Episode 182: “Help! I’m Not Into My Partner’s Fantasy!”

All right, I have a comparison that we will probably get less backlash. Less backlash?

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Their yuck is your yum?

For today's episode, we turned to our Instagram community and we asked for stories like, do you have any secret fantasies that you either think your partner wouldn't be into? Maybe you're too afraid to tell them, or maybe you have shared with your partner and got a pretty bad reaction. And we even have some stories of people who kind of tried the fantasy out a little bit to some not so great results. So in today's episode, we are going to be sharing with you some pretty fascinating stories. Honestly, we've got stuff about being dominated, pegging, licking buttholes. We're really covering all. All the. All the things, and we're going to be giving you our best advice for what to do if you and your partner have a fantasy that is not shared. So first, before we get into the stories, I want to share some general tips about fantasies, because we have a lot of misconceptions about fantasies. I think just even the general topic makes people really nervous. It brings up shame and embarrassment. So let's kind of break down some fantasy myths. The first is that it's totally normal to have a fantasy that you don't actually want to try out in real life. Like, that's part of what makes a fantasy. It's like something that you're playing with in your mind. I think a lot of us have examples of this, of stuff outside of the bedroom. Like, maybe you kind of secretly have a fantasy of, like, being the next Taylor Swift or opening for Taylor Swift or something like that, but you're like, yeah, I don't actually, when I think about what Taylor Swift's life actually looks like, like, I don't truly want that, but it's fun to just daydream about it sometimes. Like, oh, my God, that would be so cool. So fun. Fun. So over the top.

Yeah. I think we have these in, like, all kinds of aspects of life. We think, oh, wouldn't it be amazing to, like, be the CEO of the company that I work at?

Or wouldn't it be amazing, really nerdy fancy? I don't know if too many people are fantasizing about being CEOs.

All right, well, I don't know. Or, like, you know. Okay, well, I mean, little kids are like, oh, like, to be an astronaut or to be the president or things like that. Where it's like, well, we can totally fantasize about something. And we can also be really clear that I don't ever actually want to do that. I don't think I would want to do that.

It's also very normal and very common to have a fantasy that your partner is not into or vice versa. I think people get so freaked out about this, like, oh, we're incompatible. And yes, like, we are going to talk about some stories that where there might be a true incompatibility there, but the bottom line is, you're two different people. Of course you're gonna have two different sets of interests. We always make food comparisons, and it's such a good comparison here. Like, Xander and I don't like all the same food. Xander loves mussels and clams, and I think they're absolutely disgusting. Like, I wouldn't.

You can hear it in her voice.

Clams, hazelnuts. Ugh, like, hate even saying the word. But I don't look at that and think, like, oh, my God, what does that mean about us? Are we not actually a good match for each other? Maybe we're not compatible. It's just like, no, we accept. No, we're different people. Of course we have different likes and dislikes.

Also, I don't want to eat clams, mussels, and hazelnuts every single meal. That would be quite a combo. Hazelnut, hazelnut, steamed mussels and clams. That sounds. That sounds disgusting, actually.

So it's like, of course it's an issue of intensity, right? Like, let's say Xander and I had no foods in common that we like to eat. Like, obviously that would be an issue. Just the same way, like, if there was no commonalities in what you like to do in the bedroom. And yeah, if Xander liked to only eat hazelnuts, clams, and mussels, like, that would be an issue. Just, like, it could be in the bedroom. But the bottom line of like having some things where there's a mismatch, like that's normal. We all need to expect that. That's very, very common.

Okay. Also, I think there's this idea that if you have a fantasy, you must therefore need to try it in real life. Like, you know, we kind of already got at the idea that like, it's totally normal to have a fantasy and not necessarily want to try it. But then I think there also can be this expectation from a partner. As soon as they hear something that you're expressing some curiosity in and you're not into it, there's this immediate jump to like, oh my God, they're never going to be satisfied unless they try it. And then even beyond that there's the like, oh my God, if they are really into. Fill in the blank. If they're really into that, if I fulfill that fantasy for them, like, they're only ever going to want that or like they're never going to be satisfied with like the typical sex that we do have. And I think that these can be some problematic lines of thinking. I think we'll probably refer back to a lot of these as we're going through these examples. But yeah, in both of these that doesn't have to be the case. And almost all the time I would say it's not the case.

Yeah, we are not going to share this story, but I remember when we were going through the submissions, there were a lot of like, my partner wants to try anal, but I'm afraid that once he has a taste of anal sex that like my vagina will never be good enough for him ever again. And like, that's just not true. It's not like, yeah, once you've tried something like you could never go back to anything else.

I mean, yeah, we can bring that back to a couple different food comparisons. Like there's the. Oh, like, okay, once we go to like a Michelin starred restaurant, well, how dare we ever do that. Because then like home cooking will never be good enough. All we will ever want to eat is Michelin star food.

Yeah, you have different appetites for different things.

