EPISODE 213: What Do Men REALLY Think About…? Part 3 (Doggy Style, Smut + Morning BJs & More!)

Okay, let's go in. Hot and heavy. What are you looking at during doggy? What keeps a man engaged in a relationship? Home decor. Do they care about how the house is decorated? What do you think when you see a woman who is prettier than me? Okay, what do men think about right after they finish? Hello and wel. Welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back with round three of Xander speaking for all men.

My favorite thing, favorite thing to do. I feel like, you know, I'm as good as any to be the representative for all men. Right? That's sarcasm, by the way.

What do men really think about sarcasm? Now, we always get questions in our community from people asking, like, what do men really think about this? What do women really think about this? And so it, you know, obviously just feels like a fun podcast topic to dive into. So we've done two previous editions. We had episode 56. So we covered things like vulvas and emotional intimacy. Then we had episode 69. We talked about lingerie, boobs, money, queefing, a lot of hot topics.

We've hit a lot of. We've covered a lot of angles, but.

We haven't talked about it in a long time because this is episode 213.

Wow.

Which is also my birthday episode.

Wow.

So we haven't talked about this yet.

It's not actually Vanessa's birthday for a long time, though.

Well, no. 2. 13.

Yeah, I know, I know. That is the. Yeah.

The initials of your number of the episode. The initials.

Yeah. The date format.

Okay, so we're. We are back today, and, boy, did we get some interesting questions when we posted this on Instagram.

We always do.

Also, I have to say, a lot of. A lot of men misunderstood the question, so we. I wrote like, we're doing an episode called what Do Men Really Think About? You know, fill in the blank. We're going to ask Xander to give us his voice. Raw, unfiltered opinions. So let us know in the question box, what are some topics that you're wondering about? But a lot of men read it as us asking, what do men really think?

What do you actually think about all day long?

Yeah. And there were two super common responses. Let me see if you can guess what they are.

Like, boobs or sex?

Sex was one. There was a lot of boobs. That might have been number three. What do you think number two was?

Roman Empire.

That was there a lot. But no, it wasn't as popular.

Hmm. I don't know. Food?

Nothing.

Oh.

Which we do don't answer anything about that. Cause we actually do have a question about that later.

I think that's a good response.

Nothing. Just straight up nothing. Okay. So before we get into it, though, we do always like to give the disclaimer. Everybody is unique and different. Of course, Xander is not, like, literally speaking for every single man. But we do like doing these episodes because we think they're great conversation openers. Like, it's a super fun one to listen to with your partner. You can pause after we ask. Like, after I ask every question. And ask your partner first. Like, okay, what would you say? How would you respond to this one? And then, like, come back and listen to Xander's response. So it's a great conversation opener.

So, yeah, maybe a more accurate title to this episode would be, what does One Guy Think about this? Brilliant insight into a male's mind and thinking on topics that women think might be interested in. That doesn't sound like an episode. Like, yeah, our podcast team would not allow us to use that title. So we have our current title, which is what Two Men Think about this.

Okay. And also, I want to give you permission to be fully honest here.

Okay.

Because sometimes we get feedback and people are like, oh, Xander's just saying that because you're there. Like, he doesn't want to hurt your feelings. Or, like, be honest. So I will say for the next hour, however long we record for, I will not. I promise you that I will not get mad or upset or hurt about anything you say for the next hour. This is like, free zone.

Okay. This is like. This is like our version of the hall pass. This is my hour long hall pass. But I'm with you the whole time.

What happens in the recording studio stays in the recording studio.

Wow. Okay.

Because I want you to feel like you can really give the raw, unfiltered.

I'm kind of scared to find out what the questions we have now because I don't know. I don't have any. I don't have my iPad in front of me with our outline. I have been.

Oh, no, you haven't seen any of.

The questions come into this blind, which is where I operate best? No, I don't really. I don't really. I like preparation usually, but not today. Let's go. Hey, Vanessa. I'm such a fan of our next podcast sponsor that I brought them with me. I took a valuable space in my luggage on my surf trip to Mexico to bring this along with me.

Wow, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I brought. I brought a package of Good Wipes premium butt wipes with me in my luggage because my butt can't live without them.

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But what I very, very stereotypically male and female scent choices there.

Oh God. But what I really like about these is that they're naturally scented and hypoallergenic. So no like harsh ingredients, anything like that. They're also super soft and free from any harsh chemicals. Parabens, dyes, none of that stuff. We good wipes over here and we know that you are going to love them as well. If you want to upgrade your restroom ritual, you can grab Good wipes at Target, Walmart, Kroger and most local grocery stores. And as a special offer for Pillow Talks listeners, Good Wipes is giving you your first pack for free. So you can buy any package, text them your receipt and get reimbursed almost immediately. For more details, head to goodwipes.com pillow talks again, that's goodwipes.com pillow talks to snag a free free pack of Good Wipes. A few years back I found out that I am One of the 30% of Americans who grind their teeth at night. I had no clue, but my dentist had to point it out to me because I was really like wearing down the enamel on my teeth and he was like, you have to wear a night guard. Otherwise like I'm catching this at the beginning stages. But this could get really bad if you don't wear a night guard. And that's why I'm so excited to tell you about our podcast sponsor, Remy, because they make custom fit night guards that are 80% less than what you'd pay for at the dentist and way easier. So here's how the process works. You get an impression kit sent straight to your door. They give you very easy step by step instructions to get the perfect impression. You send your kit off and then they ship you your custom fit night guard made in the US In Vegas. You get it back, you start protecting your teeth that very night. It's really so simple and easy. And the best part is that Remy is so confident you'll get a perfect fit that they offer a 45 night perfect fit guarantee or your money back. No waiting rooms, no overpriced bills. Just a better way to protect your teeth while you sleep. Try Remy risk free@shopremy.com pillow and use code PILLOW to get up to 50% off your night guard at checkout. That's 50% off at shop r e m I.com pillow with code PILLOW. Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. Okay, let's go in hot and heavy. What are you looking at during doggy?

