Episode 181: A Brutally Honest Relationship Check-In

I actually feel really great about us. I do.

Okay, should I go first then, since I have the complaints?

Do you?

No, I don't have. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are going rogue. We had an entirely different episode planned for you. Specific topic we were going to talk about.

We did.

And today I just started getting these vibes of, like, I think we need to go rogue and maybe just talk about what's really been going on.

That sounds. Sounds ominous. Wow.

Maybe a little more ominous than I meant to, babe.

We need to talk about what's really going on.

Well, we've just had a lot going on, like, in the business, in our personal lives, in our relationship, and to be totally honest, like, I was looking at the topic that we were supposed to talk about, and I was like, I just. I don't have it in me today. I don't have it in me today. I just, like. I don't know. I needed to use the podcast as a personal therapy session, I guess.

Oh, I have therapy right after this podcast, actually.

I know. We're actually on a tight timeline to make sure that we finish this recording before you have therapy.

I know I'm gonna get out of this and be like, oh, okay, what am I gonna talk about in therapy now? But, you know, I. That's a. That's a quality problem to have.

So hopefully you don't mind, listener, dear listener, listening in on us, just, like, really getting real with each other. And also getting real with you too. I mean, it's always. It's always our intention to be authentic in our business, obviously. Like, we're not telling you every single thing that's going on in every single parts of our lives. But, like, we also have zero interest in having this brand where everything, like, looks pretty perfect and so curated, and we're just like, ultimate hashtag goals. Like, we want to be real.

Best sucks ever.

Oh, is that a hashtag too?

Yeah, hashtag best sex ever, every night of the week.

Oh, Lord. Well, we'll talk about that. So today we're Going to talk about how we're really doing.

How are we really?

So you tell me, Xander, right in this moment, what are you feeling right in this moment?

In this moment, I'm feeling like there were not enough hours in the day today to do the things that I needed to do.

Where did today go?

Yeah, today we have so much more to do. We do. But the thing that I have to. Basically, the thing that I have to do is, in the scheme of things, is a somewhat, like, exciting thing. So that's a positive. I mean, how am I doing right now? I mean, look, we're gonna talk about this in a lot more detail.

Just, like, in this moment.

In this moment.

Just first, tell me, in this moment.

What'S up for you in this moment? Well, I don't know. I'm actually. All right in this moment right now. This is one of the few times that I am really happy that we record this podcast from bed. It's actually not the most comfortable thing.

For me sitting up.

The. Sitting up and also the. The twist of my body. I think that that is actually not so good for me.

Maybe we should just lie down.

Yeah. So maybe I should just get really.

Don't look at me.

While we're getting. I'm getting more comfortable. Maybe I'm just gonna look straight ahead and not actually look at you, Vanessa. But. Okay, no, no, I was actually kind of. I was trying to make a joke, though, that, like, I'm actually kind of glad that I'm in bed because something about getting into bed, it's, like, easy to just set aside all the other stuff that was going on before this. But no, I was, like, 10 minutes ago. I was feeling a bit stressed. Yeah, a bit stressed. We have work going on at our house, and we have for, like, about a month now, and it was kind of loud today, and a lot of jacket. It just sort of feels like you don't have any privacy. And then on top of that, like, we had a neighbor complaining to us about it, which is a whole other level of annoyance complaining and, like, insinuating some things that they. That they have no idea what they are actually talking about. And so then it's just like, how much do you actually want to engage and be like, no, let me show you how much I know what I'm talking about. But we didn't. We didn't engage. Instead, we decided to record a podcast. So, yeah, how are you doing in this here very moment, Vanessa?

Okay, I have to keep it real. I'm annoyed that you didn't ask me how I was doing. I had to, like, write in, like, a note to him being like, ask me how I'm doing. So I'm a little annoyed about that.

Oh, okay.

I wanted to talk about how I'm doing.

Well, yes, I knew that we were going to talk about how you were doing. The reason I paused was because I just kind of ran out of steam. But, like, I was. I was, like, thinking that I had more to say, and I was just thinking if I had finished answering the question or not. But I have, so it's your turn now.

Okay. I'm feeling really frustrated about, like, yeah, we've just had jackhammering going on for an hour, like, right in front of where we are, and texting with this freaking neighbor is, like, driving me nuts. We've had a lot of neighbor drama this year, unfortunately, and it just, like, oh, it makes me so uncomfortable. Just, like, having negative energy, like, on both sides has been really hard. So I just feel super annoyed at this neighbor and frustrated and, like, she just, like, she's so intense. She just ratchets from 0 to 100 so quickly and loses all sense of rationality and also won't talk to us just like normal human beings. She just has to ratchet the intensity up. And I'm like, just have a conversation with me, like the kind, compassionate, understanding human being that you know me to be. I just. I don't know. It gets really triggering for me when people don't, like, just. At least I get that emotions come up. But it's like, at least just try to start rationally and kindly. And then if we have to ratchet up, we have to ratchet up. But don't start at 100.

Yeah. Or, like, don't immediately jump to the, like, worst possible conclusion and then start being like, oh, you must be doing X, Y, and Z. And it's like, wait, why didn't you just ask me? Because the answer is no, that's not happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, so people going, people, let's. Let's broaden out the scope now, and let's talk about, like, what's really been going on this year. And I'll start here, so you don't have to ask me.

Yeah, you know what? Hey, you know what? Let's get real. I can imagine how that even though this was in the podcast and I told you what was going on for me, I imagine that this feels just like. This is a broader theme. This is one of the things that we. One of our ongoing issues. Imagine that that felt a lot to you. Like, I, like I wasn't letting you speak. I wasn't making space for you.

