Episode 187: Am I The Asshole? The Holiday Edition Part 2

Your mom accusing me of having an affair with your dad? That is fucking wild. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for share your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. This episode is brought to you by zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare highly rated in network doctors near you and instantly book appointments with them online. Go to Zocdoc.comPillow and download the Zocdoc app for free. It is time for another round of Am I the Asshole? One of our favorite games.

Holiday Edition.

Holiday Edition. So extra spicy.

We're cooking with gas today.

Oh, okay. What does that mean?

That's right. I mean, you have Am I the Asshole? In general? Which is always spicy. And then you add on the layer of holiday stress in laws, parents, gifts, spending money, kids, expectations like, this one's gonna be good. I already know it. I haven't even seen any of the questions because I know you like to surprise me. I'm ready. I'm cozy. I got Chauncey right between my legs. He's snuggled up so close. We're like, yeah, we're ready. We just need to get our holiday cheer on.

Okay, so if you haven't heard of Am I the Asshole or Aita, we cannot take credit for this. It is a Reddit thing. So the whole premise here is that you send in a story about a complicated situation and the question you're asking is like, am I the asshole here or is the other person the asshole? Basically, like, who's in the wrong? Who's at fault here? So this is a very popular topic on Reddit. We felt like, you know, this is so genius, we're gonna steal it and use it in our podcast.

We're not stealing it. We want it to be insp.

It's a tribute. It's a tribute to Reddit.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, on Reddit you can type up a whole essay, but you can't talk back and forth. And so, you know, we're just. We want to talk this stuff out.

So we turned to our community on Instagram and if you're not following us there, definitely come on over. We're at Vanessa and Xander. Xander is with an ex and we asked people like, tell us about your holiday situations and scenarios. What's going on? What situations are leaving you wondering? Am I the asshole here or is it somebody else? Family, my in laws, my partner. And we have some doozies for you.

We do?

Yeah.

Great.

Let's be real. When you think about holiday gifting, our ultimate foreplay guides probably aren't the first thing that come to mind. But because you are a pillow talks listener, you know just how important intimacy is. Especially this time of year. Because when you and your partner feel like you're on the same page, you can do anything. Anything. Even survive the holidays.

And we've got an irresistible deal for you. But you're gonna have to stick around to catch all the details.

So we have some great news to share with you. Our holiday gift guide is here and it is stacked with the perfect intimacy boosting gifts to bring you more joy, excitement, connection and of course, pleasure. This season we have made it even more fun by creating a few holiday pursuits Personas to make it super easy to find exactly what you need. So, are you a naughty elf? Maybe you are a mistletoe mastermind.

So you'll have to head on over to the gift guide to discover your holiday Persona and we'll match you with the perfect gift. So no more guesswork. Cause we've done all the work for you.

Whether you're shopping for your partner or treating yourself, we're here to guide you through the magic of giving and receiving this holiday season.

And the best part is you're gonna get 20% off all all of our featured bestselling courses and guides. Plus a last chance to get a couple products that we're going to be retiring when you use the code Happy Holidays24. But only until December 26th.

Yeah, it's worth checking out the holiday gift guide just to see the things that are retiring because we are making some changes going forward. You're definitely going to want to see what things are retiring because this is truly going to be your last chance ever to grab them.

Don't settle for the same old boring socks and sweaters this year. Go to vmtherapy.com giftguide and make this holiday and beyond unforgettable.

Okay, so let's dive right in. Xander, I will read you the first one. Let's trade off reading them. Whoever is not reading it has to start with their hot take.

Okay, sounds Good. I'm ready to go.

Okay. I refuse to go to my in laws for Thanksgiving because they have salmon. I forgot about this.

Seriously? Seriously.

The parentheses kills me with the skin on.

The horror.

Okay, I have to restart. I refuse to go to my in laws for Thanksgiving because they have had salmon with the skin on and mostly cold sides. Both times that I went.

Because they have. They dared. They dared to have skin on salmon.

I've been married for 10 years and we've only gone there twice at the beginning of our marriage. They invite us every year, but we don't go because I want some turkey and the traditional sides. We go to a friend's house instead. Xander, who's the asshole in this situation?

You're the asshole. Yeah, you're the asshole who doesn't like salmon. I mean, I can think of so. I can think of so many things here. I love. I love.

How so are we biased because we like salmon?

I love salmon. I don't mind salmon with the skin on. I don't. I don't eat the salmon skin. I do like the skin on because I'll take it off and give it to our dogs because they love salmon skin. But salmon is delicious in pretty much every form. Raw, cooked, smoked, anything. Canned even.

Ugh. No. I draw the line at canned and smoked, actually.

I love it. I could eat salmon every day, be a very happy guy. But yeah, okay, so you refuse to go to Thanksgiving. This is 10. Okay, so basically you're saying nine and 10 years ago they had salmon. And I mean, I don't know why.

But the salmon just makes it so much funnier. Like, if it was like, chicken or roast beef or something, it wouldn't be that funny. But.

I mean, really, Isaiah, you're an asshole for not liking salmon because salmon is delicious.

We've already covered that. We have to move on.

But. Okay, so nine and ten years ago they had salmon. And it sounds like you are assuming that they hate turkey. They never do turkey. Do you know. Have they told you?

I know.

We are anti.

They might not even.

We're anti turkey.

Two years. We're trying to be a little creative, but then they've been having turkey for.

I know. For the last eight years they've been having a super traditional Thanksgiving. And yeah, you're just a total asshole for not going. Look, if it's causing strife that you are not going to Thanksgiving at your family's house, they want you. Probably your partner would like to go there. Why don't you try going and you could ask what Are we making, what are we having? If no one is making turkey, maybe you could bring some turkey. Like, be the change that you want to see in the world. Vanessa is laughing because I said that yesterday to somebody else in a very different situation.

That's so dramatic. Be the change you want to see in the world. Bring your own turkey.

Well, I mean, it's like, yeah, you could, you can complain that they have, you know, shit food for Thanksgiving or you could bring some, you know, you could contribute to bringing some, some better food. I mean, I just think it's like, I think that it's totally fair to be like, you know, hey, I really love like a traditional Thanksgiving meal. I'm not asking you to, like, you have to make it exactly the way I want it, but like, could we, you know, how would you feel about us, you know, maybe adding in some, you know, a regular turkey and maybe some mashed potatoes or, you know, something. Where to you were like, okay, cool, I'm going to have, you know, my, a little bit of traditional stuff and also some other stuff.

