Episode 183: How To Get More Emotional Intimacy From Your Partner

If you're feeling like you want more emotional intimacy, it's not something that you're asking your partner to deliver to you. It's like we got to work together as a team so that we are both feeling closer to each other. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are talking all about intimacy. Actually, we're doing something special that I'm not sure we've ever done before. We're making sister episodes, like two back to back episodes about some deeply entwined topics.

Siblings. Eh?

Siblings. Sister episodes. We think of intimacy as two sides to the same coin. I'm doing all my metaphors today.

Twin flames.

Twin flames. The coin. We think of it as emotional intimacy and physical intimacy.

Would you say it's two faced? What? No, I wouldn't say that because I think two faced has a negative connotation.

Yeah. Two sides. Two sides of the same face.

Two sides of the same face, but not two faced.

So today we are going to talk all about emotional intimacy, and next week we're going to talk about physical intimacy.

Because you can't have one without the other.

We don't think you can. We also think that there are two kinds of people in the world. There are people who want to have emotional intimacy before they have physical intimacy, and there are people who want to have physical intimacy as a means of creating emotional intimacy. So, like, I want to feel connected before we have sex versus. But the way that I feel connected is by having sex. And of course, most relationships are usually made of one of each type. So you have that classic standoff between partners.

Got to keep it interesting.

Yeah, like, well, but I want the emotional intimacy first. Well, I want the sex first.

Life would be way too boring if we all just wanted the exact same thing at the same time.

I guess that's.

Maybe it would be convenient, but it would be pretty boring.

So we made these two episodes that we're going to have back to back. Today we're talking all about what to do if you want more emotional intimacy in your relationship. And next week will be what to do if you want more physical intimacy. So we highly recommend listening to both. Both are going to be equally important, but today we're going to get started with emotional intimacy. We're going to talk about what it actually is, how to know if you need more of it, how to to your partner about creating more emotional intimacy and even what to do if your partner doesn't understand. It's like, wait, emotional intimacy? What do you mean? I don't get it.

And if you're already excited about the prospect of these two sister sibling episodes, we would love it if you would give us a five star rating and short little review. Those reviews go such a long way in helping get our podcast in front of more people. Super easy to leave a review and a rating on Apple Podcasts. Just click to go to the main Pillow Talks podcast page, scroll all the way down to the bottom, you'll see the review and rating section. Just smash those five stars and leave us a couple sentences on what you love about this podcast. In fact, if you leave a review, we'll enter you every week into our Review of the Week giveaway. That's just how important reviews are to us and how much we want to thank you for leaving us a review. And that means if you hear your review, read, reach out to us on Instagram or email us@infomtherapy.com and we'll give you a free masterclass. So, without any further ado, Relationships 101 a lifesaver for College Love I'm navigating my first serious relationship while juggling college life. It felt like a roller coaster and I was desperately seeking guidance. Enter Pillow Talks. This podcast quickly became my go to resource for all things relationships, saving me from countless rookie mistakes. Each episode tackles real world issues with genuine empathy and expert advice. Vanessa and Xander break down complex topics into relatable, easy to digest conversations. They blend personal anecdotes with professional insights, making each episode both informative and comforting. If you're in your early 20s and new to the serious relationship scene, this podcast is a treasure trove of wisdom. It's like having a wise friend who's been through it all, guiding you through the highs and lows of all things love, sex and relationships. Highly recommend.

Oh, that's such a sweet review.

Yeah, I feel like, I mean, Relationships 101 honestly is like a class that we need to take like in high school. And of course, you know, nobody ever offers that. I doubt that will ever be something that is actually offered. But like, I love to think of what we do as really providing that kind of relationship 101 type of experience. The thing that most people don't think they need until they realize, oh, wait, I am missing a lot of key information.

Well, I think these episodes really fit in with that theme too. Like, stuff that we should have learned at some point, but we never really do. And then it feels awkward and uncomfortable and we don't know what's going on. So let's keep rolling and talking about emotional intimacy.

Yeah. So what the heck even is emotional intimacy? And why is it so important? I mean, the first thing that got me thinking of what you were saying of, like, you know, how this ties in with that Relationships 101. That just brought this, like, flashback of, you know, me going through my later teenage years and starting to become sexually active. And, like, you don't really think about the emotional intimacy part of sex so much. It's kind of like, at least for me, it was just like, I want to be able to experience this. Like, you know, I want to, like, round the bases. I don't want to be, like, behind my friends or, you know, all that. All that kind of stuff you're so focused on, like, getting to this point of being able to have sex. For me, I wasn't really ever thinking about, like, what is it that I am looking for from an emotional intimacy perspective. And I think, like, early on in most of our sexual careers, you know, or at least those of us that don't wait to be in a student.