I don't know, I've never heard anybody having that experience. Like, oh, I went out to a nice restaurant and now I, I won't cook again. I can never go to any other restaurant because this was so good. So there's that element of it. And then I mean the other element, if you want, if you think that is kind of absurd. There's the reality of like you guys both might cook the same dish, but, like, maybe one of you cooks it better than the other. That doesn't mean that, like, the person that cooks it worse or something like, they. That, like, you could never eat that.

Yeah.

The reality is we deal with just different levels of experiences of all kinds of things that bring us pleasure, whether that's food, whether that's hobbies, whether that's going to a movie, reading a book, or having sex. Like, the reality is, is that it's not like we're just chasing this pinnacle peak experience constantly.

Also, when it comes to fantasies, a lot of times people see them in black and white. Like, either we do the fantasy or we don't do the fantasy. And that puts a lot of on, especially if it's a fantasy that you're like, I'm not really into this thing. So we really recommend not looking at it in that way because that's not the only way to play around with fantasies. There actually are a lot of in between gray areas that you can play around with. The holiday season is upon us, and if you are looking for some great gifts to give all the men in your life, we have got to tell you about Jack Black. We had a very fun package that got delivered to our house just the other day filled with all of Jack Black's holiday gift sets. So if you've never heard about Jack Black before, they offer a full line of men's products from cleansing to moisturizing beard care so that your guy has skincare that always makes him look good and feel good. So these kits are incredible. Like, so many great products bundled together. They even come with a little ribbon wrapped around them so you can like, hang them directly on the tree or just, like, wrap it up right together. I think these are are great gifts to have in your closet for that person that you, like, randomly forgot to get a gift for. And they come and bring you a gift and you're like, oh, just one second. Let me come bring this to you. The gift sets look very cool, and we are really excited to have Jack Black on board as a podcast sponsor because Zander has actually been using their products for years.

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So, like, let's use the example of having group sex. Like, having an orgy. Somebody might say, okay, I'm not into actually doing that. I don't want to physically have sex with other people. But can we break it down a little bit? Maybe one step could be, can we just talk dirty about it? That's, like, our favorite suggestion for any fantasy where there's, like, a little disagreement between the two of you. Like, just talk dirty about it.

Yeah. Like, the idea is sexy, and so let's just play around with the idea verbally.

Yeah. Like, for the person who has that fantasy, sometimes just being able to talk about it out loud, like, because our fantasies feel so secretive and taboo and forbidden, like, it can feel exhilarating just to be able to, like, say out loud, like, I'm into this, and it turns me on, and I like it. Often that can just be satisfying in and of itself. Or if we go back to this group sex example, like, are there some other little aspects of it? So maybe it's like, the two of you could look for sex parties or sex clubs in your area, and there's just this thrill of, like, ooh, there is a party that's happening. Like, we could go to it.

Oh, we could. Maybe we will, maybe we won't.

Yeah. Or it could be. Maybe one person is like, okay, I don't want to have sex with other people, but I'm fine being in the room when other people are having sex. Or maybe it's like, I'm fine with you participating, but I just hang back. Like, there's so many different ways that you can Break it down and look at it. And again, like, everybody gets to have their own interests, their own boundaries, but you don't need to look at it. Either we go whole hog or we do nothing at all. So, looking for some middle ground. Okay, so we're going to be using those principles to kind of guide us through a lot of these stories. But let's get into the stories themselves. So here's the first one. I have a fantasy about wanting to have my wife's underwear on during sex. For me, it only feels good if she wants it and even better if she actually picks out which pair I wear. My wife and I tried this once several years ago before we were engaged. She has a smaller frame than I do, so. The panties. I'm sorry, I hate the word panties. It's so difficult.

Why don't you just say. Why don't you say chonies?

The underwear. So the underwear were just a little snug on me. When she saw me in them, she accidentally let out a laugh. We made out and used our hands on each other for a few minutes. But then she said it felt too strange for me to be in them, so I took them off. I felt so ridiculous and so unsexy that I still don't want to engage in any of my fantasies, and I don't know if I ever will again. We just have mundane sex now, which is still nice for us mostly, but I feel like I can't introduce any new ideas because they're too odd for her. Xander, what are your thoughts on this fantasy conundrum?

The first question I have is, did you share with her what that experience was like for you? Because I would imagine is it's highly unlikely that she, like that. Her little laugh was like, oh, my God, that he looks so ridiculous. Like, let me shame him. Yeah, like, let's shame the shit out of him. I am sure that that is not what was going on for her. And, you know. And, yeah, something may have been going on for her. She may have been unprepared for that, or, you know, she has. She absolutely may have felt a little uncomfortable, but I would suspect, given the way that you described feeling like, you need to keep all this stuff inside. Now, I would suspect that you guys didn't really fully debrief on what happened. And I feel like now you've jumped to the conclusion that she was laughing at you, that she was trying to shame you, that she's not open to anything. And I think she needs to have an opportunity to understand, you know, what feelings came up for you, that that was a highly vulnerable thing for you, what that impact was on you and to be able to respond well, also.

