EPISODE 215: Mismatched Sex Drive Types: The #1 Reason Couples Struggle With Desire

So the first sex drive type is spontaneous, and that's where you feel mental desire first, then physical arousal second. The second sex drive type is responsive, and it's the exact opposite. You feel physical arousal first, then the mental desire second. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Does it feel like you and your partner are never on the same page when it comes to sexual? If so, you are definitely not alone. So today we are going to be sharing with you some of the most life changing, game changing information that we've maybe ever shared. And this is the two sex drive types.

Yeah, I wish this was information that was shared with me as a teenager. I wish it was shared with me when I was in college. I wish it was shared with me.

At the beginning of our relationship.

Yeah, when I first started dating anyone, let alone you. And yeah, I wish this wasn't something that I only discovered partway into our relationship when I was already really feeling bad about myself for a lot of this stuff. Like I, I did myself a lot of damage for a lot of years and it took me a lot of years to undo that. Even though you, you know, learn this stuff and you go, oh, shoot. Actually, maybe this, these beliefs I've had about myself are not entirely accurate. It's one thing to have that realization, it's a whole other thing to actually recover from. The, you know, the thing, the ways that you've hurt yourself by negative self talk and you know, you know, dynamics in your relationship that don't feel good.

Yeah, if we had had this information in our relationship, we would have saved ourselves so much pain and struggle and disagreements, Time, energy, all the stuff, man. Yeah. Anytime we talk about the two sex drive types on Instagram, we, we get so many DMs, people just saying, like, this changed my life. I can't believe I didn't know this before. Like, I'm crying tears of gratitude. It's really, really impactful information that. It's just sad that most people still don't know this. So today we're gonna get into what the two Types are how to know which type you are, what your type needs to get turned on, and what it means for your relationship if your partner is a different type.

Because they probably are. Spoiler alert.

Spoiler alert. They almost certainly are. Okay, so first we have to talk about the two ways that we get turned on and ready for sex.

So they're basically because there's actually two. I think a lot of people initially just go, oh, well, like, being turned on, or, like, have, like, being horny, having a libido that's just like. That is a thing in and of itself. It's like, I'm horny. I'm not horny. There's no idea that there's actually, like, multiple factors that go into it.

So mental desire is when sex sounds good. Like, the idea of sex sounds enticing and exciting. And then physical arousal is when our bodies are getting ready to have sex. So for people with penises, physical arousal means getting an erection, the testicles tightening and lifting up. For people with vaginas, it means getting lubricated. For all of us, it means nipples getting hard, heart rate increasing, breath deepening, blood starting to rush to the genitals. So like Xander was saying a second ago, like, a lot of people think of desire and arousal, like, mental desire, physical arousal, as the same thing, and that both should happen at the same time. So there's this idea that, like, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you feel interested in sex. Your body's totally ready to go. It's just game on. But in reality, these two processes happen separately, and your sex drive type depends on where you initially feel interested in being intimate. Does it happen first in your head or first in your body?

So I do want to just jump in here quickly and. And say to all the men out there, there, I. There's a really easy example that shows you why these two things don't always happen or, you know, almost never happen at the exact same time. So think back to your teenage years. Think back to the joys of going through puberty and having those hormones raging through your brain and your body. Think about all those times that you got real inopportune boners, right? Like, I'm talking middle of math class. You're, like, trying to do the math problems. There's two minutes until class is over, and, like, boom, you're rock hard. You don't want that thing right then, right? You know, you got to get up to go to the next class in a couple of minutes. Like, what are you going to do with this? Thing like, I'm trying to do.

What are you going to do with this thing?

What am I going to do with this thing? Like, you know, it's like, you know, it's really inopportune. And so, yeah, it's important to remind ourselves, like, yeah, there. This can. These things can happen totally independently. They can happen in one direction. You can have physical arousal, then you can have mental arousal. They can go in the other direction, you can have mental arousal, and then you get physically aroused. You can have mental arousal without having any physical arousal. Right. Like, you probably thought about sex in the middle of the day. You didn't immediately get hard and be like, oh, my God, I gotta have sex. And same is true. You can have that physical arousal at. Right. Random moments. It still happens to me. I'm an adult.

Yeah.

And I'm like, God damn, come on. Like, this. This isn't what I want right now, but yet this is what I have.

So, like, at a museum.

Yeah, like at a museum, man, I. Something about you, like, standing around or moving very slowly, very slowly, and, like, having it, like, just like, you know, kind of like rub against your underwear a little. I don't know, man. I don't like it. I don't like it.