I love how you always say sexual career. Like, what do you mean, career?

Well, I don't know. I guess I think.

Are you getting promotions?

It's an amateur career. I'm an amateur.

What degree did you get in college to prepare you for this career?

Definitely nothing I took. You know what? That's funny. I don't really even think about saying that because I'm thinking of, like, sexual debut, which is another term that we say.

Yeah. Instead of losing your virginity, making your sexual debut.

Yeah. And I think. I don't know, something about being, like, since I was sexually active just sounds very formal.

Sexual career.

So, you know, one. Yeah. So I. I've completely lost my train of thought, but. Okay. No, no. What I was saying is for those of us who don't wait for marriage or don't wait for a serious relationship, I think that there's very much, you know, a rushing to the physical intimacy because it's just sort of. It's something that we want. And then later on, you start to realize the Importance of that emotional intimacy. I. I, you know, know what that was like for me.

I mean, I think you're just describing boys and men. I would not describe my sexual career in the same way.

All right?

I was looking for that emotional intimacy right out the gate. That was more important to me.

Okay, well, yeah. And different experiences, which is kind of.

Funny because we are the reverse now.

Yeah, that. That is very funny. I mean, that's kind of what I was getting at was that it was.

Like, that is very funny with zero laugh.

No, that's interesting. Okay, that is really interesting. That's what I was thinking. That that's super interesting because, yeah, for me, it really did switch. I mean, I think that, you know, my experience was that having a number of, you know, not serious sexual experiences, I came away from those not feeling super great about myself, not, like, horrible about myself, but just, like, you know, realizing, oh, something is missing here. You know, like, this is. It feels really exciting in the lead up to it and doing it. And then afterwards, there's this emotional disconnect because it's like, ooh, that is something that actually felt really intimate. But I don't feel very intimate with this person. And so, you know, then contrasting that with getting into a serious relationship and having sex, and it's like, oh, it's this whole. There's this whole different layer to it. Like, okay, this is the missing piece. And I think for me, eventually I started to realize, oh, yeah, like, I really need that emotional intimacy in order to be, like, all in with the sex.

Okay, so let's back it up and talk about, like, what is emotional intimacy to begin with? Because I think a lot of us feel the desire for more intimacy. Like, I think if you went up to your average person and said, hey, do you want more intimacy in your relationship? 99 people would, out of 100 would say, yes, I do. But then if you ask them, like, what does that mean to you? I think most people would really struggle to describe it. They're like, intimacy is one of those things that you know it when you feel it, but. And, you know when you're not feeling it. But it's also hard to nail down the specifics of it.

Yeah. If people could, then barely anyone would be like, oh, yeah, I want more of that. They'd just be, like, doing the thing that they know would get it. Mm.

So here's our attempt at defining emotional intimacy. I think of it as the feeling of being truly seen, understood and accepted and feeling the ability to be authentic and vulnerable. Without fear of judgment, just this closeness that you feel with your partner. What do you think of it as?

Yeah, I mean, I agree with this 100%. And in fact, hearing you read those things really kind of like, reminded me perhaps why I became more of an emotional intimacy first kind of person fairly quickly. Because, you know, I'm sure everybody struggles with this. But I think, like, you know, if I reflect on my childhood and teenage years, I think some of my core struggles were, like, really wanting to be, like, seen and accepted socially and like, and in. And having a lot of fear of judgment, you know, and. And then. And then therefore feeling like, well, it's not safe to be particularly vulnerable if you are trying to, you know, be accepted by people or you don't want to be judged by people because you think that's going to help you be more accepted by people. And so I think that once I found, you know, emotional intimacy in a serious relationship, it was like this pressure release, like, oh, okay, I finally have an outlet to be able to feel totally safe and seen and understood in a way that I, that I hadn't before. And so, yeah, I think that I'm not surprised when I hear you say that about, like, oh, yeah. No wonder I, like, flip flopped into, you know, into really wanting to feel safe emotionally before I have sex.

Yeah. I think of emotional intimacy as, I don't have to play any roles with you. I don't have to wear any masks around you. I can just be my full self. And even though there are parts of me that might annoy you or characteristics that maybe you wish were a little bit different, there's still this, like, underlying level of acceptance. Like, I see you and they love you exactly as you are.

Yeah.

