Episode 188: Is Your Ultimatum Going To Work?

Ultimatums set you against each other. If you don't do this, I'm gonna do that. When the reality is that we should be viewing relationships as though we are a team. Like, it's you and me against our issues, not it's you and me against each other. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dud. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So for today's episode, we got inspired by watching the Netflix show the Ultimatum.

Which is a great show, but we were a little.

I'm great.

Great as in crazy.

Yeah.

Wow.

Entertaining. Guilty pleasure.

Guilty pleasure. Entertaining. I mean, it's not a great idea. I mean, the concept, like, okay, well, do I know. I think we have to say what the concept of the show is for people that are not sure what the ultimat is, what the hell we're talking about.

So basically, like, an ultimatum is telling somebody, if this doesn't happen, then I'm going to do something else. If X doesn't happen, I'm going to do Y.

If you don't A, I will do B. Yeah. And usually in relationships and ultimatum is like the. The I will do is like, I will break up with you. This is over if you don't change this, if you don't propose, if we don't get married, whatever.

You have a potential ultimatum going on on your lap right now.

I do. My dog Maggie is giving me an ultimatum of I better be able to be on your lap while you record this podcast.

No, I was thinking it was more like if she didn't stop licking her paws, you were going to make her get off your lap.

Oh, maybe. Because then you would just hear lick, lick, lick in the background.

Yeah. Probably could have a little bit of licking going on.

Okay, so that's what an ultimatum is.

We decided to turn to our audience and ask our audience, like, have you ever had an ultimatum in your relationship? Have you ever given one? Have you ever received one? And what happened? Like, how did it go? Did it end up working or not working? We were just curious to explore the topic of ultimatums.

Yeah. Especially in relationships. Because in the show the Ultimatum on Netflix. Spoiler alert. Generally, the ultimatums given are not very effective.

No. What are you talking about?

Wait.

Well, I feel like they're actually wildly effective.

Well, they end up being effective, I feel like, in the short term, and then often by the time the reunion comes around, like, things have fallen apart.

Well, I don't think we want to give too many spoilers in case people are still watching this season, but I will say, historically, over the course of the show, it has actually ended up being very effective.

Okay.

I wouldn't say healthy or, like, what should happen, but most of the couples end up staying together and deciding to get married.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, I guess. I guess you're right.

It has a weird track record.

I guess you're right. I guess you're right. Because I kind of have this. I have this, like, secret desire when I'm watching that show for, like, the relationships to just get totally blown up and, like, see what happens if the person's with someone else. But, you know, that's just my own guilty pleasure.

Okay, well, I wanted to start us off with one of the classic ultimatums, like the marriage ultimatum, which is what the show is all about.

Get married or break up.

Yeah. Here's what somebody wrote in. I gave the classic propose or I'm gone ultimatum in my first marriage.

Okay, key information first.

We had been together as a adults for five years, and despite my talking about a desire for marriage and starting a family since year one, I knew he had no plans and was nowhere close to proposing. There was always an excuse. We moved a few times for his job, the pandemic, we bought a house, etc. Finally, in our fifth summer together, I said that he needed to decide if he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me by the end of the year or we needed to separate so that I could seek out the life that I desired. He said he would. The holidays came and went, but no proposal. So on 1 7, I sat him down and said, okay, your non proposal is my answer. So I'm holding to my end and would like for us to separate. Two uncomfortable days later, he asked me to go with him to a jeweler. We picked out a ring, put it on my credit card, and then we were engaged. It felt yucky, but I got what I wanted.

Wow, this is just like a. This is such a perfect encapsulation of ultimatums in general. Like, yeah, it worked. I'm putting worked in quotes. You got what you wanted, but was that really what you wanted?

But at the same time, I also think this person was really clear about what they wanted out of life. It wasn't an ultimatum in the sense of like, I'm trying to manipulate you into doing something that you don't want to do. It was, hey, this is what I see for my life. And if it's not something that you're on board with, then I need to know so that I can go find that.

Oh, yeah, no, no, I agree. I feel like this was a, a healthy place to, to give an ultimatum.