I'm looking at your butthole.

Great. No, at times I look at it.

No, you know what? Sorry. I was thinking. I was thinking, like, in reverse cowgirl, like, I'm looking at, like, your. Your asshole. And also, like, the view of you going up and down on me, which is a wonderful view. In doggy style. You don't quite get the same, like, in and out type of view that you do in reverse cowgirl. No, actually in. No, in doggy. Like, in doggy, you have to really specifically look for the butthole. You got to look down at it, and it's kind of like, you know, if you're. Let's say you're spending a couple minutes in that position, it's kind of weird to be like. Have your. To be, like, looking down the whole time. I'm definitely gonna look at it. Okay, I'm gonna look at it. Maybe I'll touch it.

But why are you gonna look at it? Because I think this is something that makes a lot of women nervous. Why are you looking at it?

I think it's hot. Like, I like you naked, and I like all the parts of your naked body.

Even the butthole. I think most women would say, like, that's, like, my grossest part.

I don't think so.

Okay. We also.

I mean, if I didn't. Okay, let's put it this way. If I was not. If it didn't. If it grossed me out, I wouldn't look at it. It's very easy to not look at it during. During doggy because, like, your butt cheeks aren't spread open during doggy style, and it's, like, not right in front of your face. Like, it's kind of down below. So though, I mean, I'm kind of looking at you. I'm Looking at, like, the whole situation, I have a great view of the situation in front of me. So. Yeah.

Okay. We also had questions about, like, what about hairy, like, hairy buttholes or the color of the butthole?

I mean, I don't. All I know is the butthole that I have in front of me.

I mean, you've seen other buttholes.

It's been a while. I mean, it's been a while. And honestly, like, I've. I've only.

The other buttholes weren't as memorable as mine.

I've only had, like, consistent sex with a couple of. With like, I haven't had regular sex with very many people in my lifetime, to be perfectly honest. And most of the sort of, like, one night stands were definitely, like, not doing doggy. And if we were, it was probably dark, you know, like, wasn't the type of situation where it's like, okay, I'm taking my, you know, I'm like, I'm taking a look at everything.

Okay. But like, in general, do you think that men worry about hair or color when it comes to buttholes?

I don't think so. It's just. It's your butt. Like, my butt's pretty hairy. I don't know what color my butthole is.

Okay, let's go in a totally different direction.

Wait, wait. But also, I think that. I mean, I don't think. I think most women's buttholes aren't particularly hairy. That's more of a.

Everybody has hair in the butthole.

Yeah, Yeah. I think male buttholes tend to be a lot hairier.

There's like, hair all around too. Is there, like, on your butt? I mean, you. Yeah, you have. You're not even a particularly hairy person, but you have hair on your butt.

I don't know if I ever really noticed hair on your butt.

No, I don't have hair on my butt.

That's good. That's what I'm saying. But that's what I'm saying is, like, I don't think. I think most women in general just don't have a lot of hair on their butt. So I don't know. It's not something I've ever considered.

Okay, let's go in a totally different direction. Home decor. Do they care about how the house is decorated?

I mean, I think that a lot of men don't care that much. I think this is a matter of, like, relativity of like, of like, relative stuff. Like, I think that a lot of people or women get the idea that men don't care about home decor. At all. Because many men, I think, care less about home decor than their female partner does. And so it can feel like, oh, God, he just doesn't care at all. But I think, like, when home decor is done nice, it's, like, really nice to have, like, a peaceful, beautiful home. That where you like it? What I wonder, I mean, I don't know. This is hard for me to say is you and I have pretty similar tastes when it comes to home decorations. And we both really love the way that our home is decorated. I think we both really like it. It feels like, really like our home. It feels really peaceful. I love being in it. So for me, I feel like, yeah, I care about it a lot because it brings me a lot of happiness and peace and joy. You know, I think that. I do think that there's probably a lot of men who are not on the same page with their female partner about home decor kind of tastes or styles or choices, but they don't really know how talk about it. And I think also on the flip side, I think a lot of women don't really take men's home decor preferences very seriously. They go, oh, that's just like. That's ridiculous. I think there's the experience of a lot of men's preferences just kind of getting like, nah, we're just not gonna listen to that, or we're not gonna care about that.

I think the stereotype is, if we listen to you, then there would be a lot of, like, brown leather sofas and sports memorabilia.