Yeah, it did. Yeah, it is. That is something that we talk about. And I do think like so much of it just comes down to socialization. Like, I know you to be a really kind, respectful, like, open hearted, generous person. And you also have gotten socialization for your entire lifetime that like, what you think and feel really matters and is very important and that you should be able to like, share that and people should listen to that. And I have received socialization my entire life because I'm a woman that what I think and feel isn't as important and I should apologize for sharing it and I shouldn't share it because maybe it's gonna be too much or people are gonna think I'm a bitch or, you know, any of this kind of crap. So sometimes it just feels. Yeah, I just feel that in the moment where it feels like you take up a lot of space and then there isn't as much space left for me. And it's just hard sometimes.

Yeah.

The most wonderful time of the year is just about here. But we all know our to do lists are a million miles long at this time of year. And somehow pet needs always seem to be a I'll do that tomorrow kind of thing. Because there are only so many hours in the day. So that's why we choose to do our pet shopping on Chewy. Chewy has absolutely everything you need to keep your pet healthy and happy. You can shop on your schedule. Everything gets shipped right to your door in one to two days. Days. And it's for all pets. We use it for our dogs, Chauncey and Maggie. But there are also things for cats, birds, fish, reptiles and more. They have an incredible month filled with fun and surprises. Holiday savings up to 40 or even up to 50% off. 24 to 48 hour flash sales. Buy one, get one free and so much more. So keep checking the site to see what new deals are available so you can get something special for all the beloved pets in your life. And this time of year, Chewy's auto ship feature is the real stress reducing hero. We have set up recurring shipments of all the essentials. We're never running out. And you can also cancel or change your auto ship order at any time. They also have top tier 24. 7 customer service. You can get expert advice over chat or phone, day or night. And if your pets don't love something, Chewy's 100% satisfaction guarantee lets you return it within a year, no questions asked. So Chauncey and Maggie have a lot of Chewy favorites, but if they had to pick the bully sticks, the odorless bully sticks would be the winner. They are both obsessed with these bully sticks. They keep them busy for, like, up to an hour at a time. We honestly have to take them away from them because they get a little too obsessive over them and could keep going for many more hours. But it's just so easy, so quick to use Chewy. And we love being able to spoil our little guys because we love them so much. Chewy is helping to take the stress out of the holiday. Take advantage of amazing holiday savings and shop your personal favorites@chewy.com pillows that's chewy.com pillows chewy.com pillows and I know I don't ever have a question about the intention. Like, I never think that you're, like, what I have to say is more important than Vanessa. I never think that. And the incident that just happened was, like, literally so minor. It was just like a little tiny twinge of like, okay, now you ask me about how I'm feeling.

In fact, often most of what I have to say is less important than you because you are much more of the expert in this area than I am.

But, like, yeah, no, we've had. We've had a lot of instances where you can talk for, like, 10 to 15 minutes straight without stopping to check in.

True. Like, and I don't realize, to me, I'm like, oh, it's been a couple of minutes. Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I. You haven't made. You haven't paused a single time. So my options are like to interrupt you, which I am bad at interrupting. And I'm trying actively not to do it so much. So it's like, my options are to interrupt you or to just stay silent for 15 minutes, and then it's like, I don't even know how to respond by the time you do stop. Because I'm like, you went through, like, 100 different things I want to respond to. And I don't. Like, I can't, like, pick up, pick it up, back from the beginning. So that's a thing. That's a thing between the two of us. But, yeah, I mean, scrolling back out, Zooming back out. Not scrolling, zooming back out. It's been. It's been the year of. And Xander and I both have the word and tattooed on our bodies to remind ourselves that multiple things can be true at the same time. Even seemingly conflicting things can be true at the same time. It's our favorite word in the, in the English language. It's our favorite piece of relationship advice advice. And this has definitely been the year of. And it's been I think probably the most challenging year we've ever had in the business. And also some of the best news, some of the best opportunities, some of the most exciting things. And honestly it's been tricky to juggle both. It's like both extremes. Like really hard and really good and very little like right in the middle.

Yeah. Or I mean at the very least it's been the trickiest year in kind of like this iteration of the business that we have where we are both in it all in together. There were some years where I was still partially doing my own thing and partially working with Slash for Vanessa and I feel like there were maybe one or two kind of like challenging years there. A lot of the challenge was self inflicted on my part of like me not being able yet to commit fully to what I really wanted to do. Whether that was be all in with you, be, you know, 50, 50, be all in with my own business that I was also running at the time. And I didn't do a very good job at kind of managing that and figuring out how to make that decision. But yeah, since, since we've been fully all in together. Which by the way, best decision of my life for sure. Like with Without a Doubt. It's so, it's so funny because I spent so long agonizing. I know about that. And then it was like the moment I actually did it, like I've literally never once even considered any feeling of like regret or what if like it was just like, oh yeah, obviously that was the right, like my life is so immeasurably better because of that. So that's, that's wild to me. But getting back. Yeah.

I mean I feel like this year has been like we've had to make so many big decisions about the business. We've had to reevaluate so many things and really trying to like find our way in these uncertain times. And I know for me like in general I love being a leader and I love being an entrepreneur and a CEO, but this year I've been like, can somebody come in and make these decisions for me? Because I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. It's like imposter syndrome has come up for me feeling like I don't like a lack of self confidence. It's sort of like Wait, who put me at the helm of this business? I did. But I'm like, how am I at the head of this business? How am I supposed to make all these decisions? I never went to business school. I don't know anything about, like, leadership. I don't know anything about, like, anything business related. Like, I've figured things out as I've gone, and I've just made decisions based on the best information I've had. But this year has been a real, like, what am I doing? Can a real adult come in and just, like, lead this for me and I just get to do the fun stuff?

No. The answer is no. That's what we learned. That's what we learned. I mean, I feel like what happened was at the beginning of the year, we kind of adopted this mantra almost of like, what got you here won't get you there. And I think that we kind of. We kind of took that in the moment. I don't know, I feel like we heard somebody say that line and we were like, oh, yeah, that's. That sounds like, oh, that. That really hits. And I think, yeah, for us, it was sort of like, okay, yeah, like, in order for us to take the next step in our business to, like, reach a whole new audience or, you know, accomplish some of these big hairy goals that we have.