And they were willing to actually follow through on it. Like, it, which to me like them saying, hey, okay, that was my answer. So I'm, I'm leaving. Like, for them to actually follow through on that, that shows me that they were really genuine in saying, this is about me. This is not about me trying to manipulate you into doing what I want. But this is what makes ultimatum so tricky is like, it's even in these good circumstances of somebody really sticking up for themselves and saying, like, hey, this is about me and what I want, it's still the end result. Winds up feeling really icky even when you do get what you want. I am so excited to tell you about one of today's sponsors, One Skin, because they have been the cure for me for dry winter skin. Oneskin is the first company to target skin skin aging at the cellular level with their proprietary OS1 peptide. This is a peptide that the four founders of OneSkin, who are all skin longevity scientists, developed after testing 900 other ingredients. And it's scientifically proven to switch off the aging dysfunctional cells that cause collagen breakdown and compromise the skin barrier. In fact, in lab and clinical studies, OS1 eye, OS1 face, and OS1 body were proven to increase barrier function in addition to improving the appearance in 100% of users. So whenever it turns winter, and let's be real, like we're talking California winter, I'm a real weather wimp. But my skin feels it. My skin gets really dry, red and irritated, especially on my cheeks, like right around my nose. Sometimes it can even crack. It just feels so uncomfortable and painful. But I've been using One Skin products for months since we first started testing them to be a podcast sponsor. And this is the first year that I am not getting that redness and irritation around my face. And we have a crazy deal for you today too. You can try One Skin's top sellers in their limited edition holiday bundle. It's 149 value for just $99. So this set includes OS1i, OS1 face and OS1 body travel sizes of these in an elegant bag. It's the perfect gift for anyone who wants healthier, more hydrated skin. And for a limited time, you can get 50, 15% off using code Pillow when you check out at Oneskin Co this holiday season. Invest in your skin's long term health because healthy aging is a gift. Founded and led by an all women team of skin longevity scientists, Oneskin is redefining the aging process with their proprietary OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to help skin look, feel and behave like its younger self. Get 15% off with Code Pillow at OneSkin Skin. That's 15% off OneSkin Co with Code Pillow. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support the podcast and let them know that we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with one skin. Your future self will thank you.

Yeah, and I mean, who knows if this is the reason why this marriage wasn't successful. We don't have any details on, on what happened here, but yeah, I mean, I think the challenge with the sort of like, get married or we break up ultimatum. And it seems like this followed a similar trend to what we see in the show, the Ultimatum, where like, very often the ultimatums end up winning out. The person who gives the ultimatum does end up getting the proposal, but you're going to end up with a very empty feeling inside because like one, you didn't get the experience that you really wanted, which was for this person to really like choose you and propose to you in a way that you know that, where it kind of feels like your desires for getting engaged are equivalent. Like you don't really know what their actual desire is because you've, you've basically put them under duress. You've said, I'm walking, I'm out of here. So it's like the result is you don't really know how the person actually feels because they basically just like folded and like two days later. Okay, let's go to the drawer. So it's like one, you don't get the experience that you wanted. You get the outcome, but you don't get the experience. I think that that's like a good way to put it. And so it's like you got to ask yourself, how are you gonna feel if you get the outcome that you want but not the actual experience? Is that gonna eat away at you? Yeah, eventually. And then also you're going to have the question eating away at you of like, did my partner really want to do this? Are they. Is there part of them that doesn't really actually want to be doing this, has doubts, but no longer feels safe expressing those doubts because they know now that I'm going to walk away if they do, it's no longer a safe topic. So just super, super tricky.

They're super complicated all around. So, Xander, what's your opinion on whether or not should issue an ultimatum about marriage?