Yeah. And I think that. Yeah, I think probably a lot of men's experience is like, you know, they might be wanting a certain type of piece of furniture or, like, one design choice or something. And instead of being listened to, I think a lot of people have the experience of, like, oh, well, that can't work because of xyz. Oh, well, we've chosen this theme for the house and blah, blah, blah. So it's like. It's not even. It's not even like. It's like they. I think a lot of men feel like, oh, well, I never even stood a chance because it was already this plan that I didn't really sign off on. And my. My preference doesn't fit in this plan. And so I think a lot of. So I think that's where a lot of this idea that, oh, men just don't care about it come from because they go, it doesn't matter what I say now. It's like, the. The train's off and go in. The train's Left the station.

So it's that they've given up. It's not that they don't care.

Yeah, I think so.

Like, you're not gonna let me have my cool stuff?

Yeah. I mean, that being said, I do think that there is the stereotype, which is probably often, more often than not true, of, like, you know, say, like, a man gets a divorce or breaks up or whatever, and moves into their own place and then, like, doesn't do shit with the house.

He's, like, sitting on the floor. The TV is, like, on the floor. Everything's on the floor. There's, like, one little folding table and folding chair.

Yeah, I think. Yeah.

Let me ask you this, because I feel like, as a woman, I have been socialized to care about the way my house looks, that when people walk into a house, into our house, they're primarily thinking that I did this. So, like, I've really been trained to care about this.

Yeah.

Do you think you've been trained to care about or, like, when people walk into our house?

The answer is no. Okay, I'm just gonna cut you off.

Are they like, oh, wow, Xander did such a good job with this?

No, they definitely don't. And also, I've never had the experience of even considering, like, oh, what is this person gonna think about xyz? Like, I think you have the. I observe you having the experience of, like, oh, all of this has to be cleaned or this has to be put away, because so and so maybe is coming over later today. And, you know, it's just, you know, really intricately thought through. Like, oh, well, what are they going to think about? What are they going to see when they see this? And then how is that going to reflect on me? Yeah, I've never had that experience. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's. I mean, I have the experience of going to someone's house all the time and, like, something is dirty or the. The dishes are in the sink. And I. I not. I'm like, oh, I'm in somebody else's house. Of course I expect it to not be perfect all the time. My house isn't perfect all the time. Why would I expect somebody else's house not to be perfect all the time? To me, it's just like, oh, this is. This looks like real life to me. And I think for you, it feels like. No, real life for me is my house. Everything is perfect.

That. Yeah. I mean, I want to separate, like, what I feel like I've been taught to think versus what I actually think. But Yeah, I do feel like I've been socialized to believe my house should look like nobody lives there when people.

Walk in, which is ridiculous because two people and two dogs that are pretty dirty live there. But. But, yeah, I. Honestly, for me, yeah, I don't care about that as much as you. We've been together for, what, going on 18 years now, and I've realized, hey, like, it's. This is something that matters to you, so it should matter to me. So it doesn't matter to me personally, but I know it matters to you. Your happiness is important to me, so I make an effort. You know, I'm sure that in the first couple of years of our relationship, I was probably not very cool about this. And, you know, you'd be like, oh, my God, we ought to clean up all. I'd be like, oh, that's ridiculous. They don't care about that. They're not going to care about that. And that probably felt really dismissive to you. And I think a lot of people are in relationships where that happens, you know, one year in, 10 years, in 20 years in. And, you know, it just feels like this doesn't care at all.

Yeah.

And, yeah, for me, it's more, you know, it's. It's kind of like a happy wife, happy life type of situation where I go, hey, I would much rather you feel good about this. So, of. So, of course I'm gonna. I'm gonna jump in and make sure that things are clean. I don't wait for you to ask me to do that when I know people are coming over. I tidy up because I know it's important to you.

I just want to jump in with the happy wife, happy life thing.

You said this was a safe space.

No, no, I have some. I just have, like. I feel like that can be a simplistic phrase. I mean, obviously, like, it is, but you and I both try to take the approach of if something matters to one of us, then it matters to both of us.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I say happy wife, happy life. I think for you it's happy husband, happy life. Right? Like, yeah, like, for you, your life is better when I'm happy, and for me, my life is better when you are happy.

Yeah. Okay. Now here's when you can really get honest.

Great.

What do you think when you see a woman who is prettier than me?

That's. I. That's such a. It's such a. Like, I want to push back against the phrasing of the question, because how this person asked because it, like, it implies like a, a scale of like. I feel like it reduces beauty in a way of like, oh, there's just objective. Like this person is better looking than that person. We've been together for so long that your, like, to, your beauty to me is so much more than just like physical or superficial. So I don't really, I. I'm being perfectly honest with you. Like, I don't look at some other woman and go, oh my God, she's so much more beautiful than my wife. Okay, yeah, maybe like if I didn't know you at all and it was like lining up you, you and somebody else and it's like, who do you think is physically more attractive? Like, yes, maybe I would probably say, okay, yeah, this person. To me, this person is more physically attractive. But to me there's so many things that are extremely attractive to me about you that are not visible from the outside. And after 18 years together, like all those things, I can't strip those things out of the equation. So I know it sounds like I'm dodging the question, but I don't really, I don't ever have the experience of seeing someone. I'm like, oh my God, that I wish I was with her because she's so much more beautiful.

So are you saying. I think what it sounds like to me is the comparison part of it just isn't in the equation for you. So you might notice a woman and think like, she's really hot or she's really beautiful, but you're not adding that she's hotter than Vanessa or she's more beautiful than Vanessa.