It's the narb. The no apparent reason boner. Yeah, it is.

And what I mean. Same. Same can be true.

Yeah. People of all genders can experience these things happening at separate times. Like, our bodies and our brains are not on the same page very often in life. Like, you can be totally wet and not be interested in having sex. You can be super mentally interested in having sex, but not at all wet. Like, you're completely dry and, like, what is going on? So it's interesting, like, we've all had these physical experiences of our bodies and our brains not being on the same page, but a lot of us, like, just don't recognize that that's what's happening.

All right, question from my male curiosity. Do you. Is it ever, like, for you as a woman, is it ever particularly inopportune, like, you know, I just described, like, getting a boner in a moment where, like, you shouldn't have a boner. Like, is it. Are there ever any, like, adverse impacts to say, like, getting wet in the middle of something?

No, it would be a no apparent reason. Wetness.

Narwhal. Narwhal.

Narwh. I love that. No, I mean, I think a boner is more difficult because it's like, you can see it, you know, it takes up physical Space. Yeah. You're, like, getting nervous about, like, oh, my God, are other people seeing that I have a boner? Or you have to do that awkward, like, grab it and tuck it thing? No, I mean, I've been. There have been times where I'm like, oh, I'm, like, really wet right now. What is going on? But nobody. I'm not worried about anybody being able to see that. So it's like. There's not any.

It's not. It doesn't, like, impact your ability to walk or anything?

No, it does not.

Man. You got a good. You got it good.

Okay. On a serious note, though, I wanted to share one other, like, the most extreme example of the difference between mental desire and physical arousal that, like, really illustrates how independently these processes can work. So this can happen during sexual assault. Your body can physically respond during the assault, even though your brain knows 1000% without a doubt, like, I don't want this happening. This is not okay. My boundaries are being violated. This is unsafe. This is painful. This is scary. Like, our bodies still respond.

Yeah, you're in, like, absolute fight or flight mode. You're probably in a lot of pain. You're in, like, overloaded with fear.

Yeah. Your body can still respond. And this can cause so much shame for survivors. They think, like, well, did I, like, secretly want this? Or, like, what's wrong with me? Like, people can even have orgasms when they're being assaulted. It's a really confusing and scary experience, but I just want to normalize. Like, that is something that happens. That is a thing. It does not mean that you wanted it. It does not mean that the assault was okay. That just is a perfect example of. Our bodies sometimes respond in a very different way than our brains are responding.

Yeah. And we've talked about this in other podcasts, and this is. I'm not making any kind of comparison to the situation that you just described. This completely separate example. But, yeah, we talk about all the time how it's also totally not only possible. Happens all the time, that say a man really has a lot of mental desire. They really want to have sex. Maybe they've even started having sex with their partner, and then they lose their erection. They're still really aroused mentally. They really want to be doing it. They're excited. They're excited to be there with their partner. They want their partner to feel pleasure, and then yet they've lost, you know, they've lost their sort of, like, their physical. The. The physical reminders of that. Right. Like, the erection and, you know, and that can also create a lot of shame in, in a different way. Like the partner can feel really bad, like oh my God, did I do something wrong? Is something wrong with my partner? You know, the guy is thinking like oh my God, this is. I feel so ashamed. Like I'm supposed to be ready to go all the time and, and it can be really hard to reconcile like, like what the hell is wrong with me? I want this so bad. I want this so bad. I want my body to respond so bad. It's not doing it. What does that say about me? So yeah, I mean this has, it can have so many adverse impacts and be such a mind fuck in so many different ways to people in different situations.