I would just say, like, I totally understand that when you're doing something very vulnerable and your partner laughs, like, of course that feels really tough and scary and like, oh, my God, I feel like I'm being judged. So I have a lot of compassion for him in this situation. And laughing during sex is really normal. Like you're saying, I don't think she meant it to be. Like, I want to make you feel bad about her, about yourself. Like, sex is awkward and uncomfortable sometimes, especially when we're trying new things. And a lot of us respond to discomfort with, like, nervous laughter. So it's more about her and what she's feeling in that moment rather than you. So I think, like, the. Yeah, the fact that this guy, he, like, went so quickly to this place of shutdown of, like, you laughed, you didn't like it. So now I don't like it and I can never do it again. Like, I don't think that that's a fair or healthy response to have. So we are recording this podcast from our bed, which is currently draped in Cozy Earth bedding.

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Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like, it's like, I want you to want it naturally and in the same way.

That I did, which I don't think is fair.

Yeah. I mean, that being said, if you want to rewind the tape and be like, if. If you have a fantasy like this where it is very important to you that your partner share like, the same desire for that fantasy, then it's like, that is something to. To almost like vet in the dating process. Like, am I with someone that is legitimately sharing this thing where I can reasonably expect them to be into it? You know, I think that in this case it would be fair to be like, hey, in my fantasy, you really want this and that you are requesting I wear these specific ones and it Would be fair to say, you know, hey, would you be open to this? Like, I know that this isn't something that you are actively into yourself, knowing that I'm actively into it. You know, if I request that we fulfill this fantasy on a given night, once you receive that request, then can you follow that? You know, pretend to be excited, pick out a pair, you know, where. Then you are playing the role of someone who, once we go, okay, we're gonna do this tonight, then, you know, then the script kicks in where it's like, oh, hell, yeah, we're doing this. Like, here. I, like, went and got you these special ones, that kind of thing. But, yeah, unless you have gone into dating someone being like, this is a fantasy that we need to share, it's not reasonable to just expect her to develop the same fantasy.

Yeah. Also, you know, you already brought up the idea of, like, kind of doing this debrief of, like, telling her how it felt. But I also think it would be very valuable to have a debrief about, like, how did that go? And do we want to do this again? So if I try to put myself in her shoes, she's like, okay, I'm not really into this, but I'm going to try. For my partner, I see him. The underwear are just objectively too small, which is funny. Like, we just have to acknowledge that just is funny. It's like somebody wearing, you know, underwear that are, like, very clearly too small, too large. Like, there's just a silliness to that. So she sees that, she kind of lets out a little bit of a laugh. She keeps going. She tries it for a little bit, and then she's like, okay, you know, this is feeling, like, a little bit weird, so why don't we stop? But it very well may be for her. Like, okay, that was my first time trying it. It was, like, a little bit awkward. I wasn't quite sure, but, like, hey, let's try it again. You know, like, it. I don't. I don't see from this that she was like, oh, my God, that was horrible. I hated that it did not work. I never want to do that again. Didn't feel good to me. Like, it just seemed like you tried something new for the first time, and it was a little awkward, which is pretty much the case anybody tries anything new sexually for the first time. Like, we have a whole rule about this. We call this the first pancake rule. Like, you know, the first pancake. Whenever you make pancakes, it always turns out a little weird. Like, sex is the Same way. So we need to make space for that weirdness. And it makes me sad that he was like, okay, this fan. My fantasy didn't go perfectly the very first time we tried it. So now I'm resigning myself to a lifetime of mundane sex and I'm never gonna tell her my fantasies ever again. Like, that's just too extreme of a reaction.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, yeah, having that kind of debrief can then open the door to, hey, okay, like, would we or would we not try this one again? Or, like, would we, you know, should we talk about other types of fantasies? Because the reality is if you have other ones, Like, I think that it is, you know, if you're. If you're in a committed long term relationship with this person, like, you want to be able to share all of yourself with them. And, you know, I think that your partner would like to know if you have other fantasies and have the opportunity at least to know, to see one, they might be into some of them, or two, they might be open to experimenting with some of them. And I would bet that after this experience, especially if you're like, hey, you know, that was. That was challenging for me when I heard your laugh, I didn't know what was behind it. Also, if you talk about it, you will understand what may have been coming up for your wife, rather than assuming that she was just trying to shame you. So, yeah. And then I think that the next time you were to try something, it would probably go a little bit better because she would likely be more aware of, like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try not to laugh or something like that next time.

Okay. So bottom line, do a debrief, buy some panties that fit you, and try this one again.

Yeah, it's never, it's never too late to bring something up because, like, this is the type of thing that does eventually turn into resentment, I think. Resentment and bitterness for people. When it's like, there's this thing that happened, I never said anything about it. I'm holding it inside now. I'm actively withholding other things. And especially if those other things, those fantasies, you start thinking about them more and more, then pretty soon you're telling a story. Oh, my wife isn't into it. She doesn't want to see all of me. And it's like she's never even had a chance to combat that story going.