Harry.

Harry. Yeah, okay. Hairy or shaved?

Shaved goals.

I mean, you just have to, like, bring in a little sexual innuendo, even in a serious episode, right?

Yeah.

But no, I mean, to reach some of these big, scary, hairy, scary goals that we have is like, oh, well, you know, like, we, you know, we kind of like, bootstrap this whole business together and got us to where we are. And, you know, maybe it's like we need. We need a lot of, like, outside advice or expertise or. Or whatever to really get us to the next level. Because, like, we've. We haven't been to the place that we want to go to. But I think, like, as we are, you know, starting to get into the tail end of the year, I feel like where we've come out of that realizing is that, like, ultimately, like, if you want to build something for you that's based on your ideals and your values and your expertise and your knowledge, at the end of the day, like, it's not like, you don't have to do it alone, but, like, you do have to step up as the leader and you have to rely on your knowledge and your expertise, and you have to, like, trust that. I feel like we kind of had a. We Both had a sort of crisis of confidence early in the year. And I think we've kind of, like, learned that, you know, actually we do have to trust our own intuition. We do have to rely on and trust our own knowledge and our value.

And I mean, I'll be honest, like, this year has really not gone as we had planned or as we had hoped in the business. And we've had to make a lot of, like, big and hard decisions where we're really trying to think about what is the business need versus what do we want as individuals or what feels comfortable for us as individuals. And it's also the year that I've felt. I've felt the weight of the responsibility of having a team so much stronger than I have in other years. Like, I love having a team. It's so important to me to be a good boss, to have team members who enjoy what they're doing and enjoy, like, the work culture that we've created. That's so important to me. And this year it's also been like, whoa, it's really scary to be fully responsible for someone's livelihood. Like, not only their livelihood, but also families. Like, we're supporting entire families.

Yeah.

And that's a lot of responsibility, and it's scary. And it's really expensive, too, when you're trying to do it the right way, not trying to, like, just, you know, get away with paying people as little as you can and having as few benefits as you can. Like, it's really scary. Having a small business is scary.

Yeah. I mean, no, having a small business is awesome and.

And terrifying.

And many. For, you know, many, many years, it's like, oh, awesome, great. Like, we're doing okay to good to, well, and like, no problem. And. But, you know, and the reality as a small business, especially in, you know, I'll just say it, like, and this year, I think being an election year, having a little bit of, like, uncertainty in the economy, all of a sudden you're. You're like, oh, yeah. Like, you know, oh, yeah. If you have a couple more months that look like, you know, those couple other months that you had, like, okay, you might need to start making tough decisions or. Or whatever. It's like, you don't want to think about that stuff as. As, you know, an owner or a leader of a small business, you don't want to think about it at all. And you do have to think about it sometimes. Yeah. And I mean, actually, honestly, like, we. Things. Things have been really feeling like they've been turning around in A positive way, just from both like a mindset, a feelings perspective, and also like a results perspective, which is super awesome. I feel so grateful.

Yeah.

For that. And it's just a good reminder that no matter how successful you are, there are going to be years, months, weeks, whatever it is, where there are questions, where there's uncertainties and you have to kind of accept, oh yeah, like things could turn bad really quickly like that. That's always a possibility. Regardless of the planning or, you know, all. All the stuff that you can do right, things can go wrong. And you know, we had kind of had a good run of not thinking about that for a long time.

And then we've just had a lot of other stuff going on in our personal life too. Like Xander already mentioned, you know, we've had this work going on in the house for the last month, but actually this entire year we've had one project going on with the house or another. We basically had a drainage issue that we just could not figure out. Like, where is this water? Like these leaks, where are they coming from? And we did all these different projects thinking like, okay, this is the thing. Okay, now this is the thing. This is the root issue. We've spent so much money, so much time, and there's like always people at our house, which when we, you know, we work here and we live here and we got a lot of windows.

Yeah, we. Yeah. Are.

There's like nowhere to hide sometimes where I'm like, I don't have like, my home is. I'm set. I'm a person who, like, my home is my sanctuary. I need to feel like comfortable and spacious and peaceful in my house. And there have been so many times where I'm like, there's literally nowhere in my house I can go that feels safe because there are people everywhere and noise everywhere.

Oh, yeah.

I'm like a really. I'm discovering about myself that I'm a very noise sensitive person. Like, I get overstimulated from noise so easily and I get really snappy and just irritable and it's like I feel my whole body getting tense and I can't handle it. And so it's just. Yeah. Having this much. I mean, we literally were having like concrete being jackhammered half an hour ago and it's just like it hurts my whole body.

Yeah, we were, we were lucky in that at our house in la, we didn't really have to do any serious work on it other than the first couple of months when we moved in, which looking back, was actually A huge challenge and, like, really impacted my mental and physical well being, you know? But then we got, like, four years after that of, like, not really needing to do anything. Part of that was because we bought a house that had just been flipped. And so then there were a couple things that we needed to do to kind of like, finish that up. And then after that, it was like, okay, yeah, like, it. It's fine. All the. All the heavy lifting has already been done. This house, which we've moved into, which is incredible. I love it.

I know.

I love it. I love it so much.

That's why I get so mad when people. When we try to, like, share on Instagram, people are like, you should just sell it and move your house. Sounds terrible. I would never put up with that. I'm like, screw you. It's my house and I love it.

You don't know us.

You don't know my house.

No, no. But no, no, our house. Our house is great. There are just. There were. There are a couple things that need some addressing, and we are. We are finally addressing them. I do think this.

I do think we found the. I really think we found the root cause this time.