Oh, that's such a tough question. I mean, in general, I think that it is probably one of the least effective long term ways to get what you want in that situation. I think it is a very. It's a highly effective short term strategy. It's very likely to. You know, an ultimate. An ultimatum is like, you know, you're basically trying to drive a wedge in, in an issue or in this person where it's either they go one direction or they go the other. And I think that in the short term, it's very easy to drive them towards you because they're going to be scared. They don't. They obviously want to be in a relationship with you because they're in a relationship with you right now. But like, they are worried about marriage or they don't. Are unsure about marriage. And so in the short term, you're likely to get what you want. But I feel like knowing that you were proposed to or you guys married under some type of duress, there's always going to be questions and I feel like there's always going to be uncertainty for both of you. Like, the person who received the ultimatum is going to have this uncertainty of, like, is this really what I wanted or did I just do this because I felt like I had to? And for the person giving, it's like, there's always going to be the uncertainty of like, does my partner really, truly want this? Can I really fully trust that, that this is what they honestly want? Plus maybe even the resentment of, like, okay, I got what I wanted, but it didn't feel good.

Yeah, I feel so torn about these two because I do think that it's important to stand up for yourself and for what you want. I think that. I think a big issue is like the word ultimatum and the approach ultimatum. Like, maybe the show has even made this worse. Like, I would never tell somebody. I would never give them advice to like, hey, go home and give your partner an ultimate ultimatum. Like, that's just bad that the idea of like, you know, the way that this person's describing it, like, this is what I want for My life, if this other person isn't on board with that, then I want to know so I can move on. Like, that feels super healthy and makes a lot of sense to me. I guess what I would advise is to have a lot of conversations about, you know, what it is that you want, the kind of relationship, the kind of future that you want with your partner, and make sure you guys are on the same page. I feel like, at least in the show, it just feels like there were so many couples that didn't talk about that until it was, you know, talking about it in the context of an ultimatum. So I think you want to talk about that earlier in the relationship, have more positive, more conversation based, you know, experiences with it rather than just like, here's what I want, yes or no, are you in and out or are you out? But yeah, I guess I come down to like even, even having to say, like, hey, if you don't propose to me by X date, then I'm leaving. I just don't think that's ultimately going to feel good for either person. For the reasons that you just laid out. Like, the person proposing is never gonna know, like, did I actually want this? Or I just felt pressured cause I was gonna lose my partner. The person who gets proposed to is like, did my partner actually want to do this? And you know, like the engagement that they ended up having, like, were super uncomfortable. We went to the jeweler and got a ring, put it on my credit card like that. Just, just. That's not the story they want to be telling for the rest of their lives. Right. So it's like, it's just not a good experience. But I do, I absolutely believe in walking away from a relationship if you feel like that person's not going to be able to give you what it is that you want.

Yeah, I mean, I think that ultimately, like you got. Ultimately, yeah, ultimately. Ultimately.

What is your ultimate opinion about ultimatum?

What's your ultimate ultimatum? Yeah, no, well, what I'm saying is ultimately it is very important in a relationship to be clear about what you want and to really own what you want. And I think that it's important to be in continuous conversation about that. I think where we get into a problem is when a partner is taken, like taken aback by an ultimatum or surprised by it. Like that's where problems occur. And I think at least, you know, I can't really speak for outside the US but culturally the way that we set up, you know, engagement, at least in like straight couples, is a bit problematic where it's like the expectation is that the man proposes to the woman and the woman doesn't really, you know, doesn't really like ask for it or anything. It's like they're just waiting, like, when's it going to happen? When's it going to happen? And so I think it's so easy in our society for marriage to not be talked about or to be really like, we talk around the topic like, oh, it would be so nice maybe sometime in the future rather than like really putting a stake in the ground. Like this is something that's really important to me. I want to be married by this age. Or I think, you know, we've been together for this long and it would be. I. It's really important for me to take the next step because ultimately, like I need to be with someone that is going to take this step with me.

We get into trouble when we think about it in the timeframes. Like, I need to be married by age.

Yeah, yeah, okay. But that was, maybe that was bad, tricky too. Maybe, maybe that, that was a bad example. But it's like, hey, we have been taking all of these steps. You know, we've moved in together, we've bought a house together, you know, our finances are intertwined, whatever. And it's like it feels like we are leading to this thing and that's really important to me. So I just think it's. If you are going to give an ultimatum, make sure that it's not coming out of nowhere. Make sure it's not a surprise to your partner. Make sure that you've really given it your all. Talking about what it is you want and what the stakes are for you before giving a crystal clear, like, if you don't do X by this date, I'm out.

