Episode 189: Can We Have A Fresh Start? Or Is It Too Late?

I have a kind of hot take on this one.

Oh, okay.

I don't. I don't like this. Like, I don't think.

I don't think that's a hot take. I don't think anybody likes it. There's nobody sitting here being like, mm, I don't know. I love what this guy's doing. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. It's officially 2025.

Is it though? It's.

It's not actually.

It's not for us, but it is for you.

We're recording this in 2024, but you'll. You'll be hearing it in 2025.

It feels so weird. It feels so inauthentic to say that, because it's.

I knew you were going to call me out on it. I was just going to continue because, you know, all podcasts record ahead of schedule. It's not like an unusual thing, but I knew you're going to call me out on it.

It just feels so funny because it really doesn't feel like we're that close to the end of the year, even though we are. But I think part of that is because you and I on kind of like a bucket list trip. We're leaving tomorrow. So, like, we're going on a whole trip. We're coming back. We have the holidays. We're going on another, like, one night trip to go to a wedding. We got a lot to do before the New Year's. And then it's new. Like, there's a lot before the New Year's. So it's hard for me. It's really hard for me to be like, it's New Year's, but it basically is. Let's pretend it is, but it is. And it's a new year. And with a new year come new.

Fresh starts a new you, a new year. So many people look at the New year as a time to, like, turn over a new leaf, start things fresh. So we thought, let's do an episode themed around this. So we went over to Instagram and our wonderful Community over at Vanessa and Zander. If you're not already a part of it, make 2025 the year you finally joined.

Yeah.

So we asked our Instagram community, are you wanting a fresh start for your relationship in 2025? And we asked them to share the details, like, what's going on? What's the history? What are your frustrations? What would your partner say about this?

What are your hopes, dreams and fears?

So we got some wild stories, just really heart wrenching, really complicated. And we thought that we'd go through these stories and give you our best advice on how to start fresh in 2025. If you. We think you can start fresh in 2025. It's definitely a really fascinating collection of stories here. So I'm excited to give our thoughts.

And we're gonna try to be as honest as we can. Not that we're ever not honest or dishonest, but, like, you know, I think that, you know, we wanna be really honest with you. Of, like, can you actually. Is this something you can have a fresh start from or for. For. But you have a fresh start for.

Something fresh start with fresh start, too?

I don't know, man.

I don't know.

I'm lost.

But I also want to make sure we give our caveat that we're just getting one small snippet of. In a lot of cases, these are years long stories. And of course, it's easy for us sitting all cozy in our bed to give our take here and, you know, say what we think should happen. So I just always want to acknowledge, like, it's very vulnerable to share these stories. I really appreciate people who are willing to share their stories with us and. And you know, we're gonna give you our best advice, but at the end of the day, take it with a grain of salt. If you're like, screw these guys, I completely disagree. That is totally fine. All we want is the best for you. Okay, Xander, why don't you read us the first one?

All right. My partner and I have been actively talking about marriage for almost three years. It's been a beautifully collaborative process. We both share the values that marriage and a public celebration is something we want, not religious. And with that, the proposal is really where that commitment starts. We have even shared that we both would like a proposal of our own. The opportunity to ask and be asked and feel equally celebrated.

That's super cute. I like that.

That is sweet.

I know you. That reminds me, actually. You asked me if several months ago when we were recording a different episode, you're like, I think you should propose to me.

I don't remember that, but I was about to put a vote in for that again right now.

Somebody recently DMed and was like, hey, I'm going back through old episodes, and I just wanted to know, did you ever propose to Xander?

Good question. She didn't. She didn't. I'm still waiting.

Maybe. Well, keep reading. Maybe we have something in common with this story.

Clock's ticking, babe. Oh, yeah. So my part, my friend sent this one in. Huh? All right, where were we with that? My partner, male, would really like to do it first, and I agree, he's been a little behind me to the big moments in our relationship. I said I love you first and waited a couple months for him to say it back. He's a loyal skeptic. And I'm a planner. Two years ago, around Christmas, he made a clear comment that 2023 would be our year to get engaged. 2023 came and went. We had a large conversation around why that communication was misleading for me. That sounds totally understandable to me. If you say 2023 is the year you're gonna get a proposal, and then you don't. Okay, all right. So it's now 2024, and still no proposal from him. We have gone ring shopping, talked finances, moved in together, all the things there's been several times I thought it was happening. Destination hikes, vacations, and we jokingly talk about it after. But I'm at a point where I've lost the glimmer of waiting because I've gotten disappointed so many times. I told him it's really important to me that it happens before the end of the year. He did not disagree with that. I'm going to come back to those. He did not disagree because it doesn't sound like he agreed. He did not disagree. Interesting word choice, but I'm just not holding out hope it will happen. I've asked why it's been three years, and he said he wants to do it on his own terms. I said, it is so hard when we talk about it actively and openly. Wedding, honeymoon, next chapters, but no proposal has happened. I know it would upset him if I proposed first and stole that thunder, but we feel stuck when it comes.