Oh, yeah, we. We did. It turned out our main sewer line. Yeah, it's our own, literally. I kid you not. Yeah. Basically what we have been doing is tear up part of the. The patio or like our kind of like, patio deck thing at our house to waterproof a wall that was semi underground that had never. That actually somehow, shockingly, had been built with only plywood, meaning that there's no way to fully waterproof it. And when the ground gets wet, like, water can seep in. So we had to, like, dig this thing out so that we could expose the wall and then build a real proper wall. And as we were doing that, we found that water was starting to pool in the, like, hole that they were digging. And it turned out that our main sewer line, the line that is basically all the water that comes out any drain from our entire house. It was an old ceramic pipe from, like the 1960s or so, which is when our house was originally built. It was just cracked and water was pouring out of it. So when you're running the sinks, that just means that clean water, clean ish water is pouring out. But when you're using the bathroom, it means whatever you flush down the toilet is also doing that.

So delightful.

So somehow incredibly. It didn't like that area as they were digging it up. It wasn't, like, disgusting.

It never smelled.

It never smelled like they Said they said that it smelled like a tiny bit, but it wasn't like a cesspool.

It's cause our shit don't stink.

Yeah, it's cause our shit don't stink. Ooh.

Yeah. Okay, so we've had all that. We've also had a lot of health stuff going on this year, especially with you, my friend. Do you want to do a super quick synopsis of your mouth journey this year?

Sure, yeah. So I actually discovered kind of maybe in the. Maybe in like April or so, that. That, yeah, I have an abnormally narrow upper palate. Like, basically my upper. My upper teeth. That area is super narrow because when I was a kid, my orthodontist removed two of my top teeth as a way to more quickly straighten my teeth. And so he removed two teeth and then like, closed everything around that extra space rather than expanding my jaw outward to create enough space for my teeth to fit, which is what any orthodontist would do now. So as a result, I was not breathing well enough, and especially I was being impacted when I slept. Like, just getting a fraction of the oxygen that someone my age and size and whatnot should be getting. And so the result of all of this is just like, generally lower energy levels, which impacts so many elements of your life in ways that I couldn't even imagine because I, you know, at least since I was like 12 years old, just like, haven't been getting enough oxygen. So anyway, in June, I had this procedure to install a palatal expander in my mouth, which I have been slowly expanding since then. And, yeah, that's been a challenge because it's like I got Invisalign at the same time. The combination of the Invisalign and the expander in my mouth has given me a pretty substantial lisp. Like, you know, I'm sure that if you listen to an episode from, like, May or earlier, I will sound different than I do now when I do the podcast. I don't have my Invisalign in, so my lisp isn't as bad, but it's still. It's still.

You still lisping?

Yeah, I still lisp because there's all this metal in my mouth. Actually, amazingly, I'm getting part of it removed in like, a week or two, which is incredible. I'm very excited. We'll see if that's enough stuff removed so that I don't have the same lisp. Who knows? We shall see. But yeah, I mean, that. That has been a journey. I think, you know, beforehand, it was just like, oh, yeah, no, there's just going to be so many benefits and I'm going to be feeling better and better the more I expand. But the reality is, is, well, yes, I have, I have felt better, but it's also, I wasn't able to imagine, like just the kind of pain in the ass that it is having your voice impacted, like the way that you sound, the way that your mouth feels, having a bunch of metal in your mouth all the time. It sucks. Plus, I got sick a lot and I.

You have been sick so much this year.

Yeah, I had one really long, like five week long sickness before I got the palatal expander. But since I got it, I've also like, had two other like three to five week long lingering things. I think I've. I've taken. I've had to take like antibiotics like four or five times in the last year, which is really not good for you. And I mean, I'm really hoping and praying that once this thing entirely is removed that I'm gonna be in so much better health because it expands your sinuses too, which makes a huge difference. But for right now, I have like six titanium screws that go from my. From the bottom, like from the, you know, my inside of my mouth into my sinuses. So, like, that can't be great. That can't be great. That can't be great. On the flip side though, I have had zero allergies, which is wild. Life changing. Life changing. So it's been a weird trade off.

Horrible allergies.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, for me, it's been like I've been going on this journey with you, like, first and foremost, I'm super proud of you for deciding to do this. The Xander of past years really let a lot of his health issues, like, ignore them, you know, didn't take it seriously, didn't look into things. And that was very challenging for me as your partner. So I'm super proud of you for making the decision to do this, especially for something that like, didn't need to be done. It's not like you, you know, were bleeding or had a broken bone. You know, something like, obvious like you have to do something.

Yeah. It wasn't gonna kill me.

Yeah. So I'm super proud of you for doing it. And it's been so hard, like, it's been so hard watching and. Yeah, especially you getting sick so much. Obviously nobody's like, pleasant to be around when they're sick. Like, we feel miserable. It sucks. We don't want to be sick. And yeah, it's been hard to be around you sometimes.

It's been hard to be around me sometimes. Yeah.

It's like. Especially when it's stretching on for weeks at a time. Like, it's just like, oh, my God, is this ever going to end? Or is this just who Xander is now? He's just sick and miserable and cranky?

No, this isn't who I am.

I definitely. No, I have the tendency sometimes when, like, something's going, especially a health thing, if it's going on for a while, to think, like, oh, my God, is it always going to be this way? Like, I injured my knee in back in June on the bike trip. And it took, I think, almost two months to get better. And I was, like, starting to panic, like, oh, my God, is this just. This is just what my knee is like now.

You're like that kid that, like, viral video, like, the kid after the dentist.

Is going to last.

Going to last forever?

Yes, that is me. But, yeah, I mean, it's been hard to be around you and when you're in that kind of place. And just, like, this whole mouth procedure has been really challenging, too. Like, you've. I mean, there were times where all the metal in your mouth, it was, like, scraping up your tongue, you were bleeding and, like, crying and, like, I can't eat. You've had, like, panic about, you know, just all the crap in your mouth.

Yeah, I was expanding it too quickly.