Yeah. And I, Yeah, when I see someone that's really physically attractive, I usually go, wow, that woman is really physically attractive. Like that. That's cool. Like that? Yeah, she's attractive.

Okay, I have a follow up question about this. Somebody else asked. When you see a hot woman, do you immediately think about what sex would be like with her?

Sometimes. But not like, not, not like, not really. Not like in gory detail. Well, like, and like, detail like what are we talking about seeing? Like, just like I got a glimpse of them on the street or like.

A woman walking down the street. Are you picturing like, what it would be like to have sex with her?

I don't know. That's a no. No. I would say no, Seymour. I mean, I think it's. I feel like we all probably band women, whatever. We all think about what sex would be like with various people at certain points in time. But it's not like for me, it's not like a fully formed thought. Like, let me think, what would it be like? And we're doing this and then we're doing that. I think it's. It's more of just like, oh, like that person is physically attractive. And then. Yeah, it's like, probably sometimes I think about sex, but not like in a. Not like in a fully formed fantasy type of way.

Okay.

Yeah.

Interesting. Okay. What do men think about right after they finish?

Often it's probably just like, oh, wow, that was great. That was great. I mean, I think what is funny, the. The funny thing to try to describe about the male experience with is the. Is like what the. What the refractory period is like and what that kind of, like, does to you. Because, you know, at least for me, it's like I have the experience of, like, as I'm getting closer and closer to orgasm, I'm like, really. I'm really into it. I'm, like, thinking about all kinds of things like, oh, God, this would be so hot, or that would be so hot or whatever. And like, oh, I want this, I want that. Like, I want more, more, more, whatever. And then you have an orgasm. And then, you know, I think, like, you're getting basically, like, a rush of, like, oxytocin and prolactin. And, you know, that kind of like, it's this weird experience because you instant. You almost instantaneously or over the course of your orgasm, you go from like, I want more, more, more. I want this, I want that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, yeah, like, let's keep going forever to. To like, oh, my God, I'm so satisfied. And I don't actually want any of those things. It's like, because it's like you have this. You know, you've made you. You're kind of like, almost trying to, oh, yeah, I want to do this. Oh, yeah, I want that so bad. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm like, so I'm 120% satisfied. And. And so weird that I was thinking about X, Y, and Z. Like, that doesn't actually sound good anymore. Like, even if you're like, oh, yeah, I want to go all night. Like, oh, I want to keep, like, you know, I'll have thoughts like, oh, yeah, like, I want to do this again right afterwards. And it's like, oh, no, I don't want to do that again right afterwards. It's just so. It's a weird emotional experience, which I think a lot. I'm pretty sure a lot. Slash all of men can relate with of being like, oh my God, I want this so bad or I want this or that or whatever.

Then you're just done.

And then you're just done.

Okay.

And you're like, oh wait, I don't want that. But it's like you I've learned to trust. Oh yeah, I will want that again soon, just not right now. And, and I think that maybe a lot of men get themselves into a weird pickle about this because maybe they're like saying things during sex like, oh, I want this, I want. Like you're saying things and then all of a sudden you feel like, oh wait, oh God, why did I say that? I don't want that. I think it's just, it's like this is a simple con have with your partner, but like, hey, this is, and honestly this is like a vulnerable, like emotional type of conversation to have with your partner. Hey, this is what this is like for me when I have an orgasm. It's a kind of funny and weird experience of like I have these very strong urges or desires or whatever in the lead up to orgasm. And as soon as I have the orgasm it's like I feel very differently about those things. It's not like, ew, gross, I didn't want to do that or I didn't want to say that. It's just like, wow, that felt so real in the moment. Like that desire and that desire now doesn't like that doesn't feel real to me anymore. It felt real in that moment, but it doesn't now.

Okay, let's be honest. We have all asked Chat GPT about a funky symptom, right? Like my eye is kind of swollen and itchy. I've got this funky looking rash somewhere. Maybe like a tight pain in your neck or just this cold that won't go away. Away. We've all gone down that rabbit hole, but it's time to get the help and care that you really need and deserve.

Yeah.

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I don't think it's really that you're not thinking about anything. I think that. Okay, so often when you. I think that when men are saying, I'm not thinking about anything, really, what they're saying is, I am thinking about something. I'm. I am locked into the activity that I'm doing right now, and I'm not thinking about anything else. Like, I am doing whatever. I am fixing this. I'm putting the thing together. I'm doing this project for work. I am mowing the lawn, whatever the it is, and I am thinking about that. I am not thinking about anything else. I'm thinking about the task at hand.

Okay.

So, yeah, I think that also, though, like, often I'm just kind of doing things here to there. I'm not thinking about very much beyond. Okay, I gotta go do this. Okay, now I'm gonna go do this. I'm gonna grab this in this room and take it into that room. I do go. Yeah, I. I don't. I definitely used to be more of a ruminator. I. Much less so now. And, yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't think about a lot of extra stuff day in and day out. I'm a lot happier that way.

Are there times when you're just, like, really not thinking about anything? There's just nothing in your mind?

If I'm not, like, I would say that's unlikely. If I'm not doing anything, if I'm doing things, then I'm not thinking about very much beyond the task of what I'm doing.