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This is.

This is really tricky. Like, you guys have done all the right things. Like, you've talked about it so openly. You've planned for it. And what confuses me about this one is that a lot of the common roadblocks that we hear about with people getting engaged, like, you guys have already addressed these. It's not a. Like, I, you know, I want to get married. And he's like, yeah, I want to, like, have you in my life, but, like, I'm not sure I'm ready for marriage. Like, he's saying, I want to propose.

Yeah. This isn't even a situation where it's like, we've never talked about it, but he keeps. He keeps, like, taking me on these big events and building it up. So, like, I assume that it's coming, but it's not, because I think that's a story that. That we hear so often where there hasn't been communication about it. There's an assumption that it's going to happen because the person keeps making these grand gestures, and then nothing happens. But this is.

This is like, they've gone ring shopping, they've talked finances. Like, those are two of the main things that come up, especially when we hear somebody say, like, I want to do it on my own terms. Like, a lot of men, you know, want to make sure they feel like they're financially in a good place, they're stable, they're, you know, worried about the ring, but it's like all the things have happened.

Yeah.

They're both seemingly in agreement. And he's made. Even made these declarations of, like, 20, 23 is the year, but he's still not doing it. I'd be so upset if I was in this position.

I would do.

And I'd be really confused, so.

And I would be really worried about what this would say about things in the future.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, if you're dragging your feet in this way about a big decision now, like, this is not the one and only big decision in your lives together. There are gonna be plenty of other ones. What's he gonna do around deciding to have kids or if you guys want to move somewhere or what you're gonna do with your money. Like, there's so many other decisions where, like, is this a pattern for him?

Yeah, I. I mean, God, I have a. I have a kind of hot take on this one.

Oh, okay.

I don't, I don't like this. Like, I, I don't think.

I don't think that's a hot take. I don't think anybody likes it. Nobody's sitting here being like, I don't. This guy's doing all right.

I'm just gonna come out and say, though, I don't. I don't think that this is the right. The right. The right guy for you. I don't. I really don't. Unless you feel comfortable leading in this area and acknowledging that you may be the one that, like, drives things forward. Like, okay, I'm gonna make sure we get married. I'm gonna make sure we do this. I'm gonna make sure we do that. And it's. I'm not saying that, like, the man should be leading that, but, like, to me, this feels like this is a sign that he struggles to make decisions and that you would end up basically driving all the decision making. And that is a recipe for disaster later in your relationship, especially if he doesn't totally agree with certain decisions that you were making. It's a recipe. This is how resentment builds and builds, and you end up with a massive blowout 10 years from now when he lets it slip that he actually didn't want to do X, Y, and Z. And he did it because you, you pushed him for it. So it's like, I mean, ultimately, I think both partners need to be able to lead in certain ways. But when it ends up all falling on one person's shoulders, especially, I mean, this is a big symbolic thing. The reality, rightly or wrongly, it's a big gesture, you know, the commitment of engagement in marriage. And yeah, I, I, I just.

Yeah, I mean, I want to understand what does. What is his hang up here. Like, all that we have is he wants it to happen on his own terms. But what does that mean? And you've had. So they said they've been talking about it for almost three years. You've had almost three years to do it on your terms. So if I was, you know, this person, like, it's so tough, too, because your options are you could just go ahead and propose first, which I think would feel shitty if you're like, he would be upset about that. So it's like, now you have this memory of this crappy proposal, and how.

Would you even know that if he's like, how would you even know that he's excited about that given that he hasn't done. He hasn't done it.

Your other option is you could give an ultimatum and say, like, hey, look, you've got six more months, three more months, whatever it is. And like, I'm just. I'm walking away at that point.

They already did, though, in a way.

They said I told him really important. But that's not like, I'm going to walk away if you don't. Yeah, that's real close to the ultimatum. Then that's like this cloud that's hanging over you of, like, I had to tell my partner I was going to walk away, like, to force him into proposing.