If you're spending time with loved ones for the holidays, chances are you're going to hear a lot of stories. The ones you love to hear, the ones you've heard too many times. But have you ever wanted to help your loved ones capture those timeless stories? Not just for themselves, but for you, your entire family and even future generations to come? It can seem daunting to write an entire book of life memories, but Storyworth makes it fun and easy. So here's how it works. Each week, Storyworth emails your loved one a thought provoking question and you get to help pick these questions. So there's things like, what's the bravest thing you've ever done? What's the farthest you've ever traveled? Or how did you used to get to school? Every day, all your loved one has to do is write back a quick little email with that story. Long or short, it doesn't matter. You get emailed a copy of their response. So it's really cool. Like as they go about gathering all these stories, you get to have these little check ins along the way. And after an entire year, Storyworth takes all those stories and compiles them into a beautiful keeps hardcover book that you can share and revisit for generations to come. We are so glad to have Storyworth back as a podcast sponsor because we think this is one of the most meaningful gifts that you can give to your loved one. Like, we are all struggling at the holidays to think of meaningful gifts to not resort to just buying the same old crap off of people's wish lists or the same boring things that you know are just going to end up getting re gifted. This is such a meaningful gift to give to your loved one. We gave it to my mom and my dad. We had so much fun going through this year of stories together. And to be able to have this book at the end of the experience is just so incredibly valuable. I mean it's truly priceless. Families love Storyworth. That's why it has more than 35,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot. With millions of stories preserved since they were founded over 10 years ago. Help your family members share and capture their stories this holiday season with StoryWorth. Go to StoryWorth.comPillow today and save $10 on your first purchase. That's S T O R Y W O R-T-H.comPillow to save $10 on your 1st purchase. Storyworth.comPillow yeah, I mean I think that this person. You're totally being the asshole. Like you're ruining a very special family time solely over the food. And of course we don't have the rest of the details but like I can't imagine that the in laws would refuse to allow Thanksgiving meal on their like a traditional Thanksgiving meal on their table. Like just bring your own. And you can very simply say to them like, hey, we really want to spend the holidays with you. You know what, I just love the traditional Thanksgiving meal. So like would it be okay if I brought some stuff over or offer to cook with them? Like maybe you can start a new tradition. We don't know the story of the salmon. Like maybe they just were trying to be creative one year and try something different.

Or their turkey didn't defrost.

Yeah, maybe they just don't love or they've never had a great turkey. Like we don't know what the reasons are. So you could offer like, hey, could we start a new tradition where I come over or we have it at our house. You know, why don't you guys come over and we could cook together. I could show you, like especially with in laws and like I could imagine saying to your parents, hey, I grew up with all these amazing recipes that I'm so attached to. Like, could I show you what my family makes? Could we make it together or could we pick some recipes, you know, some new recipes that we're gonna cook together? Like there's so many ways to get what you want but in a way that's sweet and could even Create more connection between the two of you. Like just have a fucking conversation or.

Do what this person does and just make an excuse for why you're not gonna hang out with your in laws. Cause I think deep down, I think deep down this person just doesn't want to hang out with their in laws for Thanksgiving.

Howling up. And that's a different question. If you. So right back to us if you're like, okay, yeah, I blamed it on the salmon, but actually it's this.

You're gonna have to think of a better excuse.

Yeah, but like just saying it's because of Sam. Get out of here. No, you're being an asshole.

All right, moving on. Am I the asshole for not wanting to go to my in laws at all this holiday season? Sensing a trend.

First person writing Back in June, my.

Mother in law accused me and my father in law of having an affair and confessed her hatred of me for the last 10 years. Father in law told us all of the vile, foul things she said about me and our children. She apologized, but also said I always knew how she felt about me so it shouldn't come as a surprise. And now all is supposed to be well. I want nothing to do with them but am being told that I need to get over it and it's fine. Now that she apologized, I don't feel like it was genuine, but I don't know, am I the asshole?

Okay, I totally forgot about this one. Because we collected these stories a few weeks ago. My mind was blown. You know, I'm, I'm the kind of person who, I know that there's always two sides to every story. I'm always trying to be open minded about what could the other person's perspective be. But to IM like to imagine your mom accusing me of having an affair with your dad would be that is wild. And to like it sounds like she straight up said like, yeah, I hated you for the last 10 years. That's wild.

You and your children. Yeah, you and my grandchildren. My own grandchildren.

Yeah. To say nasty things about your grandchildren, like that's next level. So I actually reached out to her because I was like, I gotta know more details of this. This is wild. So I said to her, thanks for sharing. Can we ask for more details? Why does your mother in law think you had an affair? What were the vile things that she said? So here's what she wrote back. So she has an entire list in her notes page on her phone. Things she thought we were doing inappropriately right in front of her, which made her believe that we were having an affair. Said that whenever I'd hand him my son, who was at the time a newborn, I'd rub my boobs on his hands. Can you imagine? You have a newborn in your hands and you're like trying to pass him off and oh, that's your time to try to get flirty.

Oh yeah. Oh, I just can't wait to hand my newborn son off so that I can get a little boob rub.