But let's make this a little bit more practical and talk about, like, what are, like, daily ways that you can see emotional intimacy. So I think deep, meaningful conversations is one where it feels like, you know, you're talking about things that really matter, not just, oh, what's the schedule today? And what's the weather going to be like? And don't forget to do this.

But then again, I do want to say with that because I think a lot of people, a lot of men especially, hear the word deep conversations and are immediately jumped literally into the deep end or to the extreme end. And it's like, oh, you want me to talk about, like, you know, what my deepest, darkest fear is? And I think, you know, we can talk a little bit more about this. But, like, deep and meaningful conversations aren't necessarily like, you know, are you, are you scared of death or are you, you know, I'm trying to think of like, you know, your deepest, darkest trauma. It's just like stuff that is not superficial, stuff that. How are you feeling about X, Y or Z that happened today?

Well, yeah, on the other end of it, I also think there's something about being able to have comfortable silences together, like feeling like you don't have to jump to fill the space or say something just to say something. It's like we can also just be quiet together and it still feels like we're connected. For me, another big piece of it is like being able to show a full range of emotions. So, you know, all, all different, you know, positive and negative emotions that come up. But I do think in particular it's like being able to talk about fears and anxieties without feeling like there's going to be judgment.

Yeah, I mean, I think that these, you know, these two, the sort of like being able to show a full range of emotion and sharing fears without judgment, those are two things I think that are key to having some of those deep and meaningful conversations. It's like, it's not about like talking about some horrible thing that happened to you. It's about being able to have a conversation about any kind of topic where you are able to show and express a range of emotion or express. Oh God. That got me thinking about this thing that I'm scared of or anxious about or this thing that happened to me where. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's not like completely baring your soul constantly, but like any sort of conversation that allows you to kind of traverse in the positive and sort of negative emotional spectrum. Like, I feel like negative isn't really the right way. I'm not saying like emotions are negative, but like, you know, kind of stuff that's in the more like happy, happy, positive realm of emotions, but also in the more challenging realm.

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Okay, another one that is doesn't, you know, for. This is a great one for people that are like, oh God. Deep, meaningful conversations. This is, this is above my pay grade. Here's another one.

It's just like back to the career. Your salary, your sexual salary.

Well, yeah. What is my sexual salary?

I don't know how many sexies for a long time.

Yeah, I know.

I've been tempted to pay you.

Now I think I got to go pro. Who's going to sponsor me? We have podcast sponsors, but we don't have any sexuality sponsors, Xander. Sexuality sponsors. Who's. Who's going to jump in? Yeah, come on, put me on your team. Put me on your sex team.

This is getting really weird.

This is getting weird.

Go back to the content.

All right, so here's another one. Especially for those of you that want to kind of wade into the deep end with the deep conversations, wanting to share news with your partner first. I think this is a big one where it's just like, hey, when something important happens, when something exciting happens, like sharing that with your partner before you share it with anybody else. And the reason for this is because you are probably most likely to have the most authentic, like, emotional reaction when you share interesting, exciting, sad, scary news with, with, you know, the first person. Like if you've already shared, you know, some exciting thing with five other people before you tell your partner, they're probably going to get a kind of watered down reaction from you, right? And so like, this is a great way to ensure that you are actually like, you know, sharing something in a meaningful way where they're getting like your full emotional range, noticing your partner's mood changes. That is another kind of daily example of emotional intimacy. So, you know, I think it's not just noticing and keeping it to yourself, but like noticing, noticing and commenting and checking in. Yeah, checking in. Not like, oh, God, you sound angry or like, oh, sounds like you're having a bad day. But, like, hey, I noticed X, Y, and Z. Like, you know, what. What's coming up for you? What's going on? Like, can we, you know, I'm here for you. So, you know, stuff like that. Like, checking in on your partner. Not like, oh, God, you're angry again.

This sounds like a scary example. You're angry again.

Oh, you're grumpy. And then finally, inside jokes and, you know, like, shared meanings for things. I think that that can be a really big one because it's like, you know, we all. We all have the, you know, the memories of, like, you know, early on in friendships, like, having inside jokes and that feeling like, oh, my God, like, we have a, you know, we have a kind of, like, secret together or, like, I feel part of. And I think having that within your relationship is a way to really just, like, feel much closer and also to be able to like, laugh about things on a daily basis and, you know, kind of, like, have more meaning or, you know, kind of symbology in your relationship.