Yeah, I just don't know if I would ever give the advice to give an ultimatum, even if it's like at that crucial juncture. But let's move on because we have so many other great stories that got sent in.

All right, so our next one, totally different topic. My husband was a softball coach and a mom of a player. Was too friendly too fast with him. My husband has lots of female friends and I've never been threatened by any of them. I just didn't like how quickly she was suddenly communicating with him. And it was not always just about softball. The straw that broke the camel's back was when I saw she was asking him advice about how her boyfriend had condoms in his car and what he thought about that. I finally issued an ultimatum and Said, I need you to back off the communication, and you can't meet up with her just the two of you. The friendship needs to cool off, if not go away altogether. He was upset at first because he didn't like me telling him who to be friends with. But I said, I have never asked you to do this with any other relationship you have with men or women. Really. And I'm saying, for me, I need you to cut this relationship because it makes me uncomfortable.

Okay, see, this is interesting. I wouldn't call this an ultimatum.

Yeah, I was gonna say that, too. I mean, unless it was a threat that she didn't say to us.

Yeah. If she said, like, I'm gonna, you know, leave you if you don't end this friendship with this woman. But I wonder if the, you know, the word ultimatum has entered more of our cultural lexicon because of this show, and now we're, like, describing more things that are ultimatums that aren't really ultimatums. So to me, this feels more like a request.

A very strongly worded request.

Yeah. So to me, this makes sense. So if I put myself in this woman's shoes, I might feel a little uncomfortable too. Like, she's saying, it's not an issue about, like, you know, he can't have female friends, or I don't want him talking to other women, which is, you know, very over the top. Like, this sounds like, yeah, I'm not threatened by other women. It's just there was something about this woman that is giving me a weird vibe. The, like, asking him advice about the boyfriend having condoms in his car. I just think she's asking, like, do you think my boyfriend's cheating? To me, that doesn't feel like a flirty, like, oh, do you like condoms? Do you want to use a condom with me?

Yeah, guess what? I have condoms in my car if you want to come in the car with me.

I don't think that was flirty, but I. I do think maybe that feels, like, a little too personal, a little too quickly.

Yeah. Like, why is she. Yeah, why is she asking him that versus other friends that are better friends?

Yeah, it's weird. There's definitely something a little weird about it.

I mean, no, that was happening. If I saw you chatting with someone that you didn't really know and I saw that, I would be concerned. I would have some feelings about that. I'd be like, ooh, this feels inappropriate to me.

Where I think this one goes a little off the rails is, like, it very quickly turned into, I issued an ultimatum. If it was me in that situation. I would have talked to you and said, hey, this woman is making me feel a little bit weird. Like, the vibes just feel a little strange. Can you try to be thoughtful about that? Or maybe, like, you know, and maybe we could have had a conversation about it where maybe you'd show me the text messages that she was sending, and maybe I would say, like, hey, maybe don't respond to that one. Or maybe I would ask you, like, not to respond to a certain message or something like that. But where it could kind of feel more collaborative. Like, you and I are a team together. There's somebody who's giving weird energy to our team. So, like, let's figure out together how we're gonna navigate it. But I don't think she needed to go straight for, like, cut off zero contact immediately.

Yeah, well, she did say the friendship needs to cool off, if not go away altogether.

Yeah. But it sounds like her first communication with him was, I'm giving you the ultimatum that you need to back off the communication.

Yeah. And so then, understandably, he does get upset at first because it does feel like she is literally telling him who he can and can't be friends with. So it's like, in this case, I think that you can circumvent that feeling. It's a very normal feeling for someone to have. Like, what? Like, you're telling me I can't be friends with someone? Like, I'm an adult, and also, like, I'm a softball coach. And this person, you know, I can't. Like, I can't cut this person out because they're literally the parent of someone on my team. So I can totally see that. Yeah. I do think that if there's more conversation early on about, hey, I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, and here's why. So it's like, hey, I want you to understand my perspective. Then if your partner is not able to understand your perspective, that's a different issue. And then you get to talk about that. Hey, it doesn't feel like you're able to recognize that I feel uncomfortable or you, like, why are you not able to understand this perspective? Why is my perspective not important to you? Rather than it's just, like, boundaries up.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that this could have been a softer conversation initially. And again, just, like, feeling like a team. To me, that feels like the root of probably a lot of these issues is ultimatums set you against each other. If you don't do this, I'm gonna do that. When the reality is that we should be viewing relationships as though we are a team. Like, it's you and me against our issues, not it's you and me against each other.