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All right, let's move on to our next one. My husband is into being dominated. He would gladly take it as far as I'm willing to go, but I am not into it. It's not that it crosses a boundary or anything. I just take no pleasure in it. It feels like a catch 22 because he wants me to have my way, but my way would not include most of the things he suggests. He has given me specific ideas or scenarios he'd like, and I feel like there's an expectation that I might occasionally choose to Follow one. But how can I do that when none of it sounds appealing to me? Whenever I try some things, I am not turned on and I do not feel confident. I want to be able to give him what he wants from time to time, but it also feels like it's not enjoyable for either of us. Since he's aware that I'm not into it, is there a way for me to find more enjoyment out of giving him what he wants? Or is there a happy medium?

Okay, so I think there are a lot of similar dynamics here to the first one around the. Like, the. How much pleasure does the partner who is going along with it have to take in it? And again, like we said last time, like, I think that the answer should be low. So the person who wrote this is having this expectation that they're supposed to be really, like, into it, supposed to take a lot of pleasure from it. And I would advise them, like, no, that's just not going to be the reality that you're not into this. That's totally okay. And telling the husband as well, like, we've got to put the bar for expectations down a bit that your partner's not going to be, like, super, super into it, but they're still willing to go along with it. We talked a little bit, like you mentioned, Xander scripting things out. And I do think that's really helpful when we're playing around with fantasies is, like, people go into it sometimes and they're like, let's just do the fantasy. But truly playing around with a fantasy, it involves a lot more legwork than a lot of people realize. And I think people get into their heads thinking, like, well, I just want it to, like, flow naturally and to, you know, just. Just happen the same way we think about with any kind of sex. But the reality is that fantasies require effort. They require communication and setup.

So.

So having, like, a script around it or having, like, specific things, you know, where you're role playing it, that can be really helpful. And then once you even just the word role play, you're like, oh, I'm playing. I am playing a role. So that helps us actually, in a funny way, like, get more into it, because we know we're playing a role rather than feeling this expectation on ourselves that, like, I have to authentically, as my real self, be super into doing this.

Yeah, I mean, I think that this is an area where we really need to take some notes from the kink community and, like, through, like, the Dom sub BDSM community. Because, like, if you, you know, if you kind of dive into how those communities operate, that it's not very often that it's like you have two people that are equally into the same thing, where it's like, oh, I'm super into being a dom and I'm super into being a sub. And now let's just like, like, let's go. Like, there are a lot of very specific scenes that get created. I think one of the interesting things for someone that is looking to be very submissive or to be dominated is that very often that person, the submissive person, may actually have a lot more input into what that scene is at the beginning. It's not that they want to be completely dominated 100% of the time. They want to be dominated during the scene. They may even dominate the coming up with what the scene is. Because honestly, it's like they are the ones whose boundaries need to be completely respected. Like, you know, it's not fair play when it's like someone is dominant and they're just like, I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want. Like, that is totally not okay. Like, you know, the person that is submissive needs to set clear ground rules and maybe even needs to set up the entire scene like what it is that they are looking for. So, you know, that gets into the more role playing thing. You're literally writing out a script or writing out a scene where there's like specific things you want to happen, general things that you want to have happen. And then, you know, I think that the other part is that, yeah, like, you know, a lot of the those sort of scenes, it is not necessarily about both people, both partners deriving equivalent satisfaction. I think that there's an element of like knowing one person is going to get a lot of pleasure out of this and the other person is getting pleasure out of participating in that with a partner and seeing how much pleasure or enjoyment the other person is able to get out of something. It's sort of like that enjoying, like, just like being a good person, like being there to help that person have an experience that they want to experience. So I wonder if you can get yourself into that headspace where it's like, yeah, this isn't about you, like, authentically enjoying it from a sexual pleasure perspective in the moment, but like, can you flip it around and be like, I love seeing my partner happy. I love seeing them getting a lot of pleasure. I mean, this is kind of like, you know, giving oral sex. Giving oral sex. Most people are not going to like, have an orgasm from giving oral sex. But it can be very pleasurable to see your partner getting so much pleasure. So can you think of it in that way?

My final thought on this one is I really can't get a sense from the person writing it of their willingness here. So is it like, hey, look, I'm just not really into dominating, but I'm totally fine to do it for you, and, you know, because I know it brings you pleasure, or is it getting to a point where it's like, I am not into this. I don't like doing it. It doesn't feel good. Like, I guess I just don't get a sense of. Does this person feel like they have any agency or any ability to say, like, hey, look, I gave this a really fair shot, but I'm just not into it and I don't want to do it again? So I would encourage them to spend a little time thinking about that. Like, do you want to continue doing this because you are allowed to say no?