I also think this question loops back into mental load, which we just did a podcast episode about a few ones back. So scroll back a little bit if you haven't heard us talk about mental load. But I think mental load imbalances can really be at the root of why so many women feel like they're just thinking, thinking, thinking all day long. And it feels like their men are just kind of like, going through life just chilling, just being there. Okay, I'm gonna ask you this one with no context or explanation. I just wanna see what you do with it. What do men think about women going crazy over Pedro Pascal?

Wait, who's Pedro Pascal?

Also, I said Pedro. That was so weird. Pedro. Pedro.

Who's Pedro Pascal from Last of Us.

Yes. You knew it. Great. Good job. The ender's not very Good.

I won't give any spoilers.

Okay.

I don't know. Women are going crazy over him.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know what to think. You gotta find another man. I didn't know about this.

Why do you think? Yeah, women are really into him.

Cool. I mean, yeah, he's a good looking dude, I guess.

Okay.

Yeah.

No thoughts?

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, this is something that just wasn't on my radar.

Okay.

I mean, in general, I guess. I mean, I. But I feel like the question can still be answered. Like there's always someone that are like, oh, women are so into whomever. Right. And for me, I've never really felt like any kind of ego or jealousy or like, oh, my God, I need to be more like him. I mean, I. I think that if you're. If you are confident and secure in your relationship, I don't really see. I don't really see that as any kind of threat.

Okay, let me tell you a little bit more about why women are into him and maybe we'll see if this brings up anything.

Can we spark some jealousy in Xander?

I just googled why do women like Pedro Pesco?

Great.

Here's what Google says. Modern masculinity. His portrayal of characters often highlights traits like vulnerability and emotional intelligence which deviate from traditional masculine stereotypes. Trustworthiness and reliability. His characters often project an image of strength and reliability while also demonstrating compassion and understanding. Physical attractiveness. Obviously genuine personality. He's known for his humble demeanor, which further enhances his appeal.

Were we saying in the characters that he plays or in real life?

Both. And Latinx?

Because he's playing. Because he's playing a character that like, whatever character he's playing, he's playing the character that was written for him, not himself.

I think a lot of people think that he has a lot of those traits himself, that he is.

Which is why they cast him in these roles. Because it's like, oh, this guy knows how to embody that.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Like, I'm curious what you. Let's talk about, like, the modern masculinity. Because he is known to be somebody who's like, more thoughtful, more sensitive. Not that, just like, you know, know, silent. What is it? Oh, my God.

Strong silence. It's a. I mean, it's a good lesson for men. Like, yes, women are attracted to men that are portraying some amount of emotional vulnerability. I think it's a good thing to aspire to.

Okay, what this. I'm gonna just leave this one really broad and open too. What do men think about women aging?

That's an interesting question. It's a funny question because I feel like throughout. Okay, just. I'm just talking totally personally here.

Okay?

But actually, no, first of all, I will say this. I have not. Okay, we're. I'm 39. I'm almost 40. Vanessa is 41. So, you know, that's the general age of, like. Like, my friends. Because, like, so I. I don't. I have not had the experience of any of my friends talking about their partner's aging or, like, oh, she's getting so old, or her body, blah, blah, blah. I've. I have not had that experience. I. I have never once. I've never once heard any of my friends talk about. Talk about that at all. And it's. It's funny because for me, personally, I feel like, you know, when we were in our. In our 20s and kind of early to mid-30s, I feel like that was just something where I was like, yeah, we're still young. And I feel like we're at the point where I'm like, okay, yeah, we're, like, getting into middle age. Like, that's definitely. That's definitely where. Where we are. And. Yeah, I guess when I was younger, I always kind of wondered, like, oh, yeah, well, like, you know, what will it be like when we are. When, you know, both of us are starting to see, like, changes to our body? You know, like, I'm getting some gray hairs and stuff. You're not.

I'm not. Yeah, weirdly, yeah.

But. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, objectively, there have been changes to both of our bodies, I think. And, yeah, I think I was always like, oh, yeah, like, is that something I'm gonna notice? But I think it's very much just, like, you don't really note. I feel like from teenage years onwards, like, you don't really notice people aging. It's just. You're just kind of keyed into, like, this is the general age group of people that I'm in. And we.

We're doing it together.

We're doing it together.

It's happening slowly.

We're doing it together. And like, yeah, you just kind of tend to be attracted to the people that are in your age bracket. That's what you're used to looking at, right? Like, I. Yeah, it's like, I see people that are younger, and I might be like, okay, yeah, that person is. Is attractive and, like. But they look really young. So, yeah, I feel like my brain just is constantly developing to be acclimated to, like, what Our age group is.

You're saying you're not in the pervy old man stage of thinking 20 year olds are hot?

Not yet. Not yet.

Have you seen any like 20, 20 somethings lately that you thought were wrong?

Yeah, they look like children to me.

Interesting. Okay, well, so, okay, the bigger picture here is that in general, men aging is seen as a good thing. I mean, fucking Pedro Pascal. Why can't, why am I saying it so weird? Pedro, Pedro, whatever. Pedro, Pedro. He is, he's looking like hotter and hotter as he gets older and older. You are looking so much hotter as you get older.

I think you look hotter as you been getting older.