Okay, so if you're listening to this episode, it's probably because, like, the title, you're wanting more emotional intimacy in your relationship. But we also wanted to share some signs that you might need more emotional intimacy. For me, the biggest one that comes up is you feel lonely even when you're together.

Ooh.

And I think that's one of the saddest things that happens in a relationship. Like, you're choosing to spend your life with somebody, but you are feeling invisible to each other. I mean, there's nothing worse than feeling lonely when you're in a relationship.

Yeah. I mean, because it is literally the antithesis to being in a relationship. Like, we get into relationships so that we have companionship, so that we don't feel lonely. And that's not to say that you can never feel lonely in a. In a healthy relationship. Yeah. I think that it is normal and healthy and okay to sometimes have feelings of loneliness. But if you are feeling, you know, regularly lonely in your relationship, that is definitely a sign that you either need to work on emotional intimacy or if you are not able to or your partner is not willing to, that, like, this isn't something that's going to change. And you deserve to be able to be with someone where you feel seen and part of and not not lonely constantly.

Similarly, like, you feel like you're sharing the same space, but you're not actually there with each other.

This kind of reminds me of the, like, roommates rather than romantic partners thing, where it's. Yeah, like, when you have. When you've lived with a roommate for a while, like, you know, you can absolutely share the space and maybe even be sitting on the same couch together, but, like, you know, it can kind of feel like you are also on your own. It's like, oh, yeah, this is a person. We both live here, we both do things here. And, you know, we're not like, constantly, like, you know, doing the same thing together.

You feel like your partner doesn't really get. You feel like, unseen by your partner. They don't really, like, know who you are or understand, like, how you operate.

And I mean, that's a norm. That's a normal thing very early on in a relationship. But, yeah, if you are, you know, you've been together for years, you're married, you know, these are not great signs. You know, this is a sign that either, you know, you kind of, like, didn't lay the groundwork from an early stage or that you guys have both been changing and you haven't really been, you know, paying attention to the changes that you're going through. You haven't really put the effort in to get to know who the people are that you are becoming.

And also, conversations stay surface level. We've talked a lot already about conversations, but yeah, if you just feel like, you know, you're talking about random ass crap, yeah, I need a little more emotional intimacy.

Oh, definitely. And, oh, yeah, also, if you find yourself keeping thoughts and feelings to yourself, that's definitely a sign that you don't feel comfortable sharing them with a partner. So you don't have that vulnerability, you know, that space for vulnerability. Another big sign, which I know is a gut punch to a lot of people. You spend more time on your phones than with each other. I think this is. This is a increasingly common one. And this, I'm not going to say, hey, if this is going on in your relationship right now, like, you're doomed. I do think, though, this is something to be aware of. This is what may be the first place to look if you are struggling in this area. Because behavior with our phones is a quasi, like, addictive type of behavior. And it's like, so easy once we get into that pattern where it's like, okay, we're both doing this thing, we both feel comfortable with it. It's acceptable that we're doing it. And I'm learning to feel comfort in my phone rather than getting comfort from my partner. So I think this is a great first step of, like, okay, if this is happening, is probably time to break that habit and just the, just the practice of like, hey, let's put the phone downs and do something together is probably going to be like a hugely meaningful first step. Really move the needle a lot. And then finally, if you find yourself regularly feeling disconnected during sex, I think that that is a really big one because yeah, with the proper amount of emotional intimacy, you know you are going to sex is going to be something that really turbocharges that emotional intimacy. If you're finding that not only do you not feel connected, you actually feel disconnected when you're doing it, that you know there, there's definitely very much something missing there.

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Yeah, I mean, and also, at least initially, this is something where you can go and is not saying I need X from you. It's hey, why don't we do more of X, Y, Z, abc, whatever. Like, you know, I do think that, yeah, a lot of people are thinking that the request is like, I need you to do this. But this is a We thing. Yeah. I mean, emotional intimacy is a we problem.

That's a separate tip for sure. Like, it's not something, if you're feeling like you want more emotional intimacy, it's not something that you're asking your partner to deliver to you. It's like, we gotta work together as this team so that we are both feeling closer to each other.

Yeah. I mean, I think the only scenario where it eventually turns into more of a one sided request is like, if this is something that you've been trying to work on for a long time, you've had a number of conversations, you've made plans together about, here's how we are going to, you know, kind of conquer this challenge together. And it is, you know, you're holding up your end of the bargain and your partner is increasingly not. And eventually, you know, but this is getting into almost more like ultimatum territory where it's like, I need this from you or else, like, I can't do this.