And the term for this is actually called arousal non concordance and women are more likely to experience it than men. So with women there's actually only about a 10% of overlap between mental desire and physical arousal and with men there's about a 50% overlap. One of the best parts about having a partner is sharing everything with them, including your fantasies. Whether you're looking to set the mood, try something new, or just share a little excitement, Dipsea's spicy audio stories are the best way for you and your partner to accept explore something new. If you haven't heard about Dipsea before, we are very excited to introduce you. Dipsea is a female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more. Created by women for the female gaze. Their app has over a thousand spicy audiobooks all crafted by a team of professional writers and top tier narrators. So it's very fun for you to listen to on your own. Maybe get you a little excited for some connection time with your partner later. But you can also listen with your partner. It can be super sexy and just like our podcast, it can be a great conversation opener like talking about things that you are hearing in these stories. Stuff that you wanna play around with in your own relationship. It's just such a great way to get some ideas going. Right now you can get a 30 day free trial plus 25% off your annual subscription when you go to dipsystories.compillow that's-I p s e-a stories.compillow for 30 days. 30 free days and 25% off your subscription. Dipsystories.compillow just last week we were out of town with a bunch of friends and we had to split the bill at a restaurant and we had the most disastrous time trying to figure out how to pay the one person back who like one person covered the whole bill and Everybody was supposed to send money to him. It was just so frustrating. Like, nobody could get different apps to work. It was taking forever. It was just this big mess. So that's why we are very excited to talk to you about Cash App because it is a completely different experience. Fast, easy, and safe. Cash App is super easy to set up. Just enter your phone or email, some basic information. No bank account needed, and there's no waiting. The money shows up right away. It's also totally secure and safe. Cash App has your back. If you're about to send money to a sketchy account, a scam warning pops up so you can feel more relaxed knowing that Cash App is protecting you and your money. Cash App is fast, safe, and it just makes life way less stressful. For a limited time, only new Cash App users can use our exclusive code to earn some additional cash. For real. There is no catch. Just download Cash App and sign up. Use our exclusive referral code pillow in your profile. Send $5 to a friend within 14 days and you'll get $10 dropped right into your account. Like, $5 of free money right away. Like, why not? Terms apply. That's money. That's Cash App. Okay, so that was all a very long introduction to our two different sex drive types, but we needed that background first. So the two sex drive types are dependent on where you feel arousal first. So the first sex drive type is spontaneous, and that's where you feel mental desire first, then physical arousal second. The second sex drive type is responsive, and it's the exact opposite. You feel physical arousal first, then the mental desire second. Okay, so let's start with spontaneous desire. Again, this is like you're just kind of going about your day when all of a sudden the idea of sex pops into your head. It sounds good. Spontaneous desire is what we see on TV and movies. So this is how most people think desire is supposed to work. Like, it just. Just pops up out of nowhere. We get excited and ready for sex. Okay, so, Xander, I want you to walk us through a little bit more info about spontaneous sex drive. Because research has found that about 70% of men and only about 15% of women experience spontaneous desire.

All right, well, let me give you a couple ways that you might know if you have spontaneous desire. So, number one, I think the easiest way to identify this is that if you find that you are feeling desire for sex and at seemingly random points throughout the day, like, maybe you're in the middle of a work meeting, and then all of a sudden you're having distracting thoughts or you're mowing the lawn and then all of a sudden you're thinking about mowing something else down. Whoa. Or maybe you are just sitting on the toilet, minding your own business, and all of a sudden you know, you're thinking about things like that is. That is a. That's a really good sign that you. Spontaneous desire. You are spontaneously thinking about sex, spontaneously getting mental desire throughout the day. Another sign is that if you're sometimes feeling the desire for sex or you notice that you feel the desire for sex before your body is responding. So, like, you're in the mood but you don't have an erection, or if you have a vulva, like you're in the mood but you're finding that you're not wet yet, you haven't had any other physical response yet, that could be a good sign that you're also spontaneous. Another sign is that if you're the one that is usually initiating sex in your relationship, probably you have a more spontaneous sex drive. Unless, maybe unless you pers. Unless you initiate. But like, you initiate very rarely. If you're initiating most of the time and initiating somewhat frequently, you probably have spontaneous sex drive. Not only that, probably, I would venture a guess that your partner has responsive sex drive and you've kind of fallen into the typical gender dynamic of, oh, well, the man initiates sex because he wants it more often and your partner doesn't because they're not thinking of it all the time like you are. If it seems like you want sex more frequently than your partner, that's a good sign that you might be spontaneous. Though I do want to say the key word there is seem like, if it seems like you want sex more because it may not be actually the case as we're going to talk about in a minute. Also, if you just find yourself turned on in a whole variety of different situations, like maybe when your in laws are staying over at the house and you're like, hey, I'm still thinking about sex. And your partner's like, what is wrong with you? Like, the in laws are here. We are not thinking about sex. We're not talking about sex. We're not having sex. That's a good sign that you might be spontaneous as well.

Okay, so next, let's talk about responsive desire, because this looks very different. So research has found that about 85% of women experience responsive desire and only about like 25 to 30% of men. So here are some ways to know that you might have a responsive sex drive. If you rarely think about sex if sex doesn't sound tempting until you're getting started or you're in the middle of it. And actually, this is one of the classic key ways to know that you have responsive desire is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex, and you catch yourself thinking, this is fun. Why do I never seem to want this? That is responsive desire all the way.