Or he'd walk by me and grab my butt. All of these things which have never happened. When my daughter started her period, my mother in law mentioned that maybe someone inappropriately touched her like that started her period. Yeah, I mean that's just factually completely incorrect, but also such an offensive thing to say again about your grandchild. The mother in law has also called me a whore. She said that the reason we have cameras in our home and a doorbell camera is because she thought my husband couldn't trust me and thought I cheating on him, which was just her assumption because my husband and I are happily married. She has called other family members and talked about how unhappy and miserable I am, how her son deserves better than me. My father in law told us that she treats our daughters differently than our son because they remind her so much of me. For the last three years, she has accused my father in law every time he's seen me or been around me. But it all just became known to me and my husband in June. Some backstory. My husband and father in law work together. Anytime I would cook dinner, I would send home a plate or a container of food for both my father in law and mother in law. My father in law would have to leave it in the truck or throw it out because she would not allow him to eat the food that I would cook whenever they would come home from work. My father in law wasn't even allowed to come into our home to see my children, even with my husband his son present without my mother in law being there because she just accused him of trying to see me. It's so weird. Like she said, she didn't think I really wanted my father in law. She thought I was just doing it to be spiteful to her. At Christmas and birthday, he was not allowed to make any type of suggestions for me, but he could pick out things for my sister in law. He spent several days alone with my sister in law but has never been accused of anything with her. Just me. My father in law went to my sister in law's house while her husband was at work and Spent hours there with my sister in law and no kids or anything, working on their home and never once was accused. I on the other hand, have never been anywhere alone with him in 10 years. There's always someone around us or my children. There's so much I could say and share. So yeah, there's a lot going on here. But the basic, let's, let's start with the basic question of can somebody just apologize for stuff like this? And you should all be over it.

And fake apologize because she's like, she apologized but then was like, but you must have already known all of this.

Yeah, I mean it sounds like. So the big question of can people do really terrible things to each other and apologize and move on. Yes, absolutely. We do really hurtful things to the people we love all the time. So I do believe that we need, you know, we all need to work on receiving apologies and being able to move on.

But apologies aren't the be all, end all. It's not like oh, once you apologize, all is forgiven. There can be a whole period of repair action that's required.

An apologetic beginning of the repair process. Process. It's not just, you know, oh yeah, you get an apology and now you're supposed to completely erase your memory. Right. Like depending on what happened, the apology is just the beginning of what could potentially be a very long process of reconciling and repairing the relationship.

Yeah, right. I mean rebuilding trust even.

Yeah. But in this situation it sounds like the apology that she got was not very sincere at all. Like I, I don't get the sense at all that the mother in law is sorry for what she's done, that she wants to change the relationship going forward. That there's been any sort of like insight or progress made for her personally.

Like it just honest, honestly, it feels like possibly like a mental health situation, like a paranoid delusion type of situation just sort of given the, given some of the details that this person shared. So like I have some, I definitely have some sympathy for. There's something, there's something more going on here. I don't think this is just, I don't like you so I'm going to decide to make something up. It's like, yeah, it's, you know, it probably feels very real to, to the mother and she's probably really grappling with possibly some, some challenging stuff in her own head.

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes searching for the right doctor is like bad mad libs. You need a blank specialist who takes your blank insurance within blank miles of you, who doesn't have a blank month wait to get in for an appointment. Well, the good news is ZocDoc makes it easy to fill in those blanks and help you find the right doctor for your specific needs. So if you haven't heard of it before, ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors. Choose the right one for your needs and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about in network appointments. With more than 100,000 healthcare providers across every specialty from mental health to dental health, eye care to skincare, and so much more, they really wanna make the process of finding the right doctor easy. Because Zocdoc knows it's really stressful. When you're going through a medical challenge, you need to find a doctor. It's just, it's a really difficult experience to go through. So with Zocdoc you can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located near, are a good fit for your specific needs and highly rated by verified patients. Plus ZocDoc appointments happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. The next time one of us needs a doctor, we will be turning to Zocdoc to help us figure out our best path forward. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.compillow to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That z o c-o c.com pillow zocdoc.com pillow so in this scenario I don't think you're the asshole. I think your mother in law is the asshole here for sure. And I think it's very healthy for you to draw some boundaries and say I'm not going to spend the holidays with my in laws. Like, you've done some really horrible things to me. You've said terrible things about the kids. I don't know if there was an apology about the things said to the kids, but I mean I would if I was the mom here I'd get real mama bear and be like I'm not letting you have access to my children if you're gonna talk about them like that, like so I think it's very healthy to draw some boundaries. If she is getting a sense that like, okay, so let's say that she gets a genuine apology that the mother in law is like, hey, I was really going through some stuff, I'm so sorry. I want us to repair and start.

To move forward and I understand that this could take a while because this is a really big thing. Part of an apology is explaining to a person how you actually understand. Explaining it almost sort of like proving to the other person that you understand the scope or the gravity. We so often have this glass half full idea of apologies of like it's this magic bullet. I mean, I think the reality is this is like the way that most of us are raised as kids. You know, I'm just thinking of like, you know, in kindergarten or whatever. You know, it's like you do something mean to some other kid and the teacher's like, okay, now you have to apologize. And then, you know, you learn, okay, well, I was forced to apologize and now this person is forced to forgive me. And we forget that, like there's all this other stuff behind it. It's like, no, you have to really show the person that you understand the impact that your actions or whatever you've done had on that person and empathize with that.

But so I would say still, even in the best case scenario, if she did get a genuine apology and the mother in law wants to move forward, I still think it's fine to say, you know what, we're not doing the holidays together for a little while. Maybe we'll ease into it by let's have a family outing or you can come over for dinner and gradually work your way back. But the holidays just feel like, you know, I think for most people they're an especially important and meaningful time.

And it's a high stakes. I mean, it's a high stakes time too.

So, like, why is so intense? So, yeah, I would say again, in the best case scenario, which we're not here yet, I would still probably not want to spend several holidays together, but try to move forward, you know, spending time at other times of the year together.

I'd also say a huge red flag here. And I'm curious because this person doesn't say who is pushing them, but the fact that there's this, that someone or people are pushing her to get over it now that the mom has apologized and like, it's time to move on. I hope it's not your partner because that feels kind of not cool. I don't know if it's other family members or the mom herself, but I think, I mean, that's a huge red flag where it's like, like, you know, that, that feels like the situation I just described where, you know, like, sort of like the teacher forces someone to apologize and then it's like, okay, well, they apologize. So now you have to be Cool. And it's like, no, that's like, that's not the world that we are living in. Like, there was some serious hurt that happened here and you're right to mistrust this person.

Yeah, absolutely. So you are definitely not the. I am so sorry you and your kids have had to go through this. Yeah, I should have asked about the partner. I didn't ask any questions about that. But definitely protect yourself and do not force yourself to spend the holidays with somebody who has been so cruel to you. Okay, let's move on to the next one. My mother in law always wants to do Secret Santa, but then she always buys everyone gifts anyways. On top of Secret Santa, we, My husband, sister in law, brother in law would rather spend money on us doing something as a family. But my mother in law says, I'm the mom who's the asshole here?