Yeah. It's like he's marrying me under duress.

Yeah. I guess I just. I would want to understand more, like, okay, look, this has been going on for so long. All that I've heard from you is that you want to do it on your own terms. I don't know what that means. And I'm feeling really scared at this point about, like, what's going on for us, why it's taking so long. When it seems to me like we've had all these great open conversations, it seems like we're on the same page. But I think I'm with you that at this point, it's bringing up big red flags for me of, is this really the kind of person, really the kind of partner that you want to be with long term? If this is how they treat big decisions, it's like they're doing all. They're doing all the things right on the surface, like you're talking about.

They're saying the right things about it.

Let's do the ring shopping, let's talk about finances. But then when it really comes down to it, he's not actually taking action.

So I have a suspicion as to what's actually going on for him. When he's saying, I want to do it on my own terms, I have a suspicion, a worrying suspicion about what's going on. My worry is that he does have some real significant reservations. Whether those are, like, explicit or sort of like subconscious. I worry that he does have some serious reservations, that maybe. I know it's tricky. You said that he's a loyal skeptic, so I. I imagine he has some, maybe some skepticism about commitment or marriage. But you said he's a loyal skeptic, so he might be kind of a bit of a people pleaser too. And so he's said all the right things. When you guys talk about marriage, I mean, I would be curious if you were really honest with yourself to the person writing in and you went back and thought about, okay, all these conversations that we've had where it seems like we're on the same page. Did he initiate those conversations or did I. Like, my worry is that there's part of him that really wants you and really wants to marry you. And there's part of him that's really skeptical or worried and doesn't want to yet, and that he's torn. Cause part of him is like, oh, my God, I can't believe I've gone along with all of this. I'm not totally sure. I've gotten myself into a predicament here. And him saying, I wanna do it on my terms is basically. Is, you know, feels selfish. Yeah. That's the part of him that's like, well, I don't really wanna do it yet. I wanna do it when I wanna do it. But he's already said all these things that imply that he does wanna do it or he's gonna do it. But then, yeah, it's like he hasn't been honest with himself. So I think that you guys, you could absolutely go to couples therapy and talk about this. You should. Or you could break up, or you go to couples therapy.

But I think options that I would consider.

But I think. I mean, this is where you got to get really honest with yourself is I think you have to at this point, unless he has already proposed by the time this episode comes out. Like, I do think that, in a way, the proposal that you are looking for is going to be ruined. Like, it is going to be tainted. You go to therapy and talk about it. You are not going to have that. Like, hey, he did what he said he was going to do, and we're both so excited about it. And he got to go first. There's always going to be a tinge of, okay, well, we went to therapy and then he did it. But did he do it under duress? He explained what was coming up for him. And, you know, I feel like I understand it, but there's always going to be this wonder, like, why did we have to do all that in order for this to happen? And so I think you have to ask yourself, are you okay with living the rest of your life knowing that those were the terms of your proposal? I think some people would be like, yeah, you know what? 10 years from now? I don't care. I don't care about That I don't care about, like, this fairy tale proposal thing, but some people will. And I think that it's important for you to be honest, because I don't want you to get 10 years down the line and be like. And then the resentment builds up like, that all this happened. I think that happens to so many couples. Do you convince yourself, yeah, I'm cool with this. I'm cool with this. But you're really not just like, maybe he's not really 100% all in on this. You know, you gotta be honest with yourself in the same way.

Oh, this is such a tough one. My heart goes out to you, but, yeah, I think I'm in agreement with you.

You.

All right, let's go on to the next one. Since I was a little girl, I had vaginal problems, such as pain or heavy itch. Recently they found out I have lichen sclerosis. That is an autoimmune disease where your body attacks itself. My body attacks my vagina. Great. Either way, I found an amazing therapist, and I'm doing super good. But when it comes to sex or intimacy, my partner is super ego. He doesn't want to do me. He, and I quote, said, I just want to fuck you like, you are a porn star without feelings and stuff. So, yeah, when I got pregnant, oh, Lord, it went really, really bad between us. He also had a drinking problem and smokes, and I don't do that stuff. Now I'm six months postpartum from a C section, and this man just barely helps, and I can't stand him, let alone when he touches me. So we don't do nothing. We don't hug, don't kiss, and don't have sex. Last time he tried and was for once romantic, but I was just turned off. So, yeah, we went through a lot of bad times, and I just don't know if we will ever recover because I'm annoyed by everything that he does.

Run.

Oof.

Time to go.