Yeah.

So if we can have conversations about, like, hey, this is something weird or feels off or I don't like, how do we handle this together as a team that just has a completely different vibe to it and it's going to be way more successful.

Yeah. The other downside of this approach is that you actually don't say what the outcome is. I assume you got what you wanted because you're saying at first he was upset. So I'm assuming that eventually he followed through with this. But you're also. You have to recognize that you are setting up a potentially bad situation for yourself here, or you're setting up an unhealthy potential dynamic within your relationship now where your husband will now think, okay, my wife is going to get super weird and uncomfortable if she sees me have any contact with, like, other women. And therefore you're creating a situation where your husband might be. Might be. I'm being really clear. Might be more inclined to, like, withhold information from you if they're. If, say he's speaking to another mom of someone in the softball league or somebody else where he's just like, oh, I gotta be really careful because my wife doesn't like this. So rather than him understanding, hey, why is this level of communication or friendship inappropriate and, like, him being on board with, yeah, you know what? I can totally understand how that doesn't feel good for you, and I don't want to do that. He's now just thinking, oh, my partner is super jealous and doesn't like this. And so, like, you've driven a wedge potentially and sort of like, you've opened the door maybe for him to withhold information from you in the future because he feels like, oh, well, she can't handle it or she's going to be unhappy about this, so it's better if I just keep this to myself. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, let's move on to our next one. My husband demanded sex at least once a week. Even if I was sick or there was zero emotional connection or life just happened, it became incredibly abusive to the point where I would dissociate or almost have an aversion to actually having sex with him. After about two years of that, I finally told him, I can't have sex with him right now. It doesn't feel safe, and we have to work on our emotional intimacy. He gave me the ultimatum that if I'M not having sex with him. He's not living in this house. We've been separated for 3.5 months now, and I can't imagine going back. So, Xander, can you give somebody an ultimatum about having sex with you a certain number of times?

Well, I mean, you absolutely can, but I think that this is a very likely outcome is it's gonna be real bad, real quick for both partners. The partner that is receiving the ultimatum like this. This is exactly what we always say is likely to happen when you demand sex or when you acquiesce to having sex that you don't want to have is you start dissociating. You start having an aversion to doing the thing. You're definitely not desiring it because you're associating it with a thing that you have to do that's not for you at all. It's for the other person. And then for the other person, like. Well, the interesting thing here is that it seems like the husband didn't really seem to care that he was getting real bad sex for two years, like, dissociated. And that's. I mean, that should just be a huge red flag for you that your husband didn't seem to notice or care. His desire for just getting it in was stronger than his desire to have, like, connected, healthy sex that was positive for both of you.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like we need to take a moment to just say I'm so sorry to the person who wrote this in. Like, to have to go through that for two years of pushing yourself to have sex that you didn't want to have. Like, of course you started dissociating and creating this really negative association with sex. And I'm so sorry that you went through that.

Yeah. And I mean. And yes, you're absolutely right that. That just. That is abuse. And it's, you know, it's one of those abusive situations that. Yeah. And unfortunately, you know, understandably and unfortunately, that wasn't something you were able to realize or recognize at first. And then in hindsight, you start to realize, oh, yeah, this is super abusive. And. And, yeah, it definitely is.