I don't think anyone is the asshole here. Like, I know. I feel like this is, this is an issue that we've kind of confronted in, in your family with gift giving. Like, so, I mean, I guess I'm assuming this person is saying, like, is my mother in law the asshole for spending more money on gifts for us than we are spending on her or them? And therefore, I guess, presumably like making you feel guilty that you haven't done enough? And I mean, I would question that whole assumption. Like, I think that that's in your head, the idea that, like that, like, oh, gift giving has to be completely equal or, yeah, reciprocal, even equitable. Like, yeah, different people have different relationships with gift giving. It's one thing if you're like, I don't want to receive gifts at all. But, you know, I think that that.

Is your right to say, yeah, it's.

Your right to be like, you know what? I'm like, I'm opting out of gifting this year. Like, please don't get me a gift. Your brother did that this year. He said, please, if you insist on getting me something, please donate money to any of these specific causes. You know, I think that's totally fair. I totally, totally respect that. I think where gifting stuff gets challenging is it's like, oh, don't, don't give me that. Because then, then I'm gonna feel bad or I'm gonna, you know, you're gonna hold it over me or something. It's like, no, this person is willingly giving you a gift. I mean, it's called a gift for a reason. Like, it's a gift is meant to be. Like, you give someone something without an expectation of something in return. Now if there is an expectation, that's a different story. But this person isn't saying that here. So, you know, if it is a situation where six months later mother in law is talking shit, being like, oh, I gave you all these presents and I only got, I only got the Secret Santa, then yeah, she is the asshole.

Yeah. I want to go back to what you said a second ago because I think this is something that trips so many people up around the holidays. Like, giving a gift means I'm giving you something without the expectation of reciprocity. It's not a gift if you're like, I'm giving you this. Okay, where's my thing? Like, that's not, that's not the same spirit of what gifting means. But I think so many of us have forgotten that when we receive something from somebody, and honestly, this is because a lot of us are so uncomfortable with receiving in general. It's like when we receive something from somebody, we get ourselves all worked up of like, oh, no, I have to give you back something in return.

And then, because if you do, then it's not, then you don't have to feel the receiving feelings because it's like, okay, cool, we didn't exchange, so we're good.

We didn't exchange. We're good. There's no imbalance here. And people can even get really specific with it around, like how much money is spent. Like, okay, we, we're giving each other gifts, but you spent a little bit more money than I did. So I think reminding ourselves of that's not the spirit or the intention. Like, yes, Christmas and the holidays have gotten so fucking nuts. And people do feel a lot of pressure and expectation. There's so many, like, complicated dynamics that have come up. But we really have to go back to like the spirit and the intention of what this is about. And I think that would help a lot of people if we could remember that.

Yeah. And I think that it's totally fair for you to talk about this with your mother in law. Like if she. So for this coming Christmas, if she says, all right, let's do Secret Santa instead of, you know, gifts for everyone or something like that. It's fair to say, hey, like, I know that very often you get more gifts. And in the past I felt compelled to need to match that or something. And you know, this year, like, you know, if, if we're, if the, if we're saying we're going to do Secret Santa instead of gift giving, like, we're, we're really going to stick to that. And you're welcome to do whatever you want to do. And, like, you know, just so it's clear, like, we're. We are not doing anything more this year. That is totally fair to say that. I doubt that is going to stop your mother in law from getting you other things. It probably makes her feel really good to get things for you. So can you feel good about her generosity?

Yeah. So I think what you could do, like, if the group of you would rather do something together as a family, go ahead and do that. But just talk about that with your mother in law beforehand. Like, hey, it would feel really meaningful for us to all do something together as a family. You know, the four of us are gonna plan something. Do you want to be a part of it? But if she. So it's like, I guess there's two different things. It's. Do you guys want to participate in Secret Santa at all? Because I think it's. We're getting looped in with, like, she's also getting the additional gifts. So if you're fine doing Secret Santa, go ahead and do Secret Santa. But then, you know, spend your money doing something together with all of you. And then with the separate gifts that mom is getting on top of that, I'd say just let her be. As long as she's not, you know, of course, like, pulling something.

Yeah.

Lording it over, you know, I spent so much money on you. If she's just like, hey, I'm the mom and I love giving you guys gifts. Just accept the gifts, practice the receiving. You don't have to do anything in return. And if you don't want to do the Secret Santa at all, then I think that's a really fine thing as well to draw a boundary around and say, hey, look, we really don't want to do that. This year we're going to plan something, like a special family time. We'd love for you to join, but no pressure or expectation. You don't have to if you don't want to, but, you know, just opt out from that. But like we were saying with my brother, you totally can also opt out from receiving gifts. If it feels really bothersome to you that somebody's gonna get you a gift, then just tell them that, like, hey, I really don't want anything or do what my brother did. Donate to this cause instead of buying me, like, a physical item. But yeah, you can draw boundaries around all the things. Go ahead and do that. But I agree with you that nobody's the Asshole in this scenario.

Okay, our next one. My husband comes from a super small family. Him, mom, sister, nephew, and I have a huge family on both sides. Cousins, aunts, uncles, et cetera. Hey, this sounds like, this sounds like my and Vanessa situation. My in laws are always invited to anything my extended family does or whatever get togethers are planned, including holidays and vacations. 9 out of 10 times they decline to join. My husband says it's because they'd rather just do something with the two of us. Am I the asshole for thinking that it would be beneficial for everyone to celebrate a holiday together and combine family celebrations so no one misses out? I understand joining in a big family can be overwhelming at times and I would never expect them to attend every single event that comes up. But we've been together for nine years and married for six. I think it's time to get over it. I feel like we always have to choose sides and if we don't choose my in laws, we then get complaints and guilt trips about it later on. Especially from my sister in law.

Oh, this is a really tough one. I sympathize with everybody involved in this. I guess I think that this is, this is another one where nobody's being the asshole. Although if I have to pick, I think it's the person who wrote this.

I was gonna say, I was gonna say the same.

A little tiny touch of asshole.

