Episode 31: Should We Open Our Relationship?

I think a lot of us choose to be in monogamous relationships, but then there's also a lot of us who get into monogamous relationships because that's what society expects of us.

Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Another Pillow Talks podcast episode. Another Mariah Carey musical interlude. Xander.

Oh, no.

Can you sing Open Arms?

Never heard that song. Don't know it. Sorry.

Damn it.

Sorry. Not sorry.

I guess you're not as big of a Mariah Carey fan as I had hoped for.

I'm not as big of a Mariah Carey fan as you are, that's for sure.

Can you think of any other songs that have, like, the word open in them? You know, we gotta have, like, a little theme song for every episode.

With arms wide open.

No. Okay, that's the end of musical interludes in the podcast Podcast.

Nickelback, right? Oh, Creed. Creed.

Even worse, sorry to all the Creed.

Fans who are also fans of us. Are there any in existence? Are you a Creed fan? Hit us up on Instagram. Let us know, please. We're dying to know.

I am really dying to know.

With arms wide open. We are dying to know. We are. We will welcome you with arms wide open.

Scott Stapp. Is that his name? The lead singer, Scott Stapp of Pillow Talks podcast.

Vanessa knows the name of, like, every band that she was into back in the day.

Or not in decree.

I was about to. I was about to tell them bands that she knows or bands that she just doesn't like. She knows, like, the names of all the band members or at least like, the lead singer, short of, like, three bands. I didn't know the names of anybody.

In the bands, and yet I can't remember the names of interesting people that I meet that I want to be friends with, but I have a weird little hole in my brain to remember. Scott's Stapp. I think that's his name. The lead singer of Creed.

We do live in la. We could try to befriend more musicians.

Okay, I'll work on it. We'll start with Mariah Carey First. So if you haven't guessed. Well, you know, because you clicked on this podcast episode, you saw the title. We are talking about opening up our relationship. Well, not our relationship necessarily, but we will ask that question.

We'll talk about it.

Yeah, we will talk about it. Today we are going to be talking about whether or not you should open up your relationship. So we're gonna talk about. What do most people get wrong when they start thinking about opening their relationship? Some of the many, many misconceptions about open relationships.

Yeah, like what is it really? That's, I think what most people.

Oh, yeah.

We're starting what most people get wrong.

The things that you really need to consider. And we actually have 10 different key ingredients that you need to successfully open up your relationship. So this is gonna be a jam packed episode.

10 fingers for your arms wide open relationship.

Oh, no, babe. Oh, that's so bad. My dad will appreciate that joke, but he's about.

I was like, huh, 10, 10 fingers. We're talking about arms. You know, there's something here.

Oh, God, it's so bad. Just get to the review of the week.

Well, on that note, we're going to turn things around. Amazing. Wonderful. Spectacular. P, dot, dot, dot. I assume that was podcast that got cut off. Maybe it was a lot more adjectives.

Penis.

Spectacular. Penis.

Amazing. Wonderful.

Thank you.

Spectacular. Yeah.

This podcast is so awesome. I've always been shy about talking about sex and it has helped me learn how to talk about sex with my husband and gain confidence. Double heart. Double heart. Listening to this podcast feels like talking to some of your favorite longtime friends. Vanessa and Xander are so fun. Surrounded by little sparkly emojis. Charming blush face.

Look at you guys.

I have learned it's totally okay to have needs in the bedroom and be more confident in myself and my body, which has only helped my relationship with my husband. Thank you for providing this amazing resource each week. You guys. Rock. Rocker fingers.

Is there a name for that?

I was. I mean, I like, know exactly the devil horns. Yeah, I mean, it's like devil horn. You know, it's like punk rock. Punk rock. That's why I should have said.

All right.

If you know what the name for that symbol. Actually, the weird thing is in the emoji the thumb is being held in my recollection from, you know, my days going to concerts was. You stuck your pinky.

Oh, no, no, you stuck.

When like you stuck this out, you.

Suck your thumb out. No, you're thinking of the surfer, like, Shaka thing.

It clearly has been a really Long time since I held my hand up in with my fingers in some configuration at a concert.

No, the rocker emoji has always been. Or that, like the hand signal has always been you tuck your thumb in over your fingers. Yeah.

Okay, well, then not.

What is this? Like the shocker? Oh, no, no.

Maybe that was the Santa Cruz version. You know, it's like, like shocker, shock a punk rock.

So many things you can do with your hands. If you have not heard us talk about this yet. We love your reviews. They make us la. They make us smile. They make us feel so good.

Sometimes they make Vanessa cry.