Yeah, I mean, I think a dynamic that often comes up with someone who is not particularly comfortable, especially, like, maybe in male female relationships, if, like, the male partner is asking the woman to do something, like, she may feel uncomfortable being, like, just, no, I'm not into that. And so it's easier. It feels easier to be like, oh, well, I'm just not sure, or, like, I'm not very confident in this as a way of sort of, like, lessening the blow. But, like, in this case, you know, for us to really help you out, it's like, we need to know, like, is this a just firm no for you? In which case it is totally fine and acceptable to be like, no. You know, that is just not for me. Versus, yeah, I'm into that. I just legitimately don't feel very confident in it. In which case, you know, it's more about you playing a role that your partner helps you determine that role.

Okay, let's move on to our next one. My husband has a fantasy of me pegging him. It makes me extremely uncomfortable to even think about. I'm fine with other people doing whatever they want, but for me, it kind of makes me sick to my stomach to think about. He recently told me that he likes to be submissive and plays with toys that way. Our normal dynamic is him being dominant to me, and it has always been that for the last 12 years. I'm not sure how to compromise around it. Can I try to be more open about it? Maybe try smaller things and work our way up to that? I still cannot say that I will Ever be okay with it? My husband says that this is going to be a deal breaker whether it's now or later. He says it's a need for him. He told me that he has three options. He stays in our relationship and suppresses this, which he's not sure he will ever be okay with, or either he has someone else do it to him, male or female, and I don't know about it, or I do know about it, and open our relationship up. The main questions that come up for me are, will I ever actually come around to being okay with it? Can I. Are there things I can do to open my mind? I love my husband dearly, but I don't want to be keeping him trapped when he may be able to find someone who will give him what he needs. I guess another question that I've been trying to understand is why is this such a need for him? He says sometimes toys are enough. I know he would rather someone else do it than me because of how our relationship and sexual chemistry has been. Can sexual chemistry change? I'm assuming I know the answer to that already. What do you do when you're afraid you can't meet your partner's needs? What happens if I'm a hard no and can't do it? What if I'm not okay with him seeking anything outside our marriage? I've thought of going on a break, but I still would not be okay with him. Sleeping with other people while we aren't together or coming back together just gives me the ick. Thinking about it would change literally everything.

Well, this is a. This is a tough one.

This is a really tough one.

I mean, this is, you know, this is very different from the first one where, you know, we're not really sure how well the person can bear, like, going the rest of their life without indulging, you know, the underwear fantasy or the other fantasies that they said that they have. They didn't tell us what they were. I do appreciate in this one that, you know, we understand the full extent of it. Yeah, I hurt for both of these people where, you know, for, you know, for. For him. He knows that this is a real kind of, like, deal breaker, like, strong need that. That he needs fulfilled for him to feel fulfilled. And also that. I mean, I guess the. The person writing in is basically saying that they aren't really into it, but, like, maybe opening the door.

I don't think so.

I think it sounds like.

I think she's trying really, really hard to, like, consider the possibility of it, but ultimately, I Mean. And she's the only person who knows this, but to me, it's like she's saying it makes her sick to her stomach to think about doing it. Like, that's not. That's not something that you really get over. And our intention in making this episode is not to, like, pressure people into doing things that they don't feel comfortable doing. Like, if you're having that strong of a reaction, you shouldn't do it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I. I think it, like, would not be fair for us to not. Not say, like, the. Just ask the one question of, like, are you. Are you absolutely sure that what's coming up for you is not some internalized homophobia? Because I think this is something that really, that. That comes up so often with any kind of anal play when it's like, men receiving the anal play. We are so hardwired to have this internalized homophobia where we associate any kind of anal play and especially penetrative anal play with. With being gay. And that is something that gay men do. And that cannot be something that any other kind of man can do when in reality, gay, straight, anything, a butt is a butt. It has the same nerve endings. Men and women have the same nerve endings. In fact, men actually probably derive more satisfaction from anal play because men can also get a lot of pleasure from the prostate, which can be stimulated from inside the anus. So, yeah, I mean, if anything, men actually are set up to enjoy anal play whether they are straight or not.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Liking anal play does not say anything about your sexual orientation.

Yeah, I mean, men. Men can have organ orgasms from just prostate stimulation.

Yeah, it's just. It's just nerve endings. It's not orientation. So that is a good thing to examine. But otherwise, like. So let's say that she's like, no, I'm just. I'm really and truly just not into this at all. I do think that the way he's laid it out, like, that's. That's fair. Those are the options here. And I do think there are some rare situations with fantasies where it does boil down to it. So, I mean, he does give the option of, like, basically, I can cheat on you and you don't know about it, which that's not an option. But the basic options that they're left with are that he does not ever get to fully have this experience or that they open the relationship up. And it sounds like she's not okay as well with, like, opening the relationship up.

Well, wait, I Just want to say you said that him doing it without her knowledge, like, that is an arrangement that some people have. That is a fair arrangement. If both people are going into that willingly, I just wanted to make sure.

It'S a don't ask, don't tell policy.