So going back to, you know, the original piece of advice about, like, approaching it in a fun and playful way, one of my general pieces of advice for anytime you're making a request of your partner is to lead with the kind of energy that you want your partner to have. So if you go in there making it seem like happy and exciting and you're, you know, looking forward to it, like, your partner's going to pick up on that energy versus you leading with like, hey, so we need to talk about something. It's like, really been bothering me for a long time. Like, that's just gonna lead to a challenging conversation.

Yeah. I mean, I would almost think of it kind of like the same energy that you might come to your partner with if you want to ask them on a date or something. When, when you want to go on a date, you're not like, we need to go to dinner so that we can talk.

Yeah.

Like that. That sounds real bad. Right? Like, if you want to go on a date, like, hey, this awesome new restaurant opened up. Like, let's go. I made a reservation this weekend. Let's do it. It's going to be really fun. Right. And like, this is a fun, exciting opportunity for you to get to do something that you know is gonna make you feel closer.

Yeah. You can also use this podcast to open up a conversation. So if you're feeling nervous about this, like, you can literally say to your partner, hey, I was listening to this week's episode of Pillow Talks. They were talking about emotional intimacy. And you know what? It got me thinking There were some great ideas, so that way, you don't have to go in again saying something like, hey, we need to talk, and, you know, there's this thing that you're not doing for me. Like, use this to open the conversation. Even listen to this episod episode together with them. Our next tip is to make specific requests. So just saying to your partner, like, I want us to be closer or I want us to have more emotional.

Intimacy, that's a recipe for disaster.

That is so hard to follow through on because, like, what does that mean? What does that mean to you? And the bottom line is, emotional intimacy is totally different in different relationships. Like, something that could feel very intimate to you could feel not at all intimate to another couple. And so it just. It's not setting your partner up for success to just say, I want to be closer. In fact, it's probably likely to make them panic, get anxious, bury their head in the sand, not want to try anything at all. Like, it's just. It's not a request. So instead, you have to think about what are small and practical ways that the two of you can start working towards emotional intimacy. So a lot of the things that we were listing earlier are.

Vanessa. Okay, you didn't. You guys didn't hear this. I didn't do anything. You didn't hear this, but Vanessa, we just had two takes, twice in a row where Vanessa kept saying, we were listening earlier instead of listing. And then she got. She really got. She really got in her head.

I had my head, and then you were looking at me, and I thought, I did it right. Then I was like, did I say listening again?

You absolutely did it right. You did it great.

We are listing things that are signs of emotional intimacy, and then some of them are big things, right? Like this feeling of being truly seen and understood by each other. Like, that's not a request you can make of your partner. Like, I would like you to see me more. I would like you to understand who I am on a core level.

Right? Yeah. I mean, if I heard that, I would be like, ooh, this. I would. I mean, honestly, that would feel like a big, like, red flag. Like, ooh, like what? One, that doesn't mean a lot to me. And two, if you are saying that there's probably a fundamental. There's fundamentally something wrong or missing in our relationship, and so I would be like, oh, wait, so how serious? This sounds really serious, but also not serious enough that you're coming to me with any specifics. So I'm confused.

Yeah. So so it's going to require you to spend a little bit of time thinking, like, what are some small and practical requests that I can make of my partner that will eventually, over time, with repetition, lead to more emotional intimacy? So, for example, it could be something like, I'd like for us to have one phone free dinner per week or every dinner phone free. Or I'd love us to go on a nightly walk around the block, like something practical. And again, it's like, it's not that one walk around the block. All of a sudden there's so much emotional intimacy, but it's that you're creating steps to give to your partner. Steps that are eventually going to lead to feeling closer to each other. Another tip is to ask your partner if they're aware of what makes them feel close to you. So again, like, this is not you going into your partner and saying, here are all the things that you need to change and fix to make me feel better. It's letting your partner know, like, you want to feel closer to them and you want to do whatever they need for you, for you to. My brain is short circuiting. Like, you want to do things for them that will make them feel close to you. Does that make sense?