Yeah. Or it's like, especially. It's like, you have that thought because, like, I. I have that thought sometimes, too, where I'm like, oh, my God. I like, like, why don't I want to do this more? Why don't I want to do that more? I think the difference, though, is that it's like, if you have that thought and you're like, yeah, I like, we should do this all the time. And then you don't think that thought again until you have sex the next time. Like, there's no action that is taken on it. Your. Your brain doesn't go back to it. For, you know, for my experience very often is that I'm, like, thinking all kinds of things and we are in the middle of it. Then I have an orgasm, and then I'm like, into the refractory period, and I'm like, sex is the last thing on my mind right now. And then a couple hours later, it's back.

Okay, you might have responsive sex drive if you rarely initiate sex with your partner. If you seem to want sex less frequently than your partner. Again, we're going to get back to that in a second. Or if it feels like the situation needs to be just right in order for you to be turned on. Like, the bedroom has to be tidy. The kids have to be asleep. You have to be fresh out of the shower. Like, that can be another sign of responsive sex drive. So here's a simple way to sum up the two types. Spontaneous desire is feel turned on, then start having sex. And responsive desire is start having sex, then feel turned on.

And I think it's fair to say if you could, you can also add more often than not, like, to the beginning of each of these, like, it's not. It doesn't have to be. It might be totally black and white for you. You're like, Yep, that is 100% me. That other one is 0% me. But I think if you're like most people, it's a gray area. And if it's like, yeah, more often than not, this is how I behave.

Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up, because sometimes when we share about this, people are like, oh, but, like, it feels like sometimes I've experienced both. Like, this model is not meant to totally compartmentalize you. Like, most people will experience both kinds of desire. It's just like, which one do you experience the most often?

Yeah. So if you can figure out, okay, more often than not, this one is me, and more often than not, this other one is my partner, that at least helps us start to talk about, you know, with our partner. Okay, how should we expect this to work in our relationship? What should we plan for, to optimize, you know, the situation for what we most commonly experience? And of course, yeah, it can go the other way. Things can change. But I think it's good to be prepared for what is more often than not the case in your relationship.

Yeah. So most people think that spontaneous desire is better. I mentioned a few minutes ago, like, this is how we always see it on TV and in the movies. So most of us have grown up, like, watching those sex scenes over and over and over again, and we feel like that's how desire is supposed to work. So if you don't feel that mental desire out of nowhere, it doesn't just, like, pop into your head. You're not randomly getting horny at various points throughout the day. You probably think that something is wrong with you. And the real problem is most people don't even know that responsive desire exists. So there are so many women who are judging themselves, feeling like, something's wrong with me, I'm broken, I have low desire, I have no desire. But they just don't know that there's a different kind of desire.

And there's so many people out there, partners of people with responsive desire, who are thinking, my partner never wants sex. It feels like the stars have to align in this, like, one in a million way for my partner to ever want it. Like, what is wrong with them? And in fact, nothing is wrong with them. It's just that. Yeah. When you're not taking any action beyond, like, what works for you as a spontaneous type, then, yeah, of course the stars have to align. But. But it's actually in your power to make the stars align far more often than you would think is possible right now.

Yeah. So the reality is neither type is better than the other. Spontaneous type is not easier than responsive desire. They both have their own joys. They both have their own challenges.

So the joy, spontaneous desire, I mean, that can just be like that sex is popping into your head at seemingly random moments throughout the day, and that in and of itself can be super fun.

And the joy of having responsive desire is that it can actually invite you to be much more connected to your body, because that's what you need to stimulate first. Like, most of us need to be more connected to our bodies. So it is like, a nice way that it invites you to do that.

But both of these types can also have their own challenges too, right? So, yeah, of course it's fun to be randomly thinking about sex, but it's not always fun. Like, there. There can be definitely inopportune moments. And people with spontaneous sex drive can experience a lot more performance than people with responsive sex drive. And for most people, we kind of touched on this earlier, that, you know, unless you've been following us for a long time, unless you've been having a lot of the conversations that we suggest that you have, Having a performance issue can be a really deeply humiliating experience. Like, we definitely don't believe that it should be a deeply humiliating experience, but unfortunately, it often is because of the ideas that we have about how sex is supposed to go and, you know, gendered ideas about. About satin. Also, like, your partner might take a performance issue personally, and worrying that's a sign you're not attracted to them. Or you might even just be worried that your partner is going to think that. And so you're in your head about.