Yeah, it's an arrangement that we often don't recommend unless both partners are really into that idea because there are a lot of inherent issues with it. And it's also not reasonable to expect that no one will ever find out about something. And so it can create a lot of time challenges when inherently something does slip because, you know, we aren't perfect or, like, even if you run into each other, you know, out on a date with somebody or whatever, because we can't totally control that. But. But no, I mean, that is. If both of you were into that, that is a valid option to consider. It sounds like you are not into that. And so that is a very invalid option to consider in your case.

So ultimately, I think that the decision comes down to him because it is his fantasy. So what I want to speak to is her question about, like, I've been trying to understand, like, why this is such a need for him. I know it's tempting to think of it as, like, this is just a sexual act. How could it possibly be that strong that we're, like, talking about, you know, either opening up the relationship or ending the relationship over? And we actually did a story this weekend where we talked about fantasies, and I talked about the possibility of people needing to walk away from a relationship if they're not able to, like, fulfill it. And we got a lot of backlash from people saying, like, like, I can't believe you would tell people to end a marriage over a fantasy. So, like, I get that on the surface, it sounds like ending an entire relationship over one sexual act that you can't agree on. But the bottom line is that some fantasies really and truly are so central to our expression of our sexuality, of who we are, that the idea of never doing it, it doesn't feel okay. And maybe the word fantasy is the wrong word for it because, again, fantasy, like, it conjures up, like, oh, just something fun and silly and playful, like, you know, we're role playing. You're putting on your little naughty nurse costume or something like that. So it's not necessarily that it's a fantasy. It's like, it's an act that's really central to someone's expression. So I think that's the case for him here. Like, he feels that being Pegged, being able to like. And again, it's like on the surface, like, being pegged, like, come on, dude, just get over it. Or just use a toy. But I'm guessing there's something much deeper for him here. Like, maybe it's being able to have the experience of fully receiving. Maybe it's being able to overcome his own internalized homophobia and fears of exploring his own body. Maybe it's like just wanting to feel permission to experience pleasure in every part of his body. Like, there could be much deeper things behind this. And so for him, that's why it's like, yeah, this is not just a fun little thing to play with. This is like something that I need to do in my life to feel fulfilled. Maybe this sounds. I'm sure we're gonna get backlash against this comparison, but what's just popping into my head right now, it's like, it's like the decision to have kids, right? Like. Like, for a lot of people, it's like, my life will not feel complete unless I have kids. That is so central to my identity, to what I want to experience in life, to, like, what I see for myself, that they are willing to walk away from otherwise incredible, beautiful, fulfilling relationships because that person doesn't want to have kids. And like, we've, we've normalized that and given permission to that. Like, that makes sense to us. We're like, yeah, if you want to have kids and your partner doesn't, like, of course that's painful, of course that sucks. But like, you should get to have kids if that's so, like, important to you. And like, some sexual desires fall into that same sort of category where it's not just an act, it's an experience.

All right, I have a comparison that we will probably get less backlash. Less backlash.

Are you comparing having kids to getting pegged like I am? There's. For some people, getting pegged is a really emotional, personal, important experience.

All right, so my, my comparison, let's say that you come out bisexual.

Yes.

When you are in a relationship with, let's say you're with an opposite sex partner, you've only ever been with opposite sex partners, and you realize or come to terms with slash come out as bisexual in that relationship, and you're like, I've never had a same sex sexual experience. I've never had a same sex partner. But you know, if you are in that situation and lots of people find themselves in situations like this, whether it's bisexuality or any other type of sexuality, where you are into Something else that you have not experienced yet, and you're in a committed relationship, and people have to decide, am I okay? Can I accept that I may never experience this thing and stay in this relationship that I'm in? Because I love them and it's a great relationship. No one's done anything wrong, or does this feel so central to me that I need to be able to explore it? And, you know, I think that this sounds like a similar thing. And it sounds like this person, they've been in a relationship for, what, the last 12 years, and this. This person probably thought at the beginning, you know what? I think that I can probably be okay without this. You know, I doubt that they were like, I am secretly going to need this. And 12 years in, I'm going to drop the bomb that I have to have it. Twelve years in, I'm going to use this so that I can, like, get out of. Get a back door out of this relationship, into an open relationship. Like, no. I bet you he has been suffering with this for a long time. He probably thought, I love this person so much, I'm. I'm. I think I can probably, or whatever. Even at then you probably think, I'm gonna be fine never indulging this, or, you know, I'm gonna try with toys to indulge it as much as I can. But, like, we are allowed to change our minds. Like, you're allowed to change your mind about being in a relationship, in a marriage. You know, like, we commit to marriage for life. Most people commit to marriage for life when they get married. And yet we are, you know, minds get changed, divorces happen. Like, we accept that that is something that happens. That's a risk inherent in relationships. And so, you know, unfortunately, I think that this guy has realized, unfortunately, 12 years in, that he's at a kind of breaking point with this.

