EPISODE 203: Is This Cheating? Part 2

Okay, so here we go. Xander, does this count as cheating? My partner took pictures of my friends and family off of social media and used AI software to make news of their photos.

I'm curious about going to a sex club. Not to have an experience myself there or meet anyone, but just to observe and understand what the vibe is. It's something I want to experience by myself, but is it cheating to not tell my partner before I go?

He was searching the Internet to see if he could find girls he personally knew from his past on OnlyFans or similar sites. He said he liked the draw of knowing the naked girl on the screen.

Hmm. Okay. He never suspicious.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while keeping giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back today with round two of Is this cheating? We did round one a little while ago and we got so much response from that that we knew we had to come back with a part two.

It's a great topic and I was about to say it's a fun one to talk about. It's not a fun one to talk about. I think it's fun for us in that, like, there are some very real stories and there's some shit going on out there in relationship land and it's good for us to be able to get to the bottom of it and I think give some tough love that's in the direction of maybe you need to end this relationship or maybe not. Maybe there's some misunderstandings or some trust that needs to be built.

It's not a fun topic at all, but it's definitely a fascinating one. And I will say, the submissions that we got for this round versus the first time we talked about it, these ones were wild. There are some crazy scenarios here.

Yeah. Are they the J word?

The J word. What's the J word?

One of the words that you hate. There's some real. Like when you squeeze some. Squeeze some oranges.

Oh, juicy.

The real juicy.

I don't like the word juicy. It creeps me out a little bit. But they are juicy. And there's some really interesting stories that we're gonna get into. So as we did last time, the prompt was let us know what's going on in your relationship. That's leaving you wondering, like, does this count as cheating or not? Because obviously, you know somebody, if you're a partner, is physically having sex with another person. Yes, there's cheating, but there's a surprising amount.

Unless you're in an open relationship.

Yeah, correct. But there is also a surprising amount of gray area, and there's even some gray area that I did not even think about before.

So. And not only is there a surprising amount of gray area, there is a surprising, or I guess I should say not not so surprising to us, but there's a surprising amount of conversations that people have not had at the outset of relationships to understand what the actual bounds and rules are within their relationship. I think cheating is one of these interesting topics where we all kind of grow up thinking, like, oh, yeah, well, you know, when. When you see it or when you experience it, you know, But I think we very quickly find that everyone has different definitions of what it is.

And.

And when we don't talk about it, then you can't. You can't just expect that your partner thinks of cheating or thinks of kind of what is getting up to the line of cheating. Like, you can't assume that your idea and their idea is exactly the same.

Yeah. So this is a great episode to listen to with your partner. Like, listen to us read off the scenarios and then pause before we answer and the two of you answer and talk about, like, how would you, you know, what would you say? Does this count as cheating? Is it not? It's a great way to talk about your boundaries in relationship and make sure you guys are on the same page while also feeling kind of fun and entertaining. And I promise you, there are some stories in here that, like, Xander and I have not even talked about. Would this be a boundary crosser for us? Like, we've got a scenario.

We're gonna go hot, and are we gonna talk about it?

Yeah.

Live on the podcast. Okay, let's set. Let's. Let's create some boundaries.

So really, really good one to listen to with your partner.

But before we get into all that good juiciness, we gotta tell you about review of the week, because review of the week, we usually read a podcast review, but we've decided recently we are opening the floodgates. We are opening the doors to review of the week. So now it is podcast reviews. It is also reviews on our courses and guides. So if you want to Leave us a podcast review. We would love that. Scroll to the bottom of the Apple of the Pillow Talks podcast page on Apple Podcasts. Give us five stars and or don't give us five stars. We would prefer that don't leave us.

A review if you're not gonna give us five stars. But.

But leave. Yeah, leave. Leave us a couple sentences. Or if you've purchased one of our products or guides or courses or in our membership Deeper, feel free to DM us on Instagram. Just a quick little review. Tell us what you loved about that course, what it was like for you, what transformation you experienced, and if you hear yours read aloud on this podcast, then you win a masterclass.

And we're at Vanessa and Xander.

We are at Vanessa and Xander on Instagram. Xander with an X. DM us there. If this is your review, if you recognize this, then DM us on Instagram or email us at infomtherapy.com and we will hook you up. All right, this one is I did not feel confident initiating. Never even considered having a conversation about initiating. Lol. My husband was the one to usually initiate and his style was more let's hope this kiss leads to more. This course really made me stop and think about what I need and want and how to ask for it. I love the real examples. Makes it so much easier to borrow a phrase that someone else came up with and that resonates with you. I also enjoyed the deep dive on understanding your initiation style. Now we both feel like we have something tangible to use and we feel like so much more of a team.

Oh, such a great review. Thank you so much. We love hearing reviews like this and with this one, like I just want to normalize. So many couples struggle with initiation and poor initiation. It isn't just annoying, it can also lead to arguments, resentment, disconnection, not to mention a significant decrease in libido and attraction to your partner if you don't like the way they're initiating.

Oh yeah, yeah. This is not a Sweep it under the rug and hope it gets better. It's not going to get better. Not only will it not get better, it's going to make a lot of other things worse.

So that's why we made the course that this person is referring to, the Art of Initiation and it's one of the courses that we end up recommending the most for anybody experiencing low desire, lack of attraction. It's just such a good starting point. So if you want to get more yeses from your partner, build your confidence. If you want your partner to initiate in better ways. Then head on over to vmtherapy.com initiation or you can get access to it inside of Deeper our new membership along.

With all most of our other products too, which is a hell of a deal.

Yeah. And that's@vmtherapy.com so we will link both of those in the show. Notes. Do you wish a thrilling fantasy lived rent free in your head instead of your endless to do list? With Dipsea Stories, you can trade mundane thoughts for spicy narratives that will make you feel like you're living in a romance novel. Dipsea is the female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more. Created by women for the female gaze, this app is so cool. They have over 1000 spicy audiobooks all crafted by a team of professional writers and top tier narrators. You can find anything. Like there's literally something for everybody. There's rugged cowboys, the Scottish sailors, maybe a sexy rendition of Pride and Prejudice. The app is so easy to explore. It's got all your favorite genres. And new chapters are released every week. Right now. Pillow Talks listeners can get an extended 30 day free trial. So literally nothing to lose by trying it out. Just go to Dipsea store stories.compillow to start your free trial. That's D I P S A stories.compillow for 30 days of full access for free. Visit dipsystories.compillow okay, so let's get into it. And we're coming in hot and heavy with this first submission. This was something that I. I gasped out loud when I read this and I was like, oh, Xander and I have not talked about this in our relationship. I don't know what our boundaries are around this.

