming from a place of, like, you know, everybody has baggage. Everybody's been through stuff. Like, there's zero shame about having problems with your sex life. We've had problems with our sex life, but we do need to, like, I want to see them getting to a better place before they start considering this option.

Yeah. And I'm, like, rereading parts of this and. Yeah. You saying, like, I feel like. Or I feel almost like I'm owed this opportunity. Not from him. I'm. Well, I'm curious. Where do you feel like you're owed that opportunity from? I imagine it's sort of like from the church, from, you know, the way that sex was, the way that sex was taught to you, etc. To me. You know what that. And obviously, like, this is also coming from sort of a, like, addiction recovery perspective, too. But, like, if you are feeling that way, I think what is likely underlying that is that you have a lot of resentment towards whatever that place is that you feel owes you something. And you would be much better served trying to process that resentment, find a way to move past that. Because. Because you going out and having sex with other people isn't going to take that resentment away for you. Like, the only way that you can take that away is to figure out how to come to terms with what happened and kind of accept and almost like, find a way to forgive whatever that institution or that society or whatever that gave you all that shit, as hard as that sounds right now, like, that's the way that you break that down. And that takes work, but going out and having sex with other people isn't going to take that away.

All right, well, to wrap things up, I wanted to read one final submission that someone sent in to give you a really great. This is, like, a great example of somebody who I really think should explore an open relationship.

Spoiler alert.

Yeah. Well, I just want you to hear the differences in how this person talks about their decision versus some of the other questions that we've. I think this is a great example. My partner and I are in the process of discussing how to open up our relationship. There are several reasons, but the main one is that I'm a bisexual woman who has very different life experience than my partner, who is 10 years older. Than me, and I feel like I have more room to develop personally and sexually. The other reason is because we both feel uncomfortable with the idea of limiting the other person and have discussed that we don't mind the thought of our partner having fun with other people. We feel like we have a very strong loving base to start from, and we want to try to have a more unconventional relationship from the models that we see around us. This is all in theory, of course, so we'll definitely have to have patience and strong communication to see how it works for us. Like, boo. Yes, yes, yes. You guys absolutely should. I'm so excited for you. Like, the way that they describe, it's just such a contrast to, like, the ways that the other others were describing.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's really interesting to read through if you're someone who's considering and kind of read through that and be like, hey, do you. How many of those boxes do you check? Have you thought about that? How does that feel to you? Because it's almost like, I can read through this, and I relate with some of these things. I think for Vanessa and I, we place a lot of value on kind of questioning a lot of societal assumptions. And we have kind of, like, our life and our businesses. What we do is in a very kind of, like, unconventional way. Like, we've decided not to have kids. We kind of, like, have a type of business that most people don't understand at all. We live life in that way, and we've kind of done a lot of work on, like, just not really caring what other people think about that. And, I mean, so, like, I very much relate with that. And, you know, we talk about this when it comes to kind of, like, relationship structures, where it's like. Like, that enjoying of unconventionality for us doesn't really extend to relationships. Neither of us feel the pull towards that. And so it's just like, I think it's just interesting to kind of go through that and you got to be honest with yourself of, like, okay, cool. I relate with that. I agree with that. And oop, this one. Oop. I've never found myself feeling that way. I've never found myself feeling this other way. And it's like, yeah, if you're not finding yourself feeling those ways and maybe this is not the right fit for you.

All right, well, let us know if you're interested in this topic. We got so many other submissions of stories that were super fascinating. We didn't have all the time to get to all of them today, so let us know, Come over to Instagram, Vanessa and Xander and let us know if you want to Hear A Part 2 of this episode and we will link that guide that I mentioned earlier, the Art of Initiation. If you feel like you don't know how to initiate, you don't feel confident, you don't know what to do when your partner initiates, or how to turn them down gracefully, if you don't feel super solid in your initiation and consideration skills, then definitely check that out. We'll put the link in the show notes.

And before we go, we have one final request for you. If you loved this episode, we would love it if you just popped onto Apple Podcasts and left us a review. Reviews go so far for us in helping the algorithm recommend this podcast to other people, letting other people know that hey, we are a legit podcast. People love us, we know what we're talking about and we try to make it worth your while because every week we pick a review of the week to win one of our master classes. And so if you hear your review read, I'm about to read a review. So if this is you, get in touch with us because you have won the Review of the week. Impossible not to share. I have become addicted to this podcast. I find myself in so many situations referencing pillow talks and recommending people follow because it is so relatable, relevant and they put into words so many of my feelings. They are amazing. So yeah, your review can be that short. It can be that easy. Just go to Apple Podcasts, go to like the main pillow talk page on there, scroll down to the bottom and you will see a spot to leave a five star rating and a review.

All right, well that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week when we talk about long distance relationships.

Sam.