They do. I very frequently cry receiving your feedback and it's wonderful. So we really thank you for taking the time to leave reviews and we do a weekly giveaway. Once you submit your review in Apple Podcasts, you are entered in the giveaway every week. Going forward. It's just a one and done kind of thing. If you are the winner, if we read your review out loud, then you can DM us on Instagram. Ennessamorrentherapy. Ask us a question, and we will give you a personalized coaching session, a little mini coaching session, absolutely free. So we really appreciate the time that it takes to write a review. We cannot tell you how helpful it is for helping the podcast grow and reach more people. And we also love this fun new twist that we've added on with trying to stump Xander with emojis. He's getting kind of good at it. So I think you guys have to, like, dig a little deeper. We've got to go for the really obscure ones.

Move away from, like, the hand signals and the faces into the, like things, the random things.

All right, so let's get into this week's episode. First of all, let's talk about what the heck is an open relationship.

That's a really good question. And I would venture a guess that most people who haven't really educated themselves on what open relationships are probably hear that and go, oh, yeah, that. That just kind of means that I go and sleep with whoever I want. And I maybe still have my partner, my girlfriend, my boyfriend, my wife, my husband, what, back at home. And, you know, we. We have a relationship and I just do whatever I want.

Yeah. There are a lot of misconceptions about open relationships, and I think that is one of the biggest ones. It's kind of this, like, have your cake and eat it too kind of mentality. We actually asked our Instagram audience, are you confused about open relationships? Like, what they are, how they work? 43% of people said yes. So almost half of our audience was like, how does this all work? And we specifically asked for people who are not in an open relationship. Like, is this causing confusion? So the basic idea behind an open relationship is that you are in some way intimate with another person. We kind of contrast this to monogamy, which most of us are familiar with. And no, I'd say all of us are familiar with. The idea behind monogamy is that there are two people in a relationship. You are being exclusive with each other, not intimate with any other person. And so open relationships or non monogamy means that there is some other person or persons involved in some other sort of way. And one of the key things to understand about open relationships is that there are so many different configurations. So we're going to talk about that a little bit more later in the episode. But it's not this, you know, this idea that there's just one way to do it, or it's this, you know, free for all, free for all, no rules whatsoever. There are a lot of different kinds of open relationships that fall under this very general umbrella of open or non monogamous. So there are a lot of different reasons why you would want to open up a relationship. I think a lot of times people in monogamous relationships just think like, well, like, why would you want to do that? I just don't understand it. So there are a ton of different reasons. So the very first one is just that the concept of monogamy doesn't fit for a lot of people. I think there are so many relationships that are monogamous that we sort of forget that there even are other options or other ways. And for a lot of people, the idea of being monogamous with one person and potentially for the rest of your life, it just doesn't feel authentic to them. It doesn't feel right. It just doesn't feel like, yeah, this is who I am, what I want to experience for my life.

Yeah, I think a lot of us choose to be in monogamous relationships.

We will get into that.

Yeah, like, like a lot of us choose that. But then there's also a lot of us who get into monogamous relationships because that's what society expects of us. And you may find once you start that monogamous relationship. Oh, yeah. You know, now that I'm all in on this, this does feel like the right thing for me. And then there are a lot of people as well who get into it because that's what they've Heard about that's what society expects. And then you get into it and all of a sudden it's like, wait, this doesn't really feel right.

One could be fulfillment. So maybe you're wanting to explore, express your sexuality outside of your relationship with your current partner. Maybe it's even something that your partner boundary against or something that they're not interested in doing. Could be just straight up excitement. This sounds exciting and interesting to you to explore. Could be wanting to explore more emotional connections too. I think a lot of times people make this assumption that open relationships are just about sex, but in actuality, a lot of it can be about that emotional connection.

It could also be about having more orgasms.

Who doesn't want that?

Yeah, why not? Or just more or better or different sexual experiences. Obviously with more people there's more opportunity to have more different experiences. And so for some people that might feel really important and for others that might feel less important. Could also be a better relationship for you and your current partner. Especially if you are able to fulfill certain needs or desires elsewhere. It could be a way to kind of save some really wonderful things that you do share with your current partner.

And I think that one traces back to like the philosophical idea of monogamy too. Like if you don't feel like monogamy is the right model for you, but you're forcing yourself to be in a monogamous relationship, how authentic or good or healthy is that relationship really going to be? So for some people, discovering non monogamy and making that switch is like, oh my God, like our relationship is so much better in this model of a relationship rather than monogamy.