Yeah, well, let's see what this is. Because I, I. Vanessa has seen all of these in. In picking the ones for the episode, we intentionally did not show them to me so that I get to react in the moment.

Okay, so here we go. Xander, does this count as cheating? My partner took pictures of my friends and family off of social media and used AI software to make nudes of their photos. I found a folder of them on his laptop. Oh, wait, wait. Can you imagine? You're just like on your partner's laptop and then you find this folder and you open it up and it's like your mom nude. Or your dad nude.

No.

Or your best friend nude. I would die.

I would be, I would be, I would be horrified. I would be shocked. I would be appalled. I like there. I feel like there's like a cynical part of me that might laugh for like 10 seconds and then I would be absolutely horrified. And honestly, I don't.

Crazy.

I don't know that I would be able to come back from that. Maybe. I mean, that's like, I'd really need.

To understand how far they went. Like, did they do like grandpa?

I don't know. Why, why didn't you tell. Why didn't you tell us the details? Who?

We need to know exactly who. Okay, so now that we're over the, the shock, we have to answer the question. Does this count as cheating?

Oh, man, this is, this is.

Wait, wait, let's do a countdown. Let's do a 3, 2, 1. And we both say yes or no. Is it cheating? 3, 2, 1. Yes.

No, but. There's a big but. Like, I don't know if I would call it cheating, but I would call it real sketchy, gross. Like gross. Very highly questionable of this person's character type of behavior such that I would consider it similarly to cheating in terms of like a violation.

Huh.

Because here's the thing. I mean, like, you think we all think about, like at times, people naked. Like, we like our, our brains, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, at times we envision, we envision things like this. We can't turn that part of us off. So like, I think you think about stuff like this. It's like you can't, you can't say. I mean, sure, someone could say this, but it's impractical. You could. Like, if you ever think about somebody naked, you ever think about somebody else sexually, that's cheating on me. I don't think that's practical. Then again, like, so this is like you've done, you've. You violated someone. It's. I don't know. I mean, it's like if you, like, if you share nudes of your partner without their knowledge, I wouldn't say that's cheating. I would say that's super up and something else. Like there's another term for that. But like, it's not. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's cheating, but it's, it's equally bad, if not worse.

That's a strange comparison. No, I think to me, this, this definitely is creepy. It's unethical. It's a fucked up thing to do to people, especially people that you like, know and presumably care about. But for me, I would say it crosses the line into a kind of emotional cheating because you're actively trying to create something to be turned on by.

Beyond what your brain might naturally or involuntarily do.

Well, it's weird because I'm like, I don't think of. I don't think fantasizing counts as cheating. I think it's okay to like, so.

This was like assisted fantasizing.

There's something, I don't know, playing, just playing around with something in your brain or having a stray thought pop into your brain. Like, obviously, if you're actively fantasizing about being with another person, like, all the time, that I think counts as cheating. I think a random here and there. Like, I wonder what it would be like to be with so and so or like a little, you know, I don't think that is cheating. But there's just a. Like there's an activeness here. Or you're going to all this effort to create these photos to then, I mean, presumably, like, jack off to them.

Yeah, I was, I was gonna say, is this. I mean, at least you didn't catch him jacking off to them, but, like, almost certainly. Like, what, like, why else did he do it?

Yeah.

But. Okay, here's. Okay, I've been reflecting on this. Here's what I think. I think, okay, let's talk about our relationship. Now that we are talking about this, I would say. Yeah, this would feel like I would. Now that we've talked about it, consider this cheating. I think that's fair to say.

Yeah.

But having most people, 99.9% of people have never had this conversation because 99.9% of people have never thought about this idea until now. Because we knew it was possible. Yeah. Knew it was possible because it's like a new technology. Like, you know, we can't always know what is. What crazy things are going to become available to us and how we can tweak them to become sexual. Right. Like, we can't ever know all of this. So if you haven't talked about it and you've never even considered it, I don't think it's fair to be like, oh, that's cheating. Like, having never had any. Never even knowing it was possible. But I would say now that we're talking about this, I. I would be fine being like, yeah, this, this crosses a line into, like, emotional infidelity. Sure.

Oh, I mean, there. I, I don't like that agree that argument, though, because there are so many other things that you could say, oh, well, we never talked about it, so therefore it wasn't cheating. Like, you can't say that.

Yeah. But what I am saying is I would probably. I. I would strongly consider ending Our relationship if I found this folder on your computer. Yeah, same whether it's cheating or not is what I'm saying. Like, it's a. It's an extreme violation is all I'm saying. Yeah. Now, calling it cheating or calling it something else. Like, what. What do they, like, like, what. What is the. What is the, like, criminal term for, like, when people are, like, sharing nudes or doing, like, thing. I'm revenge porn. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, it's not revenge. Yeah, not. Not revenge porn. But, you know, where it's like, you wouldn't be like, oh, well, it's not cheating, so therefore it's okay. It's like, no, it's a just. It's just different thing that's equally as bad. And I would consider this the same. If you've never talked about it, though, I think it's fair to be like, hey, to me, this would feel like cheating. And boom, all of a sudden, there it's cheating. It's emotional infidelity. It's cheating.

Yeah. I mean, I guess for me, the overarching issue is, like, your partner is a fucking creep. And that's worth seriously considering ending the relationship over. We don't even have to really go into the, like, is this cheating or not? But I would still say, to me, this feels like it's active enough and it's, like, sexual enough that it feels like a violation.

Oh, yeah.

I wouldn't, you know, if we've got the spectrum of cheating and, like, you know, we've got the lightest flirtation on one side and, like, you know, intercourse with another person or, you know, repeatedly and, like, it's. It's on this end. It's a low version of cheating, but.