It turned out you, like. And also you're just making a lot more noises with your mouth, which, as somebody who's realizing how sound sensitive they are, I'm like, oh, this is something new to adapt to. There's a lot of slurping going on, but, yeah. And oh, my God, so many appointments. So many appointments. Like, really, like, it's been challenging schedule wise, just navigating all of that with you. It's been a lot. So let's, like, zoom in a little bit more now into, like, kind of how are things going lately? I do feel like it feels like we turned a corner, like, in the last week or two. Really, like, the energy really started to feel like it's shifting. I feel like we're coming out the other end of the tunnel. I'm hopeful that we'll stay on the other end of the tunnel for, like, a little bit. I know there's a new tunnel coming. That's just life. But, like, I'm feeling pretty good. But, yeah, getting the chance to kind of, like, look back now and reflect on the last couple months. I'm like, holy shit. Honestly, not even the last few months, it's like, just this whole year has felt really challenging. And I think what I'm noticing is I'm really good at just, like, gritting my teeth and getting through a busy period. Like, I have a lot of willpower. I can just, like, rise to the occasion and be like, let's fucking do this. I just gotta grind my. Like, no, wait, what is it?

No, it's your grindstone.

Or, like, dig my feet in. I just gotta dig my heels in.

No, no, no. Dig your heels in is when you are resistant to something.

No, like, you're digging. Like, I'm. Like, I'm digging in. I'm doing it.

Okay, you can say that. But no, no digging my heels in. No, no, that means something else. What? No, no. Like, if I'm. If I'm like. If I'm like, oh, babe, you just gotta work a little harder. We're almost done. And you're like, no, I'm not gonna do it. I could be like, quit digging your heels in. Like, digging your heels in is like, when someone's, like, trying to pull you or something, and you're, like, sticking your heels in the ground. Like, I'm not gonna move.

All right, whatever. I'm diggin.

All right, Ms. Malathor.

So, yeah, it's like, I can get through it, but I've had so many experiences where I look back a day or a week later at the decisions that I made, and I've been like, wait, what did I decide? Why did I decide that? So it's this. I don't know how to describe. Like, in the moment, I feel like I'm doing it. I'm like, I'm a champ. I'm getting through this. I'm powering through. And then, like, very shortly afterwards, I'm like, no, you were not. You were not handling that very well. And you made dumb decisions that make zero sense. So it's, like, kind of scary looking back at sometimes and being like, ooh. I don't know if I can, like, trust myself as much as I think I can in the moment, because I guess I'm so. I'm so overwhelmed that, like, yes, I can make a decision and I can move forward, but it's not as good of a decision, as thought through of a decision as I think it is also.

So it turns out we don't make good decisions when we're stressed and overwhelmed. Interesting news flash.

And like, yeah. And there have been a lot of times where it's like, it's too late to change it, which is tough too. I also have been trying so hard to take good care of myself this year. Like, I know nothing good will happen if I sacrifice my self care. Like, no matter how busy we get, I am really committed to like, working out is the perfect example. I do not skip workouts because I'm too busy. That does not happen because I know if I don't work out, my mental health really suffers. And I know, like, I can be so cranky, so stressed when I go into the gym. When I leave the gym, I'm like, oh my God, thank God I did that. So I've been really good about sticking to those kinds of things and doing a lot of stuff that feels extra too. Like cold plunges and sauna and red light therapy and, you know, walks with the dogs, all this stuff. But I've also had this experience a lot the last few months where it just feels like it's not enough. And that feels so discouraging. Like I'm like, I can't possibly do any more self care. I'm doing so much. If your average person saw how much self care I'm doing on a daily basis, they'd be like, girl, like, you are like the. The average person just doesn't. Is not like, doesn't have the time to do that but. And it still doesn't feel like enough, which is. I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's. It just, it's challenging sometimes. I'm like, I. I can't do anymore. There's no time for anymore. I don't have the energy for anymore. But like, I'm still stressed and tired and overwhelmed despite doing all the things. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay.

So yeah, I mean, yeah, for me too. Like, like I said, the last, I don't know, six months though, I guess, honestly, if I'm being honest about it. Yeah, probably the whole year. The whole year have been tough. Yeah. The combination of, yeah, work, business stuff, mouth stuff, work on the house stuff, that sort of constant unknown of like, what else are we gonna have to do? Though? I really do think with the house, like, this is the last thing that we are really gonna have to do. We've been kind of putting off this phase of the work for a long time trying to like, is there anything else that, you know, could explain this? Or is there anything, you know, are there any ways that we can do this cheaper or more easily? And finally we're just like, no, we're doing it so that's all good. But yeah, I mean, like, for me, about a month ago, yeah, about a month ago, I had a little bit of a meltdown, which, like, in hindsight, that, that was, that was like one of the best things that has happened to me all year. It wasn't. It wasn't best for you because you took the.

No, it was not. No, no. It just. I just have to laugh because I know everybody sees you as like, oh, he's so chill and so laid back. Just like cool surfer dude most of the time. Xander has a meltdown. He has a meltdown.

He's a drama queen.