It, but you even think that, like, oh, my God, is this some, like, secret sign that I'm not attracted to my partner?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. We hear from people all the time being like, yeah, this is happening to me. Like, what does it say about me? What does it say about my relationship with my partner? It's like, well, no, you got to tell me how you feel about your partner. I can't tell you how you feel about your partner based on something that your body is doing. So, yeah, that can be a really. Just generally confusing experience and a challenging thing to handle.

And if you're a responsive sex drive type. I already talked about this a little bit, but the challenge is that most people don't even know this exists. So a lot of people are judging themselves as being low desire or no desire. Like, I'm just never interested in sex. I never want to have it.

It.

But again, it's just because you don't understand how your desire actually works.

Yeah, I mean, I can say from personal experience, I feel like I've. I've experienced all of these, honestly. Like, I've definitely been on my own journey when it comes to. To my sex drive and sex drive type. And I think, like, early on in our relationship, I definitely related more on the responsive side. I definitely had spontaneous moments, but I was a bit more responsive. And, you know, there were some things that happened on in our relationship when I was, like, working super hard, super long, late hours, wasn't taking very good care of myself. So the time that we did have together, I wasn't really being my best self, wasn't really particularly open to sex, and we got in a lot of arguments about that. And I had a number of performance issues that led to performance anxiety. And that was just sort of like this downward spiral where, you know, I was probably already a bit responsive to begin with. And then I got really responsive because I was kind of scared about the idea of sex because I wasn't performing very well, and I didn't have very much free time to actually, like, be able to be intimate with Vanessa. And so that was definitely really challenging. And that took me, you know, and that was around the time that we kind of started discovering this, you know, these two types and started to talk about it. And so that was when I started unwinding, like, what this really meant for me and trying to, you know. So it's like I said earlier, it's one thing to know know, oh, okay, I'm responsive. Therefore, I need X, Y, and Z in order to want sex more. It's another thing to put that into practice and kind of. And really, like, unwind all the shame that I had developed around that. That honestly took me a really long time. And I feel like, you know, as I started to get rid of more and more of that shame and feel just good about myself and my own sexuality and, you know, and start having really amazing sex with Vanessa. Once I started tying together that, oh, okay, when we have sex, we feel really close, and I like the way that feels. I want to feel that more and more. Then I kind of started, like, almost developing a more spontaneous sex drive, because I would be like, hey, I want that feeling that we get after we've had sex. I want to feel, like, that unstoppable feeling that we have. And then all of a sudden, I was. And then once I made the connection o. The way I get that is we have sex, then it's like I start thinking about sex more. So, yeah, it's like, I can. I can definitely relate with both of these things. Also, in the last, like, six months or so, I've been on a testosterone replacement journey, and so I've been dialing in my own testosterone levels, and I Can definitely say that there have been some moments where, you know, we've kind of, like, overshot the mark on those levels. And. And, wow. It is definitely possible to be thinking about sex a little too much in too many situations where it is genuinely distracting. And I think that, you know, I think for a lot of people that are like, oh, yeah, well, wouldn't it be nice to just be thinking about sex all the time? I can tell you, no, it is not nice to always be thinking about sex. Like, there were a couple of moments where I was like, ooh, okay. Yep. We're. Yep. Like, let's get those levels tested and maybe dial it back a little bit. Because this is. This is like, like, you know, not necessarily pleasant.

Yeah. So on my end of it, I have primarily identified with spontaneous desire. So this is. We're, you know, in the beginning of our relationship and for long periods of our relationship, like, we were that opposite gender dynamic where I was more spontaneous, you were more responsive. And because we didn't know about that. So at first it was like, we didn't know about the two sex drive types. And we were really struggling to figure out, like, how to connect with each.

Other and how to communicate about it. That was the biggest. Like, we just didn't know how to.

Initiate, how to get started. Yeah, it was really, really difficult. Then once we found out about the two sex drive types, it was like, oh, my God, this makes so much sense. It's so interesting. But then there was this little, like a little bit of a layer of shame around being the opposite of what the typical gender dynamic is.

Oh, a little bit. I had more than a little bit.

Probably more so for you than for me. But it did like. Yeah, it felt a little like, oh, man, we're, you know, we're different. So we. We have really made a point to talk openly about that because we want to normalize for people. Like, yeah. Just because the majority of people are this one particular way, there are still plenty of people who fall into the opposite dynamic. So I will say, though, like, learning about responsive desire has been really useful for me because even though the way that my desire works is primarily that kind of mental out of nowhere, I also have had times where you've been interested in having sex, and I didn't feel that mental desire right in that very second. Cause I'm a different person, and it pops up for me at different random points.