Yes. Did I get that? Yeah, yeah, you did. You did. It was a tongue twister. I think that is a. I think that's a really big one. You know, when you kind of turn it back around of like, hey, yeah, what are the things that. That I could do with you that are going to make you feel closer to me or, you know, that are going to open you up to be more vulnerable. And I think that we have to be open to the possibility that this brings up some things that, you know, might kind of turn the mirror back around on us. Because I do think that what can very often happen in long term relationships is like, yeah, let's say like one partner has a hobby or something that their partner's not really into. And I'm really clear. I am not. I'm not talking about our relationship. You do a really great job of this when it comes to surfing. But, like, I'll use surfing as an example. I love to surf. Obviously, I talk about this all the time. Vanessa really could care less about surfing other than the fact that she has a husband who really loves it. Vanessa doesn't go out of her way to know anything about surfing or follow professional surfing or anything like that because just it's not something that she does. It's not important to her. So say that like early on in our relationship, you know, I'd come back from surfing and be like, you know, trying to tell her about how it was or something that I was struggling with. And you know, if she had been like, oh, you know, like, I just, like, I don't, I don't. This doesn't really mean anything to me. Or like, I don't. Why don't you go like, talk to your surf buddy about this or something like this? Like, because I think this happens a lot in relationships or someone has a hobby or something and, you know, maybe they feel a little self conscious about their hobby as well. And you know, they try being vulnerable a couple of times and sharing more about that with their partner or seeing if their partner might want to get a little bit involved in it and their partner shuts them down. I think there's a super common thing that happens and I think also this is more of a like men with hobbies thing. It's like more often the guy has a hobby and this feels super vulnerable to him. That is kind of letting his partner into this thing that he really loves. He kind of feels shut down. And so he might feel like, oh, well, the way that I'm trying to be vulnerable with you is not being reciprocated. And so I think that this is great to be aware of. Yeah, this might mean reexamining your own history in your relationship and being like, huh, Are there any ways that I have kind of inadvertently shut down opportunities for vulnerability or, you know, ways that I could be more open to seeing my partner fully, even if the thing is I'm not interested in it or I'm not really into it because that can just go such a long way.

Okay, so let's talk about what to do. If you've tried talking to your partner about emotional intimacy and they are just not understanding it. So some common responses that we hear are, I don't know how to do that. So we hear this most commonly from men who are in relationships with women. So this does go back to what I was saying before about why it's important to give your partner specifics. Because again, like, if you're just going to them and saying, hey, I want you to be more intimate with me, like, of course they're going to say, I don't know how to do that.

Yeah, the first thing I would say is, if you hear that from your partner, get really honest with yourself. Of was the request that I made specific enough because it's very likely that there, you know, it was broad enough or general enough that, you know, it's more along the lines of, like, I want us to feel closer. But if, you know, I feel like it is possible that you give a really specific request, the first. The top one that comes to mind for me is, you know, if you're talking about, like, I'd like to have more deep and meaningful conversations because we told you that was, you know, one. One way to really have a lot more emotional intimacy. So if you go to your partner and say, I want to have more deep and meaningful conversations, they might, you know, they might reasonably say, oh, I don't really know how to do that. I'm not very comfortable with that. Though I do think you could be even more specific about that. You don't even need to suggest that. You could suggest doing an activity that will maybe facilitate more conversations. And you take it upon yourself to try to, like, have some good conversational topics that might draw out some more meaningful conversations.

I also think this could be the opportunity to talk about each of your histories with emotional intimacy. So, like, if you were raised in a family that didn't have very much emotional intimacy, you didn't talk about your feelings for each other. You didn't say, I love you, you didn't talk about deeper feeling.

Yeah, like, there's many people, a lot.

Of people, like, of course you're not going to know how to do that. And there can be a lot of shame and embarrassment that comes up around this. Like, I think a lot of us know that we should be able to have emotional intimacy, but it feels embarrassing to not know how to. So taking a step back and talking about it in a broader sense, like, what does emotional intimacy mean to you, and what did you learn about it growing up? Did you feel like you got emotional intimacy from your parents? Did you have it in your early relationships and your friendships? I mean, that's an especially interesting question to ask of men because men really struggle with having emotional intimacy in friendships. But, yeah, just like having that conversation.

So.

And. And that's the funny thing about having that conversation is that's building emotional intimacy, getting to know each other better, getting to understand your history, the challenges that come up for you. So it's a little secret tip within the tip. Okay? Another common response that we hear, again, usually from men, is, I'm just not good at talking about feelings. Xander, do you have any thoughts, insights into the male mind? Why would a man say he's not good at talking about feelings?