Yeah, I feel like a really easy way to kind of conceptualize that one is let's just boil it down into really simplistic terms. Terms. Let's say there's 10 things that you need in a relationship to be happy and your current partner gives you eight of those things. And the other two, like they're just not able to meet those needs for some reason. But the other eight are so good and you're in a monogamous relationship, you're forced to choose between do I stay with them and forego these two for the rest of my life? Do I break up with them because these two feel like so important to me that I'm going to throw the other eight away or enter non monogamy? Is there a way to hold on to these eight really wonderful, loving, great things and also find a way to get these other two important things met? And then the Final reason you may love dating, you may love the chase, you may love that experience of kind of new relationship, new relationship energy. Yeah, I mean, you know, I can speak for myself. I hate dating. I absolutely hate dating. Vanessa and I started dating before online dating really was like, a socially acceptable thing. And, man, like, I just. I don't even know how I would. How I would fare out in the wild. I'm going to be totally honest here. However, I know plenty of people that do enjoy dating or kind of love the chase more than the. I don't know, what's the opposite of the chase? The catch.

So we asked our Instagram audience, are you in a consenting open relationship? And I think that's one other element that I really want to point out at the beginning here is that what we are talking about is consenting, or sometimes it's called ethical non monogamy. The idea here is not like, oh, my partner cheated on me, so we're in an open relationship.

No, no. Or like, I actively am with other people without my partner's knowledge. So therefore, we are. But I know I am, but my partner doesn't.

Yeah, no. What we are talking about in this episode is that you and your partner have constantly, consciously made the decision together to open up the relationship. So we just wanted to get a sense of how many people are in open relationships. So 9% of our respondents said that, yes, they were in an open relationship. But I gotta give the caveat here that we received more DMs from people saying, oh, my God, I responded the wrong thing than we have ever gotten before. And I gotta go on a quick little tangent about these Instagram polls here.

I was gonna make sure you had your spotlight, so.

My spotlight. Let me get onto my soapbox here. Okay, so the thing that I want you guys to know about Instagram polls, because we do a lot of them on our account, we love doing them. We think they're so interesting and fascinating. But the thing that you need to know about them is that once you submit your response to a poll, you are locked in. You can't change it and we can't change it. So when we get your DM saying, oh, my God, I accidentally hit yes, but I'm really a no. Like, we can't do anything about it. We can't change it.

We can't, like, look you up in the result.

I promise you, we are not looking through the results and being like, oh, my God, Gina. One, two, three is in an open relationship. Can you believe it?

Wow.

We're not. So we can't switch those results. So on the behalf of any creator that you follow on any social platform, please spare them the DM of oops, I did the wrong vote.

Yeah. Also, when we put up a poll, we're getting tens of thousands of responses. And let me just assure you, from a statistical perspective, you know, the one or two of you who hit the wrong button, you are not skewing the results. This is like a normal expected amount of error. There's statistical error in studies. Like, there's an expectation that things get messed up, data gets entered incorrectly, people do the wrong thing. Don't worry about it. It's all good.

It's all good. That being said, I just have to say this was the one that we've never gotten so many DMs, so I bet that the number might be a little bit smaller.

Yeah.

Because not a huge number.

Yeah. Because people read are you an economist? Consenting open relationship. And a lot of people skipped over the word open and thought they were saying, yes, I'm in a consenting relationship. Which is, which is interesting. Yeah. Are you in a non consenting relationship?

We also asked our audience, if you are in a monogamous relationship, did you consciously choose monogamy?

That's a good question.

I think that this is another really important point, that the vast majority of people are in monogamous relationships. We're so used to this idea that like, like that's what a relationship is. Two people that, I think so many people, one, don't even realize that there could be other options. But two, it's not like an active decision that they make. They're just sort of like, yeah, well, this is what we're supposed to do. This is what it has to look like. So only 48% of people said that, yes, they consciously chose monogamy. So that's like half of the respondents that we got. You got that 48% real close to half. Like that math there. Yeah. Really, I'm proud of you. You know, we hope that even if you feel like, oh, no, I could never be in an open relationship, that does not sound right for me. We hope that you at least take the time to kind of think about, well, what would that really be like for you? And why are you saying you're a hard. No. And would you consciously and thoughtfully choose monogamy as the right relationship model for you, as the relationship model that you want to pursue?

All right, so now the question that everybody wants to know, are Vanessa and I in an open Relationship.

I think a lot of people assume that we are.

Yeah, I do too. And I don't know why we don't. I don't think we really say anything that we're open minded.

I think that a lot of people assume because I'm a sex therapist and we have a sex therapy business together, that we're super wild and kinky and no holds barred, no rules, free for all.

Yeah, we have a sex dungeon, you know, in the basement that we don't have.

Yeah, we've got a little like hidey hole under the house.

Yeah, we've got like, you know, a four foot crawl space under the house.

It's all you need, babe.