I would say this one is rough, man. Like, usually a lot of times we get the nuance of the story and you're like, oh, I can kind of see the partner's perspective. That's really complicated. This one is one of those rare occurrences for me that does not feel. Feel complicated. Like, just the fact of your partner saying, I just want to you like you're a porn star without feelings.

Like, yeah. Why? Why? Why does he want to be in a relationship?

I mean, like, that's fun every once in a while.

Yeah, if that's. If that's his perspective on his entire.

Sex life with somebody who's now the mother to your child. Like what? I. That's crazy. Why are you with this person?

Yeah. Okay, now throwing this person a bone. It sounds like they have. You said they had a drinking problem at someone. As someone who is sober? I, I, you know, I have a question. Does he have or had a drinking problem? Yeah, if he is still. If he is still drinking, he likely has a drinking problem, and that won't likely stop until he stops drinking. Doing that in the proper way can. Can elicit a real, like, honestly, like a psychic change in who somebody is and how they're able to show up in the world.

Wait, I want to clarify something, though. Like, the. What I've learned from you about addiction is that you always have a problem. There is no, like, oh, I was done with it. I'm over it. Like, you're still. He's still an addict, but it's just, is he in recovery? Is he sober versus is he, like, actively using?

Well, I mean, I was trying to be careful with my language because this person said had a drinking problem, didn't say, is an alcoholic.

I feel like a drinking problem.

I mean, I mean, I'm inferring. I'm inferring, but I'm also not trying to judge. I think it is absolutely possible that you can use a substance problematically, maybe not necessarily be full on addicted to it. There's plenty of people that stop problematic, you know, substance use and may continue to use other substances occasionally.

The only point I'm trying to make is that, like. Like, if he has ever struggled with addiction in the past, he should be actively involved in some sort of recovery process.

I mean, I'm not gonna say should.

No. The only point I'm trying to make here is that, like, if addiction or, you know, usage is something that he struggled with, he should be actively involved in some sort of, you know, recovery or sobriety. I think especially, like, yeah, if she's talking about he's just not a very good partner. Like, that is something that you would want to see from a partner. Like, there's no. We're not shaming or stigmatizing somebody for having issues with addiction. It is a disease. And we also, like, need our partners to be involved in their healing.

Yeah. Yeah. What I would say is that the likelihood of these other problems somehow resolving themselves while he is actively drinking or using anything in a problematic way is very slim to. Honestly, none. Like, the best chance, I think, that there is for some kind of like, real improvement in this because, you know, I don't know, you didn't talk about, like, why, you know, what you do love about him, why you guys are together, you know, that the good elements of your relationship, but assuming that you. You do really love this person, you want to be with them long term, I think that that really is the best chance for this person. Now, the thing is, is you can't get somebody else sober. Like, you need their. Their willingness and involvement in the process. So, you know, we don't have enough details to know what is exactly going on in that department. But, yeah, this just doesn't feel right to me.

Yeah, I mean, you're like, you're literally saying, I can't stand him, so why are you with him?

Yeah, I'm annoyed by everything he does.

Let's not taint 2025. Like, why spend some time with somebody that you can't stand?

And also setting aside any kind of alcoholism, addiction, whatever, setting all of that aside, this idea of, like, I would just want to fuck you like a porn star without feelings and stuff, that is not like a casual perspective that just changes, like, boom, on a whim. I think that's a very deep seated thing that, that if, you know, if that's what he truly wants and believes. I don't see any. I don't know why he would lie about that. Then. Like, that's something that's going to require a lot of therapy and work and understanding to really dismantle.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, this is, you know, I know. I just listened to your solo episode on porn today. You know, like, this stuff gets in really deep. Honestly, if he's saying, like, a porn star, like, obviously it has gotten in his head due to porn and, like, this is a hard thing to get out of your mind.

All right, let's leave that one short and sweet and move on to the next one.

My husband and I have been together since we were 17. We're 34 now, and he has struggled with addiction and mental health issues for a good chunk of that time. My one caveat before we got engaged was I needed to see he could hold down steady employment. He opted to go into the steel erection industry and started making more money than we ever thought possible.

Oh, is there a lot of money in steel erections?

Oh, man. We got married three years ago while he was in one of his best times. He's been sober for eight years. That's awesome. But he had a severe mental health crisis afterward and spent significant time in the hospital and Working out medications. This obviously impacted employment and he refused to apply for disability because in his mind he was not disabled. Well, cut to the last 14 months and he has had extremely little employment. Six weeks, though he was only partially at fault. His industry is extremely slow in our area right now and lots of people in his industry are struggling. I've been.