This has shades of the last one where it's like, oh, well, if only this other person or other people would do this or would not do this, then I would feel better about myself. And it's like, look, we can't, we can't be like the director of our entire life and be like, okay, well I'm gonna do this. And then they're gonna do this and that person's gonna do this. All so that, you know, I'm the star of the show or like, things go easy for me. It's like we have to accept other people are going to do different things, are going to make different choices. They're going to behave or act in ways that don't always make us feel comfortable. And we don't get to be like, you can't do that so that I can feel better about myself.

Yeah. So like, it's, it's really nice that this person wants to invite their in laws and like wants to celebrate all together. I think that's a really beautiful sentiment. I, I totally agree with you that that would be like the best case scenario. And I also understand that for some people, like that's just not their vibe. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe it's just that your in laws don't really want to be around huge groups. Or maybe it's simply like, we just want to have that more quality time with you guys where we can, you know, be together two on two or whatever. So, like, I totally get, I totally get the in laws wanting to just, you know, have a little bit of time. Yeah, I think the person saying, like, you just have to get over it. That's what makes me feel like they're a little tiny bit of an asshole. It feels like the in laws have their preferences, they've stated them, and they're not gonna get over them. So this is what's really challenging about being married is that you have two families and you have two people who grew up spending all the holidays with their families, and now you've come together and you have to figure out, well, we can't do what we always used to do. And this was and continues to be really challenging in our own marriage. Oh, yeah, Like, I love the holidays with my family. And what Xander and I decided to do is to split them up and we spend Thanksgiving with his family and Christmas with my family. And I like, you know, I love my in laws too. I love spending time together. We were just with Xander's side of the family for Thanksgiving. It was really nice. And I also really miss my family during Thanksgiving and like, wish that we could spend, you know, I wish we could find some way to be in two places at the same time. So I get that, you know, that sadness of imagining, gosh, now am I, you know, I haven't had a Thanksgiving with my family in 17 years. And that's sad. Like there's for sure a sadness and a grief that goes along with that. So I empathize with the person writing in. But it's just also, I feel like this is just the reality of being in a relationship. And it doesn't mean you have to do 5050 exactly like what we did. Maybe it's, you know, you spend the majority of the holidays with your family, but every couple of years you do the little, you know, individual two on two kind of thing with your in laws. You and your husband have to figure out how you want to break them up. But again, I just kind of keep coming back to that's just the reality of being married. It's tough to figure out who to spend the holidays with.

And it's also not fair to expect that, okay, well, because I got married to someone in this other family that now everybody else in my family is just going to, like, join into their family. Yeah, like, you know, it's. Yes, you married into that family. You are a part of that family now. But your family, your family is not. Your family is your family. And, yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes when this happens that you know, maybe other people in the small family, like, want to be involved in that other family. And this is sort of like your, your uncle, your dad's brother kind of became a part of your mom's family because he lived in the same place. He was far away from his family, and he just became a part of the family, but he chose to do that. It's very different if, you know, I don't know if you're this, you know, your husband's family lives in a different place or whatever, but they have their own traditions, they have their own ideas of what. Of what holidays are like. And I've had to grapple with that, you know, with my own family, because it's. Yeah, there have been times where I'm like, oh, if you would just come to, you know, Vanessa's family's celebration, then like, you know, then like, no one has to miss out.

Yeah.

But the reality is everyone has their different preferences and you can't please everybody. And, you know, part of it is like, yeah, for Vanessa, she grew up in a large family, so she's used to holiday gatherings being a certain way and there being a certain vibe. And my family is very small, and so they're used to holiday celebrations being another vibe. One thing that I've really come to realize is that, you know, like my. I know my mom, for example, she really values small group or one on one connection and interaction. She's always been able to have lots of one on one or, you know, close to one on one interaction with multiple people. At a small family gathering, because it's small, but at your gathering with like 30 people, it's hard to do that. There's not those opportunities for one on one time. There's people everywhere and you love that. And I have loved that coming into your family. That's something that I didn't realize that I enjoyed because I never had it. And I'm like, oh, this is great. So it's totally natural to get into a large family and be like, oh, my God, this is so cool. You should, everyone should come join me. But it's not everyone's cup of tea, and I think you have to accept that.

Yeah. Okay, let's move on to the next One, my partner and I grew up very different. He grew up with a lot of money. I grew up poor. Last time, for the first time, he came home for a family Thanksgiving. After that trip, we had a huge fight because he says, just like I'm not used to how his family lives, he's not used to how my family lives. They own a trailer park and live in one of the trailers for that reason. And after a lot of back and forth, we open compromised that he only has to go home to visit my family one holiday a year. I have to convince my family to travel somewhere to celebrate another holiday a year, and anything else involving my family I have to do alone. I think as a partner, he should have to show up knowing that I will make it as comfortable for him as possible to complicate things. I have a lot of past family trauma that I have really worked on setting boundaries and separating myself from the drama. And I only go visit them about three times a year. It's a four hour drive. So having a partner that is supportive in those visits is important to me. Am I the asshole for having that expectation? Ooh, this is a tricky one too.

This is a tricky one.

And I feel like we're missing some details of like, I want to know what made him uncomfortable. Was he literally just uncomfortable because it's a trailer park and he's used to being in a fancy home, or was there like something that happened?

Is it like you're. You're sleep, like you're sleeping there and you don't feel comfortable? Like, I'm curious what is.

There's so many things that could be and it would be.

We have some suggestions for various situations. I can think of a couple.

If it's just like, oh, you're living in a trailer park, like, that's kind of an asshole y thing to do. But if it's like, oh, we don't have any privacy or there's not a comfortable place for us to sleep, like.

Yeah, or like book a hotel nearby. I think that this is, I mean, taking, taking like money and poverty issues, like, out of the picture. People forget, like, there are other options. And yeah, I know that it costs money to get a hotel room, but it's like, it's also. It's sort of like, yeah, what's, what's the cost of your sanity? And in this case specifically, it sounds like you and, or your partner especially definitely has the means to be able to just get a hotel room or something where it's like, yeah, you don't have to be there 24 7. You don't have to stay somewhere that you feel uncomfortable staying. But I think, you know, being able to do a holiday with a family and just kind of taking them for who they are and not being like, I can't be around this. It disgusts me. Like that I'm getting that vibe that it's just like, I'm like gritting, okay, I'll do one. I'm gritting my teeth to do it, but like, like, I'm out now. It's a different story. If it's like, they've been a dick to him, I feel like they would.