Okay, so that being said, I think 100% this is an abusive situation. This is a bad situation. I'm really glad this person of it. They're not going back. Like, this is just straight up black and white unhealthy. Right. That being said, I do want to talk about a more nuanced gray area around this one, which is like, how do we navigate our needs for sex within a relationship? Because we believe really strongly that sex is very important. And unfortunately, most of us think of it as just a physical act. Oh, it's just sex. It's not, you know, it's not as important as the other things in relationships, but we. We don't believe that. We think it's a really incredibly important way. And again, this is an extreme situation where, you know, this husband was just caring more about the physical act of it than the actual, like, emotional, intimate, vulnerable experience, which is gross and unhealthy. But we really think that it is a huge part of feeling, like, connected to your partner and intimate and close. So, again, like, I. I still don't believe that ultimatums are gonna be effective. I don't believe that giving your partner an ultimatum around sex, even if it's less intense and gross than in this specific situation, like, I don't think it's going to work out. But I do think it's valid to have, like, sexual needs and desires to want to connect with your partner sexually. And I think it's really. Not only is it okay, I think it's important for couples to talk about that openly. And it reminds me of an episode that we did a long time ago. It was episode 73. Do you ever owe sex to your partner? That's a great episode to go listen to if this is something that comes up in your relationship. If you're like, yeah, like, I want to be intimate with my partner, but they're always turning me down, or, you know, we just go long stretches of time without doing it. That's a great episode to listen to. Or if you've had, yeah, your partner talk to you about, like, hey, I want us to be having more sex. It's a really great one to go back and listen to. How many times can I say go back and listen to? So definitely check that one out. The spoiler alert on that one is, you don't ever owe anybody sex. It's not an obligation. It's not something that we're required to do just because we're in a relationship or just because we're married. But it is something that's important, and it is, like, necessary for all of us to work towards creating the time, space, and energy for that connection in our relationships.

I do also want to throw a bone to anybody here who's listening that is thinking like, well, yeah, I would like to be having sex X number of times a week or X number of times a month. I would encourage you. Rather than feeling like you need to say, I have to do it minimum this number of times. Focus instead on the things that go into both of you wanting to have sex. Like, sex is like the outcome of a lot of things in a relationship. Like are, are you feeling a baseline level of emotional connection? Are you, have you split up the mental load so that your partner has a space to even want to have sex with you?

Finding the time?

Yeah, are you finding the time? Are you having regular date nights? Like all of these things? So like, I would encourage you to focus on the more of those inputs. Like, okay, I, I really want to make sure that we're going on dates once a week or every other week. I really want to make sure that, you know, you're, you have some time to yourself so that you can disconnect from what you've been doing with the kids or, or whatever. I really want to support making that happen. And you can say, because our intimacy is really important and I recognize that, you know, intimacy has been really challenging for us. So I want to, I really want to create an environment where, where we can have more intimacy because that's really important to me. I'm missing, I'm missing the emotional and the physical connection between us. But rather than jumping straight to, hey, I need more physical connection. So you have to do this for me. X number of times, you know, a week without focusing on any of the other stuff that goes into it is not reasonable. So, yeah, start with those other things. If you are really struggling after expressing the importance of those other things with your partner, then you can have a much more serious conversation of, hey, this is a really important need for me. I'm not sure how to be in a long term relationship, you know, where this isn't a part of it. So like, you know, what can we do about this?

Yeah, I mean, I just think that focusing on the frequency never works out because ultimately like, like having sex one time per week, that's not what feels good. It's like having sex that feels connected and intimate and special and we've done all those things to like set it up to make it happen. That's what feels good. The actual number itself is not what feels good, but also like, yeah, going back to this specific story, he's also treating it like sex is something you give to me. Not sex is something that we create together. Sex is something that we work together as a team to make sure we have the right environment and circumstances for us to connect.

Yeah. I mean, you're basically saying, I don't give a shit about the quality. I Don't give a shit about you. And your pleasure is. I just need. I need this, like, regardless of the quality. It's like, literally, like I have an itch that needs to be scratched. It almost. It's kind of like. It makes me think of almost like, you know, the knock on, like. On, like, traffic cops or something, where it's like. Where it's like, oh, well, you have to give X number of speeding tickets or something. And so as you get to the end of the month when, like, the quota resets, then it's like, oh, shoot, I got to give out, like, 10 more speeding tickets. Like, all right. Like, you're one mile over the speed limit. Like, you're getting into it. It's like you just end up. I don't know this as I'm saying it made a lot of sense in my head as I'm saying it. I'm like. I'm, like, regretting.