Oh, so the steel erection industry is not doing well?

It's an up and down industry, babe. Sorry. That was good, huh?

That was really good. And I'm sorry to all the people in the steel erection industry who might be struggling. That sounds really tough. It's just a really funny name for your industry.

Yep. I've been repeatedly saying that I do not want to be our sole source of income in our relationship, but it falls on deaf ears. Our sex life has been so greatly impacted by this. The stress and anxiety around finances and seem to be mine alone. And from his perspective, my frustration with our situation should be completely separate from our sex life and how much I love him and find him attractive. But to me, I can't have one without the other. He doesn't understand how the outside world of finances makes us feel like roommates and then affects our sex life. To him, they are separate buckets. He started picking up odd jobs and is set to go back to work in January, which is helping. But what about next time? Work is slow. I just don't know how to proceed. And if we can just start fresh with different expectations.

Oh, this is another really tough one. Straight back into the tough ones. Okay. The first thing that comes to mind for me is that he's had a really severe mental health crisis and I don't know how he's doing now. Right. Like, so that's a major thing. Like, if he's still struggling with his mental health, maybe it's not a crisis the way that it was, you know, when he was going through that especially difficult time. But if he's still struggling with his mental health, it makes a lot of sense that his employment is being affected as well. So that's the first thing I would turn to is like trying to figure out how is his mental health currently. I also am thinking about this, like, he's refused to apply for disability because in his mind he's not disabled. And like, obviously there's so much stigma around mental health, especially for men and mental health, like, a lot of people don't think of it as a disability. And that's why mental health challenges can be so difficult to overcome because we don't recognize, I mean, it's very similar with addiction, to be honest. Like, we don't see it as a, you know, a real health condition that deserves empathy and support. The same way, like, if somebody had cancer and, you know, was. Was unable to work, like, he might still have some shame. Coming up around applying for disability, it's very hard for most of us to ask for help, I think especially for men to ask for help, but probably less. Yeah, but a lot less. Like, people like, you had cancer, of course, like, yes, you should be on disability, you should be getting all the support. But we don't see mental health in the same way, even though it absolutely is. So I think that that's something that he needs to work through in therapy too. It's like recognizing your mental health is your health. Like, that matters.

Yeah. And I, I mean, I mean, when it comes to the disability thing, I also want to say, like, hell, yeah, you've been sober for eight years. I don't know if you. What you are involved in from a sobriety perspective. Like, if you are in an organization like AA or, or similar. I think this is a great thing to talk to your sponsor about, talk to your fellows in sobriety about, and, and just like, you know, hearing what other people have to say, because I think that it's so easy to be like, to keep this stuff to ourselves and then build up this whole story and let your pride get in the way of like, oh, no, I'm. This isn't a real thing, blah, blah, blah, where it's like, no, like, I mean, talk. Talk to other people. Talk to a sponsor or talk to whatever. Like, do whatever you need to do to, to just get some other people that are, you know, on your side and trying to, you know, trying. Trying to root for you, because I think that keeping it to yourself is just going to keep it a problem.