It'S a high version of something else.

Creepiness, whatever.

Yeah. Okay, if you're listening, what do we call this? Like, that's what I want to know. What do you think? Like, what is the terminology for what type of. Like, I would say it's a sexual violation, but, like, what? I feel like there's a better name for this that we got to come up with, guys, because honestly, like, this is the future. As up as that kind of sounds, like, this is. This is the reality. There's going to be so many avenues. There's going to be so many crazy avenues with technology to whether it's assisted fantasizing or whatever. Like, it's. It's wild. Like, I almost don't even want to think about it because it's scary.

Technology and cheating. That'll be the Next episode, the next version of this cheating series. All right, why don't you read the next one?

All right. I'm curious about going to a sex club. Not to have an experience myself there or meet anyone, but just to observe and understand what the vibe is. It's something I want to experience by myself, but is it cheating to not tell my partner before I go? We don't care about each other watching porn, but is it different because it's in person? I wouldn't tell him before going to see a movie I want to see by myself. But is this different? If I told him about it, he'd want to join out of curiosity, not lack of trust. And I don't want to hurt his feelings by saying that it's just something I want to explore on my own. Whoo.

I know. These are good, right?

Wow. Wow. I got some qu. I mean, do we want to go straight into our snap judgment or, like, I got some. I got some questions.

Okay.

For this person, you got to turn.

It over to me to give my snap.

Yeah. Let's go, girl.

Okay. So my hot take is, I would say this is cheating if you go and don't tell your partner about it. I don't think there's anything wrong with this, though, if you just want to go to. But it's kind of. I kind of don't trust you entirely, though. You're like, I don't want to do anything. I just want to see what the vibe is.

Like.

Like, really? That's really all you want to do. So, you know, but what's interesting to me is, like, this person says, like, my partner wouldn't. It's not that there would be a trust issue. It's not like he'd say, well, I have to go with you because I don't trust that you could, you know, not do something there. So then I'm like, okay, if that's the case, then just fucking tell him and say, like, hey, it's just an experience that, like, I'd like to just try for my own at first. So if your partner. So it seems to me like the partner would not object to them going by themselves. But I'm like, but they might.

They might be insistent that, hey, I want to do this with you, because I also would like this.

I mean, I guess if they do have some sort of, like, interesting understanding here, like, I guess you could just say, I'd really like to check this out by myself first, and then maybe we can go together afterwards. Then again, I kind of come Back to the. Like, I'm not sure I fully trust you. Like, why is it that you want to go by yourself so bad and.

You don't want to go. You seemingly don't. You actively don't want to go with.

Your partner, don't want your partner to be there, which just like, what's up with that? Sets my little antenna off sense. Yeah, what's up with that?

Sexy spideys.

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to go to a sex club. I don't think there's anything wrong with just wanting to like observe and see what it's like and you know, not necessarily participate. Although there are some sex clubs that would not be okay with that. Like, they have kind of rules about, about the vibe. But yeah, I'm like, why, why wouldn't you want to go with your partner? It just seems, it seems a little off to me.

Yeah. Yeah.

What are your questions?

Well, that, that was my main question. Why don't you want to go with your partner? Yeah, like what is. I would really want to get to the bottom of what is coming up for you where you, you so badly. Don't you so badly want to go. You don't want to go with your partner. And in fact it seems like you want to go by yourself so bad that you are bending over backwards, tying yourself in knots, trying to find a way to justify going by yourself so that you can guarantee that you get to go by yourself. Because if you, it sounds like you have a great partner with that is like, like open minded and whatnot. And it's like. Because the simple, the very simple thing to do here would be literally go tell your partner this. Hey, like I've been fantasizing. It sounds really hot. Maybe I would like to go with you in the future. There's something about like I want to have this experience of just watching on my own that I would like love to fulfill that experience for myself. Would you be open to that? Right. And like there's a high likelihood your partner goes, okay, yeah. Hearing it like that. Yeah, like, and I, you know, not assuming we are going to go together. Sure, I'll let you do that. But like it would. It sounds super hot to go with you. I would love for you to feel comfortable with this, but there is a chance that your partner would say no. This person has obviously done that calculus in their head and it. I'm pro. I might be reading into this, but to me this sounds like you've convinced yourself that there's A good chance your partner will say no, maybe for good reason. I don't know. And you so badly do not want to actually be told that you can't go to know that it's off the table. You're bending over backwards trying to justify why you could go. So I think that that is. That's probably a bit problematic.

Would you count this as cheating if they go without telling their partner?

I would. I mean, I would call it, like, emotional infidelity. And so I guess it's like, you know, we're saying cheating is definitely actual, like, physical infidelity. And, you know, emotional infidelity is tricky because there's a whole range of. Of things there. But, yeah, I mean, it's. It's getting there. It's just. It's so hard. I don't know. Like, it's certainly emotional infidelity. Yeah, it's.

Emotional infidelity counts as infidelity.

Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, infidelity. But, yeah, cheating, infidelity. Are we saying those are interchangeable?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, then, yeah, we're really getting to the semantics here.

I. I think so. And I think the other thing I would say to this person is like, yeah, I get it. You guys don't care about each other watching porn. Sure. That is a totally valid agreement to have. But here's the thing. You guys have an agreement about that. It sounds like you have an explicit agreement. We are both okay with this. Therefore, we have talked about this and we are okay with it. Where you get into trouble is when you start to extrapolate.

Yeah.

Okay, so we talked about A. A is like B, so B is probably okay. Right. Like, it would be unreasonable for them to get upset with me. That's where things start to get tricky. So, you know, and. And, yeah, I. I would just say this whole thing of, like, I wouldn't tell him before going to see a movie I want by myself. Is this any different? It is.

This is completely.

This is completely different. There.

There's.