So I think men in general, like when they get a little rugged, some leathery skin, some gray hair, like men start to look real good as they get older. And women, we are socialized to believe that women don't look as good as we're getting older. We're socialized to believe that our prime is like, like in our 20s and it's all like downhill from there. So I think a lot of women feel very conscious of, you know, you're getting hotter and I'm getting naughter and. Yeah, it just feels like there's so much that we're grappling with that can feel really scary. Especially after a lifetime of being taught that our, you know, one of our primary values is our attractiveness. Feeling like you're losing that, things are sagging, skin's losing elasticity, gray hairs are coming in, wrinkles are forming. Like, it can be really scary for a lot of women.

Yeah, I think you're just getting hotter and hotter, being totally honest with you.

What about when my hair does start to go gray?

That's, I, I won't be surprised when that happens. That's just where we're at. Yeah, I don't know. I, I don't know to tell you, like I've, I mean, like I said, I'm not going to be surprised. Like mine is starting to, so why wouldn't yours? You're older than I am.

Rude. I don't. It's interesting. Yeah, it like brings up this.

It'S.

Just an interesting question to sit with in general too. Like, I feel like I've heard so often, like middle aged women are just so invisible in our society. Like we're. All of our value is being, you know, being young and hot. And when you start getting into middle age, which I guess we are your 40s, kind of middle age. I don't, I've never been sure.

I don't know.

Yeah. It just feels like so much of our, our value starts to go away, and that's a really sad, scary thing. So I think so many women are worrying, you know, is my partner. Well, here's the thing. It's like society is viewing this, me in this way. Is my partner viewing me in this way that I'm getting less and less desirable and less and less attractive to them.

I'm not. I've not heard any of my friends talk about that.

Okay, good to know.

So, yeah, if they feel that way, they don't feel that way strongly enough to complain to their, to their guy friends about it.

Here's an interesting question. What keeps a man engaged in a relationship?

Wow. Okay. I think, I mean, I think I. I think like, I think men want to be in relationships where they feel, like, seen and understood and appreciated. I think, I think, I think appreciation is, Is a big thing. And yeah, that's. I, I think where things go wrong with appreciation is this sort of feeling. Like, what I'm not saying is men need to be appreciated for doing the bare minimum. I think a lot of people, you know, I think that two things can be true that, like, yeah, maybe the load in your relationship is, Is wildly imbalanced. That doesn't mean that there's nothing to appreciate about your partner. That also doesn't mean that it's totally okay that the load is totally imbalanced. And I'm so, I'm not telling you, yeah, just go appreciate your husband and don't do anything about the, the wild imbalance in your relationship. But I think, yeah, I think that it can be very easy to kind of forget about just like the small things. I think that keeping it spicy sexually, whether that is just making an effort to have sex be more top of mind or to do new things together. It's not always like, oh, he just needs to be doing new things. It could, it could just be like, like, hey, like, it would be cool to see May or my partner show some excitement about sex or talk about it with me, not like, avoid the conversation. I think so many men have the experience of getting into a relationship and then it feels like their partner wants to avoid the conversa. The, the topic of sex because they're worried that it might lead to sex. And, and you know, sex in that moment is not actually something that they are wanting. Um, so again, I'm not saying like, oh, you need to want sex all the time. I think, you know, to women, I think men need to be. Men need to in general do a better job figuring out how to co create good sexual experiences and co create like the space in your relationship and your home life and everything to have the space for sex to be more top of mind. But that being said, I, I do think that, I do think that men want in general, men who like to have sex generally enjoy seeing their partner enjoy that. Because I think honestly my experience like going through puberty was like, look, obviously boys, men, teenagers, whatever, like obviously like we're horny, we want it. Things are happening like going through puberty. Like I'm thinking about things and I feel like for me my biggest question mark sort of through my sexual awakening and puberty era was just this kind of like constant wonder of like, like do our women, girls, whatever. Like, like are girls actually into this? Like, I don't, I can't tell. Like I want, I really like, I really want them to be. It's really the idea that they're thinking about a lot of these same things I am is really hot. That but like I genuinely don't know. And I think the reality is yes, they are. They also are really socialized to be really careful in how they talk about it. And I think it's really easy to get the idea that like, oh, you know, you get into a relationship and things are exciting at first and then things kind of start going in that direction where it's like, oh, we're not really talking about it, we're talking around the issue and now they want to avoid this topic and you can come away with this idea that oh yeah, maybe like maybe they just aren't into this at all. Or maybe, yeah, like maybe this is just something that I want. So I think that, yeah, I think it's important that, that sex is top of mind and is a, a topic of, a fun topic of discussion. And yeah, I mean I think also like you want someone to kind of like be on the adventure of life with you and maybe to, to like support you in your, you know, I think that maybe men more often than women in relationships kind of have like, like, I don't know, kind of like weird or goofy ideas like oh, we should do this or that and like I think just someone that kind of, you know, is supportive in the getting a hair up, a wild hair up your nose every now and then of like, okay, yeah, I'm down, let's try that.

Okay. Yeah, it's a good answer. I also want to say, I think behind this question is also another question like how do I get My partner to be more engaged in our relationship. That is something that we see all the time in male, female relationships. Is women feeling like, you know, I'm the one actively working on the relationship, trying to make it better, wanting us to, like, go deeper with each other. And sometimes it can feel like men are just. Just happy with the status quo or like, I'm just here, whatever. So I did want to do a little shout out for our membership, Deeper, which is designed to help couples go deeper with each other, to create more intimacy, to have that kind of closeness and connection physically and emotionally, that we all are always wanting. And we really designed the membership to make this as simple, straightforward, and easy as possible. Because intimacy really can feel like a very huge puzzle that none of us knows how to put together.