Well, from a very early age, men have been told and shown that they should not be expressing their feelings or that they should be actively suppressing their feelings. I feel like I've told this story a million times, but, I mean, I feel like most men have at least one story like this early on in their memory. You know, like, I was playing baseball at like 4 years old, got tagged out, slid, sliced my knee open pretty good. Like, I ended up going, I didn't need stitches, but I needed, like a big bandage for a long time and, you know, blood pouring out of my knee and I'm crying and, you know, I just distinctly remember, I still remember this kid's name even. That's how much it seared in my memory standing over me. He's my age, by the way. Same, same, same age, same class. And he's like, big boys don't cry. And, you know, it's like, you know, that shit gets in so. So deep so early on, so you learn, oh, I'm not supposed to cry. I'm not supposed to express emotion. Combine that with, you know, very often, you know, you just talked about, like, many families don't show emotional. Very much emotional intimacy, you know, so, yeah, plenty of men will be from families like that. But also most men, you know, whether they have a family that shows a lot of emotional intimacy or not, most, you know, men in maybe his relationship with his father likely has less emotional intimacy because it's two men who have both been told by society that they shouldn't display much emotion. So it's sort of like this, this double whammy. Even if you're in a very emotionally intelligent family, the men may not have very close emotional relationships with each other regardless. And they've already been shown that they shouldn't be showing it.

Yeah. So there are a bunch of different responses you can say here. Like, you can try to have a bigger conversation about that. Like just what I talked about a second ago about, like, well, I don't know how to do that. You can talk about their history around that. You could say something like, I'm not expecting you to be good at it, but I just want us to try it a little bit more too, because I think people get in their heads about, like, I'm not good at it. Like, what does that even mean, to be good at talking about feelings? You know, so that's another. Another way to phrase it with your partner. It's like, I don't need you to be good at it. I don't even know what good at it means, but it makes me closer to you when I Get to hear all the different emotions that you're expressing. Another thing to say could be reminding them that they actually do talk about emotions. I think a lot of us get in our heads thinking, like, I'm not good at this. But the reality is we talk about emotions pretty much every day. Like, oh, I had such a bad day at work today, or I was so frustrated about this thing, or I got really annoyed at this thing. So reminding your partner of, like, oh, that's interesting that you think that way because I actually see you talk about emotions a lot. Like, just the other day you were telling me about da, da, da. You know, so kind of reminding them like, you do do this. You know how to do it.

Yeah. No. If your male partner is into sports, this is probably the best way. The best way in. You can be like, hey, I know you might not recognize this, but I see you express a lot of emotion around, you know, insert their sports team right there. Hey, just last week when, you know, when so and so lost, I was about to name. I was about to name a team that based on the team that I like, I would be very happy if they lost. I didn't do that, though. I'm not gonna do that.

But, like, you know, okay, weirdo, just say it. Drag em.

No, no, no. But no, it's like, yeah, hey, when your team lost, like, I noticed you talking about how bummed or sad you were. Maybe felt angry about X, Y and Z.

And it's like, back with the angry again.

Or they won. Hey, you were so happy and you were talking about it. And I think that it's just reminding them that is talking about your feelings. Think about what that feels like. It might even be helpful to be like, hey, imagine what it's like when your team loses or when someone got injured or, you know, or when they won, when they won the championship, whatever it is, and kind of walking them through, like, oh, yeah, like I can talk about that. I know what that's like. And it's like, yeah, so this is the same thing. It's just applying that to other things that happen in life.

Okay. Another common response. I think it's fine. Oh, God, it's such a stonewalling. Yeah, such a stonewalling kind of reaction. Like you're trying to just cut the conversation off right there. So the phrase that I always have in my back pocket for this is, I'm glad that it feels fine for you. You and me are a team, and when something matters to one of us, it should matter to both of us. So you're letting them have their experience. If they feel like there's plenty of emotional intimacy, that's fine. You don't get to, like, you don't get to completely deny their experience or say, like, you can't possibly. That's just gonna make them more defensive and more shut down. So be like, yeah, okay, sure. I'm glad it feels that way for you. It's not feeling that way for me, though. And I think, you know, as a partnership, this is the agreement that we make that when something matters to one of us, it matters to both of us.

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like if, like, one partner always cooks, like, the same meal every week and they love it and you don't like it, or, like, even in worst case scenario, like, it makes you kind of sick or something, like, it would be totally unreasonable of your partner to be like, well, I like it, so I'm just gonna keep making it. Right. Like, we tend to modify the things that we do so that we are when it comes to eating. Like, we're not making stuff that we actively dislike regularly just because the other person likes it. Right. So, like, why would we do that in our, you know, in our relationship?

And I'll also say, like, I just think it's so important to keep returning to, like, this is a positive thing. I love you. I want to get to know you better. I want to see you more. Like, it's. Again, it's not an insult or anything like that. It's a, like, I want to see more of you. The more I know about you, the more I love you.