So let's go to the central issue, though. Like, the person who wrote this in is saying, like, I don't want to be the sole source of income in our relationship, and I do want to validate that. Like, that's a very valid desire to have, and that's a very valid need to express to your partner. You know, on the one hand, we can be totally compassionate about, yeah, the industry that they're in, you know, it's really struggling, and I can't imagine how challenging that must have been. I do want you to talk about men's relationships with jobs and providing. Like, I can't imagine what a fucking gut punch that must have been for him to Go from I'm making more money than I know what to do with to I cannot get work like that. It must be really, really challenging for him. And I also validate, you know, their partner saying, like, it feels really stressful and anxiety inducing for me to be the sole provider because you're feeling like you don't have a real partner in life. You're feeling like all the, you know, finances are a stress and a pressure in the vast majority of relationships. And to feel like you're the only one carrying all of that on your back is really, really challenging. So it totally makes sense to tell your partner, like, I need you to be looking for work, to be, you know, expanding your horizons. Maybe it's time to, you know, look into different field, go back to school. You know, there are a lot of different things that they could be doing, but it's this kind of like, I need you to do something. And it sounds like the husband is not willing to validate. It's like, well, shouldn't you, shouldn't you love me and be attracted to me separate from that? And I think that those are, those are separate things. Like, you can still love somebody and also say, I need you to do this, or I need this to happen in our lives. Those aren't mutually exclusive to me. So for him, if that's not how it works for him, like, he's saying, like, I don't get it, like those, those two things should be, you know, totally separate from me. That's fine if that's how he operates. But he also needs to respect that for his partner. That's not how they operate.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I, you know, I wonder if some of the. There might be some nuance in how you guys talk about this, that that could help where it's like, because I don't think that. To the person writing in, I don't think that what you're saying is, I need you 100% of the time to have an income. I think that sometimes when you have these conversations, it can feel like it's going to extremes to the other person, especially he's out of work, he's already embarrassed about that. And then you're talking about this and what he is hearing is, you need to always have a job. And immediately where his mind goes, well, that's not practical. Like, shouldn't you always. Shouldn't you love me for who I am? So I think that, you know, it's just, I. This is just a putting in a plug for continuing to make sure the conversations you have about this have the nuance of like, look, you know, this. It's a gray area. There's no, I don't have a. Like, okay, I need you to be employed 75% here. There's not like a cutoff, but like, you know, and it's not. The expectation is not 100%. But, you know, that there is, you know, some amount of, you know, I'm seeing you actively searching that, you know, you have some other, other training or something to fall back on in another situation. I mean, finally, the other, the other suggestion that I might make. I know, easy for me to say from where I'm sitting, but I do think, like, it's, you know, to the guy here, I mean, you gotta get honest with yourself. You know, if you are, if you know that you have like ongoing mental health struggles, you might want to ask yourself, is it a good idea for me to be in a, in a very up and down industry, up and down work, like, there's, there are a lot of industries that are not as up and down as that, where work is more consistent. And you know, I think you got to ask yourself, yeah, it's great when I'm making lots of money and I'm super busy, but knowing that, you know, mentally I have the, you know, the propensity for a lot of ups and downs, do I want to put myself, is it good for me psychologically to put myself into a work situation where I know that things will go up and down uncontrollably? So that's an important thing to ask yourself. And also, I mean, to the person writing in, if you are noticing about yourself, huh? I don't, you know, I really, I'm struggling. When they're out of work consistently, I think you gotta ask yourself, yeah, how do I feel about having a partner that's in an industry where this is necessarily going to happen consistently?

Wait, so can you speak a little bit more though, about like men's relationships with work and being the provider? Because this is something that came up in our own relationship too.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way that we have been socialized our whole lives is that even if there is an expectation now, and you know, when we see this portrayed in, you know, media and tv, movies, et cetera, that like that in most relationships that both partners earn income, there is still this idea that the man is the one that is either the sole or the main provider. And even if maybe you're not bringing in all the money that like you are providing you know, the house and the. You know, the food and whatever. You know, it's like that you. That you somehow provide more than the other person does. I think that's just kind of hardwired into us from a. There's both from an evolutionary perspective and a socialization perspective. And as much as we might feel like we believe this idea is bullshit, like, the reality is, is that, you know, we both are earning income, or the reality is my partner is more educated than me and makes more money or is more successful in whatever job. As much as we are on board with that, and I very much was and am. The reality is when you actually get into that situation, it can feel very different. And that's what happened with Vanessa and me. When I quit my job at Google. I was really burnt out, and I was trying to figure out what I really wanted to do for the rest of my life after that. And Vanessa very generously said, hey, let me cover you for a year or two if needed. Like, you covered me for two years when I was in grad school. Like, let me do this for you while you figure things out, just like you did for me. And I was like, great. That's so generous. I love you so much for that. That I. That felt so good. Like, oh, I'm gonna get some time off to really figure things out. It felt so good. And literally the day. Like, the day that it actually started, like, the job was gone, the income was gone, and I was faced with, okay, like, now you're kind of, you know, you're not doing anything. It was really, really hard for me. It was really hard for me, and it was hard for me to even talk about. And, you know, and I started, like. It started coming out of me in other ways, like, with the arguments and behavior that I would look back on and be like, where did that come from? And it was like, oh, it's like this part of me that's very uncomfortable in our relationship. So, yeah, I think that I can totally understand how for him, he wants to bury his head in the sand in some ways. Like, hey, I just want you. Like, just give me some space. Like, just love me unconditionally. And, like, don't, you know, don't pressure me. Because to talk about it or to actually, you know, to actively look for work and really put yourself out there does require the acknowledgement that, yeah, I don't have work. I'm struggling to find it. I might get rejected from a number of jobs, and I think it can be easier to bury your Head in the sand and just be like, oh, I'm just waiting until the easy thing comes back.