There. There's a sexual layer to this that doesn't exist. I mean, I guess you could argue, oh, well, I go see a radar movie with sex scenes, and, like, that's not a problem. But I mean, we kind of generally just socially. It's socially accepted that in the movies you're going to see sex and maybe a little bit of nudity, and it's not porn. So it's just a different thing. So, yeah, I think, you know, that porn argument is kind of. It's neither here nor there. It's it's problematic that you're trying to take that to justify one or two more steps down the road. But again, it just gets back to the importance of talking about all the things and not just one of the things. I think a lot of people have that porn conversation and then go, oh, okay, cool. So that must therefore mean that A is okay and C is not okay, but D is okay and E is, you know, I don't know. And that's where things get tricky and that's where the gray is.

Okay, here's our next story. Buckle up for this one. My husband and I went on a cruise for a band that we both love. He tried to kiss another girl that he met through the band's online community. Never told me about it until over a year later. Then I overheard him chatting online with the same girl, asking for inappropriate pictures. He tried to deny to me what I heard. Then he went to Vegas to see the same band and he said he didn't want me to go because he doesn't have as much fun when I go.

Rude.

Ended up eventually telling me he stayed in the same hotel room with the same girl after. I kept pushing for information because I felt like he was hiding something. He says nothing happened. He tells me she's just a friend and that he cares about her and he loves her and he can't stop contact with her. When I ask him to, he said he couldn't do that to her and disappoint or abandon her. Then he goes again to see a band for a two day festival, but makes it a four day weekend to get away with her. Tried to deny it until I confronted him saying I saw his calendar, that he was picking her up at the airport on Friday and dropping her off at the airport on Monday. He had no hotel charges for that weekend, but again denies that he stayed with her or that anything happened.

Oh my God, girl. Okay, yes, 100% he's cheating. Whether he cheated physically or not, it is 110% emotional infidelity at the very least, and almost certainly more physically. Who the fuck cares if he had sex with her or not? Like, this is just. Is repeated, it is willful, it is malicious, it is gaslighty, it is manipulative. If I didn't say that already, this is so bad.

And I will say, like, we got a lot of these submissions where I was reading them and I was like, is somebody really questioning this? Like, you're gaslighting yourself enough to the point where you're, you're. She took the Time to write this whole whole long message to us to get our take on whether or not this is cheating. And there were so many people like this. And I'm not trying to say that from, like, a mean or mocking place. Like, I just want people to believe in themselves and their experiences more. Like, she knows he's cheating. Yeah, she knows he's cheating. And it makes me sad that she had to, like, take the time and effort to type this out and wasn't sure and wanted to get our take.

Also, man, this guy is a freaking idiot. Like. Like, he's, like, not even trying very hard to hide this. It's like. It's like, I feel like if you are going to actively do this, like, either, like, you either have to be, like, so oblivious that you're just doing it in front of your partner's face, or you're, like, actually really going out of your way to hide it. But it's not like, this guy's just kind of in the. No, I'm not doing it. And I. But I'm like, kind of like, oh, there's no hotel charge, but there's an entry on my calendar saying I'm picking her up at the airport. Like, my God. It's like, he just seems. He's a lazy cheater.

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All right, let's move on. I have a male friend. We are both married and parents we met on the playground and we live close. We talk about our children, what we do on weekends, and other neutral stuff like home renovation. And he tells me what challenges he has with his wife and I tell him what challenges I have with my husband. And we give advice to each other. Nothing physical nor flirting. Is it cheating?

No.

No. I agree. Not at all.

No. Yeah, this is interesting. I'm assuming that this is a woman who was writing in about this.

I think so. I think that's why they're asking, is this cheating?

Because it's a. Yeah, it's.

It's like a, you know, opposite sex sex friendship.

Yeah. I think people get so worked up about opposite sex friendships and, you know, for straight people having an opposite sex friend. And I just really don't think that's a big deal at all. I think this is a really cute, sweet, beautiful friendship.

Both of them are getting a lot of value out of it, I think.

Yeah, like, she can give him maybe some insight into the female perspective. He can maybe give her some insight into the male perspective. Like they're, you know, it sounds like they're not violating like, any sort of boundaries. There's nothing inappropriate. It's literally just a friendship. Like the same way you would see two women talking at the playground or two men talking at the playground. Like, there's nothing different here.

Yeah. And honestly, I think even if they started talking about like, possibly even like, like challenges they have in the bedroom, I wouldn't even necessarily say that we're getting to that level yet where you start to cross the line. I think whether you're talking about sexual stuff or just relationship, purely relationship. Stuff or arguments or whatever. Where I think you cross the line is when you get into, oh well, like if we were together, I would never do that to you. Or like, oh, I, you know, I don't, your, your partner shouldn't do blah blah blah, like I, this, I, I, I think it's when you start kind of inserting yourself into their relationship or creating this idea of like, oh, well, if, if, if it were us, it would be this different way or this is how you do it. Once you start kind of making that jump to like, almost like opening the door for fantasizing about like you two being together. But when you're, if you're really just strictly keeping your conversation about like, oh, this is what's happening between my partner and me. This is an issue that we are having. Like, do you have any thoughts or advice on that for like how I handle this situation with my partner? I think that's totally, totally fine. Now it also starts to become a problem if perhaps you're going back to your partner. Let's just call this guy Dave. Randomly you go back to your partner. So Dave, Dave says that we should do blah blah blah. Or Dave says in his relationship he does xyz, that's not cheating. But if your partner goes, hey, it seems like you're talking about date. Like, like why do you keep bringing David to our relationship? Like, I'm not sure I feel very comfortable with that. That's when you start to get into like a boundary violation there. So I don't know. This person asked this question in a very open ended way. I'm curious if maybe there's more behind it. Like her partner is expressing some concern and she's sort of cherry picked. Like this is the situation. If it's just that situation, not cheating at all. But if your partner has expressed concern about this relationship repeatedly or feels like you're crossing the line, then we're getting into like boundary violation territory.

Yeah, but this is cute. It's sweet.

Yeah.

Keep up this friendship. Okay. In his frustration of our dry spell, he was searching the Internet to see if he could find girls he personally knew from his past on only fans or similar sites. He said he liked the draw of knowing the naked girl on the screen.

Okay. He never suspicious.

He never found anyone he knew in his quest.

God damn it. Oh, sorry, buddy. That's so sad. I was just hoping I find one of my old friends doing only fans.