Yeah. Spontaneous means spontaneous. Not all the time.

Yeah. And not like in the exact same moments that your partner happens to. So actually that lesson of, like, sometimes our bodies need to go first and then our brains catch up. That's been super useful for me too, where there have been times where, you know, you'll initiate. And if I'm not into it, I have developed that trust in myself of knowing, like, if we get going, I'm gonna get interested in it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I, I, I use that same thing now too, because I, yeah, I totally agree with you. When you are more spontaneous, you know, like, I don't necessarily have this experience because I've totally worked through the, like, performance thing from the other end. But I think, do think that a lot of, you know, if we're just gonna get gender stereotypical for a second. A lot of men that experience spontaneous sex Dr. To it going in specific order. I have a thought about sex, then I go initiate it, and then, like, my body responds. And so it's really easy to just kind of have it hardwired. This is the way that it works. So if my partner says something about sex or, like, tries to initiate in a moment that surprises me where I'm not thinking about that, you immediately go to like, oh, my God, I'm not ready. And it's like, you can almost, like, polarize kind of. So instead of it being like, instead of thinking, oh, wow, I think about sex all the time, and, you know, I initiate sex a lot and, you know, don't always get. My partner doesn't always say yes. Oh, my God, this is amazing. My partner's initiating. This is a chance for me to say yes. You go, what the hell? Like, I wasn't thinking about this. We got to shut this down. And I think a lot of men, they're not trying to be and, and when they kind of shut that down, but they'll often deflect in kind of in, in hurtful ways. They're not realizing it's hurtful. They're doing it in a protective way for themselves, being like, I'm not ready. I, I, I'm, I'm a man. I'm supposed to be able to perform whenever, wherever, but I'm clearly, my body isn't, isn't ready right now, so how could we possibly do this? And so I think a lot of men will, like, like, laugh at their partners or kind of, like, make a joke, like, and that just won't. And then that feels horrible to the partner. And then they don't want to initiate anymore. And, and, you know, it kind of pushes us further into this standoff where it's like, okay. Oh, I shouldn't initiate. I'll just let my partner do it.

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Yeah. Because someone with responsive desire is literally hearing, does the idea of sex sound good to you right now? And they are literally going, no, it doesn't.

Yeah. I mean, I think that if you ask somebody with a responsive desire, do you want to have sex right now, like 99.9 times out of 100, the answer is going to be no because they haven't had any physical stimulation, any physical arousal yet. So this way that we are initiating just does not work for people with responsive desire. So instead we need to rejigger the order of things. We can't expect that somebody is turned on first and then decides to have sex. Like if your partner has responsive desire, they need physical stimulation before they can properly gauge whether they are interested in continuing or not. So you have to have some sort of way that you're being physical with each other. So first I want to set a couple of conditions here because people can get a little bit nervous about this. Like, well, wait a minute, like, doesn't this bring up issues of consent? Like you're telling me to have sex when I'm not interested in having sex. So we gotta be, we gotta tread carefully here.

Yeah. I think so many people hear this and go, oh, so you're telling me to start having sex. That is not what we are saying we are talking about. Physical arousal can mean all kinds of different things. It doesn't mean like hands on genitals.

Yeah. So it's just some sort of physical stimulation. So if you have responsive desire, you have to take a little bit of time to think about the kind of physical stimulation that's going to feel relaxing and exciting to you, but is also something that you feel comfortable doing with your partner. Like before agreeing to continue or not.

Question for you, when you say exciting, are you meaning like sexually exciting or are we just talking about like something that feels somewhat enjoyable?

I would say at the beginning to start with just something that feels enjoyable. So like keeping it really simple like massage or cuddling or making out, like something that feels a little bit more like on the tame side, but it's still some sort of physical stimulation.

Yeah. So something that's like helping you feel into your body.

Yeah.

Because I think if you ask most people, people the responsive sex drive type, they would tell you, okay, yeah. In those moments when I get to really relax and feel into my body, then all of a sudden, sex starts to sound good.

Yeah. So as you continue experimenting and the two of you start communicating about this more openly, feeling more comfortable, maybe you up the ante a little bit and you say, my desire really doesn't kick in until I'm actually starting to have. Have, like, you're touching my boobs or my butt or my genitals, you know, so you can agree to do that. But there's still, like, we're changing the point of when we're saying yes to sex. It's not like, okay, we're, you know, completely clothed, zero contact. I agree to have sex with you right now. It's like we're moving the yes into the interaction.