So ultimately, I do think it's his decision to make. He's the only person who can feel into for himself, like, being pegged. Is it something that truly is so central to my experience, experience to my expression, to my sexuality, that I cannot imagine living a life without getting to experience this? Or is it something where he's like, this is something that I really, really wish I could explore. But I also recognize, like, you know, I'm in this incredible partnership. There are so many other aspects of it that I love and cherish. And even though this is difficult, I am consciously, willingly making the decision to say, I'm gonna stay in this relationship and not get to express something like this. Yeah, he's the only one who can decide that.

Yeah, I mean, I think at this point he has laid it out really fairly and honestly to you. Of, look, these. These are the options. The way I see it, I think he's basically telling you, this is a central part of my sexuality and I need to be able to experience it, whether it's with you or with other people and whether we are together or not together. And now I think, as hard as it is, I think now you need to be honest with him about which of those options you are and aren't okay with. And so if you are very clearly not okay with opening the relationship, whether known or unknown, like, he needs to be able to have that information because then the only remaining two options are he suppresses it, which he said he doesn't really want to do, but he did lay it out there as, you know, something that I could try to do. He's presumably been doing that for many years. Or that he needs to, you know, he needs to walk away. It's only fair to him, you know, that you meet his vulnerability with your vulnerability and share, you know, unfortunately, as hard as it is, as much as I love you, I'm not open to two of these options. And so, unfortunately, I think that leaves two really bad options for us. And ultimately, this is going to be on you to make the final decision because you are saying that this is a central part of your sexuality that, you know, I wasn't. Probably wasn't aware of at the beginning of our relationship. All right, on that note, let's move on. My husband has a fantasy of hooking up, sex, blowjobs, anal with other guys. I've tried being open about it and trying to get into it, but it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable in the sense of insecure. Like, does he actually want to be with me, a woman, long term, or is this just a fantasy? He always insists it's just a fantasy, but then after we are done having sex, he gets all embarrassed and awkward and says he regrets saying those things. I try to be open and supportive and say it's okay if it's your fantasy. And I try not to be judgmental. We've compromised on not bringing up that particular fantasy every time we have sex. And because for a while it was every time, and it really, completely turned me off. Okay, so how do I know it's truly a fantasy? I weirdly fear down the road that he's going to want to act on it. He doesn't really have any other fantasy. So it's hard to talk about. Any other fantasies? Other questions? Does anyone else have this fantasy of having sex with someone of the same sex? Sometimes his fantasy is just straight up sucking a dick, and other times his fantasy is sucking a dick while I'm involved. When he says I'm involved with it, I don't feel as uncomfortable with it. But when it's just straight up having sex with another guy, it makes me uncomfortable and anxious.

Straight up sucking a dick. That phrase just makes me giggle for some reason. Okay, so let's start with this question of does anyone else have a fantasy of having sex with someone of the same sex? Abso freaking lutely, yeah, all the time. This is one of the most common fantasies, and it's a perfect example of. For a lot of people. Not for all of them, but for a lot of people, this is one of those fantasies that is just fun to play with as a fantasy, but people wouldn't want to actually act on in real life. This comes up with women all the time.

Oh, yeah. Way more. Way more than men. I mean, this gets at the internalized homophobia.

The internalized homophobia. That's where I was going next. But, like, yeah, so many women reach out to us and they're like, I am straight. Like, I absolutely am straight. I have no interest.

I feel it in my bones, especially.

Being with another woman. But, like, I love to fantasize about it. I love to read erotica about it. I love to watch porn. That's lesbian porn. It's just normal. It's totally normal. The problem is all of the homophobia that we have. Like, it makes it so much harder for men to have this fantasy than for women. When women have same sex fantasies about being with other women, most people think of that as really hot.

But, I mean, women even, like, will joke with other women about, like, hooking up. I think there's like, even it's, like, acceptable to have, like, almost like, sexual chemistry between women where it's never gonna happen. It's like, you just don't see men, like, doing that.

Oh, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually making me think of on this season of Real Housewives of New York. There's one woman, Bryn, who's straight, and she's always flirting with this lesbian woman, Jenna, and, like, flirting, you know, talking about how, oh, they're gonna hook up and she's gonna turn lesbian. All this stuff. So, like, yes, that is something that women will occasionally joke about with each other. But, yeah, no men, like, I could not imagine a man, like a straight man joking with another straight man about how like, oh, we're gonna hook up.

Yeah. No, wait.

But I don't know, kind of sometimes guys do a little bit, like, talking about having man crushes and stuff like that.

Yeah, but when's the last time you heard a guy be like, oh, watch out, I'm gonna suck your dick?

Okay, fine. Fair enough. Anyways, all that to say it's like, we don't give men the same societal permission to just have same sex fantasies the way that we give women societal permission to have that. So, yes, it's very normal to have this fantasy. That being said, I could also absolutely see a scenario where, again, because of homophobia, your husband might actually be bisexual, but he doesn't want to admit it because he's afraid and, like, thinks that that's a bad thing. And, like, people would judge him for that. You would judge him for that. So there's, like, a fine line to walk here where I don't want to put, like, more paranoia in your brain of, like, yeah, he's. He's secretly gay, he's dreaming about sucking, straight up sucking a dick. But at the same time, I also, like, I don't know, I feel for this man and, like, if he is genuinely interested, but, like, trying to pretend it's. It's just a fantasy. It's just a fantasy because, like, I mean, he's talking about this every single time they have sex. Like, straight up sucking a dick. It does veer a little into the, like, maybe this is more than a fantasy territory for me.