There are so many people doing only fans. Like, you really think you could go, do you think this is for Real well.

No, no, honestly, I feel like it's like finding someone on Facebook. Like, it's. It's just like, you don't happen to have any of your friends that decided to do that?

It's not like you can go searching only fans for, like, Samantha Smith or.

Whatever, you know, Samantha Smith from Bloomington, Illinois?

Yeah, she's turned into, like, Trixie or, like, that's such a cheesy name.

I mean, I know, yeah, if they're using their normal name, then Stacey69, but, yeah, I don't know how you're gonna find them otherwise.

Okay. He never found anyone he knew in his quest, but it never sat right with me, and it felt akin to cheating, especially because I knew he would never have been okay with it if I was doing the same thing and looking for guys that I knew.

Wait, wait. This person never said how she found out about this. Like, was he, like, hey, guess what I'm doing. I'm searching. That's true.

I'm searching.

She described this so casually. Like, oh, well, he never found anything in his quest. It almost sounds like. Like, were they just talking openly about it? That's interesting. Hey, babe, I'm just gonna go. I'm just gonna go search for every single woman's name that I've ever known to see if they happen to be a porn star. Cool. All right.

Sky needs a hobby.

I'll be back in, like, six months.

This guy.

Oh, damn. I didn't find anyone. I didn't find anyone. Whoops. I did. I found a lot of other stuff, though.

Okay. There's a real kicker to this one, though. He tried to justify it by saying it was okay for him because I was the one not wanting to have a lot of sex. Whereas for me, if I was doing that while denying him sex, it wouldn't be okay.

You're cut, bro. You just disqualified yourself. You just lost all credibility.

This is cheating.

Yeah.

Yeah, this is cheating. Okay, first of all, it's like, it's so weird to justify this as, like, oh, I'm just trying to see if I know anyone who does it. Like, that's. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. It's so weird if you do find someone, you know? Like, then he's saying, like, he gets off on knowing the naked girl on the screen. What's so.

Yeah, I mean, it's like. It's like, I'm just gonna go through every woman I know, all their Instagram photos, and see if they happen to have any nudes up there.

But then it's like. It's like he's trying to justify it as like, oh, this is just my fun little pet project. But then he also says later that.

Like, because you're not having sex with.

Me, yeah, it's only okay for him, but not for her. Get out of here, bro.

Yeah, I mean, yes, you. You don't. I. I mean, we. We see this so often in the comments on our reels, whenever we post about sex drive or, you know, like, any. Any concept where, like, she doesn't want it or she wants sex less or something. All these comments from so many bros being like, oh, this is why men cheat. Blah, blah, blah. As if somehow, like, somehow it is okay to make a commitment that you're not going to do something, stay in that marriage. And then somehow it is okay to. To cheat because somebody did something else for you. It's like, yo, like, man up and ask for a divorce if that's what you want. Like, it's not. You don't get to just be like, oh, well, you're withholding sex from me, so I will go get it somewhere else, even though I committed to not do that earlier on. Then it's like, well, you didn't really commit to anything. You made a contingent commitment, which you didn't make clear at the beginning. So, yeah, it's just up logic.

Yeah, this.

Bro. Bro logic. Bro logic. Cut this guy. Okay, let's move on. Hiring a sex worker for a prostate massage, a bit more of the story. There were never.

We just have to stop there. Like, okay, this isn't. Is this cheating? The first sentence is, hiring a sex work, a prostate massage, assuming that any.

Kind of sex workers are off the table in your relationship, 100%. Yeah, it's cheating.

99.9% of couples are going to say hiring a sex worker counts as cheating.

Yeah. So if hiring a sex worker for a penis massage is cheating, then hiring a sex worker for a prostate massage is also. Is also cheating.

I mean, if you have an arrangement in your relationship where you guys are allowed to see sex workers and you're cool with that, great. Like, but I think the vast majority of people are gonna say, we don't even need to read anymore. Like, this is just cheating.

No, the only thing I can think of is if I'm assuming. Well, this. I'm assuming this the guy, because it's. We're talking about a prostate here. Yes. The only thing I can think of, which makes me chuckle a little, is if this guy thought he Was gonna, like, pull a fast one on his wife, and maybe she didn't know what a prostate was. And he's like, oh, I'm just, like, trying to hire a massage, like, massage therapist to work out my prostate. You know, like. Like assuming they think it's, like, a muscle or something. Oh, I pulled my prostate, and I need someone to work it out. It's really backed up.

All right.

I just kind of chuckled at that idea.

Okay, so, yes, this is cheating, but.

We'Re gonna read the rest of the. Keep going. Let's keep going, because why not a bit more of the story? There were never any prior discussions about interest for this activity, nor conversations about trying this with a hired female worker in her Dungeon for $500.

That's a lot for a prostate massage.

I don't know. I've never inquired about the cost of prostate massage in a dungeon. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, this could be, you know, in this. In this inflation, in this economy. I mean, who says inflation doesn't apply to sex work?

I mean, sex workers should get that money.

Well, I mean, they got to pay themselves. And when the cost of everything else goes up, the cost of sex work has to go up too.

I'm all for it.

When I realized his location did not match up with where he said he was, I began to ask questions. He lied and denied until finally coming clean the next day.

Finally the next day.

He doesn't believe this is cheating because there was no kissing or other sexual touches involved other than the sexual touch of the prostate, which makes you come, which is inherently a. Like a.

There was no sexual.

Sexual.

Other than the sexual.

A sexual part of the male.

There was no cheating other than the cheating.

I mean, that's like. That's like. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, she was rubbing my penis, but, like, it's just part. You know, it's just part of me. Like, my shoulder.

Like, there was no sexual touch.

She didn't know that I was going to ejaculate.

Oh, buddy. Okay.

He. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, he doesn't think there was any sexual touch involved.

Any other sexual touch involved?

Okay. Any other. Yes. Any other sexual touch involved other than the sexual touch of the prostate? He apparently did not orgasm, and when asked if he would like to continue at 45 minutes, he declined and laughed. Oh, okay. I have an idea. I'm gonna go get a happy ending massage. As long as I don't. As long as I don't come, it's cool, right?

Oh, God.