My guess is that this man is buried under a mountain of shame.

Oh, yeah.

So he has shame from the addiction that he's dealt with, shame from having the mental health crisis and breakdown, shame from losing his job, shame from losing his money, shame from not being able to find more work. It's just a mountain of shame. So I know for the person writing, it feels like I feel like I'm alone. I'm the only one carrying all this weight. He doesn't seem to care. He's not working hard. And I really don't think that's the case. I think that the husband is just paralyzed by shame. So I really highly recommend that the two of you get into couples therapy. I recommend that he get into therapy. I do totally think that this is salvageable. I just think you guys need a different way of talking about it with each other. And he needs some support in being able to get through this challenging period of time of his life. Okay, let's move on to our last one. During the pregnancy and birth of our son in 2021, my husband was not there for me and me not there for him. He was working three jobs. It was Covid. We gutted a house and renovated it. We didn't have a working shower.

Months.

Oh God, no counter space in the kitchen. We got married in July 2020 and we were pregnant by September. I was always told conceiving would be an issue, so we tried right away. Clearly not an issue. He and I were in the worst place we had ever been in 2021. Leading into 2022, I had terrifying depression. He didn't know how to handle it, and he shut down himself. We've spent the last three years working on ourselves and together to get to a better place. And we definitely are. He has gotten help for personal concerns, as have I. The issue that persists is that if there is a moment when I feel like he's not there for me, I sometimes shut down and panic. As a response to the past, my responses have significantly decreased. But there is still that feeling sometimes of hanging on. I would love to just snap my fingers and have my reactions go away. But that isn't reality. Our sex life was non existent during and after birth. May 2021, until May 2023, when I started reading romance books. That really activated something in me again. And my husband was grateful for the smut man.

Well, first of all, I mean, I just got a lot of validation to give you. Like, this was a. This was. This sounds like a really challenging thing to go through.

I mean, so many things.

Yeah, so many things.

Yeah. To get pregnant so quickly and then the birth and Covid three jobs and the reno. Also plug for don't do home renos when you're pregnant. We have so many friends who have.

Done this, almost all of them.

It's like a perverse nesting thing that happens.

It really is. Oh, it'll be done. It'll be done just in time.

Don't do it.

If you find yourself saying it'll be done just in time, I can guarantee you will not.

But that's so. I mean, I feel like we also have friends who just finished with a Renault, and we're talking about, like, they're like, we did not get a divorce, and that's a miracle. Like, renos are just hard. Being pregnant and having a baby is just hard. Don't do them at the same time.

Oh, my God.

You can avoid it.

We have been doing exterior work, work on our house for the last couple of months, and, like, people are not even needing to come into the house, and it's still, like, such a. Such a challenge. Like, we're both, you know, had both been more on edge and, you know, bickering with each other and. Oh, my God. So, yes, this is. I have so much compassion for you on. Well, I mean, I'm glad to say this after a number of these other ones that we've done. I mean, I think that what I want to say is you can absolutely have a fresh start from this. I really, truly believe that. And honestly, it sounds like you already are to some extent.

Three years of putting in, like, work. That's amazing.

It sounds like both of you are putting in the work. That it's not like one person driving the other to do it. That's awesome. That's how doing the work works, is when you both do it, when. When one person is pushing the other. And yes, sometimes one person needs a push, but if they are being pushed across the finish line, like, that's when it usually doesn't work because you can't get pushed across the finish line. You got to go across yourself. So that is all awesome. It sounds like what you're asking is, can I. These. These responses that you have had to moments where you're feeling triggered by this, like, you know, he's not there for me. Those are decreasing. It sounds like what you're asking is, like, can those go away? I don't know if it can ever fully go away, But I feel like you can continue to work on this and this. This can absolutely get a lot better.