Little sus category. Yeah, but again, like, straight up sucking.

But in the best possible, like, he's allowed to, like, if he actually is kind of curious about being with men, that's awesome. And I want him to, like, celebrate that and to feel like that's okay. If it was me and every time we had sex, you were talking about sucking dick, I would pull you aside outside of the bedroom at a certain point and I would say, like, I love you so much and I know that you like talking dirty about sucking dick, and I just want you to know, like, if that's actually something. If that's just a fantasy, that's totally cool. If it's something that you actually kind of are a little bit curious about in real life, that is also totally cool. I love you and I want you to feel like you can be your full and authentic self with me. So I would have one conversation I would not pester, though. So let's Say you were like, no, no, no. Like, it just is a fantasy. I just get turned on talking about sucking dick while I'm railing you. Then I would let it go. I wouldn't be, like, interrogating every time. Are you sure you're not gay? Are you sure you're not secretly gay? Like, we don't want to go to that. That extreme, but I would ask once.

Yeah, I mean, serious. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, you don't want to be like, hey, are you secretly gay? Or, hey, are you secretly bi? You're not trying to, like, out that. You're just trying to say, hey, if this is something like, you're legit into, like, we can talk about that. Like, I'm. I'm here. Like, you want to leave the door open but not try to be like, hey, I think that you are gay, and we need to talk about that. What was coming up for me with this one is the. A little bit of a flag to me was that, like, after we're done having sex, he gets all embarrassed and awkward and says he regrets those things. I'm interested. So, on the one hand, that right there, that is textbook, like, internalized homophobia. Where what happens is we have that internalized homophobia. We have our walls up. Once we start getting sexual and getting excited, those sort of walls and boundaries start coming down. And all of a sudden it's like, ooh, our inhibitions come down as we're having sex. So then all of a sudden, those things come out, and then as soon as we come get that classic post nut clarity, and all of a sudden, boom, the walls come up, the shame comes back. So that is sort of textbook internalized homophobia and shame cycle. On the other hand, there is also a possibility that that is part of the fantasy for him. Some people have, like, get off on shame, and there's sort of a. There. The shame is part of the fantasy possible, but he hasn't announced that to you, so it's like, I don't know. You know, there's. There's a possibility that he's still kind of figuring out, like, what this whole thing is for him. And it's possible that for him, like, that actually he is almost looking for you to shame him a little bit. Like, that would sort of complete the fantasy. But ultimately, I think it is unfair to you that this is a. This is a confusing experience for you. You don't know what it is that he truly wants. Like, is this. You know, is. Is him being like, oh, my God, I can't believe I said that. Is that part of the game for him or is that truly him being really ashamed? Regardless, I feel like there's a fair request to be made for you of, like, hey, this is, like, really coming up a lot. And I'm feeling, like, ill equipped to. To know how to show up as a good partner. This feels like something that would be really beneficial for you to explore an individual therapy to either explore the. The internalized homophobia that's coming up for you, because it's not. It's not fair for you after every single time you have sex, to have to, like, reassure him, like, oh, my God, it's okay. Like, you don't need to be ashamed. Like, that's not fair to you to be put into that role every time. And it's also, like, not fair to you to, like, have to read between the lines of, like, oh, how am I supposed to react or respond? Like, is the shame part of the fantasy? Or is it, like, not part of the fantasy? And he's really, truly ashamed. Like, I think he's got to figure that part out on his own. But he might need some encouragement from you to understand that, like, yeah, he's putting you in an unfair situation. You want to be there and be a good partner to him, but you've reached a point where you don't know how to be the right. Like a good partner.

Yeah. All right, well, that is all the scenarios we have time for today. We had so many, but, God, we always end up, like, going deep on these.

Well, there's a lot.

I mean, there's a lot to unpack for sure.

It's a big gray area. It would be easy. I mean, this isn't tiebreakers, babe.

I know. Well, let us know if you like this content. We have pretty much an entire other episode already in front of us right now, so we can make that very easily if you are into that. Come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander and let us know if you liked this episode. Definitely make sure you're following us there if you're not already. Because we do all sorts of fun polls. We do a lot of prep for these episodes, asking lots of. Of questions. So we'd love to have you in our community over there.

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Oh, thank you for that delightful, delightful review. Oh, we know this person. We do, yeah.

Oh, we do. We do. Thank you. Thank you to this person. And. And yeah, I'm honestly, I'm really grateful I chose to do this work. I never thought that I was going to be doing this work until, honestly, fairly recently. And it has changed the trajectory of my life and my partnership as well. So thank you.

Oh, thank you. All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about what to do if you want more emotional intimacy in your relationship.