As long as I. And I get up and leave. No harm, no foul, right? As long as you start and don't finish, as long as you start and stop, it's all good. Is that the, is that the, the bro logic here?

Just, I'm also just dead at this woman, like, stopping him and being like, it's been 45 minutes, babe. It's gonna be another $500. Do you wanna, you wanna keep going? And he's just like, no, I'm good. No, I'm good. Let me out of this dungeon.

I mean, or like, bro, you just invested $500. Like, what's another 500 more?

Gotta get that orgasm.

I mean. Yeah, you just wasted that money and you cheated on your partner and she caught you and you lied to her and then, and then admitted it, but then still tried to gaslight her that it wasn't cheating because it wasn't sexual.

It wasn't other sexual time. Okay, we're giggling at this one because there's, there's so much going on here, but I do want to like, come back and ground us and, and say I appreciate the person who took the vulnerability to write this one. And I'm, I'm sorry that you're in this situation.

Yeah. You deserve better. You deserve better.

You deserve better. This is cheating. This is not okay. Again, if you had had an agreement where you guys were okay with the other going to see sex workers, that's fine.

Or an agreement that, that prostate play somehow not is not sexual.

Yeah.

Even though it's, it can make a man orgasm. Yeah.

So if you have. But I'm assuming that you didn't have those agreements in place because you're writing into us asking, is this cheating or not? This is a hundred percent cheating. A thousand percent cheating. And I'm really sorry that you're in a relationship where you're gaslit enough to the point where you don't realize that this is cheating. Like, get out of here. Run.

Yeah.

Do not pass Go. We're done with this man.

Yeah.

May he find his prostate joy in some other dungeon.

Yeah. I mean, keep at it. Keep at it. You might, might be better next time.

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Not a. Not a failed happy ending.

Yes.

Or an unhappy. An unhappy ending.

Okay. Does this count as cheating at the time? My boyfriend of three years went for a happy ending massage while I was on a girls trip. He did this behind my back. I found out afterwards by going through his phone. I don't usually do this. Something just felt off. So I wanted to see for myself and I'm glad I did. I confronted him and he confessed to what he did. He said he wanted to see what it was like. I think this is cheating. Would love to get your thoughts.

Yeah, I think it's cheating a thousand percent.

How is this not cheating? I mean, somebody else jacked him off.

Yeah, I mean like, like you just said before, unless you have some kind of special arrangement around sex work or, or not sex work, just. Oh, like, you know, jack offs are fine from other people. It's cheating. I mean it's. Yeah, it's pretty simple. Yeah. I love when people are like, oh well, like, well, I didn't kiss them. I mean you can do everything without kissing.

I also love the like gaslighting. There's just so much gaslighting happening in this episode. But from him just being like, I just want to see what it was like.

That's not. I don't think that's gaslighting. I. I think he's being honest actually.

But that's gaslighting to try to convince your partner that it's not cheating. Because I just wanted to see what it was like. Like, I just wanted to see what it was like to have sex with another person. It's not cheating. I would just try to see what it was like.

I know he didn't. They didn't say that. He tried to say it wasn't cheating. He just. He said that he confessed and he said.

I think he's saying it wasn't because that. Why would this person be writing in saying, I don't know, she's probably like.

Why did you do that? And he was like, I just wanted to see what it was like. But I also didn't want you to know.

I mean, it's cheating.

Yeah, I mean, it's cheating. And, you know, on top of that, there's like, the willful intention to. To hide it from you. Like, he clearly, in all of these. In all of these cases, it seems like the person is trying to hide it from the person. Which is the. Which is the second part of it. Even if you were to say, okay, I guess I don't really have an issue with the sexual part of this. There's the. So why did you.

Why would you hide it?

Yeah, why. Why did you go out of your.

Way to hide it from me?

What else are you hiding from me if you did this so easily?

Yeah. If you think it was so normal and, like, totally fine, why wouldn't you just be like, hey, babe, hope you're having a great time on your girls trip. Yeah, today I've got my happy ending massage. I'm so excited to see what it's gonna be like. I've been wondering all these years. Yeah, like, you would be upfront about it, but no, he wasn't, because he knew that it was cheating.

You know what's interesting? We've just been talking about this from the last two. I mean, like, now flip this around for the very first question that we answered about the where is it? Oh, yeah. Oh, no, sorry. Not the AI news. The one. The second one. The wanting to go to a sex club where it's like this. The person asking that question is, I think, very clearly has an idea that this is probably wrong and is trying desperately to find a justification for why she doesn't have to tell him.

Yeah, for sure.

Wow. Okay, we gotta. We gotta move on. Okay. I met my husband during freshman orientation at college 18 years ago when I was younger, deep into trying to date, slash hooking up with his suite mate. At the time, I was so into this other guy and he was really into me, but was more on the promiscuous side, and it didn't end up going anywhere. Shortly after my husband and I hit it off and we have been together ever since. 18 years. Married for 10, I remained close friends with his suite mate, who was even in our wedding. But there was always major sexual tension between us, despite my relationship, engagement, and marriage to my husband. During my engagement, when we hung out alone, we crossed lines. Especially if alcohol was in the mix. And by cross lines, I mean sexting, holding hands, exchanging dirty pictures, dancing, and just general inappropriate closeness. No direct dirty touching. But honestly, we both craved it.

This is cheating.

Glad you're being honest. I'm glad you're being honest. Own the honesty you're saying.

Like you cross lines. You are know this is cheating.

He got married and all of that stopped. We aren't even close anymore, and I miss him. Interesting that it stopped when he got married, not when you got married. My marriage to my husband is wonderful. Although we have work to do on our sex life post children, we made bidding big. We've made big improvements recently, thanks to you, Vanessa, and Xander. But I find myself missing the excitement of the other guy and fantasizing about him, even when being intimate with my husband. I've never told anyone about any of this because it feels like straight up cheating. And everyone who knows me would be shocked to find this out. Would love your thoughts and insight.

Yeah, I do think this was cheating. And I think you know it was cheating. Like you. You specifically described it as. It crossed lines. Yeah. Things like sexting, holding hands, exchanging dirty pictures. Definitely. I mean, you just said, like, general inappropriate closeness.