Yeah, there's like a lot of dirt and insulation. It's real sexy.

So the answer is no, we are not in an open relationship. We did have a conversation. Actually, Xander has forgotten about this, but we did have a conversation kind of early into our relationship talking about, yeah, do we want to be monogamous? Is this what feels right to us?

Oh, good for us.

Yeah.

I don't remember. I was. When you said, you know, did you consciously choose monogamy? I was like, God, I'm not sure I did. I mean, I feel like I'm like one of those people I described a little while back where I was saying I kind of like, some people fall into monogamy and you know, once they're in it, after number of months, years, whatever, they're like, yeah, this is right for me. I mean, I kind of feel like I identify that way. Even though we clearly had a conversation. I don't remember.

That was a brief one, I think. But that being said, we have friends in open relationships, family members in open relationships, and a member of our team in an open relationship as well. So we've had a lot of experience professionally and personally talking about learning about open relationships. So we are gonna be sharing some of the tips that we have picked up along the way about the things that you need to have in place in order to open up your relationship in a healthy way. Let's jump right into number one, which is wanting to do it for the right reasons.

Because there are absolutely wrong reasons.

Yeah, we're think about like the Bachelor of Bachelorette, like, are you here for the right reasons? So wait, how?

It's like, I think I know what the right reasons are. No one really ever told me what they are. The wrong reasons. Kind of nebulous too, like, but social media fame, that's their social media fame.

Yeah, you're thinking about a Different dating show. So I have coached a lot of couples through opening up their relationships and this really is the first place to start. I always tell people, like it's important when you're opening up your relationship. You have to have a philosophical belief in the idea that non monogamy is the right model for you. And this idea that like, yeah, this is what's going to feel more authentic, more fulfilling, more real to me. Being in some sort of open or non monogamous relationship.

Yeah. Almost like a mission statement for like what you are trying to accomplish. Like you, you and you know, if you're more business y minded.

Yeah.

A mission statement for you and your partner. Like what are you trying to achieve in, in opening up your relationship? I think it will be if you go through that exercise of like, what is that for each of you? It would could be pretty eye opening, pretty easy to tell if you're kind of doing it for the right or the wrong reasons.

Unfortunately, the reality has been with the vast majority of the couples that I've worked with, people wanted to open their relationship for the wrong reasons. And the number one wrong reason of wrong reasons is an attempt to like save the current relationship. Oh, things are so crappy between us. Let's just open it up or I hate our sex life. It's so bad. Let's other people.

Yeah. So when you say to save our relationship, usually it's because something in the sex department usually is going wrong, right?

Yeah, yeah. Very often like your partner isn't meeting your needs in some way but you just, you don't want to talk about it, you don't want to work on it. Sometimes also like just not wanting to commit to your current partner. So I want to be really careful and say like it's not that people who are in non monogamous or open relationships are all just a bunch of commitment phobes. I think that is definitely a stereotype or a judgment that gets made. Absolutely. That is not the case. But I do think there sometimes are people who want to open up their relationship because some sort of fear of intimacy or commitment does come up for them.

Yeah, it's probably sort of like a bad combination of being commitment phobic and also being a people pleaser. Like you get into a relationship with someone and you really want to please them, you really want to make them happy and you're also scared of commitment. That's probably something that you might want to work on in therapy.

Yeah. So number one flows very nicely into number two, which is that your Current relationship should be in a good place. So again, opening up the relationship is not the way to save the relationship. It's sort of like, like sometimes you hear people like want to have a baby to save their relationship and you're like, oh no, no, no. Like bringing a child into an already fraught, difficult, bad relationship, that's not going to save it, it's going to make it worse and it's going to be unfair to the child in the same sort of way it's unfair to this other person that you might potentially be bringing in, even if it's just in a very casual way.

Yeah. Like opening up your relationship takes work, it takes effort. It's going to be challenging. Like there are going to be rewards and payoffs if you' it for the right reasons and you're willing to put in that work. But it is going to be an uphill climb at the beginning of it. It's kind of like, let's say that like you're going on vacation but like you can't fly there. You have to drive. It's like 40 hour drive. You're going to be driving for multiple days. You're not just going to be like tomorrow I'm going to wake up and be sitting on the beach sipping margaritas. It's like, no, I'm going to be sweaty in the car for the next like four days driving. Do I really want to drive for four days if I'm only going to sit on the beach for two days? Like maybe that doesn't make so much sense.

Yeah. So yeah, you just want to make sure that your relationship is in a good place. This is kind of like a good to great situation, not a bad to good situation. So you really want to be both you and your partner need to really be willing and interested in pursuing an open relationship. That, I mean, I think that's another dynamic too is not that there's this imbalance between one partner really, really, really wants to do it and the other partner really, really, really doesn't want to. But maybe they're trying to save the relationship or like I'll take you in whatever way I can get you kind of a thing.