Yeah. And that is going to. Yeah. Like you. Like you said, that shouldn't be something that you start doing. Doing right now. This is something that you have to build trust in. Build the trust after having a number of reps where it's like, oh, okay, yeah, Once. Once we have some relaxing physical touch, and then I start to have the experience of, ah, yes. After, you know, five or ten minutes of this. Yep. Then. Then the idea of more is starting to sound good. Once you have those reps where it's like, oh, yeah, pretty much every single time we do this, then I'm starting to want sex. And then we have sex, and it's really good. Once you then have that connection, that trust. Oh, yeah. When we do this, this happens 90 to 100% of the time. Then you can be like, okay, yeah, I think I feel good about skipping and skipping into the next part where it's like, okay, yeah, you could start fingering me. Because I know that two minutes into that, I'm like, yeah, let's go.

And I also just want to make sure we're being super clear in saying we're talking about the. This in the context of safe, trusting, loving relationships.

Yes.

Like, that has. You have to have that foundation with each other when. If your partner has not respected your boundaries, if they're pressuring you, guilting you. Like, we are not talking about those kinds of situations.

Yeah. And this is not like, yeah, just like, stick your hands down my pants at a random point in time. This is like, we've talked about having. We've agreed to have sex either right now, or we scheduled it for later, or we're talking about doing it later and we've talked about it. Maybe we're starting to kiss. We're starting to touch each other. Like, you know, all this stuff is happening. This isn't just like, yeah, just start at a random time.

Okay. So whenever we talk about this, inevitably someone asks, like, but won't that be annoying to my partner if, like, we get started and I don't end up getting turned on and then I have to, like, turn them down when they're even more excited about having sex?

I would turn that around and say, wouldn't it be annoying if you just never allowed yourself to have sex, which you know that you enjoy?

Yeah.

Because you're worried that maybe if you got started, you like. Like it's. It's worse for you than it is for your partner. Like, the alternative there is. Well, I guess you're just shit out of luck and you are never going to have an orgasm again.

Yeah. I mean, the reality is disappointment is always going to be a part of every couple's sex life. Like, you are never going to have a relationship where 100% of the time that you want sex, your partner's totally on board. 100% of the time they want sex, you're totally on board. Like, we are going to disappoint each other inside and outside of the bedroom. And so couples have to learn how to navigate those moments skillfully. This is something that we teach in our membership. Deeper. If you want to check it out, go to vmtherapy.com deeper we can also put a link in the show notes, but we teach, like, how to turn your partner down gently. How to navigate those moments when one person's in the mood, the other person isn't. How to sit with your own disappointment when your partner isn't interested in connecting.

How to ask a different question other than, do you want to have sex right now? Because as we already established, if your partner is responsive, that is the wrong question to ask. Because they don't want to have sex right then in that very moment. And so it is so important. I wish I could tell you what the one right question is. The reality is there are a whole lot of potentially right questions, which is what we lead you through in Deeper. Exactly what type. How to figure out exactly what types of questions are going to really appeal to your partner. Because there's. There's a whole variety of different ways to do this, and different ways are going to feel good to different types of people. People.

Another option that I want to mention is masturbating. Like, you could get started yourself. Create that physical arousal and see if you're interested in continuing going so A great trick for this if you have kids, is your partner handles bedtime while you have a little alone time. And then the two of you reconvene and you see if you're interested in continuing. I also want to mention, when it comes to initiation, both. Both partners have to initiate. We often hear from people, they're like, oh, well, I have responsive desire. So, like, I'm never going to initiate because, like, I just don't have that mental desire. Nope, sorry, doesn't work like that. Both partners have to take on that.

Responsibility because both partners want to feel wanted, like, at the end of the day in a relationship. Like, we're in a relationship because it feels good to be validated and wanted by the other person. And so it's not fair to be in a situation where you're just never going to give your partner, partner, that type of validation. And I think, like, you already kind of mentioned this idea of, like, oh, well, like, won't it be annoying if, like, I'm not actually up for it? I do think that people with responsive desire, like, we're not saying that people with responsive desire never think about sex. Like, you probably think about sex at a couple random times. It's just not coming to your mind all the time. And so I think a lot of people with responsive desire in the random moments that they might think about sex, are also probably really scared to share that with their partner because they're not feeling physically aroused in those moments. And it's like, oh, you know, say, like, you're at work or something and you have a nice little thought about, like, the last time you guys had sex or like, you have a random sexy thought. Like, I would say, go ahead and share that with your partner. I think a lot of people get scared of, oh, well, if I share that with my partner, they're going to want it the moment I get home. And I can't guarantee I'm going to be ready for that. And it's like, yeah, no, no one can ever guarantee that they're going to be ready for anything that they. Any plan that you make. Like, hey, let's go out for date night tonight. Like, hey, I might get home and have a horrible headache. Like, yeah, who knows? You might have to change your plans. But I think that, you know, if you're like, oh, God, I don't want to initiate. Like, at the very least, start thinking about, like, hey, if I'm ever thinking about anything sexy, like, just text your partner, let them know that you were thinking about them. I Think that's a really sweet thing to do.