You say both, knowing that you both wanted.

Yeah, I mean, you say literally, it feels like straight up cheating. You know, everyone who knows you would be shocked to find this out. So it's cheating. 100%. No doubt. I also want to be clear, though, because I don't think we've said this yet in this episode. Like, cheating in and of itself doesn't make you a terrible person.

And it doesn't necessarily mean your relationship's sober.

Yeah, like, it's not a good thing to do. Cheating in and of itself is a bad thing to do. But we are all humans. We all do bad things, and we are not defined by the worst things that we've ever done.

And I think statistically speaking, like, mo cheating, like physical infidelity doesn't, like statistics wise doesn't end the majority of relationships. It's. I think. But it's what. It's how the couple decides to deal with it. How, you know, now, that's why I was like, you know, hey, this is physical infidelity and willful, like, hiding it and whatever. I think there's a lot of examples where like somebody makes a mistake and immediately tells the other partner because they are tore up about it inside. And it's like, you know, that's a different, it's, it's different to move on from something like that versus something else, where it's like, oh, I found out about this 10 years later and now you're telling me that you've been thinking about this person constantly non stop. Like those are two very different things.

Yeah. So you're not a terrible person. But it does give me a little bit of pause that you're not really expressing remorse in this post. You're not saying, like, I knew what I was doing was wrong, I feel bad that I did this. You're not expressing any sort of guilt. So it's this. Yeah, it gives me a little bit of pause when I'm not seeing that. And you're also saying that you're continuing to actively fantasize about this person, which is really unfair to your husband. You know, we kind of talked about this earlier in the episode that we're not 100% in control of our thoughts. Like, it's, it's totally fine if you like, occasionally have a fantasy pop into your mind. It's okay if you're like occasionally actively fantasizing about somebody else. But this feels like it really crosses the line for me of it's not even just a random person. It's not like a celebrity. It's not the like cute person that you made contact, eye contact with at the grocery store. It's like, this is somebody that you already have cheated with. If you're continuing to actively and frequently fantasize about him.

Emotionally cheat.

Yeah, so you're, you, you physically cheated beforehand. You emotionally cheated beforehand and you're continuing that cheating with the fantasizing. So I really encourage you to stop fantasizing about him. It's just not fair to your husband. It's not kind. If this is like, if you really want to be with this other man, then shoot your shot and try to be with him. But you have to like, like leave your husband. It's not. What you're doing to him is not fair and it's not kind.

Yeah, I, I have a, Yeah, I really agree with that last part. I have a slightly different take from what you were saying before. It's like, it's. I, I what I really wonder just from reading all of this and yeah, it's like reading the way that you describe this and the way that you've said that you're continuing to think about it, and it really, you know, it really excites you, and you're not really showing any remorse for it. And it's like, yeah, it's sad. It's sad that you're not showing any remorse for it because I know you love your husband. I'm sure he would be devastated to find this out. But what that makes me wonder is, like, it doesn't sound to me like you are ready to be in a committed, monogamous relationship for the rest of your life. It sounds like what you're saying here is that you've been like, you want to have other experiences. This happened to be the. Your outlet for this desire to have some other exciting sexual experiences. And so you engaged in that to, you know, some extent. You did. Not to the fullest extent, but, like, to enough of an extent continuously that it caused problems. And, you know, when we're saying it's cheating, you know, I. I think, like. Like, yeah, you could. You could come clean to your husband and see how he reacts and responds, and if he wants to stay with you, and you could try to move on. But I think honestly, in this situation, like, my just gut recommendation would be like, I think they. I think that probably it's in your best interest to leave your husband and. And, yeah, and engage in the stuff that you want to engage in. Like, not, like, get it out of your system, but, like, you know, honor yourself. There's clearly a part of you inside that is screaming for wanting these other things. And, you know, you've been trying to repress it, and you repress and repress and then you act out.

Yeah.

And so I think that you need to get to the bottom of this individually, whether that is experimenting with things or getting into therapy and figuring out, like, why this keeps coming up for you. But, you know, I think the nice. Honestly, the nice, the. The kinder thing to your current husband, maybe to actually not tell him and just to end the relationship rather than, you know, tell him he's going to be totally torn up about this. And, you know, and then he might even end the relationship. But then it's like, not only then is the relationship over, but then he has this, like, horrible, you know, I don't know, his. His perception of the whole marriage is. Is even worse. So. Oh, that's so tough.

All right, let's move on to our last story.

Bring us home, babe.

I'm in a committed, loving marriage. I, female, have always had the higher sex Drive in my marriage after having our fourth child, I was feeling really lost, undesirable, and struggling with no desire myself. After a particularly long stretch of no sex, I was feeling frustrated and decided to surf the Internet to look for more information on bdsm, more specifically dom sub dynamics. Because I've always fantasized about it but never experienced it, one thing led to another. I made an anonymous profile on a BDSM website and started chatting with doms. One in particular stood out to me, and he and I have been messaging for about two weeks. Our messages include dirty texting and sometimes even pictures or videos exchanged. This has lit a spark back in me, and my husband and I have been having great sex again. I know this can't go on forever, but it feels good right now to be desired so much. My husband does not know about the Internet, dom or my BDSM desires at all.

Ooh. What? What do you mean? I'm saying, ooh, this is tough. I mean, I think this is cheating.

But there's a debate.

No, I'm saying, oh, like, I'm sad.

Like, oh, okay, I thought you were saying, like, ooh, I don't know.

No, no, no, not like, oof, this is hard for me. Yeah, it's cheating. Yeah.

This is a thousand percent cheating.

Yeah. I mean, not only are you chatting, you're sending dirty pictures and videos of each other. Like, yeah, yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, but unless you have an arrangement that is okay to. I mean. But yeah, I mean, this is. This is the tricky thing. I. I think this happens in a lot of relationships. And, like, one person starts having an affair all of a sudden, it, like, brings this energy back into the relationship. And then that almost in a fucked up way, gets used as justification of, oh, well, I'm actually, like, saving. I'm saving our marriage by firing everything back up. You are saving your marriage by firing it back up. If your partner is totally on board with this and they're like, oh, hell yeah. Like, I love. I love seeing you excited. I'm not. You know, this doesn't. This doesn't bother me or I don't feel jealous. Like, if he were all in on this, I think that you've shot yourself in the foot. It's unlikely that he will be all in on this since you already started without asking permission.