Oh, yeah, Major drama queen. Okay, tell us about your meltdown.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to go into like, the details of exactly what happened. I do have some boundaries. But in hindsight, that was one of the best things that has happened to me this year because it just. I needed like, I needed like the mirror to be turned around on onto me, to kind of help me see that, like the things that I had been doing to try to like, manage my, like my stress, my emotions, my. My everything. Like the things that I had been doing just weren't working. And what I realized was like, I was doing the same kind of self care and mindset type of stuff, kind of like the same practice that I had been doing for the last couple of years. And I was expecting to get the same results that I had been getting. And you know, all those things, that kind of whole practice that I had, it worked great when things were running smoothly, but it was definitely not enough. Like once things got more challenging and I was, you know, and I think that's the reality with self care stuffing. We are such habit driven beings as humans. It's like usually we find something that works for us and we're like, oh, great, all right, I found my thing. This is what I do. I don't need to worry about this anymore. Right? And then you start seeing signs that like, oh, maybe you should worry about this or maybe this isn't working, but you, like, you don't want to admit, like, oh, God, do I have to do something new? Do I have to figure out a new process or I have to figure out like a new practice for how I run my life or how I keep myself, you know, balanced. And I can see now I just kind of had my head buried in the sand for most of the year. And I'm sorry, Vanessa, because some of that ended up getting taken out on you. Definitely. And I'm sure that was not a good experience for you. But having that little meltdown, it was sort of like the. I might bury my head in the sand sometimes, but like the moment I get my head out of the sand and I see, you know, it's like. And like I said, like that mirror is turned around. I can see myself in the mirror. Like, I can't unsee that. Yeah, it's like the moment I see it, I'm like, okay, yep, I've been doing this wrong. I've been doing that wrong. Like, okay, this has to change. Like, you know, once I, once I know it's going on, I can't like talk myself out of it anymore. So yeah, I had to make. I had to make a couple changes to my routine and my well being practices. And I mean it's. This is just the funny thing about that is that like it can feel, you know, I know it can feel so hard to make a change. There's so much resistance. You make up all these reasons why it's not gonna work before you even try it. And it was like the moment I started making even the smallest little changes, I immediately started feeling everything shift for me. I started feeling happier. I started just like having a totally different mindset with how I was looking at the challenges that were coming up for me. And it really was, it was. I mean, who knows, all kinds of things happened. But that was also the exact same time that I had my last appointment with my orthodontist and he was like, okay, cool. Yeah, in four weeks we're taking out your. Your expander. And it was like as soon as, like it was like all these things happening at once and it was just like, oh, boom. Light at the end of the tunnel. This is, this is awesome. So yeah, for me, like right now, like despite being, yeah. Busy and tired at times, like I'm feeling so much happier in this last, I don't know, month, last couple weeks. Thanks to. Yeah, like, you know, things starting to turn around work wise. Definitely approaching, you know, feeling like I'm approaching the end of this mouth journey. I'm definitely also seeing a lot of the positive impacts in terms of like, more energy, better sleep and also. This sounds silly to all you people out there who don't surf, but we've been getting some better waves recently and that makes such a big impact to me. We had like the worst summer of all time in this area and you know, that really impacted my well being this summer and into right now. But winter is coming and so are the waves and I'M fucking ready for it. Okay, but now, should we get really real about how we're feeling about the podcast?

Sure. The podcast has been a little bit tough lately. I'll be totally honest. Like, it's been feeling like we're out of. We've gone through, like, all the major topics that we really want to do.

Episodes about in, like, 180 episodes.

Yeah, well, and it's like, I don't know. I'm not feeling as inspired by the, like, okay, we're going to talk about topic XYZ, and here's your 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 tips about XYZ. It's just like, I don't know. That format isn't feeling super exciting to me. I have been having a lot of fun doing the more unhinged, like, reader or listener submission things. Like, am I the asshole types of things or, like, tiebreakers, that kind of stuff.

Is this cheating one?

Yeah. But I've definitely worried, like, are those episodes fun to listen to? Are they enjoyable, like, for our listeners? Or do you guys, you know, obviously, like, when we go through a specific topic, there's a lot more, like, tangible value.

Like, meat on the bone.

Yeah. Here. These, you know, five tips that we're giving you or five steps or whatever it is. So I find myself feeling nervous about. Yeah. Making sure that we're being entertaining enough and providing enough value. And to be totally honest, like, the podcast, there's so little payoff for us and for how much we have to invest in this. Between audio editing, video editing, you know, getting all the. All the. Like, there's a million little pieces of things that have to be uploaded and edited and written and all this shit. Like, there are countless hours spent on one single episode. And we do sell ads to help, like, support all of that. But, like, we are not making money off this podcast. Like, it's. I mean, we are, but, like, not.

Like, relative to other stuff that we do.

It's worth. Like, this is not a. Yeah, this is not like a Call Her Daddy or Armchair expert where they're, like, raking in millions a year. Nowhere close to that. So that can be challenging, too. And it's like, we put so much work into this, but our numbers are down with the podcast. And finally, I'll also say, like, it feels hard to feel a sense of community with our listeners because we can't really interact with you guys. Like, we feel a huge sense of community on Instagram because we're talking to you and you're talking to us all day long. And A lot of you listeners, like, come over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. We love that you guys aren't making podcasts back to talk to us. Right.

Podcast me back.

There is a little bit of a sense of, like, it's just Xander and I sitting here in our bed talking to each other, hoping that people like this and it's helpful, but it feels kind of like a little. I don't know, it just. It doesn't feel as connected. We don't get as much feedback because there's not an easy way to give that feedback. So that makes it challenging too. Okay, how are we feeling about us? How are you feeling about us?

Wow, that tone of voice sounded.

I mean, I'm trying to wrap us up. You got therapy. We gotta go, man. How do you feel about us?

I actually feel really great about us. I do.

Okay, should I go first then, since I have the complaints.

Do you?

No, I don't have. I don't have a ton, lovey. I'll go first, then go for it. We can end on a more positive note with you. No, I'm trying to. I'm trying to be really real.

Like, hit it, let's go.

No, I feel really good about us overall. I feel like we've had a very challenging year and we have weathered the storms together. I feel close to you and I am proud of us, of everything that we're doing. And we've definitely had more dry spells over the last few months.

Mostly health related.