It is a big puzzle, but there are specific things that you can do. There's some pathways that we figured out that are shortcuts to getting that puzzle done.

So we'll tell you a little bit more about that at the end of the episode. Or you can also just go straight to vmtherapy.com deeper to check that out. Okay. We're gonna do some rapid fires.

Okay.

There are a couple of, like, real specific things that women were curious about. What do men really think about leg hair?

How much leg hair?

Any leg hair?

I mean, look, I. You will say, oh, my God, my legs are so hairy, I won't notice. Like, it needs to be real, real long for me to. To. To really notice it.

Are my legs hairy right now?

No.

You sure about that?

No, I'm not sure, but to me, to me, I don't ever have the experience of your legs being hairy. Okay.

Because sometimes I go a real long time without shaving them. I don't think you've ever. Yeah. You've never. There have been times where I'm like, whoa. And you've never, like, even noticed?

Yeah, I mean, I think if. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I would think if, say, like, you didn't shave your legs at all. I don't know. It's really hard for me to say because you've. You've always shaved your legs.

What if I didn't want to shave my legs?

Yeah. I don't know. I. I'd have to see how that goes. I don't think I would be unattracted to you. I genuinely don't know. Wanna try it out?

No, not really. But I respect people's body autonomy, and for some people, like, they don't want to deal with the hassle of it. Some people, like, genuinely like the way that their leg hair looks. Some people are like, fuck the patriarchy. I'm not shaving my legs. So body hair can be actually a pretty political issue.

Yeah, I know. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I think, like, I think the reality is, is that we. We all have preferences about each other bodies and hygiene. I think it's just a matter of, like, are we able to express those in a. In a supportive and reasonable way. Like, for example, you have a very strong preference for me to have facial hair. Yes. Like, you would be very upset if I shaved my beard, for example. And so I. I don't know. I do. Like, my beard has been a part of how I look for, like, the last almost 14 years. So it's really hard to know what I would look like without the beard. Sometimes I'm curious about it, but I go, you know what? Vanessa really prefers me to have the beard. I'll keep the beard. And so I think that, like, I do think that. Yeah, like, if you were, you know, I don't know, like, if you were to say, you know what? I'm really sick of shaving my leg hair. I want to see what it's like with. With hair on my legs. I think it would be reasonable. Like, I think it would be fair and reasonable to be like, you know what? For the last 18 years, I've not really had leg hair. I'm curious about. Let's look at this as an experiment and like, like, like, let's check in together about how we're feeling about it. Like, totally understanding. Like, like, I totally understand that you might have some preferences around it. And, like, let's talk about it rather than like, hey, I'm gonna do this, and you'd better be okay with it. Cause the reality is, is, like, that's a tricky one. Like, I could be, like, I could be like, baby, I'm shaving my face today. And you don't get to say anything about it.

I mean, it's.

I know it will affect. But it will affect your attractiveness, your attraction to me.

I know that it is all about the delivery, and it's all about, like, I think you and I both recog that each of us has body autonomy. It's my body. I can do whatever I want with my body. That's your body. You can do whatever you want with your body. We do express preferences to each other about really just the beard is the only thing I care About. But, like, yeah, it's done in a respectful way where I've said to you, like, yeah, I think you look smoking hot with a beard. I love having your beard. But, like, I'm not going to be. I'm not not trying to control you or manipulate you. I wouldn't be, like, you know, punish you or get angry at you if you did shave your beard, you know, so it's like, the. The emotional tone around it is very important. I didn't think we'd get so deep with leg hair.

Yeah. I mean, but it is a tricky topic because it's like, yeah, we are allowed to have preferences, and I think that it's like, there is a way to be able to respectfully express those preferences. I think that we're. Yeah. If I was like, no, if you. If you stop shaving your legs, I won't want to have sex with you.

Yeah, no, that's not okay.

Like, that's. That's not okay. That says more about me.

Yeah.

Than it says about you in terms of, like, what kind of partner I am. But I do think that, you know, it would be fair if you were like, hey, it's been three months since I shagged my legs. Like, what do you think? I think it'd be fair to me. Me be like, hey, I. I really support you doing what you want with your body. And I think, you know, I've realized over the last three months, like, I do have a preference for, you know, I. I think that if it were up to me, like, I prefer the shaved legs. I think so.

Yeah.

I'm still. I'm still attracted to you. I'm still attracted to you. You know, the legs are a small thing, but, like, I definitely do have a preference, you know, this way or, you know, of the other.

I think that's fair. Okay. What do men really think about messy buns?

I'm. I don't know if I honestly would be able to pick out a messy bun versus a tidy bun. What would you call a tight bun?

Yeah, tight buns.

A tight bun.

Like, messy. Okay, I'll show you. Like, messy bun would just be. It's like you go like. Like, and it's just thrown up like that versus that's, like, how my hair is most of the time. It's just, like, thrown up in a messy bun versus, like a, you know, pretend my hair is brushed, but, like, then I'm doing, like, a little twist.

I think I might, like. I might like the messy one better, honestly.

So that's like, A little.

You know, I think I might like the messy one better.

Oh, yeah.

If we're comparing this. I like. Speaking of preferences, I think it's sexy when you do a ponytail. That's my favorite.

Ponytail's so funny to me.