Okay. What you didn't hear is, like, a couple minutes ago, Xander went off on a tangent where he was comparing set to pooping, and we had to cut that.

Wow. We're just throwing me under the bus. I was hoping we were gonna cut this. Sorry. To all the traffic cops out there.

We're leaving this both in.

You've been. Traffic cops have been real good to me lately. Knock on wood in that. I haven't had any interaction with them. I've been very. I've been. I've been a good driver, and I want it to stay that way. Okay. Don't come after me.

Traffic cops also, like, they're not there aren't just, like. Like, traffic cops. So we. It just.

Okay. I was gonna say chp, but that's. That's a California thing. California Highway Patrol. Well, because, I mean, like, actual cops, like, police officers aren't giving out speeding tickets. I don't think it's the highway patrol, but there's a different name in every state and go on to the right story. Good Lord. All right. Early in my relationship with my now husband, he gave me an ultimatum. If I wanted to continue a relationship with him, I needed some form of education. Maybe it sounds bad when said like this, but the backstory is that I was a single mother of two, having come out of an emotionally abusive relationship. We started our relationship in therapy. We both knew we weren't messing around and intended to get married and have children, so we wanted to give ourselves the best possible chance by starting out with the tools, especially with my past relationship being so toxic. He explained to me he Needed me to have an education of some kind because he never wanted to leave me feeling like I didn't have a choice where if something happened to him, I could take care of our children. Initially, this was difficult to hear. I felt like he viewed me as not good enough to be with him as is. Eventually, I agreed. I had to start with a GED because my childhood left me without a high school diploma. We are now seven years in, and that ultimatum has put me in the healthiest space I've ever been in. I have all the confidence in myself. I know if anything were to ever happen, I have options to take care of myself and my children. Financially, I haven't needed to use it because my husband's career covers all our finances. I stay home with the kids and do all things mom. We share household duties when we are both home, which is what both of us ultimately wanted. Although it was presented as an ultimatum, in the end it was a push to believe in myself.

This is tricky, tricky. I love this one. Okay. My issue is the same that I've said with all of these is like, I don't think this is necessarily an ultimatum, or I wouldn't use the phrase an ultimatum for this, but I actually think it was kind of cool for the husband to say, I want you to do this. Like, I want you to have this safety and this security. I love that they started the relationship in therapy, too, and, like, trying to figure out, like, the best way to go about it and set this relationship up. I mean, I. Like, I could see an argument for maybe it being, like, a little bit condescending or, like, feeling that way.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But, I mean, it turned out really positive. So it's hard. It's hard to knock on it, but.

But I think. Yeah, I think the intentions were there. It wasn't like, you know, I need you to go to an Ivy League school, or, like, I need you to, you know, have him be a manager or anything like that. It was like, I want you to feel secure and to know that you could always take care of yourself. Like, I. Yeah, I do see it more as a push for her to believe in herself and to develop that confidence than anything, like, condescending.

Yeah, I mean, the. The only tricky thing to me is. I mean, the. It's. It's hard to tell because it's just like, this person wrote this to us. He explained to me he needed me to have an education of some kind. I don't love. Like. Like, I need you to whatever I mean, I be like, hey, I, you know, the thing that is giving me pause about taking the next step with you is knowing that, like, if something were to happen that, you know, I'd be leaving you in a really challenging position. You know, like, you don't, you don't have your high school diploma and like any other, you know, advanced education after that and, you know, that would be, that would be really challenging. And, you know, if I were in a whatever, like, that, that would be hard and I wouldn't feel, I wouldn't feel comfortable, like, having a family with someone knowing that, like, I might be leaving them in that kind of position. So it could, you know, could have been very easily expressed. Not as a, like, I need you to have this type of education, but like, hey, this is, like, this is the thing that's giving me pause. I really want to take that next step. I want to marry you. I want to have a family with you. And, you know, and like, would you be open to pursuing this education?

Yeah. I think it could be more of a conversation and a teamwork approach rather than like, if you don't do this, I'm not going to be in the relationship. I don't know if he specifically said, if you don't get educated, I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to leave you or I'm not going to be in a relationship with you. But it just feels like the heart behind it, like it was in a really good place.