It's so interesting to me to see the ways that people justify this. Like, I think that 99.9% of people would read this and say, this is cheating. But, like, how has this person managed to justify it to themselves. And the last person, too. Like, enough that they would need to write into us to ask, is this cheating? It's like, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't matter if you haven't been feeling desired. It doesn't matter if the sex that you're having with your husband is better. Like. Like, you're having sexual experiences with another person who is not your partner, and.

You'Re actively not telling your partner about it. You're actively hiding it from your partner.

That's cheating. Like, it's just cheating.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think that, like, the way that this could have gotten back on the rails in an kind of an acceptable or, like, not hurtful way would have been right at that very beginning where you're starting to feel frustrated and talking about that, hey, I'm feeling really frustrated. I don't know what to do. I. I don't know what the story is behind why they weren't having sex, but it sounds like, obviously this person has the higher sex drive. I'm assuming that the partner is not wanting, not open to sex, not able to have sex, whatever. Like, that's the opportunity to talk about, hey, this is really hard for me. I'm. You know, can we talk about, like, you know what? You know, if there's any other, like, outlets available for me or, like, how. How do we manage this? Because, you know, I think you've seen plenty of clients in the past where it's like, you know, once sex becomes less important to someone. Yeah, they might. They might all of a sudden feel like, oh, yeah, no, I would be okay if you did X, Y, or Z. But that's because that's a conversation you have together. It's a decision. It's not even a decision you make together. It's a decision that the partner is saying, you know what? I'm thinking about what I am and am not okay with, and I am giving you permission to open up in these certain ways beyond what we both assumed was on the table in our relationship. Yeah, but, like, yeah, once you've already. Not only have you gotten started, I mean, it even would have been one thing if it was like, you know what? You were searching the Internet. Because it's one thing to, like, learn about bdsm, like, intellectually is another to then be like, you know, on. On a website, creating a profile. So, like, it could have been like, you know what? I was just, like, I was, like, feeling kind of horny and curious, and I was, like, Googling BDSM and I, like, landed on this website, which looks really exciting, but also, like, scary, because I was like, ooh, this is, like. Feels like kind of like potentially crossing a line. So I wanted to talk to you about this, like, because this does. It makes me. It feels really exciting to me, and it feels like it could be really exciting to bring this energy back into our relationship. What do you think about this? Like, you know, if you don't feel okay with this, I'm gonna. I'll block this website. Never go there again. But then, you know, it's like. But then you took another step, and then you took another step, and at this point, your partner is not going to be able to kind of roll things back and be like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I can retroactively give you permission for all these things.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, take that. If you're interested in bdsm, like, that's great. That can be really exciting to, like, get you fired up. But you got to take that back to your partner and explore that with them, not with other people. Okay, so let's wrap things up by just focusing a little bit on relationships and how we can make the current relationships that we have feel as happy and healthy and connected as possible. And I think it's important for us to be real. Like, relationships are one of the most important parts of our lives, but most of us don't actually do anything to make them better. And it's not because we don't want to. It's just that we don't know what to do.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know that things could be better, and you feel that, but where are you supposed to start? And especially if things aren't feeling bad, like, you're not fighting all the time, you're not on the verge of breaking up. Like, then what are you supposed to do? Because therapy is great. We love therapy. We talk about therapy all the time, but it's not always the right fit for every season of your relationship.

That's why we created Deeper. It's the thing that we wish we had in our own relationship. A way to keep investing in each other that actually feels fun, doable, and practical.

Yeah. We've heard from so many couples who got excited about something. Like, maybe they try some. A new idea in the bedroom, something we suggested on this podcast. But then, you know what always happens? Life happens, and the excitement fades, and you're right back in autopilot mode. We did not want that in our relationship. We definitely experienced it over and over. We found a way to make it stop. And we don't want that to be the case in your relationship.

We wanted to create something that gives you ongoing, bite sized ways to keep your relationship growing. Whether that's improving communication, deepening intimacy, or just bringing back that playful spark that you used to have.

Yeah. Like we mentioned before, over years of working with other couples and creating our own resources, resources, courses and guides for other couples, and hearing from just so many of you all in long term relationships, we realized that everything that we teach, it comes back to these five key areas that make up a thriving relationship. And those are communication. So like knowing how to actually talk and listen to each other. Think about how many of these situations would have been solved with more of that. Okay, number two, Connection. Like feeling like you're truly seen and appreciated again. I can think of a number of these where if people are doing better in this area, a lot of these situations may never have happened. Desire, keeping the spark alive even when life is busy. This one again, I can, I can all receive with a lot of these. Pleasure making intimacy feel really good for the both of you and then exploration. So that's like growing together and keeping things feeling exciting.

And that is what deeper is all about. So we use this brand new quiz to help you figure out which of these five areas needs the most attention right now, you in your relationship. And then we give you the tools to improve it in a way that feels practical and fun, not at all overwhelming or intimidating.

Yeah. Plus you get instant access to our core curriculum library. So you can jump into whatever you need whenever you need it. So whether you're working on communication, reigniting desire, or just looking for some fresh inspiration, it's all there on demand.

And we also wanted to give you something totally unique, something that does not exist anywhere else. And that is Vanessa AI.

This is honestly so cool. Vanessa AI has been trained on everything that Vanessa has ever taught. From all of our courses and our guides to every single podcast episode, even private Q&As that Vanessa has done in our courses.

And that means that you can ask it anything at any time and even get step by step strategies, conversation prompts or personalized plans based on exactly where you're at at your relationship.

Plus there are so many other cool perks and features like two date night ideas every month, regular connection prompts and thought provoking questions. We got monthly live calls with Vanessa and me, private community discussions where there is no censorship, like there has to be on Instagram. So if you are curious to learn more or just join us in deeper. Go to vmtherapy.com deeper. That's vmtherapy.com deeper.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. And join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.