Have gotten the question.

Yeah, I think so.

It would have been like, you know, oh, my parents were really rude to him or they, you know, whatever. I feel like that would have been in the question if it was that. I think my guess is very confident in. My guess is simply that he's uncomfortable because it's not a lavish setting, like the way he's used to. So, yeah, I'm with you that sleep somewhere else. Like, I totally get it. Everybody wants to be comfortable. Traveling around the holidays is tough. Not having your space, not having your privacy. So go sleep somewhere else. But yeah, if it's just the, like, I don't want to be in a trailer. Like, that just feels lame. Also, why don't you guys host? Like, that could be part of it too. I mean. Yeah, it sounds like there's, you know, one. A lot of, like traveling to the parents house. Could you guys. Maybe you guys can pay for the parents to come travel to you?

Yeah, I mean, it's four hours away. Book. Yeah, book. Like book a book. A car service to drive them.

Yeah, that might be a solution here. I do think this is interesting though, because the person writing this says, I'm working on setting a lot of boundaries and separating myself. Yet they're also mad at their partner for setting boundaries and separating himself.

Yeah, though it sounds like a kind of messed up boundary that he set.

Yes.

Though we have limited information. It's hard. Hard to know. But if it's just like, I agree.

That the boundary is dumb, but let's say a different scenario where, you know, the partner's like, yeah, I just. Your family hasn't been very nice to me or whatever. There's like a more legit reason than, like, I just don't want to be in a trailer park. It is such an interesting parallel that this person's like, I'm trying to separate. I'm trying to have boundaries. So. Well, let's look at the basic heart of the question. Like, is a partner allowed to draw boundaries around how often they will go to the in laws?

Oh, that's such a tough question. It's not okay. But it's also not okay. I would say, like, yeah, I would say yes. Like at a high level. Yes, you could set any boundary that you want. Now it's another question of whether your partner is going to be on board with that. Like, okay, yeah, I can do a relationship for the rest of my life with someone that is unwilling to see my family.

Well, no, he'll go one time or one.

I mean, I think you might have to judge for yourself. Okay. Yeah, this is really hard for me. Am I willing to do life like this with this person who is only able to do one a month and one a year? One a year. Sorry, one a month is only able to do one a year?

Well, actually, no, it's two times a year. He says, I'll go home to visit your parents one time a year. You convince your family to travel somewhere else and we can all celebrate together.

I'm guessing that there's some. I'm guessing that that's tricky though. Like, I'm guessing that that's one of those. He's saying, oh, yeah, if we go to Europe, we can go do a Euro trip, blah, blah, blah, knowing full well that they can't afford to do that. I think that there might be. There might be a power or money imbalance going on here.

I think he's saying, I'll spend time with your family two times a year.

Oh, yeah, No, I hear that if.

You want to spend more time with your family, then you go alone.

Yeah, yeah, he's saying two times a year. But he's saying one of those two times is something that might be inaccessible to them. Like, I'm going to invite them, but knowing full well that they can't afford it or are likely to not do that. It's not their vibe or whatever. I think that that's.

They're actually doing it the two times a year.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's so.

It's really tricky.

So. It's so tricky. I mean, it's four hours away. It's not that far. That's also pretty far.

You know, it's like the perfect amount of.

And I, Yeah, I think that it is. It is not fair to be like, every single time I go to visit my family, you have to come, you have to support.

Yeah, I get it. Like, of course I get, of course this person's like, yeah, I'd love to have you there. I'd love to have you be supportive. That makes sense. You're allowed to want that. But I, I also think it's fair for a partner to draw some boundaries around how often they want to spend with family and like two times a year. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I mean, I'd be bummed if you, if you said this to me. I'd for sure be bummed. But my parents live five minutes away, so it's a little bit different. Like I'd be bummed. But I, yeah, I'm, I'm just wrestling with the, the central nugget of what is it like to draw boundaries around how much time you'll spend with your in laws? And I don't know.

Yeah, it's fine, it's fine to do that. It's not fine to be like, it grosses me out, like where they live or.

Yeah, I mean we, we need to know more details about the discomfort.

Yeah, we need to understand that. But I do think that this just kind of gets at, in when we get into relationships and there are big differences in thing, in, in beliefs that we have, differences in family, differences in, you know, whether we want kids, differences in sort of like, like financial experience or, or whatever. We gotta think about, can I bridge this gap long term? Are we gonna be able to reconcile these different ideas or whatever. And I think very often we get into relationships with this like, love will conquer all mentality where it's like, oh yeah, well, if we truly love each other, then yeah. The fact that, you know, we come from very different means and have totally different experiences and our families look totally different. They live in very different places, they do very different things, like, it's not going to matter. And that's a really like, nice romantic way to look at things. And the reality is, is that like our, our worldviews are important and you have to decide, can I live with this? And I think that you might be getting from him some honesty. This is what he is willing to do. This is what he's willing to give to your family. Are you willing to take that or not?

Yeah. I mean, ultimately the question that this person is asking is, am I the asshole for having the expectation that my partner accompany me and support me on visits to my family? No, you're not. That's a totally reasonable desire to have in a relationship. I want a partner who, who shows up for me in those moments, who accompanies me that's reasonable to have. And it sounds like your partner's just not that person, though. And I do think that it's reasonable for your partner to have some boundaries around what he feels comfortable doing. So I think this is ultimately, like, just bringing up a bigger question of. I don't think necessarily either one of you is being an asshole, but are your desires around what partnership looks like? Are they truly compatible?

Yeah.

But ultimately also, like, he's saying, I'll spend two times a year with them. This person is saying, I only go visit them three times a year. So we're really only talking about, like. Like one visit of difference.

Yeah, I'm. It's unclear what we're actually talking about here.

Maybe get over it a little bit. Just get over it, like the person said earlier. But also maybe your partner's an. If they just don't want to be in a trailer park.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, let's bring her on home with this one. I found out that my parents gave my brother a down payment for a home for Christmas last year. I got a 200 sweater. They said it's because I make a lot more money than my brother and already have a home. That's true, but they. But still, am I the asshole for being upset about this talking about money stuff? Yowza. I want to know how much the down payment was, but.