The other piece of this is we have to discover the kind of touch that gets the responsive desire partner going.

Yeah. Because we talked about the, the first way to start this out, rather than being like, okay, yeah, let's just like jump into the foreplay is like, yeah. Let's give ourselves five to ten minutes of just some relaxing, enjoyable touch that's not necessarily sexual. Right. So how do we do that?

So we just created something brand new that we are super excited about.

Oh yeah.

The Sensual touch challenge, which is kicking off in July exclusively within our deeper membership. So this is a four week interactive experience that is going to guide you through specific types of touch all over the body. So let's be real, like in long term relationships we tend to get pretty lazy with our touch. Like I want to ask you, like, when was the last time that you felt genuinely excited by your partner's touch? Like if you're like most people, you're having a hard time coming up with an answer.

Yeah, I'm like month two of our relationship.

Relationship like touch just becomes very perfunctory. It's like, you know, you're kind of groping at your partner trying to get initiation going. And then even during sex itself, a lot of us really speed through the touch. It's like couple of like gropes and grabs and fondles and like quick little hand job or like just fingering you really quick to get you fat.

It's transactional.

Yeah, it's very transactional. And it doesn't feel fun or exciting anymore. It doesn't feel like, like remember the beginning of your relationship when it felt like your partner's fingertip crack could like set you on fire. Right?

Yeah. And it wasn't something that you just waited to do in the lead up to sex. Like you would touch each other like every everywhere. I don't mean everywhere all over your body, but like out in the world. Like you know, somewhere where you know, you're in the car driving to wherever, like you're not about to have sex right then and there. But it was so exciting to do that. Even if you knew that you weren't going to have sex. It was like it felt like a positive thing and then somehow it changes later on to be like, oh, this is inconvenient, like we don't want to do this. It's kind of like someone's going to want something and then we're going to be let down. And it's like you never thought that Way in the beginning.

Yeah. And I think now some of us might be having the thought of, like, yeah, I missed that. Like, I want to feel excited by my partner's touch again. But then it feels awkward. You're like, well, like, what do we do? I don't know.

If we start that, it's going to be weird.

Yeah. Like, it just, it feels very awkward. And so we're all about trying to break down the awkwardness and give you real practical, step by step tools. So we went on a deep dive exploration ourselves, like, into different kinds of touch. We have played around with so many different techniques. Like, we did all this research on different kinds of sensual touches, tried out different parts of the body. We're seriously, like, so excited about this challenge. And so we've put together some of our absolute favorite and created this little adventure for a couple to go on together where it's totally shame free. It's very fun, it's really sexy, and it's very low pressure too. Like, it's just all about, okay, here's the body part that we're exploring this week. The point is not to like that you need to have sex immediately afterwards. It's like just learning to explore each other's bodies again and have fun. And I think when you're just following along with something that feels so much lower pressure, it's a not like, you don't have to come up tonight and decide, like, oh, my God, what's some, like, crazy new thing I'm gonna try on my partner? And then what if they don't like it? It's like, oh, we're just like following along with this thing.

Yeah. And it's like a data collection exercise, figuring out which. Which body parts you respond better to. Cause I think the reality is like, you might find, yeah, some of these are like, okay, that was all right. And other ones, you're like, ooh, that really did it for me. I didn't realize that that or I didn't used to like being touched on this part of my body, like 10, 20 years ago. But now that we're doing it now, it feels totally different because. Spoiler alert. We change as we get older. Our, our desires, our preferences, and our likes totally change over time.

So if you're already a Deeper member, keep an eye out for the sensual touch challenge launching July 7th.

You got it for free.

And if you are not a member of Deeper, then this is the sign to join. So we also have a special offer just for our pillow talks listeners. We don't share this anywhere else, but only Pillow Talks listeners get 25% off their first month by using the Code Pillow at checkout. So head to vmtherapy.com touch to join us. Use that code pillow to get 25% off your first month, and let's have some fun together in the sensual touch challenge.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week because we release a new episodes every Thursday.