Yeah. So I mean that that's a great example of how it could very easily be. One person may be doing it for the right reasons. They may disagree with monogamy. They may have have some really good reasons for wanting to get into a monogamous relationship. The other person may be doing it for the wrong reasons. So in this case, the other person may Be like, I really don't want to be in a. In a non monogamous relationship. That doesn't feel good to me. But I'm really scared of losing my partner. And so they're pushing for this, so I'm going to go along with it so that I don't lose them. That would be a very wrong reason for doing it because. Because, spoiler alert. Six months from now after starting to get into this, you're not going to be happier if you already know it doesn't feel good to do that.

All right, number three is that you and your current partner are great communicators. Great in all caps, double underlined here. So I think one of the things that people don't understand about open relationships is that communication is non negotiable. It is an essential part of opening up your relationship in a healthy and happy way.

I think a lot of people, you know, if you know a little bit about open relationships, maybe you think that you will get into one where it's like, don't ask, don't tell, you don't talk about anything. And there is definitely, like, that is a type of arrangement that you could have, but that is a very challenging type of arrangement because, yeah, you can not talk about certain things. But, like, you know, if you're dating other people, like, your partner's gonna notice, like, oh, I'm gonna be out of the house tonight, and I'm not telling you what I'm doing. Like, you might think up front, oh, yeah, we can avoid communicating about this, but then try to think through, like, what is it actually gonna be? Like, you know, you're gonna need to talk about it. You're gonna set boundaries on what level of detail you talk about things in. But you're gonna need to acknowledge the fact that you're in an open relationship and be able to communicate about what's going on for each of you.

Mm. And so that kind of goes into, like, number four. You have to have. Have a lot of space because open relationships are not easy. They take a lot of work. There's more communication involved. There are more feelings involved. There are more people involved, there's more time involved.

Yeah, I was gonna say. Yeah. Just the logistical aspect. Even if it's, you're, you know, even if you're only dating one more person, that's like one more person to talk on the phone with, to send text messages back and forth with, to think about, to buy presents for, to go out on dates with, to go on vacation with. Like, it's A lot.

It's a lot. So you gotta have the space for that. Number five. You are willing to address jealousy.

This is a big one.

Oh, yeah. So I once heard somebody talk about, like, monogamous versus open relationships. Each have their core challenge. With monogamous relationships, the core challenge is boredom, because you're with that same one person for potentially the rest of your life. And for open relationships, that challenge is jealousy. So it's sort of like a choose your adventure here. Like, which one do you think you're going to be more open to dealing with? Which one might be a little bit easier for you to deal with? They're both going to be challenging. They're both going to take some work. But which one are you willing to take on?

I mean, I think the interesting thing about jealousy, especially in monogamous relationships, I think that there might be sort of this assumption if we do monogamy. Right. Jealousy is an emotion that we should never need to feel. And so we're almost like, uniquely unprepared to deal with to address jealousy because we are so used to being like, high school or whatever. You've probably had tons of jealousy.

Oh, yeah.

And then it's like, okay, I've gotten into a relationship. We're married, we're committed. Oh, thank God I never have to be jealous again. But I think the reality with jealousy is jealousy is an emotion that comes up kind of regardless, just in different areas of our life. And the idea shouldn't be that, like. Like, we just run away from jealousy. It's something that's coming up for us, and it's something that's worth investigating.

I mean, I do think people in monogamous relationships definitely experience jealousy, but I think people in open relationships experience so much more of it because there's just more involved, you know, Like, I mean, so think about it right now as you're listening to this. What would it really be like to know that your partner is being intimate with somebody else else? To know that they're kissing somebody else, to know that they're having sex, however you guys define sex with somebody else? To know that they're waking up the next morning with somebody else, to know that they're developing feelings or even in love with somebody else? And this is what we mean about. There are so many different configurations that an open relationship can take on. Some of these things may be on or off the table, but I do think it's important to think through what's that going to feel like for you? But I think the great Thing that the open relationship community does is really normalizing jealousy and saying, like, look, it's okay to feel jealous. It's understandable to feel jealous. That doesn't make you, like, bad at open relationships or anything like that. But you do need to have this, like, willingness or this commitment to work through your jealousy and to take a look at, like, what insecurities does it stir up about you or about your relationship? One particular dynamic that we've heard about a lot of is this imbalance that can happen when you initially open up the relationship. So the people that we know that have been in open relationships have pretty much the majority of them have been, like, male, female pairings. And so they will each get on dating apps and the woman just immediately will find people to hook up with to date, whereas the guy tends to take a lot longer to find somebody. So it's like, right off the bat, you know, you're so excited about, like, okay, we're doing this, we're opening it up. And it's like, whoa, my partner is getting all the attention and I'm getting none. It can be pretty intense.