Yeah, I. I completely agree with you. I have a really hopeful outlook for these two. Like, it seems like, yeah, you went through something exterior from yourselves. It was just incredibly challenging. You've both been committed to doing the work. Like, this is amazing. And it makes perfect sense that you're still having this shutdown, panic response to feeling like he's not there for you. And this is actually a good thing because it sounds like what happened previously is you had this. I don't know the right word for it, but it's like you let him not be there for you and you not be there for him for a stretch of years, and now you have this reflex that's kicking in that's like, oh, is that coming up again? I'm not going back there again. We're not doing this again. So I actually see this reaction. It's potentially a good thing. Maybe it's forcing you to jump in and say, hey, I'm getting that vibe again. Let's talk about this. Let's come up with a game plan. How do we, you know, what do we need from each other? Like, so I actually wonder if there's a way to reframe this and maybe be kind of grateful to you, to yourself, that some part of you is having this reaction. I know it doesn't feel good to feel shut down and panicky. So there are definitely ways to deal with that. Like, you can work with a therapist on, you know, what are those specific emotions that are coming up? How do you self soothe yourself? How do you identify, like, what you need from your partner? How do you communicate to him? Like, hey, I'm having that, that feeling again. This is what I need from you. Like, there are a lot of practical ways to navigate that feeling in the moment and make it, like, decrease in intensity. But I do think there's something interesting about looking at this as a sign of protection and actually a positive thing.

Yeah, I mean, I. I think that. I mean, this person calls out, shut down and panic. So, like, you know, basically closing down and fear. I mean, I think that, that you might want to work on the shutting down. Like, that's. That's not. Not going to be a pot. Like, that's not a positive thing.

But you're shutting down or panicking. But can you, like, reframe it in that moment of like, hey, something's coming up that's not feeling good. Let me make sure I talk to my partner, and we get ourselves back on the same track.

Yeah, but what I was going to say is that the fear part or the panic, like, I think that there is some value in that emotion. I think the goal should not be, like, I don't ever want to feel scared when I'm reminded of something, because the reality is, is that it's good that you're feeling that when you're reminded of something, you went through something really hard, like Vanessa said. And, you know, our brains, we have evolved so that our brains are really, really good at. At comparing. We compare what is happening in front of me. What do I see? Like, what is this thing that I see? What is this situation that is happening? And let me find the closest approximation to that in my past and then evaluate. And this is all happening in milliseconds inside of your head without you thinking about it. Let me find what emotion, what feeling was associated with that. What does that bring up for me? Because that's the best indicator of how I should respond in this moment. How I should react, how I should and respond. I mean, the reaction is sort of like the instinctual, like, what immediately happens. And the response is more like once you bring your higher reasoning into it. And like, okay, how do I want to take the information that I have and do something with? So I think that fear, if you think about it from that perspective, that is a good thing. That is your brain working in the way that it should. And it's you saying, yeah, I'm not going to settle for this. I don't want to have that in my life. And so it's a cue to you, oh, great, I'm having that fear or that panic. This is a good reminder to me that we need to. Or I need to do something. Let's take some action to connect. Let's take some action to do whatever it is that we need to do that we know gets us out of that.

All right, well, that wraps up our episode on Fresh Starts. We actually have four, five other stories that we just didn't have time to get to today. Xander and I, we just love getting into all the details and nuances. I always overestimate how much we can actually get through. So if you liked this topic, we can totally do another episode. We've got these stories loaded up. We've got a husband who can't ejaculate, another one who's confused about his sexuality. We have some BDSM and some mental load. So let us know if you're interested in those stories. And if you're not already, definitely come on over to Instagram and join our community there. We're Vanessa and Xander. That's Xander with an X. We'd love to hear what you thought about these stories that we went over. Do you agree with us? Do you? You disagree with us? Let us know all the things. And finally, let's wrap up with our review of the week so we have an ask to make of you. If you love the podcast, would you please support it by taking 60 seconds to write a quick review? Reviews are seriously the best way, honestly the only way for podcasts to grow. If people see that a podcast has a lot of reviews and a lot of positive reviews, they are much more likely to listen to it. Spotify and Apple are much more likely to feature it. So it really, really does help. So here's how you do it. Just go over to Apple Podcasts, find the Pillow Talks page, scroll to the bottom. You'll see the space to the right in the review really can take 60 seconds. And then what we do is we enter you automatically into a weekly giveaway. So if you hear your review read on an episode, you can reach out to us@infomtherapy.com and we will give you a free masterclass as our thank you for taking. So, Xander, why don't you read our review of the week?

All right, this one's simple. Brings me joy. I love it. Truly a listen for everyone. Whether you're single or in a relationship, you will certainly learn something new on every episode. Listening to Vanessa and Xander brings me so much joy and laughter. They also have wonderful dialogue about more complicated issues. I love their episode about being brutally honest in their relationship and business life, especially the conversation about being a people pleaser. We've been getting a lot of a lot of comments about that. This podcast brings me so much joy and I hope you give it a listen. I know you will love it. Thanks, Vanessa and Xander.

Oh, thank you for that review. All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we do another round of Is this Normal.

Sam.