Health related? Yeah, we've had some, like, I mean, long health related dry spells, which are challenging for me. I'm a sex before connection type. So when we're not having regular sex, like, I feel disconnected. Xander's a connection before sex. We're the opposite of the typical gender breakdown in male female relationships. But, yeah, we haven't been having as much sex as I'd like to be having these last few months for understandable reasons. But also, it's like when you get in that routine of not having sex, it's so much easier to just keep not having sex. Like, getting back in the saddle feels so, so much harder. So I've just, like, felt like our rhythm has been off, you know? Yeah. A lot more often. We're usually, like, very. We do a really good job of prioritizing our sex life and prioritizing intimacy usually. And I feel like it's been a bit harder.

What I do. I do feel like, though, that we are in a place in our relationship, though, where we are able to get back into the swing of things so much more easily and quickly than we ever have in the past. And I think that in, you know, the. We've been in much better communication in this last year of, like, you know, missing sex with each other and being able to talk. Being able to talk about that, Acknowledge it, because that really is, like, one of the biggest hacks to making a dry spell not last or making sure that both partners are on the same page. Like, hey, we are missing. We are missing each other physically.

I mean, when it comes to communication, I have felt like you and I put so much work into our communication, and I think we're both very skillful at communication. And we've also had a number of days where it feels like every conversation is so hard. I don't know if anybody listening can relate to that. Where it's just. There are certain days where you're like, we can't even talk about what are we gonna have for lunch without it, like, turning into a conversation that we then have to process and, like, take time for. And it just feels like walking through mud sometimes of, like, oh, my God, why? Like, why do we have to talk about. And it'll be like, the littlest thing. Like, someone gets a weird, snippy little tone or someone, like, phrases, something kind of weirdly. And most times, you and I are able to, like, we don't have this bar set where, like, communication has to be perfect. I think we do a good job of tolerating, like, the good enough communication. Like, okay, I didn't completely love the way you said that, but, like, it's fine, you know, I get what you mean, and I trust the intention, but I feel like we have had more times where we're both being really nitpicky with each other of, like, well, don't say it like that. And then we have to. And I will say, I think you in particular have been a little bit more nitpicky about, like, you. You know, say it. I want you to say it like that. Or say it over again or that was a weird tone or like, you didn't use eye language. And then, yeah, we've just had a number of conversations where it feels like it's actually more like full days where it feels like anytime we have to talk to each other, it just feels hard, you know, like we get kind of stuck in a little bit of a loop with each other.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm. One of my big development areas is being less people pleasing. So when you are. When you Are feeling like I'm being a little more nitpicky. That might just be the new normal of your boy standing up for himself.

Well, that's another point entirely. Like, you definitely have been putting a lot of work into not being people please y which I really appreciate, because I hate people pleasing.

But sometimes when it doesn't benefit.

No, no, no. I feel like people, especially people who are people pleasers, they're like, well, isn't it better, though? Like, it's so much nicer for the other person because I'm, like, pleasing them. I'm sacrificing myself to please this other person. But personally, I hate being on the receiving end of people pleasing. It doesn't feel safe to me. It doesn't evoke trust for me. I'm like, I need to know what you really think, what you really feel. We were actually having a conversation with a friend this weekend about conflict, and I was like, I am not afraid of conflict. I get a little bit of a jolt from conflict. I get a little energized from conflict. I'd rather know the authentic truth of how you're feeling and there to be some conflict than to feel that you're just people pleasing and placating me. And as you have been practicing swinging away from people pleasing, sometimes you've gone a little far in the other direction of being a little aggressive about.

Or maybe you're just not used to what it's like.

No, no. I mean, I like it when you. There are definitely times when you're, like, you know, you're standing up for yourself or you're stating your opinion, and I'm like, ooh, I like that. Though there have been times that you've, like, gone a little far in the other direction where I'm like, that's maybe a little bit unnecessary. You're, like, overcorrecting a bit.

Yeah, I'm figuring it out.

Yeah. And I have the space for that. I'm not expecting perfection from you in that. And I would rather be on that end of it where we're being, like, a little conflict y with each other. I would totally rather be there.

One of the other big realizations for me, I mean, I think as we work through some of those moments where it's like, okay, was that an overcorrection? Or, like, oh, are we just, like, bickering back and forth at each other of, oh, well, I wish you had said it like this. And then, oh, well. But I think you should have said, blah, blah, blah. One of the big realizations for me, I'm a person. Like, I don't get that same sort of charge or energy out of conflict. My, like, intrinsic desire is like, okay. Like, I want everything to feel okay. I want it to feel okay. And so sometimes in the midst of conflict, I can sort of lean into the conflict a little bit more, almost like trying to drive to a conclusion rather than leave something feeling a little uncertain or whatever. And one of the big things I've realized recently, and I think I've actually. We've started doing, which has actually been really counterintuitively helpful, is that it's, like, the moment it feels like we're starting to go in circles that, like, I can just be like, all right, cool. Like, sounds like we've both said what we want to say. Like. Like, we want to just, like, leave this here, go our separate, you know, go do something on our own for a little bit, and then, like, come back and see if there's anything left to talk about. Because for me, up until this realization, like, I would just. Internally, I'd just be like, we gotta get. We gotta figure this out. We gotta figure this out. What do I. Oh, like. Oh, like, she wants to stop. No, Like, I'm not done. Like, I wanna. Like, I want everything to feel okay. And I realized, like, no, like, I need to learn how to feel okay with myself, even when things maybe feel a little unsettled.

Yeah.

With Vanessa. And then I can, like, bring that settled energy back into our relationship rather than being like, I need our relationship to give me that settled energy. Like, I can't rely. Like, you can't rely on your relationship to be the thing that keeps you stable. Like, you need to be able to find ways to do that outside with yourself, with other people, with other activities. And one of the big things I realized was, like, I was. I wasn't doing that.

Yeah. I've really seen you do and practice that this year, especially the last couple months, and I've really appreciated that. And I like the direction that we're heading.