Yeah. I mean, and even if that's not your configuration or if that's not your experience, it's very likely that one partner will just inherently have some more success earlier on than the other. Like, it's not going to be an equal. Okay, great. We both got a date on Friday and it's going to go exactly the same.

Exactly. All right. The sixth thing that you need to open up your relationship is you gotta be great at boundaries. So this is interesting. I think a lot of people hear open relationship, and like we were saying earlier, there's this, like, idea that it's, oh, it's just a free for all. Just fuck whoever you want and do whatever you want. It's like relationship anarchy.

Actually, I would venture a guess to say being in an open relationship, there are more rules and guidelines to follow than there are in a marriage, monogamous relationship.

Absolutely. I don't think that's necessarily that, like, people in open relationships are, like, stricter or whatever. I think it's because they are really good at understanding boundaries and being nuanced and explicit about boundaries. I think they are kind of light years ahead of many of us monogamous relationship folks, where boundaries just aren't something that we, like, talk about that openly or are that explicit with.

Yeah, I mean, because, like, in a monogamous relationship, you just have some fairly basic, basic boundaries.

Don't fuck somebody else.

You have some basic Boundaries. And then it's like, obviously, you know, if you break the boundary of being intimate with somebody else, then there's all these other boundaries that you could break. But you're gonna break the first boundary first.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, we don't need to set all these successive boundaries because it's like there's only one boundary that you break before, and then there's all these other ones.

Yeah. So, like, when you're deciding to open up your relationship, you're gonna want to create boundaries around things that, like, okay, well, what's the timeline of this? What activities are on or off the table? Are we dating other people? Are we allowing feelings? Are we allowing entirely separate relationships? Or is this just sexual? It's just allowed to hook up only one time, never a second time. Is it kissing's off the table? Is it intercourses off the table? Is it sleeping overs off the table? Like, there are so many different possibilities. And that has been the most successful open relationships that I've seen is when the couple got really clear with each other beforehand. Like, very detailed about, this is on the table, this is off the table.

And I would imagine that after doing that initial exercise, that you continue to check in about that over time. Because there's no way to know that we set these rules once, and then we're good with them forever. Yeah. Yeah. You know, your thinking might change. Your feelings might change over time. You might need to roll some of them back. Back. Or you might want to kind of open some more of them up.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also a piece here around, like, respecting those boundaries too. It's one thing to say, okay, no sleepovers are allowed, but then to be in the moment to, like, have just had great sex with somebody, you're really tired. You're so cozy and intimate and sweet, like, cuddling each other. To, like, have to have the energy and the willpower to say, you know what? No, this is a boundary that my partner and I have. You gotta go. You know, it takes a lot. So being able to uphold those boundaries.

Yeah. And on the flip side of that, it's that the other person needs to be able to enforce boundaries that may get broken. And, you know, having a clear punishment isn't the right word, but, like, having there be clear consequences for boundaries being broken, and then somebody who's willing to enforce that boundary and the punishment is.

That you have to go into our sex basement dungeon.

Yeah. They see. The really kinky thing is that the further back you get towards the back of our house, the lower the ceiling gets, so, you know, it gets maybe like 1 or 2ft tall. It's a little.

That's pretty kinky.

Little sexy box back there.

All right, number seven, we've talked about a little bit, but it's this idea that you and your partner need to be on the same page about what open means means. We've talked about how there are tons of different configurations, rules, boundaries, guidelines that you guys can have involving, like, different people, whether it's feelings, whether it's being physical, the number of people, all kinds of stuff. So you and your partner need to do some research on what the possibilities are, what the options are, and make sure that you both agree on the particular configuration that you both want. So, again, it's not this free for all.

Yeah. And I think the most important thing here is to. That if we had this nice menu of, like, here are all the possible options on the table, and let's say each of you kind of fill that out in terms of, like, what would feel right to you. It's almost certain that you're going to have slightly different or maybe even very different answers. And probably in this case, like, I mean, as a therapist, Vanessa, I would imagine that you'd probably recommend to people that, like, you're going to have to at least start the person with the sort of, like, most conservative of responses to what. What is and isn't on the table. Right?

Yeah, I think so. In general, that is advice that we give, like, the person who has the most boundaries or the most sense of, you know, concern that, like, start with them first. Like, ease into it.