Yeah, that could really vary.

And the terms of them making this down payment as well, I'm assuming it.

Was just a gift, not a. Like, we'll make it for you, but you have to pay us back.

Yeah, well, I mean, we have kind of talked about gifting and expectations and whatnot. And that. That one is. That one is. I think this one is so tricky. We'll get into this probably later. But what I'm thinking is, like, it's not all fun and games. It's not like, oh, yeah, cool, you gave me a hundred thousand dollars out of the goodness of your heart or 50. You know, I don't. I'm making up. Totally making up numbers. But, like, even if it's.

Even if it's 20,000.

Yeah. Even if it's $10,000, like, that's a significant amount of money, and that often carries weight. Even if they say it's a gift or whatever, like, there could be other stuff going on. So let's get into it.

Yeah. It's like the adult part of me, you know, we just spend all this time talking about, like, gift giving doesn't have to be reciprocal, and it doesn't have to be fair. And it's like the adult part of me is like. Like, we don't need to, you know, sit down with our calculators and make sure we're spending the exact right amount of. Same amount of money, like, on each sibling and everything's fair. And.

Except that's what your parents did for many, many years. And even beyond that, when I was in the family, I would get cash sometimes because I would get the difference. It would, you know, day after Christmas, I. They would be like, oh, $30 for you. Cause like, Jonathan got a little more. Like, this is so unnecessary.

So, yes, the adult part of my brain says it doesn't have to be fair, but there a different little part of my brain that grew up with my parents doing that.

A lot of equity in your family. A lot of sibling equity.

It's so funny because one of my mom's like, mom mantras is life's not fair. Like, she told us that over and over and life is not fair.

And she. But she tried to make a huge effort to make it as fair as possible for you guys.

But okay, the difference between $200 and a down payment for a home, that's a. A big difference. So, like, I totally get it that, you know, for this person, the down payment for the home wouldn't be as impactful. As for the brother, there's a difference in, you know, how much money they make. But still, that's such a big difference. I'd be upset if I was in that scenario and my siblings were getting a down payment for a home and I was getting a sweater. I'd be. I'd be hurt even if I didn't need the money. It. I don't. It's. It's just a big difference. I'd feel. I'd feel some feelings and I'd feel like an. For feeling some feelings because I don't want to feel like I'm. I don't feel entitled to my parents money. Like they. That's their money. They get to spend it however they want. It's not. They don't need to spend their money completely equally on me and my siblings. And I'm in the same sort of situation. Like, my siblings and I have very different financial situations. You have a very different financial situation from your sibling too. So, like, I get it from that perspective, but I'd be feeling some feelings and feeling guilty about feeling some feelings if I was this person. I don't think anybody's an asshole, though. Like, you're not an asshole. For feeling like, ooh, that feels different. I don't think you're an asshole. You'd be an asshole if you're like, you need to give me $100,000 too. But I think you're just registering like. Like, it just feels a little bit uncomfortable. And I don't think your parents are. For wanting to help out your brother. Like, that's really kind and generous of them.

Yeah, absolutely. It's tricky. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. I think it's fair. I think it's fair to say something to them, but not from the perspective of, I can't believe you did that, or that was messed up, or you owe me. I think it's fair to say, hey, I'm grappling with some feelings about this. I know. And you can literally walk it through with them. Like, I know in, you know, on one side that my brother really needs this. We have very different financial situations. We already have a house. We've come. We're. We're comfortably paying it off, or we've paid, you know, whatever. Like, you know, so we have different needs. We're in different situations. And that's so generous. And, you know, I'm finding myself, like, grappling with the disparity in. In that. And, you know, I can recognize that this is definitely, like a sibling thing coming up. Yeah. And I, like, don't really know what. What to do with that. I think that's a fair thing to talk about. If you say something like that, you're not setting an expectation of, you guys have to fix this. They might give you more information about what went in. There might be. I mean, this is what I was getting at. There might be all kinds of things going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of, where they made that gift for Christmas. But, like, there's a lot more behind that. That, like, you know, maybe your parents are, like, co. Signing the mortgage and, like, are taking on some of that risk. Maybe they are. You know, who knows? Like, your. Maybe your brother's on the hook for some. Some other things. Like, you know, it's not. It's not simple to take a big chunk of money from someone, even your parents, you know, that that carries a lot of emotional weight, and you don't have to carry that. I mean, you're carrying your own discomfort now of like, hey, that doesn't feel totally fair, and that's fine. What can come up for a lot of people is you told. You just jumped to the assumption that, like, oh, your brother feels like, he won the lottery and he's so happy and, like, has no guilt or shame or anything.

True. Yeah. This could be. This could feel really tough for the brother. And I think that my parents have to.

I think.

I don't think so, though. I think he's like, yes, down payment from my home.

Well, it's probably a relief, but it's also probably.

No, I know all kinds of other things for sure.

I. I can't.

Money brings up a lot.

Yeah. Money. Money brings up up a lot. Yeah. And I mean, that's just something always to be working. Working through is, you know, those, Those money things.

Oh, I'm so torn on this one. Maybe we need to let you guys weigh in. Come on over to Instagram. Vanessa and Xander, tell us what you think.

I mean, this from a philosophical perspective, this is such a tricky one because it's like, okay, so if your perspective is that, well, it's. We're siblings, and so it should be fair, and so if they're going to give X dollars to him, then somehow I should get X dollars. Or what you're really saying is you shouldn't have done that because you, you, you know, you're not going to give that much money to both people, so you shouldn't have given, you know, your son a down payment to be able to get this home, because that wouldn't be fair. Then, you know, we extend that outward. Like, you know, they're like, yeah, like, should we have zero government assistance for things? Should we have, you know, should. Should every single thing that happens, like, in our country or in our community be totally fair? Every single person is getting the exact same amount of money or the exact same amount of value out of something. Like, it just. Life doesn't work that way. Life isn't fair. Like your mom rightly said, life is not fair. Different people need different things, and sometimes different people are going to get different things. I don't think anyone is the asshole here. I think that you need to just give yourself permission to have some feelings about this and maybe even talk it through with them just, Just to see, you know, what they. What they say about that. Not like, in a quite like, a challenging way, like, how. How could you have possibly done this? Justify yourselves. But just like, just like, yeah, I'm. I'm grappling with this as, As a sibling.