Yeah.

So I like this one and especially, like, I trust the way that she's describing it. She's, you know, she's being honest. Like, hey, it was hard to hear. It brought up some insecurity for me. But she's saying, like, ultimately what this felt like in the end was a push for me to believe in myself.

Yeah.

And I think that's cool.

Yay.

Okay, let's wrap it up with this last one.

This is the. I've only seen the title of this one. It's a doozy.

I told my long term boyfriend that we couldn't do butt stuff again. Again, they've done it. We couldn't do butt stuff again until he finally proposed. He was sad, but understood that that was now reserved for fiances only.

All right.

I love that we don't know how this one ended.

Yeah. Did he propose? Did it work?

Or are you just like in a relationship and he's just sad, like, looking at your butt every day thinking, like, that's fiance's only territory.

This one is hilarious.

What happened? You have to follow up with us.

This is hilarious. You know my gut reaction, my take on this. Super manipulative. But. But I give you a pat on the back because you know what? It's creative. It's creative and also, like, it's manipulative because it's fake. Like, it's obviously fake. You've already done this. It's not like you're saying, like. Like, it's not like, okay, you don't. Like, you don't propose. I'm out of here. It's like, we're gonna do this thing that we're gonna take away this thing arbitrarily.

Yeah.

That we've already done. Presumably, we both enjoy. And we're not gonna do it because now I've decided that's for fiances only. Like, it's so arbitrary. But also. But. But I'm totally okay with this because the thing that you took away, it's like, it's not actually. Like, you're not really putting him in duress. Like, it's not like, oh, my God.

I'm gonna leave you or anything.

Yeah. It's not like you said, like, yeah, you're never gonna get to come again.

Or, fiance coming is for husbands only.

Yeah. Or, you know, and you didn't play on his, like, fears or insecurities. Like, I'm gonna leave you. You're gonna be alone if. If you don't do this, so. Because, yeah. I mean, I think. I think our knock on ultimatums, especially the, like, married or I'm out, is that it really puts someone under duress, and they're. I mean, I'm guessing that maybe this put him under some amount of duress. I assume you chose this as the consequence because you knew that he really likes butts. Like, let's be real. Let's be real. Like, he must really want that. And you knew that, and that's why I said, it's manipulative.

It's very manipulative. And it's very arbitrary.

Manipulative. Arbitrary, but, you know, it's fair. If you're gonna do an ultimatum to get married, I like this as the consequence. I like this because it's like. It's kind of funny, but it's also like, bro, sack up. Let's do it.

Okay, well, that is the end of our ultimatums. We have a whole bunch more that we could go through. So we'd love to know if you like the. This topic. The ultimatum show might be over, but we could keep going with the ultimatums. So let us know. Come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. And let us know if you want to see a part two of the Ultimatums. All right, it is time for our review of the week. If you have never heard us talk about the review of the week before, these reviews are so important. It is the only way that the podcast can grow and reach new couples, help more people. So we really rely on you taking 60 seconds of time to leave us a review. And if you've never done it before, because I'll be totally honest, I didn't understand the importance of reviews before. I never left a review before I had a podcast of my own. So here's how it works. You can only leave them on Apple Podcasts. So you have to go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom and you'll see reviews there. So you can just literally take 60 seconds, pop something into that box, tell people why they should listen to the episode, and then what we do is automatically enter you into a giveaway. So every week going you will be entered into this giveaway. And if you hear your review read in an episode, you can reach out to us@infom therapy.com and we will give you a free masterclass as our way of saying thank you for supporting the podcast. Okay, so here is this week's review of the week. A must listen podcast. I love this podcast. Vanessa and Xander are so insightful and fun to listen to. I've learned so much about an important but often taboo and misunderstood subject. It has not only changed my relationship with my body, but has normalized having these conversations. This is the sex ed we all needed in high school. Thank you both. And thank you so much for leaving that great review and for helping Pillow Talks grow.

Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we discuss whether or not your relationship can have a fresh start. Sam.