And if you were to find your idea of an open relationship is grossly different, one partner wants, like, everything on the table, and the other partner wants, like, almost everything off the table, then, like, maybe that's also not. Not a great idea to one, get into an open relationship. Or maybe that's not the right person to get into an open relationship with.

All right, that takes us to number eight, which is that you have done, are doing, and will continue to put in the work.

The work in quotes.

So, again, this huge misconception about open relationships is just that they're, you know, you do whatever you want, and it's fun and easy and free. And the reality is that being in an open relationship, sure, it absolutely can be very fun and really fulfilling in a way that monogamy maybe can't be for you. And it's also a whole lot of work.

So it's not just a lot of work up front. That's, I think, another misconception.

Yeah. Continue to be.

It's like, oh, God, we're really struggling right now to figure out, like, what the bounds of our relationship is. But, you know, once we get that figured out and once we kind of start seeing other people get, it's. It's going to be smooth sailing. Like, no, there's going to be always things that come up. And I think what, you know, when you, like, see some mountains on the horizon, you can only see, like, the first hill. And, like, once you get over that hill, then you very often see, oh, there's like, a bunch of stuff beyond that. And I think that's a lot of people's experience is like, they see what their biggest blockage is. They finally figure out how to get through that blockage, only to realize that there's, like, three more that they didn't even see because it was being blocked by whatever blockage they just dealt with.

Blocked by the blockage. Yeah. Questions will continue to come up, up. Your boundaries will shift. A new person might come into your lives. That kind of rattles you to the core a little bit. Like, things are just going to change, and you have to be willing to continue putting in that work to, you know, have this healthy relationship. So we definitely recommend seeing a great therapist if you have a therapist who is in open relationship themselves or at the very least, is knowledgeable about it, because you can definitely find therapists who are judgmental about this or, you know, will encourage you to close your relationship and do not go there. So you want to make sure that you have somebody who's at least educated.

Yeah, I mean, I think definitely you want someone that specializes in seeing couples in open relationships, because. Yeah. I mean, the reality is there is a lot of judgment around open relationships. And I think there's also one of those things where it's becoming more and more common. So, like, people who are younger tend to probably look a bit more favorably on open relationships because it's is just getting more common. But people who are of an older generation perhaps just, like, haven't seen this at all in their past. And so, you know, this type of thing takes some experience working with before you start to feel comfortable with it.

Yeah. And also, like, trying to find friends or community who are also in open relationships. So you can talk to other people who have, like, gone through it, who might be able to answer questions that come up for you. Like. Like, that can be so, so valuable. All right, number nine, we cannot end this episode without talking about safe sex. Safe sex is always important. But of course, if you're bringing in more people into the relationship, there are more risks.

Yeah. Like, don't skip over this one people, because you might hear safe sex and think, oh, they're just giving their spiel where it's like, wear a condom. But they're actually like, there is some nuance in this one, especially in an open relationship that is really important. Important.

Yeah. So, I mean, there's things like testing frequency, you guys having conversations with the people that you're being intimate with. Like, you know, really upfront and open conversations about what is your STI status, what are we going to do to have safe sex and to decrease the risk as much as possible. There's making specific plans for preventing pregnancy, if that is a possibility in any of your arrangements. Having contraception, like, lots of different stuff to consider.

And there can also be an emotional aspect to the kind of safety or contraception thing here where, you know, a lot of people feel like not using a condom is more intimate than. Than using one. And so, safety aside, you and your partner may feel like, we always want to make sure outside of our own primary relationship, we use a condom because it doesn't feel comfortable that, like, that you would maybe not use one with someone even if you could somehow assure that you're not going to get anything.

And let's not even get into what that's.

Let's just say this magical place where STIs do not exist, which is not real.

All right. And our 10th and final point that we want to talk about. This is actually something that our employee who is in an open relationship brought up. And it's something that I haven't really ever thought about myself personally. So I'm really glad that they brought this up. So the idea was that you've disentangled from your current partner. Monogamy can. For some people, it can bring up some codependency or some enmeshment where that kind of means, like, the boundaries between the two of you get a little bit blurry because it's just the two of you. You know, we're taught to really romanticize relationships of this, like, two becoming one. Can you sing that?

We complete each other's sentences. I. I was about to jump. I was about to jump in and say, we complete each other's sentences. And then, of course, the thing that I'm gonna say that after is Vanessa asking me to sing a song that I don't know when to become one.

Wow.

So I know the words. I don't. I don't know the tune. I. I can't place it in my mind. So when to become one. I do know those words.

I was extremely tone deaf. We were actually.

But should we finish each other's sentences?