I don't know if I could even bring that up to my parents. I'd feel like such a jerk being like, you gave my sister so much money, but you bought me a $200 sweater. And I feel like such a brat bringing that up. Which is tough because our advice, in 99.9% of circumstances, like, have a conversation about it. It's tough to imagine how to bring that up without.

Well, yes, if you do that, you have to accept that, yes, this is somewhat bratty. I mean, own it. I would say, hey, I feel really weird. I feel really bratty feeling this way at all and saying this, and yet it's still here. If you're like, oh, I couldn't say anything because it's so bratty, then you are invalidating, like, your own feelings. You're just holding them in. It's. You're not actually processing those feelings appropriately. So as hard as it is, I think that ironically, I think if you owned that, you might actually stop feeling that way pretty quickly.

Interesting.

So that's why I'm suggesting having that conversation. But, yeah, having that conversation does require you to be like, yeah, this is kind of bratty. And I kind of feel like an asshole saying this, and yet I can't stop thinking about it. So I wanted to talk about it because I know the quickest way through challenging things is to face them head on. So here I am doing this. It's uncomfortable, but I just, you know, want to be able to share what that experience is for me. Because your parents might not be aware. Your parents, you know, just like, you might feel like a brat. Your parents might have been like, oh, yeah, I'm sure that they thought this through before. I'm sure they were like, oh, my God, like, what is this going to be like for, you know, the other sibling? Like, what's this going to be like for them? And, you know, they might have been like, oh, well, yeah, they're. They're totally going to understand. They might have made. They may have made a poor assumption about how you would feel about it. And so I think that talk, you know, talking to them about it at least gives them all the information that they need in order to figure out how to proceed.

All right, well, let's wrap this one up, and let's finish up with our review of the week. So if you've never heard us talk about our review of the week, these reviews are so important to us because it is the best way to help pillow talks grow. So if you enjoy our episodes, if you've ever learned something from us, we would really appreciate you taking the time to leave us a review. And we do a little giveaway every week is our way of saying thank you so here's how it works. Go over to Apple Podcasts, Find the main Pillow Talks page, scroll to the bottom. You'll see the reviews there. Leave us a quick review.

Smash the five stars.

Yes, it really. I know it sounds so silly, but it genuinely does help. And we really need your help continuing to grow the podcast and being able to reach more couples in order for us to continue doing this. So please help us out. Leave a little review and we will automatically enter you into our Review of the Week giveaway every week going forward. So if you hear your review read in an episode, reach out to us@infomtherapy.com and you will get to choose one of our masterclasses to get absolutely for free. Just as our way of saying thank you for taking the time. Xander, do you want to read this week's review of the week for us?

Let's do it. If you are a human who likes other humans, you should listen.

Love it.

Great start. Okay, I've been following along with Vanessa and Xander for years. To be honest, I feel a little guilty that I've not written a podcast review until now. So here it is. Oh, don't feel guilty. You're doing it now, and that's awesome. Vanessa and Xander are incredible. Vanessa has this wonderful, warm, disarming way of talking about topics that can be very challenging for couples and humans in general. It has been so fun to watch the podcast grow with the addition of Xander. Xander, you rock. I feel like you don't give yourself enough credit. I literally tell my friends that if you are a human who likes other humans, regardless of sex, gender, relationship, status, you should listen to this podcast. The topics of their podcast truly stretch the gambit. Is that a real saying? Vanessa, I'm jumping in here. It's not part of the review. No, I do not think stretch the gambit, but I love it.

Isn't it run the gambit, Run the gamut. Gamut, not gambit.

I got it. I don't even know.

Gamut means like a wide array.

Yeah, it does.

Gamut of toys. But gambit means like a game.

Yeah, like Queen's gambit. Queen's gambit. Run the gamut. Yeah, run the gamut.

I need to look up what is a gambit. Oh, no, a gambit is a type of chess opening move. That's what the Queen's Gambit. It's literally just about chess.

No, no, but people use it like. Oh, the Whatever. Gambit. Like it's a ploy or a trick or whatever.

Oh, gambit. A lexical item or unit. Got it. Okay.

Sure, sure. Okay.

So. No, that's not a saying.

It's not a saying.

I love you for saying that.

Yeah.

Wait, I know. Sorry, we have to do a quick little aside so this person is clearly a listener. Because you've heard me. Oh, my God. I can't even say this. You've heard me mess up so many idioms.

They've heard you Malafore. Constantly.

Malafor, yes. But we were just with my mom last night, and she did a truly spectacular one.

It's obvious where you got it from.

Yeah, it's 100% from her. She said, mark my world. We were like, no, mom, I think. Do you mean, like, mark my words? She's like, no, no, it's mark my world. She was really convinced, but the context.

That she said it marked my words.

Wouldn'T mark the world.

Yeah, like, mark. Mark my words wouldn't have made sense in the context she was saying it in. It was like, what? What are you even saying?

It was some other phrase with, like, something. The world.

World.

I. Now I'm totally forgetting it, but I.

Think it was marking world. It was confusing.

Yeah, it was so funny. I'm like, okay. It's really genetic. Anyways, continue.

All right. From extremely personal and serious topics about why they have chosen not to have children, from extremely silly and fun topics and everything in between, the podcast can make you laugh, cry, and see things in a different light. I heard your recent episode that you're not feeling as connected to your podcast listeners, which is what prompted me to write this review. Please don't stop. You guys are doing amazing work, and you are touching more lives than you probably realize. Keep it up. We will keep listening. The way that you both show up authentically and vulnerably does not go unnoticed. Heart.

I was literally just thinking that as you were reading that. I was like, this was the exact kind of review that I needed to read. If you don't know what we're talking about, they're referring to episode 181, a brutally honest Relationship Check in, where we talked about some of our just challenging feelings we've been going through with this podcast. But hearing stuff like this, this, like, really makes me want to keep going. So thank you so much to this reviewer that it really means the world to us, being able to get that kind of message.

Yeah.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about ultimatums.

Sa.