All right. And then finally, this is a good one, Vanessa. You ask for, you know, something along the lines of wanting more emotional intimacy, and your partner turns it around and goes, well, I want more sex. What the heck do you do then?

Yeah, I mean, that's why we're doing these two episodes back to back, because we do think both physical and emotional intimacy are equally important. We'll talk about this more next week. But I think there is this tendency to think of sex as just sex, just this physical act, when it really is an incredible act of intimacy. So this is probably, you know, you're getting this in a snarky, like, defensive, like, well, I want more sex. And this really points to, like, the classic standoff that couples get into of, like, well, I want to feel close to you before we have sex, but the way I feel close to you is by having sex. You know, it just feels like this huge standoff. So I think the key here is to validate your partner and say, like, yeah, I want us to have more physical intimacy too. Or, you know, I'm glad that you are wanting to feel closer to me in that way. Like, I. At the end of the day, most couples want both things, right? Like, we want. Yeah, more of both. We want to feel more emotional intimacy. We want to feel more physical intimacy. And so, rather than fighting over, well, whose thing gets to come first is recognizing, like, hey, we both want more of both things. So let's work together as a team to make sure we're both getting the both things that we need.

Yeah. I mean, it could even be as simple of a response as like, hey, that's great news. I think that we can both get more of each of these things if we just do a couple simple things.

We know that as you've been listening to this episode, this might be feeling really challenging. I mean, let's be real. Creating more emotional intimacy, it is difficult. So many of us are struggling with it for a reason. And it can feel very challenging to try to figure out your own path of getting there when there are so many big questions that come up. So the good news is we have your back. We have something incredibly exciting that we are running just for the next couple of weeks that will give you a step by step, concrete and specific game plan to creating more emotional and physical intimacy. And it is sweet or spicy.

Yeah. So sweet or spicy. It combines our two most loved challenges. So that's the connection challenge and the sex challenge to help you reignite that honeymoon phase spark and get back to feeling closer than ever before.

So the connection challenge is your specific path towards creating more emotional intimacy, while the sex challenge is your path for creating more physical intimacy. So you can choose here, like, what are you wanting more of in your relationship right now? But ultimately, we do think that most relationships would benefit from both. So rather than sweet or spicy, it can be sweet and spicy.

Yeah, that's. That's the move. So let me tell you how it works. You can start the challenges whenever you want. Either challenge, each one will send you 30 unique emails with two quick yet very powerful activities that are designed to increase intimacy, whether that's physical or emotional, between you and your partner. So we're talking like 10 to 20 minutes for each challenge, and they're really designed to be as doable as possible. Plus, the really cool thing is that you get to choose your own pace. Like, you can do these whenever you want. Totally up to you. Like, you want to do it once a week. Awesome. Every few days. Even better. Whatever feels good to you.

So if you go sweet with the connection challenge, your two daily options are going to include a communication activity. So this is a thought provoking question or discussion prompt that ranges from fun and flirty to deep and meaningful. You'll also get an action activity. So this is a short, playful activity you and your partner complete together.

All right, now, if you get spicy with the sex challenge each day, you're going to receive essential activity. So this is like an activity. It's based around communication, touch, or maybe even foreplay. Because, hey, honestly, sometimes the hottest moments happen when your clothes are still on and then a sexual activity. So this is an R rated assignment, but I want to be really clear. And it is not just intercourse, contrary to popular opinion.

So you can get either challenge individually for $129, or you can get both for only one 99. That's a massive discount because we really want to encourage couples to go all in and get both. And we want to give you a very important heads up. This is actually going to be the very last time we do sweet or spicy. We have done it for years now. If you've been around for a long time, you might have also known it as intimate or nasty. That was our original name. But we are going to stop offering the challenge in these formats. We're making some changes to our business. Trying to simplify things. We are retiring a lot of our guides and courses, even the super popular ones. So if you want a chance to do sweet or spicy, this is your absolute last chance before we close it down.

Yeah. So discover more about the sweet or spicy challenge by heading to the show notes of this episode. Or you can just go over to vmtherapy.com sweet or spicy. And on that note, that is it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we deliver the sister the other side of the coin to this one, which we are already telling you about. We will be doing an episode all about physical intimacy and how to get more physical intimacy. Emotional intimacy. What the heck is that even.

Yes, we will discuss that.

Oh, I was trying to tee you up.

Wait, what?

Because the next thing is. What is emotional intimacy? Oh, girl.

Okay, sorry.