Yes. Quick little tangent here. We actually went to go see Xander's grandma in her senior citizen facility yesterday, and she was telling us when she was a young girl, she was told that she was absolutely tone deaf. So maybe it's genetic.

Actually, she was told you should never sing.

Yeah. And they told her to sing or at least mouth the words in choir.

At least that's what she heard. And that's sad.

Anyways, didn't think we'd be talking about your grandma today. An open relationships podcast. But, yes, going back to this, our employee was saying, you know, that it can be really helpful to just have. Have this focus on building up your individuality. And this could even be like, a transition point between being in a closed relationship into going into an open one. Or maybe it's when you're in between relationships, but really focusing on building your individual life, having hobbies, people you see outside of your partner, your relationship, practicing, like, being on your own and getting comfortable with yourself, and even practicing this idea of dating yourself within your partnership, like, carving out time for yourself and creating, like, individuality. And I think that can actually be one of the challenges in open relationships. Like, we talked about how much more time and energy and effort they take. It can be even harder to carve out space for yourself. So getting started early on with that idea of, like, really protecting this time for yourself can be very beneficial.

I think a lot of us think, oh, like a relationship with myself. What is that? Like, you know, I got a wife, I got kids, I got, you know, I got no time for that. What?

Just took a drink or something. I'm going. Spewed it all over the microphone. Why does that sound like some, like, 1950s. Like, I got a kid, I got a wife.

I mean, I got to. I got to change my voice a little bit because I don't have kids. So, you know, I'm trying to be someone else.

Like a 1950s husband.

I'm just like that guy who, hey, I got a wife, I got a kid. What am I going to do? But no, anyway, I digress. What I'm trying to say.

Xander's relationship with himself is like, Xander and 1950s Xander, they have a relationship.

Yeah. What I'm trying to say is that it's important if you're gonna be going out and going on dates with other people, being intimate with other people, having other people in your life, it's really important that you are comfortable on your own because like, who are you gonna show up as on a date? Like, are you gonna show like partner to this other person? Like, I, I don't think that's really a recipe for success. Being out there and forming a relationship with, with someone else and you know, with maybe the exception would be in more of like a polyamorous type of situation where maybe like the relationships come with you possibly otherwise it's like you need to be able to be your own person to be able to show up and be successful in a non monogamous relationship. And also the other thing, if you're like still having trouble with that, think about it this way. Like, if in an open relationship there are going to be times where your partner is out with someone else out, maybe they end up, you know, having a serious like secondary partner. They're out with them. You're going to be, you know, if you're not out on a date with somebody else, you're going to have to be okay, like being alone. You're going to have to be comfortable with like, what does my life look like on my own? What are the things that I do? Because if you were just sitting around at home, like looking at your watch, waiting for your partner to get home, you're going to be pretty miserable.

All right, so that wraps up our 10 things that you need to have to successfully open up your relationship. So we hope that this has given you some really practical and actionable tips to put into use, some questions to ask yourself. And again, we really invite everyone to consider, like, what is the right relationship model for me? Rather than feeling like you have to default to monogamy, we talked a lot about the fact that a lot of people want to open up their relationships for the wrong reasons for like, like saving a bad relationship or having a bad sex life. So we just wanted to point out one little product of ours that you might enjoy if your sex life in your relationship has not been very exciting. And that's what's making you think about the potential excitement of hooking up with other people.

Then one, try this out.

Try this out first.

Yeah, this is maybe a better thing to try first.

So we have our 30 day sex challenge. And how it works is that every day for 30 days you get an email on with a sensual and a sexual challenge and you get to pick which one sounds. What are you doing Xander just, like, put his finger in his mouth. Like, are you trying to be all sexy?

Oh, no, I'm trying to be sensual, baby.

Oh. Or were you just trying to fish something out of your tooth? It was really cute.

No, it was neither. I don't have anything stuck in my teeth. I wasn't actually trying to be sexy. But maybe I will try to do that more during these podcasts and see if I can distract you.

It worked. It worked very well. Anyways, so you get two different challenges. One of them is more like communication, foreplay, touch based, and then the other one is more explicitly sexual. Now, I can't even tell you the faces that he's making at me. Now, the other one's more explicitly sexual, but it is not always intercourse. Very important, because intercourse is not the only thing that counts as sex. So you get to choose which one sounds the most exciting to you that day or do both. It's a really great way to bring the spark back into your relationship to have some more excitement with each other.

Other.

And even if you do decide that you want to be in an open relationship, which is awesome and great, and we hope that we've given you the tools for that, this could still be a really great way to connect before embarking on this new adventure in your relationship. So we will put a link to check that out in the show notes.

Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about how to have the best relationship yet in 2022.

Oh, well, see you next year, guys. 2022.

She coming.