I like it.

I never have my. I had my hair run a ponytail at the gym this morning.

Oh.

And I didn't notice.

But you know what? I think that most of that.

Wait, what about ponytail versus down ponytail? Really? You'd rather me have my hair in a ponytail than down?

I like it. It's, like, sporty.

Oh, sporty.

Yeah, I like it, but I hate to say it, ladies. I think the vast majority of men don't really give a shit about what position your hair is in and don't know if you are having a messy bun or a non messy bun. A clean bun.

Okay. Thick fake eyelashes. Do you know the kind I'm talking about?

That I'm not sure, but when they.

Kind of look like there's, like, big caterpillars on your eyes.

Oh, I don't like that. I don't love that.

Do you want to see a picture?

Yeah.

Okay.

I. I. But, like, I have to caveat this with, like, I am generally a fan of zero to very minimal makeup. That. That's just me. I know different men have different preferences. Yeah. Not into that.

When you can tell that they're like.

Yeah, I'm really not into that.

Personally, I'm not into that either. I think this is such a dumb.

Speak for all men on this. I think that maybe some men are, but honestly, I hate fake eyelashes. Honestly, I really do think that with most makeup choices, I think that most women are doing that, if we're being really honest, are doing it for other women more so than for men.

That's true. Yeah. I've never been a big makeup person, and I'm really, like, in a very little makeup phase right now. Like, I'm putting some serum in my brows, and I'm putting on mascara, and that's it. Just really mascara most days. But I'm also doing, like, the brushing my eyebrows up trend, which we're gonna look back on in, like, 10 years and be like, what were we all doing? Brushing our eyebrows up. They look like d. Little caterpillars. But I'm not into the fake eyelet. I like a. Sometimes when I get my makeup done for photo shoots, she'll put on individual fake eyelashes. So it just makes me look like I have a little bit more eyelashes. But I don't like when you can see it's very obviously a strip, and it looks so thick and so long, and it's just so obviously, I want the fake eyelashes to look like real eyelashes.

Some men must be into that. Maybe. I don't know. We'd have to ask a lot of other men. We got to pull that on Instagram.

Yeah. I don't know.

I've never. You know, eyelashes are something I just don't really notice. I've never seen someone have been like, oh, my God, her eyelashes. I mean, really, it's like. It's like the entire face. The face and. Or even just like, the face and body. Like, everything as a whole. I'm not, like, picking it apart. Oh, God, though. Oh, that's hot. That's hot. That's not hot. That's not hot. Like, it's the overall. It's the overall look and vibe and energy.

Would you say that men in general prefer less makeup than women do?

Probably. Probably. I mean, I've never. Okay. I've never heard a guy be like, oh, God, I wish she'd wear more makeup. I wish she'd wear a full beat. I've never. Things I've never heard a man say.

Okay, and here's our last one. What do men really think about wide leg versus skinny jeans?

Oh, man. I saw. I showed you a reel the other day about this. We're, like, baggy. It was, like, baggy jeans and, like, the guy's, like, on the floor crying because he wants to, like, see her figure in the jeans on.

What kind of jeans do you prefer?

I think I prefer the skinny ones, but it's, like, a small preference. I. You've got some. I mean, you don't. You haven't really done any, like, ultra, ultra baggy.

I've got some.

Have you?

Yeah. I mean, I was wearing yesterday, like, those barely.

God, I don't remember.

Those barely sit on my hips.

I don't. I obviously don't care very much because I don't remember them. This on.

They're pretty baggy.

I do think that. I do think what? Because this has been a trend for a couple of years now. I think I've gotten. I've acclimated to it.

Okay.

I've acclimated to it. I like seeing your ass.

I mean, I have. That's what I try to go for with my wide leg jeans, where it's showing off the butt. It's a little tight on the butt, but then the legs get wider.

Yeah. Well, you've got a great ass. And I enjoy when you show it off. So yeah, I guess to me it doesn't really matter that much. You're short and your legs are low to the ground, so I don't like see them that much.

What are you looking at then?

Your face?

Your butt actually, you're really just looking at the top of your butt, which is so sad. I don't think that's my most flattering angle.

That's the one I get.

Okay, so slight preference for skinny jeans because they show off more of the body.

Yeah, like the silhouette.

What about like, I, okay, like yoga pants? Do you like yoga pants? Because.

Okay, yeah, yoga pants are hot. Um, yeah, I like seeing the figure. But again, it's like a small preference. I, I, but to be like, to be fair, I don't think I've ever seen so like a woman in really baggy jeans have been like, oh my God, those jeans are smok hot.

But could you imagine seeing a woman where like overall the vibe was just smoking hot, where you're not paying specific attention to the jeans.

But I mean, I guess what could be fun is like, oh, like what's under those jeans? Like what am I, what are we gonna get?

You never know. Cause they're real baggy.

Like, yeah, like what are you gonna get? Like it's unwrapping a present. Like, I don't know what's in there. Is it a tiny present in a big box or is it a big present in a big box? I don't know.

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All right, well, we're gonna call it a day there. Thank you for speaking for all men again. Are you nervous at all?

I'm always a little nervous.

Really?

Yeah. It's a lot of pressure.

Okay. Well, hopefully we'll do this again. Maybe we won't wait quite as long.

Yeah.

Episode 69 to 213. All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We new episodes every Thursday.