And I have. I have seen you make a lot of. I guess what I would say is progress in the realm of, like, if I say something that you interpret literally and you don't like the way literally that feels or sounds, you've been responding differently where you are. You know, you'll express how that feels. You'll hear me when I say, oh, hey, like, you know, this is. You know, as I replay that, I think this is what I was intending to say, and I'm sorry for the impact that it had on you, you've done a lot better sort of pivoting from those moments, which I really appreciate, because those used to be things that we got really stuck in.

That is. Yeah, that's one of the central dynamics that we have really struggled with as a couple, is that Xander is an expert external processor and I'm an internal processor. We just shared this on Instagram, and a ton of people reached out, and they were like, wait, wait, wait, I need to hear more about this. I think this is the issue with my partner and I as well. So let us know if you want us to do an episode just about that. I'm feeling kind of inspired about that. Maybe we would do another, more personal episode about, like, how we've struggled with this and what we've learned to navigate this. But come over to Instagram, we're Vanessa and Xander, and let us know if you want an episode about internal versus external. External processing. But how do you feel about us?

Well, I actually. I actually feel pretty great. Like, despite all the stuff going on and despite, you know, there's sort of being a time of some, like, recurring issues coming up, it feels like we've gotten to a really good. A much better place. It caught the way that we're. I worry that people are going to hear this and be like, oh, my God, they're, like, on verge of breaking up or they're having some really serious issues.

You think so?

I don't. Well, I don't know. I mean, I sound like we've gotten to a much better place. I was like, that sounds like, oh, that's. That sounds weird.

I don't. I don't think this sounds that bad at all.

I'm curious what. I'm curious what the people think. How bad. How bad do you think things really were?

How bad do you think it sounds? I was actually thinking. I was like, man, did we get, like, honest enough? Should we have, like, gone. Gone even deeper into things? That's. I mean, that. That just shows our different relationships with conflict, that you're, like, thinking that people are gonna think we're breaking up. We are nowhere close to breaking up. Like, we're taught the kinds of problems that I'm describing, us having, these are, like, the.

The difference between, like, 95 to 100% or something.

Yeah. I mean, we're. I'm so happy. And our relationship is in such a good place. We have challenges and things that we're working on like anyone else. Nobody has a perfect relationship, but I think we have an extraordinary relationship. And I'm so proud of the work that we continue to do on, you know, getting. Making ourselves better, learning more about each other, deepening our connection. Like, that's how actually I would describe it. I wouldn't say we have these, like, relationship ending problems. I would say we have challenges that we are actively trying to better understand so that we can have a deeper and deeper relationship. So it's not like trying to fix things so that we can stay together. It's like, how do we go even deeper in our intimacy with each other?

Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I mean, probably the biggest reason I feel really great about things is that I know that I've had a lot of big realizations about myself, especially in the last month, and especially in that people pleasing department. And not only have I had the realizations, I've put some of these things into practice because, yeah, it's one thing to be like, oh, yeah, I know I tend to do this, so I should therefore do that. And it's much harder to actually start doing that regularly. But I. I've actually put a lot of these things into practice, and I can see the impact that that's having on helping me show up better and which is with, like, a lot, like, more confidence. I didn't really realize that there were some areas that I was really lacking in, in confidence. And it, it feels good to be able to be like, oh, yeah, no, I. I deserve that. Or oh, no, like, oh, okay, that doesn't feel great between us for right now. Okay, I can go. I can like, self soothe. I can go, like, I can go say some nice things to myself and we can check back in in an hour or two. Because very often when you check back in in an hour or two, you're both like, yeah, that was pretty stupid.

Yeah, I don't even know.

That was pretty dumb. I'm not actually really very upset.

Yeah. Well, I'll wrap us up by saying that even in the most challenging times, I feel like we've done a really good job of finding laughter with each other.

Oh, yeah.

Of like, just finding the joy, finding some delight, finding some pleasure even in the most challenging times. We've had a lot of laughs together this year, and I'm really grateful for that.

Me too. Me too.

All right, you want to wrap us up with our review of the week? It feels kind of weird going to the review of the week, but I feel like we should do our usual.

Yeah, well, if you love this episode, if you tolerated this episode, tolerated we'd love to know. Do you like hearing us get real? Are we too real?

Not real enough.

Do you think we're about to break up? How serious do you think all of this, really?

I need you to know I have not thought about breaking up with you, Vanessa.

I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to them.

But you know that, right?

Yes, of course I know that.

Okay, good.

I very much know that. I have, like, not once.

I'm not going anywhere.

I have not once worried about that this year.

Also. It sounds so, like, makes me feel so teenagery to say breaking up.

Breaking up.

I'm not thinking about divorcing you, and I have not thought about divorcing you.

Great. Neither have I. Okay, cool. Well, anyway, we'd love it if you would leave us a five star review for this five star episode that we just did. Because, let's be honest, it helps the podcast. It helps the podcast.

We need help with the podcast.

Yeah, we need some help. We need some help. So leave us a five star review and on Apple podcast specifically, scroll to the very bottom of the Pillow Talks page, go down there, smash that five stars, and then just type us a little ditty about whatever you like about the podcast. Because if you do, we will enter you into our review of the week giveaway. Meaning if you hear your review read just like I'm about to read a review in a minute. If that's you, reach out to us on Instagram or at Info at VM Therapy and we'll send you a free masterclass. So this week's review of the week. Something for everyone. My partner and I have been married for 11 years. We have a strong relationship and a fun, passionate, satisfying sex life. So far, I've listened to only three of your episodes and your foreplay guide. The content has sparked deep, meaningful conversations, elevated our fun between the sheets, and inspired greater connection between us. I am leaving this review to say thank you and in case others out there skim over your podcast thinking they already have a great relationship and great sex. Even if that's true, Vanessa and Xander have so much to offer you. Oh, that's so sweet.

That's a really sweet review.

I couldn't say, couldn't say it any better myself.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and join us again next week when we talk about what to do if your partner's yuck is your yummy.

Yum, yum, yummy.

Gross.

That sounds like a good one. Bye.